:00:00. > :00:07.More European countries are resorting to an old-school
:00:08. > :00:10.technique for controlling migration - the barbed wire fence.
:00:11. > :00:18.But today, the resulting strains showed.
:00:19. > :00:28.I swear if there is human rights, they shoot it off with what they do
:00:29. > :00:30.with us. Can fences really stop the flow
:00:31. > :00:32.of people into Europe? And what does it say about Europe
:00:33. > :00:35.that that's the main response? We'll hear from the Macedonian
:00:36. > :00:37.foreign minister Also tonight - the EU
:00:38. > :00:43.debate and the left. Not always the closest of buddies
:00:44. > :00:53.We'll ask how self-respecting We have European bureaucracy
:00:54. > :00:56.unaccountable to everybody. Powers have gone from national parliaments.
:00:57. > :01:01.Think have gone to the commission and to some extent the council of
:01:02. > :01:03.ministers. We ask how self-respecting socialists should
:01:04. > :01:06.vote in the EU referendum this year. And, did this moment in 1945 mark
:01:07. > :01:19.the official start of a new era It's a signal that will persist. We
:01:20. > :01:25.know it's going to last for as long as 100,000 years. It's a very good
:01:26. > :01:26.signal for future geologists. And is there something different
:01:27. > :01:35.about Donald Trump? At different ends of Europe,
:01:36. > :01:40.migrants have been meeting tear gas today, as Europe fashions
:01:41. > :01:43.a more forceful response In Calais, the new fences around
:01:44. > :01:48.the Eurotunnel terminal have made it significantly harder
:01:49. > :01:51.to get into Britain, The French want an end
:01:52. > :01:56.to the Jungle, but migrants protested today, as
:01:57. > :01:59.demolition teams went in. In Macedonia, a border has been
:02:00. > :02:02.reimposed, trapping thousands in Greece, people who want
:02:03. > :02:05.to journey up to northern Europe, Now you could call it
:02:06. > :02:12.the Donald Trump solution - build walls to stop
:02:13. > :02:15.people coming in. For some, it's the idea
:02:16. > :02:17.that actually works. For others, it simply
:02:18. > :02:20.shows you have a choice. You can have strong borders
:02:21. > :02:22.or humane values, but it's hard Let's start with our diplomatic
:02:23. > :02:33.editor, Mark Urban. But today's message
:02:34. > :02:40.is one of control This morning at Idomeni on Greece's
:02:41. > :02:48.border with Macedonia, they were rationing
:02:49. > :02:52.the numbers allowed over and a crowd of frustrated people
:02:53. > :02:57.started attacking the gates. Thousands have passed this
:02:58. > :03:00.way, but when people thought that might be
:03:01. > :03:02.over, their feelings Macedonians had been
:03:03. > :03:16.expecting this moment, They shot rubber bullets at those
:03:17. > :03:21.trying to pull down the fence. Women, children, even babies
:03:22. > :03:50.fighting for breath. To turn one of the weakest cub
:03:51. > :03:55.Fridays Europe, with an underpaid civil -- country, and to turn it
:03:56. > :03:58.into the place that will stop this mass a refugee movement. This was
:03:59. > :04:02.bound to lead to the scenes we see now. In the short-term it's bound to
:04:03. > :04:08.fail. For months thousands of MI5 grants have made their way north,
:04:09. > :04:14.through the Balkans -- 000 sands of migrants have made their way north.
:04:15. > :04:21.The sauce terrines had started fencing off their border with fellow
:04:22. > :04:25.EU and Schengen member Slovenia. So their declaration sparked a chain
:04:26. > :04:28.reaction, down through Croatia, Hungary, Serbia and Macedonia, none
:04:29. > :04:34.of whom wanted to have tens of thousands of pie glants backing up
:04:35. > :04:41.in their countries. With Macedonia -- migrants backing up in their
:04:42. > :04:47.countries. For Greece this is a humanitarian catastrophe. It is
:04:48. > :04:52.irresponsible and it is foolish for members of the eurozone that has so
:04:53. > :04:57.much at stake in Greek stability to risk it in this way. Earlier this
:04:58. > :05:01.month, the army was putting finishing touches to this camp in
:05:02. > :05:06.northern Greece. Since we've filmed, it's filled to overflowing. The
:05:07. > :05:09.Greeks hope that as borders tighten to the north, word would get back
:05:10. > :05:14.and the number crossing from Turkey would fall. That hasn't happened
:05:15. > :05:19.yet, but plenty of European decision makers will be hoping a message is
:05:20. > :05:23.being sent. In some ways the Western Balkan states have become a proxy
:05:24. > :05:27.for these ideas, who would win out - would they allow people to come
:05:28. > :05:30.through to the north-western European states or close their
:05:31. > :05:34.borders and effectively do something that the European Union has itself
:05:35. > :05:39.found it difficult to do, which is to say no to people who want to move
:05:40. > :05:42.through. To some extent, I think the Western Balkan states have been
:05:43. > :05:45.helpful to many of the EU member states in doing some of the things
:05:46. > :05:51.that they themselves don't feel comfortable doing. In Calais, also
:05:52. > :05:58.today, there were violent scenes as riot police moved to demolish parts
:05:59. > :06:04.of the MI5 grant camp. -- migrant camp. It's bound to be ugly. And as
:06:05. > :06:06.to whether it can work, the argument is just beginning.
