:00:00. > :00:08.Tonight an exclusive UK TV interview with the mother of the Columbine
:00:09. > :00:12.killer who breaks her seventeen year silence.
:00:13. > :00:15.I remember at that point thinking if Dylan is really doing this,
:00:16. > :00:29.At that moment it was when I really prayed for him to die.
:00:30. > :00:32.And what would she say to the families of the dead
:00:33. > :00:36.I have this feeling of wanting to say over and over again,
:00:37. > :00:40.And I know that such a thing is so completely inadequate.
:00:41. > :00:44.But I don't know what else to say, except, I'm sorry.
:00:45. > :00:47.Also tonight we reveal and see evidence that Labour is telling
:00:48. > :00:49.members not to hold debates about leaving Europe,
:00:50. > :00:56.I think they shouldn't be nervous of having the debate -
:00:57. > :00:58.if they have a strong case let's hear it.
:00:59. > :01:01.We have got our case and we want to put it.
:01:02. > :01:05.And veteran gay rights campaigner Peter Tatchell on why people should
:01:06. > :01:07.be allowed to say Transwomen aren't real women.
:01:08. > :01:17.And transactivist Paris Lees on why they shouldn't.
:01:18. > :01:22.What is it like to know that your own son planned
:01:23. > :01:26.15 people died and 24 others were wounded
:01:27. > :01:32.in the Columbine High School tragedy in 1999.
:01:33. > :01:35.It was the first mass shooting of the 24-hour news era and pictures
:01:36. > :01:38.were beamed live from helicopters circling the school,
:01:39. > :01:46.and students trapped inside were interviewed live on air.
:01:47. > :01:48.The two killers, 17-year-old Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris
:01:49. > :01:50.who was eighteen, eventually killed themselves in the school library.
:01:51. > :01:53.In the aftermath the parents of the killers were excoriated.
:01:54. > :02:00.For seventeen years Dylan Klebold's mother kept her silence trying
:02:01. > :02:02.to understand what drove her 17-year-old son to kill
:02:03. > :02:06.Now she has written a book about it, A Mother's Reckoning,
:02:07. > :02:08.donating her profits to mental health charities, because one
:02:09. > :02:11.of the many things she didn't know about her son was
:02:12. > :02:15.This is Sue Klebold's only British television interview.
:02:16. > :02:33.You may find some of the scenes disturbing.
:02:34. > :02:36.Columbine High School lies 50 miles south of Denver in the shadow
:02:37. > :02:57.On the 20th of April 1999 its name became infamous around the world
:02:58. > :03:00.when two students, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, calmly
:03:01. > :03:01.drove their cars, packed with explosives, guns,
:03:02. > :03:05.parking lot and set about destroying the school.
:03:06. > :03:07.This wasn't a moment of madness, it was a cold-blooded massacre.
:03:08. > :03:16.The suburban high school turned into a killing field.
:03:17. > :03:19.I was screaming, and crying, I was telling them not to shoot me.
:03:20. > :03:22.So he shot the girl, he shot her in the head
:03:23. > :03:25.One by one they extracted the dead and injured from the school.
:03:26. > :03:30.This teenager was rescued from an upstairs classroom.
:03:31. > :03:32.I have been a SWAT officer since 1980 and this was clearly
:03:33. > :03:35.the most devastating and dramatic scene that I have ever seen.
:03:36. > :04:06.And began -- tell me how the day began. It was still dark. I heard
:04:07. > :04:11.Dylan thundering down the stairs in his boots. I was startled because it
:04:12. > :04:20.was too early for him to be up. I opened my bedroom door and I yelled,
:04:21. > :04:26.Dylan? He was at the front door already. I couldn't see him but all
:04:27. > :04:31.I heard him say was goodbye, then he slammed the door and left. I was
:04:32. > :04:35.very concerned. I woke my husband and said something is bothering him.
:04:36. > :04:40.Would you talk to him later? My husband said I will be home all day,
:04:41. > :04:47.I will talk to him when he gets home. And then what happened? About
:04:48. > :04:52.noon I was getting ready to go to a meeting. I worked for the college
:04:53. > :04:56.system. I had left my desk and came back and the message light was
:04:57. > :05:00.flashing on my telephone. I thought I better listen to it. I picked up
:05:01. > :05:04.the phone and listened and it was my husband, this voice, and he sounded
:05:05. > :05:10.horribly upset. His voice was cracking. He could hardly breathe.
