:00:00. > :00:09.That American election - it's time for Round 2.
:00:10. > :00:12.Tonight, we're in New Hampshire, watching momentum gather for Bernie
:00:13. > :00:19.I ask Hillary Clinton what she makes of it.
:00:20. > :00:27.Can you just explain for us how you understand the momentum towards
:00:28. > :00:32.Bernie, at the moment? Well, you know, I - let me start by saying, I
:00:33. > :00:33.am really happy to see so many young people involved in the political
:00:34. > :00:35.process. Back in the other big
:00:36. > :00:40.contest of 2016 - Europe. The head of the international crime
:00:41. > :00:42.fighters Europol tells us why If UK is no longer a member
:00:43. > :00:48.of the EU, it wouldn't have the same access to that well regulated,
:00:49. > :00:50.well developed capability. I think, therefore, it would make it
:00:51. > :00:53.harder for Britain to fight The great debate on Europe -
:00:54. > :01:04.how would Mrs Thatcher vote in the referendum, and is it
:01:05. > :01:06.sensible to even speculate Two people close to her tell
:01:07. > :01:17.us what they think. Yes, the state votes tomorrow in its
:01:18. > :01:25.presidential election primary. You will be reminded over the next
:01:26. > :01:28.48 hours that the state slogan is Live Free or Die,
:01:29. > :01:31.and it is a state where the hopes of some of the trailing candidates
:01:32. > :01:36.will surely be brutally murdered. But watch the results carefully,
:01:37. > :01:40.because most new presidents - with the some recent exceptions -
:01:41. > :01:44.have risen to that office after winning the New
:01:45. > :01:47.Hampshire contest. Emily is in Manchester,
:01:48. > :01:53.New Hampshire. Good evening from New Hampshire,
:01:54. > :01:56.where voters are preparing to head for the polls in the first
:01:57. > :01:59.primary of the US election. Over the past few weeks,
:02:00. > :02:02.momentum has been gathering for Bernie Sanders, whose soaring
:02:03. > :02:07.lead over Hillary Clinton brought out a sharp rebuke from
:02:08. > :02:11.Bill Clinton this weekend. The Vermont senator believes
:02:12. > :02:16.in new politics and has begun to attract young,
:02:17. > :02:20.female voters in droves. America's answer to Jereym Corbyn
:02:21. > :02:24.with a Brooklyn accent. Tonight, we ask if the momentum
:02:25. > :02:30.is particular to this state or if the revolution of the left
:02:31. > :02:37.speaks to a wider dissatisfaction with American politcs and the need
:02:38. > :02:40.for long-term change. We start tonight in Sanders' home
:02:41. > :02:46.state, neighbouring Vermont. There are different ways
:02:47. > :02:49.of expressing your commitment to a candidate - the T-shirt,
:02:50. > :02:52.the bumper sticker and then A permanent tattoo
:02:53. > :02:58.of his head on your skin. Here in Bernie Sanders'
:02:59. > :03:01.home state of Vermont, they are offering them free to any
:03:02. > :03:04.supporter who wants one. Sure enough, his fans -
:03:05. > :03:09.let's call them Sandernistas - It's Jenny's turn -
:03:10. > :03:15.she's a psychology student I never voted in a presidential
:03:16. > :03:20.election before. I think that even if he doesn't get
:03:21. > :03:23.the nomination, I think that this is just the beginning
:03:24. > :03:26.of something very, very large. "Bernie's got my back",
:03:27. > :03:32.Danika tells me. She peels off the
:03:33. > :03:34.platter to show me. You don't worry that
:03:35. > :03:38.a tattoo is for life, No, I think actually -
:03:39. > :03:44.to me, because he is such a brave person and, like, his message
:03:45. > :03:47.and what he is doing is so iconic The boss has done more than 70
:03:48. > :03:52.this past week. Have you had any really bizarre
:03:53. > :03:55.requests? A middle finger, and just recently
:03:56. > :04:01.someone wanted the It's a little darker
:04:02. > :04:08.than our lightest roast. It's not just tattoos,
:04:09. > :04:13.it's coffee too. The Capital Grounds Cafe
:04:14. > :04:16.is marketing a new flavour they call They give away 20% of what they make
:04:17. > :04:21.to Sanders' veterans. They come in and buy bags,
:04:22. > :04:26.bags and bags every day. What is striking is the absence
:04:27. > :04:30.a party machine behind all this. It's grass roots activism
:04:31. > :04:32.as its most radical. Small businesses who hear Sanders
:04:33. > :04:35.looking out for them Sanders is the man with
:04:36. > :04:40.the momentum right now. His brand of socialism -
:04:41. > :04:42.anti-Wall Street, pro-income equality and cannabis legalisation -
:04:43. > :04:45.appeals to the young The same kind of crowd that voted
:04:46. > :04:52.for Jeremy Corbyn back in September. With his shock of dishevelled hair
:04:53. > :04:55.and specs, he is embraced - or cultivated - as the grumpy
:04:56. > :05:01.Jewish Brooklyn boy out of Seinfeld. Indeed, its creator Larry David
:05:02. > :05:07.frequently impersonates him. The skit on the satirical
:05:08. > :05:17.Saturday Night Live show plays to the perception his voter base
:05:18. > :05:20.is largely Caucasian. The population of New Hampshire,
:05:21. > :05:23.where he has a massive lead, And that is something
:05:24. > :05:31.Hillary Clinton wants This is her last Town Hall
:05:32. > :05:36.appearance before New Hampshire A stage-managed affair that is meant
:05:37. > :05:42.to seem folksy. For half an hour ahead of the event,
