:00:00. > :00:00.As we come on air it's clear that the Prime Minister
:00:07. > :00:10.There is an EU deal, which David Cameron says gives
:00:11. > :00:12.the UK special status in the European Union.
:00:13. > :00:22.Now we will have a referendum, most likly on 23rd June.
:00:23. > :00:29.David Cameron's renegotiation in Brussels has taken far longer than
:00:30. > :00:34.anyone wanted, but a night we have a deal. Within the last hour, I have
:00:35. > :00:39.negotiated a deal to give the UK special status inside the European
:00:40. > :00:42.Union. I will fly back to London tonight and update the Cabinet at
:00:43. > :00:46.10am tomorrow. We'll be talking to politicians,
:00:47. > :00:49.players and hacks on the scene. With the starting gun primed
:00:50. > :00:51.for the referendum campaign, we are at a big rally for one
:00:52. > :01:07.of the groups that wants She did something that in our
:01:08. > :01:09.society is unspeakable. She kissed a black man.
:01:10. > :01:11.Is To Kill A Mockingbird a book for our times?
:01:12. > :01:23.We'll be talking to Lionel Shriver about the classic American novel.
:01:24. > :01:28.The President of the EU has confirmed there is unanimous
:01:29. > :01:30.support for an agreement between the EU and Britain.
:01:31. > :01:33.David Cameron will now come home and convene a Cabinet meeting
:01:34. > :01:39.tomorrow for the first time since the Falklands War in 1982.
:01:40. > :01:42.Then the shackles will be off and Cabinet ministers who back
:01:43. > :01:45."out" in the referendum, now thought to include
:01:46. > :01:48.David Cameron's ally, Justice Secretary Michael Gove,
:01:49. > :02:01.The Prime Minister has just been speaking in Brussels.
:02:02. > :02:07.This deal has delivered on the commitments I made at the beginning
:02:08. > :02:13.of this renegotiation process. Britain will be permanently out of
:02:14. > :02:17.ever closer union, never part of a European superstate. There will be
:02:18. > :02:22.tough new restrictions on access to our welfare system for EU migrants.
:02:23. > :02:26.No more something for nothing. Britain will never join the euro,
:02:27. > :02:30.and we have secured vital protections for our economy and a
:02:31. > :02:35.full say over the rules of the free trade single market, while remaining
:02:36. > :02:39.outside the euro. I believe this is enough for me to recommend that the
:02:40. > :02:43.United Kingdom remain in the European Union, having the best of
:02:44. > :02:47.both worlds. We will be in the parts of Europe that work for us,
:02:48. > :02:51.influencing the decisions that affect us, in the driving seat of
:02:52. > :02:57.the world's biggest market, and with the ability to take action to keep
:02:58. > :03:02.our people safe. And we will be out of the parts of Europe that do not
:03:03. > :03:05.work for us. Out of the open borders, out of the bailouts, out of
:03:06. > :03:12.the euro, and out of those schemes in which Britain wants no part.
:03:13. > :03:17.Joining me is Chris Cook. David Cameron being upbeat, but what is
:03:18. > :03:21.the deal? Some things we knew about and some details on things we did
:03:22. > :03:30.not know about. One of the things is we are not going to be bound by the
:03:31. > :03:34.European Union normal rhetoric on ever closer union. That is what he
:03:35. > :03:38.means when he refers to special status for the United Kingdom. We
:03:39. > :03:42.knew they were try to get this deal whereby new arrivals in the UK would
:03:43. > :03:47.not get benefits in full for four years, only gradually. We did not
:03:48. > :03:53.know for how long that emergency brake on benefits for migrants would
:03:54. > :03:56.last. He wanted 13 years but he only got seven. But that was more than
:03:57. > :04:04.people in Brussels thought he would get. Third, child benefit being sent
:04:05. > :04:06.abroad. The original deal was this would be indexed down by the cost of
:04:07. > :04:11.living of the country where the child lives. There was a question
:04:12. > :04:14.about whether Eastern European countries would live with this, they
:04:15. > :04:18.would be major losers. He will get it but it will be introduced
:04:19. > :04:25.gradually, only taking full effect for everyone in 2020. Poland was
:04:26. > :04:29.most resistant to this and child benefit in Poland is something like
:04:30. > :04:36.?4 97 people are weak. Yes, but there are countries like Austria,
:04:37. > :04:39.who have Eastern European migrants with children abroad who might fancy
:04:40. > :04:42.saving some money. One other contentious thing was the eurozone
:04:43. > :04:47.block, the idea that we needed a guarantee that we could not be
:04:48. > :04:50.railroaded into staff if the eurozone voted together for their
:04:51. > :04:55.interests. They have something we can claim as a win and France can
:04:56. > :04:58.also claim is a win, the big supporters of us not having
:04:59. > :05:04.anything. We can cause problems for them if they try to railroad us.