:05:11. > :05:17.And he said, listen to the television, something horrible is
:05:18. > :05:21.happening at school. It was such a day of confusion. Police came to our
:05:22. > :05:27.home. We were asked to leave our home. We had to sit outside. We sat
:05:28. > :05:30.on the ground all day. At that stage you must have known that it was more
:05:31. > :05:34.likely your son was involved in the shooting, rather than someone who
:05:35. > :05:40.was shot. We heard through the window. The television was on. We
:05:41. > :05:46.heard that 25 people were dead. At that point I remembered thinking, if
:05:47. > :05:53.Dylan is really doing this, he must stop. And in that moment I prayed
:05:54. > :05:58.for him to die. I thought something has got to stop this. Whatever it is
:05:59. > :06:03.that is going on. It took me a very long time to believe, months, to
:06:04. > :06:06.believe that my son was actually responsible for killing and hurting
:06:07. > :06:13.people. Up until that time I believe I was living in an extreme state of
:06:14. > :06:22.denial. He was there, but he didn't really kill anybody, or, he wasn't
:06:23. > :06:27.what they were saying. That it was Eric? Yes, that it was Eric. Dylan
:06:28. > :06:33.Klebold lived in this house for almost a decade. In 1997 Dylan
:06:34. > :06:39.Klebold and Eric Harris were caught stealing. It hit the family hard.
:06:40. > :06:42.Dylan Became withdrawn and hostile but still took part of family
:06:43. > :06:46.events, held down a part-time job, he went to the school prom three
:06:47. > :06:50.days before the massacre. But what his parents didn't know was that
:06:51. > :06:57.Dylan Klebold has been suicidal for two years. He poured all of his rage
:06:58. > :07:01.and upset into diaries and journals that were only handed to the family
:07:02. > :07:08.by the police almost two years after the killing. What they were also
:07:09. > :07:12.unaware of was that Dylan had hidden a sawn off shotgun and ammunition in
:07:13. > :07:17.his bedroom. Police later said the killers had prepared 99 home-made
:07:18. > :07:22.explosive devices for use in the attack. It must have been a strange
:07:23. > :07:29.thing to compute, to know that between them Dylan and Eric Harris
:07:30. > :07:34.were going to blow up the whole school. That was one of the most
:07:35. > :07:39.difficult moments of this entire process. I had to go through so many
:07:40. > :07:45.phases of accessing this, and accepting, OK, they were there, OK,
:07:46. > :07:51.they hurt people, it was purposeful, yes, it was planned, it wasn't
:07:52. > :07:55.impulsive. Then at the police report to finally learned that their plan
:07:56. > :08:01.has been to kill everybody in the school but their plan failed. When I
:08:02. > :08:06.thought of that, and thought of the magnitude, I really did not think I
:08:07. > :08:10.was going to live through it. You come in the book, sometimes
:08:11. > :08:13.described him as withdrawn and monosyllabic, and that he took
:08:14. > :08:27.failure heart. Whether certain signs that you missed? -- failure hard. In
:08:28. > :08:32.his junior year several things happened. He got arrested, he got in
:08:33. > :08:39.trouble at school, he has scratched a locker at school... I did not
:08:40. > :08:43.recognise that those things meant there was a potential life and death
:08:44. > :08:50.situation. I didn't recognise that these were possible signs of a
:08:51. > :08:55.mental condition. According to FBI records there have
:08:56. > :09:00.been 50 mass murders, or attempted mass murders, in schools in America
:09:01. > :09:03.since Columbine. Sue Klebold made one stipulation before our
:09:04. > :09:09.interview, that we would not show the CCTV pictures of the boys in the
:09:10. > :09:17.school during the massacre. For fear of copycat attacks.
:09:18. > :09:20.You were asked to go to the Sheriff's office six months after
:09:21. > :09:25.the massacre to be showing videos. Tell me about that. It was a
:09:26. > :09:31.collection of the two of them talking about what they were going
:09:32. > :09:36.to do. Horribly violent and hateful... I remember when I saw
:09:37. > :09:40.that I actually stood up. I thought I was going to be ill. It was such a
:09:41. > :09:49.shock. The person I was seeing on that film wasn't anybody I could
:09:50. > :09:52.recognise. It wasn't Dylan. At that point did you have to face up to the
:09:53. > :09:58.fact that he was equally responsible for Columbine? That's it. That was
:09:59. > :10:03.the moment. That was the day in which I learnt that he was not an
:10:04. > :10:06.innocent bystander who happened to get involved. This wasn't an
:10:07. > :10:11.impulsive act. He prepared for this for a long period of time. And that
:10:12. > :10:16.he was equally involved in killing people, and saying horrible things
:10:17. > :10:24.to people before they died. In the aftermath of the massacre you had
:10:25. > :10:27.support from friends and co-workers, but you also had a substantial
:10:28. > :10:33.firestorm coming at you. What sort of things happened? I remember being
:10:34. > :10:38.in a grocery store and paying with a cheque. The checker recognised my
:10:39. > :10:44.name and asked me if I knew him. I said yes, he was my son, and then
:10:45. > :10:49.she started saying in a very loud voice, you know, this was the work
:10:50. > :10:53.of Satan, and just shouting at me. I am trying to bag my groceries and go
:10:54. > :10:57.out. I would turn on the radio and hear myself being discussed, and
:10:58. > :11:02.called disgusting. These were just things that happened. It created a
:11:03. > :11:09.feeling, always, of being watched, being judged. This instant decision
:11:10. > :11:14.from people who didn't know. People want to believe that it is something
:11:15. > :11:18.as simple as bad parenting. Because it is a comforting fort. Because
:11:19. > :11:23.nobody wants to believe that anything like this can happen to us.