:06:07. > :06:09.A big question, I suppose: are fences offensive
:06:10. > :06:14.Earlier, I spoke to Macedonian Foreign Minister,
:06:15. > :06:16.Nikola Poposki, and former British Foreign Secretary,
:06:17. > :06:26.Why has Macedonia introduced tougher border controls?
:06:27. > :06:32.We are eventually preventing illegal crossings from Greece into
:06:33. > :06:36.Macedonia, since we observe several hundreds of thousands of people
:06:37. > :06:44.crossing this border over the last year-and-a-half. Right now, what we
:06:45. > :06:48.are trying do is implement European council decisions, prevent illegal
:06:49. > :06:52.crossings and have reception centres to register migrants. Today your
:06:53. > :06:56.country fired tear gas on many people, many of them children. I'm
:06:57. > :07:03.wondering whether that is what you went into politics for? I don't
:07:04. > :07:10.think that this is a fair judgment. What we have seen is some 400 young
:07:11. > :07:15.male people trying forcibly to enter mass donian territory from Greece.
:07:16. > :07:19.If you were part of the security forces and you're faced with the
:07:20. > :07:24.situation where you have violent attempt from several hundred young
:07:25. > :07:28.male people to enter a territory, without willing to register, or to
:07:29. > :07:32.go to reception centres, I don't think this is in line with what we
:07:33. > :07:36.agreed on the European level. If you ask me, I think the easiest thing to
:07:37. > :07:42.do for Macedonia is to simply pull out and let all the migrants cross
:07:43. > :07:47.its territory on the way to western European countries. It is precisely
:07:48. > :07:50.what EU member states have been lobbying against and essentially,
:07:51. > :07:56.they have said that they want to have a comprehensive MI5 grags
:07:57. > :08:00.system -- migration system. And that you have to have asylum seekers that
:08:01. > :08:03.would have to register. If they fulfil the conditions they can
:08:04. > :08:07.continue to the European Union. Macedonia just happens to be a
:08:08. > :08:12.country that St not part of the European Union, but -- that is not
:08:13. > :08:17.part of the European Union but is on the migration road. Who is it you
:08:18. > :08:22.blame for the predicament you're in? I don't think blame is the right
:08:23. > :08:26.formulation. Every single country on this migration road has its own
:08:27. > :08:30.arguments. If you ask Turkey, they will say they have been home to 2. 5
:08:31. > :08:35.million migrants over four or five years and that no-one has reacted
:08:36. > :08:39.until part of these migrants have chosen to take the road and end up
:08:40. > :08:42.in western Europe. Greece is in a delicate situation, it's at the
:08:43. > :08:47.external border of the Schengen zone. But on the other side, it has
:08:48. > :08:52.to defend a number of islands that are very difficult to control. Then
:08:53. > :08:56.Macedonia is the next border. Most of these migrants reach the border
:08:57. > :09:01.within 24 hours from Turkey. Then they continue their road to western
:09:02. > :09:06.Europe. I don't think Germany is in this story because we have to have
:09:07. > :09:08.the human treatment all along the road, including the final
:09:09. > :09:13.destination for all these people that have a need or are fleeing a
:09:14. > :09:18.conflict. But right now we have to have a system. The biggest problem
:09:19. > :09:23.is that this system doesn't seem to work. Therefore each one of us has
:09:24. > :09:29.to do his part of the responsibility on his own territory. Right. If you
:09:30. > :09:33.are asking for a suggestion, I would say that the best thing to do is
:09:34. > :09:36.focus all our efforts on the EU external border to work in
:09:37. > :09:42.partnership with Turkey and make sure that there is 100% registration
:09:43. > :09:47.of legitimate asylum seekers that they're atloud to continue their
:09:48. > :09:51.road and transit through Macedonia and eventually arrive in Germany.
