:00:00. > :00:07.It's that time again - the Iowa rush - 48 hours of global
:00:08. > :00:12.And what is, this year, the wackiest presidential
:00:13. > :00:26.We've been on the campaign trail with Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio and
:00:27. > :00:30.Donald Trump. We discuss whether what happens here tonight will
:00:31. > :00:31.dictate the schisms of American politics on the right for years to
:00:32. > :00:45.come. The smugglers give you your boat,
:00:46. > :00:48.give a ten-minute training and a refugee has to man the boat and
:00:49. > :00:50.bring it over here. People are completely left to their own devices
:00:51. > :00:53.in the dark. Tory MP Heidi Allen
:00:54. > :00:55.in Greece and in the studio. We'll ask her - is the Government
:00:56. > :00:59.right to refuse to take in refugee children if they're
:01:00. > :01:07.already in Europe? I never break the law. We have to be
:01:08. > :01:13.very clear about that. I never break the law. I just stretch it a bit.
:01:14. > :01:16.And MPs report on the collapse of Kids Company.
:01:17. > :01:28.It's the people of Iowa - 1% of the US population -
:01:29. > :01:32.who get first dibs on choosing the presidential candidates for each
:01:33. > :01:35.party, and they're making their selection tonight.
:01:36. > :01:37.For the Democrats they do it rather well.
:01:38. > :01:40.In recent decades, their choice of Democrat has turned out to be
:01:41. > :01:44.the ultimate candidate about three quarters of the time.
:01:45. > :01:47.Iowa's not a great predictor of Republican nominations though.
:01:48. > :01:50.It gets the final candidate less than half the time.
:01:51. > :01:54.But never mind that, that's the contest everyone
:01:55. > :02:07.I guess only a fool would leave one general election where the polls got
:02:08. > :02:12.things so wrong and immediately start making predictions about the
:02:13. > :02:17.next, but as things stand, the Des Moines register, the local paper,
:02:18. > :02:20.perhaps the most trusted pollsters on the ground here, are suggesting a
:02:21. > :02:24.comfortable lead for Donald Trump on the Republican side. Now on the
:02:25. > :02:28.Democrat side, it's less clear. Hillary Clinton has been neck and
:02:29. > :02:33.neck with Bernie Sanders, who has crept up on her and let's be honest,
:02:34. > :02:37.on us, in the last month. What will swing things for both these
:02:38. > :02:42.challengers, the outsiders tonight, is how many new comers actually show
:02:43. > :02:47.up to caucus and caucusing is a long and it can be a cold and dreary
:02:48. > :02:50.process. The weather today has been extraordinarily mild, which may
:02:51. > :02:56.encourage more people out than usual. Tonight, we've been exploring
:02:57. > :03:02.the battle for the heart and soul of American politics on the right, the
:03:03. > :03:07.Republican party feels like it's being pulled one way by staunch aye
:03:08. > :03:10.Diyalogs and the other by the larger than life characters and the
:03:11. > :03:15.moderates are lost in the middle. We've been on the trail with the
:03:16. > :03:18.front runner here, Ted Cruz, the Texas centre. We began our --
:03:19. > :03:22.senator. We began our journey there. This is what Texas looks
:03:23. > :03:25.like when it lets its hair down. It's a side of the Lone
:03:26. > :03:28.Star State you don't often see, but once a year
:03:29. > :03:30.Galveston, on the Gulf of Mexico, bursts into ten days of carnival,
:03:31. > :03:33.bringing some 300,000 people out But this time around even
:03:34. > :03:37.Mardi Gras faces stiff For sheer colour, excitement
:03:38. > :03:43.and unpredictability, well, nothing beats the Republican
:03:44. > :03:47.race for President. There's only one person
:03:48. > :03:50.and that's the Donald. Because he has the
:03:51. > :03:59.vision for America. He's going to tell the people
:04:00. > :04:01.what he's going to do, Finally, we get someone
:04:02. > :04:06.that's not a politician - Because he tells it
:04:07. > :04:17.like it is, he's honest. To those on the right who feel
:04:18. > :04:20.America has lost its way, become too liberal, too politically
:04:21. > :04:23.correct or just too broken, Please welcome the next President
:04:24. > :04:32.of the United States, And whilst it's hard to know
:04:33. > :04:37.whether Trump is the symptom or the cause, his presence
:04:38. > :04:40.is ripping the grand old party The Republican Party itself
:04:41. > :04:44.is in the midst of an identity There is deep mistrust
:04:45. > :04:53.of the institutions it espouses, government corporations, banks,
:04:54. > :04:56.and of the people at its helm, the Bushs, the Romneys,
:04:57. > :04:58.the Ryans, who are seen as too So the GOP's unenviable
:04:59. > :05:04.choice at this point is between a candidate
:05:05. > :05:08.hell-bent on destroying the party from within, and a candidate that
:05:09. > :05:14.they pretty universally despise. That latter figure
:05:15. > :05:17.is the Texas Senator, fiercely intelligent, with an appeal