:11:24. > :11:28.-- comforting thought. I think it made people feel safer to believe
:11:29. > :11:32.that we were all of the things they wished we were, or perceived us to
:11:33. > :11:36.be, or imprinted on us, because then they could feel, well, this will not
:11:37. > :11:43.happen to me because I am not like that. You also wrote to the victims'
:11:44. > :11:47.families. I did, yes. A father wrote back to us about a year later, for
:11:48. > :11:53.which I was extremely grateful. He wanted to meet with us. It was
:11:54. > :11:57.profoundly comforting to me. It meant so much to me. I received a
:11:58. > :12:03.letter from the sister of one of the girls who had been shot. And then
:12:04. > :12:09.one of the mothers of the girls who had been killed also reached out and
:12:10. > :12:16.wanted to meet with me. Those things meant so much to me. I couldn't... I
:12:17. > :12:21.couldn't even begin to explain how it felt so wonderful to have them be
:12:22. > :12:27.gracious enough, and brave enough to do that.
:12:28. > :12:36.Sue Klebold now believes her son's suicidal ideas were a significant
:12:37. > :12:41.factor in the Columbine massacre. Since 1999 she has become
:12:42. > :12:47.increasingly involved in the issue of the suicide prevention.
:12:48. > :12:54.You say in the book, I shall listen more and lecture less. In all the
:12:55. > :12:57.years since I lost Dylan, I wish I had just said, you feel that way,
:12:58. > :13:06.tell me about it some more, tell me about how you feel. I think I had a
:13:07. > :13:13.tendency more to lecture, tell him what to do, to do what parents do. I
:13:14. > :13:17.just wished I had talked much less. I read somewhere that you had worn a
:13:18. > :13:24.piece of his clothing. You held onto things. I did wear his clothes for a
:13:25. > :13:30.long time. My husband and I both did. It was just a feeling of
:13:31. > :13:42.wanting him a little bit close. -- closer.
:13:43. > :13:49.The tragedy, which was at the time the worst school shooting in
:13:50. > :13:54.American history, cast a long shadow. Families were shattered.
:13:55. > :13:58.Sons and daughters dead. One teacher murdered as he tried to protect
:13:59. > :14:03.students. And those who were shocked that they and survived some of them
:14:04. > :14:06.living with the most horrific wounds.
:14:07. > :14:13.Have you been to the memorial? I have. What happened when he went
:14:14. > :14:20.there? I have been quite a few times. What I do is I sit there and
:14:21. > :14:27.in my head I talk to the kids, and the teacher who was there, without
:14:28. > :14:31.the rest of the world, without parents, lawyers, community... I
:14:32. > :14:39.just want them to know that I am thinking of them. And I will always
:14:40. > :14:58.think of them. Do you want to take a moment? I am
:14:59. > :15:08.OK. You talk a lot in the book about faith. Do you still believe in God?
:15:09. > :15:14.Not in the same way that I did before. But I wonder if you had
:15:15. > :15:28.religion before in a different way, whether you believe there is a God.
:15:29. > :15:34.I don't know, I go back and forth. The one thing I have hoped for again
:15:35. > :15:37.and again is that in some moment in this present life, or in the
:15:38. > :15:46.position or in the future like I will see him again. I am hoping I
:15:47. > :15:53.will see him again. The moment you believe in good and evil, you might
:15:54. > :15:56.be in a different place. I know. A lot of people will read this book in
:15:57. > :16:03.different ways because it means a lot to different groups, so it will
:16:04. > :16:06.mean a lot to the victims' families, to the survivors, some of whom are
:16:07. > :16:18.still in a wheelchair. What would you say to them? What do you say to
:16:19. > :16:27.them now? I have this feeling of wanting to say over and over again I
:16:28. > :16:33.am sorry, I am sorry, I am sorry. I know that such a thing is so
:16:34. > :16:40.completely inadequate. But I don't know what else to say besides I am
:16:41. > :16:45.sorry. I am just so sorry for what Dylan did. Thank you very much.
:16:46. > :16:50.And you can see the full-length version of that interview
:16:51. > :16:53.with Susan Klebold on a special edition of Our World on the BBC
:16:54. > :16:55.News Channel this Saturday and Sunday at 9.30pm.
:16:56. > :16:58.At the start of the week which may well define Britain's chances
:16:59. > :17:00.of staying in Europe or leaving it, and as David Cameron
:17:01. > :17:03.and Francois Hollande have a hastily arranged meeting in Paris tonight
:17:04. > :17:06.ahead of Thursday's Brussels summit, the European Council President sent
:17:07. > :17:10.Risk of break up is real as UK in EU negotiations very fragile.
