:00:00. > :00:10.I think it's absolutely vital that earn should turn out in this
:00:11. > :00:15.referendum and vote yes, so that the question is over once and for all,
:00:16. > :00:21.we are really in Europe and ready to go ahead.
:00:22. > :00:25.That didn't quite work. This is a vital decision for the future of our
:00:26. > :00:28.country and I believe we should also be clear that it is a final
:00:29. > :00:29.decision. The campaign has barely started, yet
:00:30. > :00:32.the debate in the Conservative Party We'll hear from both
:00:33. > :00:38.sides of the divide. I've been speaking
:00:39. > :00:40.to Iain Duncan Smith. And we'll hear from veteran
:00:41. > :00:44.inner, Ken Clarke. Michael Cockerell will take
:00:45. > :00:54.us through the lessons I made a number of films about the
:00:55. > :00:58.referendum then, which have many pre-echos of what's happening today,
:00:59. > :00:59.as well as a number of startling differences.
:01:00. > :01:04.And the people of Peterborough have their say.
:01:05. > :01:11.We've always been famous for being an independent country. Now we're so
:01:12. > :01:18.much into Europe, we don't seem to have a mind of our own any more.
:01:19. > :01:23.Novice marathon runners are always warned not to start the race at too
:01:24. > :01:26.brisk a pace if they want to make it to the end.
:01:27. > :01:29.Westminster has not taken that advice with the respect
:01:30. > :01:34.It's barely commenced, and it's already off
:01:35. > :01:40.In the Commons, David Cameron got surprisingly close to mocking
:01:41. > :01:43.the suggestion of Boris Johnson that there could be
:01:44. > :01:48.a new negotiation, if we vote to leave.
:01:49. > :01:53.Or is it getting closer to civil war?
:01:54. > :01:55.Our political editor, David Grossman, has been
:01:56. > :02:08.Politics sometimes feels like a nursery dispute. It's about to get
:02:09. > :02:13.very messy. Boris Johnson and David Cameron have been the best of
:02:14. > :02:19.frenemies since they were at school. I love Boris. That's certainly not a
:02:20. > :02:23.phrase the Prime Minister was using today. There's a sense of betrayal
:02:24. > :02:28.in Downing Street after the Mayor of London said he would campaign for
:02:29. > :02:32.Britain to leave the EU. THE SPEAKER: Statement, the Prime
:02:33. > :02:41.Minister. In the Commons, the Prime Minister had his chance to respond.
:02:42. > :02:45.I'm not standing for re-election. I have no other agenda than what is
:02:46. > :02:52.best for our country. I'm standing here telling you what I think.
:02:53. > :02:55.Interpreted by all as a swipe at Boris Johnson's supposed Prime
:02:56. > :02:59.Ministerial ambition. The mayor's view that we can get better terms
:03:00. > :03:05.with the EU by leaving was dismissed by Mr Cameron as fanciful. Sadly, Mr
:03:06. > :03:09.Speaker, I have known a number of couples who've begun divorce
:03:10. > :03:12.proceedings, but I do not know of any who've begun divorce proceedings
:03:13. > :03:21.in order to renew their marriage vows. The jeering there was on the
:03:22. > :03:24.Labour side, but it continued amongst some on the Conservative
:03:25. > :03:29.side when the mayor at last got to his feet to ask a question. Tuck
:03:30. > :03:34.your shirt in Boris. ... The Prime Minister, to explain to the House
:03:35. > :03:39.and to the country in exactly what way this deal returns sovereignty
:03:40. > :03:46.over any field of law making to these Houses of Parliament? This
:03:47. > :03:49.deal brings back some welfare powers, it brings back some
:03:50. > :03:55.immigration powers, it brings some bail out powers, but more than that,
:03:56. > :03:59.because it carves us forever out of ever closer union, it means that the
:04:00. > :04:07.ratchet of the European Court taking power away... The mayor appears to
:04:08. > :04:11.reply "rubbish". It is, of course, absurd to reduce this debate into a
:04:12. > :04:16.battle between two old school mates. That battle is emblem attic of a
:04:17. > :04:19.schism at the heart of the Parliamentary Conservative Party.
:04:20. > :04:22.The danger is the more that's said over the next four months, the
:04:23. > :04:29.harder it will be for the party to come back together again. Liam Fox
:04:30. > :04:33.is a former Defence Secretary, campaigning to leave the EU. It's
:04:34. > :04:38.unwise to make attacks, however amusic they are, on members of your
:04:39. > :04:43.own side. I think the Prime Minister's to Boris Johnson wasn't
:04:44. > :04:47.the wisest thing. How easy it will be to come back together after the
:04:48. > :04:51.referendum will be largely dependent on how well we treat one another in
:04:52. > :04:57.the run up to the referendum. You know, if you smash humpty to pieces,
:04:58. > :05:01.it will be hard to put him together again. The one time the
:05:02. > :05:06.Conservatives seemed truly united today was when they enjoyed this
:05:07. > :05:11.heckle of Jeremy Corbyn. I was in Brussels meeting with heads of
:05:12. > :05:19.government and leaders of European socialist parties, one of whom said
:05:20. > :05:24.to me... "Who are you? The comment, watch as Andy Burnham fails to keep
:05:25. > :05:27.a straight face. Perhaps the Conservatives should contain their
:05:28. > :05:32.amusement, given the state of their party on Europe. A lot of people,
:05:33. > :05:35.including myself, would have guessed a couple of months ago that the
:05:36. > :05:39.floor was 50 Conservative MPs supporting leave. As it is, it looks
:05:40. > :05:43.like they're on track to hit 100, which is a huge amount more. It's
:05:44. > :05:47.interesting to see how that divides within different roles in the party.
