:00:00. > :00:12.This was 2011, the gun had belonged to the deposed Colonel Gadaffi.
:00:13. > :00:21.So what's happened to that gun, this man and to Libya?
:00:22. > :00:32.? OK. We return to Libya, where Gabriel Gatehouse discovers a
:00:33. > :00:38.shattered country of warring tones. This is a crucial strategic point.
:00:39. > :00:42.That way leads south. Whoever controls this road controls a vast
:00:43. > :00:47.chunk of southern Libya. This wrote down here takes you to Sirte, just
:00:48. > :00:50.beyond this point here, Islamic State controlled territory.
:00:51. > :00:53.Also tonight, the Prime Minister has had his problems on Europe.
:00:54. > :00:57.We'll be talking to the MP who said this of the deal on offer.
:00:58. > :01:01.Will my right my honourable friend admits to the house that he has been
:01:02. > :01:04.reduced to polishing boots? So what does he have to say
:01:05. > :01:07.about his own campaign? Councils are talking about ditching
:01:08. > :01:18.the white lines. Wear white lines are removed,
:01:19. > :01:21.drivers have to pay more attention. They are much more cautious and
:01:22. > :01:23.aware of traffic coming towards them, and also pedestrians and
:01:24. > :01:29.cyclists. Not because it is not important,
:01:30. > :01:37.but because it is in such a mess, And a difficult place
:01:38. > :01:41.for journalists to safely report. But Libya's descent is a story that
:01:42. > :01:44.needs to be told - with the so-called Islamic State
:01:45. > :01:47.trying to fill the power Our reporter Gabriel Gatehouse
:01:48. > :01:54.was in the country when Gaddafi was captured four years ago,
:01:55. > :01:57.and he was intrigued by one Passed around the jubilant crowds,
:01:58. > :02:04.it was the deposed dictator's Now Gabriel has been back,
:02:05. > :02:10.with producer Warwick Harrington and cameraman Mark McCauley to find
:02:11. > :02:14.out what became of it, the people who had it
:02:15. > :02:30.and their country. The death of Gaddafi was the end and
:02:31. > :02:32.the beginning. This footage broadcast for the first time shows
:02:33. > :02:45.more clearly than ever the kernel's final moments. You can see him
:02:46. > :02:48.pleading for his life. Bloodstained fighters became instant heroes,
:02:49. > :02:59.brandishing the dictator's golden personal. -- pistol. I was there as
:03:00. > :03:01.they passed it among themselves. A symbol, not only of their victory,
:03:02. > :03:19.but of their dreams for a new Libya. The brutal nature of the kernel's
:03:20. > :03:25.killing perhaps foreshadowed what was to come. Rival governments
:03:26. > :03:34.backed by their own militias have left a vacuum in which Islamic State
:03:35. > :03:37.inspiration. The Golden gun was the ultimate war trophy, the symbol of
:03:38. > :03:42.the transfer of power in the new Libya. Today, we have a bunch of
:03:43. > :03:49.different groups vying for control here, so I want to know, where is
:03:50. > :03:55.the pistol now? Perhaps the fate of the Golden gun can tell us something
:03:56. > :04:01.about what has happened to Libya. This is Misrata, home to the
:04:02. > :04:05.fighters who caught Gaddafi. Today, it is an independent citystate and
:04:06. > :04:08.the main focus is the battle against Islamic State. They have taken
:04:09. > :04:11.control of the neighbouring city of Sirte. Once again, Misrata is on the
:04:12. > :04:37.front line. Are you seeing senior figures from
:04:38. > :05:09.Iraq and Syria now coming to Sirte? On his wall, the intelligence chief
:05:10. > :05:13.has pictures of Misrata's euros with the Gaddafi's the Golden gun. The
:05:14. > :05:17.pistol has retained mythical status and no one seems to know where it
:05:18. > :05:23.is. But I have three leads. These are the people I met in 2011. An
:05:24. > :05:29.appeal showed me the gun right after the capture of Gaddafi. Mohammed, on
:05:30. > :05:34.the right, in the baseball cap, was hailed as a rule on the day. And
:05:35. > :05:41.Anwar Suwan, a local power broker who is the word the kernel's body in
:05:42. > :05:46.a meat locker. -- -- restored Colonel Gaddafi's body. Our search
:05:47. > :05:55.takes us to the outskirts of Misrata. Nabil is a car mechanic who
:05:56. > :06:00.has joined the militia fighting Islamic State. This is Nabil? We
:06:01. > :06:04.learned that he is in fact on his way back from the front line at this
:06:05. > :06:14.moment so we head off to meet him. This is as far as we can safely go
:06:15. > :06:22.without armed escort. Gabriel Gatehouse. That's you, and that is
:06:23. > :06:26.me. For Nabil and his comrade, the fighting did not end with the
:06:27. > :06:30.capture of Colonel Gaddafi. Islamic State is active in this area,
:06:31. > :06:32.carrying out attacks far beyond their base. The commander tells me,
:06:33. > :06:50.God willing, they will prevail. Where is the gun, do you now? It is
:06:51. > :06:58.in Misrata? Who has it? The gun is there, somewhere. But he does not
:06:59. > :07:05.know who has it. In Misrata, in a half finished building, people have
:07:06. > :07:09.gathered for a week. These men are from Sirte and they have managed to
:07:10. > :07:16.escape the harsh regime of Islamic State.
