:00:00. > :00:00.Tonight a Labour MP speaks out about the shocking intimidation
:00:00. > :00:11.designed to frighten them away from political office.
:00:12. > :00:13.In recent weeks, when I have spoken up about this issue,
:00:14. > :00:17.I felt extremely pressured to be silent on the things that I know
:00:18. > :00:20.to be true, the issues I have already raised.
:00:21. > :00:22.And, I think, in many ways, it represents the culture
:00:23. > :00:27.of our party in some ways that we need to change.
:00:28. > :00:34.We talk to some of the women making the allegations.
:00:35. > :00:35.Stuff was posted through my letterbox.
:00:36. > :00:38.When I opened it, it was a picture of the page three nude
:00:39. > :00:42.model and a picture of my head attached.
:00:43. > :00:47.suggests David Cameron's a "free rider" over Libya.
:00:48. > :01:01.Could this careless talk cost the special relationship?
:01:02. > :01:05.Can a dog tell us about why the word "Elite" is becoming the insult most
:01:06. > :01:09.So, we think Bertie here is the best creature to help us chew
:01:10. > :01:11.through Britain's latest and most troubling
:01:12. > :01:14.We'll puncture the semantics of the campaign so far
:01:15. > :01:20.musician Thurston Moore looks back at 40 years of punk rock.
:01:21. > :01:23.I want to recapture what I've found so fresh and dangerous about punk
:01:24. > :01:33.and what lessons we can learn from it today.
:01:34. > :01:38.The Labour leadership stands accused tonight of being unwilling to deal
:01:39. > :01:41.with claims of systematic misogyny and the "blocking" of Muslim women
:01:42. > :01:44.as councillors in some areas by male members of the party
:01:45. > :01:49.In a moment, an interview with a Labour MP
:01:50. > :01:53.who tells us he's felt pressured to be silent on things
:01:54. > :01:59.But first our latest report on this issue.
:02:00. > :02:01.Since Newsnight first revealed the intimidation and shaming
:02:02. > :02:04.of Muslim women in parts of the Labour Party five weeks ago,
:02:05. > :02:07.we have been told that some are actually being threatened
:02:08. > :02:11.with violence by sinister elements within their communities.
:02:12. > :02:14.by our special correspondent Katie Razzall
:02:15. > :02:20.a number of other Muslim women have contacted us,
:02:21. > :02:30.often under the cloak of anonymity for fear of reprisals.
:02:31. > :02:34.We are talking about really sinister elements.
:02:35. > :02:39.I had phone calls to say your son is five, do you want him to be six?
:02:40. > :02:42.You're doing this interview anonymously.
:02:43. > :02:55.I live in fear for myself and my family.
:02:56. > :02:58.Five weeks ago, Newsnight broadcast claims by Muslim women that Muslim
:02:59. > :03:01.men from within the Labour Party blocked them from becoming local
:03:02. > :03:09.The charity, Muslim Women's Network UK, wrote to the Labour leader,
:03:10. > :03:11.Jeremy Corbyn, demanding an inquiry into what it
:03:12. > :03:16.A month on, more troubling claims have come to light.
:03:17. > :03:19.We're talking about women actually fearing for their lives,
:03:20. > :03:24.saying we were getting harassed, threatened with violence.
:03:25. > :03:27.They are so scared, they don't want to go to the police,
:03:28. > :03:29.and don't even want to come out publicly
:03:30. > :03:36.We are calling this Asian woman Zahara.
:03:37. > :03:38.A former Labour councillor, she makes pretty startling
:03:39. > :03:41.allegations about some of her Pakistani-heritage former
:03:42. > :03:45.colleagues, who are still Labour councillors today.
:03:46. > :03:48.On one occasion, she claims the police gave councillors sexually
:03:49. > :03:51.explicit video footage to watch before making a decision
:03:52. > :03:55.about whether a local club should be shut down.
:03:56. > :03:57.The decision ultimately should have been to close
:03:58. > :04:00.the establishment down because of inappropriate behaviours
:04:01. > :04:06.between young white girls and Asian males, that
:04:07. > :04:09.were being shown in the video.
:04:10. > :04:12.I was clearly told to stop questioning by a hand gesture
:04:13. > :04:15.and a nudge by senior male councillors that were Asian,
:04:16. > :04:26.It was a very prominent Asian businessmen that supports us.
