:00:00. > :00:07.The Health Secretary tells us he had no choice but to impose a contract
:00:08. > :00:21.What is the alternative? The alternative here is that in the face
:00:22. > :00:26.of a union that militarily refuses to negotiate how we can improve care
:00:27. > :00:31.for patients that week ends, I just go away.
:00:32. > :00:34.The doctors threaten a brain drain - and say he's alienated
:00:35. > :00:38.Predicted by EInstein a century go, Scientists finally detect
:00:39. > :00:40.gravitational waves - that change the sound
:00:41. > :00:43.Tonight we speak to one of the scientists who worked
:00:44. > :00:48.And we're in Colombia, where a 21st century plague
:00:49. > :01:06.So, this is Zika almost at its worst. You can see the restraint on
:01:07. > :01:09.this patient's arms, his name is Edwin, and the oxygen pipe is
:01:10. > :01:18.feeding oxygen into his lungs because he can't breathe on his own.
:01:19. > :01:24.It was arguably not the day for the Health Secretary to announce
:01:25. > :01:25.a review into junior doctors' morale.
:01:26. > :01:27.Junior doctors, by and large, are quite good at spelling
:01:28. > :01:31.And if morale is low, they know who they blame.
:01:32. > :01:33.This morning Jeremy Hunt took the unprecedented and radical step
:01:34. > :01:35.of imposing a new contract on thousands of medics
:01:36. > :01:40.across England after negotiations between the Government
:01:41. > :01:45.He had, he insisted, included many concessions that had
:01:46. > :01:46.been chief stumbling blocks between the sides.
:01:47. > :01:49.But the Shadow Health Secretary called the move a sign of failure,
:01:50. > :01:52.the British Medical Association said he'd risked alienating a whole
:01:53. > :01:54.generation of doctors, some of whom would now vote
:01:55. > :02:04.And some hospital chiefs who signed a letter of agreement with the
:02:05. > :02:06.contract later stated they hadn't agreed with the imposition.
:02:07. > :02:10.So is there a real risk of a brain drain in the NHS now?
:02:11. > :02:12.And what happens to patients when trust breaks down
:02:13. > :02:14.between the Health Secretary and his NHS staff?
:02:15. > :02:17.The dispute over the new junior doctors contract for England
:02:18. > :02:22.Tonight these junior doctors met on Whitehall to respond to the fact
:02:23. > :02:31.that a new contract is being imposed on them.
:02:32. > :02:34.After years of rumbling along and two strikes,
:02:35. > :02:36.the Government has taken the advice of its lead
:02:37. > :02:38.negotiator to end talks with the doctors' union.
:02:39. > :02:41.He has asked me to end the uncertainty for the service
:02:42. > :02:42.by proceeding with the introduction of
:02:43. > :02:45.a new contract that he and his colleagues consider both safer
:02:46. > :02:46.for patients and fair and reasonable for
:02:47. > :02:52.What exactly is this dispute between the Government
:02:53. > :02:57.It has been running for a few years but it has
:02:58. > :03:00.come to a head in the last year because the Tories were elected last
:03:01. > :03:03.May on a pledge to introduce what they call a seven-day NHS.
:03:04. > :03:07.In short, hospitals should offer more
:03:08. > :03:10.services at the weekend, and to do that, they say they need
:03:11. > :03:12.to change the contracts for the 50,000 or so
:03:13. > :03:15.junior doctors so that it is cheaper to employ them during the weekend.
:03:16. > :03:18.This is the current period when junior doctors get normal
:03:19. > :03:25.It runs from 7am until 7pm on weekdays.
:03:26. > :03:30.Under the new proposals, normal evenings would end
:03:31. > :03:33.later, at 9pm, and working on a Saturday would also not attract
:03:34. > :03:36.overtime, so doctors will get a boost to their basic pay
:03:37. > :03:37.to mitigate the loss of that
:03:38. > :03:45.Saturday a normal day is a particular frustration to doctors.
:03:46. > :03:49.What would it have taken for the BMA to be happy on Saturday pay?
:03:50. > :03:53.I think it would have taken a recognition that junior doctors
:03:54. > :03:59.already work Saturdays for patients and will continue to do
:04:00. > :04:00.so, and to acknowledge that the Government's
:04:01. > :04:04.position that Saturday is the same as any other day of the week is not
:04:05. > :04:10.Society is not set up so that schools are open on Saturdays.
:04:11. > :04:14.Everybody knows that Saturdays are a bit different
:04:15. > :04:17.and the people who work for patients on a Saturday should have a little
:04:18. > :04:20.bit of recompense in order to compensate them for working
:04:21. > :04:25.The tough question is, how do you de-escalate
:04:26. > :04:31.For the Department of Health, they have
:04:32. > :04:34.a problem which is if they return
:04:35. > :04:36.to the negotiating table it will cost them political capital.