:05:18. > :05:22.to the evangelical right. He's been neck and neck
:05:23. > :05:25.with Trump in Iowa. He prides himself on being
:05:26. > :05:28.the one Washington hates. We're at the edge of a cliff,
:05:29. > :05:30.and if we keep going another four or eight more years,
:05:31. > :05:34.we risk doing irreparable damage to the greatest country
:05:35. > :05:36.in the history of Ted Cruz appealed to this crowd
:05:37. > :05:41.by telling them that Ronald Reagan was the candidate
:05:42. > :05:43.that Washington hated. He said, "Don't trust any candidate
:05:44. > :05:50.that tells you Washington's Yet this is a man who
:05:51. > :05:57.worked for the Supreme Court, worked for Bush,
:05:58. > :05:59.has attended the establishment in the form of Harvard
:06:00. > :06:01.and Princeton. He calls himself
:06:02. > :06:04.the antiestablishment candidate, and yet, some would say,
:06:05. > :06:07.he is very firmly part of it. He perhaps lacks some
:06:08. > :06:09.of the interpersonal skills that Although family members, as we know,
:06:10. > :06:14.can be notorious tricky to tame. On a one-to-one basis,
:06:15. > :06:18.I am very fond of Ted, but I think his public persona,
:06:19. > :06:22.on the campaign trail, a lot of people find
:06:23. > :06:25.off-putting, because So adamant about his positions,
:06:26. > :06:31.and he's reflecting the anger He was running for Congress
:06:32. > :06:40.at the same time Cruz He's a guy that you wouldn't
:06:41. > :06:45.necessarily want to go down the pub in England and have a point
:06:46. > :06:49.with, but if you want him on your side - as a fighter -
:06:50. > :06:52.you definitely would engage him. Those who engage with him
:06:53. > :06:55.are predominantly those The anger of the most pessimistic
:06:56. > :07:05.here are the ones we used to call middle Americans -
:07:06. > :07:09.the middle-aged, middle-class, neither rich nor poor,
:07:10. > :07:12.you can measure their pessimism in the polls when you ask
:07:13. > :07:15.them about their expectations for their lives and
:07:16. > :07:17.for their children. It's those blue-collar,
:07:18. > :07:21.white workers who normally express In Texas that anger is intensified,
:07:22. > :07:26.by a sense that Washington's doing Bob, a retired dentist,
:07:27. > :07:30.now breeds Texas Longhorns. He thinks the party has
:07:31. > :07:38.squandered its power. The way the vote has
:07:39. > :07:40.gone in Congress, since we have a Republican
:07:41. > :07:43.majority in Congress, they just don't seem to be doing
:07:44. > :07:46.the job that we thought they were going to do
:07:47. > :07:48.when they were elected. And so, there's a lot
:07:49. > :07:51.of the crossing over between, crossing over between the lines,
:07:52. > :07:54.that I don't think the Republicans We leave Texas and head
:07:55. > :08:09.for the snowy plains of Iowa, and I start to understand the scale
:08:10. > :08:13.of the party's dilemma. Republicans control
:08:14. > :08:17.the vast majority of legislative posts in this country,
:08:18. > :08:20.as well as the Senate and Congress, yet they don't feel
:08:21. > :08:23.they have control. They see the country
:08:24. > :08:26.moving to the left - gay marriage, Obamacare,
:08:27. > :08:30.the softening towards Iran. They're scared, and they're divided
:08:31. > :08:35.on how to get it back. We had this idea that
:08:36. > :08:38.you had the establishment on one hand, and the
:08:39. > :08:40.base on the other. There's the ideological conservative
:08:41. > :08:45.base, and that is what Ted Cruz Then there's the base that has been
:08:46. > :08:51.tapped into by Donald Trump, and by Sarah Pailin
:08:52. > :08:53.before him, which is much more about attitudes,
:08:54. > :08:56.about wanting to return to the past, about resentment
:08:57. > :08:59.of social change, and that is not something that's really based
:09:00. > :09:01.on conservative policy views, People have a right to be angry,
:09:02. > :09:09.but anger alone is not And don't write off
:09:10. > :09:13.the establishment friendly Marco Rubio, making a dig
:09:14. > :09:18.here at his angry rivals. Mainstream conservatives are looking
:09:19. > :09:24.to him to unify the party, but it's a big weight for relatively
:09:25. > :09:26.small shoulders. There's a sense the flicker
:09:27. > :09:29.of hope right now comes not from the prospective present,
:09:30. > :09:31.but from ghosts of the past. In his inaugural
:09:32. > :09:35.address, another Texas son, one George Herbert Walker Bush
:09:36. > :09:38.spoke of a thousand points of light, the old ideas,
:09:39. > :09:42.he said, are new again It was a speech of community,
:09:43. > :09:47.of cohesion, a very different rhetoric from the kind
:09:48. > :09:50.we are hearing from Donald Trump or Ted Cruz today,
:09:51. > :09:53.who speak of exclusion, History may come to regard
:09:54. > :09:59.the result tonight as a mere footnote, but that wider question,
:10:00. > :10:06.whether the party can heal itself or must divide in two, well that may
:10:07. > :10:11.not fade so fast. Eights' unpick a few of those ideas.
