:00:07. > :00:08.After months of preening and posturing, the official arguing
:00:09. > :00:11.The Prime Minister arrives in Brussels,
:00:12. > :00:14.armed with an appropriately strident metaphor.
:00:15. > :00:19.If we can get a good deal, I'll take that
:00:20. > :00:24.But I will not take a deal that does not meet what we need.
:00:25. > :00:27.We'll ask the Ukip leader how he'd battle for Britain.
:00:28. > :00:30.And Lord Mandelson knows who's side he's on.
:00:31. > :00:33.I do want him to stick out for a good deal.
:00:34. > :00:37.Because if he comes back with some pup, he won't be able to sell it
:00:38. > :00:39.and that will pull the rug out from underneath the referendum
:00:40. > :00:43.So he's right, I'm afraid, to go for the detail.
:00:44. > :00:49.David Grossman's our man on the lookout in Brussels.
:00:50. > :00:56.The merest whiff of a deal is in the air, not least
:00:57. > :00:57.because Europe is desperate to start talking about
:00:58. > :01:12.Are in Germany, they want a deal as where European power really lies.
:01:13. > :01:14.Are in Germany, they want a deal as soon as possible, so they can push
:01:15. > :01:17.on to discuss the refugee crisis. And not only are we in Britain,
:01:18. > :01:19.Brussels, and Berlin, They try to do their best
:01:20. > :01:39.to be good citizens. It is a rule of negotiations that
:01:40. > :01:45.you don't know how they've gone, until they're over, when you find
:01:46. > :01:48.out who was bluffing These decisive European Council
:01:49. > :01:51.talks in Brussels fall It's hard to read
:01:52. > :01:54.them mid-way through. But that's not going
:01:55. > :01:56.to stop us trying. Our political editor
:01:57. > :02:05.David Grossman is in Brussels. David, I take it the odds are
:02:06. > :02:13.against us and the situation is grim? Exactly. The latest briefing
:02:14. > :02:17.we got from Downing Street was that there was little or no progress at
:02:18. > :02:22.the first working session. In truth we did not expect there to be much
:02:23. > :02:27.progress. The first working session is when you identify the elephants
:02:28. > :02:33.in the room, make them explicit. It is later that you try to reduce them
:02:34. > :02:39.to a manageable side. The bilaterals will start in the next half hour and
:02:40. > :02:44.during that time the legal minds of the EU will try to work out how to
:02:45. > :02:48.give Britain the exemptions and status in the EU without dismantling
:02:49. > :02:53.the treaties. That progress probably will happen tonight, tomorrow
:02:54. > :02:57.morning. One new development that is interesting is the Belgians,
:02:58. > :03:02.supported by the French, asked for explicit wording in the final
:03:03. > :03:06.declaration that says it is a one-time deal for Britain. That
:03:07. > :03:10.means there is no coming back after voting to come out of the EU in a
:03:11. > :03:16.referendum and saying we want to go out a better deal. We put that to
:03:17. > :03:22.number 10 earlier. They said they had not seen that version of a text
:03:23. > :03:25.but would look at it with interest. You get the feeling they don't want
:03:26. > :03:30.the idea to permeate around Britain you can vote to come out and really
:03:31. > :03:33.stay in, because of negotiations at a later date. We shall see what
:03:34. > :03:38.happens. In terms of the timetable, when do
:03:39. > :03:44.you think we will hear what the outcome is?
:03:45. > :03:47.Definitely not tonight. In half an hour we expect to hear perhaps from
:03:48. > :03:53.Donald Tusk, the EU Council president who might give an idea how
:03:54. > :03:58.the bilaterals will phase out during the back. Tomorrow there was an ATM
:03:59. > :04:04.session which has been moved to 11am to allow them more time. -- ATM
:04:05. > :04:07.session. This is the top of the mountain of diplomacy that David
:04:08. > :04:15.Cameron has constructed since the general election.
:04:16. > :04:25.No one can say that David Cameron has not put in the miles looking for
:04:26. > :04:30.a deal. The final few yards towards the summit along the Brussels red
:04:31. > :04:35.carpet this afternoon. We have important work to do today and
:04:36. > :04:39.tomorrow. It will be hard. I will be battling for Britain. If we can get
:04:40. > :04:43.a good deal I will take that deal but I will not take a deal but does
:04:44. > :04:48.not meet what we need. It is more important to get this right than do
:04:49. > :04:56.anything in a rush but with goodwill and hard work we can get a better
:04:57. > :05:01.deal for Britain. Mr Cameron knows the other EU
:05:02. > :05:05.leaders are just as anxious as he to reach a deal. They want the EU to
:05:06. > :05:15.start talking about something else other than Britain. The leader of
:05:16. > :05:20.one of the big groupings in the parliament is saying. We do not want
:05:21. > :05:28.to take part in further political integration of the union. I think we
:05:29. > :05:33.have to recognise that. Let's put that special status in the treaties.
