:00:07. > :00:09.Tonight, is the EU referendum going to be won by fear?
:00:10. > :00:16.And if so, which side stands to gain?
:00:17. > :00:27.You could see interest rates go up, food prices go up, family finances
:00:28. > :00:29.threatened. Those are risks, and I think people need to weigh up the
:00:30. > :00:31.risks. threats to make their point,
:00:32. > :00:35.how on earth do the rest of us French authorities start clearing
:00:36. > :00:39.the Jungle at Calais after a court upholds
:00:40. > :00:49.the government's plan What is going on is French officials
:00:50. > :00:52.are going around with a map of France saying, you could live in any
:00:53. > :00:54.one of these places, you could go to a migrant centre, but he is saying,
:00:55. > :00:56.I don't want to leave. On Artsnight, Lynn Barber talks
:00:57. > :00:58.to two comedians about comedy and mental illness -
:00:59. > :01:11.Catastrophe's Rob Delaney and Ruby When you are really ill, you can't
:01:12. > :01:16.move, and before that, you have a racing mind, but when you are on the
:01:17. > :01:20.way down, you have a racing mind, and they used to show up to events
:01:21. > :01:25.to say, I am perfectly fine, look how popular I am!
:01:26. > :01:30.In a week that feels longer than a month,
:01:31. > :01:42.Come down on the side of security and safety and certainty.
:01:43. > :01:44.Because in this reformed European Union, we know
:01:45. > :01:50.Of course there will be people who try to spread alarm and anxiety.
:01:51. > :01:53.We had much the same sort of thing when the decision came
:01:54. > :02:09.I have no other agenda, I have no other agenda.
:02:10. > :02:12.I think it's quite likely that during that month they would say,
:02:13. > :02:14.let's talk some more, let's see if we can reach
:02:15. > :02:22.a different agreement, perhaps you could have a second referendum.
:02:23. > :02:23.Net migration continues into Britain at
:02:24. > :02:31.And from the European Union we have zero control.
:02:32. > :02:34.It's not for me, for me, a matter of numbers,
:02:35. > :02:39.it's a matter of the type of people we want in this country.
:02:40. > :02:42.We benefit from scale, we benefit from the standardisation,
:02:43. > :02:49.It helps us to reduce our cost base and allows us to be
:02:50. > :02:52.We will be more secure, I think.
:02:53. > :02:59.is impossible to argue that we won't be.
:03:00. > :03:01.So, the white men of Westminster have spoken.
:03:02. > :03:04.And now the rest of the country has to make sense of it.
:03:05. > :03:09.But did any of the noise cut through?
:03:10. > :03:17.Tonight, after a week in which both sides have deployed fears
:03:18. > :03:20.of security, illegality, economic ruin, we're trying to make
:03:21. > :03:23.sense of the strategy each side is using to sell their argument.
:03:24. > :03:33.Do the characters, giant as they may be, pull you one way or another?
:03:34. > :03:36.Or do you still feel like you're fumbling around in the dark
:03:37. > :03:38.like an inexperienced teenager on a blind date?
:03:39. > :03:41.Here to join us are Kiri Kankhwende, Jim Waterson, Toby Young and Anne
:03:42. > :03:56.Lovely to have you all here. Kiri, it is extraordinary to think that
:03:57. > :04:00.this time last week it was all kicking off. The idea characterise
:04:01. > :04:05.the shape of the arguments? It seemed like Punch and Judy, like a
:04:06. > :04:11.lot of men lining up to take shots at each other, and I think what has
:04:12. > :04:14.been lost heart of this is that it is a momentous decision, one of the
:04:15. > :04:19.biggest decisions many of us will make in our lifetime, and the big
:04:20. > :04:23.issues haven't cut through. Why do you think that is? I think it has
:04:24. > :04:31.been caught up in personality politics. It has been very dominated
:04:32. > :04:36.by... Almost as if whoever is more popular, we should leave, when in
:04:37. > :04:40.short fact, no one is putting the case for either side clearly. Do you
:04:41. > :04:46.think this does feel like a personality contest at the moment?