:05:48. > :05:51.If you're a Cabinet minister, your majority more likely to remain. If
:05:52. > :05:54.you're a junior minister the leave percentage creeps up. The
:05:55. > :06:01.backbenchers, perhaps a majority will support the leave campaign.
:06:02. > :06:04.There are five ministers in the Cabinet now opposing the Prime
:06:05. > :06:09.Minister. It is another MP who seems to have sparked Mr Cameron's anger.
:06:10. > :06:12.Iain Duncan Smith is one of the gang of six -
:06:13. > :06:14.the Cabinet ministers opposing the Prime Minister.
:06:15. > :06:17.He made a comment over the weekend about how staying in would make us
:06:18. > :06:19.more vulnerable to a Paris-style attack.
:06:20. > :06:22.Well, I spoke to him earlier this evening in his office
:06:23. > :06:27.I began by asking him where he stands on the issue
:06:28. > :06:42.After another negotiation, the suggestion associated with Boris
:06:43. > :06:46.Johnson. There is no plan for a second referendum. Governments can
:06:47. > :06:50.change things if they wish, but to be honest, I would say to anyone
:06:51. > :06:53.watching this, the choice is simply - are we going to leave or stay in
:06:54. > :06:59.on that date. Then we're bound by that. Just how does it feel, I mean
:07:00. > :07:05.as a loyal Cabinet minister, who's been in the Cabinet since 2010, how
:07:06. > :07:09.does it feel to suddenly find yourself completely at odds with the
:07:10. > :07:15.leader of your party and the Prime Minister? It's not easy. It's never
:07:16. > :07:18.going to be easy when you take a decision to not to back your
:07:19. > :07:22.Government. It's particularly difficult if you're in Cabinet,
:07:23. > :07:26.where collective responsibility is ultimately the thing. This is
:07:27. > :07:29.unusual. Then it's unusual times. You're responsible for benefits.
:07:30. > :07:34.Yeah. Benefits have played a big part in the re-negotiation. You've
:07:35. > :07:37.been pretty clear, you don't think what the Prime Minister negotiate
:07:38. > :07:40.issed going to make a big difference, correct? It depends
:07:41. > :07:44.whether you believe that actually this is the main reason why people
:07:45. > :07:48.are coming here. My general view is there is a limited effect. There's
:07:49. > :07:53.always been a limited effect. Some migrants come here for the benefits,
:07:54. > :07:56.I'm sure. But the bigger effect is the fact that anyone can come here,
:07:57. > :08:00.who is a member of the European Union, and then look for a job. The
:08:01. > :08:05.majority come looking for work and it's the problems of the scale of
:08:06. > :08:08.Tha'it displaces -- of that, which displaces communities. This is not
:08:09. > :08:12.against migration, it's against the scale of migration and limiting it.
:08:13. > :08:17.Controlled migration is the issue, which we can't do under the European
:08:18. > :08:21.Union. You were disappointed with what the Prime Minister achieved?
:08:22. > :08:25.Look, I don't think that the agreement as it stands actually
:08:26. > :08:30.reverses or changes anything dramatically. That's not to be
:08:31. > :08:35.churlish about there were some successes. It is a success, to a
:08:36. > :08:38.degree, to get any change from the European Union. Let's not get this,
:08:39. > :08:42.it's being sold as a great moment of change, I don't think I believe
:08:43. > :08:47.that. My main concern is - whatever is on the table now may not yet be
:08:48. > :08:51.what we finally use, because of course, we'll only get this after we
:08:52. > :08:56.say we're staying in. The problem there is that we don't know that the
:08:57. > :09:00.European Parliament won't modify it, no longer having a threat of Britain
:09:01. > :09:04.leaving. We don't know what the commission will do or the council.