:05:05. > :05:05.Thank you very much. David Grossman has been following the details. Here
:05:06. > :05:20.he is. Not much sleep but still much to do.
:05:21. > :05:24.I was here until five o'clock this morning working through this and we
:05:25. > :05:29.made some progress but still no deal. David Cameron arrived back at
:05:30. > :05:35.the summit trying to exude the air of someone with infinite energy and
:05:36. > :05:39.determination. Good morning. The EU Council president, Donald Tusk, may
:05:40. > :05:43.look friendly but really he is holding the leaders hostage. His
:05:44. > :05:47.view is I will not sit you down until you agree that we can agree.
:05:48. > :05:52.He will keep them here as long as he has to. They have nothing to do up
:05:53. > :05:55.there. They get bored. These are people who certainly think they are
:05:56. > :06:00.very powerful and he's keeping them hanging around. It is utterly
:06:01. > :06:05.deliberate. They cannot get good food, they will not have a good
:06:06. > :06:09.lunch. Indeed, what was supposed to be in English breakfast to formalise
:06:10. > :06:13.the agreement was delayed, pencilled in as an English lunch, whatever
:06:14. > :06:18.that is, before turning into a late afternoon unspecified English meal,
:06:19. > :06:24.before becoming an English dinner, possibly around 8pm. Dogs dinner,
:06:25. > :06:30.anyone? Perhaps it was low blood sugar but flashes of annoyance began
:06:31. > :06:33.to leak out. As time passes, tweeted one senior Czech Republic
:06:34. > :06:39.negotiator, I am or perplexed by the British approach of non-negotiation.
:06:40. > :06:43.Quite unorthodox, to say the least. Annoyance, too, that precious time
:06:44. > :06:49.has been spent discussing Britain. They did Cameron has been warned not
:06:50. > :06:54.to strike a triumphalist note. -- David Cameron.
:06:55. > :06:59.My concern is can we, outside the UK, sell this deal as a fair deal
:07:00. > :07:03.for everybody. If Cameron goes back home saying that he has a big deal
:07:04. > :07:07.and it is excellent for the UK, I fear that many people on the
:07:08. > :07:13.continent might ask themselves, is it a good deal for me? One by one,
:07:14. > :07:16.the leaders started leaving, temporarily, back to their hotels
:07:17. > :07:21.for a rest and presumably something to eat. Financial are core, a stop
:07:22. > :07:26.at a Brussels chip shop. The question for David Cameron, how will
:07:27. > :07:31.the negotiations taste at home. -- for Angela Merkel, a stop at a chip
:07:32. > :07:38.shop. For many, it serves to remind us of our subordinate status in the
:07:39. > :07:41.EU. The process has flagged up issues without solution. A lot of
:07:42. > :07:46.people in Britain, even after 40 years of membership, do not know
:07:47. > :07:50.that EU law automatically strikes down British law. Again, this
:07:51. > :07:55.sovereignty deal flags up the problem without solving it. The net
:07:56. > :08:01.effect is to remind everyone of what a subordinate province we are within
:08:02. > :08:05.this new entity. At 8:40pm, the leaders at last gathered for that
:08:06. > :08:10.long delayed meal. Officials handed out a final draft. Getting agreement
:08:11. > :08:15.to night, though, is only the start of the process. Whilst David
:08:16. > :08:20.Cameron's attention turns towards the UK referendum, there is work to
:08:21. > :08:24.do in other nations, two, where European and national parliaments
:08:25. > :08:27.will now have their say. I don't think a cast-iron guarantee can be
:08:28. > :08:31.given that what is agreed today is what will come out at the end of the
:08:32. > :08:35.day. The parliament will play a bigger role, other factors will play
:08:36. > :08:39.a role. In the end, it is likely a deal will pass because people are
:08:40. > :08:43.committed to keeping the UK in Europe. As long as there are no
:08:44. > :08:48.direct conflicts with what the treaty says and key member states
:08:49. > :08:51.want, it will pass, but there is potentially a rocky
:08:52. > :08:55.want, it will pass, but there is About an hour after they sat down,
:08:56. > :09:05.Donald Tusk announced that the deal was agreed, negotiations were over.