:07:17. > :07:21.This man's brother was arrested on suspicion of being a spy. He was
:07:22. > :07:34.executed in the most horrific manner.
:07:35. > :07:46.They show me a picture on a mobile phone. It is all over Facebook, they
:07:47. > :07:50.say. The man's name was Milad and he was recently married. He left behind
:07:51. > :07:54.an infant son. He was left like that for three days. His friends and
:07:55. > :07:59.relatives have similar stories. They cut my nephew's head off with a
:08:00. > :08:03.sword, says this man. Then they displayed his corpse in public for
:08:04. > :08:08.four days. Over the past year, foreign fighters have poured into
:08:09. > :08:26.Sirte, they say. It is so sad. These people had
:08:27. > :08:31.thrown off the shackles of 42 years of dictatorship and what they found
:08:32. > :08:36.is actually something worse than that, something equally brutal as
:08:37. > :08:46.Gaddafi's regime but much more unpredictable. When Gaddafi was
:08:47. > :08:58.killed, he was brought to Ms router. His body was put on public display
:08:59. > :09:02.by my old contact, Anwar Suwan. At the end of 2011, that was when I
:09:03. > :09:07.last saw you, and you had Colonel Gaddafi's body in a fridge. I am
:09:08. > :09:12.hoping that Anwar and his friends can help us in our search for the
:09:13. > :09:19.men who captured Gaddafi. Some appeared. One has lost his mind,
:09:20. > :09:24.they tell me, but he is in Misrata. That is Mohammed. He was carried
:09:25. > :09:29.aloft by the crowd, hailed as a hero. They promised to find his
:09:30. > :09:35.number. The last time I saw Anwar, he and his men were high on hope.
:09:36. > :09:42.Today, Libya is falling apart, fracturing a long deep fault lines.
:09:43. > :09:58.Islamist versus sectional arrest -- secularist, East versus West.
:09:59. > :10:04.Into this poisonous mix, Islamic State has injected itself. It has
:10:05. > :10:08.made its base in the neighbouring city of Sirte but its reach is
:10:09. > :10:14.expanding, carrying out attacks and suicide bombs across Libya. Because
:10:15. > :10:19.the international forces are fighting Daesh in Syria and Iraq,
:10:20. > :10:26.are you worried that they will come more strongly into Libya? Yes,
:10:27. > :10:30.because Daesh feel that they will be finished in Iraq and Syria, so the
:10:31. > :10:39.best place to come is here. Because there is not a strong governments to
:10:40. > :10:44.fight here. Closed to Ms router is the ancient Roman city of lettuce
:10:45. > :10:48.Magna. It is one of the best preserved archaeological sites in
:10:49. > :10:53.North Africa. Should Islamic State reach this far, it will surely
:10:54. > :11:02.suffer the same fate as the Syrian city of Palmeiro. The defence of the
:11:03. > :11:07.site is less the volunteers. UNESCO world Heritage daters will not
:11:08. > :11:26.protected. These men stand guard with nothing but a Kalashnikov.
:11:27. > :11:34.Ali is begging for help, any kind of help. More men, money to pay his
:11:35. > :11:43.men, even some radios. As it is, he is on his own. We left messages for
:11:44. > :11:46.Mohammed, our final lead. But meanwhile, the military has given us
:11:47. > :11:52.permission to visit their forward positions. We drive south into the
:11:53. > :11:57.desert towards Sirte. It is where Gaddafi was from, and where he was
:11:58. > :12:01.killed. Now it is the headquarters of Islamic State in North Africa.
:12:02. > :12:05.120 kilometres from Misrata, the last line of defence against Islamic
:12:06. > :12:11.State. This is a crucial strategic point. This fork in the road. That
:12:12. > :12:15.way Leeds South, so whoever controls this road controls a vast chunk of
:12:16. > :12:24.Southern Libya. This wrote down here takes you to Sirte and beyond this
:12:25. > :12:29.point here is Islamic state controlled territory. Islamic State
:12:30. > :12:32.in Libya has recruited loyalists of the deposed regime. Along with
:12:33. > :12:39.foreign fighters, they make for a formidable foe. The combined force
:12:40. > :12:41.against Islamic State your numbers about 1400 men, less than half the
:12:42. > :13:10.estimated numbers of state fighters. Small numbers of NATO special forces
:13:11. > :13:14.have, quietly, been sent him to explore potential local allies.
