:00:08. > :00:14.European Central Bank pulls out all the stops to turn around the
:00:15. > :00:18.Eurozone, how is Britain placed? If our economy falters, how
:00:19. > :00:23.well-equipped is the Chancellor to meet his own debt targets? With the
:00:24. > :00:28.UK budget due next week, we will be asking just how the economy is
:00:29. > :00:31.bearing up. Becky Watts, the Bristol teenager, murdered by her own
:00:32. > :00:36.stepbrother. Tonight, we speak to her father in the first interview
:00:37. > :00:45.since his harrowing memoir. Do you still want him dead? If they were
:00:46. > :00:49.going to hang him, I would pull the lever so no one else would have to
:00:50. > :00:54.carry that guilt. The government is under increasing pressure over arms
:00:55. > :00:58.sales to Saudi Arabia. British weapons being used to kill civilians
:00:59. > :01:02.in Yemen and is the British government breaking the law? And the
:01:03. > :01:11.60 year mystery of the missing France is broken -- Wickham nude
:01:12. > :01:18.solved and seen for the first time on British television. Good evening.
:01:19. > :01:20.The European Central Bank sent a clear signal today
:01:21. > :01:23.that it is somewhat perturbed by the failure of the Eurozone
:01:24. > :01:26.to deliver growth, and in an attempt to spark it, cut all three
:01:27. > :01:28.of its interest rates, setting a lending rate to zero
:01:29. > :01:30.interest, and droppping the deposit rate further into
:01:31. > :01:35.The ECB also annouced a bond-buying spree,
:01:36. > :01:41.All this is in turn likely to play into George Osborne's Budget
:01:42. > :01:43.calculations next Wednesday with UK economic growth hardly
:01:44. > :01:52.Here's our Policy Editor Chris Cook whose had his calculator out.
:01:53. > :01:56.How much room is there in George Osborne's red box?
:01:57. > :02:00.The bad news for the Chancellor is that economists
:02:01. > :02:03.expect he's not going to have a lot of space for rabbits.
:02:04. > :02:07.Indeed, today, the European Central Bank launched a massive
:02:08. > :02:09.package of measures, because the European economy,
:02:10. > :02:13.our trading doorstep, is in serious trouble.
:02:14. > :02:14.The Chancellor himself issued some warnings,
:02:15. > :02:22.The economy is smaller than we thought, in Britain.
:02:23. > :02:24.We also know that global risks are growing and
:02:25. > :02:33.Britain is not immune to those things.
:02:34. > :02:35.George Osborne sought to trap the Labour Party by setting
:02:36. > :02:44.The idea was to show up their profligacy
:02:45. > :02:45.to contrast with his iron Chancellorship.
:02:46. > :02:48.The slight problem is he may be caught in his own trap.
:02:49. > :02:51.For example, the first of those fiscal rules stated that in each
:02:52. > :02:54.year of this Parliament, the size of our national debt should
:02:55. > :02:56.grow more slowly than the size of our economy.
:02:57. > :02:59.Put another way, the national debt, measured as a share of GDP,
:03:00. > :03:02.should fall in each year of this Parliament.
:03:03. > :03:05.Now, looking at this graph of national debt as a share of GDP,
:03:06. > :03:08.you can see how, as the financial crisis hit, our national
:03:09. > :03:11.It shoots up, doubling from under 40%
:03:12. > :03:16.Mr Osborne's plan is that in the years ahead, we will start
:03:17. > :03:18.chiselling away at that, by having our economy
:03:19. > :03:23.This man was a forecaster at the Office for Budget
:03:24. > :03:28.He was a senior economist who worked out the Chancellor's room
:03:29. > :03:30.for manoeuvre and he is still quite close to the spreadsheets.
:03:31. > :03:35.The government is quite likely to miss its fiscal rules.
:03:36. > :03:37.The reason is, it only ever had a very small margin, anyway.
:03:38. > :03:40.What it needed was for debt to rise less
:03:41. > :03:50.It looks like there is bad news on both fronts.
:03:51. > :03:54.It looks like there is a little more borrowing and GDP growth to be quite
:03:55. > :03:58.That small margin of falling in the debt ratio is looking
:03:59. > :04:04.George Osborne's second fiscal rule state
:04:05. > :04:06.that in the year 2019-2020, the state should take more in taxes
:04:07. > :04:10.In short, it should run a fiscal surplus.
:04:11. > :04:15.That is a surprisingly rare event in fiscal history.
:04:16. > :04:18.His problem is, though, that the single-most important
:04:19. > :04:20.determinate of whether he will make that target is economic growth.
:04:21. > :04:27.That is something which isn't going his way.