:17:11. > :17:13."Fragile" is the word that could be applied to many elements of this
:17:14. > :17:17.Both the Government and the opposition are divided,
:17:18. > :17:20.and as our Political Editor David Grossman found out Labour officials
:17:21. > :17:26.have been attempting to keep a lid on their party's Eurosceptics.
:17:27. > :17:29.Labour used to be Britain's most Eurosceptic party.
:17:30. > :17:32.Here is Labour leader Hugh Gaitskell issuing dire warnings about joining
:17:33. > :17:50.We must be clear about this. It does mean if this is an idea the end of
:17:51. > :17:54.Britain as an independent nation state. I make no apology about
:17:55. > :18:00.repeating it, the end of 1000 years of history. You might say, it ends,
:18:01. > :18:01.but it is a decision that needs care and thought.
:18:02. > :18:06.I think it is anti-democratic, it is anti-socialist
:18:07. > :18:10.Its employment rate is high and its growth rate is low
:18:11. > :18:13.and looking at Southern Europe it has done terrible damage
:18:14. > :18:17.We have been on a long journey with this.
:18:18. > :18:20.Of course in 1983 famously we campaigned to pull out
:18:21. > :18:24.of the European Union and that helped to contribute to our most
:18:25. > :18:28.disastrous election result for a century.
:18:29. > :18:34.Our pivotal moment was Jacques Delors's speech to the TUC
:18:35. > :18:39.Congress in 1988 when he laid out the vision of a social Europe.
:18:40. > :18:42.Bruised from their third election defeat the labour movement became
:18:43. > :18:46.enthusiastic pro-Europeans almost overnight as a way of using Brussels
:18:47. > :18:50.to fight for the rights of working people.
:18:51. > :18:54.It is no secret that many of us have been sceptical about the benefits
:18:55. > :19:01.Colleagues, in the short term we have not a cat in hell's chance
:19:02. > :19:08.The only card game in town at the moment is in a town called
:19:09. > :19:12.Brussels and it is a game of poker where we have got to learn the rules
:19:13. > :19:18.By the mid-90s Labour had its most Euro enthusiastic leader ever,
:19:19. > :19:21.but many particularly on the left were unconvinced.
:19:22. > :19:31.They saw the EU as profoundly anti-democratic.
:19:32. > :19:36.We have European bureaucracy totally unaccountable to anybody. The powers
:19:37. > :19:40.have gone from national parliaments and they have gone to the commission
:19:41. > :19:42.and the Council of ministers and these are serious matters.
:19:43. > :19:47.Jeremy Corbyn did come down in favour of Britain's EU membership.
:19:48. > :19:50.There would have been mass resignations and rebellion
:19:51. > :19:55.I certainly let him know my view and this was a clear choice
:19:56. > :19:59.The word "maybe" is not on the ballot paper as I have always
:20:00. > :20:03.But I would give Jeremy Corbyn credit for being clear,
:20:04. > :20:06.not just on one occasion, but on many occasions since he took
:20:07. > :20:09.over the leadership, that he is going to campaign to stay
:20:10. > :20:15.But is the Labour Party trying to stifle debate on the referendum?
:20:16. > :20:18.Newsnight has obtained an e-mail from the party's general secretary
:20:19. > :20:21.Ian McNicol warning constituency parties that they should not
:20:22. > :20:26.be organising debates on whether to stay in the EU or not,
:20:27. > :20:29.but instead get fully behind the party's policy of
:20:30. > :20:35.The e-mail was sent to a local party officer who had enquired
:20:36. > :20:38.about organising an in-out referendum debate.
:20:39. > :20:40.The answer they received was a forwarded message
:20:41. > :20:43.from Ian McNicol, the party's general secretary, which pointed out
:20:44. > :20:46.that party conference had voted unanimously to support remaining
:20:47. > :20:52.Rather than having a debate, the e-mail said, on whether to
:20:53. > :20:55.support Britain's EU membership constituency Labour parties should
:20:56. > :20:57.be campaigning to keep Britain in the European Union in line
:20:58. > :21:01.with Labour's values and labour policy.
:21:02. > :21:04.I think they should not be nervous about having the debate.
:21:05. > :21:06.If they have got a strong case, let's hear it.
:21:07. > :21:09.We have got our case and we want to put it.
:21:10. > :21:11.We asked the Labour Party to comment on the e-mail.
:21:12. > :21:14.They denied banning Labour leave speakers, but said it was right that
:21:15. > :21:16.all official Labour events and meetings focused
:21:17. > :21:21.on their campaign to stake in the EU.