:10:12. > :10:14.# With me now is the Washington Post's
:10:15. > :10:17.political correspondent and lead reporter on the Clinton
:10:18. > :10:23.campaign, Anne Gearan. We start by looking at what you
:10:24. > :10:25.think is at the heart of this struggle in the Republican Party
:10:26. > :10:30.now. Do you think the fractions are there to stay? The fractions are
:10:31. > :10:35.much more on display in this cycle and right here in Iowa than they
:10:36. > :10:40.have been in a while. The underlying divisions have been there for a long
:10:41. > :10:44.time. There is a war within the Republican Party that has been there
:10:45. > :10:50.in varying degrees through the last few cycles. We've seen it with the
:10:51. > :11:00.Tea Party phenomenon. We've always seen it in Iowa, where there is a
:11:01. > :11:02.dispour portionately -- disproportionately conservative,
:11:03. > :11:06.Republican base and a democratic one. What's interesting from the
:11:07. > :11:12.outside, we always think of religion playing a key role in US elections,
:11:13. > :11:15.this time, here in Iowa, even with the evangelical vote being so
:11:16. > :11:21.strong, it looks like Donald Trump may have the upper hand. Yes, Donald
:11:22. > :11:24.Trump has never been a favourite of religious conservatives. But he's
:11:25. > :11:27.claiming that mantle now, which is very interesting, since there are
:11:28. > :11:32.two other Republicans in the race, Ted Cruz and Mike Huckerbee who are
:11:33. > :11:40.creatures this afternoon very part of the Republican party and have
:11:41. > :11:45.actually three, Rick Santorum is still in the race, each of them can
:11:46. > :11:49.claim the mantle of evangelical favourite. However, Donald Trump is
:11:50. > :11:54.running ahead of them and has been for the most part here for months.
:11:55. > :12:01.So that's actually one thing that a lot of Republicans are watching, is
:12:02. > :12:07.this election the end of the evangelical Christian dominance of
:12:08. > :12:12.the Iowa caucuses. The more favoured candidate is Marco Rubio, possibly
:12:13. > :12:17.Jeb Bush. Can Marco Rubio come through maybe from third place here
:12:18. > :12:20.and still become the nominee? Yeah, as you know, one thing, The
:12:21. > :12:24.interesting thing about Iowa is that the person who places second or
:12:25. > :12:27.third often is really judged the winner, because of the way the
:12:28. > :12:37.caucuses work and the expectations that they set up. So if is as we
:12:38. > :12:40.expect a close contest between Cruz and Trump at the top, whoever is
:12:41. > :12:45.number three, will be able to say it's two races, it's those guys and
:12:46. > :12:50.then it's the establishment candidates and I, whoever the person
:12:51. > :12:55.is that is number three, have the establishment mantle. Rubio would
:12:56. > :13:00.very much like it to be him. I think Jeb is too far down for it to be
:13:01. > :13:04.him. One thing that would stop us dead is if Bernie Sanders wins here
:13:05. > :13:10.tonight against Hillary, could he? He could win here. It's looking less
:13:11. > :13:15.likely that he does than a week or ten days ago, when he was running
:13:16. > :13:19.ahead of her outside the margin of error in most polls. Now he is even
:13:20. > :13:24.with her, slightly ahead in one or two polls. She's slightly ahead in
:13:25. > :13:28.the most recent gold standard poll, but still within the margin of
:13:29. > :13:32.error. They are neck and neck. He's taunted young people in his crowds
:13:33. > :13:34.by saying, we can prove the pollsters wrong. They say young
:13:35. > :13:38.people don't come out to vote, you can. Do you think he'll get the new
:13:39. > :13:43.comers in bigger numbers than anyone can imagine? He will definitely get
:13:44. > :13:48.a lot of new comers. He's banking on getting enough to really change the
:13:49. > :13:52.dynamic that seems to be set, where Clinton has a better, more
:13:53. > :13:56.organised, more established operation here, which historically
:13:57. > :14:01.has been the key to actually making it work on caucus night. It's a
:14:02. > :14:06.labour-intensive process. It's a very organisation-heavy process.
:14:07. > :14:10.It's a hands-on process, where each campaign calls people over and over
:14:11. > :14:14.and over again, drives them to the caucus, stands outside the caucus
:14:15. > :14:18.doors, tries to ensure that their people gets in there. That takes a
:14:19. > :14:22.lot of people, volunteers. It usually takes a lot of older,
:14:23. > :14:26.established Democrats that are willing to do that. That's not what
:14:27. > :14:31.Sanders has in numbers right now. Great to have you here, thank you
:14:32. > :14:35.very much indeed for your thoughts. It is a complicated business that
:14:36. > :14:40.lies ahead of us, both the counting and indeed the caucusing itself. We
:14:41. > :14:44.go from here to a rural farmhouse in Iowa, where we're invited into a
:14:45. > :14:48.home to watch the Democrats caucus there. It could take a few minutes,
:14:49. > :14:53.but it's more likely to take several hours. A snowstorm is forecast for
:14:54. > :14:57.later tonight. We'll see just how many people turn out. From there,
:14:58. > :15:01.Donald Trump is holding a celebration Iowa caucus party. If he
:15:02. > :15:04.doesn't win, that all becomes a bit more problematic. We'll have a
:15:05. > :15:08.better sense of that this time tomorrow.
:15:09. > :15:14.Back in Europe, a process not quite as lengthy as the US presidential
:15:15. > :15:16.selection, but that looks every bit as carefully stage-managed,
:15:17. > :15:24.It takes us from potential president, Donald Trump,
:15:25. > :15:26.to the less colourful EU Council president,
:15:27. > :15:30.He's said he'll table proposals tomorrow noon,
:15:31. > :15:32.after a lot of talking in recent days.
:15:33. > :15:33.Does that mean it's settled?
:15:34. > :15:37.It's really hard to know what's real and what is expectation management.
:15:38. > :15:40.But broadly, the rule is that the odds are against us,
:15:41. > :15:41.and the situation is grim, but magically,
:15:42. > :15:45.In this case, on the hot-button issue of curbing benefits
:15:46. > :15:50.Now we're all focussing on that like it matters.