:04:28. > :04:31.Developments since the Autumn Statement probably moved slightly
:04:32. > :04:40.The bad news has probably been slightly larger
:04:41. > :04:44.That means he may be facing either a smaller surplus in 2019 Ball
:04:45. > :04:48.That means he may be facing either a smaller surplus in 2019 or perhaps
:04:49. > :04:50.having the package of measures in the budget that he would
:04:51. > :04:54.Economic modellers would disagree on how far we can expect
:04:55. > :04:57.economic activity to fall short to how far the Chancellor must move.
:04:58. > :05:00.We are going into 2016 with what looks like
:05:01. > :05:09.The good news for the Chancellor is that some of that will be made up
:05:10. > :05:11.by lower interest rates with the Bank of England
:05:12. > :05:16.That means the cost of borrowing is lower and the Government
:05:17. > :05:21.It could roughly offset borrowing this year.
:05:22. > :05:23.But looking ahead, things don't look quite so good.
:05:24. > :05:25.The economy is likely to grow bit more
:05:26. > :05:30.slowly, fewer tax receipts flowing around for the Chancellor to spend.
:05:31. > :05:33.That could leave another ?5,000,000- ?10 billion black hole in the public
:05:34. > :05:36.He may feel he needs to correct that.
:05:37. > :05:38.It's important to also consider the shadow of the European
:05:39. > :05:42.Remember, first of all, that the Chancellor would
:05:43. > :05:46.like you to vote for the In Campaign and that he won't want you to be
:05:47. > :05:48.irritated with him in the next few months.
:05:49. > :05:50.That might make him less radical than he
:05:51. > :05:53.Remember, also, that the Chancellor will have less
:05:54. > :05:56.support from his backbenchers, half of whom would like him to lose
:05:57. > :06:01.the European referendum, than he otherwise might.
:06:02. > :06:04.Both of these things hint that he might be more timid
:06:05. > :06:10.in this budget than he otherwise might be.
:06:11. > :06:12.The Chancellor's fiscal mandate requires him to have a surplus
:06:13. > :06:15.in 2019-2020, obviously we are only now in the budget of 2016.
:06:16. > :06:17.There are another five fiscal statements between now
:06:18. > :06:23.and when he has to achieve his surplus target.
:06:24. > :06:30.It could be that bigger, more controversial decisions or more
:06:31. > :06:33.significant tax increases or spending cuts get deferred
:06:34. > :06:35.until after the referendum on membership of the EU.
:06:36. > :06:37.In short, the Chancellor may well break a fiscal
:06:38. > :06:39.rule this year, but he has crashed through targets before.
:06:40. > :06:42.In the long term, though, that red box could get
:06:43. > :06:53.What's the most important thing we can take away from it?
:06:54. > :07:00.The thing to dwell on is just how big they went today, they didn't
:07:01. > :07:06.just increase the size of their cue the programme. They attempt to get
:07:07. > :07:12.liquidity cash into the banks, they did not just increase it in size but
:07:13. > :07:16.scope. Did they move into buying corporate bonds? So that people who
:07:17. > :07:21.are not helped in the traditional monetary transmission mechanism can
:07:22. > :07:25.be helped another way. It is worth dwelling on the fact that they will
:07:26. > :07:30.effectively be paying banks to lend out of money. They are ready pulling
:07:31. > :07:35.all the levers they can find. This is a bank in Frankfurt, this is not
:07:36. > :07:39.an institutionally rebellious place. That is how bad things are in
:07:40. > :07:40.Europe, they are really worried about them in Munich continent.
:07:41. > :07:43.Thank you. Joining me now from Paris
:07:44. > :07:48.is Stephanie Flanders, JP Morgan Asset Management's chief
:07:49. > :07:50.market strategist for Britain and Europe and here in the studio
:07:51. > :07:59.Allister Heath deputy editor Good evening, we will talk of next
:08:00. > :08:04.week's budget in a moment. Stephanie, what do you make of the
:08:05. > :08:12.ECB move? Back to growth in Britain and America. Europe still in a slump
:08:13. > :08:16.and ECB steadfast refusal to do anything over the last eight years.
:08:17. > :08:21.It was behind the curve for quite a long time and ironically it is
:08:22. > :08:26.ending up having to innovate and go further than either the UK or the US
:08:27. > :08:29.had to do. Part of what happened today was they had to respond to
:08:30. > :08:33.these people who had been saying in the markets in the last few months
:08:34. > :08:37.that we ran out of things Central banks can do, we have seen the bank
:08:38. > :08:41.of Japan cut interest rates into negative territory and that didn't
:08:42. > :08:45.seem to have a positive effect on confidence. Can the ECB do anything
:08:46. > :08:50.about the fact that inflation is heading lower in Europe and growth
:08:51. > :08:59.is not very strong? They had to show they can do lots of different things
:09:00. > :09:01.while also bringing in lots of technical ways that I won't get into
:09:02. > :09:03.to avoid the downsides of those negative rates. Chris mentioned you
:09:04. > :09:07.have an odd situation where they will pay banks to borrow from them.
