:00:10. > :00:21.Brussels is a city of security today. The search for remaining
:00:22. > :00:25.perpetrators. And sadness. We are here at the Place de la Bourse, with
:00:26. > :00:29.Brussels trying to recover. Will ask if it is fair to blame Belgium for
:00:30. > :00:31.security failure is given the number of other cities that have ensured
:00:32. > :00:33.this kind of terror. Will Brexit make us
:00:34. > :00:35.safer from terror - We'll ask the Defence
:00:36. > :00:37.Secretary Michael Fallon, Europhile Lord Falconer
:00:38. > :00:41.and sceptic Daniel Hannan. And France's most renowned living
:00:42. > :00:53.philosopher Bernard Henri Levi. It is continental, a continental
:00:54. > :00:58.state of emergency. Europe is now living in a state of emergency. Not
:00:59. > :01:05.only France. It is not only war, it is general war.
:01:06. > :01:11.A day in which the saddest stories begin to emerge,
:01:12. > :01:14.as we start putting names, faces, personalities to the numbers we have
:01:15. > :01:22.been reporting - the fatalities of yesterday's attacks.
:01:23. > :01:25.Alongside that, of course the hunt for the guilty goes on,
:01:26. > :01:27.and the attempt to clarify who was involved.
:01:28. > :01:30.There's been some confusion but we know the names of two suicide
:01:31. > :01:31.brothers, - yes, another pair of terrorist siblings,
:01:32. > :01:36.In this case, one who killed himself at the airport,
:01:37. > :01:42.the other on the metro.
:01:43. > :01:45.Meanwhile Belgium has been in mourning today, the first
:01:46. > :01:50.Brussels is not back to normal, it lacks a lot of its bustle,
:01:51. > :01:53.but it does at least have buses again, and much of the metro
:01:54. > :01:55.is working too, so it is getting back to business.
:01:56. > :01:57.The city is itself a target of course -
:01:58. > :02:00.the city way of life makes us vulnerable to attack,
:02:01. > :02:18.Brussels, one day on. And here of normality. Like other cities, that
:02:19. > :02:22.have been attacked, it is all about living here, crowding on to buses
:02:23. > :02:25.and into underground spaces from which it is hard to escape.
:02:26. > :02:32.Wonderful if everyone respects the rules, awful when they do not. So in
:02:33. > :02:36.Brussels today, extra security was one of the extra hassles of urban
:02:37. > :02:46.life. Queues to get into the main station, the Gare Midi, to make room
:02:47. > :02:50.for bag searches and quick checks. I guess there is nothing else we can
:02:51. > :02:55.do so we have to accept it and be patient. A heavy police and military
:02:56. > :03:02.presence, to. Reassuring but also a reminder of what there is to fear.
:03:03. > :03:06.Hassell, for sure, the danger of crowds, probably, but cities have an
:03:07. > :03:12.irrepressible ability to recover, and Brussels is no exception. It is
:03:13. > :03:16.all about safety in numbers. There are just too many individuals who
:03:17. > :03:20.simply have something they need to do and they force life back into the
:03:21. > :03:28.public domain. One other feature of Brussels today, collective mourning.
:03:29. > :03:34.The silence at midday, the Place de la Bourse designated by people power
:03:35. > :03:39.alone as a physical symbol for collective expression. Can a city
:03:40. > :03:43.have feelings? I always grown at myself when I find myself asking the
:03:44. > :03:50.question, what is the mood in Brussels? But it can be, located.