:04:27. > :04:32.I agree, it is very serious, but I think it is
:04:33. > :04:37.Zahara also says those same councillors regularly
:04:38. > :04:41.persuaded Asian women suffering domestic violence to go back
:04:42. > :04:46.They would go to the councillors and they would be told,
:04:47. > :04:59.Luckily those women got away because I just persevered.
:05:00. > :05:05.Newsnight has spoken to 25 Asian women across the UK.
:05:06. > :05:08.All complain of Labour councillors and members of Pakistani heritage
:05:09. > :05:24.They say they block vocal independent Asian women
:05:25. > :05:25.like Arooj Shah from entering local government,
:05:26. > :05:27.or try to get them deselected if they do.
:05:28. > :05:30.In some parts of the UK, like in Oldham, where Ms Shah
:05:31. > :05:32.is a Labour councillor, the party has taken over
:05:33. > :05:36.She says that is because they know, in her predominantly Asian ward,
:05:37. > :05:38.there is even resistance from inside the Labour Party
:05:39. > :05:42.There are Labour Party members who will support my
:05:43. > :05:44.two ward colleagues who are both Asian men.
:05:45. > :05:46.When it comes to me, will support anybody but me.
:05:47. > :05:50.They are members of the local Labour Party.
:05:51. > :06:01.Anyone who tries to sugar-coat it or present it in anyway is just
:06:02. > :06:05.Some of them have come up with derogatory
:06:06. > :06:07.comments like, she is a Muslim woman, she shouldn't
:06:08. > :06:14.Some of us have actually dragged them onside and gone,
:06:15. > :06:23.Where in Islam does it say a female cannot represent us?
:06:24. > :06:27.Councillor Shah told me, influential local Labour members
:06:28. > :06:31.spread rumours that she sleeps around, that she is corrupt,
:06:32. > :06:34.a money-launderer, and brief against her to voters.
:06:35. > :06:38.The regional party supports but it is
:06:39. > :06:42.hard to gather the evidence to push through a successful complaint.
:06:43. > :06:45.Stuff was posted through my letterbox.
:06:46. > :06:48.When I opened it, it was a picture of a page three nude model
:06:49. > :06:53.and a picture of my head attached to that.
:06:54. > :06:56.That is a tactic often used to dishonour Muslim women and it has
:06:57. > :07:03.You know, pornographic images with my face on.
:07:04. > :07:11.Najma Hafeez was the first Muslim woman on Birmingham Council back
:07:12. > :07:17.I had phone calls to say, your son is five, do you want him
:07:18. > :07:27.Do you know who was making the phone calls?
:07:28. > :07:31.It was one of my colleagues, so-called.
:07:32. > :07:35.And, unfortunately, a member of my own community.
:07:36. > :07:42.The only way we will stop it is by exposing this.
:07:43. > :07:45.It is not easy for me to say this against my
:07:46. > :07:52.own community but it is bad practice and we must stop it.
:07:53. > :07:54.Labour has a better record than other parties on getting
:07:55. > :08:01.The women we have spoken to say the party often turns a blind eye
:08:02. > :08:03.when Pakistani heritage members influence
:08:04. > :08:04.the democratic process by packing individual wards
:08:05. > :08:10.One woman said Asian councillors were threatening
:08:11. > :08:13.and scaring my family into getting me to step aside.
:08:14. > :08:17.Another said, these men were capable of anything.
:08:18. > :08:20.In the end, I was deselected, despite all
:08:21. > :08:23.Another ex-councillor explained how she was ousted.
:08:24. > :08:26.One of the local councillors had been recruiting family and friends
:08:27. > :08:34.Zahara claims her deselection was masterminded by some of her fellow
:08:35. > :08:39.councillors because she refused to give in to their demands.
:08:40. > :08:41.It became very apparent on the night.
:08:42. > :08:44.These were people I had never seen before.
:08:45. > :08:48.They were told to be there by certain
:08:49. > :08:50.senior Asian councillors, and to vote in a certain way.
:08:51. > :08:55.It is generations of people who have done this.
:08:56. > :08:57.There were two or three young Asian males
:08:58. > :09:01.that found the courage to ring me up and tell me and said
:09:02. > :09:06.I sent letters of complaint to the regional office and the head
:09:07. > :09:13.I was told there was no case to answer.
