:00:00. > :00:08.No-one's celebrating but it's five years today,
:00:09. > :00:21.Countless misjudgements by all involved.
:00:22. > :00:26.It was a strategic opportunity which was missed. It got missed and that
:00:27. > :00:30.is a terrible mistake to make. We'll ask whether actually,
:00:31. > :00:37.in this case earlier military intervention would have
:00:38. > :00:39.made a difference? The grey blob showing
:00:40. > :00:41.Islamic State's territory in Syria and Iraq has grown with frightening
:00:42. > :00:44.speed in the last three years. Have they now peaked,
:00:45. > :00:45.or just paused? We'll ask if the media is playing
:00:46. > :00:50.fair on the Brexit debate, with Alastair Campbell
:00:51. > :00:56.and the Sun's Trevor Kavanagh. And who is the mysterious Italian
:00:57. > :00:59.author whose pen name is Elana She had shown me, not only
:01:00. > :01:09.that she knew how to wound with words, but that she would kill
:01:10. > :01:18.without hesitation. For anyone with a simple theory
:01:19. > :01:23.as to who runs the world, the five years of Syrian civil war,
:01:24. > :01:26.have been a challenge. Some think the US calls the shots,
:01:27. > :01:30.a monopoly superpower. A few - probably insane -
:01:31. > :01:34.people think the UN is some kind of all-powerful world government,
:01:35. > :01:36.and others think everything comes down to great battle of the century,
:01:37. > :01:39.between Islam and the rest All these accounts are belied
:01:40. > :01:46.by the messy complexity of that painful civil war in one
:01:47. > :01:49.medium-sized country. The sad fact is, no-one
:01:50. > :01:52.has been in control. The different powers
:01:53. > :01:54.of the world all agree it's bad, And when the big powers can't agree,
:01:55. > :01:59.painful paralysis is the result. The neo-imperialists,
:02:00. > :02:06.storming around using military force to impose its will on the world,
:02:07. > :02:09.that's hardly a description Smarting from the disaster of Iraq,
:02:10. > :02:17.it's shied away from so-called liberal intervention in most
:02:18. > :02:19.of Syria - but it is a country where chemical weapons have been
:02:20. > :02:22.used, and where millions have been displaced,
:02:23. > :02:26.many on to our own shores. All in all, for us, it's been a five
:02:27. > :02:51.year reminder that we don't always I have a very clear message for
:02:52. > :03:05.president Assad, it is time for him to go.
:03:06. > :03:13.We will double non-lethal support to the Syrian opposition in the coming
:03:14. > :03:16.year. The deadline for us, if we start seeing a bunch of chemical
:03:17. > :03:31.weapons being moved around. We have concluded that the Syrian
:03:32. > :03:32.government has carried this out, and if so, there needs to be
:03:33. > :03:58.international consequences. The ayes day only language understood by
:03:59. > :04:02.killers like this, that is the language of force. -- the only
:04:03. > :04:24.language. We must not and will not be confused
:04:25. > :04:32.in our fight against Isil with support for Assad.
:04:33. > :04:37.TRANSLATION: The task put before the Ministry of Defence and the Armed
:04:38. > :04:49.Forces is largely complete. A look back there, at the evolving
:04:50. > :04:52.Western narrative on Syria over The West has been clear
:04:53. > :04:57.in what it wants: Assad out, a peaceful democracy
:04:58. > :04:59.to flourish in his place. But in the absence of all that,
:05:00. > :05:01.it's never been clear what the second or third
:05:02. > :05:03.choice options are. Russia on the other hand has had
:05:04. > :05:09.more strategic focus - and has never exhibited any
:05:10. > :05:12.self-doubt: for example, the Russian Air Force's top
:05:13. > :05:14.commander in Syria has said the force never missed the target
:05:15. > :05:16.during its operation Let's talk to Lyce Doucet, the BBC's
:05:17. > :05:33.Chief International Correspondent In the history of this war, we have
:05:34. > :05:37.had this momentous development, Russia has said it is pulling out.
:05:38. > :05:44.What has been the reaction in Damascus? It is not completely
:05:45. > :05:48.pulling out, it will maintain a significant military presence, this
:05:49. > :05:54.is part of a bigger strategic goal for President Putin and so
:05:55. > :05:57.significant is the Russian role in Syria, you're getting reaction from
:05:58. > :06:03.government-controlled areas like Damascus and also from rebel held
:06:04. > :06:07.areas. In Damascus government supporters have said how relieved
:06:08. > :06:12.they were that Russia finally got involved in a much more significant
:06:13. > :06:16.way militarily and politically in Syria, Russia's involvement brought
:06:17. > :06:20.President Assad's forces back from the brink, they were close to
:06:21. > :06:22.collapse on some key front lines, and his supporters are now
:06:23. > :06:30.wondering, what if it goes wrong again? Will Russia support them?