:09:06. > :09:09.I am joined by David from Brussels. What is happening. If I am out of
:09:10. > :09:11.breath it is because I have run from the Prime Minister's press
:09:12. > :09:17.conference which is going on as we speak. A little over half an hour
:09:18. > :09:22.ago David Cameron bounded into the press conference. The British press
:09:23. > :09:25.were today to ask questions. He was clearly very relieved. He has a
:09:26. > :09:33.package, not the package he started looking for. If I look at my notes,
:09:34. > :09:37.one word comes up time and again, "Risk". Risk to our security. He
:09:38. > :09:42.talks about this relationship to extradite criminals from the UK. And
:09:43. > :09:48.risk over the economy. He was asked about the fact that his cabinet is
:09:49. > :09:50.now effectively split. Michael Gove, for example, will be campaigning on
:09:51. > :09:56.the other side of the argument from him. He talked about that. He said,
:09:57. > :10:02.I have known Michael for 30 years and he is a friend, but over that
:10:03. > :10:06.time he has believed Britain is better off outside Europe. He will
:10:07. > :10:11.now be campaigning for that. He has not given us an indication that June
:10:12. > :10:16.23 will be the referendum date but it now seems a racing certainty that
:10:17. > :10:21.if you want to watch the referendum you might have to cancel holiday
:10:22. > :10:25.plans on that date. We heard him in the press conference saying how much
:10:26. > :10:29.better this was for Britain and how it would iron out the problems. Any
:10:30. > :10:37.fond words for the European Union at all? At one point he said, look, I
:10:38. > :10:41.do not love Brussels at all, I love Britain, but I think Britain's best
:10:42. > :10:47.way forward in future is to have this new negotiated relationship
:10:48. > :10:51.with the EU, with a specific clause that will be in a new treaty
:10:52. > :10:57.whenever it is made, that says that Britain is explicitly outside the
:10:58. > :11:02.ambition of ever closer union. In that sense, he tried to set himself
:11:03. > :11:06.out as the outsider from Brussels, despite the fact that he has been
:11:07. > :11:10.immersed in these discussions over the last two days and before that
:11:11. > :11:14.with numerous trips. He tried to present himself as the outsider from
:11:15. > :11:16.Europe, who had to come inside to get the deal he thinks is right for
:11:17. > :11:18.the British people. To discuss, I'm joined now
:11:19. > :11:21.by the Labour MP Chuka Umunna, who is supporting Britain Stronger
:11:22. > :11:32.In Europe, And buy one of the three founding
:11:33. > :11:40.members of grassroots out. What do you make of the deal?