:09:14. > :09:16.Newsnight has seen other complaints from ex-councillors,
:09:17. > :09:19.detailing what they claim were election flaws and misogynist
:09:20. > :09:25.Most women told us their complaints were not addressed.
:09:26. > :09:48.The Labour Party gave us their statement. The Labour Party has
:09:49. > :09:52.transformed the representation of women in politics. Any complaints or
:09:53. > :09:56.evidence of sexism received by the Labour Party are dealt with fairly,
:09:57. > :10:00.according to our procedures and the law.
:10:01. > :10:02.Earlier, I spoke to the Labour MP for Luton South, Gavin Shuker.
:10:03. > :10:09.I started by asking him about his reaction to Katie's report.
:10:10. > :10:15.Katie's film is really shocking. I feel most shopped for the women who
:10:16. > :10:19.have had to come out and make this case. They deserve some cover from
:10:20. > :10:24.the wider Labour Party. It is clear the stories they were telling ones
:10:25. > :10:28.that chime with my own experience, actually. I think we have a real
:10:29. > :10:31.problem in getting capable young women from the Asian community
:10:32. > :10:36.selected for some it is not good enough to say we are the most
:10:37. > :10:46.representative party. We need to uphold values and representation
:10:47. > :10:49.procedures. I know you are not just interested in your own constituency,
:10:50. > :10:54.but tell us about your constituency. I have worked hard to make sure each
:10:55. > :11:01.selection at local Gottman and for the Parliamentary seat have been
:11:02. > :11:05.done fairly. The real problem is in broadly South Asian communities and
:11:06. > :11:08.constituencies, it is easy to sign up members of your friends and
:11:09. > :11:13.family can get them along to meetings. This is called membership
:11:14. > :11:24.packing and is expressly outlawed in the rules of the Labour Party. We
:11:25. > :11:31.spoke to Najma Hafeez, who was threatened, that her son would not
:11:32. > :11:36.reach his sixth birthday. She seemed a rest. Do you think things are
:11:37. > :11:43.getting worse? There is a huge upward pressure of people who want
:11:44. > :11:47.to be representatives of our party. They are consistently being frozen
:11:48. > :11:51.out of selection process is because the other most capable on the most
:11:52. > :11:56.threatening. I do not know if it is getting any worse but the situation,
:11:57. > :12:03.in my opinion, for those women, could not get any worse. After you
:12:04. > :12:07.raise this, what was the response? I raised concerns of membership
:12:08. > :12:13.packing and what came from it which is essentially good, capable Asian
:12:14. > :12:20.women not being selected. Since I have been a Member of Parliament,
:12:21. > :12:24.the things I have put forward were genuinely shocking and still it
:12:25. > :12:28.feels like there is no support in terms of tackling these abuses on
:12:29. > :12:34.the ground. Katie got a response from the Labour Party that said we
:12:35. > :12:38.deal individually with instances, or allegations of instances, of racism
:12:39. > :12:43.and sexism with the proper procedures. Is that enough? I have
:12:44. > :12:48.sympathy with dealing on a narrow points. What we are talking about is
:12:49. > :12:54.a cultural issue that needs to be challenged on every single level.