:21:22. > :21:24.With me now is John Mills, businessman and Labour donor
:21:25. > :21:27.who will lead the Vote Leave campaign and from Birmingham
:21:28. > :21:30.the Labour MP Emma Reynolds, who is a member of the cross party
:21:31. > :21:43.Good evening. What is your reaction to the idea that the general
:21:44. > :21:47.secretary is saying you should not be having any debates, you should
:21:48. > :21:56.only be campaigning for a yes vote? That is very unfortunate. There are
:21:57. > :22:00.a large number of Labour members who used to the Labour who have gone off
:22:01. > :22:04.to Ukip and the Conservatives and they have a different view from the
:22:05. > :22:08.Labour Party nationally. They want to hear the arguments on both sides.
:22:09. > :22:13.That does not stop you voting to stay in it that is the way you think
:22:14. > :22:17.the argument goes, but it is not right that the arguments for coming
:22:18. > :22:22.out should not be heard. They should be. Surely you cannot be happy with
:22:23. > :22:28.a directive that says you should not have a debate? I think the secretary
:22:29. > :22:33.general was right to say that we have had that debate at our party
:22:34. > :22:38.conference and we unanimously agreed on a motion put forward by the GMB
:22:39. > :22:43.trade union that we should campaign as a party to stay in the European
:22:44. > :22:48.Union. Jeremy Corbyn has been clear about that as well. We have only got
:22:49. > :22:53.until the 23rd of June to make that case. I think it is right the party
:22:54. > :22:58.leadership is saying to party members, the vast majority of whom
:22:59. > :23:05.are pro-European, let's get on with it and get on with the debate. Hang
:23:06. > :23:09.on. What John Mills was saying just now, electoral damage has been done
:23:10. > :23:16.to you in 40 for Labour seats with Ukip finishing second. It suggests
:23:17. > :23:21.there are some Labour voters who are Eurosceptic. Are you saying they are
:23:22. > :23:28.out in the cold? No, what I am saying... You are. We are taking a
:23:29. > :23:35.decision that we are pro-European and that has been the case for
:23:36. > :23:40.decades. We should have a discussion with Labour voters about these
:23:41. > :23:45.issues, of course we should. Can I be clear? You as an MP in your
:23:46. > :23:53.constituency could not have a debate that had people who said leave on
:23:54. > :23:57.the platform with you? That is the directive, you would not have that
:23:58. > :24:02.debate? I have had lots of debate with people on the other side of the
:24:03. > :24:07.argument, but the priority for me as a Labour MP is to go and talk to my
:24:08. > :24:12.constituents about the decision they will have to make possibly as early
:24:13. > :24:18.as June. That is my priority, but that is not to say I am not
:24:19. > :24:22.debating. I did a debate last week with a Eurosceptic. Of course those
:24:23. > :24:26.debates will keep happening, but the focus in the Labour Party is to make
:24:27. > :24:33.the case to remain in the union, based on our values. This is a
:24:34. > :24:37.whipped vote. There is nothing freak about this, there is no suspension
:24:38. > :24:42.of the whip. Do you believe there should be a suspension? The Labour
:24:43. > :24:48.Party has agreed that Labour Party members can act on either side and
:24:49. > :24:52.come out if they want to stay in, so the Labour Party is not stopping
:24:53. > :24:58.people. Let's talk about the Shadow Cabinet, are there people who want
:24:59. > :25:04.out in the Shadow cabinet? Yes, there are people sympathetic to
:25:05. > :25:12.coming out. I dead people in there now? Yes, several. Not vast numbers,
:25:13. > :25:14.but several. They are stopped by Cabinet responsibility from
:25:15. > :25:20.advocating coming out, and that I understand. But outside the Cabinet,
:25:21. > :25:30.as in 1975, people should be allowed to canvas and support staying out
:25:31. > :25:34.and staying in? Time is of the essence and it looks like there will
:25:35. > :25:39.be a referendum vote in June. Will we see Shadow Cabinet people coming
:25:40. > :25:44.out and supporting leading? I am not sure what will happen to be honest.