:05:43. > :05:48.they have been trying to fill the camera shot behind her
:05:49. > :05:51.with young Asian and black faces - a subliminal reminder of how much
:05:52. > :05:53.wider her appeal base is. I'm still trying to work out
:05:54. > :05:57.whether the questions are all planted when suddenly
:05:58. > :06:00.she chooses me. Can you just explain for us how
:06:01. > :06:02.you understand the momentum Let me start by saying I am really
:06:03. > :06:08.happy to see so many young people I know Senator Sanders has a very
:06:09. > :06:17.big base of young voters, and they are not supporting me,
:06:18. > :06:21.and I just want any of you, and others that you know,
:06:22. > :06:27.to know I am supporting you. Her husband, the former President,
:06:28. > :06:30.wasn't quite so measured, taking aim at Sanders
:06:31. > :06:32.and his supporters, and his Secretary of
:06:33. > :06:35.State Madeleine Albright then chastised young women
:06:36. > :06:39.for not choosing Hilary. Just remember, there is a special
:06:40. > :06:42.place in hell for women These attacks tell you they
:06:43. > :06:52.are spooked by Sanders, and although no-one will say
:06:53. > :06:55.the words out loud, they worry he may be having the same effect
:06:56. > :06:58.on the young and disaffected that In many states, if you declare
:06:59. > :07:03.as an independent voter you can't vote for a Republican or Democrats
:07:04. > :07:06.in the primary contest, but in New Hampshire
:07:07. > :07:11.that is not the care. As an independent, you can go along
:07:12. > :07:17.on the day and vote for which ever In other words, this particular
:07:18. > :07:21.contest has that whole And it's estimated that as many
:07:22. > :07:26.as 40% could be independents here. As with Obama, it's all
:07:27. > :07:28.about whether Sanders can When you talk to Bernie
:07:29. > :07:34.supporters here in Vermont, they say it's not a fad, a passing
:07:35. > :07:37.phase, they like what he has done to the state here as Senator
:07:38. > :07:40.Sanders, and they feel whether or not he wins
:07:41. > :07:43.the nomination, the movement behind And don't forget New Hampshire
:07:44. > :07:49.is Sanders's backyard. A large block of that progressive
:07:50. > :07:52.white vote and people But from here, the race gets faster,
:07:53. > :08:01.and much more racially diverse. Whether the people of South Carolina
:08:02. > :08:05.will be so ready to feel the burn, well, that is where things start
:08:06. > :08:12.to get interesting. Before we get to South Carolina,
:08:13. > :08:17.there's the voting right here. Well, I'm joined now
:08:18. > :08:21.by Nomiki Konst, a Democratic Party analyst and founder
:08:22. > :08:23.of the anti-corruption group The Accountability Project,
:08:24. > :08:26.who describes herself Also here in New Hampshire we have
:08:27. > :08:30.Joe Klein, political columnist for Time magazine and long-time
:08:31. > :08:36.observer of the Clinton family. Starting with you, you heard
:08:37. > :08:40.Madeleine Allbright's line where she said there is a special circle of
:08:41. > :08:45.hell reserved for women who don't work to help women. She was talking
:08:46. > :08:52.to those Sanders' supporters who are female. I respect Madeleine all
:08:53. > :08:56.bright. She's a crusader for women all around the world. I enjoy that
:08:57. > :09:02.quote when it's used in different ways. I don't think that's the right
:09:03. > :09:06.setting. Other Hillary supporters have said that has well. The problem
:09:07. > :09:09.with the millennium femme nists is that they don't feel included in the
:09:10. > :09:12.process. They feel that the institution of the Democratic Party
:09:13. > :09:16.has been running candidates that are out of touch with their concerns and
:09:17. > :09:20.their needs and they weren't there to fight for them in key moments,
:09:21. > :09:23.because they were more concerned with winning, more concerned with
:09:24. > :09:26.working with the other side. Working with the other side is very
:09:27. > :09:33.important, but you have to have a back bone. So, from my perspective
:09:34. > :09:38.as a Bernie supporters, I support him because he's attacking the root
:09:39. > :09:41.cause of income inequality, the root cause of gender inequality. That's
:09:42. > :09:46.Wall Street. They're campaigning against equal pay. When you see the
:09:47. > :09:49.big guns coming out, Clinton, Allbright, Hillary Clinton doesn't
:09:50. > :09:54.need those people... Is she a big gun? I thought what she said is
:09:55. > :10:02.outrageous. She wouldn't say that about Marine Le Pen would she? She
:10:03. > :10:06.was just saying it about Bernie and about Hillary. Feminism has been the
:10:07. > :10:13.most successful political movement in my lifetime. We're going to see a
:10:14. > :10:15.woman president before very long. Women are markedly
:10:16. > :10:20.woman president before very long. I can tell you that. To even -
:10:21. > :10:27.that's so 25 years ago what she said. Why are the women, I know the
:10:28. > :10:31.tattoo parlour is not represented, but a lot of young women coming in
:10:32. > :10:36.and they're all talking about Bernie Sanders, not Hillary Clinton, when
:10:37. > :10:41.Shh... It should be -- should be "her moment". Millenniums are very
:10:42. > :10:46.familiar with her. She's been part of their lives since they were born.