:13:15. > :13:18.Britain, America and others are continuing sending a bigger force,
:13:19. > :13:24.perhaps as many as 6000 troops in eight training capacity. But with no
:13:25. > :13:28.agreement between Libya's rival governments, their deployment has
:13:29. > :13:36.been held up. Sooner or later, this patch of desert will likely become
:13:37. > :13:41.the next IES battle ground. -- the next Islamic State battle ground.
:13:42. > :13:45.And then some news. Mohammed, it is Gabriel Gatehouse from the BBC. How
:13:46. > :13:53.are you? I don't know if you remember, but we met in Sirte when
:13:54. > :14:04.you captured Colonel Gaddafi. You remember me? How are you? Are you
:14:05. > :14:09.free that is Mohammed, the guy in the blue top and the baseball cap.
:14:10. > :14:11.He is here, and he speaks good English, and we are meeting in an
:14:12. > :14:20.hour. Mohammed hello, how are you. We take
:14:21. > :14:25.our shoes off? Is that your Playstation? You remember this? Yes.
:14:26. > :14:32.It was like you were the hero of the moment. Everyone was lifting you up.
:14:33. > :14:39.When they saw the guns of Gaddafi, they think I'm killing him and I
:14:40. > :14:42.catch him. The rebels saw the gun in Mohammed's hand and so they thought
:14:43. > :14:49.he was the one who killed Gaddafi. But he wasn't. Amid the confusion he
:14:50. > :14:55.had found the pistol on the ground. Mohammed became the accidental hero
:14:56. > :15:00.of the revolution. Do you know what happened to the gun, where is this
:15:01. > :15:05.gun, can you get it? Yes, I will call my dad. He is with him. It is
:15:06. > :15:14.with him? Yes. I think we may have found the gun! The family are wary
:15:15. > :15:19.of their trophy, there are still Gaddafi loyalists there. Mohammed
:15:20. > :15:23.ask us to tell the world it wasn't he who killed Gaddafi. His face will
:15:24. > :15:27.be associated with that golden gun. But his father wanted to remain off
:15:28. > :15:39.camera. You have the gun with you now? OK. Can I see it? Wow! There it
:15:40. > :15:50.is. You take... Yes it is empty. Wow! That is extraordinary. Heavy.
:15:51. > :15:55.It is heavy. It is a present from the son of Gaddafi. A present from
:15:56. > :15:58.his son? I think. It is a celebration of Colonel Gaddafi's
:15:59. > :16:03.rule. Extraordinary to see this thing again after four and a half
:16:04. > :16:07.years. I held this on the day that everyone thought the revolution was
:16:08. > :16:11.over and Libya was starting a bright new future and here we are nearly
:16:12. > :16:16.five years down the line and this country's still at war with ifts.
:16:17. > :16:23.When you found this gun, did you expect things to turn out this way?
:16:24. > :16:33.I'm really sad about that. Because when I say the Libyan killing, it is
:16:34. > :16:40.really so bad. The capture of the golden gun once symbolised the
:16:41. > :16:46.dawning of a new era. Gone is the wild optimism of those heady days.
:16:47. > :16:51.The gun today is a symbol of a revolution still unfinished, a rev
:16:52. > :16:52.fusion whose fate may yet prove decisive in the wider struggle
:16:53. > :17:11.against Islamic State. You gave us a close look at the
:17:12. > :17:14.mess. In broad terms what are western governments thinking about
:17:15. > :17:22.IS and the progress they have made there? They're worried in Iraq and
:17:23. > :17:25.Syria IS has been contained in Libya they're being allowed to
:17:26. > :17:30.proliferate. The Pentagon said they're looking at military options
:17:31. > :17:36.to contain Islamic State in Libya. The question is what are the
:17:37. > :17:40.options. I reported about the small number of Special Forces, looking
:17:41. > :17:46.for local allies on the ground. There is this mooted force in a
:17:47. > :17:55.training capacity. Training force that sounds intriguing. Possibly a
:17:56. > :18:01.sleight of hand. Possibly 6,000 troops, possibly Italian led with
:18:02. > :18:05.British involvement. Yesterday at the Foreign Secretary and his French
:18:06. > :18:10.counter part tried to pour cold water on the idea of boots on the
:18:11. > :18:12.ground. There is a sense in western capitals that they need to do
:18:13. > :18:18.something, but they don't know thousand do it. -- how to do it.
