:00:00. > :00:07.European leaders so worn out, they're struggling to find words
:00:08. > :00:17.Today, the UK is still a member of the European Union,
:00:18. > :00:23.and I have a feeling that it will not change...
:00:24. > :00:28.We'll ask if it'll have to be watered down,
:00:29. > :00:32.Also tonight - we're in the migrant processing camps
:00:33. > :00:37.Will the rest of Europe allow the migrants through?
:00:38. > :00:39.People here will confess privately that they are
:00:40. > :00:42.losing faith that other Europeans will keep their part of this
:00:43. > :00:46.bargain, and that very soon Greece could find itself cut off
:00:47. > :00:48.from Schengen, from the rest of Europe,
:00:49. > :00:53.left to deal with this problem on their own.
:00:54. > :01:04.All we now need is the money to pay for it.
:01:05. > :01:06.If you look at the cost of these treatments,
:01:07. > :01:10.12 weeks of treatment for one person.
:01:11. > :01:12.That same treatment is being sold in the
:01:13. > :01:18.How can those who speak for the pharmaceutical industry
:01:19. > :01:32.Britain's day of destiny is tomorrow - well, tomorrow and Friday.
:01:33. > :01:36.What we think tonight is that there is still
:01:37. > :01:40.We expected to have a draft agreement this evening,
:01:41. > :01:45.We'll digest where we are shortly, but first, our political editor,
:01:46. > :01:48.David Grossman, reports from Brussels.
:01:49. > :01:51.From about three o'clock tomorrow afternoon, down that ramp,
:01:52. > :01:54.will sweep the 28 cars of the heads of government
:01:55. > :01:57.of the EU, arriving for a crisis summit,
:01:58. > :02:03.I have been covering these things for about 15 years and I have to say
:02:04. > :02:05.this one is about as important as they get.
:02:06. > :02:07.The cars will stop where that one is.
:02:08. > :02:13.They will maybe even say a few choice words to the reporters
:02:14. > :02:18.gathered here, as they bound in towards destiny.
:02:19. > :02:20.As they come through those doors, they will go up
:02:21. > :02:23.that step over there and pose in front of the flags.
:02:24. > :02:25.There will be warm handshakes but then the
:02:26. > :02:29.Of course, there is lots of preparation
:02:30. > :02:32.already being done in advance by emissaries, the so-called Sherpas
:02:33. > :02:36.The interesting thing about this summit,
:02:37. > :02:40.it seems to me, is it has been more intensively prepared than most.
:02:41. > :02:44.I think by the time David Cameron sent his first public letter
:02:45. > :02:47.to the president of the European Council at the back end
:02:48. > :02:49.of last year, he had already done several months of going
:02:50. > :02:52.round the capitals, and I can't remember a Prime Minister who has
:02:53. > :02:55.done more than that personal diplomacy.
:02:56. > :02:58.That meticulous diplomacy has happened for a very simple reason.
:02:59. > :03:02.For David Cameron, the stakes could not be higher.
:03:03. > :03:05.What will at this summit, amd the referendum which follows,
:03:06. > :03:14.David Cameron, I think was shaken by the adverse press reaction
:03:15. > :03:17.to the deal when it was first put forward by Tusk a couple
:03:18. > :03:20.His margin for manoeuvre is generally quite small.
:03:21. > :03:23.On the other hand, of course, the notion that he would come back
:03:24. > :03:26.and say, I have failed and I have to recommend the British people
:03:27. > :03:29.that we have to come out of the European Union
:03:30. > :03:33.He is on a very narrow path that sense.
:03:34. > :03:38.He could fall off on either side of the cliff edge as it were.
:03:39. > :03:43.Will the Prime Minister persuade you to back him today?
:03:44. > :03:48.Then of course David Cameron has his party to deal with.
:03:49. > :03:51.Boris Johnson, as yet undeclared, was in to discuss the matter
:03:52. > :03:55.with the Prime Minister in Downing Street today.
:03:56. > :03:59.As he left, there was no clue as to what had been said.
:04:00. > :04:01.I have said before, there is no point in saying anything
:04:02. > :04:10.Of course, it is not just David Cameron who has to walk
:04:11. > :04:15.Every other EU leader have to juggle domestic opinion
:04:16. > :04:21.European governments have been really keen to accommodate
:04:22. > :04:26.British requests, British needs and understands there is an issue
:04:27. > :04:31.But at the same time, they don't want to create
:04:32. > :04:36.a precedent which will trigger off a domino effect of other countries
:04:37. > :04:44.There is this delicate balance that has been sought
:04:45. > :04:49.over the past few months which is now becoming critical,
:04:50. > :04:52.and I think today we are seeing that every day a new member state
:04:53. > :04:55.is raising a few more objections, so much so that we don't actually
:04:56. > :04:57.know how the meeting tomorrow will go.