:06:31. > :06:32.Russia has made clear that it will, but if the military objectives have
:06:33. > :06:38.been achieved, what is the political plan? Will this include President
:06:39. > :06:43.Assad and will this bring Syria closer to peace and what will be
:06:44. > :06:48.their own future? In rebel held areas, you also hear a welcome
:06:49. > :06:51.regarding Russia pulling out its forces, but we have heard from
:06:52. > :06:59.opposition spokespeople, saying, is Russia going to lose its leverage
:07:00. > :07:00.with President Assad? There is a broad welcome, but many questions,
:07:01. > :07:05.as well. Thanks for joining us. One person who has been close
:07:06. > :07:08.to the centre of the international She was a one time development
:07:09. > :07:14.secretary for Tony Blair, but went on to become UN emergency
:07:15. > :07:17.relief co-ordinator for most I spoke to her yesterday,
:07:18. > :07:24.about some of the mistakes that In 2014 she called the impact
:07:25. > :07:29.of the Syrian war a stain And I think that we really have
:07:30. > :07:43.to think about how in the last five years we allowed Syria to slide
:07:44. > :07:46.into this situation. And the impact that it has
:07:47. > :07:48.had on ordinary Syrians Is there any point in the last five
:07:49. > :07:55.years, do you think, where the West could have made
:07:56. > :07:57.a different decision, that would have made
:07:58. > :07:59.a really material difference I think there have been various
:08:00. > :08:10.points at which considerably more pressure could have been put
:08:11. > :08:21.on Syria, if, for example, the permanent members
:08:22. > :08:25.of the Security Council had shared the same analysis of
:08:26. > :08:45.what was happening in Syria. 2012, Russia appeared to have a view
:08:46. > :08:48.that Assad should move aside. And the West didn't buy
:08:49. > :08:51.in to that Russian plan then. Looking back doors that not look
:08:52. > :08:54.like the most tragic error of this entire conflict on
:08:55. > :08:58.the part of the West? Well, I have always thought that
:08:59. > :09:08.a strategy whose starting point was "Assad must go" was a strategy
:09:09. > :09:10.which would be incredibly Because if you are starting
:09:11. > :09:30.negotiating position is one that sees absolutely no room
:09:31. > :09:33.for movement, then it is hard to see how you're going to negotiate your
:09:34. > :09:35.way out of that. And I think the result of that has
:09:36. > :09:38.been that countries have had to almost backtrack
:09:39. > :09:41.to where we ended up at the end of last year and this year,
:09:42. > :09:44.where the there is some wriggle room being looked for in terms of saying
:09:45. > :09:47.well, we need to start a negotiation, there has to be
:09:48. > :10:06.a transition and yes, of course our ultimate goal is that
:10:07. > :10:09.aside must go. But the Russians said,
:10:10. > :10:15.Assad will go. It was a strategic opportunity
:10:16. > :10:23.which was missed. And it got missed because countries
:10:24. > :10:27.just got locked into these And that is a terrible
:10:28. > :10:31.mistake to make when you're to negotiate your way
:10:32. > :10:33.through the kind of complexity Now there may have been a feeling,
:10:34. > :10:41.and I think that there was from some, that this
:10:42. > :10:43.was not a genuine offer. 2013 of course was a point
:10:44. > :10:47.at which there were, there was a big decision to be made
:10:48. > :10:50.about military intervention and whether the West should take
:10:51. > :10:52.a military role. And the UK Parliament voted not
:10:53. > :10:54.to do that. Do you think, looking back,
:10:55. > :10:57.that was a mistake, or not? It is hard to say that it was
:10:58. > :11:00.a mistake because I think that if you look at the situation
:11:01. > :11:03.in Syria at the time, and if you just think
:11:04. > :11:05.about historically, the military interventions that have been made
:11:06. > :11:08.and the impact that they have had on the region, you cannot exactly
:11:09. > :11:10.say that we have covered herself No, my thought actually is we have
:11:11. > :11:15.had several that have been disastrous and then say OK,
:11:16. > :11:18.we had better not have this one. And this one might just have been
:11:19. > :11:21.the one where you would actually say So my approach has always been
:11:22. > :11:26.in relation to military action, that it has to be, or it can be,
:11:27. > :11:30.if you're going down that road, There has never been a sense
:11:31. > :11:35.in which we can say that strategically, looking
:11:36. > :11:36.at the political elements, looking at the broader potential
:11:37. > :11:38.for military action, looking at the longer term