:04:37. > :04:41.For the BMA, they would have to persuade
:04:42. > :04:44.their members to accept something they have argued about for a long
:04:45. > :04:47.time with a Health Secretary that lots of doctors feel has
:04:48. > :04:50.Doctors on the picket line seethe about Mr Hunt's claim that death
:04:51. > :04:55.There is evidence of that, but there is not good evidence
:04:56. > :04:57.that staffing is the critical
:04:58. > :05:02.is a cost-effective way to save lives, but a seven-day NHS
:05:03. > :05:12.This was the last junior doctors walk out.
:05:13. > :05:14.This was the last junior doctor walk-out.
:05:15. > :05:17.But they do have public sympathy for their action.
:05:18. > :05:19.Two thirds of the public blame Jeremy Hunt for the dispute.
:05:20. > :05:26.We need to think about the implications of this and to take
:05:27. > :05:29.the temperature of our members on what they feel about this
:05:30. > :05:30.imposition of a contract that is frankly unfair.
:05:31. > :05:34.We will be taking into account when we do that what is happening
:05:35. > :05:35.in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland,
:05:36. > :05:37.where I have to say the governments there are not
:05:38. > :05:40.They are continuing to deliver the seven-day
:05:41. > :05:42.services that they have there in agreement with the medical
:05:43. > :05:46.staff and agreement with all clinical staff,
:05:47. > :05:49.and moving forward in a way that the Government in London has
:05:50. > :05:57.For further strikes to work, they need to
:05:58. > :05:59.do enough political damage to the Health Secretary to force
:06:00. > :06:03.So doctors must gauge if they can take public
:06:04. > :06:06.opinion with them through such a campaign, and whether it would be
:06:07. > :06:08.worth the likely inconvenience to patients.
:06:09. > :06:19.No wonder some are talking about seeking work elsewhere.
:06:20. > :06:25.This imposition has never been done before in the history of the NHS. So
:06:26. > :06:28.does Jeremy Hunt know what he's doing? I asked him earlier.
:06:29. > :06:30.It is really disappointing that it has come to this.
:06:31. > :06:34.We have wanted to discuss these changes for the best
:06:35. > :06:36.part of four years, but last night Sir David Dalton,
:06:37. > :06:38.the chief executive of Salford Royal, which is one
:06:39. > :06:41.of our safest and best hospitals, who has been leading
:06:42. > :06:43.the negotiations for the Government, said that he did not think
:06:44. > :06:44.he negotiated settlement was possible
:06:45. > :06:47.and he urged me to do whatever I thought necessary
:06:48. > :06:55.That all the time and all the money and all the costly
:06:56. > :06:57.negotiations have come to nothing because you have just imposed
:06:58. > :07:02.The negotiations had come to nothing.
:07:03. > :07:04.He is someone who wrote to me with that judgment.
:07:05. > :07:06.He said there is no realise the chance
:07:07. > :07:09.of a deal particularly on the issue of Saturday pay.
:07:10. > :07:15.This is vital because we have not just a manifesto
:07:16. > :07:17.commitment but an absolute determination that if our NHS
:07:18. > :07:19.is going to offer the highest quality
:07:20. > :07:22.care, patients should be confident that they are going to get the same
:07:23. > :07:25.high-quality care every day of the week.
:07:26. > :07:28.You are looking for a seven-day NHS, but it is going to be
:07:29. > :07:31.cost neutral so you are stretching the five-day NHS to seven.
:07:32. > :07:33.How is that possibly going to resolve
:07:34. > :07:42.Next year we are putting in an extra ?3.8 billion in real terms
:07:43. > :07:46.It is about meeting the clinical standards
:07:47. > :07:49.that say that every day of the week you should be seen by a senior
:07:50. > :07:51.decision-maker within 14 hours of being admitted.
:07:52. > :07:53.If you are vulnerable you should be seen twice
:07:54. > :08:01.The problem is, bluntly, that when you have got 98% of highly
:08:02. > :08:04.trained, highly educated, dedicated junior doctors who reject
:08:05. > :08:06.this, they have read it,
:08:07. > :08:08.and say you are wrong, that is your problem.
:08:09. > :08:16.What was so sad was that the BMA junior doctors, instead of sitting
:08:17. > :08:23.Refused to enter into discussions and balloted for strike,
:08:24. > :08:28.and they balloted for strike saying that pay was going to be cut,
:08:29. > :08:29.which it isn't, saying that hours were going
:08:30. > :08:32.to be lengthened, in fact we are doing the opposite
:08:33. > :08:34.in bringing down the maximum number of hours that
:08:35. > :08:43.That is not quite true, because there is going to be
:08:44. > :08:46.damage, if you like, by removing penalties if doctors
:08:47. > :08:47.work excess hours.