:15:51. > :15:53.Here's our political editor, David Grossman.
:15:54. > :15:56.For the purposes of this EU referendum there are really two
:15:57. > :16:04.One has the job of negotiating a deal with the EU, the other,
:16:05. > :16:07.the job of selling it to the British people.
:16:08. > :16:09.The chances of David two being successful,
:16:10. > :16:15.depend on David one playing the part of someone who fought hard,
:16:16. > :16:17.banged the table even, threatened to walk away
:16:18. > :16:21.but ultimately pulled off a spectacular victory in the teeth
:16:22. > :16:25.So it was last night in Downing Street that the Prime
:16:26. > :16:29.Minister held talks with EU Council President Donald Tusk,
:16:30. > :16:33.These were the photographs handed out to the media.
:16:34. > :16:35.And look, they didn't even have time to eat
:16:36. > :16:41.It's all with helpful for the sense of spectacle on these occasions
:16:42. > :16:43.if one of the parties can rush out proclaiming that there's
:16:44. > :16:53.And I suppose a tweet wouldn't hurt either,
:16:54. > :16:56.encouraging signals were run up the EU flag pole.
:16:57. > :17:00.What do you know, the deal has been done - a draft text will now be
:17:01. > :17:04.It's already clear that whatever this text says when it is published,
:17:05. > :17:07.will be a long way from what the Prime Minister said
:17:08. > :17:10.he was looking for when he began the renegotiation process.
:17:11. > :17:13.Initially, David Cameron wanted to tackle EU migration into Britain
:17:14. > :17:19.There were, he said, two distinct problems.
:17:20. > :17:22.One is movement to claim benefits, we need to crack down on that.
:17:23. > :17:28.But I think secondly what's gone wrong, and I don't think the people
:17:29. > :17:31.who founded the EU ever believed this was going to happen,
:17:32. > :17:33.is the scale of the movements have been so big.
:17:34. > :17:37.So as well as stopping EU migrants claiming in-work benefits for four
:17:38. > :17:41.years to tackle the first problem, he said he needed to get fundamental
:17:42. > :17:45.reform to the EU's free movement of people.
:17:46. > :17:48.No longer would EU citizens, he said, be able to come to Britain
:17:49. > :17:54.We want EU job-seekers to have a job offer before they come here,
:17:55. > :17:59.and to stop UK taxpayers having to support them if they don't.
:18:00. > :18:02.But perhaps there was an omen as he delivered that speech,
:18:03. > :18:04.as he got to the section on reforming free movement
:18:05. > :18:10.But freedom of movement has never been an unqualified right,
:18:11. > :18:14.and we now need to allow it to operate on a more sustainable
:18:15. > :18:18.basis, in the light of experience in recent years.
:18:19. > :18:20.That doesn't mean a closed-door regime.
:18:21. > :18:22.An alarm also went off in the chancelleries of
:18:23. > :18:37.The Government's original proposal was to limit free movement,
:18:38. > :18:42.but it was quite clear that that was simply not acceptable
:18:43. > :18:44.to a majority of our European partners, so they've falled back
:18:45. > :18:47.on this divisive limiting access for migrants to the benefit system,
:18:48. > :18:50.which may save a small amount of money, but is unlikely to have
:18:51. > :18:56.And that conclusion, that limiting in-work benefits
:18:57. > :19:00.will do nothing to dissuade EU migrants from coming to the UK,
:19:01. > :19:03.is one shared by other economists, including Sir Stephen Nickell
:19:04. > :19:06.at the Office for Budget Responsibility.
:19:07. > :19:10.You're asking me what impact that's likely to have?
:19:11. > :19:19.And for MPs who want to leave the EU, the benefits issue is just
:19:20. > :19:30.What they want to do is control immigration from the EU,
:19:31. > :19:33.allowing who they want to allow in and stop people who they don't
:19:34. > :19:37.It's a numbers game, it has nothing to do with benefits.
:19:38. > :19:40.It's really a sideshow to the argument that is actually out
:19:41. > :19:43.Conservative MPs who want Britain to remain in the EU are not
:19:44. > :19:46.Instead, their case is about Britain's
:19:47. > :19:50.I'm a reluctant inner, if you like...
:19:51. > :19:52.I think the vast majority of the Parliamentary party
:19:53. > :19:55.are Eurosceptic, but will, in the end, decide that
:19:56. > :20:01.for strategic regions, geopolitical reasons,
:20:02. > :20:04.that Britain's best interests' are served at the heart of Europe,
:20:05. > :20:07.ensuring France and Germany don't dominate foreign policy or diplomacy
:20:08. > :20:09.or even trade policy, so the majority I think will vote
:20:10. > :20:21.The question is, how much will the public care or notice
:20:22. > :20:23.the continuing shifting emphasis of these negotiations?
:20:24. > :20:25.Indeed, how much will voters focus on substance at all,
:20:26. > :20:32.Well David is here to give us the latest.
:20:33. > :20:42.In case there is any late news. Tomorrow at noon, Donald Tusk
:20:43. > :20:46.bringing forward his offer to the UK. Is there any briefing tonight?