:04:58. > :04:59.And of course, at every EU summit,
:05:00. > :05:00.there are personal relationships to navigate.
:05:01. > :05:07.I was at one summit where Helmut Kohl, the German Chancellor
:05:08. > :05:10.almost thumped the Spanish Prime Minister he was so angry with him.
:05:11. > :05:13.And another summit where Schroeder, the then German Chancellor,
:05:14. > :05:16.who was a close friend of Tony Blair's told
:05:17. > :05:19.him to "F off" at one point, simply because he was exhausted.
:05:20. > :05:26.Once agreement is reached, the champagne corks pop
:05:27. > :05:33.In a way, sometimes it has to go down to the wire.
:05:34. > :05:38.You have to look over the cliff edge to see that the alternative
:05:39. > :05:44.From dawn tomorrow, these desks will start filling up
:05:45. > :05:46.with journalists from all over the world.
:05:47. > :05:49.This is big news, of course, not just in Europe.
:05:50. > :05:54.The big question is, what story will they write?
:05:55. > :06:14.Well, I don't know how much we read into this fact, but the channels by
:06:15. > :06:17.which we expected to receive tonight at least some possible tentative
:06:18. > :06:23.solutions to the problem is that this deal has, we expected to hear
:06:24. > :06:27.some more details, but those channels have gone quiet. On the
:06:28. > :06:31.record, we are told that David Cameron and Donald task, the EU
:06:32. > :06:36.Council president, had a constructive phone call where they
:06:37. > :06:41.agreed that good progress had been made and good basis for a deal had
:06:42. > :06:46.been found. In truth, this form of words we have heard in various forms
:06:47. > :06:50.for months now. Off the record we are hearing a slightly different
:06:51. > :06:56.picture. More distance between the British position and those of David
:06:57. > :06:59.Cameron's EU partners on the question of ever-closer union.
:07:00. > :07:04.Britain still not happy with that form of words that's been agreed so
:07:05. > :07:10.far in the draft. The safeguard mechanism by which out of work
:07:11. > :07:15.benefits may be denied EU citizens arriving in Britain, still much work
:07:16. > :07:21.to be done on that. One senior EU source said tonight that it was
:07:22. > :07:26.still unclear and unlikely that we would get the precise details of how
:07:27. > :07:31.that would work by the time Britain votes in a referendum, presuming
:07:32. > :07:36.that is on the 23rd of June. And the other matter, child benefit. It
:07:37. > :07:40.wasn't envisage that tomorrow when these EU leaders meet they would be
:07:41. > :07:46.discussing child benefit. It looks like that's how they're going to be
:07:47. > :07:50.doing it. One country that has come forward, we already know that many
:07:51. > :07:55.eastern European countries are unhappy with benefits being denied
:07:56. > :07:59.their citizens. In Romania, 1 million of their citizens are
:08:00. > :08:06.working in Spain and Italy, and they are very concerned that a deal done
:08:07. > :08:10.in Britain is not translated to their citizens in Italy and Spain.
:08:11. > :08:15.The political danger for Cameron is, yes, it is very likely a deal will
:08:16. > :08:21.be done. This town wants to move on to talk about the euro and
:08:22. > :08:25.migration. The danger for Cameron is that the compromise, the
:08:26. > :08:31.concessions, the fudge, whatever you want to call it, is so impenetrable
:08:32. > :08:35.to people at home, it looks like to be ordinary voters that he's done
:08:36. > :08:38.nothing to get what he said he was coming here to get. Thank very much.
:08:39. > :08:40.Joining me now is the prominent eurosceptic Jacob Rees-Mogg,
:08:41. > :08:41.and Neil Carmichael, Chair of the pro-remain
:08:42. > :08:54.Good evening. There does seem to be a sense that it isn't going well
:08:55. > :09:01.tonight. Jacob Rees-Mogg, is that genuine? It is what you expect
:09:02. > :09:07.around these negotiations, so they go through the night and then our
:09:08. > :09:12.hero returns triumphant! We've seen all of this before in European
:09:13. > :09:16.negotiations. My guess is that most of it is broadly agreed. We haven't
:09:17. > :09:23.asked for anything except thin gruel. There's no reason for the EU
:09:24. > :09:28.not to give it to us. That's where we are, it will all work out, and
:09:29. > :09:32.then we will be supposed to rejoice when the Prime Minister returns.