:05:34. > :05:41.And so give that special status to Britain. We cannot continue the
:05:42. > :05:44.fight. There is plenty of concern in Brussels of what they call
:05:45. > :05:49.contagion. Other countries demanding the same concessions Britain is
:05:50. > :05:55.seeking. We struggled for many years in the European Union to have the
:05:56. > :05:58.same treatment for citizens, to have the same rights for each citizen and
:05:59. > :06:06.same access to the single market for each citizen. When we start making
:06:07. > :06:10.differences, it can go further. Those principles should not be
:06:11. > :06:20.watered down. I regret the EU is being watered down. This is not the
:06:21. > :06:24.benefit of the Brits. At the centre of one of the European Parliament's
:06:25. > :06:29.buildings is a noisy metal sculpture. Move one part and a
:06:30. > :06:32.distant arm two floors up knocks against the Labour. A structure that
:06:33. > :06:37.should work in harmony but a lot of work to do. This is a Flemish MEP
:06:38. > :06:41.who wants the British deal to reverberate around the continent.
:06:42. > :06:44.There is discussion on the contagious effects of the deal and
:06:45. > :06:52.everyone saying it should be specific for Great Britain. We need
:06:53. > :06:58.to have the same debate and advantages for all member states so
:06:59. > :06:59.what Britain can do on social benefits, migration,
:07:00. > :07:05.competitiveness, we need to be able to do that because if they decided
:07:06. > :07:11.to leave we will need these exchanges. While David Cameron was
:07:12. > :07:17.with EU leaders, look who we spotted at the European Parliament. Jeremy
:07:18. > :07:21.Corbyn in Brussels for a meeting of European Socialists. I think the
:07:22. > :07:26.reforms David Cameron and I want are rather different. I want improved
:07:27. > :07:30.protection for working conditions, I want to see continuing right of
:07:31. > :07:36.movement across Europe for people and I am concerned about secretive
:07:37. > :07:40.negotiations of the transatlantic and trade partnership which David
:07:41. > :07:43.Cameron supports. I don't support secretive negotiations, I think we
:07:44. > :07:48.want something different. Are you looking forward to a long night,
:07:49. > :07:54.asked David Cameron, as he sits with Donald Tusk. It is Donald Tusk's job
:07:55. > :07:59.to steer the heads of government towards a deal. The crucial
:08:00. > :08:04.ingredient that exists in Brussels is common purpose. Everyone wants to
:08:05. > :08:09.reach consensus. Tonight the objection still stand from Eastern
:08:10. > :08:13.Europe over benefits. And France over Britain's influence over the
:08:14. > :08:17.eurogroup's reforms Belgium over abandoning the phrase ever closer
:08:18. > :08:23.union. Even so, chances are that come tomorrow David Cameron will
:08:24. > :08:26.return to the UK with a deal to recommend to the country. David
:08:27. > :08:27.Grossman with the hand of history almost on his shoulder.
:08:28. > :08:30.Earlier I spoke to Lord Mandelson - Peter Mandelson - the former Labour
:08:31. > :08:32.Cabinet minister, a relatively successful election campaigner
:08:33. > :08:33.and a one-time European Commissioner.
:08:34. > :08:38.He is now on the board of Britain Stronger in Europe.
:08:39. > :08:46.I asked him if the critics are right to say David Cameron has been
:08:47. > :08:51.unambitious in his renegotiation. I am not sure he has been unambitious.
:08:52. > :08:54.In fact he has got further than I expected him to do. If I had any
:08:55. > :09:00.criticism of Cameron it would be this. The sort of engagement and
:09:01. > :09:08.relationships he has built during this negotiation would have been
:09:09. > :09:14.much better if he had started the process along time ago. In a sense
:09:15. > :09:22.he is trying to achieve too much in too short a time. I think that the
:09:23. > :09:26.deal he will get, if it is anything like that originally outlined, will
:09:27. > :09:32.be relevant, it will be useful, and I think it will be able to be sold.