:11:39. > :11:40.development of Syria. This has had a huge
:11:41. > :11:42.impact on the country. Looking at the humanitarian
:11:43. > :11:44.consequences, looking at how So just focusing on one
:11:45. > :11:47.element of it, in my view Joining me now in the studio
:11:48. > :11:51.is Paddy Ashdown, former Lib Dem leader who was International High
:11:52. > :11:53.Representative for Bosnia and Herzegovina, and
:11:54. > :11:55.Labour's Mary Creagh, who voted against military
:11:56. > :11:57.intervention in Syria in 2013. Down the line from Florida we're
:11:58. > :11:59.joined by Paul Wolfowitz who was the US Deputy Secretary
:12:00. > :12:02.of Defence under President George W. Bush, and in Geneva as part
:12:03. > :12:05.of the women's advisory board for the Syrian peace
:12:06. > :12:09.talks is Reem Turkmani. Mary, you had a vote in the British
:12:10. > :12:13.Parliament and you voted against. That is the vote I regret the most
:12:14. > :12:15.in my 11 years as a Labour MP, it was a failure of David Cameron and
:12:16. > :12:18.Nick Clegg to convince enough of their MPs to back them and also a
:12:19. > :12:21.failure of the Labour Party and it was a grave misjudgement and the
:12:22. > :12:23.Syrian people have paid the consequences, because we essentially
:12:24. > :12:26.told a dictator that he had impunity to murder his own people with barrel
:12:27. > :12:33.bombs and chemical weapons, through siege and starvation. Do many of
:12:34. > :12:37.your colleagues feel that way? There is a number of us who change their
:12:38. > :12:41.mind and voted in favour of air strikes in December, because we
:12:42. > :12:48.realise that the Syrian people had paid for that decision with their
:12:49. > :12:55.lives in many cases. Reem, what you feel when you hear that? From Mary.
:12:56. > :13:00.First let me start by saying that I'm speaking in my personal
:13:01. > :13:07.capacity, not as a member of the advisory board. The debate about
:13:08. > :13:11.military intervention in 2013 was within the context of a political
:13:12. > :13:18.plan which does not aim to change the regime or ends the regime, the
:13:19. > :13:24.Americans stated it Jerry Kelly, they were there to hurt the regime,
:13:25. > :13:33.but not to overthrow the regime -- stated it very clearly. In 2015, the
:13:34. > :13:36.debate which was just refer to, that was about something completely
:13:37. > :13:43.different, it was against Isis and not against the regime, and the
:13:44. > :13:47.British American warplanes are in Syria and they don't even attempt to
:13:48. > :13:55.fire at any territories that are held by the regime. They are clearly
:13:56. > :14:00.not messing up with any land that had a Russian flags on it. Just
:14:01. > :14:07.Syrian flags. We have to be clear about that. In two sentences, can
:14:08. > :14:11.you say why intervention would have been worse and would have done more
:14:12. > :14:22.damage than good? No intervention would have settled
:14:23. > :14:28.the war and led to a victory for either side. We needed international
:14:29. > :14:32.consensus on the solution. This is the only thing that changes
:14:33. > :14:38.dynamics. It is the American, Russian process, when they sat in on
:14:39. > :14:43.a meeting about a ceasefire, there was a ceasefire. That is what we
:14:44. > :14:49.needed and the opportunity that we missed in 2012. Paul, take us
:14:50. > :14:57.through whether you think intervention should have been
:14:58. > :15:02.carried out, and when? We talk a lot about the past and no question
:15:03. > :15:06.people make a lot of policy based on what happened in 2003. If we are
:15:07. > :15:12.looking for some local examples of how things do and do not work it is
:15:13. > :15:21.useful to go back 25 years to 1991 when we had the ceasefire after the
:15:22. > :15:28.first Gulf War. There were uprising in northern and southern Iraq. The
:15:29. > :15:33.Shia were abandoned with terrible consequences and were also living
:15:34. > :15:36.with the consequences today. The Kurds were rescued belatedly and
:15:37. > :15:42.created what is probably the most viable part of Iraq today. I think
:15:43. > :15:45.what we're seeing in the Russian intervention is if you limit your
:15:46. > :15:49.object gives and it seems the Russians are trying to do that, you
:15:50. > :15:54.can accomplish a lot more. I think whatever is done, I agree with the
:15:55. > :16:00.earlier speaker, needs to any strategic context. I think that has
:16:01. > :16:05.to recognise that there are a group of Syrians who may not like Assad
:16:06. > :16:10.but feel more endangered by the triumph of the Sunni Muslim
:16:11. > :16:15.majority. And then the Sunni Muslim majority feel oppressed by Assad.