:25:45. > :25:47.It may well be that Cabinet responsibility will stop that
:25:48. > :25:52.happening. But that should not stop other people in the Labour Party,
:25:53. > :25:57.including a substantial minority, from being allowed to express their
:25:58. > :26:00.views. Why do you think we are not seen so much of Jeremy Corbyn
:26:01. > :26:06.talking about Europe at all. It has been left at Alan Johnson, yet it is
:26:07. > :26:08.one of the most important thing we are discussing in decades and Jeremy
:26:09. > :26:15.Corbyn is not leading from the front. This is important. Jeremy
:26:16. > :26:20.Corbyn and the entire Shadow Cabinet has signed up to a pro-European
:26:21. > :26:27.agreement with MPs in Parliament and over 90% of our MPs have signed up
:26:28. > :26:32.to that group. There are only a small number of MPs who want us to
:26:33. > :26:36.come out. The vast majority, the consensus, is we should campaign to
:26:37. > :26:40.stay in the EU. Jeremy Corbyn was very clear from the start of his
:26:41. > :26:45.leadership that is a party which he is leading we will be campaigning to
:26:46. > :26:49.stay in the European Union and he has been clear and consistent on
:26:50. > :26:52.that point. I wonder how many speeches he has made in the last few
:26:53. > :26:58.weeks about the importance of staying in Europe. He has made a
:26:59. > :27:01.number of speeches in Parliament because he has had to respond to the
:27:02. > :27:07.Prime Minister who has come back from a number of summits. But they
:27:08. > :27:12.are both on the same side. How do you think Jeremy Corbyn is doing in
:27:13. > :27:16.all this? He is under very substantial constraints because of
:27:17. > :27:17.Cabinet responsibility. Whether that is where his heart lies is another
:27:18. > :27:24.matter. Thank you all very much. The United Nations say that almost
:27:25. > :27:26.50 people have been killed in missile attacks on hospitals
:27:27. > :27:29.and schools in Syria, which it called a blatant violation
:27:30. > :27:38.of international law. Two of the hospitals that
:27:39. > :27:41.were hit were in Idlib, where rebels have taken control
:27:42. > :27:44.of the province and where Syrian and Russian fighter jets
:27:45. > :27:46.have been in operation. One target was a field
:27:47. > :27:48.hospital supported by MSF, and the organisation
:27:49. > :27:50.says its destruction will deprive At the Munich conferecne
:27:51. > :27:59.at the weekend, the Russian Prime Minister Dimitri Medvedev denied
:28:00. > :28:02.Russian planes had killed civilians but activists have blamed Russia
:28:03. > :28:04.for all three attacks. I'm joined now by Andre Heller
:28:05. > :28:07.Perache, Head of Programs at Medecins Sans Frontieres UK
:28:08. > :28:20.who has been monitoring Good evening. What is the latest on
:28:21. > :28:27.these attacks in Syria? From the information we have got today, there
:28:28. > :28:31.are rescue operations to find more survivors and it has stopped with
:28:32. > :28:37.nightfall. Seven people were confirmed dead within the hospital,
:28:38. > :28:40.including patients and personnel. There are eight still missing
:28:41. > :28:46.presumed dead that we are aware of and beyond that there are additional
:28:47. > :28:49.patients who were in the hospital. You are pretty sure you were
:28:50. > :28:55.targeted rather than it being collateral damage? Effectively it
:28:56. > :28:58.was direct targeting and by that I mean there were successive air
:28:59. > :29:02.strikes on the same location, the hospital, totally destroy it in
:29:03. > :29:06.multiple waves of attacks over the course of 90 minutes. If it was a
:29:07. > :29:12.bomb hitting that then close by, that discussion can be had, but this
:29:13. > :29:18.was targeted repeatedly. It is not something one can write off saying
:29:19. > :29:23.it is an unfortunate event. It is too bad this happened. It is beyond
:29:24. > :29:28.that. What is the policy now of announcing where you are? It is a
:29:29. > :29:33.complicated question, particularly in Syria. Over the course of this
:29:34. > :29:38.conflict there have been multiple instances, it has been a feature of
:29:39. > :29:40.this conflict, that humanitarian structures as well as protected
:29:41. > :29:46.human infrastructure has been repeatedly targeted deliberately,
:29:47. > :29:52.like schools, marketplaces, grain silos, clinics, bakeries. They all
:29:53. > :29:58.have signage. This structure did not have signage on the outside. What I
:29:59. > :30:02.am saying is the other ones. Prior to this we have known that they were
:30:03. > :30:04.hospitals, but in this case we do not openly advertise this is a
:30:05. > :30:15.hospital? Over 240 hospitals have been
:30:16. > :30:21.destroyed. One cannot say that this is an identification error of the
:30:22. > :30:24.structure. This hospital had been relocated from its previous location
:30:25. > :30:28.where it had been targeted and struck three times. People are
:30:29. > :30:32.afraid to say they are doing medical work. If you are an aid worker
:30:33. > :30:36.within Syria right now, and we are talking about Syrians by and large,
:30:37. > :30:42.they know the risks. They know they can be a target. Aid has been turned
:30:43. > :30:45.into a target, as well. We talk about the number of hospitals, an
:30:46. > :30:49.astonishing amount have been targeted and destroyed, what is the
:30:50. > :30:56.impact on health care more broadly in Syria? I have read some
:30:57. > :30:59.statistics which says 60% of the general public hospitals within
:31:00. > :31:04.Syria have been destroyed since the beginning of this conflict. In this
:31:05. > :31:08.particular instance we are talking about a small hospital with two
:31:09. > :31:12.operating theatres, an emergency room, and an outpatient department.