:03:51. > :03:55.There is a mood in Brussels. -- it can be confiscated. I am very
:03:56. > :04:03.emotional because I born here. I think it is awful that our democracy
:04:04. > :04:07.is hurt in that way. Of course, there are questions being asked
:04:08. > :04:12.today. Is it something innate about cities, or this city, that makes
:04:13. > :04:18.murderous? Districts like Mullen Beek get overlooked, people go off
:04:19. > :04:23.the rails and get caught up in the insane and anti-social. Life passes
:04:24. > :04:27.them by. -- districts like Molenbeek. The challenge is to ease
:04:28. > :04:32.some of those problems while preserving what is good about
:04:33. > :04:38.Brussels and dense, urban life. On that theme of cities, you will hear
:04:39. > :04:50.more about that in the interview with Emily and Bernard Henri Levi
:04:51. > :04:54.later. I am here at the Place de la Bourse, and the mood is slightly
:04:55. > :04:57.hard to describe. There have been protests and chanting. Different
:04:58. > :05:03.groups making a point, some deeply moved and some just renting beer.
:05:04. > :05:07.And the media satellite wagons have circled the scene. -- just drinking
:05:08. > :05:11.beer. This is clearly one piece of the story of Brussels right now but
:05:12. > :05:15.most important, the victims and their families, the painful wait for
:05:16. > :05:21.news and for some, heartbreaking realisation of loss. That is what
:05:22. > :05:23.this is all about. And behind the investigation, the authorities
:05:24. > :05:28.trying to work out who did what and who has got away.
:05:29. > :05:31.Secunder Kermani has been looking at what we know
:05:32. > :05:34.The manhunt for the cell behind the attacks in Belgium.
:05:35. > :05:36.This was one raid in the city's district of Anderlecht.
:05:37. > :05:39.Belgian media initially reported they had netted Najim Laachraoui,
:05:40. > :05:41.an IS bomb-maker believed to be on the run.
:05:42. > :05:44.But it wasn't true and tonight there are reports he was one
:05:45. > :05:48.The others were two brothers from Brussels, Khalid
:05:49. > :05:58.One blew himself up at Zaventem airport.
:05:59. > :06:02.Six years ago, Ibrahim el-Bakraoui and two accomplices armed
:06:03. > :06:05.with assault rifles carried out a robbery at this money exchange.
:06:06. > :06:10.As they sped off, they were followed by police.
:06:11. > :06:12.Ibrahim, from his car, fired shots back at officers,
:06:13. > :06:15.injuring one of them before they were later arrested.
:06:16. > :06:18.He is just the latest example here of the crossover
:06:19. > :06:24.between violent criminals and violent jihadis.
:06:25. > :06:27.It was a flat where the brothers had been staying that was raided
:06:28. > :06:31.Police found a IS flag and 15 kilograms of home-made
:06:32. > :06:44.That's around 15 times the total amount used in the Paris attacks.
:06:45. > :06:47.And they also found evidence to suggest that the men may have
:06:48. > :06:48.brought forward plans to strike after the arrest
:06:49. > :06:53.It was during a search of these apartments here that police say
:06:54. > :06:55.they found a note from one of yesterday's suicide bombers.
:06:56. > :06:58.In it, apparently he reveals that he knew the authorities
:06:59. > :07:10.At the same street we have found a written testament by Ibrahim
:07:11. > :07:21.el-Bakraoui in which he states, in which he said:
:07:22. > :07:23."I don't know what to do.
:07:24. > :07:27.People are looking for me everywhere."
:07:28. > :07:30.What seems to be emerging is that yesterday's attacks were the work
:07:31. > :07:38.Khalid el-Bakraoui used a false ID to rent a flat in the Brussels
:07:39. > :07:44.Two men escaped, possibly Khalid and his brother.
:07:45. > :07:46.But inside, police found the DNA of Salah Abdeslam,
:07:47. > :07:49.a key figure in the Paris attacks, who was finally
:07:50. > :07:52.Back in September last year, Salah Abdeslam was driving a car
:07:53. > :07:54.stopped on the Austro-Hungarian border.
:07:55. > :08:02.On Friday, police revealed his real name was Najim Laachraoui.
:08:03. > :08:06.He is believed to have fought in Syria with Islamic State.
:08:07. > :08:09.He had rented a safe house used to prepare for the Paris attacks.