:12:55. > :12:57.That requires elected parliamentarians and politicians
:12:58. > :13:05.challenging the cultured day in and day out. You talk about it being a
:13:06. > :13:10.cultural issue. In saying that, do you feel worried you will be
:13:11. > :13:15.fingered as a racist? I do not, personally. I feel like I am
:13:16. > :13:21.representing my Muslim Asian members who say to me consistently we are
:13:22. > :13:26.good, capable and frozen out. This is the challenge for the Labour
:13:27. > :13:30.Party. It used to be we could rely on blocks and votes from
:13:31. > :13:36.communities. I think that is less true. This is an electoral
:13:37. > :13:40.imperatives. We cannot carry on treating the Muslim community as
:13:41. > :13:45.balls. We need to serve up quake candidates at every level. The
:13:46. > :13:50.community knows when abuse is apparent. Have you spoken to MPs
:13:51. > :13:54.with large south Asian communities? I have. There is a sense of, if we
:13:55. > :14:00.were to pick up a fuss, with anything happen? Someone who has
:14:01. > :14:05.kicked up a fuss may be right, actually. Is that not deeply
:14:06. > :14:08.depressing? Deeply depressing and brutal that a member of the
:14:09. > :14:14.Parliamentary Labour Party has to come up to provide cover for women
:14:15. > :14:20.in our community who are suffering as a result of our action. Why do
:14:21. > :14:24.you talk about having spoken to the general secretary of the Labour
:14:25. > :14:27.Party, what do you want to happen? You'll I have been disappointed with
:14:28. > :14:33.the response from the Labour Party and the allegations made by
:14:34. > :14:38.Newsnight. I have felt pressured to be silent on the things I know to be
:14:39. > :14:43.true, issues I have already raised. I think, in many ways, it represents
:14:44. > :14:48.the culture of our party in some ways we need to change. When people
:14:49. > :14:52.come forward with legitimate concerns, they should be back, not
:14:53. > :15:00.silenced. What you want Jeremy Corbyn to do? You'll I would like
:15:01. > :15:04.robust action from the leadership, both from the NEC and the leader of
:15:05. > :15:11.the leather party, to say, if there are these practices, we will take
:15:12. > :15:15.time to sort them out. -- the Labour Party. We will seek to silence them
:15:16. > :15:19.and work with them. That is something Jeremy could do.
:15:20. > :15:24.so said Barack Obama in a forthright interview
:15:25. > :15:26.in the latest edition of The Atlantic magazine.
:15:27. > :15:29.feeling the loosening of the leash no doubt,
:15:30. > :15:32.Among the free riders, France and Britain,
:15:33. > :15:34.at least as far as the Libya operation was concerned.
:15:35. > :15:37.Obama said that some were eager to drag the United States
:15:38. > :15:39.into sectarian conflicts that sometimes had little to do
:15:40. > :15:41.with American interests, and that his support of the NATO
:15:42. > :15:43.military intervention in Libya had been a mistake,
:15:44. > :15:46.driven in part by his belief that Britain and France would bear more
:15:47. > :15:57.of the burden of the operation than they did.
:15:58. > :16:00.VOICEOVER: Right now, the so-called special relationship
:16:01. > :16:01.between the UK and the US
:16:02. > :16:04.does not seem quite as special as it did back then.
:16:05. > :16:08.Alas, I cannot imitate this wonderful American-English accent.
:16:09. > :16:17.when the relationship has been bumpier.
:16:18. > :16:20.This time, the bump in the road has been caused by Obama's frustration
:16:21. > :16:23.in Europe's tendency to push the US to act,
:16:24. > :16:29.and then showing an unwillingness to put any skin in the game.
:16:30. > :16:32.became distracted by a range of other things,
:16:33. > :16:38.The White House has been backpedalling today.
:16:39. > :16:59.saying the President did not mean to be critical of David Cameron.
:17:00. > :17:02.It has said that the US is also to blame for the chaos in Libya.
:17:03. > :17:06.changes in tone depending on who is in office,
:17:07. > :17:09.A President soon to be off the leash or a new
:17:10. > :17:12.hard headed approach to the US's junior partner across the water.
:17:13. > :17:14.STUDIO: Joining me now from Stanford University
:17:15. > :17:16.former Under Secretary of State under
:17:17. > :17:21.George W Bush and former US ambassador to NATO.
:17:22. > :17:27.We know that Barack Obama has rowed back but were you surprised by the
:17:28. > :17:34.tone of his responses in the magazine? I was, I have great
:17:35. > :17:41.respect for Barack Obama, what he was trying to articulate is a
:17:42. > :17:45.sentiment shared by a lot of Americans across both parties, the
:17:46. > :17:49.weakening of the French military, and the cutting of the military
:17:50. > :17:53.budget. They weakening of the military when the arable resolutions
:17:54. > :17:56.were breaking out in 2011 and 2012 but to somehow suggest that Britain
:17:57. > :18:00.and France let us down, I think it in another way, I think the US
:18:01. > :18:05.should have played a bigger role in the Libya operation in 2011. There
:18:06. > :18:10.was a clear view minute imperative to save the people of Benghazi from
:18:11. > :18:13.colonel Gaddafi and his army, the fact the United States took a step
:18:14. > :18:18.back was a mistake in a Nato operation. We are in this together,
:18:19. > :18:23.we have always fought with Britain and France, we could have done
:18:24. > :18:26.better. I know that you support Barack Obama, would you say that in
:18:27. > :18:32.a way, this unloading was a defensive mechanism? It was part of
:18:33. > :18:39.an extraordinary interview that he gave to the magazine, The Atlantic.