:16:16. > :16:20.Talking about Assad must go, that is not a strategic description of where
:16:21. > :16:25.we need to end up. And focusing exclusively on Isis is not strategic
:16:26. > :16:30.either. When you look at the interventions going back to the
:16:31. > :16:34.first Iraq War, the Bosnian war, because of an adventure, the second
:16:35. > :16:40.Iraq War, all the interventions, what do you think the success rate
:16:41. > :16:46.is, that's got to Libya, what is the success rate in your assessment? We
:16:47. > :16:52.could go all the way back to the Korean War 60 years ago which of the
:16:53. > :16:57.time was seen as a disaster and cost 40,000 American lives. The country
:16:58. > :17:02.was in horrible shape afterwards and 60 years later it is a modern
:17:03. > :17:10.miracle. What sport would you give it, you think we get it right half
:17:11. > :17:15.the time, 90%, 20%? I've not tried to do a box score on that and I'm
:17:16. > :17:19.not sure that is useful as a way to think about that. There are things
:17:20. > :17:24.that we have done right, things we have done wrong and that is how to
:17:25. > :17:27.think about it. Lord Ashdown, there are plenty of successful and
:17:28. > :17:33.unsuccessful ones, what would characterise them? The successful
:17:34. > :17:40.ones are the ones you recognise that military action has been taken to
:17:41. > :17:45.achieve a political end. War is the continuation of diplomacy by other
:17:46. > :17:49.means as has been said. We have forgotten the diplomacy and
:17:50. > :17:53.strategy. Putin does nothing unless it has political effect. He
:17:54. > :17:58.intervened in Syria with the aim of supporting his man in theory, asset,
:17:59. > :18:02.and playing himself back into the Middle East and international
:18:03. > :18:07.affairs. He is leaving Syria to send a message to asset, that is why he's
:18:08. > :18:10.going, which is you relied on the to survive you had better do what I say
:18:11. > :18:16.now or we will not come back to help you. That gives him the bridge in
:18:17. > :18:19.the peace talks. What Putin does and where he wins every time, he makes
:18:20. > :18:24.sure the action he takes has a political effect. We believe, we see
:18:25. > :18:30.a problem in the world and we want to vomit. We remember the war but we
:18:31. > :18:36.forget the diplomacy. And that is where Putin wins and where we lose.
:18:37. > :18:44.Talking about about the diplomacy. Mary Craig do you feel that Western
:18:45. > :18:48.policy has been too inflexible? We have had red lines, we turned down
:18:49. > :18:53.early deals with the Russians. That vote in 2013 created a chain
:18:54. > :18:58.reaction, we created two spaces, a political space into which the male
:18:59. > :19:01.Putin moved because he became the person that then oversaw the
:19:02. > :19:04.dismantling of the Assad chemical weapons and it created a
:19:05. > :19:09.geographical, ungoverned space in the east of Syria allowing Isis to
:19:10. > :19:15.move in and destabilise Benteke, northern Iraq. So there were two
:19:16. > :19:20.spaces created by that. When we talk about these abstract concepts of
:19:21. > :19:25.strategy, you must not forget the human cost paid. Europe is not
:19:26. > :19:28.focused on the refugee crisis, we have been distracted by a war in
:19:29. > :19:33.Ukraine, this country has been distracted by a referendum on the
:19:34. > :19:40.EU. And on our borders, 4000 people have drowned trying to reach Europe
:19:41. > :19:46.in boats. Because our countries together cannot work out safe, legal
:19:47. > :19:55.and compassionate routes for them to flee. Let us not misunderstand the
:19:56. > :20:00.2000 test 2013 vote, it was not about military intervention at about
:20:01. > :20:07.upholding international law. We had the chance to build a coalition and
:20:08. > :20:12.did not take it. Because of that Putin had a political strategy for
:20:13. > :20:19.military action, we never had. Do you agree that the biggest single
:20:20. > :20:25.mistake has been the West and their red lines which made a deal with
:20:26. > :20:31.Putin almost impossible? They raised the bar too high, they locked
:20:32. > :20:36.themselves in the position of regime change only a few months after the
:20:37. > :20:42.beginning of the revolution. When Syria, I'm in the Russians were
:20:43. > :20:47.already in Syria. They equip the Syrian army, help to build it. So to
:20:48. > :20:52.go to a country with a strong Russian presence and say you want
:20:53. > :20:56.regime change when the Russians made it clear after Libya that they would
:20:57. > :21:00.not allow such an agenda to take place any more, that was an obvious
:21:01. > :21:06.mistake. And in 2012 when the opportunity came in and the Russian
:21:07. > :21:10.said OK, we agree that he leaves, that Assad leaves at the end of his
:21:11. > :21:15.term in 2014, when they renew presidential elections coming, so
:21:16. > :21:21.you just should accept that he stayed until 2014. Both the Syrian
:21:22. > :21:25.opposition and the West rejected that and look at where we are now.
:21:26. > :21:32.2016 and he is still in power. And still a lot of people dying. Paul,
:21:33. > :21:36.you are a guy everyone thinks is the person who believes in shock and all
:21:37. > :21:44.and just wants to bomb when you see a problem. What you now think about
:21:45. > :21:48.the diplomacy of the West, do not think the biggest mistake in Syria
:21:49. > :21:53.was the failure of the West to come to a deal with the Russians that
:21:54. > :21:58.might have allowed Assad to stay for a couple of years or a year or two.