:20:47. > :20:50.What we have tonight is one aspect of what will be on that, which is
:20:51. > :20:53.about something the Prime Minister and others in Europe are pushing
:20:54. > :20:58.for, a wave of national parliaments getting together and blocking
:20:59. > :21:03.something they don't like. Something addressing the crisis of legitimacy
:21:04. > :21:07.in the EU. At the moment the EU's responses to strengthen the role of
:21:08. > :21:10.the EU Parliament, but fewer people vote in the EU Parliament than vote
:21:11. > :21:16.for national parliaments. What they have this idea is 55% of EU
:21:17. > :21:23.parliaments can come together and block a measure. Downing Street this
:21:24. > :21:29.is a big move for them and a victory for the Prime Minister, in terms of
:21:30. > :21:33.that low threshold. The question is, is 55% going to block much? People I
:21:34. > :21:42.have been speaking to suggest it may not. At the moment we already have
:21:43. > :21:47.35% as a blocking minority in the Council of ministers. 35% as opposed
:21:48. > :21:55.to 55%. Also one think tank suggested last year it should be
:21:56. > :22:00.lower than a third, even lower than 30%, if you want to get a real red
:22:01. > :22:07.card system. In a word, benefits, the one everyone is talking about.
:22:08. > :22:10.Any word? I'm afraid not. We will wait until tomorrow. Thank you.
:22:11. > :22:12.The sad story of Kids Company has been written up
:22:13. > :22:16.The children's charity carried so many hopes and promised so much
:22:17. > :22:19.Its fate was substantially sealed by reports on this programme
:22:20. > :22:23.The Public Adminstration Committee report tries to point some blame
:22:24. > :22:35.We will look at some of those shortly. First more on Kids Company
:22:36. > :22:37.itself from Chris Cooke. The tale of Kids Company's collapse
:22:38. > :22:40.is now in its final chapters. This week on Wednesday a BBC
:22:41. > :22:42.documentary on Camila Batmanghelidjh, its Chief
:22:43. > :22:43.Executive, will air. We have to be very clear about that,
:22:44. > :22:48.I never break the law, And today, the House of Commons'
:22:49. > :22:56.Public Administrations Committee The MPs are scathing
:22:57. > :23:02.about the charity's management, but also about the auditors
:23:03. > :23:05.who looked at its books and the regulator for
:23:06. > :23:07.the charity sector. But they are most critical
:23:08. > :23:10.of the charity's trustees. In fact, they go as far to suggest
:23:11. > :23:14.that the Charity Commission should look at whether they should be
:23:15. > :23:16.banned from ever being It just feels like such a huge
:23:17. > :23:25.shame, because so many of the relationships,
:23:26. > :23:32.especially that key workers had, with their clients were really
:23:33. > :23:34.important and had huge benefit, and it just seems, the way
:23:35. > :23:37.that it closed down, as well as the fact it closed down,
:23:38. > :23:40.just seems like young people The report rehearses the familiar
:23:41. > :23:44.rap sheet of inflated client numbers, generosity to a few
:23:45. > :23:45.favourites, and weak This footage from the documentary
:23:46. > :23:49.shows cash and vouchers being delivered and then
:23:50. > :23:57.handed out to clients. The charity blamed its collapse
:23:58. > :24:01.on a police investigation into abuse allegations, triggered
:24:02. > :24:04.by a report by this programme, and dropped by the police
:24:05. > :24:07.without charges brought. But the MPs say the charity
:24:08. > :24:10.collapsed because it was just so financially feeble,
:24:11. > :24:14.unable to cope with any shocks. The trustees had failed to rein
:24:15. > :24:19.in their Chief Executive. In fact, in late 2014
:24:20. > :24:22.Ms Batmanghelidjh refused financial help from a big multimillionaire
:24:23. > :24:25.donor because she said the potential At the time Kids Company had
:24:26. > :24:32.a ?4 million deficit, a gap eventually covered
:24:33. > :24:35.with public money. The MPs also said that they believed
:24:36. > :24:38.the charity had problems safeguarding its clients,
:24:39. > :24:40.and that is an accusation that is particularly
:24:41. > :24:43.galling to the trustees, because just last week
:24:44. > :24:45.the Metropolitan Police dropped an investigation into the charity
:24:46. > :24:49.and stated it found no evidence MPs listened to different people,
:24:50. > :24:55.they spoke to government officials and former employees
:24:56. > :24:56.and they reached The MPs were exercised by poor
:24:57. > :25:02.whistle-blowing practice, as in the case with Helen Winter,
:25:03. > :25:05.who tribunal found gave a Class A drug to a
:25:06. > :25:08.client in a nightclub. A colleague attempted to blow
:25:09. > :25:11.the whistle about it. Camila directed me to confront
:25:12. > :25:16.Dr Winter at the Academy, that same day, in order to try
:25:17. > :25:19.and get her to admit to what she had After that HR instigated
:25:20. > :25:26.an investigation into what had happened, and they employed somebody
:25:27. > :25:30.who was meant to be an independent investigator, but who actually had
:25:31. > :25:33.strong ties to Kids Alan Yentob, Chair of the Trustees,
:25:34. > :25:40.gets particular blame from the MPs. Notably for his attempts
:25:41. > :25:43.in the summer to influence BBC journalists, including on Newsnight,
:25:44. > :25:49.while he was BBC Creative Director. They say that a senior figure
:25:50. > :25:51.could act in this way, and it could take so long
:25:52. > :25:54.for action to be taken, reflects poorly on
:25:55. > :25:55.the BBC's leadership. The MPs were also critical
:25:56. > :26:02.of ministers at Kids Company who received more than ?40 million
:26:03. > :26:16.of public money during its life. They are particularly interested
:26:17. > :26:18.in a ?3 million grant made by the Cabinet Office
:26:19. > :26:21.to Kids Company just days A grant signed off by Oliver Letwin
:26:22. > :26:24.and Matthew Hancock The committee hint that
:26:25. > :26:27.the political preference for Kids Company came right
:26:28. > :26:29.from the top. They note, in letters
:26:30. > :26:31.to Camila Batmanghelidjh in 2011, 2013 and 2014, the Prime Minister
:26:32. > :26:33.expressed his personal support for the charity, and ministers
:26:34. > :26:36.struggled to invent a rationale If I was a minister assessing
:26:37. > :26:39.Kids Company for a grant, I would have been looking
:26:40. > :26:43.for accurate monitoring, so good use of numbers,
:26:44. > :26:46.clearly reported, using sound methodology, and I would have been