:11:41. > :11:45.Notwithstanding the renegotiation, I would have been arguing for us to
:11:46. > :11:50.stay in any event. I think the things that have been secured do
:11:51. > :11:55.matter. I don't know about Tom but I was not alive in 1975 when people
:11:56. > :11:59.last had the vote on this. Many of the older generation that I speak
:12:00. > :12:03.to, they say they thought they were joining an economic club, not a
:12:04. > :12:08.political union. He has secured a clear commitment that we will have
:12:09. > :12:12.an opt out from this notion of ever closer union. I don't think most of
:12:13. > :12:17.our European counterparts want this United States of Europe. So that was
:12:18. > :12:21.an easy daughter push. You say regardless you would be heading a
:12:22. > :12:26.campaign to stay in. Do you think anything here will make it easier to
:12:27. > :12:31.sell on the doorstep? With the older generation I think the notion of
:12:32. > :12:35.ever closer union is important. Secondly, let's be clear, this is
:12:36. > :12:39.not a referendum about whether we join the euro, but about whether we
:12:40. > :12:45.stay in the European Union altogether. We have a legal
:12:46. > :12:49.commitment that the euro is the only currency in Europe. There are a
:12:50. > :12:54.number of currencies. More competition is essential, if we are
:12:55. > :12:58.to compete with the likes of China. Things that have been secured around
:12:59. > :13:02.the operation of the benefit system, people do not want a free for all
:13:03. > :13:07.but they want the thing to operate fairly. The idea that you pay in
:13:08. > :13:11.first before you take anything is something that appeals. That will
:13:12. > :13:23.appeal to people, that the benefit system has been reformed. I was not
:13:24. > :13:27.around in 1975. Not around in 1985! One of the things I hear time and
:13:28. > :13:31.again is that what people voted for in the 1970s was free trade and a
:13:32. > :13:37.common market agreement. This renegotiation will not get us back
:13:38. > :13:40.to that. With the possibility we now know, confirmed by the Prime
:13:41. > :13:48.Minister that Michael Gove will be campaigning. You presumably expected
:13:49. > :13:51.that? I did not. I have had conversations with Michael and lots
:13:52. > :13:56.of colleagues. We have reached decisions at different times. I have
:13:57. > :14:00.been on this side of the Ottoman for a long time. I gave the
:14:01. > :14:03.renegotiation a chance but this does not deal with uncontrolled
:14:04. > :14:08.immigration from Europe, to make sure we have a system that is fair
:14:09. > :14:12.and controlled. It does not stop us sending ?350 million a week to
:14:13. > :14:20.Brussels. And it will not allow us to trade globally. Let's be honest,
:14:21. > :14:25.we would still be a member of Nato, still a member of the UN, still
:14:26. > :14:30.involved in the GE 20, the G7, the Commonwealth, would still have a
:14:31. > :14:34.relationship with the United States. Talking about Michael Gove,
:14:35. > :14:39.interesting you did not expect that. What about Boris Johnson? I cannot
:14:40. > :14:44.speak for individual colleagues. I do not know when Michael and Boris
:14:45. > :14:49.reached their conclusions. I have been on this side of the argument
:14:50. > :14:56.for a long time. It will come as no surprise to anyone that Michael Gove
:14:57. > :14:59.is arguing for us to leave. What I do not like about this narrative
:15:00. > :15:03.from those who argue for us to leave is the notion that somehow whenever
:15:04. > :15:08.Britain wants to get anything done, and you hear hints of it here, we
:15:09. > :15:12.get trampled by European partners, when nothing could be further from
:15:13. > :15:19.the truth. People have to stop talking down our country in this
:15:20. > :15:23.way. British prime ministers, of labour and Tory persuasion, have
:15:24. > :15:27.managed to marshal a majority on the European Council behind the UK
:15:28. > :15:31.position many times. Usually we are on the majority side nine out of ten
:15:32. > :15:37.times. The idea that we get trampled is nonsense. Also the idea that we
:15:38. > :15:41.do not control our own affairs. I sat through the last Parliament
:15:42. > :15:46.watching a Tory government introducing troubling tuition fees,
:15:47. > :15:51.bedroom tax, these kind of things. This is something the EU have no
:15:52. > :15:55.control over. There were 121 acts of Parliament in the last Parliament
:15:56. > :15:59.and just four dealt with EU legislation.
:16:00. > :16:05.In terms of how you will be campaigning, the latest vote for the
:16:06. > :16:11.Times on the 3rd of February, after the draft agreement, but the outcome
:16:12. > :16:17.pain at 45, the in campaign at 39 and a lot of undecided. There is not
:16:18. > :16:25.a lot here to change people's minds, is there? The argument to stay in
:16:26. > :16:32.the European Union goes far broader. People answering those polls know
:16:33. > :16:37.that, and yet 45 for out. Polls go up and down. This will be close. It
:16:38. > :16:42.will be a good moment for our democracy, where we will have a
:16:43. > :16:46.lively debate. I say bring it on. I agree with the last bit. On
:16:47. > :16:51.doorsteps in Kettering last weekend, we knocked on doors and there was an
:16:52. > :16:54.impassioned group of people out there who want to leave the European
:16:55. > :16:58.Union. I think the debate is welcome to put the question to bed. The
:16:59. > :17:06.difference is that I think we could be so much better off outside. I
:17:07. > :17:08.absolutely believe in Britain. Then why keep talking down Britain. I am
:17:09. > :17:12.not. Save it for the doorsteps. This was supposed to be the big
:17:13. > :17:15.night when the referendum campaign was launched, the Prime Minister
:17:16. > :17:17.triumphantly home from Brussels addressing TV crews on the steps
:17:18. > :17:20.of Downing Street, and the Cabinet David Cameron is still
:17:21. > :17:23.across the Channel but the out campaigners who'd booked a huge
:17:24. > :17:26.venue round the corner in anticipation of the starting gun
:17:27. > :17:28.are agitating anyway. Gabriel Gatehouse joins us
:17:29. > :17:43.from Westminster. What happened?