:21:59. > :22:02.I do not know what the evidence is that suggests the Russians would
:22:03. > :22:05.have agreed on something that would have brought an end to the war. I do
:22:06. > :22:10.think the burden of proof is on anyone who says we could not have
:22:11. > :22:14.done anything to relieve the humanitarian disaster. Creating safe
:22:15. > :22:19.zones along the Jordanian and Turkish border for example. If we
:22:20. > :22:23.had an overall strategy that might have included -- included negotiated
:22:24. > :22:28.with the Russians, that would have fitted into it. One problem is we
:22:29. > :22:32.step into negotiation with basically no alternative to negotiating. But
:22:33. > :22:37.the Russians, it is the other arm of a more active diplomacy, even a
:22:38. > :22:42.military diplomacy. They just demonstrated that recently, there
:22:43. > :22:50.are now in a strong position if they want to negotiate and we are not.
:22:51. > :22:55.The point for Mrs is the Russians have a bigger dog in this fight. We
:22:56. > :23:02.are coping with jihadis returning from the battlefield. Chechnya is
:23:03. > :23:05.the battlefield, so it was in their interests. We lost an opportunity.
:23:06. > :23:11.One of the biggest surprises of the five year conflict
:23:12. > :23:13.was the sudden rise of Isis, Isil, so-called Islamic State,
:23:14. > :23:17.It has variously looked unassailable, and yet also
:23:18. > :23:23.Richard Watson has pulled together some of the evidence.
:23:24. > :23:31.Some new information looking at the map as to their territory, there to
:23:32. > :23:36.rain. We have worked with data analysis company and working on a
:23:37. > :23:42.map of Syria and Iraq looking at territory. We can see that now. If
:23:43. > :23:52.you look at that area, that is the position on January year ago. Quite
:23:53. > :23:57.extensive territory held by Islamic then. We asked scientists
:23:58. > :24:04.recalculate the tighter to the 14th of March, just this weekend. That is
:24:05. > :24:09.the new position, they lost quite a lot of territory. 22% of their
:24:10. > :24:14.territory in about 14 months. So it looks as if there are on the back
:24:15. > :24:19.foot. They made some limited gains however put up but those gains are
:24:20. > :24:23.in the colour red. Around the ancient site of bomb era. Far
:24:24. > :24:28.outweighed by losses elsewhere many Kurdish areas. What about the
:24:29. > :24:34.foreign fighters, the attractiveness of Isis? It has been significant,
:24:35. > :24:41.the foreign fighters, one of the most obvious reasons is that the
:24:42. > :24:48.Kurds control the Syrian Turkish border area and so it is harder to
:24:49. > :24:51.get in foreign fighters to the territory. And if you have a
:24:52. > :24:55.shrinking caliphate, you are no longer a winning team and so the
:24:56. > :25:01.attraction is lower than it was 18 months ago. Do we know much about
:25:02. > :25:06.the number of British fighters going out there, before Christmas last
:25:07. > :25:12.year it is all we were talking about. I spoke to security sources
:25:13. > :25:14.and they see that the flow of British jihadists peaked about 18
:25:15. > :25:20.months ago. They told me something interesting, that the rate of flow
:25:21. > :25:23.has now slowed down. It has not stopped, people are still going out
:25:24. > :25:29.there, total numbers are interesting. British fighters out
:25:30. > :25:34.there, 800 so have gone out. Around 100 have been killed in Syria, and
:25:35. > :25:35.about 350 are back in the UK. Thank you very much.
:25:36. > :25:38.In this country, we have a famously robust and campaigning press -
:25:39. > :25:43.But when it comes to the EU referendum, does the desire by some
:25:44. > :25:54.newspapers to campaign, get in the way of public understanding?
:25:55. > :25:56.Alistair Campbell, formerly Tony Blair's communications chief
:25:57. > :26:01.has written an excoriating criticism of the press's behaviour
:26:02. > :26:28.Spinnaker --. Has coverage of Brexit been unfair? Two claims about the
:26:29. > :26:47.monarchy, has coverage moved to report urged to political interests?
:26:48. > :26:52.Do you think it is the job of newspaper to present information
:26:53. > :26:58.about the EU and its workings in such a way as will help readers make
:26:59. > :27:04.up their minds? Absolutely. Why not do it! We do! Give us an example of
:27:05. > :27:07.some things you think they have done which does not help the reader make
:27:08. > :27:12.up their minds. They present only one side of the story. For example a
:27:13. > :27:16.series economic figure like Mark Carney, Governor of the Bank of
:27:17. > :27:21.England, goes to a committee of MPs and at last question is, says what
:27:22. > :27:23.he thinks. The Archbishop of Canterbury makes the football
:27:24. > :27:28.statement, both of those occasions, most of the papers -- thoughtful
:27:29. > :27:38.statement. The right-wing papers, the Sun, the Times, express, the
:27:39. > :27:43.star, and the Daily Mail probably is the worst. What they do they spin
:27:44. > :27:50.the whole thing in one direction. Mark Carney is part of project fear.