:26:47. > :26:50.looking for outcomes measurement. I would have been looking for them
:26:51. > :26:54.to show, in some way, not causal, but at least correlations,
:26:55. > :26:56.between the work that they were doing, and the effects
:26:57. > :26:59.that was having an young You repeatedly said that
:27:00. > :27:03.Kids Company were doing good work. As I say, I had personal and direct
:27:04. > :27:10.experience of talking Now the trustees say
:27:11. > :27:24.the MPs report is biased, partial and ignored their evidence,
:27:25. > :27:30.but the committee is clear - they don't want
:27:31. > :27:32.another Kids Company. And you saw some clips of a BBC
:27:33. > :27:38.documentary into Kids Company there. That'll be shown on BBC One
:27:39. > :27:45.on Wednesday at 9pm. I'm joined now by Bernard Jenkin,
:27:46. > :27:56.chair of the Public Accounts The Independent columnist who has
:27:57. > :28:03.seen first-hand some of the work Kids Company did. Some people think
:28:04. > :28:06.that if it hadn't been for that police investigation, Kids Company
:28:07. > :28:09.would still be operating now. The police did in the end to save no
:28:10. > :28:16.need to take action, is that your view? Yes. In the post-Jimmy Savile
:28:17. > :28:22.era as soon as there is a whiff of scandal to do with sex and children,
:28:23. > :28:26.of course everybody, and quite rightly, begins to go into
:28:27. > :28:32.overdrive. But it did unfortunately set something up, which in the
:28:33. > :28:38.end... I'm just so sorry and sad for those kids who really depended on
:28:39. > :28:44.the work that was being done. I just don't buy this idea that whatever
:28:45. > :28:49.was going on was exaggerated. I talked to a lot of those kids. I
:28:50. > :28:56.went one morning just before seven, I have never had a single cup of
:28:57. > :29:01.Coffey with Camila or Alan Yentob, I am not in their circle. I am often
:29:02. > :29:05.accused of being a lovely, I don't know them and they are not my
:29:06. > :29:10.friends. But the thing that really struck me was the kids came last, if
:29:11. > :29:16.they ever came at all. And the committee should have spoken to some
:29:17. > :29:23.of the children, the older children. On that one specifically? I think
:29:24. > :29:31.they were very mindful of the fact that at the end of this, there were
:29:32. > :29:35.children in very difficult circumstances. I promise you, this
:29:36. > :29:39.was something that occupied us. It was very easy to get carried away
:29:40. > :29:44.with all the things that went wrong. We kept reminding ourselves, this
:29:45. > :29:48.charity probably did a lot of good work and we heard from a lot of the
:29:49. > :29:52.employees who had done a lot of that good work. One of the things we say
:29:53. > :29:58.in our report is what has been learned by this charity must not be
:29:59. > :30:02.lost. We met some people who were setting up some sort of continuation
:30:03. > :30:06.of the good things that the charity did. We referred to that in our
:30:07. > :30:11.report, because we think that is an important message. You think the
:30:12. > :30:16.charity would have collapsed anyway, if it wasn't for the police
:30:17. > :30:21.investigation? About the doubt. It was living a completely hand to
:30:22. > :30:25.mouth existence. Every time any money came in, the evidence we
:30:26. > :30:30.received was that the money just went out the door, one way or
:30:31. > :30:34.another it was spent, because the priority of the charity was always
:30:35. > :30:38.the kids. That was understandable, that was noble, but if your priority
:30:39. > :30:40.is so much the case, you're not actually thinking about the
:30:41. > :30:45.interests of the charity, the interests of the employees. The
:30:46. > :30:49.interest of your creditors. You have to think about that as well. I think
:30:50. > :30:58.you are right, of course. There were a lot of short cuts taken. Camila
:30:59. > :31:03.Batmanghelidjh, got swept away, but at the end of the day this was about
:31:04. > :31:07.children who nobody could love. I couldn't love them. They were not
:31:08. > :31:11.easy children. How do you measure, how do you measure giving hope to a
:31:12. > :31:21.person who is ripped apart? How many of them? I don't know, I
:31:22. > :31:25.don't speak for them. I know that the kids I met - and I met a lot
:31:26. > :31:30.over the years - were the kind of kids nobody else could help. They
:31:31. > :31:33.were unloved by their own families. Local authorities couldn't reach
:31:34. > :31:39.them and although I completely understand what the committee was
:31:40. > :31:42.trying to do, if I may say so, sometimes Select Committees which is
:31:43. > :31:48.a great system, become theatrical themselves. I think yours did. Were
:31:49. > :31:52.you part of the echo chamber? Clearly there was a lot of media
:31:53. > :31:55.attention going on. Have you just howled back to the media what they
:31:56. > :32:01.were telling you? I was more worried about the evidence session with
:32:02. > :32:07.Allan Yentob than any other session I have sat on. I was worried it
:32:08. > :32:12.would become a circus. So we decided that our questions were going to be
:32:13. > :32:19.very practical, very down to earth, quite forensic, just looking for the
:32:20. > :32:23.information. That, in a way, kept the thing sensible, because it was
:32:24. > :32:26.always in danger of going off track that evidence session. It didn't
:32:27. > :32:33.feel like that if you were watching it. Also, before you'd had the
:32:34. > :32:38.LSC... But it was our witnesses. The justice, whatever it's called. The
:32:39. > :32:40.social justice commission. Academics, practitioners and
:32:41. > :32:44.including civil servants, who had looked at the work of the
:32:45. > :32:47.organisation. There's a long history of civil servants looking at this
:32:48. > :32:53.and thinking, this is very difficult to assess, whether the outcomes -
:32:54. > :32:57.exactly what we heard on that film that from the former employee that
:32:58. > :33:01.there wasn't a proper assessment of outcomes. The reports you're
:33:02. > :33:07.referring to - The LSC report was amazing. The LSC report, social
:33:08. > :33:10.justice commission report, they identified individual cases where
:33:11. > :33:13.good work was being done and you could argue there was a gap in the
:33:14. > :33:17.statutory provision which is what the charity was about. But it didn't
:33:18. > :33:21.address the failing that's the trustees should have known about.