:17:44. > :17:47.There were certainly raised eyebrows, to put it mildly, in the
:17:48. > :17:52.audience, with almost nobody expecting George Galloway to appear.
:17:53. > :17:56.Some people walked out, not a huge number. There were some angry
:17:57. > :18:00.people. I think quite a few of them just wanted their dinner, because
:18:01. > :18:04.the event was over running. It will be interesting what the campaign to
:18:05. > :18:09.stay in mix of that. This was supposed to be the unofficial
:18:10. > :18:14.starting gun for the leaving campaign. When the rally ended,
:18:15. > :18:22.there still wasn't officially a deal. But this Grassroots Out group
:18:23. > :18:25.isn't the only group hoping to lead Britain out of the EU. There is a
:18:26. > :18:30.lot at stake, not least official designation by the electoral
:18:31. > :18:37.commission and the funding that comes with that. This was an attempt
:18:38. > :18:41.to unify that movement, or at least to wrest control of it, by Nigel
:18:42. > :18:47.Farage and David Davies among them, but they were keen to emphasise
:18:48. > :18:52.their cross party credentials. Labour MP Kate Hoey was on the
:18:53. > :18:56.speakers list and George Galloway. Most of all, they wanted to bring
:18:57. > :18:59.across that they are a grassroots movement, an organic movement and
:19:00. > :19:02.one with a strong antiestablishment favour. -- flavour.
:19:03. > :19:05.In the shadow of Westminster Abbey, a very polite sort of insurgency.
:19:06. > :19:16.They queued up in an orderly fashion and hour and a half before kick-off.
:19:17. > :19:18.Inside, what any European would recognise as a fine example
:19:19. > :19:20.of that famous British sense of humour.
:19:21. > :19:33.Grassroots Out say they intend to win this referendum door by door,
:19:34. > :19:38.Many of these people have their minds made up already,
:19:39. > :19:42.This is being pitched as a movement of ordinary people
:19:43. > :19:45.battling an out of touch elite, not just in Brussels
:19:46. > :19:51.The establishment will be watching this closely.
:19:52. > :19:54.There is a faint whiff of the Winston versus Big Brother
:19:55. > :20:00.What they are trying to do is to harness a mistrust of the EU
:20:01. > :20:03.with a more general alienation from Westminster
:20:04. > :20:08.Good evening, ladies and gentlemen...
:20:09. > :20:11.The problem for Grassroots Out is it isn't really a grassroots movement,
:20:12. > :20:17.It's got only about 5000 followers on Twitter
:20:18. > :20:20.and most of tonight's speakers were familiar faces
:20:21. > :20:25.from inside what they themselves dismiss as the Westminster bubble.
:20:26. > :20:28.Are we going to allow ourselves to be put,
:20:29. > :20:33.by virtue of these hopeless negotiations, into a permanent
:20:34. > :20:38.second-tier of a two-tier Europe, dominated by other
:20:39. > :20:48.There was also a mystery guest, a man whose name was kept so secret
:20:49. > :20:51.he drew genuine gasps of astonishment from some
:20:52. > :20:57.And I want you to give a very big, warm welcome to George
:20:58. > :21:06.Nigel and I agree on hardly anything at all.
:21:07. > :21:11.But we do agree on at least one thing.
:21:12. > :21:14.And it happens to be the most important
:21:15. > :21:20.thing, not only now but in the lifetime of everyone
:21:21. > :21:25.in this hall and everyone in this country.
:21:26. > :21:28.It is the demand that Britain should be an
:21:29. > :21:32.independent, sovereign and democratic country,
:21:33. > :21:38.and that means leaving the European Union.