:08:48. > :08:49.That safety net is going to be removed.
:08:50. > :08:51.When they tell you that they are worried about exhaustion
:08:52. > :08:54.and the knock-on effects to patient safety, why is that not ringing
:08:55. > :08:58.The problem is what we had before was not a penalty,
:08:59. > :09:02.it was extra pay for the doctors being
:09:03. > :09:10.That created a perverse incentive, particularly because doctors' basic
:09:11. > :09:15.And so one of the things we are doing today
:09:16. > :09:17.is we are bringing down the weekend premium
:09:18. > :09:19.rates but increasing basic pay by 13.5%.
:09:20. > :09:22.You keep on telling me I am wrong and if that is the case,
:09:23. > :09:24.and this is what we are hearing from junior doctors,
:09:25. > :09:27.well educated, highly trained, who have read and rejected
:09:28. > :09:29.what you are proposing, what is the message you are giving
:09:30. > :09:37.I fully understand in the heat of an industrial relations dispute
:09:38. > :09:39.that people are not necessarily going to
:09:40. > :09:41.take everything at face value from the politician who has been
:09:42. > :09:48.If you do not want to take the Health Secretary's word
:09:49. > :09:52.for it, listen to independent people.
:09:53. > :09:56.Today's senior NHS leaders, including the head of NHS England,
:09:57. > :09:58.Simon Stephens, have said that the new offer on the table
:09:59. > :10:01.to what was on the table in September.
:10:02. > :10:04.It is very easy to see through that list.
:10:05. > :10:07.These are senior respected independent people who say
:10:08. > :10:11.that the new contract on the table is fair and reasonable and we have
:10:12. > :10:16.We initially said that Saturday should be treated
:10:17. > :10:28.We have changed that position and said
:10:29. > :10:32.that if you work one in four weekends or more you can get a 30%
:10:33. > :10:34.That is a very significant concession.
:10:35. > :10:37.The BME have not been prepared to make any
:10:38. > :10:41.Which is why I have had to make the difficult decision to give
:10:42. > :10:45.The BMA have said this risks alienating a whole generation
:10:46. > :10:51.The best outcome, you are going to get more strikes in July or August.
:10:52. > :10:53.The worst outcome, you are going to get people voting
:10:54. > :11:00.We have heard from doctors who say, I do not know about my future
:11:01. > :11:03.in the NHS and I do not know about my future in this country.
:11:04. > :11:06.In difficult situation like this there is no risk-free route,
:11:07. > :11:09.but what I have done today is given certainty for the future.
:11:10. > :11:11.There would be huge risks to the service
:11:12. > :11:13.if this uncertainty had continued to paralyse the service.
:11:14. > :11:16.Is there a plan in place if there is a mass
:11:17. > :11:21.I don't believe it will come to that because I think doctors
:11:22. > :11:29.will look at what was proposed and they will see this,
:11:30. > :11:35.when you impose a contract, which is the last thing anyone
:11:36. > :11:37.wants, you can impose anything you like, you have moved
:11:38. > :11:42.beyond the process of negotiation, I actually
:11:43. > :11:47.chose to impose a position which moves a long way
:11:48. > :11:49.to address the concerns of the BMA and many other
:11:50. > :11:54.We have had eight studies in the last five years saying that
:11:55. > :11:56.mortality rates are higher at weekends.
:11:57. > :11:59.Six of those top about staffing rates as being one of
:12:00. > :12:03.You have been accused of being rash and misleading for using a figure
:12:04. > :12:06.of 11,000 more deaths at the weekend when is no evidence
:12:07. > :12:09.as to how those were created or whether your solutions
:12:10. > :12:15.There was one study that had the 11,000 figure.
:12:16. > :12:20.We've had seven other studies in the last five years.
:12:21. > :12:23.I don't know any doctors who are saying there is not an issue
:12:24. > :12:26.about the weekend effect and the vast majority would say
:12:27. > :12:35.I cannot as Health Secretary sit here and say that is not something
:12:36. > :12:40.How do you as Health Secretary work with NHS staff who do not trust you?
:12:41. > :12:43.You need them onside to get the public to
:12:44. > :12:47.believe in the service, and they do not at the moment.
:12:48. > :12:49.That is unfortunate, because we are in the
:12:50. > :12:53.middle of a very difficult industrial relations dispute
:12:54. > :12:56.and in any industrial relations dispute,
:12:57. > :12:58.if you ask the protagonists
:12:59. > :13:02.you will not get a particularly complimentary
:13:03. > :13:08.language, but what is the alternative?
:13:09. > :13:11.The alternative is that in the face of a union that militantly
:13:12. > :13:16.refuses to negotiate how we can improve care for patients
:13:17. > :13:19.at weekends that I just pack my bags and go away.