:09:33. > :09:36.I think it is a quintessentially British thing, saying we are in
:09:37. > :09:40.Europe, but we do not want to go further into Europe will stop we
:09:41. > :09:47.believe in the economic partnership we have that gives us advantages,
:09:48. > :09:54.these benefits, but we do not want to be signing up to some one-way
:09:55. > :09:57.train heading towards a federal Europe. Shall I tell you why? I
:09:58. > :10:02.think the rest of Europe does not want to go on that train either. I
:10:03. > :10:05.wonder if one of the problems your side of the argument is the
:10:06. > :10:13.perception that this is a bracket that has been imposed on
:10:14. > :10:17.populations, by an elite, of whom frankly you are. If there is an
:10:18. > :10:23.element of truth in what he was saying, basically, people will be
:10:24. > :10:30.offered a choice between people like us and a bunch of nationalistic
:10:31. > :10:36.fanatics on the other side. We have to draw back from the labels and
:10:37. > :10:40.name calling and instead have a serious and informed factually
:10:41. > :10:44.-based debate about Europe of the sort we have not seen in Britain in
:10:45. > :10:50.my adult life. We know emotion will play a part, it will not just be
:10:51. > :10:56.about the facts of trade, it will be about gut feeling. Emma Thompson was
:10:57. > :11:03.in Berlin. She is a supporter of staying in. She described Britain as
:11:04. > :11:12.a tiny cloud bolted, rainy corner, a cake filled, Ms relayed in grey old
:11:13. > :11:18.island. Which I say she is entitled to her opinion. I do not happen to
:11:19. > :11:23.agree with it! Is there a sense, called luvvies, new Labour, people
:11:24. > :11:27.who do not quite gets... You are very free with your labels delight.
:11:28. > :11:33.Luvvies and new Labour. Sweeping generalisations! I am trying to
:11:34. > :11:39.provoke you into answering the idea this is a big problem for the Remain
:11:40. > :11:46.campaign. What people are worried about in Britain are the basics of
:11:47. > :11:52.day-to-day lives. They want secure, well-paid jobs. They want
:11:53. > :12:00.well-financed, properly run public services. These are the things who
:12:01. > :12:03.concern people voting in this referendum. If Emma Thompson wants
:12:04. > :12:10.to make it about whether you are pro, anti-jam filled sponge cakes,
:12:11. > :12:15.that is up to her! She and everyone else has a lot to contribute to the
:12:16. > :12:20.debate and let it commence. Let's talk about the Remain campaign, what
:12:21. > :12:25.should the pitch be? There has been talk about Project Fear, the idea
:12:26. > :12:30.you try to scare the country. Are you a project via person? I am a
:12:31. > :12:37.Project HOPE person will stop a project ambition person. Those who
:12:38. > :12:41.advocate we leave the European Union, in my opinion, are saying we
:12:42. > :12:48.should take a huge leap into the unknown. They think it is worth the
:12:49. > :12:52.risk. Nigel Farage said to me, we will pay a price. He like others who
:12:53. > :13:01.support him have said jobs will be at risk. Yes, investment might be
:13:02. > :13:04.affected. They say it is worth taking this economic risk, worth
:13:05. > :13:09.putting jobs in jeopardy in this way, because we will have more
:13:10. > :13:14.control over our country. It may be a smaller, weaker country, maybe
:13:15. > :13:19.less prosperous, but at least we would have control. I think that is
:13:20. > :13:26.a fantasy. I would rather have a strong, large, prosperous, safe
:13:27. > :13:29.country, where in certain circumstances and areas, in policies
:13:30. > :13:34.and government activity, we work with other countries in order to
:13:35. > :13:40.make ourselves more prosperous and safer. That is an important
:13:41. > :13:46.principle. The person who enunciated that first in 1975, was Margaret
:13:47. > :13:52.Thatcher. How important is it the personalities in your camp, and I am
:13:53. > :14:00.thinking of one personality, Boris Johnson,? I think he is fun. He
:14:01. > :14:03.would be such enjoyable company to have in a campaign. Whether he would
:14:04. > :14:10.determine its outcome is a different matter. Labour's position, you are
:14:11. > :14:11.comfortable where labour is? He has not been prominent, Jeremy Corbyn,
:14:12. > :14:13.in the campaign? I think, actually, in the statement
:14:14. > :14:16.he made today, he was making quite He was basically saying Labour
:14:17. > :14:19.is absolutely for Britain staying Then he had a lot of potshots
:14:20. > :14:24.at the Prime Minister - But then he dismissed out
:14:25. > :14:28.of hand what the Prime Minister Now, I happen to believe that people
:14:29. > :14:36.in this country don't want to pull They don't like this
:14:37. > :14:55.sense that people can come here and take
:14:56. > :14:57.us for a ride. In other member states,
:14:58. > :15:00.they have a contributory system I've seen and discussed it