:09:52. > :09:54.You must be disappointed to see Europe falling into this system of
:09:55. > :10:03.individual countries building their own fences. The last thing we would
:10:04. > :10:09.like to do is invest public money in fencing the border. This is a small
:10:10. > :10:12.section. It is done with one single purpose - preventing illegal
:10:13. > :10:16.crossing. If you ask British taxpayers, they will make the same
:10:17. > :10:20.argument, that essentially it's not something that is good, but we
:10:21. > :10:25.definitely need to prevent illegal migration if we want to act
:10:26. > :10:30.responsibly. We will be the first ones that will act in order to
:10:31. > :10:33.dismantle these fences across Europe because we want to join the European
:10:34. > :10:38.Union. That's our objective. Thank you very much for that. Let me just
:10:39. > :10:42.turn to David Miliband, former Foreign Secretary, observer of these
:10:43. > :10:49.things now running the International Rescue Committee. Do you have
:10:50. > :10:52.sympathy for what he was just describing, their dilemma, they
:10:53. > :10:57.basically can't just take everybody on their own. They've had hundreds
:10:58. > :11:00.of thousands passing through. At some point, under taking their
:11:01. > :11:04.guidance, their lead from what everyone else is doing, they have to
:11:05. > :11:09.put up a fence as well. Do you have sympathy for that? I haven't seen
:11:10. > :11:13.the pictures or stories of tear gas being fired at kids. One never has
:11:14. > :11:21.sympathy for that. I think Macedonia is one of the victims of the beggar
:11:22. > :11:26.my neighbour policies undertaken by some European policies. There needs
:11:27. > :11:30.to be first, safe and legal routes to hope for those trapped in the
:11:31. > :11:35.Middle East. Second, that Europe needs to maintain its border in an
:11:36. > :11:39.effective and organised way. Third, that no one European country, not
:11:40. > :11:43.even Germany, can bear the whole load on their own. There needs to be
:11:44. > :11:47.the relocation of people around Europe and fourthly, the rest of the
:11:48. > :11:51.world needs to chime in. It's good that the Canadian government have
:11:52. > :11:55.taken 25,000 Syrians direct from the Middle East. The US has only taken
:11:56. > :11:59.10,000. That needs to be increased many fold if there is to be a
:12:00. > :12:03.comprehensive response that is essential in the absence of a
:12:04. > :12:07.resolution of the Syrian conflict which tragically is still a long way
:12:08. > :12:12.off. Do you think fences with razor wire and barbed wire on top of them,
:12:13. > :12:17.do you think those fences do fundamentally work? Like it or not,
:12:18. > :12:21.do they work at actually stopping people crossing at places where you
:12:22. > :12:25.don't want them to cross? That's a great question. All of our
:12:26. > :12:32.experience at the international Rose cue committee, we work in 30
:12:33. > :12:34.countries around the world, all our experience of fences, the higher you
:12:35. > :12:39.are build them, the higher people jump. The more that they tunnel, the
:12:40. > :12:44.more that they work around them. The real people that benefit from higher
:12:45. > :12:48.walls are the smugglers. It's 1200 euros to get across the six
:12:49. > :12:52.kilometres of the Aegean sea from Turkey to Greece at the moment. That
:12:53. > :12:57.$1200 is not going to charities, it's going to smugglers. People are
:12:58. > :13:01.paying 600 euros for a baby, for an infant. So there is a lot of money
:13:02. > :13:04.being made because of the failure to establish clear and legal routes to
:13:05. > :13:07.hope for people trapped in the Middle East, for the failure to
:13:08. > :13:11.ensure that there are organised routes for people. Frankly, this is
:13:12. > :13:14.an issue right across the world. We're in the middle of an election
:13:15. > :13:19.campaign in the United States, as you know, and there's a debate about
:13:20. > :13:22.walls here too. Walls simply in all the experience that people have,
:13:23. > :13:25.even look at the Berlin Wall frankly, walls don't work. I think
:13:26. > :13:31.it's very important to make the point that there isn't going to be a
:13:32. > :13:35.resolution in unilateral measures, whether razor wire or anything else.
:13:36. > :13:36.That's why I think they're worse than disappointing, they're
:13:37. > :13:39.perverse. David Miliband, thank you very much.
:13:40. > :13:42.At times, as we all consume the EU referendum campaign,
:13:43. > :13:45.it can feel as though we're simply intruding into a private argument
:13:46. > :13:50.So what about the other parties, the ones on the left?
:13:51. > :13:55.Nicola Sturgeon was in London making that case today.
:13:56. > :13:58.Labour is also in favour of Remain, but it has to be said,
:13:59. > :14:00.in some quarters, without much gusto.
:14:01. > :14:03.Could that be down to the ancient left-wing ambivalence
:14:04. > :14:08.In a moment, we'll ask how any decent socialist should vote
:14:09. > :14:11.in June, but first, here's our political editor,
:14:12. > :14:25.Two politicians both making the case today for the the UK to stay in the
:14:26. > :14:29.EU. But do not expect them to share the same stage. The referendum has
:14:30. > :14:35.created strange and slightly embarrassed allies. Anyone who has
:14:36. > :14:37.listened to what I have got to say and what David has to say would
:14:38. > :14:43.appreciate that we want the same outcome from different respect us.
:14:44. > :14:48.Now a Pentium first name terms and campaigning in London, Nicola
:14:49. > :14:53.Sturgeon was making DSM P case. There's nothing contradictory about
:14:54. > :14:58.independent nations recognising their interdependence, choosing to
:14:59. > :15:04.pull some 70 for mutual advantage was up on the contrary that is the
:15:05. > :15:08.way of the modern world that we live in today. The SNP can probably claim
:15:09. > :15:12.to be the most united pro-EU party. You can almost count those
:15:13. > :15:19.dissenting on the fingers of one finger pop-up step forward former
:15:20. > :15:26.SNP deputy leader Jim Sellers. One the strange things about SNP
:15:27. > :15:31.position is they're trying to retain the UK within the EU, the same EU
:15:32. > :15:36.that in the independence referendum told us to get stuffed. We would
:15:37. > :15:41.have to be put out and would have to wait till long queue to get back in.