:13:20. > :13:20.I cannot do that as Health Secretary.
:13:21. > :13:23.I have to be there for patients and I think in the end
:13:24. > :13:27.that is the right thing for doctors as well.
:13:28. > :13:35.The sound ripples detected in the fabric of space time have
:13:36. > :13:38.something more akin to a huge and excitable scream
:13:39. > :13:40.from the scientists that discovered them.
:13:41. > :13:43.Of that ilk, all credit must go to EInstein who first predicted
:13:44. > :13:46.Today, in an anouncement that electrified the world,
:13:47. > :13:48.astronomers finally detected the waves - and conceeded
:13:49. > :13:52.The skies - one said - will never be the same again.
:13:53. > :14:02.It's him again, making waves in the world of physics.
:14:03. > :14:03.This is the equation behind Albert Einstein's
:14:04. > :14:05.theory of general relativity, conceived 100 years ago.
:14:06. > :14:10.A pillar of modern physics, it told us
:14:11. > :14:12.everything from the motion of the planets to the presence
:14:13. > :14:21.But it also proposed the existence of something else.
:14:22. > :14:24.Our universe is a gobsmacking sight, but one of its most intriguing
:14:25. > :14:28.It's awash with them, but we've never
:14:29. > :14:34.We have detected gravitational waves.
:14:35. > :14:40.The news today that we finally found them is quite literally
:14:41. > :14:49.Almost certainly Nobel Prizes will be given out for what some
:14:50. > :14:51.are already calling the discovery of the century.
:14:52. > :14:57.The idea is that as any object moves through the fabric
:14:58. > :15:00.of the universe, it gives off waves of gravitational energy,
:15:01. > :15:03.much like the ripples that emanate across the surface of the water
:15:04. > :15:15.Everything on the move including you and me emits them,
:15:16. > :15:17.but, in universal terms, we are pretty puny, so our waves
:15:18. > :15:20.When it comes to cosmic giants, though, like
:15:21. > :15:23.exploding stars, these generate tsunamis of gravitational energy,
:15:24. > :15:24.so a good opportunity for scientists to
:15:25. > :15:32.As gravitational waves move through the universe,
:15:33. > :15:36.they eventually reach the Earth, and when
:15:37. > :15:41.they do, they gently warp anything and everything they pass through,
:15:42. > :15:45.stretching and squeezing atoms, but by a tiny, tiny amount.
:15:46. > :15:51.And it's this minute disturbance that
:15:52. > :15:54.scientists have detected emanating from this explosive event that took
:15:55. > :16:03.Two black holes moving ever closer together.
:16:04. > :16:05.Eventually they smashed into one another, merging.
:16:06. > :16:07.The collision generated a surge of gravitational ripples that
:16:08. > :16:13.reached Earth just in time for the switching
:16:14. > :16:15.on of an experiment designed to find them.
:16:16. > :16:19.So, why should anyone care about a few ghostly oscillations?
:16:20. > :16:31.on of an experiment designed to find them.
:16:32. > :16:33.So, why should anyone care about a few ghostly oscillations?
:16:34. > :16:35.Aside from providing another feather in Einstein's cap,
:16:36. > :16:37.who has been proved right once again, it heralds
:16:38. > :16:41.Until now, even our most advanced telescopes could share only
:16:42. > :16:47.Now we can detect gravitational waves, we will be able to learn more
:16:48. > :16:49.about the events that generated them, looking
:16:50. > :16:51.deeper into space and further back in time than ever before.
:16:52. > :16:58.It really does give us a brand-new perspective of the universe.
:16:59. > :17:01.Professor Sheila Rowan, Director of the Institute
:17:02. > :17:03.for Gravitational Research in Glasgow, is one of the researchers
:17:04. > :17:12.I cannot imagine what your day has been like.
:17:13. > :17:23.He knew about this a hundred years ago.
:17:24. > :17:33.People have written books about the history of the field because it is
:17:34. > :17:37.so interesting. Einstein made this prediction 100 years ago but for
:17:38. > :17:41.decades it remained a mathematical curiosity. People were not sure that
:17:42. > :17:46.this prediction of gravitational waves had any real physical meaning,
:17:47. > :17:50.that it was an effect we could detect and it took until the 1960s
:17:51. > :17:56.before people thought that this was maybe something that was real that
:17:57. > :17:59.we could try to sense, and they have taken the following decades in
:18:00. > :18:09.between to get to the point where we are now. The sound of space has
:18:10. > :18:17.changed. Through that sound, do we get the history of the Big Bang? Do
:18:18. > :18:22.you buy that? Not yet, but that is a call for us in future. What we have
:18:23. > :18:26.started to be able to do is listen to the gravitational history of our
:18:27. > :18:34.universe and hear sounds from our local universe, from black holes,
:18:35. > :18:41.spiralling, and so far we can listen to those within a certain volume of
:18:42. > :18:44.our local universe. We would like to make our detectors even more
:18:45. > :18:49.sensitive to sense further out into the universe. The further out we go
:18:50. > :18:54.the further back in time we can sense and eventually if we can make
:18:55. > :18:57.our detectors sensitive enough we would like to reach back to
:18:58. > :19:05.gravitational signals potentially coming from the Big Bang.