:15:01. > :15:04.in a different context. So that people are
:15:05. > :15:05.working and paying taxes and putting in before
:15:06. > :15:08.they have the right to take out. I think what David Cameron is doing
:15:09. > :15:11.in establishing that principle here and saying there is not
:15:12. > :15:14.an immediate unconditional right to access to our
:15:15. > :15:17.welfare system from the word go, I think that is what people
:15:18. > :15:21.would regard as fair, and therefore I
:15:22. > :15:24.think it is a completely legitimate part of the negotiation
:15:25. > :15:28.he is undertaking in Brussels. And I think
:15:29. > :15:31.if Jeremy Corbyn does not understand that,
:15:32. > :15:50.he is not really on the same What is interesting listening to you
:15:51. > :15:52.is that it seems as though there is, let's call it a soggy centre in
:15:53. > :16:06.British politics. Some would say, Peter Mandelson
:16:07. > :16:13.sounds like a Tory, for example. But you are closer to Cameron, aren't
:16:14. > :16:17.you? You are closer to Osborne...? What I want is for Britain to remain
:16:18. > :16:21.in the European Union because it is important for our prosperity and
:16:22. > :16:25.safety. We have more power as a country in the rest of the world by
:16:26. > :16:29.being in the European Union than we would have outside. Therefore I
:16:30. > :16:32.think that what Cameron is negotiating in Brussels is
:16:33. > :16:36.important. I don't think it is irrelevant. And yes, actually I do
:16:37. > :16:42.want him to stick out for a good deal. If he comes back with
:16:43. > :16:46.something less, he will not be able to sell it, which will pull the rug
:16:47. > :16:52.from underneath the referendum campaign. Soldiers right to go to
:16:53. > :16:57.the wire. Suppose we remain in, is that the end of the matter, do you
:16:58. > :17:01.think? I think it is the end of the matter for Britain in Europe, yes.
:17:02. > :17:05.But for reform in Europe? And on and it should not be. This needs to be
:17:06. > :17:11.the beginning of a process, a platform for changing Europe in the
:17:12. > :17:15.future. Because and really do believe that the European Union
:17:16. > :17:20.needs to build bridges. It needs to build bridges between those in the
:17:21. > :17:31.euro and those outside. But also, it needs to build some bridges between
:17:32. > :17:34.itself and its citizens. You heard Lord Mandelson referring to Nigel
:17:35. > :17:39.Farage. Why don't we talk to him now?! Good evening to you! I want to
:17:40. > :17:43.start by just clarifying the point he made about you, which is, he said
:17:44. > :17:48.you had told him that you would sacrifice a few jobs and some
:17:49. > :17:54.prosperity in order to get more control over our destiny - is that
:17:55. > :17:58.right? I will say, what a marvellous interview, Evan, to hear Lord
:17:59. > :18:03.Mandelson at his fraudulent best was wonderful entertainment, and I'm
:18:04. > :18:08.sure the viewers enjoyed it. Quite why he thinks he can speak for me, I
:18:09. > :18:11.have no idea. He is right in one sense, that some people would lose
:18:12. > :18:17.their job. Our 73 MPs would lose their jobs. Our European Commission,
:18:18. > :18:22.and by the way, viewers, his name is Lord Hill. You cannot vote for him,
:18:23. > :18:26.he would lose his job. And I have no doubt that highly paid bureaucrats
:18:27. > :18:29.in the European Commission would lose their jobs. Beyond that,
:18:30. > :18:34.absolutely nobody would lose their jobs. Because we will go on buying
:18:35. > :18:38.motorcars and goods and services with the European market place, but
:18:39. > :18:42.crucially we would be free to make with the European market place, but
:18:43. > :18:46.our own trade deals with the rest of the world. Lord Mandelson, nice try,
:18:47. > :18:51.but I am sorry, old son, you do not speak for me. You have given it back
:18:52. > :18:56.to him with both barrels. You have basically said it is all a bit of a
:18:57. > :19:00.Sharad, it is nothing. And yet a lot of people ask Arena round taking it
:19:01. > :19:07.extremely seriously, because they think this hard renegotiation is
:19:08. > :19:12.hard work - is it your contention that it is all just one enormous
:19:13. > :19:17.act, or do you concede that they are doing some serious talking? I am
:19:18. > :19:22.sorry, you cannot put words into my mouth, either. I have never called
:19:23. > :19:26.this a conspiracy. Do not try to frame what I'm going to say in those
:19:27. > :19:30.terms. When, three years ago, the Prime Minister in his room Burke
:19:31. > :19:35.speech spoke about a referendum if he became Prime Minister, he talked
:19:36. > :19:40.about fundamental change. He spoke about treaty change, he talked about
:19:41. > :19:42.power is coming back to Britain, he talked about a negotiation over
:19:43. > :19:47.whether we could control our borders. He even talked laughably
:19:48. > :19:52.about reforming the European Union itself. None of that has happened.