:08:10. > :08:11.His DNA was found on explosive material suggesting he may have
:08:12. > :08:14.helped them make the suicide belts in Paris and in Brussels.
:08:15. > :08:22.And it was either him or an accomplice who received a text
:08:23. > :08:26.message the night of the attacks in Paris reading, "We're off,
:08:27. > :08:30.we're starting", leading some to believe he helped direct
:08:31. > :08:35.He's also expected of involvement in yesterday's attacks.
:08:36. > :08:37.These individuals connected between Brussels and Paris have
:08:38. > :08:43.relied on very small networks with high levels of loyalties,
:08:44. > :08:46.sometimes with family support, which explains that it was extremely
:08:47. > :08:49.hard to track any exchange of information through cellphones
:08:50. > :08:52.and this explains why they have been able to remain under the radar
:08:53. > :09:10.The scale of the attacks has renewed scrutiny on Belgian security forces,
:09:11. > :09:12.despite their success in arresting Salah Abdeslam.
:09:13. > :09:15.Today, Turkey claimed one of the suicide bombers had been
:09:16. > :09:17.deported as a terrorism suspect last year but that Belgium had
:09:18. > :09:20.Tonight, there were calls for better intelligence corporation.
:09:21. > :09:32.Every country now should bring information about everybody
:09:33. > :09:35.who is considered dangerous, and bring it to a data file.
:09:36. > :09:39.In these attacks, in France and Belgium,
:09:40. > :09:41.it is quite clear that information was not shared enough.
:09:42. > :09:46.Useful information was not shared enough.
:09:47. > :09:49.And I insist, I think it is quite necessary now to enforce a European
:09:50. > :09:57.Today was still very much about the victims.
:09:58. > :10:00.The Belgian royal family came to pay their respects.
:10:01. > :10:03.But there are still suspects on the run and many are now asking
:10:04. > :10:12.whether this was an intelligence failure.
:10:13. > :10:16.I was talking earlier about the vulnerability and resilience of
:10:17. > :10:27.cities under attack and I'm pleased to be joined in the square by the
:10:28. > :10:31.press -- a Professor of urban studies in Brussels, and also a
:10:32. > :10:37.counsellor from the district of Forest, which was where an attempt
:10:38. > :10:41.was made to capture Salah Abdeslam last week before he was captured
:10:42. > :10:47.last Friday. Where do we start? A lot is being thrown at Belgium at
:10:48. > :10:52.the moment, people criticising its integration, criticising security.
:10:53. > :10:56.Let's hear a defence of Belgium because actually, we have had a taxi
:10:57. > :11:05.and lots of other places and it is not just Brussels that has suffered.
:11:06. > :11:12.I realise the image at the moment and I consider it as a former
:11:13. > :11:16.minister, and I am very sad at that. Of course we are shocked about what
:11:17. > :11:23.happened yesterday and we now that we are not naive, we have and just
:11:24. > :11:30.to give. But Brussels is not only that. Sometimes what I hear abroad
:11:31. > :11:36.from the international press and also sometimes from the Belgian
:11:37. > :11:40.press, is that Brussels is only that. Brussels is not that, Brussels
:11:41. > :11:46.is also a dynamic city, part of Europe of course. But Brussels is
:11:47. > :11:50.also the place where we put a lot of effort for the renovation of the
:11:51. > :11:55.city. It is important also for the citizens, for the young people, but
:11:56. > :12:00.also in what we call the social cohesion between all the different
:12:01. > :12:04.countries. Actually, Brussels is looking a bit ragged. It is looking
:12:05. > :12:09.a bit rundown in parts, even quite central parts. Quite untidy. I think
:12:10. > :12:16.you must visit some parts of Brussels, because it can seem like
:12:17. > :12:22.that but it is not. It is not like that. You know, there are lot of
:12:23. > :12:27.networks of solidarity, networks, social networks. Of course, we have
:12:28. > :12:32.some cultural forces, educational elements that need to work with
:12:33. > :12:39.young people, and also with parents. We need forces to do that. Eric, you
:12:40. > :12:47.are an urban expert, Mullen Beek, do you see that as accurate, the way it
:12:48. > :12:53.has been portrayed? -- Molenbeek. Well, it is a framing that is a