:19:06. > :19:12.Extraordinary. Does this tie in with Einstein's theory of relativity?
:19:13. > :19:16.Does it prove it? Today's result is a fantastic confirmation of
:19:17. > :19:20.Einstein's theory of general relativity. Everything we detected
:19:21. > :19:28.today fits with general relativity and in some ways that is a fabulous
:19:29. > :19:36.confirmation. We know that general relativity, a fabulously, does not
:19:37. > :19:41.tell us everything, the. The of all the forces that govern our universe.
:19:42. > :19:44.In some ways it is a fabulous confirmation of general relativity
:19:45. > :19:51.but still there are boundaries to push. Does it disturb things that
:19:52. > :19:59.scientists had thought were set in stone? Has it created more problems
:20:00. > :20:04.for you? I do not think it has created more problems for us. It has
:20:05. > :20:10.given us a new tool that we did not have before to study the dark side
:20:11. > :20:16.of our universe, because pretty much everything we know so far we have
:20:17. > :20:20.got by going out and turning our telescopes are up and sensing the
:20:21. > :20:26.light we can see. It has all been done with light and visually. Light
:20:27. > :20:32.and its different spectrums, x-rays and gamma raise, all part of the
:20:33. > :20:38.spectrum of light. What does this do to our understanding of gravity? It
:20:39. > :20:44.has always been mysterious. It gives us a new tool to try to understand
:20:45. > :20:51.where our limits of Einstein's theory stop because for the first
:20:52. > :20:56.time we have objects that have the strongest gravity that we can think
:20:57. > :21:04.of, like polls are black because not even light can escape them, and two
:21:05. > :21:08.merging is gravity in its strongest form and we have just darted to be
:21:09. > :21:15.able to see what is happening in those limits of the strongest
:21:16. > :21:20.gravity we can think of. We got our first ignored today, our first hint.
:21:21. > :21:23.To study those systems it will push our understanding of general
:21:24. > :21:29.relativity to the limits and test what we know. Thank you.
:21:30. > :21:33.The Zika virus, carried by the Aedes Egypti mosquito,
:21:34. > :21:38.is suspecting of being the cause of 400 birth deformities in Brazil.
:21:39. > :21:41.Now the disease has moved north to Colombia where it has also been
:21:42. > :21:49.The science behind Zika is not proven but the fear is real enough.
:21:50. > :22:00.Imagine losing control over the muscles in your body.
:22:01. > :22:14.Tropical Colombia is at the centre of a 21st-century
:22:15. > :22:23.And the suspected cause is the Zika virus.
:22:24. > :22:25.You can see restraints on the patient's arms.
:22:26. > :22:34.The oxygen pipe is feeding oxygen into his lungs because he can't
:22:35. > :22:43.The connection between the creeping paralysis and Zika
:22:44. > :22:49.But here at the front line, it's taken for
:22:50. > :22:56.Fabian is 22, a young man in the prime of his life.
:22:57. > :22:59.Then he got pins and needles, lost feeling
:23:00. > :23:04.in his legs, and then he couldn't breathe.
:23:05. > :23:13.I ask, did you use mosquito repellent?
:23:14. > :23:42.That is his wife, and she's pregnant.
:23:43. > :23:44.He's recovering, but he can still barely
:23:45. > :23:58.This is the alley where his family live.
:23:59. > :24:10.There is fear here, but the message isn't
:24:11. > :24:17.People should wear long-sleeved shirts, trousers and use repellent.
:24:18. > :24:23.It doesn't take long to find where the mosquitoes might come
:24:24. > :24:42.It is Zika's suspected effect on unborn
:24:43. > :25:01.babies which is causing her as much anxiety as the fate of her husband.
:25:02. > :25:04.Before 2000, there are no reports of Zika causing birth defects.
:25:05. > :25:15.Along with other scientists he's noted that Zika
:25:16. > :25:18.used to be a mild virus and now it isn't.
:25:19. > :25:25.It looks as if the virus has changed in some way.
:25:26. > :25:28.We have to see exactly what happened.
:25:29. > :25:35.I'm afraid that there is a change in the genome of the virus.
:25:36. > :25:39.Zika plus, a mutation in this genome.