:19:53. > :19:56.What has happened here tonight, and yes, you're right, it is being taken
:19:57. > :20:00.seriously, but what has happened is that we have got the British Prime
:20:01. > :20:04.Minister, rather like Oliver twist, coming along with his begging bowl
:20:05. > :20:11.and saying, please, sir, can we have some more concessions? Can we extend
:20:12. > :20:14.the reduction in migrant benefits perhaps to ten years or beyond?
:20:15. > :20:21.There are some countries, led by the Czech Republic, saying, we do not
:20:22. > :20:24.want this. My belief is this. Firstly, there is no fundamental
:20:25. > :20:28.debate going on tonight about Britain's relationship with the
:20:29. > :20:32.European Union, only about a tiny aspect of it. And secondly, I think
:20:33. > :20:36.most of what you are seeing here is theatre. It is the from Mr Cameron.
:20:37. > :20:40.It is theatre from the other leaders. And they will be in
:20:41. > :20:45.agreement mid-morning tomorrow. One thing doing the rounds tonight,
:20:46. > :20:51.which is pretty interesting is the idea that there will not be a second
:20:52. > :20:56.referendum. This negotiation is it. You presumably would like that,
:20:57. > :20:59.because you think this should be it, you will accept the referendum
:21:00. > :21:06.result, whatever it is, and that will be final, we cannot keep coming
:21:07. > :21:10.back year after year? Well, as a veteran of this place, I have seen
:21:11. > :21:14.two Irish referendums, whether people have rejected European
:21:15. > :21:17.treaties and they have been and bullied in second referendums, where
:21:18. > :21:23.one side out spent the other massively, into subjugating second
:21:24. > :21:28.time around. We saw it in the 1990s with Denmark. The idea which has
:21:29. > :21:31.been put about by voter leave and others, that may be a second
:21:32. > :21:35.referendum is a clever way of selling this wreckage to the British
:21:36. > :21:41.people, I do not agree with that. We have got to motivate people to get
:21:42. > :21:44.up off their armchairs and get down to the polling station, even if they
:21:45. > :21:49.have never voted in their lives before. I'm going to say a big, big
:21:50. > :21:54.thank you tonight to the French and the Belgians for putting into this
:21:55. > :21:57.final communique that this is it, this is our once-in-a-lifetime
:21:58. > :22:04.opportunity to get back control of our country, and I absolutely
:22:05. > :22:08.welcome that. You mentioned Vote Leave,, which is the other campaign.
:22:09. > :22:13.One feature of what has been happening so far is that you guys on
:22:14. > :22:17.your side of the Argent have been arguing with each other as much as
:22:18. > :22:20.with the other side. Are you going to be at this meeting on Tuesday
:22:21. > :22:24.when you all bash your heads together? I have tried four or five
:22:25. > :22:33.times to meet with them, it is impossible. I am not convinced they
:22:34. > :22:37.even want to leave. What has happened here is very simple. There
:22:38. > :22:48.has been a pitched battle going on between Vote Leave and leave.dot.eu,
:22:49. > :22:52.and this is why the other group has come together. We will be having a
:22:53. > :22:56.big meeting tomorrow night in Westminster. On that platform, we
:22:57. > :23:01.will have people from the right, left and centre of British politics.
:23:02. > :23:05.Go has broken the deadlock. Go has now applied for the designation. And
:23:06. > :23:07.we welcome the support of leave.dot.eu and if they can bring
:23:08. > :23:11.themselves to do it, Vote Leave as well. Nigel Farage, thanks very much
:23:12. > :23:15.indeed. Love it or hate it, it has seemed
:23:16. > :23:21.like we are on a one-way road towards greater
:23:22. > :23:24.integration and unity. Then came the Greek crisis,
:23:25. > :23:28.incessant bickering between other EU members,
:23:29. > :23:31.and now, potential Brexit. And suddenly, it seems
:23:32. > :23:33.Europe might turn round, and drive away from
:23:34. > :23:36.unity, not towards it. Nowhere is this causing more
:23:37. > :23:40.nervousness than Germany. Mark Urban is in Berlin today
:23:41. > :23:46.to look at the fears there. Out of the German wartime
:23:47. > :23:48.cauldron came the impetus For the war generation,
:23:49. > :23:57.the purpose of the European It stood as the polar
:23:58. > :24:04.opposite to the horror of war and for
:24:05. > :24:07.the construction of peace, literally, through the ever closer
:24:08. > :24:11.union of Europe's peoples. But there are now senior
:24:12. > :24:15.figures here who wonder whether all of that is
:24:16. > :24:18.being called into doubt. For those at the top of politics
:24:19. > :24:23.here, it is the migrant crisis that has created a real
:24:24. > :24:25.threat to the entire I consider this crisis to be
:24:26. > :24:30.of an existentialist I would say every part
:24:31. > :24:37.has to be ready for I see a dramatic lack
:24:38. > :24:48.of the willingness to compromise on this issue, and we can probably
:24:49. > :24:55.experience a fundamental existential crisis to the cohesion
:24:56. > :24:58.of the European Union. Some believe that at least
:24:59. > :25:04.the challenge of British renegotiation has caused Germany
:25:05. > :25:06.and the EU to debate Europe's Ever closer union,
:25:07. > :25:13.it is the founding lie They honestly believe,
:25:14. > :25:19.the elite believed, a lot of people believed, that somehow Europe
:25:20. > :25:23.would develop into a superstate. It has been the position
:25:24. > :25:26.of Britain all along - Tony Blair said it,
:25:27. > :25:29.superpower not a superstate, and now Cameron has
:25:30. > :25:31.got it in writing, that
:25:32. > :25:33.this is not going to happen. It has not sunk home
:25:34. > :25:38.for the Germans yet. The current generation of leaders
:25:39. > :25:44.here has been shaped by the collapse of communism and welcoming
:25:45. > :25:47.Eastern Europe back into the family. after the fall of the Wall
:25:48. > :25:51.and the reunification of Germany in Europe, people saw
:25:52. > :25:55.that as a triumph to be proud of, but now the migration
:25:56. > :26:11.crisis has opened up fissures, We have a new situation where we
:26:12. > :26:15.have to defend our values, where we have to talk about values again.