:10:47. > :10:50.They are looking for a woman to rise up. It would be important for the
:10:51. > :10:57.Democratic Party to take note. We need a bench of women, not just one
:10:58. > :11:01.woman or three women. I agree on some points, are superior, but we
:11:02. > :11:06.have a lot of work to do. Similar to LGBT issues. They've had a very
:11:07. > :11:11.successful campaign. Women have been fighting for 25 years who aren't
:11:12. > :11:17.ready to move over. I want to talk about the actual campaign. We're
:11:18. > :11:20.hearing now from politicalo, that Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton are
:11:21. > :11:24.not happy with the way it's going, there's going to be strategy
:11:25. > :11:29.changes. That's never happened before (! ) Every single campaign.
:11:30. > :11:33.What they're talking about is some dissatisfaction with their pollster.
:11:34. > :11:37.They fired their pollster in the last election. They go through
:11:38. > :11:43.pollsters the way through people go through underwear. This is a pretty
:11:44. > :11:50.classic Clinton campaign. The problem, her big problem is this:
:11:51. > :11:55.She was, when she was in her youth, she was the moral equivalent of a
:11:56. > :12:01.Bernie Sanders supporter. She supported George McGovern. She
:12:02. > :12:04.worked for him in Texas. I asked her what would you, how would you
:12:05. > :12:11.convince the younger version of yourself to vote for you now? And it
:12:12. > :12:16.isn't an easy answer. Her strengths is the fact that she works like a
:12:17. > :12:20.dog. She knows an awful lot. She knows the world in a way that Bernie
:12:21. > :12:24.doesn't. And those are tough things to get across to younger people. Is
:12:25. > :12:28.this the beginning of a game changer? When we talk about
:12:29. > :12:32.momentum, this is the kind of momentum that we saw for Obama in
:12:33. > :12:36.2008, reaching voters that nobody had reached before. But the
:12:37. > :12:43.difference is that Barack Obama was a moderate. Hillary was to his left
:12:44. > :12:48.on health care, if you remember. In this case, we'll see what happens.
:12:49. > :12:53.I've seen this happen once in my lifetime, that was George McGovern.
:12:54. > :12:57.As a result the Democratic Party was ruined for 20 years. The difference
:12:58. > :13:02.is there, just to make note, the country was a much more conservative
:13:03. > :13:05.country in the 60s. Today the country is more progressive on
:13:06. > :13:09.social issues. That's where the cue for the Democratic Party is. They
:13:10. > :13:13.need to move further to the left, not start at the middle and
:13:14. > :13:16.negotiate to the left. I think social issues are not what this
:13:17. > :13:20.campaign will be about. The Republicans are moving to the left
:13:21. > :13:28.on things like gay marriage, scurrying to the left. What we have
:13:29. > :13:30.to be thinking about is how do you counteract a nativist,
:13:31. > :13:34.anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim movement. Just over there, Donald
:13:35. > :13:38.Trump's having a rally tonight and there are going to be thousands of
:13:39. > :13:43.people there. Do you think that's where the Republican nomination is
:13:44. > :13:46.going to end up? I don't know if he can win it. They have about a third
:13:47. > :13:49.of their constituents in his corner. The rest of the party will have to
:13:50. > :13:54.consolidate against that. I think that whoever gets the nomination is
:13:55. > :14:00.going to move in that direction toward a kind of nativist,
:14:01. > :14:04.anti-immigrant, no nothing, what the movement has historically been
:14:05. > :14:12.called here -- know nothing. Do we think we will see Michael Bloomberg
:14:13. > :14:18.enter the race? There's only one thing that he would do if he came
:14:19. > :14:22.into this race, if it was Trump versus Bernie sort of race, he would
:14:23. > :14:27.elect Donald Trump president. That would truly be tragic. I don't know
:14:28. > :14:31.about that. Nothing is worse than having two billionaires in the race
:14:32. > :14:41.talking about income inequality. Good point. Hey, I won one! In six
:14:42. > :14:45.hours' time, the polls open here. There are tiny places, about 35
:14:46. > :14:48.voters in all there, but they will be the first ones to go to the polls
:14:49. > :14:50.and those results will probably be in by the time you wake up tomorrow
:14:51. > :14:53.morning. David Cameron's reported pro-EU
:14:54. > :14:55.referendum campaign is apparently going to focus on security -
:14:56. > :14:58.or scaring the hell out of people Today, for example, he said EU
:14:59. > :15:05.withdrawal could help terrorists by undermining European
:15:06. > :15:09.security co-operation. Not that the campaign has started
:15:10. > :15:12.yet, you understand. Now it so happens that the man
:15:13. > :15:14.responsible for security cooperation He's a Brit called Rob Wainright,
:15:15. > :15:19.and he's the director of Europol, But before we got on to that,
:15:20. > :15:39.we discussed a more down-to-earth problem on his mind,
:15:40. > :15:42.the small matter of big banknotes - The issue is: Who are
:15:43. > :15:45.high-denomination notes for, except drug dealers,
:15:46. > :15:47.money launderers, human traffickers and
:15:48. > :15:49.organised criminals? Today, an eminent former banker
:15:50. > :15:51.published a paper arguing These high-denomination banknotes
:15:52. > :15:57.are no longer used very much They're used for a tiny
:15:58. > :16:03.percentage of transactions. However, they are the preferred
:16:04. > :16:08.means of payment for criminals, tax evaders, terrorists
:16:09. > :16:10.and those who are giving No-one can say
:16:11. > :16:17.they weren't warned. Whereas a million quid in 50 pound
:16:18. > :16:26.notes has the bulk of say, A million quid in euros
:16:27. > :16:29.will be smaller than one. Crime fighters like Europol's Rob
:16:30. > :16:37.Wainright think it's an important issue - as he explained when I sat
:16:38. > :16:41.down with him earlier. Why does anyone need a 500 euro
:16:42. > :16:44.note, given that most of us have I would be surprised
:16:45. > :16:48.if many of the viewers have seen one or done a business
:16:49. > :16:49.transaction in one. To be fair, in some eurozone
:16:50. > :16:52.countries like Germany, there is a different cultural
:16:53. > :16:53.background and practise That doesn't explain why,
:16:54. > :16:58.when we are moving to generally a cashless economy, the amount