:15:42. > :15:45.And that Spain would with their beta. So what is different if the
:15:46. > :15:51.assembly succeeds in keeping the UK in the EU next time we have the
:15:52. > :15:57.independence referendum, they will tell us to get stuffed again. There
:15:58. > :16:02.is more pro-Brexit sentiment in labour. Certainly nothing like it
:16:03. > :16:05.was in the old days. The European bureaucracy is unaccountable to
:16:06. > :16:09.anyone, powers have gone from national parliaments, they have gone
:16:10. > :16:13.to the European Commission and Council of ministers. These are
:16:14. > :16:18.serious matters. As recently as 1983, Brexit was official Labour
:16:19. > :16:24.Party policy. The turning point really was when the commission came
:16:25. > :16:29.to speak to the trade union Congress back in 1980 88. And really put
:16:30. > :16:35.forward powerfully this idea of a social Europe which guarantees
:16:36. > :16:39.workers across the European Union protections in the workplace. That
:16:40. > :16:44.is when the Labour Party started to turn and now we have the vast
:16:45. > :16:48.majority of our MPs and party members who are pro-European, not
:16:49. > :16:54.anti-European. It is true that now every single member of the Shadow
:16:55. > :17:00.Cabinet supports remaining in the EU. But in that unanimity, is there
:17:01. > :17:05.perhaps a danger of complacency? If you look at the people who voted for
:17:06. > :17:08.Jeremy Corbyn in the leadership election, over 80% of Labour Party
:17:09. > :17:17.remembers favour remaining part of the EU in the referendum. But it is
:17:18. > :17:20.not a very important issue for them, about one in six of Labour Party
:17:21. > :17:25.members say it is in their top ten issues. But with Labour Party
:17:26. > :17:29.supporters it is more mixed, around 56% support remaining in the EU
:17:30. > :17:33.there and around 30% wished to leave. All in contrast to the
:17:34. > :17:38.country generally which tends to be evenly divided. The danger for those
:17:39. > :17:44.on the left is that there supporters may not care enough about the issue
:17:45. > :17:46.to actually vote. In the 2011 referendum on the proposed changes
:17:47. > :17:53.to the Westminster voting system, labour, the Lib Dems, Plaid Cymru
:17:54. > :17:55.and the SNP all supported yes vote. But they could not convince enough
:17:56. > :18:01.of their supporters to turn out. The other side with paper far less party
:18:02. > :18:03.political support, was far more motivated them energised and they
:18:04. > :18:07.won the day. For some on the left,
:18:08. > :18:11.the EU is seen as a soft-left club For others, it is an
:18:12. > :18:21.obstacle to socialism. Let's find out the views of three
:18:22. > :18:27.representatives of the British left - former Labour Mayor of London,
:18:28. > :18:29.Ken Livingstone, the Green MP, Caroline Lucas, and the Anglican
:18:30. > :18:42.priest and commentator, Giles Fraser first, which side are
:18:43. > :18:45.you on? Brexit. I have a high doctrine at the House of Commons and
:18:46. > :18:49.for me the most important thing, you have the people here, those that
:18:50. > :18:53.they elect and they must remain close to each other. The people you
:18:54. > :18:56.elect must give power back to the people at the end of their electoral
:18:57. > :19:00.cycle. It is not for them to give that power away to someone in
:19:01. > :19:06.Brussels or some distant power, power must remain close to the
:19:07. > :19:10.people who legitimised it. I thought you were going to say it is like a
:19:11. > :19:16.neoliberal club. There are arguments on both sides. If it becomes that,
:19:17. > :19:23.and it could easily become a neoliberal club with the changes,
:19:24. > :19:26.the potential trade deal with the US, if that happens that will be
:19:27. > :19:32.imposed on us. My fundamental argument is of democracy. And so was
:19:33. > :19:35.my argument but it leads me to the opposite conclusion! He speaks about
:19:36. > :19:40.democracy when it comes to the people to re-elect but the irony is
:19:41. > :19:44.European elections are the one set of elections in the UK that are
:19:45. > :19:51.under proportional representation. A more democratic system. But the
:19:52. > :19:56.issue of the transatlantic trade agreement, those people who think
:19:57. > :20:01.we're going to get a softer, nicer trade policy by withdrawing from the
:20:02. > :20:05.EU and leading to let said David Cameron, are in cloud cuckoo land.