:04:47. > :04:53.We have Boris on the front of the times, and he has clarified their
:04:54. > :04:57.that he does say that no means no at the end of a referendum, but when
:04:58. > :05:06.you look at the timings, whether it was Cameron's day or Boris's. I
:05:07. > :05:09.think there was a risk that the debate could have seemed like that,
:05:10. > :05:15.particularly if not many heavyweights had come out on the
:05:16. > :05:19.leave side, and I think that was Downing Street's hope, and I think
:05:20. > :05:23.we saw from Michael Cockrell's video last week on Newsnight about the
:05:24. > :05:29.1975 referendum, they managed to tarnish the No camp is a group of
:05:30. > :05:36.cranks, so I think the fact that Boris has come out Philippe, then
:05:37. > :05:43.gof, then David Owen, now Michael Howard,... Do you think it was
:05:44. > :05:49.coordinated? There is a relay going on? I think Boris genuinely took
:05:50. > :05:53.until Sunday night to make up his mind. But I think the fact that it
:05:54. > :05:58.is now a much more even contest with big beasts on both sides, and it is
:05:59. > :06:09.not just a war within the Conservative Party, there is Kate
:06:10. > :06:17.Hoey in labour, and George Galloway and so on on the far right, and in
:06:18. > :06:25.question Time yesterday, the panel didn't divide on the usual partisan
:06:26. > :06:30.lines, but it crossed those lines, and the audience seemed a gauge to.
:06:31. > :06:33.The Spectator gets a lot of hits when it glitches stuff about the
:06:34. > :06:41.referendum, and I think the public are very interested. The momentum
:06:42. > :06:46.has been with the outers, people like Douglas Carswell looking like
:06:47. > :06:54.they had a new puppy, the excitement was palpable. But it is more
:06:55. > :07:01.exciting to be on the outside in week one, if you have a campaign
:07:02. > :07:05.called Remain, how exciting is that? The arguments will be fleshed out in
:07:06. > :07:13.the months to come, and I know people talk about the personality
:07:14. > :07:16.politics, whichever country you take with a representative democracy, the
:07:17. > :07:20.argument end up with a head on them, there has to be a person where you
:07:21. > :07:25.think, I agree with him, or I don't like what she said, I have changed
:07:26. > :07:30.from him to her. The problem for the remains side is if you have all the
:07:31. > :07:37.excitement and Boris Johnson, Willie or won't he? It is, all the drama is
:07:38. > :07:46.there, the soap opera, but you still have to find a way, and the cat mark
:07:47. > :07:52.Economist have done a cover saying what they think, and they are in
:07:53. > :07:57.Economist have done a cover saying flesh on the argument, and there is
:07:58. > :08:01.a lot of excitement coming from the other side. There was a poll out
:08:02. > :08:12.this evening online which said that the Tabac three have got the edge --
:08:13. > :08:19.the outers have got the edge. It shows a small edge for the Three,
:08:20. > :08:25.but we still have many don't knows, if you ask how many people have
:08:26. > :08:29.definitely made their mind up, I think half of them would still be
:08:30. > :08:34.surprised that the referendum is even happening, so the idea we have
:08:35. > :08:39.a clear result this far out would amaze me. We have plenty of time,
:08:40. > :08:44.far longer than the election campaign was. You were in Scotland
:08:45. > :08:49.for a long time. Do you remember the point at which the people who didn't
:08:50. > :08:53.know suddenly new? There was a feeling that there was something we
:08:54. > :08:57.could do, but the main thing was that there was a sudden positive ups
:08:58. > :09:01.well that had been building for a very long time, the two years
:09:02. > :09:05.grass-roots work they had been doing, going out to schools and
:09:06. > :09:12.colleges, so from 2012 onwards they had been building up, whereas
:09:13. > :09:15.essentially, a lot of the campaigns are still arguing amongst themselves
:09:16. > :09:22.and only just really deploying their ground troops. And that is exactly
:09:23. > :09:25.what happened, the excitement, people got a big shock by how close
:09:26. > :09:30.it was going to be and that flipped up the last moment, so excitement is
:09:31. > :09:34.a funny metrics, you can feel it palpably and it will drive the
:09:35. > :09:43.debate, but whether it will drive the final outcome is less assured.