:27:51. > :27:54.The Archbishop of Canterbury is saying because he did say he is not
:27:55. > :27:57.-- it is not racist to worry about immigration, they presented that as
:27:58. > :28:04.he was somehow whacking the case. And they tell lies, write stories
:28:05. > :28:08.that totally untrue. Let me ask you, as the European Union banned
:28:09. > :28:15.hairdressers from wearing high heels? As the European Union... Have
:28:16. > :28:20.we said that? You said they were going to. Has the European Union
:28:21. > :28:32.force does to call Christmas a winter festival to mark? The Sun has
:28:33. > :28:38.been running this kind of story for decades. The thing about Alistair,
:28:39. > :28:42.he forgets that we had known each other a long time. He probably
:28:43. > :28:48.forgets a conversation we had, which I noted in my diary at the time, he
:28:49. > :28:53.has told me that in his view he has never been a journalist but a
:28:54. > :28:59.propagandist. At least I admit it. Let him finish. I also suspect he is
:29:00. > :29:02.a Eurosceptic. He's peddling the line because he is a propagandist.
:29:03. > :29:08.We believe in what we're saying. We always have had the same stance, we
:29:09. > :29:12.are newspaper and entitled to have a view, and editorial view the top we
:29:13. > :29:16.always stood out against the European constitution, the single
:29:17. > :29:24.currency, and against mass uncontrolled immigration. That is
:29:25. > :29:27.the position from which... Two minutes ago you said your job was to
:29:28. > :29:31.give people information on which to base a decision. We have carried
:29:32. > :29:39.many opinion paces by people for the European Union. -- opinion pieces.
:29:40. > :29:43.They do carry pieces on both sides of the argument. They do not present
:29:44. > :29:54.two sides to an argument. We do. You do not. Let me just say, I admit I
:29:55. > :30:00.have a bias. I admit it. I admit it. What I do not do, and never did as a
:30:01. > :30:06.journalist, is to make up stories and I believe that your paper, the
:30:07. > :30:15.Daily Mail and the other papers, express for example. That is a bit
:30:16. > :30:27.rich, actually. That you never made up stories. Trevor has had less say
:30:28. > :30:33.so I will let him speak. He has not said anything. Repeat your point
:30:34. > :30:45.about his critique. We believe that the European Union
:30:46. > :30:50.lacks a democratic accountability. Are you giving your readers the
:30:51. > :30:53.information to make a decision? We are telling them that Brexit was a
:30:54. > :31:00.catastrophic failure, which is supported. Brexit? The European
:31:01. > :31:06.signal currency, it was a dismal failure, you supported it from the
:31:07. > :31:11.very beginning, you propagandised... When you work in government, did you
:31:12. > :31:19.selectively pick evidence in order to promote the case? Yes, you did.
:31:20. > :31:25.With government policy we would have a position and we would promote it.
:31:26. > :31:31.To be fair to Trevor, not Trevor, but papers like the Daily Mail, they
:31:32. > :31:36.were very careful not to call us liars, but I'm making the point, I
:31:37. > :31:40.gave you a few trivial examples. The sun newspaper has reported in the
:31:41. > :31:49.past that because of Europe we are going to get rid of Christmas. You
:31:50. > :31:55.have said that, Trevor. Oh come on. We are talking about big issues, and
:31:56. > :31:59.my issue is that you are not giving the public fair, balanced coverage
:32:00. > :32:02.about these issues. Were you as critical when the papers were on
:32:03. > :32:10.your side of the argument? Probably not. When they were making fun of
:32:11. > :32:16.William Hague. The Scottish independence referendum. What they
:32:17. > :32:23.should not do is make up stories. Their media view another example.