:21:39. > :21:43.There is presumably little that David Cameron
:21:44. > :21:46.to change their minds, but it is the undecided voters,
:21:47. > :21:48.perhaps as much as one third of the electorate,
:21:49. > :21:52.that they need to reach if they are to
:21:53. > :22:01.turn a Ukip style insurgency into a referendum winning movement.
:22:02. > :22:09.Gabriel Gatehouse. Now straight to Brussels, where we can hear from
:22:10. > :22:16.Angela Merkel. We believe that we have given now a package to David
:22:17. > :22:21.Cameron that will enable him to elicit support in Britain for
:22:22. > :22:27.Britain remaining a member of the European Union. This was his goal.
:22:28. > :22:35.There was no doubt about it. It is true that a spirit of compromise was
:22:36. > :22:39.necessary on our part, but the fact that we wanted Britain to remain in
:22:40. > :22:44.the European Union justify those compromises, and I don't think it
:22:45. > :22:51.was any of us felt that this was particularly easy, but... Angela
:22:52. > :22:56.Merkel talking about compromise, so let's talk about that in Brussels
:22:57. > :23:00.with Alex Barker of the Financial Times and Valentina Pop of the Wall
:23:01. > :23:07.Street Journal. David Cameron was selling this is a big win, but was
:23:08. > :23:12.it? It depends what you judge that on. In terms of the Brussels debate,
:23:13. > :23:16.the Brussels fight, the diplomacy over the last seven months, he came
:23:17. > :23:21.out tonight probably better than expected. He gave a concession on
:23:22. > :23:27.child benefit but, on the main areas he was looking for, ever closer
:23:28. > :23:30.union, promises of treaty change and an emergency break lasting for a
:23:31. > :23:37.seven year period, he pretty much came out well. He didn't give away
:23:38. > :23:41.much. The problem is that he isn't judged on what he can get in
:23:42. > :23:49.Brussels but what he asked for in the first place, and there, well, he
:23:50. > :23:53.didn't necessarily find it very well. He thought there would be
:23:54. > :23:57.treaty change, that he could pitch his demands onto that, that the
:23:58. > :24:03.Eurozone would be making their own effort to integrate, and that didn't
:24:04. > :24:08.really happen. So he was pushing his own agenda unilaterally. He was
:24:09. > :24:13.making all the demands, and that is a more difficult negotiation.
:24:14. > :24:17.Valentina Pop, Angela Merkel saying there was compromise, and Poland was
:24:18. > :24:21.one country which was sticking to its guns for a while. I wonder what
:24:22. > :24:25.the atmosphere is like now among the other countries and what they have
:24:26. > :24:31.had to concede. What Angela Merkel also said was that the deal
:24:32. > :24:39.enshrines the flexibility of having different ideas about Europe and
:24:40. > :24:42.going ahead at different speeds, this principle ultimately of cherry
:24:43. > :24:49.picking what we like about Europe and what we don't. Obviously, it
:24:50. > :24:54.will trigger more fights ahead. Already, Angela Merkel was saying
:24:55. > :24:58.she wants to implement the child benefits indexation that Britain is
:24:59. > :25:03.implementing, a measure that surely central and eastern Europeans will
:25:04. > :25:10.not like. This comes on top of a lot of strife and disarray over how to
:25:11. > :25:15.deal with the block's migration problem. Then what happens is the
:25:16. > :25:19.other leaders go back to their countries and there is agitation for
:25:20. > :25:25.exactly what you say. If Britain can get a la carte, the other countries
:25:26. > :25:33.have to go a la carte as well. Exactly, and he has a lot of fans
:25:34. > :25:37.among central and Eastern European countries on some issues, obviously
:25:38. > :25:42.not on the welfare restrictions, but precisely on this idea that the
:25:43. > :25:45.European Union is not a unified concept, where all of the countries
:25:46. > :25:54.are heading to, but that you can have all sorts of exceptions and opt
:25:55. > :25:59.outs ultimately. Alex, as Chuka Umunna was saying, and it was clear