:09:44. > :09:52.Do you think there are shy outers in this? Yes, online polls have it much
:09:53. > :09:59.more level pegging, and telephone poles have people much more in
:10:00. > :10:16.favour of remaining. People are saying, I am and outie, just don't
:10:17. > :10:20.tell my friends! Nigel Farage says we spend all this money every week,
:10:21. > :10:24.others say, we get all this money back, so what the public do? How do
:10:25. > :10:30.we make sense of the figures, whether we will be more secure, less
:10:31. > :10:36.secure, spend more, spend less? It comes down to basically through you
:10:37. > :10:42.trust. So the data is irrelevant? On the one hand you are being told that
:10:43. > :10:46.leaving would damage the economy, on the other hand you are told that
:10:47. > :10:49.staying will, you know... So it is a case of going with the spokesperson
:10:50. > :10:53.that you believe, and I think that is one thing people are crying out
:10:54. > :10:59.for, in fact and mentioned that having this personality leads to
:11:00. > :11:04.excitement, but what people are crying out for when you hear them on
:11:05. > :11:07.the street is they just want to know that figures from a neutral source
:11:08. > :11:13.that they can assess the arguments neutrally. Identity there is any
:11:14. > :11:23.such thing as a neutral source in this debate, because facts and
:11:24. > :11:28.figures are subject to assessment. Do people want to be told what to
:11:29. > :11:33.think, you have to say to them, I'm sorry, you have to do some thinking
:11:34. > :11:36.now. The politicians will have to put that across, because if you are
:11:37. > :11:40.waiting for someone to bring you a tablet of stone, we would all claim
:11:41. > :11:43.that what we represent will tell some form of the truth, but in the
:11:44. > :11:47.end, people are going to have to face up to this themselves, it will
:11:48. > :11:52.be a brave politician who says that, but it will probably need to be
:11:53. > :11:53.said. State with us all, because when you haven't got figures, you do
:11:54. > :11:55.have fear. Within hours of a date
:11:56. > :11:57.for the referendum being called, Ian Duncan Smith claimed in a BBC
:11:58. > :12:00.interview that the EU's freedom of movement left the door open
:12:01. > :12:03.to a terrorist attack similar Counter terrorism experts
:12:04. > :12:06.slapped him down, accusing him But it is this scaremongering
:12:07. > :12:10.on both sides that is being widely deployed as the weapon of choice
:12:11. > :12:27.to bring people round. Five, seven, six... Some of the most
:12:28. > :12:31.striking political messages have been decidedly negative, like this
:12:32. > :12:40.American ad from 96 D4, an attack on Barry Goldwater, a Republican seen
:12:41. > :12:48.as gung ho on nuclear warfare. -- from 1964. These are the stakes! The
:12:49. > :12:54.European referendum will probably be a little less apocalypse Vic. But
:12:55. > :12:58.this former referendum campaign winner says the in campaign, which
:12:59. > :13:05.he supports, still has to be pretty tough. When it comes down to it,
:13:06. > :13:10.referendums are an offer of change, and three out of four file because
:13:11. > :13:16.people don't want to take the risk. So you have to pile up the risk,
:13:17. > :13:21.show the risk. The campaign for the status quo in Scotland did end up
:13:22. > :13:23.more negative, the consequence of extensive research by experts now
:13:24. > :13:30.working for the campaign to stay in the EU. During the Scottish
:13:31. > :13:32.independence referendum, the No campaign who were in favour of
:13:33. > :13:36.staying in did some research and their opponents on themselves and
:13:37. > :13:43.their opponents, they found that the Yes campaign was associated with
:13:44. > :13:47.ideas like ambition, Pat Richards, pride, but also risk, but the
:13:48. > :13:50.campaign of staying within the union was associated with ideas like
:13:51. > :13:58.financial security, job security, peace of mind, but also more of the
:13:59. > :14:01.same. See can see why it is that one campaign played up the changes, and
:14:02. > :14:06.the other campaign ended up sending quite negative, it was to use a term
:14:07. > :14:12.coined by a member of their own staff, Project Fear. Always in all
:14:13. > :14:17.polling if you ask people if they like negative campaigning, they
:14:18. > :14:21.don't like it. Everybody dislikes it, but if you then ask them about
:14:22. > :14:26.how their behaviour is changed by it, they hate it, but it affects
:14:27. > :14:30.them. The in campaign has arranged public letters from bosses and
:14:31. > :14:34.generals to seek to make a case that will be very familiar to Scots.