:18:19. > :18:22.Even if there were a unified government in Libya to give them the
:18:23. > :18:27.green light, there is no sense they will. There is a sense the Libyans
:18:28. > :18:34.are not focussed on Islamic State, its not their biggest problem. So if
:18:35. > :18:37.the Libyan authorities won't act, does the west act unilaterally with
:18:38. > :18:40.all the problems that implies. Thank you.
:18:41. > :18:43.Claudia Gazzini is a specialist in Libya at the NGO,
:18:44. > :18:58.Clearly, the ideal scenario would be for the disunited Libyan fighters to
:18:59. > :19:02.get together and unite and then we would know who we are dealing with.
:19:03. > :19:07.What is stopping that happening at the moment? Well the country has
:19:08. > :19:12.been you know divided politically and militarily for almost two years.
:19:13. > :19:21.You had political factions fighting each other and local allies also
:19:22. > :19:26.fighting each other. You have a very fragmented security scene. There was
:19:27. > :19:33.hope in 2015 that the UN-head peace process would lead to a Un if Ied --
:19:34. > :19:38.unified government to overcome the factors. But the peace process is
:19:39. > :19:42.stumbling, we don't have a government in place and the reason
:19:43. > :19:48.for this is really that there wasn't enough leg work in preparing the
:19:49. > :19:53.security dialogue, a security dialogue of the Libyan armed groups
:19:54. > :20:02.to back the political process. So we are left with a stumbling political
:20:03. > :20:06.process and no nationwide conversation between the groups that
:20:07. > :20:13.are in deep distrust to each other. This a chaps that IS would kind --
:20:14. > :20:18.chance that IS would focus minds and they would say we should sit down
:20:19. > :20:25.and sort this so we can take on IS? Well there are some groups in Libya
:20:26. > :20:30.that see this as a priority. But they're local rivals, that are
:20:31. > :20:35.working to establish their own local authority. They're the politicians
:20:36. > :20:42.that manoeuvre also these groups that are still engaged in a battle
:20:43. > :20:48.for control of the country. So at the moment, I think the UN and also
:20:49. > :20:54.international partners need to do more to help those Libyans, that
:20:55. > :21:01.tentativety would be willing to pick up the fight to talk with one voice
:21:02. > :21:05.and that is not happening yet. Are they good people there, are there
:21:06. > :21:09.people who the west or the UN could seriously work with? Do you know
:21:10. > :21:13.people there who you can pick the phone up to and have a conversation
:21:14. > :21:21.with on these kinds of matters? There are, these are people I do
:21:22. > :21:26.talk to as well. But to give you an example, Islamic State has its main
:21:27. > :21:31.stronghold in Sirte, but it is also seeking to expand eastwards towards
:21:32. > :21:37.Benghazi, where there is another presence of Islamic State. So the
:21:38. > :21:40.local commanders in Benghazi tell me they're ready to engage in military
:21:41. > :21:48.action against Islamic State to do so they think it is strategic to
:21:49. > :21:53.bring on board on their side those Islamist leaning groups that have an
:21:54. > :21:58.alliance with Islamic State, because they're being targeted as being an
:21:59. > :22:04.internal enemy by other army forces. So they're saying we want to tackle
:22:05. > :22:09.the Islamic State, we want to open up to these other Islamist leaning
:22:10. > :22:15.groups and bring them on our side, but we have army commanders on the
:22:16. > :22:23.ground that are refusing to do this. Their own commanders. We have talked
:22:24. > :22:28.about the ideal scenario, in the unideal scenario, in which Libya
:22:29. > :22:35.remain what is it is, can you see any useful intervention that the
:22:36. > :22:39.west brings to bear in there? Well certainly the west needs to remain
:22:40. > :22:45.engaged on Libya, on the security threat in Libya. Needs to increase
:22:46. > :22:53.its intelligence operations in the country. Help support local groups.
:22:54. > :22:57.But you know push, push and rethink maybe the political process. Bombing
:22:58. > :23:04.called for at this point? I know that is what we normally do. From
:23:05. > :23:11.what I hear there are already targeted strikes that do happen now
:23:12. > :23:16.and then by some anonymous source. This is a continuation of what has
:23:17. > :23:22.been, what is being... Happening in Libya. But rather than focussing on
:23:23. > :23:25.bombing, and just military action from the air, I think the
:23:26. > :23:34.international community, including the US and the UK, can do wonders if
:23:35. > :23:38.they do start engaging with military actors in the east, because your
:23:39. > :23:42.correspondent was in Misrata and that is the main focus of attention
:23:43. > :23:47.of international military, but there are other regions in Libya that
:23:48. > :23:52.needs to be engaged in order to have this war. Thank you very much.