:09:05. > :09:08.There are big issues and question marks but notwithstanding that, the
:09:09. > :09:13.big issue is migration generally. Can I ask if you stand by remarks
:09:14. > :09:18.over the weekend, in which you brought up the subject of
:09:19. > :09:24.Paris-style attacks. I suppose I'm interested in what changes, if we
:09:25. > :09:30.leave the EU, and why we would be safer from a Paris-style attack? You
:09:31. > :09:34.stand by what you said? I am deeply concerned about potential threats to
:09:35. > :09:37.this country. I think of all the capital cities of Europe, I think
:09:38. > :09:40.London is probably the most significant target, other than
:09:41. > :09:44.Washington. It's literally on that scale. I stand by my remarks. The
:09:45. > :09:48.reason I stand by them is simple in answer to your question, we don't
:09:49. > :09:53.know in the next two years or so, those who have actually been brought
:09:54. > :09:57.in as migrants under this present chaotic system, we have to say it's
:09:58. > :10:01.utterly chaotic, where half the checks aren't being properly done,
:10:02. > :10:05.we don't know they won't be soon with passports or leave to remain,
:10:06. > :10:09.fast tracked to some countries like Germany. We heard some countries
:10:10. > :10:14.actually sold passports, my point is, in this chaos, it is feasible, I
:10:15. > :10:17.believe, for some people to have basically become eligible within the
:10:18. > :10:21.rules of the European Union and thus be able to come here even through
:10:22. > :10:26.the European rules to our borders. That is just a fact. So, that simply
:10:27. > :10:31.means to me that there is still therefore a threat and that door is
:10:32. > :10:35.not closed. I simply say having our on control of the borders, doesn't
:10:36. > :10:40.mean to say we'd stop everybody, but we could do more of the checks. So
:10:41. > :10:44.I'm interested, this is really important, because it's central to
:10:45. > :10:48.the argument. What will we be able to do when a German passport holder
:10:49. > :10:55.comes to the border that we can't do now? We would be able to create, as
:10:56. > :10:59.we had in the past, a system whereby if we felt that somebody, we felt
:11:00. > :11:02.suspicious about an individual and we wanted therefore not to allow
:11:03. > :11:08.them in, that is our right to say no to them at that point. We may be
:11:09. > :11:13.able to demand further background, background checks done, we may be
:11:14. > :11:19.able to intear gait... We're not going to require visas, are we? My
:11:20. > :11:23.point is, anybodying control allows us to make that check. What are we
:11:24. > :11:29.stopped from doing now that you'd like us to do? If we feel somebody
:11:30. > :11:32.is not what we consider to be a reasonable individual we can refuse
:11:33. > :11:35.entry, we can't do that at the moment. How would we gain
:11:36. > :11:39.information about them other than what we would have now? There are
:11:40. > :11:44.lots of ways to get information. This is part of the exchange of
:11:45. > :11:48.information that we have, with bi-lateral arrangements, like with
:11:49. > :11:52.the United States. We know lots of people, we saw at the Paris attacks
:11:53. > :11:57.were about, people not checked. If you talk of a Paris attack, people
:11:58. > :12:01.picture bombers in Brussels coming through by car, driving straight to
:12:02. > :12:05.Paris because it's a borderless zone. We do explosives checks when
:12:06. > :12:08.you come on the tunnel. Two people check the cars at Dover when they
:12:09. > :12:14.come through. It's completely different. We talked about the
:12:15. > :12:18.intelligence systems between France and Belgium, but they weren't enough
:12:19. > :12:24.to stop the attack. You were up against a lot of senior security,
:12:25. > :12:28.let's call them the establishment, who have taken a very different
:12:29. > :12:32.line. The head of Europol takes a very different line. We've had
:12:33. > :12:39.comments from a former MI5 director, who takes a very different line. I
:12:40. > :12:43.suppose this is an impertinent question, but who should the public
:12:44. > :12:47.believe - should they believe you or should they believe... They don't
:12:48. > :12:51.have to believe anybody, they just have to make their own judgment on
:12:52. > :12:55.this. Do they think, what I'm saying, if we condition troll our
:12:56. > :13:00.borders, on balance we will be more secure. I think it's impossible to
:13:01. > :13:06.argue we won't be. It is bound to be that we would have an added element
:13:07. > :13:10.of security. What they're arguing on a wider case, I'm saying now, if we
:13:11. > :13:13.want a bit more security, controlling our own borders and most
:13:14. > :13:17.people watching would agree with me, I think, means we would have a
:13:18. > :13:22.greater likelihood of being more secure. I leave it at that. Iain
:13:23. > :13:24.Duncan Smith, thank you very much. That's one side of the Conservative
:13:25. > :13:27.schism, if you like. Ken Clarke is arguably the best
:13:28. > :13:29.known Tory europhile. He has been arguing the merits
:13:30. > :13:32.of Britain's membership of the EU He joins us from our Westminster
:13:33. > :13:42.studio. Good evening to you. Just on the
:13:43. > :13:46.narrow point that Iain Duncan Smith was raising there, about security
:13:47. > :13:50.and control people coming in, you're a former Minister of Justice, on
:13:51. > :13:56.that narrow point, certainly you're not going to be worse off if you
:13:57. > :14:01.have better control over who comes into the country. I don't think he
:14:02. > :14:05.could explain why on earth he said there would be more danger. We're
:14:06. > :14:08.targeted by jihadists, it's a serious problem, because we're one
:14:09. > :14:12.of the alliance fighting Isis in the Middle East. We've had terrorist
:14:13. > :14:18.attacks here, which have been carried out by British people born
:14:19. > :14:23.here. But obviously, this has to be tackled internationally. Within the
:14:24. > :14:25.EU we're made stronger. The intelligence services believe, that
:14:26. > :14:30.the chief constables believe that. We need the sharing of information.
:14:31. > :14:38.We need the Europol set up and that is how we protect ourselves. The
:14:39. > :14:43.idea that we cease to strive to maintain a system that makes sure
:14:44. > :14:48.everybody cooperates in dealing with terrorists and on our own, we can
:14:49. > :14:53.protect ourselves better, we're more at risk by being involved with other
:14:54. > :14:56.people who might tell us if they come from Germany that they have
:14:57. > :15:01.information that the person coming from Germany is a jihadist, I just
:15:02. > :15:06.don't understand that. The idea that we're going to be introducing a
:15:07. > :15:12.range of border checks, immigration checks, on everybody flying here
:15:13. > :15:16.from Germany and that makes us safer than the present arrangements, which
:15:17. > :15:20.are very much supported by the people who have the job of
:15:21. > :15:26.protecting us day by day is, I think, a slightly fringe argument. I
:15:27. > :15:29.don't think you'll find many Euro-sceptics pursue that.