:20:06. > :20:11.David Cameron is the cheer leader, the strongest supporter of that. If
:20:12. > :20:18.we withdraw from the EU he will put that into bilateral agreements with
:20:19. > :20:20.the US. Right now in the U there are 3 million people who signed a
:20:21. > :20:26.petition against this and the European Parliament is now... Just
:20:27. > :20:34.aren't about specific question. Tony Benn once said, better about
:20:35. > :20:42.government then a good king. A slightly agree with that. Whatever
:20:43. > :20:45.the weight goes, for me the issue of democracy so fundamental. The
:20:46. > :20:55.transatlantic trade agreement could go either way. Ken, with Perugia in
:20:56. > :21:02.the middle, as you wished. It is a horrendous bureaucracy. You need to
:21:03. > :21:09.get rid of that layers of bureaucracy. The problem that we
:21:10. > :21:12.face is since the collapse of the Soviet Union, two thirds of the
:21:13. > :21:17.world economy is in America, Europe and China. If we come out we will
:21:18. > :21:20.have no real influence outside that. I also think that two years
:21:21. > :21:26.negotiating our way out, who will invest in the UK. Look at the
:21:27. > :21:32.situation, if you're an American car firm, you pay a 10% tariff selling
:21:33. > :21:36.cars in Europe. We do not want to be caught by that. The only way we
:21:37. > :21:44.could be excluded for that is to accept free movement, exactly the
:21:45. > :21:48.issue being used. None of you really love the EU in its current form. You
:21:49. > :21:53.want to change it, you do not like it. I want to make it more
:21:54. > :21:56.democratic, yes. But I want to make the House of Commons more
:21:57. > :22:00.democratic. It does not mean I want to walk away from it. But it is a
:22:01. > :22:10.neoliberal club to some degree. Because most governments in the EU
:22:11. > :22:15.now are right wing governments. In the 1990s there was a wonderful
:22:16. > :22:19.moment when the EU 15 had a majority of environment ministers from the
:22:20. > :22:22.Green Party. There were some wonderful environmental policy that
:22:23. > :22:28.came from that. If you put right wing victory into it that is what
:22:29. > :22:31.you will get out of the. But it does not undermine the importance of
:22:32. > :22:34.working together on the issues we face. Climate change,
:22:35. > :22:38.working together on the issues we cannot tackle that as a single
:22:39. > :22:42.country are own. It still feels like a dream. Were you happy with what
:22:43. > :22:45.happened to the people of Greece earlier this year, with what was
:22:46. > :22:51.imposed on them? earlier this year, with what was
:22:52. > :22:58.has become. And it is going to get worse. Look what David Cameron is
:22:59. > :23:02.doing in Britain! I know how to get out. I know how it works in this
:23:03. > :23:07.country, it is straightforward. I quite like the first past the post
:23:08. > :23:11.system for that reason. I have a present I could vote for, not vote
:23:12. > :23:18.for, it is close to the people and I wanted to remain that way. If you
:23:19. > :23:23.lobby, you're democratically elected MEPs, they can block the
:23:24. > :23:28.transatlantic trade agreement. Why is the Labour Party that was so
:23:29. > :23:34.close to the Giles Fraser pointed you 20 years ago, moved so far from
:23:35. > :23:42.that now? If someone can show me that our economy will do better if
:23:43. > :23:47.we vote to leave, non-upbeat series economic analysis has suggested
:23:48. > :23:51.that. It will be chaotic. I believe we will be back in recession, a
:23:52. > :23:58.further collapse in investment, a disaster. Will want to make it more
:23:59. > :24:03.democratic. Remember this, if we were not in Europe, not bound by
:24:04. > :24:09.European rules on environment and workers rights, this government
:24:10. > :24:11.would have done implement the war damage. Many people in the
:24:12. > :24:15.Conservative Party do not like Europe for the same reasons, they
:24:16. > :24:20.think it is taming some of the things they would want to do here.
:24:21. > :24:25.We are all in strange company at this time! Whichever side of the
:24:26. > :24:32.debate were on. What does surprise me about your position, Giles,
:24:33. > :24:35.European story as it is to be celebrated because after centuries
:24:36. > :24:38.of warfare in Europe, countries have come together. There's something
:24:39. > :24:43.noble about trying to resolve our through discussion and debate,
:24:44. > :24:47.however bureaucratic it is. I've been a member of the European
:24:48. > :24:50.Parliament and I have seen that, but so much better than trying to solve
:24:51. > :24:55.problems with bullets and bombs. That is a noble vision and ambition
:24:56. > :25:01.are used to share but what Europe has now become... The commission had
:25:02. > :25:06.a proposal to be able to share what refugees in a fair away and stop it
:25:07. > :25:13.was individual right wing governments that through back in
:25:14. > :25:19.their face. Jeremy Corbyn prefers to be at CND rallies, do you think he
:25:20. > :25:26.will come out and that hard on this because many people say that that