:16:59. > :17:00.of 500 euro notes that have been produced and circulated
:17:01. > :17:03.is still increasing year on year, and accounts for one third
:17:04. > :17:05.of the value of all euro You know, these are big issues
:17:06. > :17:10.to be explained away. You must be a bit annoyed
:17:11. > :17:16.about Luxembourg in particular, I think produced almost
:17:17. > :17:19.twice its GDP in 500 euro That is an extraordinary bit of note
:17:20. > :17:25.issue by Luxembourg. Our report showed that,
:17:26. > :17:27.but across the eurozone as a whole, you know, we didn't really get
:17:28. > :17:30.information that satisfied us as to what the legitimate use was,
:17:31. > :17:34.while we are getting more and more evidence of the way
:17:35. > :17:38.in which criminals are using it in particular, so I think serious
:17:39. > :17:43.questions are being asked. A lot of evidence now,
:17:44. > :17:46.and I hope the European Central Bank will take a long hard
:17:47. > :17:48.look at this issue. It is interesting that we got
:17:49. > :17:51.into this in the first place, though, because it was predicted
:17:52. > :17:54.by some, it was talked about that this was going to be
:17:55. > :17:56.something that would happen, you were creating something much
:17:57. > :17:59.bigger than the 100 dollar bill, which might have been the currency
:18:00. > :18:02.of choice until the euro came along, It is odd that the Europeans allowed
:18:03. > :18:07.this to happen. What I am presenting is simply
:18:08. > :18:13.the view from the police world, about how we see this as something
:18:14. > :18:16.that is definitely facilitating criminal,
:18:17. > :18:20.and to a certain extent activity. Terrorism, obviously,
:18:21. > :18:23.a global phenomenon. In Europe there are National Police
:18:24. > :18:26.forces and then Europol sits But you don't have the power
:18:27. > :18:33.to arrest people, do you? No, instead we provide
:18:34. > :18:35.an intelligence gateway that connects over 600 different agencies
:18:36. > :18:39.exchanging intelligence That allows us to track better
:18:40. > :18:43.what is increasingly Britain is in the early stage
:18:44. > :18:49.of a debate about whether it should be in the European Union,
:18:50. > :18:52.and one of the reasons many people don't want to be is they feel
:18:53. > :18:55.there is a creeping pace So you are saying, if we stay in,
:18:56. > :19:00.you do not think it will happen, that we will get a European police
:19:01. > :19:03.force, that British voters will not be able to control
:19:04. > :19:08.or have any sway over? No, we have just reformed Europol
:19:09. > :19:11.and given it a new legal framework and it is not as a European FBI,
:19:12. > :19:15.it is something that is very operational in nature,
:19:16. > :19:17.in terms of giving them tools that the national authorities need
:19:18. > :19:20.to fight fight crime and terrorism. You know, and the current
:19:21. > :19:22.British Government has consciously opted into that new version
:19:23. > :19:24.of European police force - European police cross-border
:19:25. > :19:26.cooperation centre, because it has decided that is what it needs
:19:27. > :19:29.in the face of an increased international threat
:19:30. > :19:39.from terrorism and crime. David Cameron has warned that
:19:40. > :19:41.Britain might lose information on what I think he called
:19:42. > :19:44."terrorists running round Europe". I think what the Prime Minister's
:19:45. > :19:51.referring to, of course, is the extent to which over the last
:19:52. > :19:55.three or four decades there has developed in Europe a sophisticated
:19:56. > :19:57.architecture for sharing intelligence, and co-operating
:19:58. > :19:59.in the fight against Europol alone, we are helping
:20:00. > :20:06.to co-ordinate 40,000 cases I think if the UK is no
:20:07. > :20:10.longer a member of the UK, it wouldn't have the same access
:20:11. > :20:12.to that well-regulated, I think, therefore, it would make it
:20:13. > :20:18.harder for Britain to fight I am sure Britain can respond
:20:19. > :20:21.with alternative arrangements, but they will be more costly,
:20:22. > :20:24.and they will not be as effective, I think that is probably
:20:25. > :20:30.what the Prime Minister is saying. There has been some talk
:20:31. > :20:33.about the Norwegian model of not The Norwegians, they are not
:20:34. > :20:36.full members of Europol but they have an association
:20:37. > :20:38.agreement with Europol that puts Well, certainly not in the middle,
:20:39. > :20:47.at the periphery, because they are not full members,
:20:48. > :20:49.so they don't have direct access to database in the way the UK
:20:50. > :20:52.currently has, they are not leading any intelligence projects,
:20:53. > :20:54.they don't have people So you know, it's a model
:20:55. > :20:58.of membership, but as I said earlier, certainly not one
:20:59. > :21:01.that is as effective as the one that the UK and other member
:21:02. > :21:04.states currently enjoy. Are you going to be public about how
:21:05. > :21:08.you will vote in the referendum? I think people listening
:21:09. > :21:10.to you will probably draw their own conclusions
:21:11. > :21:12.and believe they know how you will vote, but will you be
:21:13. > :21:15.public, or will you stand back This is not about me,
:21:16. > :21:20.this is about the future of Britain in Europe,
:21:21. > :21:22.and in this particular part of it, about making sure
:21:23. > :21:25.that we have the most secure platform to protect British
:21:26. > :21:27.businesses, and citizens from ever more dangerous threats of terrorism
:21:28. > :21:30.and other forms of serious crime. Of course I will be voting
:21:31. > :21:34.for the UK to remain part of the EU because of what I see on an every
:21:35. > :21:37.day basis about the benefits, and particularly in my world,
:21:38. > :21:43.that the UK is getting from the EU. Rob Wainwright, thanks
:21:44. > :21:49.for your company. You might have thought the Syrian
:21:50. > :21:52.war had reached a kind of stalemate. Well, in the last few days,
:21:53. > :21:54.things have changed. With Russian help, the Assad
:21:55. > :21:56.government has made gains, and it is causing problems
:21:57. > :21:58.for refugees, for Turkey, where they want to escape
:21:59. > :22:01.to and possibly for Europe beyond. Our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban,
:22:02. > :22:18.reports on the changing situation In fighting round Aleppo, Syria's
:22:19. > :22:23.biggest city, President Assad's forces have been making progress.