:26:00. > :26:04.neither camp was going to be swayed, I wonder now, with so many
:26:05. > :26:10.undecideds, whether this deal will make a big difference, when we heard
:26:11. > :26:15.the most recent polls putting the out campaign at 55% already. What is
:26:16. > :26:21.there to say over the relaxed four months? -- over the next four
:26:22. > :26:26.months. This is a historic moment for stop people have been fighting
:26:27. > :26:31.for a referendum for 20 odd years. They were often at the margins in
:26:32. > :26:34.the first place. This has a special momentum of its own, and that is
:26:35. > :26:40.what David Cameron will want to be riding over the next few days. This
:26:41. > :26:43.will be one of the most important, biggest, single issue votes held
:26:44. > :26:48.anywhere in the world in this generation. It is hugely
:26:49. > :26:53.consequential. That will dominate the debate over the coming days. I
:26:54. > :26:56.doubt the detail of the actual package will really be picked over
:26:57. > :27:05.much as the big political drama plays out. Any idea on Boris Johnson
:27:06. > :27:09.where will he be, in or out? I think his policy at the moment is to veer
:27:10. > :27:16.everywhere possible. It is quite hard to tell. It will certainly have
:27:17. > :27:25.changed his calculations to a degree to see Michael Gove on the Brexit
:27:26. > :27:29.side. Let's see. Valentina Pop, you work for the Wall Street Journal,
:27:30. > :27:33.and we heard John Kerry earlier making an impassioned plea for
:27:34. > :27:38.Britain to stay in Europe. Do you think we will hear more American
:27:39. > :27:43.interventions? I couldn't speak for the US government, but surely we
:27:44. > :27:46.will hear a lot of economic impact of what Brexit could mean for
:27:47. > :27:51.Britain and for the transatlantic relationship. Surely, more messages
:27:52. > :27:59.to come from various corners. Thank you.
:28:00. > :28:07.Harper Lee has died at the age of 89. She wrote the Pulitzer
:28:08. > :28:12.prize-winning book in 1960 and after went aground in her hometown.
:28:13. > :28:15.There was a sudden flurry of interest in Ms Lee last year
:28:16. > :28:17.when her lawyer chanced upon the manuscript of a sequel
:28:18. > :28:20.in Harper Lee's papers and Go Set a Watchman was quickly published.
:28:21. > :28:22.It shocked readers with its portrayal of Atticus later
:28:23. > :28:26.But To Kill A Mockingbird will be remembered when Watchman
:28:27. > :28:39.Ladies and gentlemen, Gregory Peck. The world never seems as fresh and
:28:40. > :28:44.wonderful as comforting and terrifying, as good and evil, as it
:28:45. > :28:49.does when seen through the eyes of a child. For a writer to capture that
:28:50. > :28:56.feeling is remarkable. Perhaps that is why one book in the last few
:28:57. > :28:58.years has been so warmly embraced by tens of millions of people. To kill
:28:59. > :29:17.a Mockingbird. There is a lot of talk about the
:29:18. > :29:21.elusive, great American novel, but perhaps it has already been written.
:29:22. > :29:30.The last person to come as close as anyone to writing it was the equally
:29:31. > :29:35.elusive Harper Lee. To Kill A Mockingbird appeared when America
:29:36. > :29:40.was still divided by law over race. Set in the deep south, it was about
:29:41. > :29:46.a lawyer and a father defending an African American accused of raping a
:29:47. > :29:50.white woman. They were not wrong, were they? Now he has been charged,
:29:51. > :30:20.I am going to defend him. Excuse me, Mr York. What kind of man are you?
:30:21. > :30:29.Old-fashioned manners, poverty and racism. This was the south that
:30:30. > :30:36.Harper Lee lived in, as her neighbours recalled. A lot of us see
:30:37. > :30:39.a lot similarities between what she wrote about in things that did
:30:40. > :30:44.happen in this town, and other people would say the same thing.
:30:45. > :30:47.They would say, this could have been about our town. We had a person like
:30:48. > :30:57.Boo Radley. We had people like that. about our town. We had a person like
:30:58. > :31:08.book special. We find the defendant guilty as charged.