:18:40. > :18:43.Probably the most sophisticated expression of his views on the use
:18:44. > :18:49.of power, he went into great detail about his refusal to act in Syria.
:18:50. > :18:53.This was the context of the remarks. My own opinion is that on both sides
:18:54. > :18:57.of the Atlantic we are only as strong as our commitment to each
:18:58. > :19:00.other. It is true that the United States accounts for 75% of the
:19:01. > :19:05.defence spending of all of the Nato allies, and so to in the opinion of
:19:06. > :19:11.Barack Obama, take them out, have them play a second role, it was not
:19:12. > :19:14.workable. -- secondary role. If we are looking to account for the
:19:15. > :19:18.failure of Libya, we should have stayed in, having gone in, we should
:19:19. > :19:22.have tried to help them put their civil is Asian back together, and
:19:23. > :19:27.neither United States nor the United Kingdom did that. Do you think that
:19:28. > :19:32.his relationship with David Cameron is a close one, inasmuch as Barack
:19:33. > :19:39.Obama is close to any otherworldly do? It has been said by many people
:19:40. > :19:43.that Barack Obama does not have a lot of close relationships with
:19:44. > :19:47.world leaders. My sense, I am an outsider, I think they have great
:19:48. > :19:51.respect for each other, that Britain has been a great friend to the
:19:52. > :19:54.United States in many ways. I hope the reverse is true, I hope the
:19:55. > :19:58.British people feel the same way, about the United States. They tend
:19:59. > :20:04.to work well together. This particular article came out of the
:20:05. > :20:07.blue, it was surprising for a lot of people, if anything, who should we
:20:08. > :20:14.blame for the problems of the Middle East? Iran, the Islamic State, the
:20:15. > :20:18.jihadi groups that are wreaking havoc, but we should not blame our
:20:19. > :20:22.greatest ally in the world. I think there is a special relationship and
:20:23. > :20:24.Britain is still the closest friend the United States has. Thank you
:20:25. > :20:28.very much. When Tony Blair dived into the EU
:20:29. > :20:31.Referendum debate this morning calling for more passion
:20:32. > :20:33.from the Pro-EU side, he also deplored
:20:34. > :20:35.the use of the E word. He challenged the idea,
:20:36. > :20:39.put about by many who want a Brexit, that backing Britain's membership
:20:40. > :20:41.of the EU was the choice of
:20:42. > :20:42.the political elite, opining that there are plenty
:20:43. > :20:49.of elites on the other side too. and when did it become such
:20:50. > :20:52.loaded dirty word? In a moment we'll be
:20:53. > :20:54.discussing that, and whether the whole debate over
:20:55. > :20:56.the referendum needs broadening, but first: here's our resident
:20:57. > :21:10.etymologist John Sweeney. VOICEOVER: Britain's never-ending
:21:11. > :21:22.class war has spawned a new mutation in the last few weeks. The elites
:21:23. > :21:26.Are under attack. Who are these elites, of whom they speak, well, to
:21:27. > :21:33.find out more, there is no better a creature than dirty, he is half a
:21:34. > :21:39.toy poodle, and half a whippet, he has a poor in both camps, so to
:21:40. > :21:43.speak, so we think he is the best creature to help us choose through
:21:44. > :21:47.Britain's latest and most troubling social dilemma. Battle commenced
:21:48. > :21:52.from Newsnight one month ago. What is very clear about the 75 year, in
:21:53. > :21:56.this referendum, it is exactly the same, the establishment and the
:21:57. > :22:02.elites, including this great corporation of which Devon is a
:22:03. > :22:11.member... Are you a savage men? -- Evan Are you a lead? -- are you
:22:12. > :22:18.establishment? Others will judge. And I do. The one-time British king,
:22:19. > :22:24.what the Mayor of London calls wiff-waff. Two components, that the
:22:25. > :22:29.people who got to the top did so in a rigged game, that they have the
:22:30. > :22:33.connections rather than having the ability and working hard. Also, once
:22:34. > :22:37.they got there are, they want to self perpetuate, give it to other
:22:38. > :22:40.people that they know rather than the public, so there is a distance
:22:41. > :22:47.between the elite and those who elect them. As the Euro referendum
:22:48. > :22:55.hits fever pitch, or at least, a host of golden daffodils, Bertie and
:22:56. > :23:00.I went in search of the elite. I asked the owner of the British
:23:01. > :23:05.bulldog whether he was a member of the elite. It depends upon what you
:23:06. > :23:12.are classing as an elite, there is an elite in all sorts of things.