:22:24. > :22:26.Supported by hundreds of Russian air strikes, they have taken the
:22:27. > :22:33.initiative just as diplomacy has stalled.
:22:34. > :22:38.We saw during the last week, during the last several days they have
:22:39. > :22:42.basically waited to the failure of the negotiation process, I can
:22:43. > :22:48.assume within a certain time period, if the Russians managed to, well, to
:22:49. > :22:52.put enough military pressure on this Saudi supported opposition, and if
:22:53. > :22:55.they agree to launch a negotiation process, probably we will see the
:22:56. > :22:59.intensity of fighting on the ground going down.
:23:00. > :23:03.Since last autumn, the Syrian Army, with Russian air support has been
:23:04. > :23:07.engaging in a multi-pronged offensive. By November, they had
:23:08. > :23:11.broken through to an air base south-east of Aleppo, in January
:23:12. > :23:17.they started making gains in a province and a couple of days ago,
:23:18. > :23:21.cut the rebel corridor into Aleppo. All of this bombing and ground
:23:22. > :23:25.fighting has led hundreds of thousands to leave their homes, some
:23:26. > :23:28.estimates put it as high as three-quarters of a million people,
:23:29. > :23:36.with anything up to ?100,000 thousand moving in the past week.
:23:37. > :23:39.Week. Into an area south of Turkey. That all exacerbates tensions
:23:40. > :23:45.between their Government and Russia. Since the Downing of Russian plane
:23:46. > :23:52.by Turkey, because of its violation of the Turkish airspace last
:23:53. > :23:58.October, the relationship between Ankara and Moscow has become
:23:59. > :24:03.confrontational. So much so, it is now functioning as a dePacteau safe
:24:04. > :24:10.zone against Turkey. That is limiting Turkey's ability to project
:24:11. > :24:13.power across the border. As for how many people are trapped, between
:24:14. > :24:19.advancing pro Assad forces on the Turkish border, it is certainly in
:24:20. > :24:23.the tens of thousands. Turkey has stopped them coming in, caught
:24:24. > :24:31.between this fresh humanitarian crisis, and apprenticeship to stop
:24:32. > :24:34.refugees moving on to Europe. Chancellor Merkel visiting Turkey
:24:35. > :24:40.today, vented her frustration with the Syrian Government, and its
:24:41. > :24:44.Russian backers. TRANSLATION: We are now over the
:24:45. > :24:48.last few days not only appalled by shocked by the human suffering is of
:24:49. > :24:51.tens of thousands of people through bombing attack, and also bombing
:24:52. > :24:58.attacks originating from the Russian side.
:24:59. > :25:02.As to what people are fleeing, the UN panel today reported on gross
:25:03. > :25:07.human rights abuses by all sides in the Syrian conflict. It accused the
:25:08. > :25:12.Government of crimes against humanity and called for sanctions
:25:13. > :25:19.against senior Syrian officials. The mass scale of deaths suggests that
:25:20. > :25:23.the Government of Syria is responsible for acts that amount to
:25:24. > :25:28.crimes against humanity. Turkey may well have to open its border to let
:25:29. > :25:32.in the new wave of refugees, ideas of establishing a safe haven inside
:25:33. > :25:37.Syria long favoured by the Turkish Government now seem to have been
:25:38. > :25:42.forgotten. There is a very real risk that creating that type of buffer
:25:43. > :25:47.zone could spark conflict between Turkey and Russia R We are dealing
:25:48. > :25:52.with two political systems headed by the leaders who sometimes are led
:25:53. > :25:57.not by the logic of the event, not by the pragmatism, but I would say
:25:58. > :26:03.by the way, how they feel, by their passion.