:15:30. > :15:35.Do you think, as I listen to you arguing with Iain Duncan Smith on a
:15:36. > :15:38.very basic factual point, do you think your party can hold it
:15:39. > :15:42.together, basically, for the next four months? I hope we do better
:15:43. > :15:47.than when we had the Maastricht rebellion. We were divided then, the
:15:48. > :15:54.Conservative Party. It was the old Imperial right who were against our
:15:55. > :15:58.joining in the first place. Iain was the Chief Whip of the Maastricht
:15:59. > :16:03.rebels and the tensions inside the party that were caused by the
:16:04. > :16:11.Maastricht rebellion, I'm afraid, damaged the political integrity of
:16:12. > :16:15.the Major Government. The fact is, since that time, the party's
:16:16. > :16:19.operated well. It's a very successful Government. Iain has been
:16:20. > :16:25.a very successful Minister inside the Government. Iain and I, and the
:16:26. > :16:29.other Eurosceptics of capable of conducting this argument in
:16:30. > :16:32.reasonable and sensible terms. I'm not remotely surprised that Iain has
:16:33. > :16:38.insisted on being able to argue against this. I don't think anything
:16:39. > :16:44.David Cameron could have negotiated would have stopped Iain Duncan Smith
:16:45. > :16:49.being one of the most consistent, hardline Euro-sceptics. What did you
:16:50. > :16:53.make of the taunting of Boris by the Prime Minister in the Commons today?
:16:54. > :16:56.It did seem like that was coming dangerously close to beyond the
:16:57. > :17:01.civil debate that he himself had suggested. He did it very lightly.
:17:02. > :17:07.Everyone is looking for conflict - and there is a lot of conflict, I'm
:17:08. > :17:11.not denying the party is divided on Europe, it has been throughout my
:17:12. > :17:14.entire political career. The fact is, Boris had made a performance in
:17:15. > :17:21.the first place, of which side he might be on. He has somehow hedged
:17:22. > :17:28.his bets by saying, he might still be next time on the side of staying
:17:29. > :17:34.in, it's an entirely individual position, which I suppose is rather
:17:35. > :17:38.typical of Boris. I don't think what the Prime Minister said was said
:17:39. > :17:46.with malice. I think Boris could have slayed himself. He doesn't have
:17:47. > :17:51.any strong views or convictions and he's obviously opened suspicion that
:17:52. > :17:56.he's worked out that the right-wing activists in our party are more
:17:57. > :18:00.likely to vote no, so he's come down on his own in order to get more
:18:01. > :18:06.publicity at the weekend. In fact, I have tried to do that fairly lightly
:18:07. > :18:12.myself. I think the Prime Minister was quite kind today and you are
:18:13. > :18:16.bound to have in four months some fairly vigorous debate and Boris put
:18:17. > :18:20.himself in a peculiar position using an argument that nobody else uses.
:18:21. > :18:25.Let me take his argument seriously if we could? People have said that
:18:26. > :18:30.you have another negotiation after this one. But it is true, is it not,
:18:31. > :18:36.that after this referendum, if we voted to leave, a negotiation would
:18:37. > :18:40.then ensue? In fact, we would negotiate ourselves back in to some
:18:41. > :18:45.degree to quite a bit of what the EU package is, right? No, the Treaty is
:18:46. > :18:50.clear. You can leave if you want. Actually, what happens if you vote
:18:51. > :18:58.no, and you are leaving, you become an ex-member. No, but the Treaty...
:18:59. > :19:02.You start a negotiation with the other 27, the European Commission
:19:03. > :19:06.negotiates on behalf of the 27 remaining member states and what
:19:07. > :19:12.they are negotiating is the basis of you leaving and that involves, given
:19:13. > :19:15.you are not going to have the existing relationships with Europe,
:19:16. > :19:19.what trade access do you want, what will they give you, what are the
:19:20. > :19:23.terms going to be, what are you going to do if you are going to
:19:24. > :19:28.continue to operate... What makes you think there isn't going to be a
:19:29. > :19:32.political stitch-up, if you like, a negotiation in which they say, guys
:19:33. > :19:38.you voted out, why don't you - let's see if we can do something here that
:19:39. > :19:43.salvages a bit of your membership? That is what half the country and
:19:44. > :19:47.Boris Johnson wants, isn't it? There is no basis upon which they can
:19:48. > :19:52.negotiate. They can do whatever they want. They won't give anybody free
:19:53. > :19:56.access to the market, which is our biggest single market, on the basis
:19:57. > :20:00.we are free not to follow any of the rules, all of which have been signed
:20:01. > :20:05.up to by British Governments in the past. The standards of which you
:20:06. > :20:09.sell goods, consumer protection, environmental rules, they won't say,
:20:10. > :20:12.we will negotiate with you but because you are Britain you can
:20:13. > :20:18.still come in on the basis you don't have to comply with any of the rules
:20:19. > :20:24.anymore. Or oh, we will negotiate with you, but... You won't pay your
:20:25. > :20:28.contribution to the budget of running the market and helping the
:20:29. > :20:32.poorer countries. It is not conceivable. All that will be
:20:33. > :20:38.negotiated - and it is very difficult - is the best arrangement
:20:39. > :20:45.that the 27 other governments will agree to to allow you some continued
:20:46. > :20:49.access, collaboration, work with the European Union. The negotiations
:20:50. > :20:57.will make the present air of uncertainty about exactly where you
:20:58. > :20:59.are even worse. Time up, I'm afraid. Thank you very much.
:21:00. > :21:02.Our last referendum on the issue of Europe was on June 5, 1975.
:21:03. > :21:05.Spoiler alert: the result was in favour of staying.
:21:06. > :21:08.Almost exactly two-thirds voted in favour of staying, in fact.