:23:53. > :23:55.By the way, you can see more of Gabriel's report from Libya
:23:56. > :23:57.in Our World this weekend on the BBC News Channel -
:23:58. > :24:03.The Prime Minister has not had the warmest of receptions
:24:04. > :24:06.We showed you the negative newspaper front pages last night.
:24:07. > :24:08.Today, the reaction moved to the Commons.
:24:09. > :24:24.Our political editor David Grossman has been there.
:24:25. > :24:27.The institutions of Europe or the parliaments of
:24:28. > :24:31.For some MPs it is that question which encapsulates the debate
:24:32. > :24:36.Under the statue of Parliament's architect, Sir Charles Barry,
:24:37. > :24:39.one pro-EU Conservative MP told me that the Prime Minister had not come
:24:40. > :24:47.Naturally, I was someone who wanted to be convinced.
:24:48. > :24:52.The question I asked myself, if this is the very best that EU
:24:53. > :24:56.leaders can offer us, at a point when there is a very
:24:57. > :25:00.serious risk that Britain will exit, what does it mean if we tie
:25:01. > :25:02.ourselves in to the long-term future?
:25:03. > :25:07.Today was the first opportunity the Commons got to question
:25:08. > :25:09.the Prime Minister about the proposed deal and the issue
:25:10. > :25:14.of UK Parliamentary sovereignty was raised by Boris Johnson.
:25:15. > :25:24.He wants to know how the deal would change EU treaties.
:25:25. > :25:27.So as to assert the sovereignty of this House of Commons
:25:28. > :25:30.The Prime Minister's answer suggested that something along those
:25:31. > :25:35.I am keen to do even more to put beyond doubt that this House
:25:36. > :25:38.of Commons is sovereign and that is something we will look
:25:39. > :25:40.to do at the same time as concluding these negotiations.
:25:41. > :25:42.This afternoon David Cameron was asked about this
:25:43. > :25:53.If there is more we can do to secure Britain's sovereignty
:25:54. > :25:56.and to reform our situation in terms of the Human Rights Act,
:25:57. > :25:58.then I will be very keen to do that.
:25:59. > :26:01.Do you deny that ministers are working on such a proposal,
:26:02. > :26:03.that you expect to publish alongside the final deal?
:26:04. > :26:04.I have answered the question very clearly.
:26:05. > :26:09.Tomorrow, backbenchers have managed to get a Commons debate
:26:10. > :26:13.Many are particularly critical of the so-called red card proposal
:26:14. > :26:15.where if 15 parliaments across the EU bands together,
:26:16. > :26:18.they may be able to block the initiative.
:26:19. > :26:21.At the moment, there isn't enough on the table and most people
:26:22. > :26:25.The red card system, pulling together other parliaments
:26:26. > :26:28.to stop unwanted legislation in this country, is simply not
:26:29. > :26:33.I think the Prime Minister realises that, but perhaps has left himself
:26:34. > :26:36.open to a chink of light, so he can pull something out
:26:37. > :26:42.of the bag, depending on the strength of the opposition,
:26:43. > :26:44.to the proposals later in the debate.
:26:45. > :26:47.What would you like to get from them, given he has to pass 27
:26:48. > :26:50.Fundamental change, which is what he promised
:26:51. > :26:55.For many of us, that means the ability in this Parliament
:26:56. > :26:57.and other parliaments as well, in their own respect,
:26:58. > :27:03.to say no, to stop any unwonted EU directives.
:27:04. > :27:06.For Sarah Woolaston at least, a guarantee that the UK Parliament
:27:07. > :27:11.is sovereign over EU law would be very welcome.
:27:12. > :27:17.Because if at the moment, this emergency programme relies
:27:18. > :27:20.on 14 other members approximately agreeing to it, then realistically,
:27:21. > :27:26.But for Ken Clarke, it's impossible to have such a guarantee
:27:27. > :27:33.They're very keen on pressing things they know that are
:27:34. > :27:37.You could not belong to NATO if you said that the British
:27:38. > :27:39.parliament could unilaterally override our NATO obligations
:27:40. > :27:45.You could not join the United Nations if you said
:27:46. > :27:47.the British Parliament is sovereign and it must be free
:27:48. > :27:50.And reject the terms of the Charter.
:27:51. > :27:55.The World Trade Organisation, the IMF.