:26:04. > :26:08.There are some, in western foreign defence ministries who privately
:26:09. > :26:12.hope Russia's backing of President Assad might finely brings the Civil
:26:13. > :26:15.War to an end. So far it is up to the suffering without a clear
:26:16. > :26:18.The Daily Mail writer Peter Oborne has just returned from Syria's
:26:19. > :26:20.largest city - or once largest - Aleppo.
:26:21. > :26:21.He's written vividly about the destruction
:26:22. > :26:28.and destitution he found there, and he's with me now.
:26:29. > :26:35.Thank you for coming in. We have some of the photos which we will
:26:36. > :26:39.show awe you speak, but it is amazing you can get in and find a
:26:40. > :26:44.hotel to stay in when you are there Yes, it is a difficult journey from
:26:45. > :26:49.Damascus but they have re-opened the road in. They have lifted the siege
:26:50. > :26:54.of Aleppo, you are able to get in, and there is a hotel called the pull
:26:55. > :27:03.man hotel, freezing cold, very damp, I was the only guest there, apart
:27:04. > :27:08.from a French TV journalist, and no hot water. There is electricity
:27:09. > :27:14.about eight hours a day I reckoned. The internet doesn't work so you are
:27:15. > :27:17.pretty isolated. The population of Aleppo is, it has plummeted. It is
:27:18. > :27:25.less than half what it was. It is shocking. You get a sense of a city
:27:26. > :27:30.where the population has gone, and particularly among the Christians,
:27:31. > :27:32.down from about 200,000, before the crisis, wonderful ancient Christian
:27:33. > :27:39.community going down. We are looking at some of the pictures there. The
:27:40. > :27:45.rubble left. Empty streets. My regime minder took that. I wandered
:27:46. > :27:52.round. The Christian population down from 200,000 to about 20,000. I
:27:53. > :27:56.talked to the pastors, desperate to get their congregations to stay, and
:27:57. > :28:00.the imams desperate to get them to stay but it is very hard. Who has
:28:01. > :28:06.stayed? There are still hundreds of thousands of people in Aleppo, who
:28:07. > :28:12.are they? Almost everybody seems to be a government employee, teachers,
:28:13. > :28:16.lots and lots of refugees, from the east of the city, who fled news a or
:28:17. > :28:22.the Free Syrian Army. They fled the rebels to get into the Government
:28:23. > :28:28.part. Aleppo university, there are 20 great big dormitory block, 17 are
:28:29. > :28:34.full of refugees, ten or 20 to a little room for two people, and I
:28:35. > :28:40.wandered round there. So like Agatha Christie's hotel where she wrote her
:28:41. > :28:45.novel, the Baron Hotel the refugee, they have harrowing stories. You
:28:46. > :28:51.said no basic amenities in your hotel. What about important
:28:52. > :28:56.amenities like drinking water? Yes, there is no water, running water
:28:57. > :29:03.coming into Aleppo. It is the plant has been stopped by Isis, and so
:29:04. > :29:07.what you see everywhere is digging wells, people carting water round,
:29:08. > :29:11.and, it is a huge expense, because you have to buy it from the private
:29:12. > :29:15.sector because state water has gone. You say the siege, it is not under
:29:16. > :29:19.siege, because people think of Aleppo being under siege but it has
:29:20. > :29:23.not. It has been reported widely. What has happened, this is the urn
:29:24. > :29:28.thing point probably of the war s that the Turkish border, the supply
:29:29. > :29:34.line to Isis, news racks, to the Jihadi groups and the FSA has been
:29:35. > :29:40.blocked and it has been encircled by the Syrian army, plus with the great
:29:41. > :29:46.help from the Russian, and so it is alnews a is under siege now, instead
:29:47. > :29:50.of the other way round, and, Aleppo was under siege most of the winner,
:29:51. > :29:55.nobody reported that, you couldn't get in or out from Damascus or
:29:56. > :29:59.anywhere else. Now it is suddenly, the, the opposition forces who are
:30:00. > :30:00.being besieged, that becomes a story, it tells you which side the
:30:01. > :30:08.media has been on. You met an interesting journalist
:30:09. > :30:14.when you were there, tell us his story. Yes a wonderful old boy. I
:30:15. > :30:20.asked, "Where's the newspaper? I was told there's one paper left. There
:30:21. > :30:27.had been 35. This old boy started out in 1960, 35 papers. I went into
:30:28. > :30:35.his office, up some old smelly stairs. He said, his story was, it
:30:36. > :30:40.was a daily paper, flourishing before the war. A weekly paper then,
:30:41. > :30:44.paper shortages. The journalists started to get threatened. They go
:30:45. > :30:49.on the net. There's no internet. Right and they told me they do it
:30:50. > :30:55.through 3 G, that's beyond me. It's a mobile thing. You go there, you
:30:56. > :30:59.see it with your own eyes, we've been hearing about it, in just a few
:31:00. > :31:06.sentences, has it changed your view of anything, your way of looking at
:31:07. > :31:10.the conflict at all? You meet these amazing stories of heroism, for
:31:11. > :31:16.instance, I went to the Education Department. I met this teacher. She
:31:17. > :31:23.spent five days making her journey which before the war had taken 40
:31:24. > :31:28.minutes to get from east Aleppo and, to get her wages. She was going to
:31:29. > :31:32.go back. Isis-held area. She said Syrian forces were advancing and
:31:33. > :31:36.will shortly reach it. She said, "I will be held along with my husband
:31:37. > :31:41.and children as a human shield." And she was going back. The heroism, I
:31:42. > :31:44.felt, just the stoicism and bravery and you're always meeting - the