:09:08. > :09:12.It shows how weird and dysfunctional we have got in terms of central bank
:09:13. > :09:15.policy. One of the other thing is responding to was the forecast
:09:16. > :09:20.looking worse. They are not expecting inflation to be more than
:09:21. > :09:25.0.1% at the end of this year. They will not get anywhere near their
:09:26. > :09:29.targets. They had to act. They are reaching their limits of what the
:09:30. > :09:32.central bank can do. If this is the limit, it has come pretty quickly
:09:33. > :09:37.after having done pretty well nothing. Is monetary policy enough?
:09:38. > :09:41.I do think so. I am worried about the fact that 80 years after the
:09:42. > :09:45.start of the financial crisis, the great recession, central banks are
:09:46. > :09:50.still having to do that, pump cash into the economy, cut interest rates
:09:51. > :09:54.to zero. It is worrying. It is not just about central banks,
:09:55. > :09:59.governments need to deregulate and kick-start the European economies. A
:10:00. > :10:03.big structural change? They need to tear up the old European model which
:10:04. > :10:07.still hasn't changed. Countries like Italy are stuck in this 15 year long
:10:08. > :10:12.slump. Countries like France need to do much more than what they are
:10:13. > :10:15.currently doing. We need far more deregulation and market-based
:10:16. > :10:23.reforms and more incentives into the system from which we can create an
:10:24. > :10:28.innovate. But not borrowing? No. The solution is not borrowing more.
:10:29. > :10:31.Stephanie, what about government spending more on infrastructure?
:10:32. > :10:37.Germany, for example, Germany holds onto its money tightly. Interesting
:10:38. > :10:40.because you have some parts of the Eurozone probably don't have much
:10:41. > :10:45.scope to borrow a lot more but if you took the Eurozone as a country
:10:46. > :10:49.on average, you would say that fiscal policy was a bit tight given
:10:50. > :10:52.how weak the economy is. It is partly a reflection of the
:10:53. > :10:57.constraints on the Eurozone that they can't impose a kind of optimal
:10:58. > :11:02.Eurozone fiscal policy. We can only look to individual countries. Marry
:11:03. > :11:09.a drag it, the president of the European Central Bank signalled he
:11:10. > :11:15.wanted more policies. Let's turn to the budget next week. It is almost a
:11:16. > :11:19.phoney budget, have you ever imagined anything like it? It will
:11:20. > :11:23.be incredibly weird. This is the kind of budget where chances ought
:11:24. > :11:28.to be taking drastic action, making radical reform is not necessarily
:11:29. > :11:33.popular. But in fact, I can't see the Chancellor doing any of that. He
:11:34. > :11:37.is stuck because growth has slowed. I still think the UK economy is
:11:38. > :11:42.growing, we are not in recession or about to tip into recession but we
:11:43. > :11:45.are growing less quickly than he had hoped for. Fewer tax receipts, quite
:11:46. > :11:52.a few problems in the years ahead. What does he have to do? Not much he
:11:53. > :11:58.can sell, worries about fuel duty. Warriors from his backbenchers. He
:11:59. > :12:04.is not going to reform pensions. I think that is good. He could pick up
:12:05. > :12:09.taxes but that is dangerous -- put up taxes. That is dangerous right
:12:10. > :12:13.now. He needs more growth. You don't get more growth by increasing taxes.
:12:14. > :12:18.As Chris was pointing out, Stephanie, it is this obsession
:12:19. > :12:22.about targets, getting rid of the deficit, making sure debt as a
:12:23. > :12:28.percentage of GDP not falls over the long-term but every year, what is
:12:29. > :12:32.the point of sticking to this? Particular target for having the
:12:33. > :12:35.debt ratio fall over the next few years does seem, to a lot of people,
:12:36. > :12:41.when it was announced, pretty arbitrary. Also, subject to pretty
:12:42. > :12:47.big forecasting errors, which we may see next week. It also encourages
:12:48. > :12:50.him to do fancy techniques just at the last minute that properly don't
:12:51. > :12:53.make much economic sense just to meet that rule. It rather goes
:12:54. > :12:57.against what he said when he introduced these things that he did
:12:58. > :13:00.not want to go back to the Gordon Brown creative approach to fiscal
:13:01. > :13:06.rules. He wanted to have simple things that could be easily measured
:13:07. > :13:10.and understood. You feel like we may actually get quite a lot of fancy
:13:11. > :13:14.engineering to make sure he means what is a bit of a silly and
:13:15. > :13:17.arbitrary rule. I do think it is silly or arbitrary, the Chancellor
:13:18. > :13:22.is right to want to balance the budget in a few years' time. He is
:13:23. > :13:25.right for tighter fiscal policy but the problem is he has not gone far
:13:26. > :13:29.enough and it is not working. The deficit will be too high and that
:13:30. > :13:35.will be a problem because the Chancellor's legacy is meant to be
:13:36. > :13:38.about fixing the public finances. He needs to do that, he needs to do
:13:39. > :13:40.more. Thank you both very much indeed.