:09:33. > :09:37.Neil Carmichael, do you agree? The key point here is that the Prime
:09:38. > :09:41.Minister is representing Britain's interests. We have to get it across
:09:42. > :09:46.to the electorate that the best deal is where the UK can stay in the
:09:47. > :09:50.European Union, but have some meaningful reforms, and be a
:09:51. > :09:56.catalyst for further reform beyond. Angela Merkel's point, which I was
:09:57. > :10:02.on your programme earlier, about there needs to be reformed, is
:10:03. > :10:05.right. One of the issues that does appear to be nitty-gritty, and you
:10:06. > :10:11.can dismiss this, but there are other countries that have their own
:10:12. > :10:15.internal political needs. It is this one about child benefit being cut
:10:16. > :10:20.for a existing migrants whose children are back home. Is that a
:10:21. > :10:26.significant neat -- thing for them to be arguing about? There's only
:10:27. > :10:32.34,000 of them claiming signal it sends. It's about whether or not we
:10:33. > :10:38.have control over our benefits system. We are seeking to get that
:10:39. > :10:42.control, so a signal to the people at home and also to the European
:10:43. > :10:48.Union as a whole, is that we want some control, and that's what we're
:10:49. > :10:54.going to seek. Do you think it is significant? It's trivial. But it is
:10:55. > :10:58.symbolic of the failures of the EU. Why are we paying benefits for
:10:59. > :11:03.children who do not live in the United Kingdom? Our benefits is for
:11:04. > :11:09.people who live in this country, not for people who live abroad. It is
:11:10. > :11:13.not up to us. If we cannot get this relatively straightforward, minor
:11:14. > :11:18.thing, it is not a great thing we have asked for and is not the
:11:19. > :11:22.driving force of immigration. People are not flooding to the United
:11:23. > :11:27.Kingdom for a few pounds of child benefit. They come here because we
:11:28. > :11:31.are a more prosperous country. It is on the margins, and it -- if it is
:11:32. > :11:37.difficult, it shows the failure of the EU more than anything else.
:11:38. > :11:40.Jacob Rees-Mogg, you think that the Prime Minister couldn't have got
:11:41. > :11:45.more, and that shows how difficult it is to deal with the EU, or do you
:11:46. > :11:52.think you should and could have got more? I think he was out negotiated
:11:53. > :11:57.by Angela Merkel early on. In good faith, he set out what he wanted to
:11:58. > :12:02.do. He wanted fundamental reform of our relationship with the EU. That
:12:03. > :12:07.was set out in the Conservative manifesto, and that is what he said
:12:08. > :12:10.on a number of occasions before the formal negotiations started. He
:12:11. > :12:15.spoke to the German Chancellor last year and she said she wasn't going
:12:16. > :12:20.to give these reforms. He went along with that and asked for very little.
:12:21. > :12:24.If you look at the Sun newspaper, there was a very interesting poll
:12:25. > :12:33.about Lord Ashcroft about how pop killer the UK is in Europe. -- how
:12:34. > :12:37.popular. We are the second most popular country after Sweden. They
:12:38. > :12:42.would have been willing to give us a good deal. Could he have got more if
:12:43. > :12:47.he had more ambitious goals? I think the big jewel in the crown is making
:12:48. > :12:52.sure the single market is covering all the areas it should. The
:12:53. > :12:57.economy, the world of energy and so on, and that's something I think he
:12:58. > :13:03.can deliver, a really important part of the negotiations. In this
:13:04. > :13:08.argument, we often go down some sort of small channel, when actually it's
:13:09. > :13:13.the overall interests of the British economy that will matter. It's all
:13:14. > :13:18.very well saying, people want to come to prosperous Britain. We are
:13:19. > :13:23.in the European Union. We are prosperous partly because of that,
:13:24. > :13:27.and we've got to accept that. To risk that would be extraordinarily
:13:28. > :13:32.unwise. Let's briefly talk about the effect of this on your party.
:13:33. > :13:36.Tonight, the most prominent conservative who isn't an MP, Tim
:13:37. > :13:40.Montgomery, is saying he is leaving the party, I think on the ground
:13:41. > :13:47.that it isn't quite blue enough, in his view. We heard this a few
:13:48. > :13:51.minutes before we went on air. Some say he is maybe trying to cajole
:13:52. > :13:58.Michael Gove and Boris into supporting the outside. Where do you
:13:59. > :14:01.think he stands? In terms of his position, I think commentators often
:14:02. > :14:06.find it easier to leave the party they belong to. My father left the
:14:07. > :14:10.Conservative Party in the early 1960s when he realised he was going
:14:11. > :14:16.to be more of a journalist than a politician. It is much more easy to
:14:17. > :14:22.speak out if you are not a member of a party.