:32:24. > :32:28.Brexit and the Queen. -- let media view another example. He is on the
:32:29. > :32:37.board of it so which is investigating it. Your editor, Tony
:32:38. > :32:40.Gallagher, he said they did audience research of what the audience
:32:41. > :32:43.believed and that guided them in terms of how they are covering the
:32:44. > :32:47.vote, this is the most interesting thing. Almost as though you think
:32:48. > :32:53.the readers are telling you what to write. For the last 35 years, I
:32:54. > :32:59.became political editor in 1983, from that moment and before, we have
:33:00. > :33:04.had a sceptical view and a very strong sceptical view and we have
:33:05. > :33:12.been proven right on every single count, and the constitution and the
:33:13. > :33:14.euro and the control of the borders and uncontrolled immigration, and
:33:15. > :33:17.frankly we are the ones who have been proven right, and the
:33:18. > :33:24.propagandist in the hands of Alistair Campbell here,
:33:25. > :33:27.self-professed publicist like Alistair Campbell, he is singing a
:33:28. > :33:35.tune because he works for a PR company. Trevor, if I may say so, I
:33:36. > :33:44.believe... You are accusing me of all sorts. I have no vested interest
:33:45. > :33:48.in this apart from my own personal opinion. You talk about fair and
:33:49. > :33:55.balanced opinion, how much coverage did you give to the IMF,
:33:56. > :33:59.Rolls-Royce, Morgan Stanley, Vauxhall, Centrica, Nato, they'll
:34:00. > :34:14.say stay in Europe, but some bloke from the bridges, -- bridges, --
:34:15. > :34:28.British Chambers of commerce? We did give some focus on Vauxhall. You
:34:29. > :34:36.have not made up your mind on how the Sun is going to vote. You have
:34:37. > :34:43.raised your eyes at that. We cannot give our verdict until we have
:34:44. > :34:49.weighed up the evidence. LAUGHTER You are being ironic? In the sense
:34:50. > :34:57.that firstly there is no argument, I think. Europe is a busted flush. And
:34:58. > :35:01.because you think that, your readers should not be given both sides of
:35:02. > :35:10.the story. Who is going to make the decision for the Sun? Rupert
:35:11. > :35:12.Murdoch. You say you are going to put other people... You are boring,
:35:13. > :35:16.I'm sorry. Thanks for joining us. "If the book is worth something,
:35:17. > :35:18.it should be enough", is her philosophy -
:35:19. > :35:20.which is why nobody - except her publisher
:35:21. > :35:22.and a very select few - know the true identity
:35:23. > :35:24.of Elena Ferrante. The Italian author of nine novels,
:35:25. > :35:27.it's her so-called Neapolitan novels that have made her the talk
:35:28. > :35:29.of many a household - the last of which,
:35:30. > :35:32.The Story Of The Lost Child, was recently longlisted
:35:33. > :35:34.for the Man Booker International An Italian professor has come up
:35:35. > :35:37.with the latest theory on who the real Elena Ferrante
:35:38. > :35:40.is but the mystery goes on. In the absence of an interview
:35:41. > :35:46.with the author, Katie Razzall went to the woman who's become the face
:35:47. > :35:49.of the Ferrante novels in the English-speaking world -
:35:50. > :35:51.translator, Ann Goldstein - to find out what all
:35:52. > :35:59.the fuss is about. My friendship with Leila began
:36:00. > :36:01.the day we decided to go upstairs, step after step, flight
:36:02. > :36:06.after flight, to the door Unmasking Elena Ferrante has become
:36:07. > :36:12.an Italian parlour game. This, in some secret place
:36:13. > :36:23.in myself, I still thought. She had shown me not only
:36:24. > :36:25.that she knew how to wound with words, but that she would kill
:36:26. > :36:28.without hesitation. Ferrante's Neapolitan quartet
:36:29. > :36:29.catapulted the Italian novelist The story of a friendship
:36:30. > :36:37.between two women growing up in poverty in Naples in
:36:38. > :36:40.the second half of the 20th century. But with the author doing only
:36:41. > :36:44.the odd interview by e-mail, her translator often
:36:45. > :36:49.speaks in her place. Her novels are about
:36:50. > :36:51.a place and time that you might not be
:36:52. > :36:53.specifically familiar with. The relationships she describes
:36:54. > :36:56.and the struggles, especially of women,
:36:57. > :36:59.that she describes, are very compelling and universal,
:37:00. > :37:04.I should say. She talks herself about
:37:05. > :37:09.how she wants to get at the truth of emotions
:37:10. > :37:12.and she says somewhere that anonymity helps her to get
:37:13. > :37:15.to the truth of an emotion. I heard of some man
:37:16. > :37:17.who said after reading it, he said he understood his family,
:37:18. > :37:20.meaning, I guess, the women But the identity of the author
:37:21. > :37:26.of books also has readers It has become an Italian
:37:27. > :37:39.detective story. The BBC drama had Rufus Sewell
:37:40. > :37:42.in the title role of Zen, but when it comes to Elena Ferrante,
:37:43. > :37:45.Italy has this man, a professor and writer, seen with a journalist
:37:46. > :37:47.from the Italian newspaper that carried
:37:48. > :37:49.his big reveal, from a detailed study of references in one
:37:50. > :38:01.of the novels, the name in the frame is Marcella Marmo, a professor
:38:02. > :38:03.at Naples university who studied at the same prestigious school