:13:41. > :13:43.The murder of your child is unimaginable, but when that
:13:44. > :13:46.murder is committed by your wife's son, whom you have helped to raise
:13:47. > :13:48.and called your son, the layers of trauma are never ending.
:13:49. > :13:51.In Bristol, on 19th February last year, 16-year-old Becky Watts
:13:52. > :13:56.was killed and then subsequently dismembered by her 28-year-old
:13:57. > :13:58.stepbrother Nathan Matthews, aided by his 21-year-old partner,
:13:59. > :14:05.Becky's father Darren was, and still is married to Nathan's mother Anji.
:14:06. > :14:07.They have been together for more than 15 years.
:14:08. > :14:18.Nathan Matthews admitted manslaughter, but not murder,
:14:19. > :14:21.has never apologised and, locked away
:14:22. > :14:23.for 33 years, he has never fully explained
:14:24. > :14:27.While Nathan and Shauna sat at Darren and Anji's house
:14:28. > :14:30.with other relatives and friends, waiting for news of Becky,
:14:31. > :14:33.she was, in fact, dead in the boot of his car, outside.
:14:34. > :14:36.Now, Darren Galsworthy has written a book in which he writes
:14:37. > :14:39.about the guilt he feels at not seeing the signs that
:14:40. > :14:41.in his family unit, something was going badly wrong.
:14:42. > :14:43.I spoke to him today in his first television interview
:14:44. > :15:05.She had a wicked sense of humour. You and Anji were putting your
:15:06. > :15:06.family together as many families are now?
:15:07. > :15:11.It was quite strange how it came about, actually.
:15:12. > :15:14.Regardless of how me and Becky's mother was getting on,
:15:15. > :15:21.I would have them at least three nights a week, every week.
:15:22. > :15:32.When things started to go a bit pear shaped...
:15:33. > :15:44.How did your relationship with Nathan develop?
:15:45. > :15:49.He didn't want anyone interfering with him and his mother.
:15:50. > :15:56.The stage where you and Anji got together, Nathan was 12,
:15:57. > :16:04.Becky was two, suddenly Anji wasn't all his?
:16:05. > :16:07.How did he respond towards the other children?
:16:08. > :16:12.Just went straight up into the bedroom.
:16:13. > :16:22.When he was 19, he came to the house with girls and a car,
:16:23. > :16:25.I thought it was one of his many pranks.
:16:26. > :16:30.He had these young girls, they didn't look any more than 12.
:16:31. > :16:47.I said, "what are you doing Nathan, I don't want them to get past
:16:48. > :16:50.the gate, let alone get into the house.
:16:51. > :17:01.Take them back to wherever you found them".
:17:02. > :17:04.whether it is the parents or whatever.
:17:05. > :17:10.Do you wish now that you had gone further with that?
:17:11. > :17:17.Do you think, looking back on that, there were warning signals?
:17:18. > :17:20.In hindsight, there was a lot of what
:17:21. > :17:34.I have been beating myself up for over a year now.
:17:35. > :17:41.What happened when she became anorexic?
:17:42. > :17:45.It was a really difficult period for us.
:17:46. > :17:59.Sometimes she could not even get up the stairs,
:18:00. > :18:03.How was Nathan's attitude towards her anorexia?
:18:04. > :18:14.When she said, to you I think, Dad, you would not be able to protect me
:18:15. > :18:23.Yes, she did say I was an old fogey and I wouldn't be physically able
:18:24. > :18:26.to stop him and all that sort of thing.
:18:27. > :18:33.Do you think now she was trying to tell you something?
:18:34. > :18:35.When Becky told you something, she told you something.
:18:36. > :18:39.There was no second-guessing or anything like that.
:18:40. > :18:42.If she told to something, you were told.
:18:43. > :18:47.In 2008, when Nathan was 21, he brought
:18:48. > :18:53.Shauna home, she was, I gather was only 15?
:18:54. > :18:55.Yeah, he tried telling me she was 19.
:18:56. > :18:58.I said, "I wasn't born yesterday, son.
:18:59. > :19:06.I am not having someone like that in this house."
:19:07. > :19:10.Don't forget, we fought hard to get our kids out of care.