:21:09. > :21:11.And interestingly, of the four nations of the UK, England
:21:12. > :21:15.was the most enthusiastic for the EEC, far more
:21:16. > :21:18.Well, lots has changed since then, but there are also
:21:19. > :21:26.So it's worth spending a few minutes to look back on that experience.
:21:27. > :21:27.Veteran film maker Michael Cockerell, who has made
:21:28. > :21:38.documentaries on the 1975 referendum before, has been doing just that.
:21:39. > :21:45.# Let's stay in the Common Market... # The choice was whether we should
:21:46. > :21:52.stay in or get out of the Common Market. The referendum campaign was
:21:53. > :21:56.a tragic economic tale that put together the strangest of bed
:21:57. > :22:05.fellows. It was like tiptoeing into a brothel. You felt you might be
:22:06. > :22:12.doing something that was daring. I have made many films since then.
:22:13. > :22:15.I looked a bit different myself then.
:22:16. > :22:19.Whether Britain stays in the Common Market or not depends on what the 21
:22:20. > :22:24.members of the Labour Cabinet understand by the term
:22:25. > :22:28."renegotiation". The Labour Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, faced with
:22:29. > :22:33.an increasingly Euro-sceptic party, had come up with the idea of
:22:34. > :22:39.renegotiations followed by an in-out referendum as a device for holding
:22:40. > :22:45.his party together. The Cabinet was deeply divided. Roy Jenkins led the
:22:46. > :22:53.majority of centrist pro-Market Ministers. Of the seven left-wingers
:22:54. > :22:58.who wanted out, they were led by Barbara Castle and Tony Benn. Wilson
:22:59. > :23:02.allowed his Ministers to campaign publicly against each other. On the
:23:03. > :23:06.day the decision was taken by the Cabinet, the Ministers got together
:23:07. > :23:10.and launched the "No" campaign. Wilson was very angry with us, but,
:23:11. > :23:17.still, we took that position and we did have that right to do it. But
:23:18. > :23:20.behind-the-scenes, the Labour Europhiles had, for months, been
:23:21. > :23:25.organising for the referendum campaign with the help of the
:23:26. > :23:29.businessman, who was to become Treasurer of the Conservative Party.
:23:30. > :23:34.My family owned this hotel at that time. So I had some sway with the
:23:35. > :23:39.management. Politicians from the left and right, who were normally
:23:40. > :23:43.sworn political enemies, would be discreetly summoned to the
:23:44. > :23:47.Dorchester. Somebody would telephone, say, could you come to
:23:48. > :23:59.breakfast on Tuesday morning? You never knew who was going to turn up.
:24:00. > :24:07.It was a group of people who wouldn't have wanted to sit down
:24:08. > :24:10.together in a public restaurant. If this is what politics was going to
:24:11. > :24:14.be like, this was a very attractive way of doing things. I lived so much
:24:15. > :24:18.in the politics of the Labour Party. You had cold rooms and soft
:24:19. > :24:22.biscuits. What was the point of the breakfast? It was planning the
:24:23. > :24:27.strategy about who they were going to influence and how they were going
:24:28. > :24:31.to fight this campaign. In the ballroom of the Dorchester, the Yes
:24:32. > :24:36.campaign was launched by Roy Jenkins, who shared the platform
:24:37. > :24:44.with fellow big cheeses from the Tory and Liberal Parties. Jenkins
:24:45. > :24:47.repeated his pledge to resign from the Government the the people voted
:24:48. > :24:53.to come out of Europe. I stand by that statement. I do not believe it
:24:54. > :24:56.is good for British politics that people should stay in Government and
:24:57. > :25:03.carry out policies which they believe to be profoundly mistaken.
:25:04. > :25:08.At the Dorchester, I asked Roy Jenkins, the miner's son, how
:25:09. > :25:15.damaging he thought a referendum campaign would be to the unity of
:25:16. > :25:21.the Labour Cabinet. He said, I really do hope this whole referendum
:25:22. > :25:27.campaign can be conducted without any rancour on either side.
:25:28. > :25:33.The campaign to get Britain out of the Common Market was led by the
:25:34. > :25:36.Industry Secretary Tony Benn. The public school-educated man of the
:25:37. > :25:44.people, who had come up with the idea of the referendum. I cannot
:25:45. > :25:51.believe that we shall not win on Independence Day a huge vote...
:25:52. > :26:02.Unlike Roy Jenkins, Tony Benn refused to share a platform with
:26:03. > :26:05.members of other parties. Other leading anti-Marketeers
:26:06. > :26:11.included Enoch Powell. This mixed bag played into the hands of the
:26:12. > :26:16.pro-European strategy. Unreliable people, dangerous people don't take
:26:17. > :26:21.their advice, they will lead you down the wrong path. The whole
:26:22. > :26:26.thrust of this campaign wasn't so much that it was sensible to stay
:26:27. > :26:36.in, but that it was complete madness to come out. And anybody who
:26:37. > :26:44.proposed that we came out was off their rocker, or virtually Marxist.
:26:45. > :26:48.As the opinion polls start to turn against the anti-Marketeers, Tony
:26:49. > :26:51.Benn decides to up the ante. He uses his authority as Industry Minister
:26:52. > :26:59.to make a headline-grabbing claim about the effects of our membership
:27:00. > :27:05.on the economy. Is 500,000 jobs lost and a huge increase in food prices
:27:06. > :27:11.at a stroke, caused by the Common Market... I find it increasingly
:27:12. > :27:15.difficult to take Mr Benn seriously as an economic minister. In which
:27:16. > :27:19.this technique in which you just think of a number and double it, and
:27:20. > :27:27.if challenged, you pretend you haven't been challenged and you
:27:28. > :27:33.react by thinking up some new claim. Fleet Street was united in depicting
:27:34. > :27:37.Benn as the bogey man of the No campaign. You became this demon
:27:38. > :27:43.figure in the campaign and was... Who did that? The media did it.