:12:54. > :12:58.narrow vision. Molenbeek is one of the canal neighbourhoods, or
:12:59. > :13:04.municipalities. The canal region was the old industrial area. Brussels is
:13:05. > :13:09.a city that was industrialised rapidly over 20 or 30 years from a
:13:10. > :13:12.main industrial city to a post-industrial city, becoming the
:13:13. > :13:19.European capital, an international city. And what happened is that that
:13:20. > :13:25.area, with popular neighbourhoods, is now an area of unemployed people,
:13:26. > :13:33.50% of youth unemployment, 30% of our young people living in families
:13:34. > :13:44.without income, and so we have a jewel city and Molenbeek is a
:13:45. > :13:47.derelict area as such. -- a dual city. But of course it is not
:13:48. > :13:54.because you are poor that you become a jihadi. That is still a marginal
:13:55. > :13:58.phenomenon. And the local economy, there is a network of proximity so
:13:59. > :14:03.at the same time, it is one of the most solidarity based areas of the
:14:04. > :14:08.city. Let's talk about some of the things that Belgium is doing wrong.
:14:09. > :14:14.Evelyn, you said that there were issues, clearly. What do you think
:14:15. > :14:18.those issues are? There is not one answer, of course. It is not a local
:14:19. > :14:22.question. It is an international question. It is an international
:14:23. > :14:28.question and the answer, it is also the question of the relationship
:14:29. > :14:30.between Europe and also the rest of the world. It is a question of the
:14:31. > :14:47.threat of arms. What has the arms trade got to do
:14:48. > :14:57.with it? When you find a Kalashnikov in an apartment... I see, the arms
:14:58. > :15:03.trade. When you find also Belgian arms in such a country, an Arabic
:15:04. > :15:10.city, it is a big question also in Belgium, it is the trade of the
:15:11. > :15:15.arms. And then it is also the collaboration between the different
:15:16. > :15:20.countries in Europe, between the police of course in Brussels, but
:15:21. > :15:29.also with the other countries, not only political, but the police
:15:30. > :15:36.coalition. Should we view what happened in Brussels yesterday as an
:15:37. > :15:40.attack on the concept of a city in general, or what special Brussels
:15:41. > :15:44.factors are there? This is an international city, how far should
:15:45. > :15:49.we think of it as a Brussels thing or a more general thing? It is a
:15:50. > :15:55.Brussels thing because Brussels is not only the capital of Belgium. I
:15:56. > :16:01.do not think it is an attack against Belgium, it is an attack against the
:16:02. > :16:06.capital of Europe, against the headquarters of Nato, against
:16:07. > :16:16.Brussels as an international hub. It has a continental
:16:17. > :16:20.influence. In that sense Brussels as a city in general is not the
:16:21. > :16:23.country. If you ask what are the weaknesses? In fact the Belgian
:16:24. > :16:26.state is a weak state and Brussels is a very multicultural and
:16:27. > :16:33.multilingual city. Does it work as a city? The civil society is very
:16:34. > :16:42.active and networks. Do people respect each other? We have a
:16:43. > :16:46.national question and back community question for 200 years and 400
:16:47. > :16:51.people have been killed over these two centuries. If you compare it
:16:52. > :16:56.with other multicultural cities, people do respect each other and the
:16:57. > :17:01.Belgians have a long tradition of compromise and arranging things and
:17:02. > :17:05.that is an example. Where you have a problem is you need investment in
:17:06. > :17:13.socialising people of such different kinds. My criticism is that for one
:17:14. > :17:16.year you have seen soldiers in the street and new investment in
:17:17. > :17:22.policemen, but at the same time a reduction in schools and in fact
:17:23. > :17:29.what is not done and that is the policy of the government. I agree
:17:30. > :17:33.completely. The answer to that is not only security. Of course we have
:17:34. > :17:40.to make the security of the citizen, but it is not only that. That is a
:17:41. > :17:44.short-term answer. We have to put money, but not only money, but also
:17:45. > :17:52.a recognition of education and of all these workers, the first level.