:14:23. > :14:30.Are you expecting Boris and goes to tilt to the outside? We welcome
:14:31. > :14:37.everyone to our cause, even you and Neil if he sees the light. Do you
:14:38. > :14:42.think it is plausible that those two very big beasts... First of all, I
:14:43. > :14:46.want to say I agree with Jacob about Tim. If someone is going down the
:14:47. > :14:52.journalist route it is probably easier for him not to be part of the
:14:53. > :14:55.Conservative Party. We do not want to get too obsessed with
:14:56. > :15:00.personalities. The Prime Minister is leader of the government. He is our
:15:01. > :15:04.principal negotiator. He is the one, if we decide to end up fighting to
:15:05. > :15:08.remain in, we will lead that campaign. That is the most important
:15:09. > :15:15.person out of all of this story. Boris is a great man. I hope he
:15:16. > :15:18.would join us as well. Thank you both.
:15:19. > :15:20.Well, Britain may be stealing the European show for a day,
:15:21. > :15:23.but what they really want to talk about in Brussels is migration.
:15:24. > :15:26.Greece is centre stage on that - its failure to process migrants
:15:27. > :15:28.and refugees properly, causing anger among the other states.
:15:29. > :15:35.Mark Urban has gone to see if the situation is improving.
:15:36. > :15:49.Mark, we were talking about Brexit and those negotiations, you are
:15:50. > :15:54.talking about migrants, there are links between those issues?
:15:55. > :15:59.Absolutely. It was reverberating in my head about all the linkages.
:16:00. > :16:05.Chancellor Merkel is crucial in both these matters. She made this deal
:16:06. > :16:08.with David Cameron to go with if you like the lesser package of reforms,
:16:09. > :16:12.in turn she would give her wholehearted backing to Britain's
:16:13. > :16:17.case. What has happened instead is she has had to expend a lot of time
:16:18. > :16:21.and political capital and run down the favour bank on the migration
:16:22. > :16:26.issue instead, because the German people care so much about it. That
:16:27. > :16:33.has had all sorts of consequences that read across, but in particular,
:16:34. > :16:37.in relation to a group of nations, Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic
:16:38. > :16:41.and Slovakia. They have been the most energetic in attacking her on
:16:42. > :16:46.migration, but they are the ones now leading the resistance on the child
:16:47. > :16:51.benefit issue you were talking about earlier, on the Brexit agenda so
:16:52. > :16:57.they read across both stories. In relation to migration they have been
:16:58. > :17:02.asking for very tough action. Pressure in Macedonia, which is the
:17:03. > :17:07.country to the north of here, to close its borders altogether,
:17:08. > :17:11.pressuring the EU, to completely seal off Greece from the Schengen
:17:12. > :17:13.area, if changes are not made in the next three months.
:17:14. > :17:18.Evenings are the time for protest in Diavata,
:17:19. > :17:20.a hard done by neighbourhood on the outskirts
:17:21. > :17:49.Diavata has been chosen as one of half a dozen points
:17:50. > :17:53.for the screening and onward dispatch of refugees.
:17:54. > :17:56.There's a camp being built, and people don't like it,
:17:57. > :18:00.and with rumours of borders further north closing,
:18:01. > :18:03.Apostoll Giapoutsis, one of the protest leaders,
:18:04. > :18:06.says the numbers here could soon swell.
:18:07. > :18:08.These people are not going to be able to escape.
:18:09. > :18:14.So I think the big issue is how many Syrians we will actually be able
:18:15. > :18:23.The police were there in strength to block them,
:18:24. > :18:27.and there's little more people can do than sing and voice their anger
:18:28. > :18:38.The Army has been deployed for the first time since the refugee
:18:39. > :18:42.crisis got piled onto Greece's other woes.
:18:43. > :18:46.Because Europe is now threatening to freeze Greece out
:18:47. > :18:53.unless it makes a better job of screening refugees.
:18:54. > :18:56.We understand very well that there is a delay
:18:57. > :18:59.in the development of European policy about this problem -
:19:00. > :19:02.the problem of the war in Syria, and of course the problem
:19:03. > :19:09.So we have to work with Europe, we have to work together with other
:19:10. > :19:13.countries, to solve this problem that is a common problem.
:19:14. > :19:16.Greece now is the brother of the whole Europe.
:19:17. > :19:19.That means we are waiting and we are hosting the refugees
:19:20. > :19:25.So there is an obligation for Europe also to help Greece for all this
:19:26. > :19:32.This place is intended to shelter 1,500 refugees normally,
:19:33. > :19:39.But for it to work as simply a waypoint on their journey north,
:19:40. > :19:43.everyone in the EU has to cooperate, and the last few months hardly give
:19:44. > :19:49.All of this work here is part of an EU plan to receive refugees,
:19:50. > :19:53.process them, and then pass them on to other European countries.