:33:22. > :33:25.You have said the trustees or it should be looked at whether they
:33:26. > :33:32.should be trustees of charities again, I want to can you a question
:33:33. > :33:36.- what about Oliver Letwin, who OKKed money, overroad civil servants
:33:37. > :33:41.and wanted to give taxpayer money to this charity, they said not unless
:33:42. > :33:47.you have written instructions. What's the sanction for him? In a
:33:48. > :33:53.way, we've tried not to cast blame on individual trustees. What's your
:33:54. > :33:58.personal view? I will explain this. We wanted to learn owons. In the
:33:59. > :34:02.same -- lessons. In the same way we approached what civil servants did,
:34:03. > :34:05.we wanted to learn lessons. You gave lessons out to the trustees and not
:34:06. > :34:10.willing to give it to the politicians. No, where there is a
:34:11. > :34:13.close political relationship with a high profile charity, ministers
:34:14. > :34:17.shouldn't have anything to do with the decision to funding to those
:34:18. > :34:20.charities. There were conflicts as interests, just as we complain about
:34:21. > :34:25.it in the BBC, there were conflicts of interest that ministers had that
:34:26. > :34:29.should have prevented their making these decisions. Do you think there
:34:30. > :34:35.are other charities, other kids companies out there, very good at
:34:36. > :34:38.raising money... Thgs the main message for them, in all these
:34:39. > :34:42.organisations, there are powerful people who are very persuasive and
:34:43. > :34:47.the one thing the Charity Commission says is you shouldn't allow your
:34:48. > :34:50.judgment as a trustee could be swayed by your personal prejudices
:34:51. > :34:55.or a powerful and influential person. And you shouldn't
:34:56. > :34:58.characterise, sorry, you've described the kids company in a way
:34:59. > :35:03.that I would argue is terribly biassed. Ive don't agree with that
:35:04. > :35:08.characterisation at all. Fair point. Point made. Thank you both. It's a
:35:09. > :35:09.very sad story from which we should learn a lot. It will come back. She
:35:10. > :35:14.will come back. All right. OK. Have the British done their bit
:35:15. > :35:16.for refugees that have Or is it better to help those
:35:17. > :35:20.stranded nearer Syria? The Conservative MP
:35:21. > :35:22.for South Cambridgeshire, Heidi Allen - elected
:35:23. > :35:24.for the first time last year - has been taking a close interest
:35:25. > :35:27.in the refugee situation and she's just spent the weekend
:35:28. > :35:30.on the Greek island of Lesbos with Save the Children,
:35:31. > :35:32.getting a close look at life in camps there, particularly
:35:33. > :35:35.for the unaccompanied children. This is the first thing that
:35:36. > :35:37.struck me, actually. Some of these boats from a distance
:35:38. > :35:45.look like they are in really good condition, but when you get
:35:46. > :35:47.up close and personal, I don't know whether you can see
:35:48. > :35:53.in there, but that is the most evocative thing I have seen
:35:54. > :35:56.so far, just the discarded There is a little kid's shoe over
:35:57. > :36:01.there, and this is a boat I can't even imagine how many
:36:02. > :36:03.people have crammed onto, on a journey that would take
:36:04. > :36:06.anything from an hour to ten hours Here's the thing, the smugglers give
:36:07. > :36:11.you your boat, give someone a brief ten-minute training,
:36:12. > :36:12.and then a refugee themselves has to man this boat and bring
:36:13. > :36:15.it over here. And that I find staggering,
:36:16. > :36:17.that people are completely left to their own devices,
:36:18. > :36:20.in the dark, they have no idea where they are going and just hoping
:36:21. > :36:23.to reach land on the other side. So this is Kara Tepe camp,
:36:24. > :36:27.on Lesbos, which is where families come once they have been
:36:28. > :36:31.registered on arrival. Some people will be here
:36:32. > :36:34.literally just for a day, and then they are on boats
:36:35. > :36:38.to the next point of their journey It is a tremendous facility,
:36:39. > :36:45.actually, and the loveliest part is that Save The Children managed
:36:46. > :36:51.to find a small space for children to play, toys -
:36:52. > :36:54.they can draw, they can paint. Some really beautiful paintings,
:36:55. > :36:56.but some very, very But that's part of the process here,
:36:57. > :37:02.to try and help the children come Great facilities, lots of Ikea huts,
:37:03. > :37:07.which are great, but we need to have Some of them don't have heating
:37:08. > :37:11.in them, that is so important. Today is a lovely sunny day,
:37:12. > :37:14.but we had snow last week, so getting the right
:37:15. > :37:16.equipment and facilities Well, Heidi Allen met
:37:17. > :37:19.the Immigration Minister, James Brokenshire, before she left
:37:20. > :37:21.and will meet him again But he won't need to wait
:37:22. > :37:25.to hear her view, because she's written it up for The Sun,
:37:26. > :37:33.and is with me here. Goning to you. -- Good evening to
:37:34. > :37:39.you. You knew it would be bad before you went, did anything surprise you?