:14:35. > :14:44.Better Together Fridjonsson security. There is concern, though,
:14:45. > :14:50.that these messages are overblown. People should be aware of the down
:14:51. > :14:55.and upsides, but what I object to is the exaggeration of the fears about
:14:56. > :15:01.what might happen, and the exaggeration of the coercing of
:15:02. > :15:05.members of the establishment of retired military types and current
:15:06. > :15:17.officials and the military to rig the referendum against Brett --
:15:18. > :15:22.Brexit. The line between fair comment on opponent and unfair
:15:23. > :15:27.scaremongering is a very subjective. Some of your critics would argue
:15:28. > :15:31.that your concerns about how free movement within the European Union
:15:32. > :15:36.undermines our security... I don't think that is an exaggerated way of
:15:37. > :15:39.putting it. It is rather people to make up their own minds, but that is
:15:40. > :15:46.simply anchoring what I am saying in reality. A vote cast out of fear is
:15:47. > :15:50.as valid as one cast from Hope. You can wish for a gentler politics, but
:15:51. > :15:55.as a way of defending incumbents or the status quo, boy can going
:15:56. > :15:58.negative be effective. This brutal ad help the older George bush crush
:15:59. > :16:08.Michael Dukakis in 1988. While out, many committed other
:16:09. > :16:14.crimes like Many are still at large. Can hope
:16:15. > :16:16.beat that? The
:16:17. > :16:20.project fear, are we? Lets pick up with our panel again -
:16:21. > :16:31.Jim Waterson, Kiri Kankawende, If you were going to embrace project
:16:32. > :16:37.fear, would you say it is a powerful electoral tool? Does it work on the
:16:38. > :16:40.public? There were only two big messages in referendums that
:16:41. > :16:45.coalesce around a single issue. One is its time for change, the other
:16:46. > :16:49.is, don't take any risks, don't throw it all away. To that extent,
:16:50. > :16:53.as your film recollected, people will say, I don't like the sound of
:16:54. > :16:57.something called project fear. It does work as long as you keep it
:16:58. > :17:00.culturally in line with where people feel comfortable. The problem
:17:01. > :17:05.perhaps this week when we got to something... People will choose
:17:06. > :17:07.their own thing... I didn't like the lead involving generals. I
:17:08. > :17:11.their own thing... I didn't like the this is like Panama a couple of
:17:12. > :17:14.decades ago, what are we doing here? Relying on the military to tell us
:17:15. > :17:16.about something that should be something
:17:17. > :17:22.about something that should be on. As a weapon, yes, as Chris
:17:23. > :17:27.Cook's film nailed it, it's a very powerful thing electorally. It
:17:28. > :17:28.doesn't work with Buzz feed, your algorithm is based on happiness in a
:17:29. > :17:41.way. Its puddings and online discussed, it's pleasure, putting a
:17:42. > :17:46.link on Facebook that makes you look like a good, intelligent person for
:17:47. > :17:50.showing this. The fact that prove my case is a strong thing want to put
:17:51. > :17:52.on Facebook, Twitter, it makes them look good and spreads the word about
:17:53. > :17:57.their message. One thing that is odd look good and spreads the word about
:17:58. > :18:00.that we can pick up from the film is while we don't have paid for
:18:01. > :18:04.political ads on TV and radio in the UK, what we have got and what the
:18:05. > :18:06.Conservatives used to great effect during the general election, and
:18:07. > :18:11.they have the same guys working on this campaign, for the remain
:18:12. > :18:15.campaign, they can do paid Facebook ads. They will be targeting certain
:18:16. > :18:17.messages using hard cash to people who could be swung in key areas.
:18:18. > :18:20.It's one thing who could be swung in key areas.