:25:27. > :25:32.will be crucial. We had a meeting last week with the Labour National
:25:33. > :25:37.executive, and Central is that we mobilise all our support, led by
:25:38. > :25:41.Alan Johnson, to make sure we get our voters out to stay in. I do not
:25:42. > :25:49.want to see unemployment going up in this country. We need a proper
:25:50. > :25:52.debate on the left. You cannot just say we will mobilise our support to
:25:53. > :25:57.do this. It cannot be the Tories making the running. I think many
:25:58. > :26:02.young people watching will be watching in bemusement because to
:26:03. > :26:03.them being part of the EU is just the air that they breathe. Thank you
:26:04. > :26:05.all very much. Debates in the world of geology
:26:06. > :26:08.do not often intrude into programmes like this, but every now and then,
:26:09. > :26:11.one comes along that deserves And right now, there is literally,
:26:12. > :26:18.an epoch-making argument going on. It concerns the precise epoch
:26:19. > :26:21.that we are in: for more than 11,000 years we've been languishing
:26:22. > :26:24.in a period of geological time called the Holocene,
:26:25. > :26:27.but many geologists believe the earth has entered a new epoch -
:26:28. > :26:30.the anthropocene - The only problem is they can't
:26:31. > :26:34.agree when it started. Here's the BBC's science
:26:35. > :26:44.correspondent, Rebecca Morelle. If only it were this easy to define
:26:45. > :26:47.where one bit of the earth's Traditionally, this has been
:26:48. > :26:53.done with hindsight. Now scientists are itching
:26:54. > :26:58.to declare we're in a new epoch. But they can't agree
:26:59. > :27:01.on when it began. The group that comes out with a date
:27:02. > :27:04.gets to define time itself. Geologists love to divvy up time,
:27:05. > :27:16.and that is what they have done So from the year dot to now,
:27:17. > :27:24.4.54 billion years later, that is divided up into units
:27:25. > :27:29.of time called eons. These chapters of time mark turning
:27:30. > :27:39.points in the earth's history. But to define when each began
:27:40. > :27:45.we need some physical indicator. Evidence of a radical
:27:46. > :27:47.change across the planet. And one of these can be found here,
:27:48. > :28:01.in the Southern uplands of Scotland. Millions of years of history have
:28:02. > :28:04.left signatures in these rocks. And we're going to check
:28:05. > :28:11.out a time stamp. So we've arrived here
:28:12. > :28:13.at the Ordovician-Silurian boundary. In fact, your hand is actually
:28:14. > :28:15.sitting on the boundary. A boundary between two
:28:16. > :28:22.geological periods of time. So these rocks, these black
:28:23. > :28:24.mudstones, they were deposited When they were deposited,
:28:25. > :28:28.there were horizontal. They have been tipped up
:28:29. > :28:31.by tectonic processes. We do see a fundamental change
:28:32. > :28:34.in the animals that are preserved Over there, in those rocks,
:28:35. > :28:38.we find the fossil skeletons of animals that tell us
:28:39. > :28:41.it was in the Ordovician period of geological time,
:28:42. > :28:45.and then where your hand is, we have a sudden change
:28:46. > :28:47.in the graptolite fossil sandwich that tells us we are now
:28:48. > :28:49.in the Silurian period So it is measurable,
:28:50. > :28:53.and that is what you're looking for. It was a colossal change
:28:54. > :29:05.in the earth's atmosphere and oceans that shifted us from the Ordovician
:29:06. > :29:08.to the Silurian period, And signalled by the before
:29:09. > :29:11.and after effects on the ancient Now fast forward through several
:29:12. > :29:16.more periods, epochs and ages. Officially, we have been
:29:17. > :29:18.in the Holocene epoch But scientists now think
:29:19. > :29:25.we are in a new epoch, What we are seeing at present
:29:26. > :29:33.is that the degree of change to the earth's system,
:29:34. > :29:35.that has been conducted by humans, is as significant as some
:29:36. > :29:38.of the really major changes to the earth's system
:29:39. > :29:41.in the geological record. No one species on planet Earth has
:29:42. > :29:45.ever done that in the whole history So it is really fundamental,
:29:46. > :29:49.it is enormous change. For signs of our own involvement
:29:50. > :29:52.in history, you don't need to track through a gorge in search of tiny
:29:53. > :29:56.creatures fossilised in rock. The imprint we are leaving
:29:57. > :30:04.on the planet is big. From clearing the land to make way
:30:05. > :30:13.for buildings like this, to creating the materials, concrete,
:30:14. > :30:15.plastic, that go into them. We are shaping every
:30:16. > :30:21.aspect of our environment. But while it might seem obvious
:30:22. > :30:24.to you and I that humans are dominating the globe,
:30:25. > :30:26.geologists need to agree that the changes we are in the world
:30:27. > :30:38.are on a vast enough scale. So for the last 500 years,
:30:39. > :30:41.science has made us, individuals, feel
:30:42. > :30:43.really insignificant. We start off with the
:30:44. > :30:46.Copernicus revolution. The earth is not the centre
:30:47. > :30:51.of the universe, it is the sun. We now have cosmologists saying that