:19:54. > :19:58.But what people here will confess privately is that they are losing
:19:59. > :20:01.faith that other Europeans will keep their part of this
:20:02. > :20:03.bargain, and that very soon, Greece could find itself being cut
:20:04. > :20:07.off from Schengen, from the rest of Europe, left to deal with this
:20:08. > :20:17.An hour to the north of Thessaloniki is the Macedonian border.
:20:18. > :20:23.And it's here that you can see an alternative future taking shape.
:20:24. > :20:27.Egged on by Hungary and the rest of the states of the Visegrad Four,
:20:28. > :20:29.the so-called double fence is being put in place,
:20:30. > :20:37.As police from the Czech Republic and Slovakia -
:20:38. > :20:48.also Visegrad countries - look on, people are checked for false papers.
:20:49. > :21:00.For those watching waiting to be checked, it's one more stage
:21:01. > :21:09.This man has already spent $1,500 travelling this far
:21:10. > :21:35.If the Turkish catch us, I don't try it again.
:21:36. > :21:40.This woman, too, was turned back, and quickly became distraught.
:21:41. > :21:43.This is the human reality of tightened controls on those
:21:44. > :21:50.who come through Greece with fake papers or as economic migrants.
:21:51. > :21:53.There are other problems on this border too.
:21:54. > :21:59.Those stemming from Greece's long struggle with EU-mandated austerity.
:22:00. > :22:06.Farmers have taken to blocking the highway to Macedonia.
:22:07. > :22:34.lumping us in with what they see as a hostile northern Europe.
:22:35. > :22:41.Their organiser even stopped one farmer explaining their protest.
:22:42. > :22:44.It's Greece's current crisis, and its poverty, that lead many
:22:45. > :22:48.other EU countries to suppose that it cannot exercise proper
:22:49. > :22:54.Macedonia, meanwhile, is coming under pressure
:22:55. > :22:59.There's been so much protest here that
:23:00. > :23:04.Between 10.00 and 12.00, the Macedonian taxi drivers,
:23:05. > :23:07.who are upset that they are being cut out of the refugee-shifting
:23:08. > :23:10.business do their thing, and from 2.00 until 4.00,
:23:11. > :23:13.the Greek farmers blockade the other side.
:23:14. > :23:18.They've got their own economic grievances with their government.
:23:19. > :23:21.And it is upon these two governments, Greece and Macedonia,
:23:22. > :23:30.that the EU rests its hopes for solving the migrant crisis.
:23:31. > :23:34.Caught for years in the vice of economic crisis, Greeks now find
:23:35. > :23:39.themselves under threat of being frozen out of Schengen.
:23:40. > :23:42.Little wonder that people here don't know what else can be thrown at them
:23:43. > :23:45.unless something happens to reduce the numbers using this country
:23:46. > :24:05.Mark, briefly tell us if there is anything that can prove Greece some
:24:06. > :24:10.hope that it will not be booted out from the Schengen zone? It is
:24:11. > :24:14.fascinating. We noticed very few refugees in the transit facilities
:24:15. > :24:17.near the border the other day. Yesterday, the police minister said
:24:18. > :24:23.only 200 had come across from Turkey to the island. Today, some people
:24:24. > :24:27.have said none at all. Potentially, this is very significant. The aid
:24:28. > :24:31.organisations say, be careful, there have been dips before and the
:24:32. > :24:39.numbers have picked up again. But some people are speculating it is to
:24:40. > :24:41.do with the change of policy by Turkey, the possibility of Nato, the
:24:42. > :24:44.certainty that Nato will soon come in, but the possibility that that
:24:45. > :24:49.could have a dramatic affect on the smugglers. All of this will be
:24:50. > :24:52.deeply significant not just for Greece, but for Chancellor Merkel's
:24:53. > :24:56.political position back home. Some say it could cost her her job if
:24:57. > :25:01.this carries on. Potentially, this could get very interesting in the
:25:02. > :25:06.next few days, if we see if this pattern is something which signals a
:25:07. > :25:08.new phase. Thank you. It is perhaps an under-reported
:25:09. > :25:11.breakthrough that new drugs are now available to cure hepatitis C
:25:12. > :25:14.in the vast majority of patients. Now you might say, "Three cheers
:25:15. > :25:17.for the pharmaceutical industry!" It's cracked the problem
:25:18. > :25:19.of a chronic viral condition that affects 200 million people
:25:20. > :25:21.around the world. But you might alternatively think,
:25:22. > :25:24.this just proves the evil of big pharma, because the new drugs
:25:25. > :25:28.are priced very high. Hepatitis C raises the thorny
:25:29. > :25:31.question as to what the rewards for drug companies'
:25:32. > :25:35.innovation should be. In this country, the National
:25:36. > :25:38.Institute for Health and Care Excellence for England