:31:13. > :31:19.They have seen 5500 external cases per month. 1100 emergency cases per
:31:20. > :31:23.month. You talk about the number of lives being saved. But when you look
:31:24. > :31:27.at the scale of the conflict, Medecins Sans Frontieres is
:31:28. > :31:33.supporting a large amount of structures within the country, but
:31:34. > :31:36.there are millions of people who have been displaced. Millions of
:31:37. > :31:43.people along the borders trying to escape. The suffering is
:31:44. > :31:48.unimaginable right now. Aleppo was referred to at the weekend as
:31:49. > :31:55.Stalingrad. We have been doing everything in our power to support
:31:56. > :32:00.as many networks as possible. Aid workers, doctors, in the suburbs of
:32:01. > :32:05.Damascus, this year alone the kinds of risks these people are taking
:32:06. > :32:10.means 17 separate medical structures have been hit in 2016 and it is only
:32:11. > :32:13.mid February. This is the fifth structure which has been supported
:32:14. > :32:17.by some measure by Medecins Sans Frontieres which has been hit alone.
:32:18. > :32:20.The pressure on people is unbelievable. And that pressure
:32:21. > :32:23.continues to grow with time. Things are just getting worse. Thank you
:32:24. > :32:24.very much. A debate on the topic
:32:25. > :32:26.of "Re-Radicalising Queers" is not taking place at Canterbury Christ
:32:27. > :32:28.Church University tonight, because one of the participants
:32:29. > :32:31.didn't want to share a platform So, is Peter Tatchell
:32:32. > :32:33.guilty by association, or should we applaud student
:32:34. > :32:47.activitists for doing what they can You do not witness the suffering of
:32:48. > :32:50.lesbian and gay people. Racist and transphobe are not words that
:32:51. > :32:58.normally spring to mind when we talk about Peter Tatchell. Your long
:32:59. > :33:13.history of anti-Semitism, homophobia, and attacks on the
:33:14. > :33:15.Muslim community... Doctor Greer had offended and insulted some activists
:33:16. > :33:22.when she expressed her view that transwomen are not women simply by
:33:23. > :33:22.their desire to be thought of as such.
:33:23. > :33:24.So, is Peter Tatchell guilty by association,
:33:25. > :33:28.or should we applaud student activitists for doing what they can
:33:29. > :33:36.I'm joined by Peter Tatchell and Paris Lees.
:33:37. > :33:48.Did you get flak at the debate? It was a debate about the future of
:33:49. > :33:55.LGBT politics. I am sad she did not attend. I would have welcomed an
:33:56. > :34:01.exchange. She has every right to do this. What I object to is the fact
:34:02. > :34:04.she labelled me a racist and a transphobe. And when asked to
:34:05. > :34:07.justify her views she failed to do so. There is the evidence. She
:34:08. > :34:17.didn't offer evidence even when asked. What has been the impact on
:34:18. > :34:22.you? We asked the NUS to come on tonight and they wouldn't. It is not
:34:23. > :34:26.just that you didn't want -- it isn't that she did not want just due
:34:27. > :34:31.to take part, but she didn't want others to take part, as well. I
:34:32. > :34:34.respect her. But this is not about me. This is about the rights of
:34:35. > :34:39.black and ethnic minority background people, and the rights of trans
:34:40. > :34:43.people. I have constantly criticised those feminist who disrespect
:34:44. > :34:46.transit people and oppose their human rights. I constantly challenge
:34:47. > :34:52.those who deny the human rights of black and Asian people and will
:34:53. > :34:55.continue to do so. Paris Lees, this debate was about gay rights tonight,
:34:56. > :35:05.it was nothing to do with the rights of trans people. We did defend trans
:35:06. > :35:10.people. So what is the problem with somebody taking part in a debate
:35:11. > :35:15.with Peter? I would like to say that Peter Tatchell is not a transphobe
:35:16. > :35:18.in my opinion. I think it is ludicrous to suggest that. He is a
:35:19. > :35:21.national treasure as far as I am concerned and one of the few people
:35:22. > :35:27.who spoke up for transgender rights on a public platform a few years ago
:35:28. > :35:32.and nobody was talking about this. I'm very grateful to him for that. I
:35:33. > :35:36.think there is a lot of anger towards Peter because of signing
:35:37. > :35:42.that letter. Not just signing it, but maybe your reaction afterwards
:35:43. > :35:47.wasn't that helpful. I think, you know, to call him a transphobe is a
:35:48. > :35:52.little over the top, but I think it is somebody getting carried away. To
:35:53. > :35:56.come to the issue of this, I think it is unfortunate Peter has been
:35:57. > :36:00.involved in this debate. But more broadly, yes I think it is right
:36:01. > :36:04.that people should not engage with transphobe O'. I don't think Peter
:36:05. > :36:14.is one of those people, but for some people there is no point speaking to
:36:15. > :36:17.them. -- transphobes. You take people on in order to have that
:36:18. > :36:22.debate and you win it when you are fighting for the rights of people.