:19:11. > :19:13.We were not only fighting my ex, we were
:19:14. > :19:20.It sounds like at that stage your relationship
:19:21. > :19:22.with Nathan had become quite difficult?
:19:23. > :19:41.He pushed me beyond what I considered to be a prank.
:19:42. > :19:43.But he was in the house because his mother was Anji?
:19:44. > :19:57.When it became clear that she was missing and people were coming to
:19:58. > :20:03.your house, Nathan and Shauna were also in the house with you?
:20:04. > :20:14.But when, I think it was the family liaison officer,
:20:15. > :20:18.said to you there were questions, you were disbelieving, weren't you?
:20:19. > :20:28.Nine times out of ten it is someone they know.
:20:29. > :20:32.And now it turned out that Nathan and Shauna were in the house and in
:20:33. > :20:41.Yes, 12 feet away from where I was sat, her body was in the back
:20:42. > :20:51.And so they ordered a Chinese takeaway?
:20:52. > :20:57.In the book you say that in court you heard the counsel say that two
:20:58. > :20:59.years earlier Becky had told a friend that Nathan had described
:21:00. > :21:02.in graphic detail how he planned to kill her.
:21:03. > :21:08.Yes, that was the first we heard of it, in the court.
:21:09. > :21:12.I think what I am struggling to understand is,
:21:13. > :21:14.it would have been terrifying, because he apparently
:21:15. > :21:16.told her several times in graphic detail...
:21:17. > :21:20.Yeah, I didn't understand why she didn't come to us.
:21:21. > :21:34.You and Anji are parents to both the murdered and the murderer.
:21:35. > :21:36.Do you think ever of Nathan now as your son?
:21:37. > :21:41."People often ask me how I feel about Nathan after what he did.
:21:42. > :21:51.Of course, I still love him, he is my son.
:21:52. > :21:53.When you're a mother, you cannot ignore that unconditional
:21:54. > :21:56.love for your children, no matter what they do."
:21:57. > :21:59.How do you deal with Anji's continuing love for Nathan?
:22:00. > :22:01.It is a bit of a sore subject for me.
:22:02. > :22:10.I understand that unconditional love for an infant is fine,
:22:11. > :22:14.but not when they have turned into a monster.
:22:15. > :22:18.I just can't get my head around that.
:22:19. > :22:23.If it was Danny who was the monster, I would have real problems showing
:22:24. > :22:35.I would find that very difficult after something
:22:36. > :22:43.I would, if they were going to hang him, I would pull the lever,
:22:44. > :22:46.so no one else would have to carry that guilt.
:22:47. > :22:55.Since Saudi Arabia entered the conflict in Yemen a year ago
:22:56. > :22:58.with air strikes, there have been repeated calls for Britain
:22:59. > :23:00.to stop selling weapons, including jets and precision bombs,
:23:01. > :23:02.to the Saudis until allegations of war crimes
:23:03. > :23:10.The UN estimates that some 2,800 civilians have been killed.
:23:11. > :23:13.Newsnight has learned that lawyers for Campaign Against The Arms Trade
:23:14. > :23:15.have now begun legal proceedings against
:23:16. > :23:18.the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.
:23:19. > :23:25.Gabriel Gatehouse is here with the details.
:23:26. > :23:31.Gabriel, you have followed this story and broken this story on many
:23:32. > :23:40.occasions in different ways. What are they calling for? Lead a rate of
:23:41. > :23:47.the government back in November about the sale of arms to Yemen.
:23:48. > :23:52.They have now begun formal legal proceedings. They are seeking a
:23:53. > :23:55.judicial review for the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills'
:23:56. > :24:00.decision to license and export arms to Saudi Arabia. The UK arms
:24:01. > :24:06.exporting criteria safe arms must not be exported if there is a clear
:24:07. > :24:16.risk that the equipment might be used in violation of international
:24:17. > :24:20.humanitarian law. The lawyers say there is a wealth of building up
:24:21. > :24:22.evidence of that from UN panels of experts who talk about widespread
:24:23. > :24:24.systematic attacks was Williams, schools, hospitals, other
:24:25. > :24:29.organisations like Human Rights Watch, and our own reporting from a
:24:30. > :24:33.bottling plant which was struck in Yemen last year. A judge will rule
:24:34. > :24:37.on whether the UK is breaking its own laws essentially, and if it
:24:38. > :24:43.decides that, the lawyers will ask for a prohibition order to prevent
:24:44. > :24:49.them from selling weapons while the secretary of state reviews this. The
:24:50. > :24:53.lawyers say the UK has failed to call for an investigation. That is
:24:54. > :24:56.not quite true. This is what Philip Hammond said Newsnight in November.