:31:09. > :31:18.Harper Lee, Monroeville, Al Obama. With tantalisingly few public
:31:19. > :31:21.appearances, Lee became famous for her invisibility but she caused a
:31:22. > :31:28.literary sensation last year when an earlier novel, Go Set A Watchman,
:31:29. > :31:38.was dusted off and published 56 years after Mockingbird. Our courts,
:31:39. > :31:44.only man could have created them equal. The self-effacing Harper Lee
:31:45. > :31:46.seems heroic and enviably single-minded. For her insistence on
:31:47. > :31:57.the primacy of her much loved words. The author
:31:58. > :32:10.Lionel Shriver joins me now. What age were you? Can you remember
:32:11. > :32:14.where you were when you read Mockingbird? In the bedroom,
:32:15. > :32:22.definitely. I was about 14, a good age to read that book. There has
:32:23. > :32:29.been in total 30 million copies read and sold. What was the appeal of it,
:32:30. > :32:32.do you think? I don't know the statistics, but I would hazard that
:32:33. > :32:42.an awful lot of those 30 million worldwide. I don't want to criticise
:32:43. > :32:48.her when she has just died, but I would call it a morally simplistic
:32:49. > :32:53.book, but it is certainly morally simple. It is appealing to whites
:32:54. > :32:58.because they get to play both sides, they are the bad people and the
:32:59. > :33:04.inroads. It is obvious with whom you are supposed to identify. -- the bad
:33:05. > :33:08.people and the heroes. It is the brave lawyer sticking up for the
:33:09. > :33:16.innocent black so-called rapist. And he fights of the lynch mob and his
:33:17. > :33:23.children make them feel ashamed. It is great stuff, but it is miles away
:33:24. > :33:30.from the kind of cultural complexity... Desegregation years. I
:33:31. > :33:32.wonder if it was helped on by Gregory Peck in the film, which came
:33:33. > :33:47.just two years after the book. I think that had a huge effect on
:33:48. > :33:51.the popularity of the book. You had female writers of a similar age
:33:52. > :33:54.writing who did not have anything like the heft in the public
:33:55. > :34:01.imagination has this reclusive author. In some ways, they were more
:34:02. > :34:09.challenging authors, and their universe was not so simple. They ask
:34:10. > :34:16.you to enter into a much stranger universe than the one you get with
:34:17. > :34:26.Harper Lee. I believe those writers are under red. Let's hit them next.
:34:27. > :34:31.Do you have a theory as to why she was so reclusive? It's pretty
:34:32. > :34:36.obvious that success was terrifying. I am sceptical that she would have
:34:37. > :34:44.occupied, as an author, especially as a character, the kind of position
:34:45. > :34:48.she seemed to occupy if she had not become a recluse and had continued
:34:49. > :34:56.to produce. There is something warped about the way that we are so
:34:57. > :35:03.fascinated and in some ways elevate artists who stop and who have all
:35:04. > :35:09.the opportunity and turned their back on it. It is dramatic,
:35:10. > :35:16.intriguing, but is it admirable? And then, Lo and behold, in her 80s,
:35:17. > :35:21.another book. Well, it is a matter of some controversy whether it
:35:22. > :35:24.really is another book. Obviously a lot of the press thought it was a
:35:25. > :35:31.first draft of To Kill A Mockingbird. And some people think
:35:32. > :35:37.it shouldn't have been published. I don't imagine a great harm was done
:35:38. > :35:40.to her reputation. Certainly, the advertisement of go set watchmen
:35:41. > :35:49.meant there were hugely copies of the original book bought. -- go set
:35:50. > :35:52.a Watchman. But I wonder, looking at how many African-Americans would
:35:53. > :35:56.have read the book, and actually now when you look at what is happening
:35:57. > :36:02.in some areas, we do not have Jim Crow but there is some pretty brutal
:36:03. > :36:07.behaviour going on. That is the thing, this book does not speak to
:36:08. > :36:13.the present moment in my mind. We don't have the same kind of racism
:36:14. > :36:20.that we used to. It is more insidious. People are, mercifully,
:36:21. > :36:27.less comfortable with being covertly bigoted. There are certain kinds of
:36:28. > :36:32.language we do not hear any more and that is all good. We are dealing
:36:33. > :36:37.much more in the United States with structural racism, the way things
:36:38. > :36:41.work, work, not what people say. That is what the black lives matter
:36:42. > :36:45.thing is about. If you are going to get involved in America's
:36:46. > :36:53.institutional racism, it has more to do with the drug laws, and the fact
:36:54. > :36:56.that they are put together in such a way that blacks are
:36:57. > :36:59.disproportionately put away. Thank you.
:37:00. > :37:29.Tomorrow morning's front pages, as you would imagine:
:37:30. > :37:30.Now for arts and night, presented by Andrew Graham