:27:56. > :27:59.The idea that you turn up and say, of course, the government has signed
:28:00. > :28:02.up to all this but back home, I have a parliament which can reject
:28:03. > :28:11.any treaty obligations that the government can object
:28:12. > :28:15.It is difficult to imagine what form of words would satisfy sceptical
:28:16. > :28:18.Conservative MPs and the EU leaders who think the answer to Europe's
:28:19. > :28:36.Now it is worth having a look at the newspapers, which are interesting
:28:37. > :28:42.headlines of the daily mail a big headline, who will speak for
:28:43. > :28:49.England? They explain by England, they mean the whole of the United
:28:50. > :28:56.Kingdom. They're quoting I think Arthur Greenwood in 1939. They liken
:28:57. > :29:03.the decisions we are making at this point to ones taken in 1939 when we
:29:04. > :29:11.went to war. The Times leads on cancer, but there is a piece about
:29:12. > :29:18.Michael Gove torn between Cameron and excite -- exit and the Guardian,
:29:19. > :29:25.Prime Minister's hard line woos Johnson.
:29:26. > :29:27.Let's focus on the Leave campaign now.
:29:28. > :29:30.There have been mumblings about why there are two Leave campaigns,
:29:31. > :29:33.And there's been dissent within one of the two,
:29:34. > :29:39.Tonight, Lord Lawson has been parachuted in as a new chairman.
:29:40. > :29:42.Some have called it disarray, others say it has now
:29:43. > :29:51.Steve Baker is a Conservative MP and member of Vote Leave -
:29:52. > :29:56.he is also chair of the Westminster group Conservatives for Britain.
:29:57. > :30:05.In. Let's start with the question of sovereignty. As a sceptic, do you
:30:06. > :30:08.see a way that the minister can assert the sovereignty of the
:30:09. > :30:14.British Parliament above the treaties of the EU without us
:30:15. > :30:20.leaving? No, it is very simple. You repeal the European communities act.
:30:21. > :30:22.There are two ideas around. One is a constitutional court, which is
:30:23. > :30:27.dangerous without a codified constitution. The other is
:30:28. > :30:31.positively dangerous. The idea of passing an act of Parliament to say
:30:32. > :30:34.we are sovereign would bring the sovereignty of Parliament within the
:30:35. > :30:37.jurisdiction of the courts, creating at best a paradox and at worst
:30:38. > :30:42.something dangerous. Did Phillips Hammond not say something about
:30:43. > :30:45.this? Yes, on the 7th of June last year, he appeared on the Andrew Marr
:30:46. > :30:50.Show and said positively that giving us a veto over EU law would be
:30:51. > :30:59.tantamount to an exit. Roger is the same as your view? You agree to the
:31:00. > :31:07.clerk? Yes. You cannot have it both ways. -- you agree with Ken Clarke.
:31:08. > :31:11.Boris Johnson, the headline in the Guardian, saying that he is tilting
:31:12. > :31:16.towards the end campaign. Is that a blow for you? At this stage, I have
:31:17. > :31:20.said I'm happy to go into the campaign, proud of that we have.
:31:21. > :31:24.With fewer men, a greater share of honour. But the reality is,
:31:25. > :31:28.conservatives cannot believe everything they read in the
:31:29. > :31:35.Guardian. You are hopeful that maybe he will come your way? I am grateful
:31:36. > :31:37.for every Conservative MP, every parliamentarian and voter, of
:31:38. > :31:44.whatever political party, who joins the campaign to leave. Of course I
:31:45. > :31:48.would like more, we would like all of the members of the Cabinet. Is
:31:49. > :31:53.Lord Lawson going to be the leader of the campaign? He was big in the
:31:54. > :32:03.80s. Like Ross. I would like the Prime Minister to lead us out of the
:32:04. > :32:08.EU. -- like Bros. Lord Lawson's role is to be the political colossus that
:32:09. > :32:13.he is. He lives in France! That is a good thing for Eurosceptic. But he
:32:14. > :32:17.is not working there, in France, although is he getting benefits?
:32:18. > :32:21.Under the Vienna writes, he would be entitled to live there under the
:32:22. > :32:26.rights he has acquired. The point is that he is a political colossus and
:32:27. > :32:30.it is evident to anyone that we have work to do to reach out to the other
:32:31. > :32:33.campaigns who wish to leave the European Union in order to
:32:34. > :32:36.collaborate and make sure that parliamentarians feel much more
:32:37. > :32:39.closely engaged with whatever political party is in the campaign.
:32:40. > :32:45.And that is what Lord Lawson's jobbies. You said the vote to leave
:32:46. > :32:50.campaign needed material changes. You were one of those who
:32:51. > :32:56.complained. I think I have been wearing a blue helmet for the UN.