:31:45. > :31:45.doctors were wonderful in the hospital. You meet these incredible
:31:46. > :31:49.people. Thank you very much. Celebrity endorsement
:31:50. > :31:51.is likely to play some part But what about the endorsements
:31:52. > :31:56.from beyond the grave? A strange battle has opened up
:31:57. > :31:59.on how Margaret Thatcher would vote It was prompted by a piece
:32:00. > :32:04.in the Sunday Times from her former The debate maybe gives us more
:32:05. > :32:13.insight into the opinions of those arguing about it, than of
:32:14. > :32:15.the Iron Lady herself. Our political editor,
:32:16. > :32:25.David Grossman, has been looking Trying to work out what Kier Hardy
:32:26. > :32:30.would have made of Twitter or basha kan castle's view of the Qatar World
:32:31. > :32:37.Cup seems like a dull parlour game. One deceased boll Titian's view of
:32:38. > :32:41.-- politician's view of matters is now sought. If you want to own a bit
:32:42. > :32:44.of Mrs Thatcher history you could worse than this place, her London
:32:45. > :32:49.residence after she left Downing Street. On the market for something
:32:50. > :32:54.like ?30 million. But her political legacy is priceless, worth far more
:32:55. > :32:58.to the remain campaign and leave campaign, each side in the
:32:59. > :33:03.referendum wants to claim that she would have voted their way. Writing
:33:04. > :33:07.in the Sunday Times yesterday, her former advisor suggested she might
:33:08. > :33:10.have raged more mightily during the negotiations than David Cameron, but
:33:11. > :33:14.ultimately she would have gone along with what is on offer, indeed
:33:15. > :33:19.negotiated something similar herself in. Reply, Lord young, who served in
:33:20. > :33:27.Mrs Thatcher's Cabinet said, "If Margaret were with us today she may
:33:28. > :33:30.not lead Brexit, she may cajole the campaign leaders to get their act
:33:31. > :33:36.together and when the day came would vote out." So what's the truth? Who
:33:37. > :33:41.better to adjudicate than the man she chose to write her story. As her
:33:42. > :33:44.biographer, I always make sure never to say what Margaret Thatcher would
:33:45. > :33:48.have done because I don't know. What I do know is what she did do. It's
:33:49. > :33:54.interesting that people want to raise this question all the time. I
:33:55. > :34:00.understand why. Because she went on a long journey about Europe, which
:34:01. > :34:06.had many rocky places and pit falls. She learned a lot. She changed her
:34:07. > :34:11.mind quite a lot. The starting point of that journey found form in
:34:12. > :34:16.knitwear, campaigning here in 1975 for Britain to stay in what was then
:34:17. > :34:21.the European economic community. It's very fitting that you should
:34:22. > :34:26.keep an all-night vigil, under the statue of Sir Winston Churchill, the
:34:27. > :34:33.first person to have the great vision of working together for peace
:34:34. > :34:38.in Europe. But as the European project became more about political
:34:39. > :34:46.union and pooled sovereignty, Margaret Thatcher famously resisted.
:34:47. > :34:49.No, no, no. She came very much to dislike European methods of doing
:34:50. > :34:54.business. She thought this is a male club. This is a load of men having
:34:55. > :34:58.dinner to decide everything, the fate of the people. You don't know
:34:59. > :35:04.what department she is. I tell you, you don't know what department she
:35:05. > :35:09.is. Her lecture before the first course, caused some surprise... I
:35:10. > :35:19.made mistakes and I learned to fight. And I win. She became opposed
:35:20. > :35:25.to the single currency and advocated a wider and looser European Union,
:35:26. > :35:29.incorporating the newly emancipated Eastern Bloc countries. She never
:35:30. > :35:33.advocated leaving the European Community as it was then, the whole
:35:34. > :35:37.time she was in office. She did advocate that after she left office,
:35:38. > :35:41.only privately. She said it to me, for example, and to many others. She
:35:42. > :35:45.was advised that at that stage of her career, it would be too
:35:46. > :35:49.explosive and difficult and she was too old and not terribly well and
:35:50. > :35:53.all that sort of thing, it was really too late. But this is what
:35:54. > :35:59.she came to believe. That contrasts between how she felt in office and
:36:00. > :36:04.how she felt after retiring is an interesting one. Why does this
:36:05. > :36:08.matter in in the crowd to wave off Margaret Thatcher from central
:36:09. > :36:14.office on her last visit as PM was a young David Cameron. He cheered her
:36:15. > :36:18.enthusiastically then. But plenty of his party's activists and supporters
:36:19. > :36:23.now still trust her instincts on Europe more than his. So summoning
:36:24. > :36:28.up a Thatcher endorsement for his deal would be precious indeed.
:36:29. > :36:31.With me now are Lord Powell, private secretary and advisor
:36:32. > :36:36.on foreign affairs and defense to Margaret Thatcher from 1983-91,
:36:37. > :36:39.and Annunziata Rees-Mogg, a Eurosceptic and Conservative Party
:36:40. > :36:53.Good evening. Some have criticised you for Daning to say what she would
:36:54. > :36:58.have thought when none of us really know. You have to admit, none of us
:36:59. > :37:02.knows. Anyone bothered to read my article, the third sentence says,
:37:03. > :37:06."we can't possibly know" it's not as though I didn't realise that. A
:37:07. > :37:09.Cabinet minister said to me, look, I can't go along with this. Margaret
:37:10. > :37:13.Thatcher would never have agrowed to it. That made me sit down and think.