:27:44. > :27:48.Nothing to do with the personal - it was all the party leaders and the
:27:49. > :27:53.newspaper proprietors were determined to destroy anyone who
:27:54. > :27:57.took a contrary view. The cartoonists were in no doubt that
:27:58. > :28:01.Benn's motivation was to replace Harold Wilson as Prime Minister. The
:28:02. > :28:06.media was very strongly in favour of staying in. There were only three
:28:07. > :28:13.papers that were in favour of coming out - one was The Spectator, one the
:28:14. > :28:22.Daily Worker and one the Dundee Herald. In 1975 John Mills was one
:28:23. > :28:26.of the organisers of the "No" campaign, setting up meetings across
:28:27. > :28:29.the country. The campaign we ran was run on a shoestring compared with
:28:30. > :28:34.the Rolls-Royce effort on the other side. Money rolled in. The banks put
:28:35. > :28:39.in very large sums of money. It was very exciting. The big industrial
:28:40. > :28:43.companies? Yes, they came in with very big sums of money. They raised
:28:44. > :28:52.about twice as much money as we spent. How easy was it? Terribly
:28:53. > :28:55.easy. Alastair McAlpine was working for Margaret Thatcher, who had
:28:56. > :28:59.beaten Ted Heath, the man who had taken us into Europe. As the
:29:00. > :29:02.Conservatives for Europe launched their campaign, the old and new
:29:03. > :29:10.leader appeared together in public for the first time. Naturally, it is
:29:11. > :29:13.with some temerity that the pupil speaks before the master because you
:29:14. > :29:17.know more about it than any of the rest of us. Margaret Thatcher's view
:29:18. > :29:22.about Britain's place in Europe then could be summed up in three words -
:29:23. > :29:27.yes, yes, yes. I think it is absolutely vital that
:29:28. > :29:32.everyone should turn out in this referendum and vote yes so that the
:29:33. > :29:35.question is over once and for all, we are really in Europe and ready to
:29:36. > :29:44.go ahead. Passionately opposed to Margaret
:29:45. > :29:47.Thatcher over Europe was the Labour fire brand Barbara Castle, long
:29:48. > :29:52.tipped to become Britain's first woman Prime Minister. As the
:29:53. > :29:58.campaign neared the climax, with the debate at the Oxford union, Mrs
:29:59. > :30:03.Castle was up against Ted Heath and the liberal leader, Jeremy Thorpe.
:30:04. > :30:10.They lured us into the market with the mirage of the market miracle.
:30:11. > :30:15.Holding these views and passionately and sincerely as she can yous, may
:30:16. > :30:21.we assume if the vote was yes, she will not stay on to administer those
:30:22. > :30:34.policies as a minister. If the vote goes yes, my country will need me to
:30:35. > :30:38.save it. Tonight, for the first time in this referendum campaign, Labour
:30:39. > :30:42.minister meets Labour minister to discuss the arguments for and
:30:43. > :30:47.against Britain's continued membership of the common market. In
:30:48. > :30:51.a sense, we must give up some of our political liberty in order - No some
:30:52. > :30:59.of our political sovereignty, which is a different matter. No question
:31:00. > :31:01.of giving up liberty at all. Cut the umbilical cord that links the law
:31:02. > :31:05.makers with the people and you destroy the stability of this
:31:06. > :31:11.country. You are asking the British people now... To destroy democracy.
:31:12. > :31:20.To destroy Parliamentary democracy. And to subject themselves to great
:31:21. > :31:26.dangers in the future. Come on... On the eve of the referendum, Mrs T's
:31:27. > :31:34.jumper features the flags of the nine common market countries. I
:31:35. > :31:39.light this torch. She was lighting a torch for peace in Europe, with the
:31:40. > :31:42.yes campaigning claiming after two world wars that only a unified
:31:43. > :31:47.Europe with Britain as a member could prevent further wars. One of
:31:48. > :31:52.our posters was precisely this, it's better to lose a little sovereignty
:31:53. > :31:56.than to lose a son and a daughter. This was hard-hitting argument,
:31:57. > :32:05.based, looking backwards, on all the casualties. Reassert the right to
:32:06. > :32:10.rule ourselves, vote no. The votes were counted in vast arenas in 67
:32:11. > :32:16.regions of the UK. It's beginning to look as if we may not have a single
:32:17. > :32:20.no counting area in Britain itself. On a high turnout, the people voted
:32:21. > :32:27.by two to one for Britain to stay in the common market. The only area
:32:28. > :32:31.that's come veneer... Roy Jenkins was later to say he had so enjoyed
:32:32. > :32:38.working with like minded Conservatives and liberals on the
:32:39. > :32:41.campaign that he decided to form a new breakaway social democratic
:32:42. > :32:48.party, the SDP. It helped keep the Tories in power for nearly two
:32:49. > :32:53.decades. Tony Benn was demoted in the Cabinet, but over the following
:32:54. > :32:57.40 years, his continued stoking of public disillusion with Brussels,
:32:58. > :33:02.along with the spread of Tory Euro-scepticism led to a fresh
:33:03. > :33:06.in-out referendum. So for me, it's deja vu all over again.