:32:57. > :32:59.There have been changes tonight, with Dominic Cummings stepping down
:33:00. > :33:07.from the board. That was always planned. Was it? So why would you
:33:08. > :33:12.complaining? I was not complaining. I think the issue of why is one for
:33:13. > :33:16.people's memoirs. It is an issue for the board and the individuals
:33:17. > :33:21.involved. I'm sure it will be remembered differently in different
:33:22. > :33:24.people's memoirs. Dominic and I have not always agreed but I have learned
:33:25. > :33:29.to love him. He is a brilliant man and he will win this campaign. So it
:33:30. > :33:33.is all sorted? There is no material change? He is still running the
:33:34. > :33:37.campaign but not on the board? The material changes that Lord Lawson
:33:38. > :33:40.and Lord Forsyth are joining us to bring additional political capital
:33:41. > :33:45.which will be used. It is up to Lord Lawson on the board to decide how to
:33:46. > :33:49.do it, and it will be used to improve our relations with the other
:33:50. > :33:55.campaigns. You are going to merge with the other campaign, Orange you?
:33:56. > :34:01.They are saying they wanted to join and they are going to join. As
:34:02. > :34:05.politicians often say, there are no plans for a merger. We need to get
:34:06. > :34:10.to the point where there is a single designated campaign. Vote Leave will
:34:11. > :34:12.apply for designation and I am supporting Vote Leave. I believe
:34:13. > :34:17.Vote Leave will win the referendum. What we need to do is make sure that
:34:18. > :34:20.every single person of decency and goodwill who wishes to participate
:34:21. > :34:26.in the referendum has their place. And that is the negotiation which
:34:27. > :34:30.must take place. That is the accommodation which must be reached.
:34:31. > :34:35.In a word, would you like to be a merger? I don't think it is
:34:36. > :34:38.possible. The reason is there are genuine disagreements about strategy
:34:39. > :34:40.and tactics. A pity we do not have time to go into those. Thank you
:34:41. > :34:46.very much. While we might be thinking
:34:47. > :34:49.of getting out of the EU, one country trying
:34:50. > :34:51.to get in is Serbia. It's remarkable to think
:34:52. > :34:53.that just 16 years ago, our relationship
:34:54. > :34:54.was defined by this. These days, Serbia is trying to be
:34:55. > :34:59.a model European state, and in fact it's been
:35:00. > :35:01.commended for its approach If you look at the map,
:35:02. > :35:05.it sits on the refugee route Thousands travel
:35:06. > :35:08.through it on their way. They can't get through Hungary any
:35:09. > :35:11.more, so the ones who are allowed, What do the Serbs make
:35:12. > :35:16.of the EU's current state? The Prime Minister is in London
:35:17. > :35:24.today and I sat down with him. I ask them how many migrants and
:35:25. > :35:30.refugees were currently making their way through his country. -- I asked
:35:31. > :35:39.him. In 2016, originally 1820 people a day. And it is much less than it
:35:40. > :35:45.was before. I think that so far we have had 750,000, more than that
:35:46. > :35:51.passing through. I can tell you I was in Brussels several times with
:35:52. > :35:58.the European leaders, regarding this issue. And what we were dissatisfied
:35:59. > :36:04.with was that Europe could not find a conference of solution on the
:36:05. > :36:09.migrant crisis. -- a comprehensive solution. We were saying, whatever
:36:10. > :36:12.you say to us, we will deliver. We were the only country that treated
:36:13. > :36:20.those people in a very human way, showing solidarity. You did not see
:36:21. > :36:24.tear gas or batons, or whatever I imagine in Serbia. And only in
:36:25. > :36:28.Serbia. We accepted those people because we had such a terrible
:36:29. > :36:34.experience 20 and 25 years ago, and we knew how those people might feel.
:36:35. > :36:42.But on the other hand, we were also ready to be part of the European
:36:43. > :36:45.solution, including having five or 10,000 people in our country, if
:36:46. > :36:53.they would like to stay in our country. 5000 or 10,000, is that the
:36:54. > :36:57.number? 15,000, it doesn't matter. We would agree. But we are a small
:36:58. > :37:04.Serbia. If we say that, it means that Holland should say, OK, 70
:37:05. > :37:11.80,000. There has been a harsh rhetoric, a more brutal tone coming
:37:12. > :37:15.from some of the Western and Eastern countries. I think it has been less
:37:16. > :37:19.cooperative. Some are saying, hang on, these guys, we let them into the
:37:20. > :37:26.EU and when we need them, they have not been there for us. I don't think
:37:27. > :37:29.it is all about the influx of those people. It is not about the
:37:30. > :37:36.migration crisis. It is also about the internal political issues.