:24:57. > :24:59.The Saudis deny that there have been any breaches of international
:25:00. > :25:02.Obviously, that denial alone is not enough.
:25:03. > :25:07.We need to see proper investigations.
:25:08. > :25:15.Now, Philip Hammond has not repeated that assertion in that way since.
:25:16. > :25:19.The Saudis have since launched an investigation, but the critics will
:25:20. > :25:24.say you cannot really investigate yourself on these matters. But
:25:25. > :25:28.Parliament is acting now? Yes, another thing that is happening, the
:25:29. > :25:32.Commons committee on arms export control has launched an enquiry into
:25:33. > :25:37.the use of British arms in Yemen. They will be asking for submissions
:25:38. > :25:39.from all sides. They will be getting the kinds of arguments that we have
:25:40. > :25:56.heard, that we see the lawyers talking about,
:25:57. > :25:58.Human Rights Watch etc. They will also be hearing from the other side,
:25:59. > :26:00.the fact that Saudi Arabia is considered an integral part of
:26:01. > :26:02.security policy, and of course, arms sales to Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia
:26:03. > :26:07.is Britain's biggest customer for arms sales, ?2.8 billion in sales
:26:08. > :26:09.since the war in Yemen began. The fact is those sales are
:26:10. > :26:14.significantly up since that happened. What is the government
:26:15. > :26:19.saying now? The government says it will not comment on ongoing legal
:26:20. > :26:23.action. It says it supports the work of the committee, it has one of the
:26:24. > :26:28.most robust arms-control regimes in the world. The government is
:26:29. > :26:33.satisfied that existing licences for Saudi Arabia are compliant with the
:26:34. > :26:40.UK licensing criteria. We will see a judge rule on it now. Thank you.
:26:41. > :26:44.When the arguments for remaining or leaving the EU are laid out over
:26:45. > :26:45.the coming weeks who will you trust?
:26:46. > :26:51.Today, Stephen Hawking led 150 Royal Society scientists
:26:52. > :26:56.In a letter to the Times they argued that leaving could be a disaster
:26:57. > :26:58.for science, pointing to the recruitment of researchers
:26:59. > :27:02.We are, the scientists said, "a net receiver of brains,"
:27:03. > :27:04.and they went on, "We take more than ?2 billion more
:27:05. > :27:07.in research funds than we give to other EU members."
:27:08. > :27:09.But that claim was disputed by the grouping
:27:10. > :27:12.Scientists For Britain who insist we put far more in than we take out.
:27:13. > :27:15.Joining me now is Angus Dalgleish, professor of Oncology
:27:16. > :27:22.at St George's Hospital in London, and Khuloud Al-Jamal,
:27:23. > :27:29.Associate Professor of Nanomedicine at King's College London.
:27:30. > :27:36.Angus Dalgleish brings Britain is better out of the EU and Khuloud
:27:37. > :27:42.Al-Jamal things Britain is better remaining in the EU. First of all,
:27:43. > :27:48.Professor Dalglish, scientists within the EU greatly increase the
:27:49. > :27:51.level of EU science as a whole, isn't that true? I cannot do is
:27:52. > :27:54.agree with that, they probably do bet you do not need to be in the
:27:55. > :28:03.European Union for that to be the case. What has been suggested is
:28:04. > :28:07.scientists have always been involved in international cooperation, Seo
:28:08. > :28:13.membership of the EU per se is not what drives International
:28:14. > :28:17.cooperation? I think it enriches it in a way, because we have reached a
:28:18. > :28:24.state where we have science without Borders, we can send our students
:28:25. > :28:28.over there, we can receive students and this is something which cannot
:28:29. > :28:32.always be counted financially. The amount of intellectual input we have
:28:33. > :28:40.into science cannot be substituted or the same if we are out of the EU.
:28:41. > :28:45.If it was a case of leave, not remain, those borders would be back
:28:46. > :28:51.up again? Identical we with that at all. The first thing I would like to
:28:52. > :28:55.say is leading the EU is not about leaving science. It has been
:28:56. > :29:01.misconstrued by the scientists thinking the EU is just a vehicle
:29:02. > :29:04.for science and funding. It is a political union organisation, and it
:29:05. > :29:09.is over and above that, and we do not need to be in that political
:29:10. > :29:13.organisation in order to do science. I would just like to challenge the
:29:14. > :29:17.fact that has been bandied about and was repeated by the scientists in
:29:18. > :29:24.the letter, that we get slightly more back than we put in. I am not
:29:25. > :29:27.going to dispute that, and that is an competitive grants, absolutely.