:25:40. > :25:41.And a problem in the environment that is specific
:25:42. > :25:43.to South America and Central America.
:25:44. > :25:45.We will have the answer soon I think.
:25:46. > :25:52.The health systems in our countries have to deal with the complications
:25:53. > :26:00.that we did not have, and we are not really ready to deal
:26:01. > :26:11.All that the authorities can do is fumigate,
:26:12. > :26:31.and hunt down the Zika larvae which flourish in still water.
:26:32. > :26:33.So this is absolutely what you don't need
:26:34. > :26:39.How can you convince people who live in a tropical area to cover up?
:26:40. > :26:41.The hospital here is under massive pressure, not least from patients
:26:42. > :26:44.like this one from Venezuela, who the doctors believe have got
:26:45. > :27:10.Zika, and now the beginnings of paralysis.
:27:11. > :27:15.Instead, she ended up here in Colombia.
:27:16. > :27:18.So far, the Western world has been watching the spread of Zika almost
:27:19. > :27:24.Soon the southern United States and even parts of southern
:27:25. > :27:27.Europe may be dealing with its grim reality.
:27:28. > :27:38.Russia has submitted a proposal for a ceasefire in Syria,
:27:39. > :27:46.Russia's foreign minister gave few details but it's understood
:27:47. > :27:48.to envisage a truce starting on the first of March.
:27:49. > :27:51.The US has demanded an immediate end to hostilities, as it suspects
:27:52. > :27:54.Russia wants to give Syrian government troops three weeks
:27:55. > :28:00.Earlier I talked to General John Allen, a former commander of US
:28:01. > :28:02.forces in Afghanistan and President Obama's special envoy
:28:03. > :28:11.He's flown in from the States to take part in the Intelligence
:28:12. > :28:15.I began by asking him why there are still no Western fighting
:28:16. > :28:23.We are there to provide air support, precision air support to both deal
:28:24. > :28:26.with Daesh as a target, but also to support the manoeuvre
:28:27. > :28:30.of the Iraqis, and the Syrian opposition element.
:28:31. > :28:33.We have trainers on the ground at multiple training sites
:28:34. > :28:35.throughout the region who are training Iraqi security
:28:36. > :28:41.We have advisers on the ground who are with some of
:28:42. > :28:45.these manoeuvre forces and helping them to gain the advantage locally.
:28:46. > :28:49.We have special operators on the ground to work closely
:28:50. > :28:52.with their counterparts so that in the event we can target a key
:28:53. > :28:54.Isil location, a compound, a leader, an infrastructure,
:28:55. > :29:01.So there are boots on the ground, there are Western forces
:29:02. > :29:04.on the ground, and that's the kind of support we want to provide
:29:05. > :29:07.to the indigenous population so that they
:29:08. > :29:10.are the authors of the defeat of Daesh.
:29:11. > :29:12.So just to clarify, because when people talk about boots
:29:13. > :29:16.on the ground, they mean, as you know,
:29:17. > :29:18.Western boots doing a military, as in a fighting, job.
:29:19. > :29:27.I think we should be very clear that as the operational environment
:29:28. > :29:30.evolves, we should be prepared to make the kinds of decisions that
:29:31. > :29:45.There could be the day when as Daesh continues to feel the pressure,
:29:46. > :29:46.the continued global pressure that we
:29:47. > :29:49.are bringing to bear on it, that we could see a real
:29:50. > :29:52.vulnerability, and we should have the capability of moving very
:29:53. > :29:54.quickly with indigenous forces, with the right kinds of Western
:29:55. > :29:57.forces if necessary, to exploit that for ability.
:29:58. > :30:00.The question isn't whether we apply large numbers of forces.
:30:01. > :30:02.The question is whether they stay on the ground for long
:30:03. > :30:05.Do you think the West missed a chance
:30:06. > :30:08.in not going into Syria a lot earlier?
:30:09. > :30:12.It isn't a hypothetical question in the sense that they had
:30:13. > :30:18.I think more could have been done earlier, frankly,
:30:19. > :30:20.with some of the Syrian opposition elements.
:30:21. > :30:22.We would be in a different place today.
:30:23. > :30:27.But again, the question begs how much
:30:28. > :30:30.and how long and who would have contributed, and we didn't do it,
:30:31. > :30:32.so we are where we are today, and that
:30:33. > :30:34.is a real challenge, it is a humanitarian catastrophe
:30:35. > :30:38.of unparalleled extent in the aftermath
:30:39. > :30:42.of World War II, and we are going to have to deal with that for a long
:30:43. > :30:48.You could argue in that absence, Assad got stronger, Russia came in,
:30:49. > :30:51.how much do you think Russia has changed this whole game
:30:52. > :30:53.when you look at what is happening in Aleppo now?