:17:53. > :17:58.We need to leave it there. Thank you both very much indeed. That is our
:17:59. > :18:02.coverage from Brussels. It is getting towards midnight here, still
:18:03. > :18:08.plenty of people around. It is a paradox that at this point people
:18:09. > :18:13.are told to avoid crowds and they reacts to yesterday's event by
:18:14. > :18:17.creating a crowded space like this. It shows how strong our instinct is
:18:18. > :18:18.to be together and to cluster at an important time.
:18:19. > :18:22.So as you heard, Turkey says it warned Brussels about the bomber
:18:23. > :18:24.and deported him from Turkey as a militant,
:18:25. > :18:26.a claim the Belgian authorities have denied.
:18:27. > :18:29.I asked our Defence Secretary Michael Fallon if he trusted
:18:30. > :18:30.the Belgian authorities and the intelligence
:18:31. > :18:38.I saw that report but I think it is far too early to start
:18:39. > :18:39.criticising the Belgian authorities until the
:18:40. > :18:43.investigation is complete, until we know exactly the movements
:18:44. > :18:48.The head of Europol, Rob Wainwright, has said
:18:49. > :18:52.that Isis has got a new, external command forced to transport
:18:53. > :18:59.Do you recognise that that is where Isis is directing its thoughts now?
:19:00. > :19:01.Not just London, but the streets of our
:19:02. > :19:06.Yes, we know that Daesh has an external attack planning
:19:07. > :19:10.operation that is designed to create mayhem on the streets of Western
:19:11. > :19:14.cities and London is not exempt from that.
:19:15. > :19:17.That is why we have to work together to combat it and it is why
:19:18. > :19:21.we are playing such a key part in the coalition against Isis
:19:22. > :19:27.And if that hit London, what would be that contingency plan?
:19:28. > :19:31.David Cameron suggested last November that up to 10,000 military
:19:32. > :19:34.personnel are available to support the police in dealing with that kind
:19:35. > :19:41.Is that right, 10,000 military personnel?
:19:42. > :19:44.Yes, that has been implemented, we have troops
:19:45. > :19:47.standing by now to back up the armed police.
:19:48. > :19:59.The armed police are the first response and they are being
:20:00. > :20:02.increased, so there are now more and please, more visible and railway
:20:03. > :20:05.stations and airports and a number of armed response vehicles
:20:06. > :20:08.is being increased in our big cities, so that is in hand.
:20:09. > :20:11.But as back up to come in behind the armed police we now have
:20:12. > :20:14.military in reserve and they are able to call on troops,
:20:15. > :20:16.some 5000 at 24 hours notice, and more
:20:17. > :20:21.It is glaringly hard to ignore that the EU has not been able
:20:22. > :20:25.The EU has open borders which we are not
:20:26. > :20:30.Happily we have control of our own borders,
:20:31. > :20:37.so we are a different category from that, but we benefit of course,
:20:38. > :20:40.we have in a way an advantage in both worlds.
:20:41. > :20:43.We keep control of our borders, but we
:20:44. > :20:45.benefit because we share the intelligence, the flight
:20:46. > :20:47.information and the cooperation that there is between security
:20:48. > :20:58.Not really because when you have got one of the French attackers
:20:59. > :21:01.whose phone shows he came to Birmingham, that he travelled
:21:02. > :21:06.It does not make sense that we have control of our borders or not.
:21:07. > :21:13.It does make sense because it is more difficult to get firearms into
:21:14. > :21:18.this country. You can travel across Europe and not get your car search
:21:19. > :21:24.because borders are open. Is the answer more cooperation and union?