:29:28. > :29:31.It's convenient lever gets there is an infrastructure fund where we only
:29:32. > :29:36.get 2 billion back out of 54 billion. If you add it up we put far
:29:37. > :29:41.more in than we out. I wonder if you would agree that because of our
:29:42. > :29:47.close relationship with the EU, sometimes it would be perhaps easier
:29:48. > :29:51.to seek an alliance with scientists there, because of the rules which
:29:52. > :29:55.govern and funding, rather than take a risk of going further which might
:29:56. > :30:01.deliver slightly better outcomes or maybe not, but we tend to stay
:30:02. > :30:05.within the boundary because it is easier?
:30:06. > :30:12.There has been a 50% increase in what we produce if we do research on
:30:13. > :30:18.an EU level compared with locally. The amount of impact we get is much
:30:19. > :30:23.higher. We would like to strive as being outstanding, not only within
:30:24. > :30:27.the EU level, but globally. We may lose this if we are out of the EU
:30:28. > :30:33.because there might not be the same interest as now of people coming to
:30:34. > :30:36.the EU. That has to be part of the scaremongering, if we leave the EU
:30:37. > :30:41.it will be a disaster and funding will disappear. It is our own
:30:42. > :30:45.funding to start off with. If we left the EU, we should be
:30:46. > :30:49.responsible for our own funding. We are one of the largest trading block
:30:50. > :30:56.in the wild and we have a lead science for years. What about
:30:57. > :31:01.trialling? -- in the world. Does the EU help trialling? Different rules
:31:02. > :31:07.in and out of the EU. Clinical trials? I became a victim of the
:31:08. > :31:11.clinical trial directive. I would have been going on oblivious, like a
:31:12. > :31:17.lot of other people to the European Union if it hadn't stopped and
:31:18. > :31:20.interfered with my treatment of making bespoke vaccines for my
:31:21. > :31:24.patients. I was suddenly told that when the European directive came in
:31:25. > :31:27.I would be breaking it and I would no longer be allowed to do it. I had
:31:28. > :31:33.become a criminal over night for doing what I was doing. What was it
:31:34. > :31:37.you were doing? I was making vaccines, taking blood from
:31:38. > :31:42.patients' arms, putting the blood, but in it in a machine and getting
:31:43. > :31:48.the presenting cells and making a vaccine of the patients blood and
:31:49. > :31:53.injecting it back in. They determined that the laboratories we
:31:54. > :31:58.were doing it in no longer met Hague pharmaceutical conditions. -- no
:31:59. > :32:05.longer met big. We were stopped. It was utterly ridiculous. A big rule
:32:06. > :32:11.for big pharmacological companies. Do you think there could be
:32:12. > :32:17.reformed? This is one view of one particular type of research. If we
:32:18. > :32:20.are looking at the different research, we are looking at
:32:21. > :32:26.attracting top scientists. I was suggesting perhaps that he is a top
:32:27. > :32:31.scientist and he was restricted in what he was doing. As a supporter of
:32:32. > :32:36.the EU, can you see there needs to be change? There can be some
:32:37. > :32:41.discussions about the regulation and why this has been banded. The
:32:42. > :32:43.solution is not coming out of the EU but may be looking at other ways of
:32:44. > :32:46.solving the problem. Thank you. Cash in the Attic,
:32:47. > :32:47.going, going, gone. It's the reason Antiques Roadshow
:32:48. > :32:50.fans queue to have their heirlooms valued, the off-chance that they've
:32:51. > :32:53.had a fortune under their noses, Something similar could be
:32:54. > :32:57.about to happen in the rarefied world of fine art, as a pair
:32:58. > :33:00.of works by a little-known Irish painter,
:33:01. > :33:02.Tony O'Malley, go on sale They could fetch a respectable
:33:03. > :33:08.five-figure sum, but hidden in their frames is another,
:33:09. > :33:11.unseen work, by one of the 20th century's greatest artists,
:33:12. > :33:13.who set a world record Stephen Smith unravels
:33:14. > :33:36.the 60-year-old mystery of a missing As the art historian Rod Stewart
:33:37. > :33:43.said, every picture tells a story. But sometimes second, secret story.
:33:44. > :33:51.Take these two rather fine paintings by the late Irish Tony O'Malley on
:33:52. > :33:54.sale for up to ?30,000, the pair, at Christies in London. What if a
:33:55. > :33:59.reckless late night news show was to have them taken to a private room
:34:00. > :34:06.and taken from their frames like a pair of oysters? What Dolly lustrous
:34:07. > :34:12.pearl might we find, concealed? Very excited. Such a fascinating story,
:34:13. > :34:18.really. He is such an extraordinary artist. He was an extraordinary man.
:34:19. > :34:23.And here it is. On second thoughts, we mustn't get ahead of ourselves.
:34:24. > :34:29.We need to make a flying visit to post-war London, the seedy Soho of
:34:30. > :34:34.afternoon drinking dens and Francis Bacon, one of our greatest artists.