:30:54. > :30:59.We had had some hope that, with the Russian incursion,
:31:00. > :31:02.there could be a partnership in dealing with Isil.
:31:03. > :31:05.There could be some reduction in the violence that the regime has
:31:06. > :31:17.And there could be a coherent conversation about a political
:31:18. > :31:22.We had hopes in all of those areas, and none of them have come to pass.
:31:23. > :31:25.In fact, the violence is greater than it has been before.
:31:26. > :31:31.There have been valiant attempts to create a political conversation
:31:32. > :31:34.about transition, but the Russians and their allies in the region
:31:35. > :31:35.are about the destruction, if you will,
:31:36. > :31:38.of the terrorists before we can have this coherent political
:31:39. > :31:41.Where do the differences lie between you and
:31:42. > :31:43.President Obama in terms of strategy on Syria, an Isis?
:31:44. > :31:45.I'm not going to answer that question.
:31:46. > :31:52.There have been, and I offer my advice to our leadership,
:31:53. > :31:56.and they are free to take that advice as they choose.
:31:57. > :32:01.I think that there have been areas where I have
:32:02. > :32:04.offered advice that has been embraced, and those areas I think
:32:05. > :32:09.are areas where we are now finding that we are making some progress.
:32:10. > :32:12.But it's not just me, it team effort, and that team has
:32:13. > :32:14.been together now for some period of time
:32:15. > :32:17.dealing with this crisis and trying to give the president our very best
:32:18. > :32:20.The focus is also including Libya now.
:32:21. > :32:28.Is it right to step on the Isis in Libya?
:32:29. > :32:37.I think we should attack Isis wherever we find it.
:32:38. > :32:39.And in the context of how Isis has globalised,
:32:40. > :32:42.we find that there have been a number of organisations,
:32:43. > :32:44.one in Libya, one in the Sinai, one in West
:32:45. > :32:46.Africa, Boko Haram, which people are familiar with.
:32:47. > :32:48.And in other locations where they have been
:32:49. > :32:50.franchised by Isil to fly the black flag.
:32:51. > :32:52.We're going to need to deal with these over time.
:32:53. > :32:54.We have to prioritise our efforts, because we
:32:55. > :32:56.don't have the capacity, we being the Western community
:32:57. > :32:58.of nations, we don't have the capacity to deal
:32:59. > :33:02.But I do believe as your question implies
:33:03. > :33:09.The presence of Isis has made it much
:33:10. > :33:12.more difficult potentially to find a political solution in Libya,
:33:13. > :33:15.but the presence of Isis in Libya has a destabilising effect
:33:16. > :33:21.to Egypt, and potentially across the Mediterranean
:33:22. > :33:25.So we have to watch this very closely, and we should be,
:33:26. > :33:27.and we have been, attacking Isis forces
:33:28. > :33:32.And how significant is the British involvement?
:33:33. > :33:35.I'm always very careful to point out it is not
:33:36. > :33:37.about the numbers of aeroplanes or numbers of bombs or special
:33:38. > :33:41.It is the presence of Britain in the crisis
:33:42. > :33:51.General John Allen speaking to me earlier.
:33:52. > :33:54.Its slogan when it first launched was "It is -
:33:55. > :33:57.The paper that wore its editorial independence with pride,
:33:58. > :34:00.the Independent, could be moving off the press to become online only.
:34:01. > :34:02.The final decision has not yet been made but the paper,
:34:03. > :34:05.which has existed for 30 years, is in the process of selling
:34:06. > :34:08.the iPaper to the owner of the Scotsman in a ?25 million deal.
:34:09. > :34:14.Today the Independent's editor, Amol Rajan, sent staff at the paper
:34:15. > :34:16.an e-mail acknowledging a lot of questions and uncertainty.
:34:17. > :34:19.Steven Glover was one of the founder members of the paper
:34:20. > :34:30.What is your gut feeling about this? Are we nearing the end of the
:34:31. > :34:33.Independent? It won't be the end of it, because it will have a life
:34:34. > :34:38.online, and that will be the future of the many newspapers. If it is
:34:39. > :34:43.true, I think it will be the first of many newspapers which stop their
:34:44. > :34:48.print editions and have another existent online. That e-mail went
:34:49. > :34:53.out today suggesting that the editor doesn't quite know what is going on.
:34:54. > :34:58.It is very difficult when you are talking about staff. I guess the
:34:59. > :35:05.bigger question is, does a paper need to exist paper for many more?