:33:07. > :33:09.I could watch that archive all evening.
:33:10. > :33:12.So what does 1975 teach us about the experience we are now
:33:13. > :33:16.Joining me to discuss this is Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee,
:33:17. > :33:19.a Labour member who voted to remain in the EEC,
:33:20. > :33:23.as it was in 1975, and still wants to remain in the EU today.
:33:24. > :33:25.She subsequently left the Labour Party over the issue
:33:26. > :33:31.Also here is the former Telegraph editor, Charles Moore,
:33:32. > :33:35.who voted to remain in 1975 but now thinks that was a mistake.
:33:36. > :33:45.I did. My first vote, I was 18. I knew no better. But you're not going
:33:46. > :33:50.to now? I think it's unlikely. Was it the wrong call to make? I do,
:33:51. > :33:56.yeah. You've never had any doubts? No, I've never had any doubts. It
:33:57. > :34:02.was The 1975 split within Labour, that's where it began. It led to the
:34:03. > :34:07.SDP split. Let's talk about party dynamics and what the lessons are.
:34:08. > :34:11.You can see it, there them arguing. Are you worried by what you've seen
:34:12. > :34:16.today that the Conservative Party will struggle to... Yeah, it's bound
:34:17. > :34:20.to be pretty tense, yeah. The fact that Boris and Michael Gove as well
:34:21. > :34:26.as what people would unkindly call the usual suspects have come out,
:34:27. > :34:30.means it's a very big division. It directly bears on David Cameron's
:34:31. > :34:35.leadership, possibly even more than it did on Harold Wilson's. Going
:34:36. > :34:40.back to '75, is there anything they should do? Should they try to avoid
:34:41. > :34:47.two Cabinet ministers head to head in a pan trauma studio? -- pan
:34:48. > :34:51.trauma studio? -- panorama studio? I think that's the idea. They can't
:34:52. > :34:56.have a proper debate unless they are allowed to, because this is so
:34:57. > :35:04.dependent on the Conservative Prime Minister and Chancellor being able
:35:05. > :35:07.to have the heft to swing the vote their way against the main
:35:08. > :35:12.opposition. So if they don't debate each other, it will look very odd.
:35:13. > :35:16.Labour people will be very well advised to keep off platforms with
:35:17. > :35:21.Conservatives, it will do nothing to help bring Labour voters in. You
:35:22. > :35:28.have the unusual spectacle of nobody being on a platform. Tory can't be
:35:29. > :35:33.against Tory, Labour can't be... One of the reasons this is happening is
:35:34. > :35:36.the amazing vacuum of Labour on this subject. Labour hope that the only
:35:37. > :35:41.thing they can do about this is shut up. You can understand why they
:35:42. > :35:44.think that. It is very odd. They're not really talkling on the most
:35:45. > :35:50.important subject. The other thing that came out of that period was the
:35:51. > :36:01.party re-alignment really. That must be something in the minds of folks.
:36:02. > :36:05.You talk something like Chukka umunna and David Cameron agreeing
:36:06. > :36:12.with each other four months, every day, in and out, in, and disagreeing
:36:13. > :36:15.with some in their party. How will they go back? They are agreeing on
:36:16. > :36:21.just one thing and on different grounds. You heard Corbyn, who made
:36:22. > :36:26.a rather good speech, the things that we like about Europe, what we
:36:27. > :36:30.support are the social guarantees, the working rights, the guarantees
:36:31. > :36:33.for human rights, all those things that are prime motivations for the
:36:34. > :36:38.Brexit people, those are the things they most want to sweep away. They
:36:39. > :36:42.regard them as red tape. As obstacles. There is a deep
:36:43. > :36:49.difference. When you try and find unity on a campaign together, it's
:36:50. > :36:53.just harder. Isn't it harder to go back and fighting David Cameron,
:36:54. > :36:58.say? No they'll be perfectly happy to get back to fighting. The
:36:59. > :37:02.difference here is that what you had in 1975 was a clear split in which
:37:03. > :37:06.the common market seemed like the future and its opponents seemed like
:37:07. > :37:10.the past. The fact that you've got Gove and Boris coming in, they are
:37:11. > :37:13.arguing for the future. They're saying the EU is out of date. This
:37:14. > :37:17.is all something that is Twentieth Century. Now we're moving, they are
:37:18. > :37:21.in the modernising wing of the party. I don't think it seems like
:37:22. > :37:23.that really. I think that is definitely how they think. I think
:37:24. > :37:28.that's definitely what they're saying. Everybody always thinking
:37:29. > :37:33.they represent the future. Nobody ever says, "I represent the past."
:37:34. > :37:36.What you've got this time is the same sense they're a bunch of
:37:37. > :37:42.mavericks. There are quite a lot of them. Michael Gove is an interesting
:37:43. > :37:50.man, but fairly maverick. Boris is off the scale for mar Rickness, you
:37:51. > :37:56.look -- maverickness, you look around, then you look at the very
:37:57. > :37:59.few Labour people, Kate Hoey, pro-handguns, antismoking... What
:38:00. > :38:03.you're saying in fact is that these people are not members of the
:38:04. > :38:05.establishment. As a member of the establishment you would be against
:38:06. > :38:13.them. One of them is the Lord Chancellor. You can't get much more
:38:14. > :38:18.establishment. No, character. Oh, establishment is character? It's
:38:19. > :38:23.partly was going on in your head. What's clear about the 75 referendum
:38:24. > :38:30.and this one, is that the establishments and the elites,
:38:31. > :38:37.including the one that you're a member. Are you establishment?