:23:13. > :23:17.Don't need the microphone, Bentley, please! LAUGHTER
:23:18. > :23:28.Would you say that Bentley is a member of an elite? In the dock
:23:29. > :23:37.while, I would say, yes. Are you a member of the elite? Certainly not!
:23:38. > :23:45.-- in the dog world. Those who are arguing in favour of the exit are
:23:46. > :23:49.not elite and those that want to stay our elite, what do you think?
:23:50. > :23:55.I'm interested in remaining, it is nothing to do with economics, iron
:23:56. > :23:59.just post-war, and somehow the idea of a united Europe attracts me more
:24:00. > :24:04.than the idea of a fragmented Europe. We have always bred old
:24:05. > :24:10.English sheepdog, we had the 1990 winner at Crufts. Is your dog a
:24:11. > :24:15.member of the elite? No, he's just a pet, and me, not really. All the
:24:16. > :24:19.people you talk to that want to stay in are getting something out of it,
:24:20. > :24:25.I am getting nothing out of it but I do and see the point of being ruled
:24:26. > :24:30.by Brussels. If you want to do something even in the park you have
:24:31. > :24:40.got to get permission. Unbelievable. The ping-pong man told me that he
:24:41. > :24:47.went to a comprehensive. Have you had elocution lessons? I have never
:24:48. > :24:52.had elocution lessons, I would love a society where it did not matter
:24:53. > :24:58.what kind of a jacket you walk, even if it was as hideous as that one. It
:24:59. > :25:05.would only matter, your ability and your work ethic, not your accent,
:25:06. > :25:11.not anything else. Bertie, give me back the microphone! Whether you are
:25:12. > :25:13.for leave all remain, class still dogs our society. As they say, never
:25:14. > :25:25.work with children or animals. STUDIO: Joining me to debate the
:25:26. > :25:27.debate about Europe are the writer Will Self, and Munira Mirza,
:25:28. > :25:31.London's Deputy Mayor for Education and Culture. We will go on to talk
:25:32. > :25:35.about the broader Topix, in terms of the tenor of the campaign, but your
:25:36. > :25:39.thought, leaving the EU, why do you think that calling those in the
:25:40. > :25:44.Remain campaign the elite is an effective tool?
:25:45. > :25:53.It reflects the way in which a lot of people feel about the EU, as
:25:54. > :25:56.being so far removed from their lives, the decision-making is very
:25:57. > :26:01.remote, they think it is anti-democratic. That sense that the
:26:02. > :26:08.elite is not thinking about their interests, that is quite a potent
:26:09. > :26:16.one. Would you use language like that? In your everyday discourse, on
:26:17. > :26:21.the campaign, would you agree with using those sentiments? Talking
:26:22. > :26:27.about an elite? Which wants to remain, and, as you say, having the
:26:28. > :26:31.reins of power. You do not have the reins of power, you want to leave.
:26:32. > :26:35.The amazing thing about the referendum is that people are being
:26:36. > :26:38.given a choice, so fundamental to our democracy, about how we are
:26:39. > :26:49.governed, the democracy, where we put money, borders. The idea that...