:37:37. > :37:40.People use that. It was very easy to criticise the situation about the
:37:41. > :37:46.migrant crisis, to get political points internally. And that is what
:37:47. > :37:49.we do not do. I don't care about internal political points. We don't
:37:50. > :37:58.care about that. We reacted in a very European way. We will have
:37:59. > :38:04.elections in three months in Serbia, and I will not flatter anybody, by
:38:05. > :38:09.saying that our country has been jeopardised by those people but
:38:10. > :38:16.would like to settle down. No, come on. This is important because your
:38:17. > :38:19.country did have a populist demagogue, and some. We learn
:38:20. > :38:25.something from our own mistakes. It is the best way to learn it. From
:38:26. > :38:29.time to time, it is good to avoid it but we could not. There is talk of
:38:30. > :38:34.various ways that Europe could respond to this. If Germany said,
:38:35. > :38:38.OK, enough is enough and we shut our borders, then what happens? Because
:38:39. > :38:42.you get is backing up of refugees, passing through your country and
:38:43. > :38:48.other countries. We cooperate very closely. And we collaborate with
:38:49. > :38:52.Germany. Very closely. And with all the others. We will do whatever they
:38:53. > :38:57.say to us, whatever would be the European decision. And I say to
:38:58. > :39:02.them, if you would say one day, close the border, but I don't think
:39:03. > :39:08.that would be the best possible solution. I don't agree with it but
:39:09. > :39:14.I will do it if the Europeans would tell us too. You would close your
:39:15. > :39:19.border? If they say to us that would be a good common European solution,
:39:20. > :39:24.we would deliver on that, but we just need to hear what that
:39:25. > :39:26.comprehensive European solution is. Thank you very much.
:39:27. > :39:29.We've heard a lot about red lines in the last few weeks,
:39:30. > :39:33.I know what you're thinking - where's our coverage of white lines?
:39:34. > :39:37.They are, we are told, in danger, as councils
:39:38. > :40:08.White lines, they always seem to have been with us, like queueing and
:40:09. > :40:11.the EU referendum. If you like interesting facts about signage, the
:40:12. > :40:15.white line has been on British roads for about a century. But now more
:40:16. > :40:34.and more of them are disappearing. This was once a busy road near
:40:35. > :40:41.popular museums in London. Today, it is still quite a busy road, albeit
:40:42. > :40:45.with a nice, wide promenade of a pavement. The guidelines are gone.
:40:46. > :40:52.It is an incredible transition. Many viewers will remember years ago how
:40:53. > :40:58.much traffic was on this road and how dangerous it felt as a road. But
:40:59. > :41:03.now, we are standing here and traffic is moving fairly slowly. It
:41:04. > :41:05.has transformed the road. It is a space for everyone to enjoy,
:41:06. > :41:13.families, children, walkers, cyclists. The absence of white lines
:41:14. > :41:16.seems to wake up motorists to the idea that they are the ones
:41:17. > :41:23.responsible for the safety of their cars, all good? Maybe not. The
:41:24. > :41:28.problem is, to do it properly it is very expensive. The scheme cost
:41:29. > :41:32.something like ?40 million and most local highway authorities do not
:41:33. > :41:37.have that money. Just to peel off the white lines? It is more than
:41:38. > :41:42.that, broadening pavements, changing the signing so that there is less
:41:43. > :41:47.clutter, and the pavement texture is better. It costs a lot of money. And
:41:48. > :41:52.often there are few objections. Some of them with good reason. People
:41:53. > :41:56.like the RNIB, who look after blind and partially sighted people, they
:41:57. > :42:01.do not like pavements like this. There is not a curb, so if you are
:42:02. > :42:06.blind or partially sighted, it is easy to walk into the road. You and
:42:07. > :42:10.I are safe drivers but some of them, really... If only this fellow was
:42:11. > :42:14.driving on one of the roads in London on Norfolk where white lines
:42:15. > :42:19.have not been repainted since resurfacing. In East Anglia, they
:42:20. > :42:26.are predicting personal injury accidents could fall by a fifth.
:42:27. > :42:33.This comes after the Dutch pioneered shared space on roads, challenging
:42:34. > :42:39.the presumption of some drivers that they had priority. It works well in
:42:40. > :42:43.those small, medieval Dutch villages where you have more cyclists than
:42:44. > :42:51.cars so you can take away the lines on pavements and slows down. That is
:42:52. > :42:56.pretty different to the bullring in Birmingham or London or streets
:42:57. > :43:00.around Glasgow or Edinburgh, where there is more traffic, and the
:43:01. > :43:05.traffic goes faster. We are not really comparing like with like. It
:43:06. > :43:13.is not about abandoning rules, it is a different way of enforcing them.
:43:14. > :43:18.In an age of reduced funding for police and reduce police
:43:19. > :43:28.enforcement, we need more innovative measures that will make drivers
:43:29. > :43:34.drive slower. But are we nearly losing road markings or great
:43:35. > :43:35.signifiers of cultural importance? Perhaps they are really lines in the
:43:36. > :43:38.sand. We leave you with the latest piece
:43:39. > :43:46.to camera from Youtube travel