:30:52. > :30:54.actually our sun is rather small, and actually it is one of billions
:30:55. > :30:57.and billions in the universe. We then have the biologists coming
:30:58. > :31:00.in and they say, guess what? Yeah, you're not special,
:31:01. > :31:02.you're not there between You're just a smart chimpanzee
:31:03. > :31:09.with not very much hair. Now what we are saying is that
:31:10. > :31:15.humanity is a geological superpower. We are currently having the same
:31:16. > :31:18.effect as plate tectonics A consensus is is now growing
:31:19. > :31:23.that we have sufficiently secured our superpower status enough
:31:24. > :31:26.to warrant our own epoch. But that means another row
:31:27. > :31:33.is gathering momentum. When did we ditch the Holocene
:31:34. > :31:39.and welcome in the Anthropocene? Was it way back, more
:31:40. > :31:44.than 8000 years ago, when humans were lopping down
:31:45. > :31:49.forests to make way for their farms? Or was it a bit more recently,
:31:50. > :31:53.in the 15th century, when the New World met
:31:54. > :31:56.the old world, shifting plants, animals and disease
:31:57. > :31:59.around the globe? Some think the industrial
:32:00. > :32:03.Revolution is a contender, which could bring the Anthropocene's
:32:04. > :32:07.birth into the 18th century. Or is the start date much more
:32:08. > :32:12.recent, the mid-20th century, when humanity's impact on the earth
:32:13. > :32:19.reached epic proportions? What is needed is a moment in human
:32:20. > :32:22.history that leaves a strong and long lasting signal that future
:32:23. > :32:28.geologists would be able to find. Some believe the first nuclear
:32:29. > :32:33.tests offer just that. A legacy of radioactive elements
:32:34. > :32:36.that will linger far This is a really good signal
:32:37. > :32:43.that we get in the 1950s. It is something that we can
:32:44. > :32:46.recognise all around the planet. And also it is a signal
:32:47. > :32:49.that will persist, because of those
:32:50. > :32:51.radiogenic isotopes. We know it is going to last
:32:52. > :32:54.for as long as 100,000 years, so it is a very, very good signal
:32:55. > :32:57.for future geologists. Others think we need
:32:58. > :32:59.to go further back. For me, we can go a million years
:33:00. > :33:03.into the future and look back, the one thing that will always be
:33:04. > :33:08.there is how we change the evolution and the distribution
:33:09. > :33:11.of species around the planet. Ultimately the real birth
:33:12. > :33:17.of a new epoch will be It is due to go to a
:33:18. > :33:23.vote later this year. So actually saying we are in
:33:24. > :33:28.the Anthropocene epoch, and we are the control
:33:29. > :33:30.on the earth's destiny, If you've been happy in the
:33:31. > :33:40.Holocene, you may not want to be told
:33:41. > :33:44.that we are now in the Anthropocene. But just in case geologists decide
:33:45. > :33:47.that we are, happy new epoch! 12 US states, including
:33:48. > :33:51.the second biggest one, Texas, get their say
:33:52. > :33:54.in the selection of Republican and Democrat
:33:55. > :33:57.presidential candidates. And American Samoa
:33:58. > :33:59.gets its say as well. Tomorrow may not make
:34:00. > :34:04.a Clinton-Trump contest inevitable, However, it's the Republican race
:34:05. > :34:09.that has gripped us all, and the dominance of Donald Trump -
:34:10. > :34:14.a man worth $4 billion - and yet one for whom it is always
:34:15. > :34:17.difficult to tell what to take You retweeted somebody from el duce
:34:18. > :34:26.2016 a Mussolini quote. What difference does it make
:34:27. > :34:29.whether it's Mussolini It's certainly a very
:34:30. > :34:33.interesting quote. General Pershing, per shalling,
:34:34. > :34:40.did you ever hear rough, guy and they had
:34:41. > :34:43.a terrorism problem. There's a whole thing with swine
:34:44. > :34:46.and animals and pigs and you know He took the 50 terrorists
:34:47. > :34:51.and he took 50 men and dipped 50 They shot 49 of those people
:34:52. > :34:57.and the 50th person he said, you go back to your people
:34:58. > :35:06.and you tell them what happened. What's the difference between a wet
:35:07. > :35:19.racoon and Donald J Trump's hair? A wet racoon doesn't have
:35:20. > :35:25.seven billion (BLEEP)ing dollars Donald Trump sometimes one
:35:26. > :35:39.for clowning around, sometimes one with a rather more
:35:40. > :35:41.threatening message. His populism has drawn the extreme
:35:42. > :35:44.comparison to Hitler - that from a former Mexican president
:35:45. > :35:48.- and a less outlandish So everybody is grappling
:35:49. > :35:56.for an historical comparison, Ahead of all the politics tomorrow,
:35:57. > :35:59.we thought we'd talk Joining me in studio is Tom Holland,
:36:00. > :36:04.a classical historian, and from the US, Donna Murch,
:36:05. > :36:06.a history professor at Rutgers university specialising
:36:07. > :36:18.in African-American history. Good evening to you both. Focussing
:36:19. > :36:22.on US comparison, not on Hitler, for the moment at least, just where
:36:23. > :36:28.would you, who or where would you place Donald Trump? Well, you know,