:18:21. > :18:26.having that people haven't picked up on. While Anne MacElvoy
:18:27. > :18:27.having that people haven't picked up have got the fear problem, the
:18:28. > :18:35.unknown. It definitely have got the fear problem, the
:18:36. > :18:42.think they were thrown back on that tactic because they were wrong foot
:18:43. > :18:53.or by the scale and respectability of those who supported leave, by the
:18:54. > :18:54.lack of bounce after the deal brought back from Brussels. It's as
:18:55. > :18:57.lack of bounce after the deal if they've given up having sold the
:18:58. > :19:01.deal and are if they've given up having sold the
:19:02. > :19:05.fear. It is security risk, and a jobs risk. The fact they fell back
:19:06. > :19:09.on it so quickly, they shot those bolts faster than they were
:19:10. > :19:13.intending to. We saw that in the FTSE 100 letter, they only had 36 of
:19:14. > :19:16.the top FTSE 100 companies signing that letter. Why weren't
:19:17. > :19:20.Sainsbury's, Tesco and Barclays Sainsbury's, Tesco and Barclays
:19:21. > :19:22.signatories? And the military letter. One of the signatories,
:19:23. > :19:27.General Sir Michael letter. One of the signatories,
:19:28. > :19:32.didn't know anything about it. The whole idea of your character, the
:19:33. > :19:34.danger, possibly, that we then talk about Europe, when
:19:35. > :19:37.danger, possibly, that we then talk EU. People don't want to seem
:19:38. > :19:43.anti-European because they think they like Europe, but they might not
:19:44. > :19:47.feel as if they want to embody the EU, do you think there is an
:19:48. > :19:52.identity thing going on here? I do think it's a factor insofar as, I
:19:53. > :19:56.mean, everyone likes going on holiday, people talk about living
:19:57. > :20:04.abroad. I think when it comes down to fit what people see is people. --
:20:05. > :20:07.when it comes down to it. It comes down to migration, immigration, we
:20:08. > :20:12.think of it as people coming in rather than us going out. We think
:20:13. > :20:17.of it as an inbound flow. Facts and figures. Things like numerous
:20:18. > :20:21.studies that have found immigrants actually put in more than they take
:20:22. > :20:25.out, those sorts of figures seem to... They don't seem to land in the
:20:26. > :20:30.immigration debate. And we don't really talk about the people from
:20:31. > :20:36.the UK as much, going to work abroad. I wonder whether part of the
:20:37. > :20:40.imbalance, if you like, of this whole referendum argument, is there
:20:41. > :20:45.isn't a corner for passionate federalists. It's a question of...
:20:46. > :20:53.UR a bit negative or very negative, nobody is really on the... Stars on
:20:54. > :20:56.the flag. They use to become its a very good point you raise, there
:20:57. > :21:01.used to be the stuff I remember writing about split over Europe in
:21:02. > :21:05.the Tory party and across the parties in the 1990s. There were
:21:06. > :21:12.outright federalists supporters, Peter Mandelson, everyone remembers.
:21:13. > :21:19.Nick Clegg. They had a strong, pro-European stance, which was about
:21:20. > :21:22.the institution. The EU is a damaged institution and there are worries
:21:23. > :21:29.about its handling of things like the Eurozone crisis and migration,
:21:30. > :21:32.these things worry people. On the other hand, there is something you
:21:33. > :21:37.said about people not wanting to be cut off from it. They think, I go
:21:38. > :21:40.there on holiday, I might want to work there. There is a sense that it
:21:41. > :21:44.needs to be addressed by Toby's side of the argument. They worry
:21:45. > :21:48.something bad will happen that they can't put their finger on now, that
:21:49. > :21:52.they would be able to do something if we leave. No doubt there will be
:21:53. > :21:56.some scaremongering saying we won't be able to travel as freely in
:21:57. > :22:01.Europe. I don't think anybody who lives in Spain or France will have
:22:02. > :22:06.to come home the day after Brexit. You are right there aren't any
:22:07. > :22:11.full-blooded federalists in this debate. Downing Street have blocked
:22:12. > :22:15.themselves into a corner, Cameron and Osborne for years, and a lot of
:22:16. > :22:21.other inners, have been presenting themselves as fundamentally
:22:22. > :22:25.Eurosceptic, rather than Europhiles. That is why they made this big song
:22:26. > :22:31.and dance about securing special status as a result of this deal for
:22:32. > :22:33.the UK and the European Union. Some associate membership. Having not
:22:34. > :22:38.secured that, they can't fall back on claiming to be full-blown
:22:39. > :22:41.federalists because it would completely be at odds with how they
:22:42. > :22:46.presented their attitudes before. They have to fall back on project
:22:47. > :22:52.fear, they've nothing else. We've run out of time, but you are welcome
:22:53. > :22:56.back next week. While the debate about Europe rages here, French
:22:57. > :22:59.authorities have been going from tent to tent in the jungle in Calais
:23:00. > :23:01.telling residents it is time to leave.
:23:02. > :23:03.Yesterday a court upheld a government plan to clear
:23:04. > :23:06.the sprawling camp - which is home to thousands
:23:07. > :23:09.Most of them want to come to Britain.
:23:10. > :23:11.But the French authorities say they must relocate to official
:23:12. > :23:13.migrant centres or apply for asylum in France.