:37:40. > :37:43.The overall scale and the inability of the Greek authorities to deal
:37:44. > :37:47.with it. I didn't expect it to be a wonderful experience. I knew it
:37:48. > :37:50.would be very upsetting, but just the pressure, it seems to me, being
:37:51. > :37:56.placed on the Greek authorities to just deal with it. Every charity you
:37:57. > :38:00.can think of is there, everybody is trying so hard. From a coordination
:38:01. > :38:06.point of view it's overwhelmed. They can't deal with it. Who should take
:38:07. > :38:09.responsibility, particularly for the children, in a Greek island, kids
:38:10. > :38:14.who don't belong to any European family? I think it's, what's become
:38:15. > :38:19.very clear to me, is that this is more than just a local problem, more
:38:20. > :38:23.than a European problem. This is a global problem. Everybody that's had
:38:24. > :38:27.a role in trying to defeat Daesh, that's what's fuelling a lot of
:38:28. > :38:32.these migrants moving across, has to play their part. For me, it's
:38:33. > :38:37.operational. The issues to solve the problem in Syria etc are huge and
:38:38. > :38:40.more complex. Right here and now in the Italian islands, this is about
:38:41. > :38:44.administration, bodies on the ground. I feel that every European
:38:45. > :38:47.country, America, should come together, contribute and have some
:38:48. > :38:50.real organisation there. They could really transform the situation. Us
:38:51. > :38:54.as well? Absolutely, yes. We are doing that. That's something I'm
:38:55. > :38:59.very proud of. We're doing it, though, we're doing it to people out
:39:00. > :39:03.nearer Syria, aren't we? That's our policy. We don't want to pull people
:39:04. > :39:06.to Europe. Correct. We're not helping people in Europe. That is
:39:07. > :39:09.the British Government approach. Broadly speaking and overall I would
:39:10. > :39:16.agree with that. What I saw the levels of people coming through,
:39:17. > :39:18.some days 7,000 people per day arriving on these coasts, it's
:39:19. > :39:22.absolutely right that we try to keep people that are economic migrants, a
:39:23. > :39:26.lot of the time, staying in the countries they come from. Once they
:39:27. > :39:32.arrive, it becomes everybody's problem. So the Government has
:39:33. > :39:36.announced that they will invest money directly in the administration
:39:37. > :39:39.processes. We can't help all those children without bringing some of
:39:40. > :39:43.the children to the UK, presumably. They can't live on a Greek island
:39:44. > :39:46.forever, that's not going to happen. There will be some who can't be sent
:39:47. > :39:52.back as economic migrants. Some of them are children. What sort of
:39:53. > :39:55.number do you think we should take? Is it 25,000 unaccompanied kids
:39:56. > :39:59.arrived last year? That's the estimate. Even Save the Children
:40:00. > :40:04.would say it's difficult to get a feel. The real reason why it's hard
:40:05. > :40:08.to know how many there are is because of the administrational
:40:09. > :40:11.break down. A lot of these children will have estranged family members,
:40:12. > :40:15.distant cousins, already in Europe. We need to go through the process to
:40:16. > :40:20.identify who they are and then it's who's left behind. In Italy, we have
:40:21. > :40:24.a much clearer picture of that, because the processes there are more
:40:25. > :40:27.developed. You're painting this as just an admin problem. Do you think
:40:28. > :40:32.it's actually also about bringing youngsters... It is, yes. What
:40:33. > :40:37.scale, 5,000 for the UK? 3,000 is the figure people have said? I don't
:40:38. > :40:40.know if it's clear-cut as that. If it was me championing that meeting
:40:41. > :40:44.and bringing European leaders together, I would want a grown up
:40:45. > :40:47.conversation. Germany have opened their borders beyond all recognition
:40:48. > :40:51.and probably some would say too far, within the huge numbers that they
:40:52. > :40:54.have taken, by default there will be a lot of unaccompanied children that
:40:55. > :40:59.have come part of that. It's a sensible conversation of leaders
:41:00. > :41:03.talking about human beings saying, "What can you manage? Until we do
:41:04. > :41:05.the work to understand the number of children who are there
:41:06. > :41:09.unaccompanied, because nobody should try to find a home for a child in a
:41:10. > :41:12.foreign country if there is the opportunity to find their family
:41:13. > :41:17.that. Process has to be gone through first. Thanks very much.
:41:18. > :41:24.I'll be back tomorrow. We will know the results from Iowa. Until then,
:41:25. > :41:27.very good night.