:35:06. > :35:08.It is a good question. Anybody under 35 who reads the Independent
:35:09. > :35:13.probably read it online, so whether the print edition continues is not
:35:14. > :35:19.really an important question. For people who like reading newspapers,
:35:20. > :35:22.as I do, it does matter. And there is a longer question as to whether
:35:23. > :35:26.online newspapers will be able to support the same number of
:35:27. > :35:29.journalists that went newspapers traditionally have. Will they have
:35:30. > :35:34.the same resources? Will they be able to do the same sort of
:35:35. > :35:38.journalism. We have some pictures I think of the early days of you and
:35:39. > :35:42.colleagues starting this off. Did you have an impression in your head
:35:43. > :35:47.of its life span? Did you think that it would still be going today? Many
:35:48. > :35:52.people thought we would be out of business in about six months. That
:35:53. > :35:56.was the common Fleet Street view. We were more optimistic, but if you had
:35:57. > :36:01.asked me whether I would be around in ten or 20 or 30 or 100 years, I
:36:02. > :36:06.wouldn't have been able to give you an answer. What decides, there are
:36:07. > :36:10.some hope as you can't imagine not exist in paper form, and there are
:36:11. > :36:14.some that seem to be able to make that transition. What is it, what
:36:15. > :36:19.decides whether a paper stays in paper form? What decides it is in
:36:20. > :36:22.the end the bottom line. The Independent is now selling so few
:36:23. > :36:27.copies that it doesn't really make sense to go on printing it everyday.
:36:28. > :36:31.But that has to be the editorial content, then, essentially? You
:36:32. > :36:36.could say it is what attracts in advertisers, but is it that
:36:37. > :36:43.advertisers will only come into a high end money focused paper like
:36:44. > :36:47.the FT, awkward content do it? The FT, I wouldn't be at all is a prized
:36:48. > :36:53.if the FT itself stops printing copies in the foreseeable future.
:36:54. > :36:57.You think it will? Think it is likely. The ones that may follow
:36:58. > :37:03.quickly are the FT and the guardian, within the next few years. How many
:37:04. > :37:09.papers will be on the shelves in five years? Most of them, but not
:37:10. > :37:14.all. In 10-15 years, not very many, I'm afraid. Do you recognise the
:37:15. > :37:20.same paper today as the one that you launched? Do you read it? I do look
:37:21. > :37:23.at it. It has been an very depleted resources compared to what it had
:37:24. > :37:28.when we launched it, but it is still a feisty little paper, it still has
:37:29. > :37:36.high standards, and it has been very well edited. Its reach on social
:37:37. > :37:38.media, on Twitter, on the sites, is probably a totally different
:37:39. > :37:47.audience, but it is very visible online, isn't it? It is, and the
:37:48. > :37:52.Independent is something like the eighth most read newspaper in the
:37:53. > :37:57.world, and I think they will put more resources into the online
:37:58. > :38:01.version. UI divided between saying closing is
:38:02. > :38:04.not quite staying closing, do you think from the emotional
:38:05. > :38:09.perspective, your baby has gone now? It has grown-up certainly
:38:10. > :38:12.transformed into something we couldn't have conceived of 30 years
:38:13. > :38:17.ago, but I think it will still be there. In some way, the dream lives
:38:18. > :38:21.on. Stephen Glover, thank you very much, thanks for coming in. Let's
:38:22. > :38:26.take you through tomorrow's front pages. The Independent has the
:38:27. > :38:30.theory of relativity proved, going back to those gravitational waves.
:38:31. > :38:34.The Daily Telegraph has the same picture, and their top story is the
:38:35. > :38:38.deal that could split the Tories, they said 130 grassroots members
:38:39. > :38:46.want Cameron he risks the future of the party if he ignores their views.
:38:47. > :38:51.The Guardian has the doctors vowing to fight on. The Times, Turkey
:38:52. > :38:56.threatens Europe with millions of migrants, saying tensions mount as
:38:57. > :39:03.the President of Turkey warns that we are not idiots. They are
:39:04. > :39:08.expecting another 600,000 people to flee over the border. The Daily Mail
:39:09. > :39:12.has the flight of the strike doctors, junior doctors threatening
:39:13. > :39:17.a mass exodus to Australia, and the FT has a day of turmoil as negative
:39:18. > :39:19.rates strike fear into global markets.
:39:20. > :39:22.We leave you at Propsman, the propeller specialist
:39:23. > :39:25.Props to them, forgive us, for apparently inventing what looks
:39:26. > :39:27.like an authentic 21st century sport.
:39:28. > :40:21.Good evening. It has been turning pretty cold and frosty across many
:40:22. > :40:26.parts of the country, particularly the central and northern areas.
:40:27. > :40:31.Further south, rather more cloud, so not as cold as it was on Thursday
:40:32. > :40:36.morning. Some bright spells through the day, but also one or two
:40:37. > :40:42.showers, wintry over higher ground. Some of the snow fit Easter Scotland
:40:43. > :40:45.right down to lower levels. Brightness across the borders, just