:26:50. > :26:54.And another unelected elite may make those decisions in Brussels, the
:26:55. > :27:00.idea that you may be able to overturned that and take control
:27:01. > :27:04.back, that is exciting. It is becoming a bit of a catch all, this
:27:05. > :27:09.term, it is a way of people registering... I agree to an extent,
:27:10. > :27:13.it is a registration of a disconnection from the political
:27:14. > :27:17.class. By pushing it further and further away, to Brussels, we can
:27:18. > :27:20.ignore what is on the end of the fork rather than domestic league, a
:27:21. > :27:26.disconnection within existing politics. That is why semantically
:27:27. > :27:35.it becomes very fluid and slippery, it can be applied anywhere. The idea
:27:36. > :27:38.of people troughing on the Brussels gravy train, that is true, I can
:27:39. > :27:42.think of some very egregious examples in the political class,
:27:43. > :27:49.Neil Kinnock, for example, corruption Commissioner in Brussels,
:27:50. > :27:57.for seven years, and picked up a very generous salary, and that kind
:27:58. > :28:02.of thing. People are angry about it. It was focused on MPs in Westminster
:28:03. > :28:06.if you years ago. It is a free-floating dissatisfaction. You
:28:07. > :28:12.work for Boris, he sent you an e-mail saying, signed up to the
:28:13. > :28:15.campaign or get sacked. Nobody has been sacked, that is worth
:28:16. > :28:18.mentioning, he said it was a mistake, able offering to speak
:28:19. > :28:22.their mind. Look at what has happened to them overnight, he has
:28:23. > :28:33.come out, and instantly, his rhetoric has become a apocalyptic,
:28:34. > :28:39.in true Borisian style, he is talking about dictators and all of
:28:40. > :28:43.this. This is a general sentiment, we can recognise, many people around
:28:44. > :28:47.the world, not just the UK, very disengaged in politics, that is why
:28:48. > :28:53.we see the rise of things like Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders. If
:28:54. > :28:59.you say you disengaged from Westminster, they say yes, if you
:29:00. > :29:04.say disengaged from Brussels, they say yes, they would even disengage
:29:05. > :29:08.from some little constituency. What we are missing in the debate is an
:29:09. > :29:11.understanding of what the issues are, it is in the interest of
:29:12. > :29:16.neither side is to discuss the truth, it doesn't matter if you have
:29:17. > :29:20.a vote to leave all remain, the fundamental issues of the control,
:29:21. > :29:25.the borders, for example, and over the people control of fundamental
:29:26. > :29:31.issues of government, will not be improved in either way. More people
:29:32. > :29:36.in this country know the names of their MPs than their MEPs, and it is
:29:37. > :29:40.true that British exit will not solve overnight the centre
:29:41. > :29:44.disengagement, all the problems of democracy, but it is an important
:29:45. > :29:48.moment, giving people the choice over some very real issues in our
:29:49. > :29:53.society, about the money that we send over, who makes decisions about
:29:54. > :29:57.what border should be, who prioritises... It is more to do with
:29:58. > :30:00.the political class trying to reinvigorate its sense of purpose,
:30:01. > :30:07.we are living in a more free trial than ever that we are living in a
:30:08. > :30:11.world which is more febrile than ever. It is not about beliefs and
:30:12. > :30:16.fear mongering. It is important that we have these arguments. If they are
:30:17. > :30:21.about the right thing. People will get a chance to hear different
:30:22. > :30:25.arguments, that is why the BBC are doing a televised debate. The think
:30:26. > :30:28.find rather worrying, there is a lazy assumption that all the people
:30:29. > :30:33.who want to leave our little Englanders, xenophobic, acolytes of
:30:34. > :30:38.Nigel Farage. -- the thing that I find rather worrying. So that if you
:30:39. > :30:42.are right thinking, you must want to remain. There is a laziness in that
:30:43. > :30:45.thinking, there is some very good internationalist arguments,
:30:46. > :30:56.regressive arguments for wanting to leave. I have not heard any, all I
:30:57. > :31:01.have heard is Tory MPs action saying that he is in favour of which is
:31:02. > :31:05.exit and his headline argument is money, money in your pocket, he is
:31:06. > :31:10.of Ghanaian origin, but what tipped him was the issue of people from
:31:11. > :31:14.outside the European Union being discriminated against in terms of
:31:15. > :31:18.it. I'm afraid we have got to wrap this up, I'm sure that we will come
:31:19. > :31:22.back to it several times over the course of the vote.
:31:23. > :31:26.Now Artsnight, where this week's guest Editor is Thurston Moore,
:31:27. > :31:31.THIS PROGRAMME CONTAINS SOME STRONG LANGUAGE
:31:32. > :31:33.40 years ago, I was an out-of-place teenager
:31:34. > :31:39.inspired to move to Manhattan to join in the punk revolution.
:31:40. > :31:43.Musicians like Patti Smith and the Ramones