:34:35. > :34:43.He liked to paint on the onside of a canvas, the primed side. -- wrong
:34:44. > :34:50.side. His trip, Lucien Freud became the most expensive study at auction
:34:51. > :34:54.when it went for ?90 million. At one point in his career at Cornwall,
:34:55. > :34:56.Bacon fell out with a partner and went off in a strop, abandoning a
:34:57. > :35:09.work in progress. As you were. Seen here for the first time is that
:35:10. > :35:17.picture. Figure. Unfinished nude by Francis Bacon. Bacon left Saint I've
:35:18. > :35:20.is in a bit of a hurry, he left the board behind -- Saint Ides.
:35:21. > :35:29.He was renting a studio from the sculptor William Redgrave and his
:35:30. > :35:38.wife. It was his wife who gave Omar Ali a large board to paint on. He
:35:39. > :35:41.cut it in half. -- Tony O'Malley. These two separate boards are more
:35:42. > :35:46.consistent with the dimensions he would work on. Does it make your
:35:47. > :35:51.innards shrivel slightly to see this handwriting across a Bacon? Given
:35:52. > :35:57.what he goes for, now? It adds to the story. It is such an interesting
:35:58. > :36:03.story. The Tom Ali on the front is just as much part of the intrigue as
:36:04. > :36:07.the Bacon on the back. The owner of the bottom half got in touch with
:36:08. > :36:15.the owner of the top half. This is the first time these two works would
:36:16. > :36:19.have ever been shown to the public. One of Bacon's friends and drinking
:36:20. > :36:27.buddies was Michael Pappy at who met him as a young man in Soho. He later
:36:28. > :36:32.became his biographer. It is a very strange sketch. But, I suppose, it
:36:33. > :36:37.might be a portrait of the man he was living with at that time. I see
:36:38. > :36:41.it almost like a sort of carnival figure. Like a Venice Carnival when
:36:42. > :36:47.they had those sort of masks with the big noses. If you and I were to
:36:48. > :36:52.go through the bins at the French house and turn up all of the old
:36:53. > :36:57.beer mats, would we find Bacon Bru on the back? He avoided doing little
:36:58. > :37:01.doodles. He restricted what he let out. He only wanted to let out the
:37:02. > :37:07.pictures he really approved of. And the sketches he would have destroyed
:37:08. > :37:11.but he was also careless. It is on record that he went and bought
:37:12. > :37:18.something for a considerable amount of money at auction in order to
:37:19. > :37:22.destroy it, one of his own works. He was a ruthless self editor. The
:37:23. > :37:27.newly revealed canvas isn't being billed as a Bacon but offered as the
:37:28. > :37:31.two Tom O'Malley's on the other side. Why? As an unfinished work it
:37:32. > :37:36.is very hard to know what people would be willing to spend on it. If
:37:37. > :37:41.someone was interested in the Bacon on the reverse, who knows what
:37:42. > :37:48.people would pay for that? That is the joy of auction, we will find out
:37:49. > :37:51.on the day. Are there still Bacons hidden somewhere? Are there still
:37:52. > :37:54.traces of this extraordinary artist that have yet to surface? Good point
:37:55. > :37:58.to leave it on. Verse that spans 12 centuries
:37:59. > :38:01.is included in a new anthology of Poems That Make Grown Women Cry,
:38:02. > :38:03.a companion volume to Amnesty International's best selling
:38:04. > :38:09.Poems That Make Grown Men Cry. We leave you with Vanessa Redgrave
:38:10. > :38:12.reading from her choice, Wildred Owen's poem
:38:13. > :38:16."Strange Meeting". It seemed that out of battle
:38:17. > :38:32.I escaped Down some profound dull
:38:33. > :38:34.tunnel long since scooped Through granites which
:38:35. > :38:38.titanic wars had groined. Yet all so there encumbered sleepers
:38:39. > :38:48.groaned, Too fast in thought
:38:49. > :38:52.or death to be bestirred. Then as I probed them,
:38:53. > :38:57.one sprang up, and stared, With piteous recognition
:38:58. > :39:04.in fixed eyes, Lifting distressed
:39:05. > :39:10.hands, as if to bless. And by his smile,
:39:11. > :39:16.I knew that sullen hall. By his dead smile,
:39:17. > :39:25.I knew we stood in Hell. "I am the enemy you
:39:26. > :39:33.killed, my friend. I knew you in this dark:
:39:34. > :39:36.for sol you frowned I knew you in this dark:
:39:37. > :39:39.for so you frowned Yesterday through me
:39:40. > :39:47.as you jabbed and killed. I parried; but my hands
:39:48. > :39:54.were loath and cold.