:25:39. > :25:40.and Wales has given a green light to the expensive treatments
:25:41. > :25:44.for many patients. That guidance should
:25:45. > :25:47.take effect any day now, but some categories of patient,
:25:48. > :25:51.still have to wait. The filmmaker Kate Brown had the HPC
:25:52. > :25:56.virus, but has been cured of it, and looked at the challenge
:25:57. > :26:03.for patients of getting the drugs. I'm waiting for the results,
:26:04. > :26:07.for my end of treatment results. So she's going to fax them
:26:08. > :26:11.straight through to him and hopefully he will
:26:12. > :26:13.get back to me. Sean Reddin, desperate and unable
:26:14. > :26:17.to get hepatitis C treatment within the health system has taken
:26:18. > :26:25.matters into his own hands. Millions worldwide
:26:26. > :26:29.face this dilemma. I have been making a film
:26:30. > :26:32.about access to treatment for the hepatitis C
:26:33. > :26:36.epidemic for over a year. It is highly contagious
:26:37. > :26:42.and can cause cirrhosis Previously, treatment
:26:43. > :26:47.was very toxic. Now there are new drugs which cure,
:26:48. > :26:53.with virtually no side effects. I live in Germany, where
:26:54. > :26:55.I was prescribed treatment I have come back to the UK to find
:26:56. > :27:04.out why people here are not I'm starting with Dr Andrew Hill,
:27:05. > :27:15.an expert in drug pricing. If you look at the cost
:27:16. > :27:17.of these treatments, They cost ?100 per course
:27:18. > :27:23.to make, 12 weeks of treatment That same treatment is being sold
:27:24. > :27:31.in the United Kingdom for ?35,000. It is such a huge that
:27:32. > :27:34.the National Health Service and NICE have been hesitating
:27:35. > :27:37.to decide Dr Hill told me
:27:38. > :27:46.about the US Senate's investigation into pricing,
:27:47. > :27:49.which has focused on one particular Using Gilead's own documents,
:27:50. > :27:59.the evidence shows that the company pursued a calculated
:28:00. > :28:05.scheme for pricing and marketing its hepatitis C drug,
:28:06. > :28:09.based on one goal, maximising revenue regardless
:28:10. > :28:17.of the human consequences. How many billions do
:28:18. > :28:19.they need to make before These drugs are fundamentally cheap
:28:20. > :28:24.but they are not being accessed by most people because
:28:25. > :28:29.the prices are so high. One of the reasons why there's
:28:30. > :28:32.so little protest about the high price of hepatitis C treatment
:28:33. > :28:34.is that patients I went back to see my old doctor
:28:35. > :28:41.to ask him about this stigma. Being silent about hepatitis C
:28:42. > :28:46.is doing no one any favours. I think there is
:28:47. > :28:49.incredible amount of stigma and I think that stigma
:28:50. > :28:53.probably comes from the days of hepatitis C being labelled
:28:54. > :28:57.as a disease of intravenous drug use, and of intravenous
:28:58. > :29:00.drug users, not being I went to see Dr Magdalena Harris,
:29:01. > :29:09.who is researching the experiences For them, a trip to the dentist is
:29:10. > :29:15.always complicated. The issue of the last appointment,
:29:16. > :29:18.I have been hearing it for the last ten years and conducting research
:29:19. > :29:22.into people who have hepatitis C. I am given the last appointment
:29:23. > :29:25.of the day by my dentist We need to de-stigmatise this
:29:26. > :29:32.and say this is an infection, it is no different from
:29:33. > :29:34.any other infection. It is an infection that people catch
:29:35. > :29:39.and needs to be treated. One person who has not
:29:40. > :29:42.been able to access NHS treatment Recently diagnosed, her appointments
:29:43. > :29:49.keep getting postponed. She isn't sure how she was infected
:29:50. > :29:52.with hepatitis C. What is she planning
:29:53. > :29:55.to do about treatment? I don't know what I
:29:56. > :29:59.should do, really. I suppose, I mean, I have been
:30:00. > :30:06.trying to sign up with trials, I know you can also get
:30:07. > :30:14.drugs from India cheaper. Zsuzsanna's life and health
:30:15. > :30:20.is being badly infected because she is not
:30:21. > :30:25.getting treatment. Ten years ago when I had breast
:30:26. > :30:28.cancer and stopped HRT, During the last ten years, I have
:30:29. > :30:39.gradually got worse. My mobility has been
:30:40. > :30:46.drastically reduced. Whereas before I could walk
:30:47. > :30:53.for hours, without getting tired, now I don't, I am not
:30:54. > :30:56.able to walk at all. Some people are taking treatment
:30:57. > :31:03.into their own hands, Buying drugs off the
:31:04. > :31:11.internet is a new thing. It is an emerging way
:31:12. > :31:15.of being treated. One issue is, do you know
:31:16. > :31:18.that the medicine you are Sean Reddin could not get