:23:14. > :23:16.It comes at the end of a week in which EU nations traded
:23:17. > :23:18.recriminations over refugee policy and the bloc's migration
:23:19. > :23:21.commissioner warned that the system was in danger of breaking down
:23:22. > :23:24.Our reporter Gabriel Gatehouse has spent the week in Calais
:23:25. > :23:27.and was there as the authorities went in this morning.
:23:28. > :23:47.They're going in not with bulldozers but with offers of resettlement.
:23:48. > :23:50.The authorities now have the legal right to clear the Jungle,
:23:51. > :24:00.but for the moment, they are asking rather than telling people to leave.
:24:01. > :24:02.It's your decision, not their decision.
:24:03. > :24:07.The trouble is, they don't seem to be very persuasive.
:24:08. > :24:10.So, the man who lives in this tent doesn't
:24:11. > :24:12.want to be filmed, but what's going on is the French officials
:24:13. > :24:15.are going around with a map of France saying,
:24:16. > :24:18.you can live in any one of these places, you can go to a refugee
:24:19. > :24:20.or migrant reception centre, but he's saying, I don't
:24:21. > :24:28.These are tough living conditions but,
:24:29. > :24:31.given the option to move to other parts of France,
:24:32. > :24:33.places where some people would happily go on holiday,
:24:34. > :24:36.most of the residents of the Jungle say they choose this.
:24:37. > :24:51.In new camp, there is no place for community or cook by yourself.
:24:52. > :24:54.Here, I can find my freedom, I am treated like human beings.
:24:55. > :24:57.Did they say that you could stay if you want
:24:58. > :25:02.No, they said to us, maybe after two or three weeks,
:25:03. > :25:19.Because I feel over there there are a lot of freedoms.
:25:20. > :25:20.There are nice people over there.
:25:21. > :25:26.Many of the migrants speak of heavy-handed police tactics.
:25:27. > :25:28.Night-time raids with tear gas and rubber bullets.
:25:29. > :25:30.As news of the court ruling came through yesterday
:25:31. > :25:34.evening, the mood in the camp was tense.
:25:35. > :25:38.But the prefect of the region told us no one would be moved by force.
:25:39. > :25:49.We will persuade them to move of their own accord.
:25:50. > :25:51.One of the options on offer is this gated camp
:25:52. > :25:56.Access is controlled by a palm print.
:25:57. > :25:59.Once inside, accommodation is in shipping
:26:00. > :26:08.It may be warm, but it's pretty soulless, and it's not popular.
:26:09. > :26:10.In any case, there are only 300 spaces
:26:11. > :26:13.left in the container park, and the southern part of the Jungle
:26:14. > :26:18.The truth is, the local authorities simply
:26:19. > :26:22.don't have the capacity to rehouse them all.
:26:23. > :26:24.Well, this strange state of limbo that the Jungle now finds
:26:25. > :26:28.itself in is symptomatic of a much wider problem.
:26:29. > :26:31.There are tens of thousands of people heading towards
:26:32. > :26:35.Nobody can stop them, but nobody can agree
:26:36. > :26:41.The Jungle is also home to a small army of mostly
:26:42. > :26:47.Many have spent months building up a community which they now fear
:26:48. > :26:55.There is little affection between them and the police
:26:56. > :27:04.The weeks ahead will doubtless bring more tensions as the authorities
:27:05. > :27:08.dismantle vacant tents and try to move the migrants on.
:27:09. > :27:16.Across Europe, the failure to forge a common strategy to tackle this
:27:17. > :27:27.crisis is straining the very bonds that hold the EU together.
:27:28. > :27:29.Leaks from a report into the death of the young Tory activist
:27:30. > :27:34.Elliot Johnson amid allegations of bullying
:27:35. > :27:37.by the Conservative Mark Clarke suggest it will say "potential
:27:38. > :27:39.criminal matters" were committed on the campaign road trip ahead
:27:40. > :27:45.The British Transport Police report, seen by the Daily Mail,
:27:46. > :27:47.is also believed to contain claims that Elliott had battled
:27:48. > :27:50.with depression for years, and had tried to commit
:27:51. > :27:54.Elliot was found dead on a railway line last September
:27:55. > :28:02.with a note accusing Mr Clarke of bullying him.
:28:03. > :28:05.For the past four months, Newsnight has been investigating
:28:06. > :28:06.allegations of bullying within the youth wing
:28:07. > :28:09.Today, James Clayton spoke to Ray Johnson,
:28:10. > :28:15.Elliott's dad, and asked him if the claims were true.