:38:04. > :38:05.as Elena Ferrante's narrator. I did not think it was necessarily
:38:06. > :38:10.right, but I have no idea. Yes, she did, but that
:38:11. > :38:14.is what they all say, The likes of the Bronte sisters
:38:15. > :38:18.knew about anonymity, but that is when women
:38:19. > :38:20.were not supposed More recently Joe Klein
:38:21. > :38:25.tried but failed to hide his identity
:38:26. > :38:28.as the author of Primary Colours, and even JK Rowling was outed
:38:29. > :38:30.when she tried to move secretly When it comes to Ferrante,
:38:31. > :38:35.even the woman who has translated all her work does not get
:38:36. > :38:40.to communicate directly. When I have questions,
:38:41. > :38:50.I write to the editors and they write to her,
:38:51. > :38:52.if I can't answer the question, and then she writes to them
:38:53. > :38:55.and they write to me. I have a very close relationship
:38:56. > :39:02.with the person that writes the books but I don't
:39:03. > :39:04.need to know who she is, and I don't
:39:05. > :39:07.want to know who she is. I feel a nostalgia
:39:08. > :39:10.for our childhood. She may not want to know,
:39:11. > :39:17.but can Ann Goldstein offer any I get the sense that she is very
:39:18. > :39:27.well read and educated, a woman in her mid-60s who is very
:39:28. > :39:30.intelligent and has had The Brexit debate may have
:39:31. > :39:51.suppressed some of the Chancellor's Our policy editor
:39:52. > :40:07.Chris Cook is with me. This is about schools. A few things
:40:08. > :40:11.which will be in the budget, there is about 1,000,000,000 and a half
:40:12. > :40:13.pounds, which is not much, but a year of the cuts going into schools
:40:14. > :40:21.this Parliament. Some of the money will be a mark to encourage schools
:40:22. > :40:27.to stay open the beyond 330, and the other thing, the really big thing,
:40:28. > :40:34.the Prime Minister would like all schools to be academies by 2022. If
:40:35. > :40:37.they are not in 2020 already academies, they need to have a plan
:40:38. > :40:40.in place so they are there by the middle of next Parliament and that
:40:41. > :40:47.is potentially an absolutely enormous change. No local government
:40:48. > :40:51.schools in England. Basically. The local authority schools are those
:40:52. > :40:54.which are funded through the local authority and the government gives
:40:55. > :40:59.them money and they give the money to the local authority and they do
:41:00. > :41:06.not run local authority schools, they supervise them and they give
:41:07. > :41:10.them support. Academies are run directly and supervised by central
:41:11. > :41:14.government, given money by central government, and the people that run
:41:15. > :41:18.them are third-party charities. Rather than having your school
:41:19. > :41:22.answerable to your local councillor, it is answerable to a charity and
:41:23. > :41:25.then to the Secretary of State for Education. How much difference is
:41:26. > :41:32.this going to make two schools in England? There's no evidence to
:41:33. > :41:37.suggest this will standards. -- this will improve standards. It is an
:41:38. > :41:45.evidence -based light area and we know that early academies, they did
:41:46. > :41:53.work, but we are talking about turning around schools and schools
:41:54. > :41:57.which fostered think are fine, and we have no idea if this is going to
:41:58. > :42:03.work -- which Ofsted things are fine. Every school is facing a
:42:04. > :42:08.change to the funding for Miller, some will face stringent cuts, and
:42:09. > :42:12.there are cuts coming down the line -- funding formula. Chris, thanks
:42:13. > :42:15.for joining us. We leave you with news that the last
:42:16. > :42:22.remaining script hand written by William Shakespeare is to be put
:42:23. > :42:25.online by the British Library. And topically, it's a speech
:42:26. > :42:26.about refugees delivered But we all know Shakespeare
:42:27. > :42:32.should be heard, not read, and so we leave you with
:42:33. > :42:35.Dame Harriet Walter. You'll put down strangers,
:42:36. > :42:43.Kill them, cut their throats, possess their houses,
:42:44. > :42:46.And lead the majesty of law in line, Say now the king (As he is clement,
:42:47. > :42:55.if th' offender mourn) Should so much come to short
:42:56. > :42:57.of your great trespass As but to banish you,
:42:58. > :43:00.whether would you go? What country, by the
:43:01. > :43:03.nature of your error, Go you to France or Flanders,
:43:04. > :43:08.To any German province, to Spain or Portugal, Nay,
:43:09. > :43:11.any where that not adheres to England - Why, you must
:43:12. > :43:18.needs be strangers. Would you be pleased to find
:43:19. > :43:21.a nation of such barbarous temper, That, breaking out
:43:22. > :43:24.in hideous violence, Would not afford you
:43:25. > :43:26.an abode on earth, Whet their detested knives
:43:27. > :43:29.against your throats, Spurn you like dogs,
:43:30. > :43:33.and like as if that God Owed not nor made not you,
:43:34. > :43:37.nor that the claimants Were not all appropriate
:43:38. > :43:39.to your comforts, But chartered unto them,
:43:40. > :43:41.what would you think This is the strangers' case;
:43:42. > :44:09.And this your mountanish inhumanity. There might be a few spots of rain
:44:10. > :44:10.and drizzle in parts of England and Wales tonight and tomorrow