:26:16. > :26:21.What are our values? And we have more and more the emergence of a rev
:26:22. > :26:26.counter model to Western liberal democracies, within Europe. Coming
:26:27. > :26:35.from Hungary, perhaps now from Poland. And everywhere you look, it
:26:36. > :26:40.is about the West, the Europeans, have to redefine their identity with
:26:41. > :26:47.regard to the challenges from outside and from inside.
:26:48. > :26:49.Berlin is currently playing host to its film festival.
:26:50. > :26:53.In the capital of Europe's most populous country and powerhouse
:26:54. > :26:57.economy, they are trying to set the tone in culture
:26:58. > :27:04.The EU's multiple crises - the euro, Brexit and migration -
:27:05. > :27:07.have brought about another change here.
:27:08. > :27:10.And that is a sober realisation of Germany's
:27:11. > :27:13.responsibility of leadership in Europe.
:27:14. > :27:17.And that won't change, regardless of how those individual
:27:18. > :27:34.As the Germans look at us negotiating a few concessions, and
:27:35. > :27:39.things we want, is there anything they find attractive in that
:27:40. > :27:45.package, perhaps child benefit or anything, something attractive which
:27:46. > :27:49.perhaps they would like to have? Well, don't forget, Evan, as David
:27:50. > :27:53.Cameron goes into battle tonight, to a great extent, the Germans have
:27:54. > :27:58.tuned up his offer, or his proposal, if you like, and done so over
:27:59. > :28:02.several months. There are bits of it, on the competitiveness agenda,
:28:03. > :28:07.completing the single market, that the Germans love. There are bits of
:28:08. > :28:10.it which they are agnostic about - the commitment to the ever closer
:28:11. > :28:14.union point, or getting that out of the way for Britain. And then there
:28:15. > :28:18.is this issue of freedom of movement, which they tried
:28:19. > :28:23.initially, well, they succeeded I think in convincing David Cameron to
:28:24. > :28:27.step back from going too far on that, from comp rising on what they
:28:28. > :28:31.see as fundamental principles, and they have now got him on the benefit
:28:32. > :28:35.cap area, which as you suggest, I think there are some people in
:28:36. > :28:39.Germany who can see that there would be Exchequer benefits for Germany as
:28:40. > :28:42.well, if that goes through. On the other side, is there much sign of
:28:43. > :28:47.German fatigue with the Brits requiring that the whole union sit
:28:48. > :28:54.down and talk about our needs rather than all the other things going on?