:38:38. > :38:41.Others will judge. I do. It's all the people who are not in the elites
:38:42. > :38:45.who are challenging it. The difference between then and now, the
:38:46. > :38:49.elites are weaker now. People are more dissatisfied with them. You're
:38:50. > :38:54.just deciding to call them elites. They are. I'm afraid we have to hold
:38:55. > :38:57.it there. We could carry on arguing, when the show finishes.
:38:58. > :39:00.The great thing about a referendum is, of course,
:39:01. > :39:05.Or maybe you think that's the worst thing about it -
:39:06. > :39:07.but it is true, Boris Johnson and David Cameron have two votes,
:39:08. > :39:10.the same number as any other dysfunctional couple up
:39:11. > :39:14.So let's get a flavour of what the people think in one
:39:15. > :39:18.It has a Conservative MP, one who is campaigning to leave.
:39:19. > :39:27.Katie Razzall has spent the day there.
:39:28. > :39:31.45 minutes by train from London, Peterborough's got one of the
:39:32. > :39:38.fastest rates of population growth in the UK. This town of 185,000 or
:39:39. > :39:42.so saw an extra 25,000 arrivals in ten years, more than half of them
:39:43. > :39:46.from eastern and Central Europe. For this place, and many others like it,
:39:47. > :39:52.immigration will loom large as people decide how to vote in June.
:39:53. > :39:56.The local Conservative MP here is a renowned Euro-sceptic. Today Stuart
:39:57. > :40:01.Jackson told me he believeds Peterborough will vote to leave the
:40:02. > :40:04.EU, having experienced first hand the consequences of Europe's free
:40:05. > :40:08.movement of labour. This afternoon he put out a statement to his
:40:09. > :40:16.constituents explaining why he'll be voting no. He called the EU an
:40:17. > :40:22.anachronism, and said Britain will thrive outside it. The school gates
:40:23. > :40:28.are an example. 30 rang wadges are spoken by kids here. The local
:40:29. > :40:33.council has created places, primary school numbers are up by a quarter
:40:34. > :40:36.in five years. Peterborough has always welcomed different
:40:37. > :40:41.nationalities. It's just a numbers game, is how many and I don't know
:40:42. > :40:45.that anybody can quauntify or -- quantify or decide how many people
:40:46. > :40:49.can you add to a city before the pressure builds and builds. There
:40:50. > :40:54.has to be a ceiling somewhere. Do you think you've reached the ceiling
:40:55. > :40:57.yet? It's difficult to say. From my perspective, in this school here,
:40:58. > :41:02.it's been very well done in terms of it's been a year group at a time.
:41:03. > :41:06.Suddenly we didn't get 100 extra pupils, it was 30 at a time, one
:41:07. > :41:11.year after the other. It's been manageable. In June, whether our
:41:12. > :41:15.relationship with the EU is manageable, will be decided by
:41:16. > :41:20.people here. Get out. We need to get out. When you decide how to vote,
:41:21. > :41:25.what are the main drivers for you - immigration, movement of people?
:41:26. > :41:30.What is it? I think it's overall. Immigration is part of it.
:41:31. > :41:34.Generally, I think for us it would be better to stay with the EU than
:41:35. > :41:37.come out of it. I'm all for mixed culture. It's fantastic. If you're
:41:38. > :41:40.going to let lots of people in, you have to be organised and know where
:41:41. > :41:44.you're going to put them, what they're going to do for a living.
:41:45. > :41:47.They can't just come in and stick them somewhere and hope they fend
:41:48. > :41:53.for themselves. You need a plan of action. We don't have one at the
:41:54. > :41:57.moment. While some point to overstretched services, others argue
:41:58. > :42:01.that Peterborough's economy is thriving. Unemployment is down.
:42:02. > :42:05.7,000 new jobs have been created here in three years. This small
:42:06. > :42:08.business opened two years ago, supplying retailers by lights
:42:09. > :42:14.imported from both inside and outside the eewe. -- EU. I am
:42:15. > :42:18.undecided. I am worried about the future of the UK outside of Europe,
:42:19. > :42:24.in terms of the huge amount of change that might occur with all
:42:25. > :42:29.those trade agreements having to be renegotiated. I don't believe
:42:30. > :42:35.immigration is a wholly bad thing, though I have great sympathy with
:42:36. > :42:41.people who are in the worst part of immigration. I am waiting to be
:42:42. > :42:45.convinced. Already convinced is the warehouse manager, a cheerleader for
:42:46. > :42:50.all things EU, he's scathing about Boris Johnson's decision to join the
:42:51. > :42:54.leave side. I think it's foolhardy. It's more about him becoming leader
:42:55. > :42:59.of the party? I think so, without a doubt. It's actually, that yeah. He
:43:00. > :43:04.just wants to mark his card that he's the man for the job, basically.
:43:05. > :43:10.But at the expense of the British electorate. I don't want anyone to
:43:11. > :43:15.misinform us and take us down the wrong road for the wrong reasons.
:43:16. > :43:19.Which way will Peterborough go? Inside the famed cathedral, a
:43:20. > :43:26.reminder of our country's historical connection with Europe. Cathryn of
:43:27. > :43:27.air gone, a -- aragon is buried here, a totem perhaps for the
:43:28. > :43:36.complexity of separation. Will we keep up this Europe thing
:43:37. > :43:38.for all of the next four months? I'm back again tomorrow, we'll see then.
:43:39. > :43:45.That's all for tonight. Good night.