:37:14. > :37:17.I'm in the a member of any campaign. I'm not for, against. I'm not a
:37:18. > :37:21.political party member. I just thought about. It I thought about
:37:22. > :37:25.her history in Europe. Much of it came out in your film. She was in
:37:26. > :37:31.the Government that took us into Europe. She led the Conservative
:37:32. > :37:35.Party campaign to stay in Europe at the last referendum. She could have
:37:36. > :37:40.decided then we should come out. No, she was enthusiastic, in favour. For
:37:41. > :37:43.12 years as Prime Minister she fought, by God how she fought, to
:37:44. > :37:47.get advantages for Britain in Europe and change Europe in ways that
:37:48. > :37:50.suited Britain. It's not really very surprising that one thinks that
:37:51. > :37:54.maybe she would opt to stay in Europe and go on trying to change it
:37:55. > :37:57.for the better. For the record, are you going to vote or support the
:37:58. > :38:05.remain side in the campaign? I don't know. I will see what's on offer. I
:38:06. > :38:08.had assumed you were really learning your opinion of the referendum.
:38:09. > :38:10.No-one's interested in my opinion, but I thought they might be
:38:11. > :38:14.interested in what might be Margaret Thatcher's. Do you buy what we've
:38:15. > :38:16.just heard? I don't think we can know. I agrow
:38:17. > :38:20.just heard? I don't think we can sentence, I don't think we should
:38:21. > :38:23.invoke the dead, whether it's Churchill, Maggie Thatcher or other
:38:24. > :38:28.wonderful politicians in this country or on the other side if you
:38:29. > :38:32.want to invoke that Hitler wanted a united Europe. These are ridiculous
:38:33. > :38:38.things that we just can't know. How should she have voted? Let's think
:38:39. > :38:43.of Thatcherism as an ethos, not just what she thought, how should a
:38:44. > :38:47.Thatcherite vote? In my view of Thatcher's legacy is to believe this
:38:48. > :38:52.the sovereignty of our nation and the freedom of the individual. And
:38:53. > :39:00.to believe incredibly strongly in democracy. In my view, you cannot
:39:01. > :39:04.have democracy without a demos and Europe has no dome hose to back up a
:39:05. > :39:08.democracy. We have to lock out for our own nation and have this
:39:09. > :39:14.referendum where one man, one vote and see what the result S A couple
:39:15. > :39:20.of comments, I think you're being a little severe. We frequently cite
:39:21. > :39:27.19th century politician's views on foreign policy issues. We cite
:39:28. > :39:33.Canning... We saw Mr Thatcher invoking... It's totally
:39:34. > :39:37.permissible. I think quoting someone and speculating as to what they
:39:38. > :39:41.would do in different situations are two very different things. In some
:39:42. > :39:50.ways isn't it interesting, because if you see the EU as a free trade
:39:51. > :39:54.thing, with a lot of what people, Thatcher's disposition would say is
:39:55. > :39:59.annoying baggage, but free trade thing. Or you might see it as a lot
:40:00. > :40:03.of annoying baggage with a bit of free trade. Is that the schism
:40:04. > :40:08.between different this afternoonerites? I think it's --
:40:09. > :40:13.Thatcherites. I think it's more pernicious. It's a lack of
:40:14. > :40:17.democratic answerability. It's a superpower trying to control our
:40:18. > :40:22.nation. It's removing our freedom to control our borders, ultimately it
:40:23. > :40:25.will remove our controls on our own financial systems and the ever
:40:26. > :40:29.closer union has not been removed from the treaties under this
:40:30. > :40:33.renegotiation. It is there and that's the direction Europe will be
:40:34. > :40:37.heading. I think Margaret Thatcher saw being in Europe largely as
:40:38. > :40:41.strategic terms. Particularly at a time when we were threatened by the
:40:42. > :40:46.Soviet Union. She believed in drawing together the European
:40:47. > :40:50.countries. Of course in Nato for defence purposes, but in EU to be
:40:51. > :40:54.sure we didn't go to war with each other again in the future and we
:40:55. > :40:58.were a solid block. That was a sensible thing to add to the trade
:40:59. > :41:01.aspect of. It she saw it as an organisation which produced specific
:41:02. > :41:07.advantages for Britain. She would now, I believe, see that we have
:41:08. > :41:10.managed to get out of so many of the unpleasant bits of Europe, the
:41:11. > :41:16.things that you object to. You know, we are not in the single currency.
:41:17. > :41:21.We are not in the Schengen union. We are only about half members any way.
:41:22. > :41:26.Why such a great objection to being semidetached members. Can I ask a
:41:27. > :41:28.quick question on the issue of, could there be a British
:41:29. > :41:33.Parliamentary block on issues coming out of the EU. Boris Johnson seems
:41:34. > :41:38.behind that. Does that work? I don't believe it can work, no. It's a
:41:39. > :41:42.chalice that the faithful have sought for a long time. The fact is,
:41:43. > :41:44.if we reach agreements, they are international agreements, they're
:41:45. > :41:49.binding agreements, they're registered with the UN. Sadly, I
:41:50. > :41:54.think in terms of law, then - You can't pick and choose. Parliament
:41:55. > :41:58.remains supreme. They could denounce the treaty and we could exit. You
:41:59. > :42:08.can't have bits of it. Thank you both very much.
:42:09. > :42:10.James O'Brien is here tomorrow. Until then, very good night.