:36:29. > :36:33.I think that it's hard to find a perfect historical analogy, but I
:36:34. > :36:39.think George Wallace might be the closest. He was the former governor
:36:40. > :36:45.of Alabama who ran in 19 #6r8. He was able to draw on a racist,
:36:46. > :36:50.populist platform, a significant amount of voters in the south and
:36:51. > :36:56.the mid-west. The appeal to white nationalism in a moment of perceived
:36:57. > :37:01.crisis can be compared with Trump. You have a more classical bent,
:37:02. > :37:09.haven't you? I would compare him to the emperor Nero. The reason is not
:37:10. > :37:15.just that Nero is as unpopular with Roman historians and Trump is with
:37:16. > :37:18.East Coast liberals. But Nero was a sensational hero. He was a
:37:19. > :37:25.calculated politician who reached over the heads of the elite, whom he
:37:26. > :37:31.cast as stuffed shirts, and made an enormous splash and won the
:37:32. > :37:37.admiration of the people. Nero understood if you carry things off
:37:38. > :37:42.with sufficient swagger and charisma, bad publicity is always
:37:43. > :37:52.going to win out for you. Was Nero a populist? Was that a word you'd
:37:53. > :37:56.ascribe to him? He was a popularis. You had to be rich, you could be
:37:57. > :38:00.aristocratic but you played to the public gallery. That's what Nero
:38:01. > :38:05.did. He killed his mother. You'd think that would be terminal even
:38:06. > :38:10.for the career of a Roman emperor, but Nero made a splash of it. He
:38:11. > :38:16.actually appeared on stage rather like Trump in the wrestling, playing
:38:17. > :38:22.the role of a famed midge logical matricide. This man recognise today
:38:23. > :38:25.he got out there and played the role of the big man, that way he could
:38:26. > :38:29.win the hearts and minds of people. That sounds like a more benevolent
:38:30. > :38:35.picture than the one you offered Donna. George Wallace, I think you
:38:36. > :38:40.used the word populist and racist, I mean those are both words you would
:38:41. > :38:44.apply to Donald Trump? Yes, especially racist. The problem with
:38:45. > :38:49.the term populism is that it's so general. That encompasses many
:38:50. > :38:54.things, including economic redistribution, which trump does not
:38:55. > :38:57.support. Trump built his campaign on declaring that Mexicans were rapists
:38:58. > :39:05.and that we need a separation wall between the US and Mexico, that
:39:06. > :39:09.should be paid for by Vicente Fox. He further exacerbated this and it
:39:10. > :39:13.inacrosses his popularity by saying all Muslims should wear ID badges.
:39:14. > :39:17.It's that kind much rhetoric that's drawn the compare sons being made
:39:18. > :39:24.with Hitler. It's really about racively. -- racism. The Hitler
:39:25. > :39:30.comparison is hysterical, isn't it? Or do you think there is perhaps a
:39:31. > :39:38.germ of insight in there? I would say that the fact that people are
:39:39. > :39:44.choosing such a bombbastic comparison is how the people feel in
:39:45. > :39:50.the United States. He's really up ended the raurt Republican Party. --
:39:51. > :39:54.Republican Party. He's found a huge national base amongst white,
:39:55. > :39:58.working-class voters. People are saying that to signify the sense of
:39:59. > :40:01.crisis. Is it helpful to make comparison to Hitler? By and large
:40:02. > :40:06.it's not helpful at all. In fact, I think it's pernicious. For instance,
:40:07. > :40:12.comparisons of Saddam Hussein to Hitler were crucial in influencing
:40:13. > :40:16.the move to war in Iraq. I think that in Trump's case there's no need
:40:17. > :40:21.to look to European traditions to trace his roots. I think that you
:40:22. > :40:26.can look back to the 19th searchingery American history and
:40:27. > :40:34.find all kinds of echoes. If you look at President Pole, elected in
:40:35. > :40:40.1845. He didn't build a wall. He invaded Mexico. He annexed a huge
:40:41. > :40:45.chunk of California. If you place Trump in those traditions, the
:40:46. > :40:52.traditions of America, then he makes more sense. What about populism in
:40:53. > :40:55.American history? You've had, I take the George Wallace comparison, but
:40:56. > :41:01.there are others in the 1930s, he wasn't Hitler, but there was a chap
:41:02. > :41:09.huey Long who was an extraordinarily successful for a short period of
:41:10. > :41:13.time. You had Huey Long, but he's so different from Trump. He comes from
:41:14. > :41:19.a wealthy family. His father supporting the clan wand as a big
:41:20. > :41:22.real estate owner. Long supported a populist platform, but he was
:41:23. > :41:37.involved in infrastructure building in Louisiana. Trump is almost a
:41:38. > :41:41.blend, blended with George Wallace bulletineded with Silvio Berlusconi.
:41:42. > :41:46.It is his show on celebrity apprentice that launched his brand.
:41:47. > :41:51.He has a history of all kinds of racist proclamations going back to
:41:52. > :41:55.the 80s, when he called of bringing back the death penalty with the
:41:56. > :42:01.police. Thank you both. It is super Tuesday tomorrow. I'm
:42:02. > :42:05.back, Emily with be in the States. Till then, have a very good night.