:36:23. > :36:25.There is also an argument that marginalised people have had to
:36:26. > :36:31.explain themselves over and over again. There are certain people who
:36:32. > :36:34.are just not willing to engage in debate. They have heard the
:36:35. > :36:39.arguments. That is a different kettle of fish from Peter. This
:36:40. > :36:44.person has made personal attacks on individual trans people before. They
:36:45. > :36:48.have argued for conversion therapy, which has proved to be very
:36:49. > :36:53.dangerous. Those people should not be given platforms to air their
:36:54. > :36:57.prejudices. I understand the anger. Given the scale of violence towards
:36:58. > :37:00.trans people, the discrimination, all of the medical issues, the
:37:01. > :37:05.hurdles they have to go through the transition, and all of those kinds
:37:06. > :37:11.of issues... We need to be talking about that. But I also think, in my
:37:12. > :37:18.view, the best way to defeat bigoted prejudiced ideas is to take on a
:37:19. > :37:22.challenge by taking on people who say it. That is why I have challenge
:37:23. > :37:27.Germaine Greer and many others. I did a debate last year against
:37:28. > :37:30.Islamist extremists. I think I demolished them. That was far more
:37:31. > :37:35.effective than if I had stayed away and they were allowed to say
:37:36. > :37:38.whatever they wanted. But you can understand why people feel they
:37:39. > :37:43.don't have a power and they withdraw. Absolutely. I respect
:37:44. > :37:47.that. And I'm really sorry if trans people felt offended by me taking
:37:48. > :37:51.that stand and signing that letter. My intention was never to give
:37:52. > :37:57.endorsement to Germaine Greer or any other feminist who opposes trans
:37:58. > :38:01.rights. Those people are wrong. They are deniers of human rights. They
:38:02. > :38:05.are on the wrong side of history. I stand with the trans community for
:38:06. > :38:16.their writes, acceptance, and dignity. -- rights. The argument is
:38:17. > :38:22.whether their views should be aired. You believe that these issues should
:38:23. > :38:27.be taken on and argued down. Exactly. I am lucky because I have a
:38:28. > :38:31.lot of experience... With a way to get experience is to do it. Others
:38:32. > :38:36.may not have that experience, and are therefore in a difficult
:38:37. > :38:39.position. Germaine Greer has been going around saying the most
:38:40. > :38:44.disgusting, dehumanising things about trans people for decades.
:38:45. > :38:49.Completely unchallenged. Lauded in the media. You didn't have trans
:38:50. > :38:54.people on this show 15, 20 years ago, maybe not even five years ago.
:38:55. > :39:00.You are only aware of us because of social media. We had a number of big
:39:01. > :39:06.stories, transgender rights, trans people in prisons. We have made
:39:07. > :39:08.ourselves known, that we are visible, but nobody was challenging
:39:09. > :39:15.Germaine Greer. When I was in University six years ago I
:39:16. > :39:18.experienced family rejection, street harassment, I didn't blend in when I
:39:19. > :39:24.first transition. I was being messed about by the NHS. I faced
:39:25. > :39:29.discrimination at work. I had mental health issues. Had I known Germaine
:39:30. > :39:31.Greer was coming to my university, because of all the horrible things
:39:32. > :39:37.she said about trans people, because, let's face it, if Nick
:39:38. > :39:40.Griffin goes anywhere he is a known racist and is challenged. But if
:39:41. > :39:44.Germaine Greer is going somewhere, everybody gets excited about it. I
:39:45. > :39:47.think that would be enough to tip me over the edge and I'm not a weak
:39:48. > :39:53.person. It doesn't happen in a vacuum. Do you think there has been
:39:54. > :39:59.a generational change, and what is acceptable and unacceptable is
:40:00. > :40:03.different? And maybe the younger activists are even more successful.
:40:04. > :40:08.Maybe that's true. But I think that is a negative move. I understand why
:40:09. > :40:11.they say what they say. I have sympathy for those in the NUS when
:40:12. > :40:16.they wanted to defend the weak and the marginal. That is an honourable
:40:17. > :40:21.position to take. But I think they are wrong to try and close down
:40:22. > :40:26.debate, or exclude people, who they disagree with. The best way to
:40:27. > :40:29.challenge bigot is by taking them on, refuting their arguments,
:40:30. > :40:33.providing counter evidence, because that, I think, is the way to win
:40:34. > :40:39.hearts and minds. If we don't convince the bigots, at least we
:40:40. > :40:43.will convince the wider public. I think free speech has been expanded
:40:44. > :40:49.for people who never previously had a voice. You are nobody these days
:40:50. > :41:00.if you haven't been on a platform. Thank you both.
:41:01. > :41:07.who was at the Welsh open and rolling towards that holy
:41:08. > :41:10.Then he found out what the prize money was.
:41:11. > :41:14.He has just had a look at me in the commentary box and I have put
:41:15. > :41:18.Sometimes he doesn't try if it is not enough.
:41:19. > :41:22.He didn't look too impressed when you said it was only
:41:23. > :41:26.See he is not even going for one now.
:41:27. > :41:32.If they are going to pay you ten grand, it's worth a bit