:28:16. > :28:20.Elliott looked like everything was normal, there was no problem. We
:28:21. > :28:25.first found out about it when we got a call from school to say Elliott
:28:26. > :28:32.had told somebody in the school he had taken something. And he'd been
:28:33. > :28:38.taken to hospital. That was the first we were aware Elliott had a
:28:39. > :28:45.problem with mental health. Had he tried to take his life after that
:28:46. > :28:50.when he was at school? The next incident was some months later.
:28:51. > :28:58.Elliott had gone to a friend's birthday party. He told us later
:28:59. > :29:03.that somebody had put a coin in his drink and he almost choked on it. It
:29:04. > :29:09.upset him. Friends were laughing at him. He stormed out of the party. He
:29:10. > :29:16.told us that he tried to hang himself. We've been concerned since
:29:17. > :29:24.the first incidents. We went to the GP with Elliott, the GP referred him
:29:25. > :29:29.to a psychiatric centre. He'd had several visits to the psychiatrist
:29:30. > :29:36.with us. The third attempt came out of the blue. Elliott said previously
:29:37. > :29:40.he had tried to drown himself. Under closer discussion and talking with
:29:41. > :29:45.Elliott, it seemed they were cries for help more than anything else. He
:29:46. > :29:49.had a difficult time for a period of about a year. He was a vulnerable
:29:50. > :29:55.lad, clearly, had a number of issues. He worked hard to resolve
:29:56. > :30:04.those issues. Following that period over one year, he matured, he went
:30:05. > :30:06.to university, had no further problems. He looked forward to
:30:07. > :30:12.getting on with the next stage of his life. It's also been reported
:30:13. > :30:16.that Elliott became depressed after coming out as gay in 2010. And that
:30:17. > :30:22.his family had initially struggled to come to terms with his sexuality.
:30:23. > :30:27.When did he tell you he was gay? He didn't actually tell us he was
:30:28. > :30:34.actually gay until two and a half years ago. And how did you react to
:30:35. > :30:42.that? By then we'd got used to the idea, we knew that Elliott was
:30:43. > :30:47.probably tending towards being gay, so it wasn't a real surprise to us,
:30:48. > :30:51.to be honest, at that stage. He was also fairly open about it with his
:30:52. > :30:57.friends in London, so there was no reason for him to take his life
:30:58. > :31:04.because of the fact that he was gay. His friends... He was open to them
:31:05. > :31:09.about it. Everybody knew about it. It should be no reason, no bearing
:31:10. > :31:15.on that. We've obviously talked a lot in the last few months. You've
:31:16. > :31:19.never actually mentioned he had mental health problems, that he had
:31:20. > :31:25.had mental problems, that he tried to take his own life before, why
:31:26. > :31:30.didn't you bring that up? We didn't think at that stage it was the right
:31:31. > :31:33.thing to say, we were trying... We knew at some stage it would come out
:31:34. > :31:40.because it would become part of the medical evidence at the coroner 's
:31:41. > :31:49.enquiry, inquest. Five months ago we were struggling with the loss of our
:31:50. > :31:53.son. And we were worried, I suppose, that if we'd raised the point that
:31:54. > :31:59.Elliott had mental health issues a number of years previously, that
:32:00. > :32:03.would have made it more difficult for us to get justice for him. I
:32:04. > :32:07.think people would have just thought this was just another vulnerable
:32:08. > :32:12.young boy with mental health issues who decided to commit to aside. And
:32:13. > :32:19.would not have looked any further to the fact of what drove our son to
:32:20. > :32:27.his suicide. Once again, you don't think that is relevant to my Elliott
:32:28. > :32:30.ended up taking his own life? No, it's not relevant, Elliott took his
:32:31. > :32:37.life because he'd been bullied. And picked on generally. By certain
:32:38. > :32:41.persons. And let down by other organisations around the
:32:42. > :32:45.Conservative Party. He was treated badly, that's why he took his life.
:32:46. > :32:49.He was treated appallingly by people and organisations and we want to
:32:50. > :32:55.make sure Elliott receives justice for what happened to him. Ray
:32:56. > :32:57.Johnson, Elliot Johnson's dad, speaking to James Clayton.
:32:58. > :33:02.Rob Delaney and Ruby Wax, about the links between comedy
:33:03. > :33:12.We should warn you this programme contains strong language.
:33:13. > :33:17.They say that for every four people walking the streets of this country,