:28:55. > :28:59.Look, they want to keep Britain in, they want a deal. But one senior
:29:00. > :29:04.politician said to me today, all of this for such a small matters. They
:29:05. > :29:07.think David Cameron is taking a big risk in terms of possibly taking
:29:08. > :29:10.Britain out of the EU on these issues, which they do not think,
:29:11. > :29:13.Britain out of the EU on these many of them, are actually worth
:29:14. > :29:18.that sort of gamble. I think there is also a sense here that at the
:29:19. > :29:26.moment, when the crisis over refugees poses such a threat, what
:29:27. > :29:31.many people in Angela Merkel's party see as an excess tension threat to
:29:32. > :29:34.the EU, that so much time should be devoted to this, and that Chancellor
:29:35. > :29:38.Merkel should be in some sense weakened or held back by her
:29:39. > :29:41.advocacy of Britain on that point. They would rather focus on that
:29:42. > :29:43.issue and push on to try to get some sort of agreement on the refugee
:29:44. > :29:48.question. Thank you very much. We've talked a lot in recent weeks
:29:49. > :29:50.about the "emergency brake" on migrant benefits, and migrants
:29:51. > :29:53.coming from Poland and elsewhere. It is one of the key sticking points
:29:54. > :29:56.of the deal being negotiated over You have heard politicians,
:29:57. > :30:16.you have heard experts pontificate We've talked a lot in recent weeks
:30:17. > :30:18.about the "emergency brake" on migrant benefits, and migrants
:30:19. > :30:21.coming from Poland and elsewhere. It is one of the key sticking points
:30:22. > :30:24.of the deal being negotiated over You have heard politicians,
:30:25. > :30:27.you have heard experts pontificate But we have found a better place
:30:28. > :30:32.to get the lowdown on this - the 11am bus to London,
:30:33. > :30:35.departing from Krakow in Poland. Yesterday, our producer
:30:36. > :30:37.Maria Polachowska caught that bus and she arrived an hour late,
:30:38. > :30:40.at 1230 today, with a disk full I have been working
:30:41. > :30:44.here for over ten years. Most people appreciate
:30:45. > :30:49.the UK because they can If you work in Poland,
:30:50. > :30:55.the minimum wage is like And you can't pay your bills,
:30:56. > :31:05.you can't rent a flat. And then you go to England,
:31:06. > :31:11.you work the same, and you earn enough to earn a living,
:31:12. > :31:30.to have a normal life, all people who take advantage of the
:31:31. > :31:33.benefits, but it is only a little part.
:31:34. > :31:37.It is a bigger market in the UK, it is
:31:38. > :31:39.easier to sell invention or publish a book.
:31:40. > :31:42.What you would happen if Britain did choose to leave?
:31:43. > :31:44.How would that affect Poles working in the UK?
:31:45. > :31:47.Most people would come back or go to other countries,
:31:48. > :33:09.Do you agree with David Cameron that there should be a four-year gap
:33:10. > :33:24.before you are allowed to get benefit?
:33:25. > :33:26.Do you think people may look elsewhere and travel to other
:33:27. > :33:35.Many of those people have already come here.
:33:36. > :33:40.Many of the children were born in England.
:33:41. > :33:50.To look for a job, place to live anywhere else.
:33:51. > :33:55.I think coming back to Poland, there is no
:33:56. > :34:11.The bus arriving from Krakow at lunchtime today.
:34:12. > :34:13.Joining me now is Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins,
:34:14. > :34:15.from the Times, Lord Danny Finkelstein and from our Paris
:34:16. > :34:31.Let's look at the French newspaper front cover about Britain and
:34:32. > :34:36.Europe. It says go if you want to, it says would Brexit be such a
:34:37. > :34:40.dramatic development, anyway? Christine, is that the mood
:34:41. > :34:44.everybody has their, that we are causing trouble, we are weary of it
:34:45. > :34:57.and it is time to make up our minds? I think there is a kind of fatigue
:34:58. > :35:03.about Britishness of it all. Ever since Britain has joined the EU we
:35:04. > :35:10.have been used to London asking for specific treatment, conditions and
:35:11. > :35:16.so on. The kind of trap which your Prime Minister seems to have put
:35:17. > :35:21.himself into, for probably valid domestic reasons, as far as British
:35:22. > :35:25.politics are concerned, it gets to be a little bit tiresome on the
:35:26. > :35:30.continent. Of course, all of our countries have their own problems
:35:31. > :35:38.will stop as indeed your Berlin correspondent stressed, and the
:35:39. > :35:46.discrepancy between the time spent on the wording, phrasing, what's
:35:47. > :35:52.David Cameron might or might not get from this long Brussels night and
:35:53. > :35:56.probably again tomorrow. And the real issue which we Europeans have
:35:57. > :36:00.two face and when I say we Europeans, I include my British
:36:01. > :36:04.friends stop I think there is something wrong there. We have this
:36:05. > :36:11.huge migrant crisis. We have problems with jobs, the environment.