:31:19. > :31:26.treatment in Ireland. The Irish health service,
:31:27. > :31:29.like the NHS, Online, he found the
:31:30. > :31:34.Australian-based Through them, he bought clinically
:31:35. > :31:42.tested generic drugs. I became a member
:31:43. > :31:45.of the Buyers' Club. I had my appointment
:31:46. > :31:50.via Skype with Dr Freeman. I sent him all my documentation
:31:51. > :31:56.from my blood test results from Ireland, and he said,
:31:57. > :32:01.yes, it is possible, if I come over to Australia,
:32:02. > :32:06.he could give them to me. Sean paid about ?750
:32:07. > :32:11.for treatment that will cost And have now completed 12 weeks
:32:12. > :32:19.of treatment last Monday. I am now waiting for my end
:32:20. > :32:30.of treatment results as we speak. My GP Dr Johnny Fleetwood
:32:31. > :32:34.of Dublin is on the phone. He has the result of my end
:32:35. > :32:40.of treatment tests and so, A little bit apprehensive and
:32:41. > :32:48.nervous but excited Excellent, Johnny,
:32:49. > :32:57.that is brilliant news! I have lived with
:32:58. > :33:08.hepatitis since 1980. In the UK, it is legal to get
:33:09. > :33:19.three months' treatment delivered to your door,
:33:20. > :33:22.so for those patients who can pay for it, the online buyers'
:33:23. > :33:24.club may be an option, but most will have to wait and see
:33:25. > :33:28.if the NHS can afford to treat them. This is billions of pounds
:33:29. > :33:31.of funding at a time when the NHS is in a very difficult
:33:32. > :33:35.financial situation. So it just does not
:33:36. > :33:38.seem feasible that we will be able to eliminate hepatitis
:33:39. > :33:43.C within the next 15 or 20 years, with prices this high, but we could,
:33:44. > :33:48.we definitely could if we could get We asked to speak to Gilead
:33:49. > :33:57.about the cost of their drugs but instead they sent us
:33:58. > :34:01.a statement: While we appreciate Senator Wyden's
:34:02. > :34:03.attention to this issue, we respectfully disagree with his
:34:04. > :34:23.conclusions. With me now is Dr Virginia Acha,
:34:24. > :34:26.Executive Director of the Association of the British
:34:27. > :34:39.Pharmaceutical Industry. Good evening. We know that the drug
:34:40. > :34:43.companies have to be recommended for the billions they spend on research.
:34:44. > :34:48.Is there any limit to the price they should be allowed to charge? We are
:34:49. > :34:54.focusing a lot on price. In that video I didn't hear anything about
:34:55. > :34:58.the value we are getting from the way these medicines are being
:34:59. > :35:04.introduced into health care. When NICE gives approval, it's not just
:35:05. > :35:09.because we think the treatment is great. It's because they have
:35:10. > :35:16.decided that it makes sense to give the British public this medication.
:35:17. > :35:23.No one will dispute that these are great drugs. Let's suppose it has
:35:24. > :35:31.?100,000 benefit. Is it reasonable for the drug company to charge
:35:32. > :35:36.?99,000? That is the benefit of the system we have in the UK. Let's be
:35:37. > :35:40.honest, the list price we have been hearing about isn't necessarily what
:35:41. > :35:44.the health care services will pay. There's some very effective and
:35:45. > :35:50.competitive discounts going on. Might we be paying less than the
:35:51. > :35:56.?35,000? I would almost guarantee that within the process that we
:35:57. > :36:02.access medication, the government does a very good job of making sure
:36:03. > :36:06.it is being a careful buyer when they are investing in new medicines.
:36:07. > :36:11.It's not just a case of one medicine. We have at least three
:36:12. > :36:16.hepatitis C products all competing for that very treatment area.
:36:17. > :36:22.Competition will be driving value, no doubt. We give Gilead monopoly on
:36:23. > :36:27.the one they've got, which is the one that has the best genotype use.
:36:28. > :36:32.We give them the monopoly through patents, which allows them to charge
:36:33. > :36:37.the high price. Would it be reasonable for society to say, if
:36:38. > :36:44.you are going to abuse it, we will shorten the patents? Patents are
:36:45. > :36:48.very important to protect investment in our NDA. A patents and allows you
:36:49. > :36:53.to disclose and protect your investment. Pricing should be a
:36:54. > :36:58.separate conversation. When we look at the value of any drug, and I
:36:59. > :37:02.wouldn't compare between the different hepatitis C products
:37:03. > :37:06.necessarily, but when you look at how they are going to negotiate
:37:07. > :37:10.their value, they will look not just at what it costs to bring them to
:37:11. > :37:15.market, but what it means for patients. It is sad that patients
:37:16. > :37:23.are having to work so hard to get a medication that is approved by NICE.
:37:24. > :37:28.If you had hepatitis C and the health care system said they would
:37:29. > :37:34.not buy you the drugs, would you go to a buyers' club? With my
:37:35. > :37:38.background, I used to work a lot in regular systems. I would be
:37:39. > :37:43.concerned working on a system that didn't go through the normal
:37:44. > :37:48.channels. Come on. You would take it, wouldn't you? I can see the ways
:37:49. > :37:53.that we can abuse people's trust on the Internet, so I would like to
:37:54. > :37:56.keep people in the safe, sound system of the NHS. Thank you.
:37:57. > :38:00.Atheism is not as modern a creed as you might think.
:38:01. > :38:03.A new book called Battling The Gods looks at disbelief in God
:38:04. > :38:05.in the ancient world and finds it is not the case
:38:06. > :38:09.That's perhaps contrary to the view that atheism is a feature
:38:10. > :38:12.The author is Tim Whitmarsh, Professor of Greek Culture
:38:13. > :38:15.and a Fellow of St John's College, University of Cambridge.
:38:16. > :38:27.Good evening. You are talking about the Romans and the Greeks, and
:38:28. > :38:32.atheism there. How did we miss the fact that there were a lot of
:38:33. > :38:36.disbelievers at the time? I'm not the first person to have noticed
:38:37. > :38:40.that there were disbelievers in antiquity. The book pulls together
:38:41. > :38:44.all of this material. Part of the reason why people have not
:38:45. > :38:49.historically focused on this thing is because we see the Greeks and
:38:50. > :38:54.Romans as pre-Christian, and define them as the antithesis of
:38:55. > :39:00.Christianity. The Greeks and the Romans had to be about outward
:39:01. > :39:05.ritual acts and so forth, and a lot of it was. But they did have this
:39:06. > :39:09.issue of belief in the gods. Essentially, at the time, they
:39:10. > :39:14.didn't know that the Earth revolved around the sun. They didn't know a
:39:15. > :39:20.lot. What were the grounds of people being atheistic? You can see why
:39:21. > :39:26.gods and their moods would have been explanations for quite a lot of
:39:27. > :39:30.things. It's very interesting. That argument that says there was a time
:39:31. > :39:35.when people were naive and silly and believed that the heavenly bodies
:39:36. > :39:39.were gods and so forth was in the past, and we moved beyond that, but
:39:40. > :39:44.the Greeks themselves did beyond that, on occasion. The idea that
:39:45. > :39:51.their original people lived in squalid disorder and so forth, and
:39:52. > :39:56.they miss perceived the patterns of the celestial bodies, and nowadays
:39:57. > :40:00.we don't believe that any more. It is exactly the same trait. You talk
:40:01. > :40:05.about those periods. But religion becomes more dogmatic and
:40:06. > :40:13.monotheistic. Atheism is perhaps a little harder in the monotheistic
:40:14. > :40:20.era. Yes. When Christianity comes in, you get a lot of legislation
:40:21. > :40:25.about the nature of belief. Christianity isn't hardest on
:40:26. > :40:30.atheists. It is hardest on Christians who don't believe in the
:40:31. > :40:36.correct way. A code drawn up in late Antiquity to try and dictate the
:40:37. > :40:44.kind of beliefs that were prof, it is the Christian heretics forget it
:40:45. > :40:47.worse. Your basic purpose is to say that your basic beings are
:40:48. > :40:52.instinctively religious until science comes along and says, hey
:40:53. > :40:59.guys, the earth goes around the sun and it isn't the gods, is wrong,
:41:00. > :41:04.basically. I think it... It is a hunch, I cannot prove it, but it is
:41:05. > :41:08.a hunch that in all cultures at all times, there were people who
:41:09. > :41:14.disbelieved in the gods. You do not need a science and secularism to
:41:15. > :41:17.understand it. The other thing is that the new atheists - there is
:41:18. > :41:27.something in the book to annoy everyone - the new atheists didn't
:41:28. > :41:32.believe either. Richard Hawkins and that lot, the new atheists, ten to
:41:33. > :41:39.talk about the invention of atheism as though it were solely a product
:41:40. > :41:43.of science. But in the past, a lot of people became atheists, in the
:41:44. > :41:49.18th-century, for example, by reading the classics. Good luck with
:41:50. > :41:53.the book. Thank you very much. Just time to congratulate our very
:41:54. > :41:57.own Chris Cook, who tonight shared the RTS scoop of the year award
:41:58. > :42:00.with Buzzfeed