:36:12. > :36:20.We have the war in Syria. You do not need to spell out all of the... I
:36:21. > :36:23.think we understand the point. It is irritating to be told we have spent
:36:24. > :36:28.a lot of time discussing Britain's problems as if we have not spent a
:36:29. > :36:32.lot of time discussing France's problems and as if we have not had
:36:33. > :36:39.referendums in France that require a response. Britain has concerns about
:36:40. > :36:43.the EU. People want a single market, not a politically developed a
:36:44. > :36:48.European Union, which is why we opted out of the euro, the Schengen
:36:49. > :36:53.agreement, and now out of closer union we will try to opt out of. It
:36:54. > :36:59.is not as if our special relationship with the EU is any
:37:00. > :37:05.different. It is irritating to be told it is a waste of time to deal
:37:06. > :37:12.with one of the world's biggest economies. It depends how you view
:37:13. > :37:17.Europe. If you see it as part of a political hole, we are a pain in the
:37:18. > :37:20.neck. We do not see Europe that way in this country. The relationship
:37:21. > :37:24.between Britain and the European countries has broken down, which is
:37:25. > :37:29.what this has been about otherwise he would not be in Brussels. We were
:37:30. > :37:35.promised a new job retreat, new relationship with Europe, as a
:37:36. > :37:40.trading partner, it is not delivered. It seems to me he has got
:37:41. > :37:45.to walk away. He cannot vote yes to this package. If he votes yes
:37:46. > :37:50.everything goes on as before if he votes no, it gets interesting. There
:37:51. > :37:54.has been argument in Britain about whether we wanted to join a
:37:55. > :37:58.superstate and since that argument we have the referendum act, we have
:37:59. > :38:03.opted out of the euro and Schengen and now we have negotiations that
:38:04. > :38:09.come on top of enlargement and other problems inside the EU, that what we
:38:10. > :38:13.feared would happen ten years ago, that Europe would develop into a
:38:14. > :38:17.single country and we would have to be part of it or leave that is not
:38:18. > :38:26.now the choice. So I do not agree with Simon. If you vote yes, nothing
:38:27. > :38:29.changes. I do not think it will make much difference if you vote yes or
:38:30. > :38:38.no, we would have an associate relationship. Christine, is there a
:38:39. > :38:43.feeling there that this at least might resolve it? Simon Jenkins said
:38:44. > :38:47.if we vote to stay in we will carry on with the dysfunctional
:38:48. > :38:52.relationship as we have the last 40 years. David Cameron has said if we
:38:53. > :38:58.can resolve this once and for all, all of Europe should be much
:38:59. > :39:06.happier. Yes, but it seems to many of us on the continent that when it
:39:07. > :39:12.is expressed that way, it means there has to be a British set of
:39:13. > :39:20.rules and the rest of us, and we just have to deal with that. That
:39:21. > :39:24.idea of a special partnership, which would do what, protect British
:39:25. > :39:30.interests and not other European interests? It is hard to take, it
:39:31. > :39:35.does not make much sense. If the British people want to get out of
:39:36. > :39:41.Europe, we will see what happens. I think it is quite unfair to say, but
:39:42. > :39:46.in any case, it would really improve things so much more by having that
:39:47. > :39:56.sort of special deals that we would of course be very specific about and
:39:57. > :39:59.not you. You formed a single currency so you have a different
:40:00. > :40:03.relationship because you formed a fiscal union which requires a
:40:04. > :40:10.political union. Printed not want a single currency and that was within
:40:11. > :40:16.the deal we did. Nobody asked you to be in the single currency, you opted
:40:17. > :40:20.out. And nobody asked you to let us opt out. We were able to opt out and
:40:21. > :40:27.we did. Simon you wrote an interesting piece today essentially
:40:28. > :40:32.arguing we should vote no because that would give a kick at the bottom
:40:33. > :40:37.to the relationship and it would be properly re-establish. Tonight, what
:40:38. > :40:41.is interesting, everybody is saying, we cannot have another referendum
:40:42. > :40:46.after this, this has to be the once and only choice. Your piece was
:40:47. > :40:51.predicated on another referendum. I was simply saying that if you are in
:40:52. > :40:55.effect say, we want to alter the relationship between Britain and the
:40:56. > :40:59.other countries in a particular fashion, nobody is coming out of
:41:00. > :41:05.Europe. This is city tour. If we vote no, there would have to be an
:41:06. > :41:08.almighty renegotiation. The relationship would be different, it
:41:09. > :41:13.would be some sort of associate membership. I'm sure. The only
:41:14. > :41:18.question is what with the nature of it be? No government can preclude
:41:19. > :41:24.that, a future government might say we ought to have another referendum,
:41:25. > :41:29.that is all I am saying. No is not known to Europe, it is no to the
:41:30. > :41:34.present relationship. That is the idea that any relationship with
:41:35. > :41:39.Europe would be better. I do not accept that. We have a lot of parts
:41:40. > :41:42.of relationship that we want. A single market allows people to trade
:41:43. > :41:49.and reduces regulation to business. You would get that in the
:41:50. > :41:53.renegotiation. Not necessarily. The only guarantee is now that you get
:41:54. > :41:59.none of it. We are out of time. Thank you.
:42:00. > :42:04.By this time tomorrow, will we know? That is all we have time for. Have a
:42:05. > :42:06.very good night.