:21:25. > :21:28.Certainly more cooperation. This is not the time for us to be leaving a
:21:29. > :21:32.partnership like the European Union. On the contrary, we should be
:21:33. > :21:38.sharing more information with each other. Would you like to see an EU
:21:39. > :21:43.intelligence agency? A body committed to intelligence with an EU
:21:44. > :21:48.title? I would like to see what is now happening, which is all the
:21:49. > :21:52.intelligence agencies and security forces across Europe beginning to
:21:53. > :21:57.pool more of the information, to help each other and to swap data
:21:58. > :22:03.about air traffic movements and to make sure everybody can benefit from
:22:04. > :22:06.it. When people come to you and say, you look at what has happened in
:22:07. > :22:13.Paris and in Belgium, you look at the fact that we do not, whatever
:22:14. > :22:17.you may say, entirely trust the security and intelligence services
:22:18. > :22:23.of other countries within the EU, why would you want to jeopardise the
:22:24. > :22:34.security of your citizens by leaving as an part of the union when we do
:22:35. > :22:35.not feel safe in it? We are not jeopardising the safety of our
:22:36. > :22:39.citizens. Where there is intelligence we can share across
:22:40. > :22:42.Europe, where we can tap into important information about movement
:22:43. > :22:42.of terrorists, it makes sense to do so.
:22:43. > :22:47.So what, if anything, do the attacks in Brussels tell us
:22:48. > :22:50.And does it make any clearer the answer to the inevitable
:22:51. > :22:53.question, whether Britain is safer or more exposed with the parameters
:22:54. > :22:57.Joining me now, Dan Hannan MEP and author of Why Vote Leave,
:22:58. > :22:59.and Charlie Faulkner Shadow Justice Secretary,
:23:00. > :23:12.Welcome to you both. Perhaps more than anything else, this idea of
:23:13. > :23:16.Theresa May, the Home Secretary, who kept us guessing for a long time
:23:17. > :23:22.about which way she would go, who knows more than anyone about the
:23:23. > :23:26.frustrations of dealing with EU institutions, has said loud and
:23:27. > :23:31.clear it would make us more safe if we remain. I was never guessing, it
:23:32. > :23:35.was always clear which way she should go. I have never ever heard
:23:36. > :23:41.her say anything other than we should stay in EU. Equally, the
:23:42. > :23:46.former head of our secret intelligence services has said we
:23:47. > :23:51.would be safer if we leave the EU. It is important to look at why.
:23:52. > :23:56.First of all, we would have the power to deport dangerous villains
:23:57. > :24:01.and we would be outside elements of immigration rules and we would have
:24:02. > :24:07.more control over who is coming in and leaving. It must be right if we
:24:08. > :24:12.are safer if we are in control of our own borders. If you can control
:24:13. > :24:17.what the ECJ does or what we do in terms of who we deport and sent
:24:18. > :24:22.home, you have got control. It is rubbish because the reason we cannot
:24:23. > :24:26.deport people is nothing to do with the European Union, it is the
:24:27. > :24:29.European Convention of human rights that prevents that. Richard Dearlove
:24:30. > :24:36.who uses that as his main argument is wrong. What about Abu Hamza? That
:24:37. > :24:42.was the European Union and the reason why it is because the
:24:43. > :24:49.European Convention on Human Rights. European Convention is an extra
:24:50. > :24:53.argument. You are wrong. As far as the argument is about why we are
:24:54. > :24:58.safer in Europe is because we have signed up to a specific number of
:24:59. > :25:03.European Union instruments would allow us to go into databases on
:25:04. > :25:09.fingerprints within 24 hours, number plates within five or 15 minutes and
:25:10. > :25:14.DNA within 15 minutes and we are having that information when people
:25:15. > :25:21.present themselves at your borders, or when you get DNA from a scene is
:25:22. > :25:25.a vital piece of evidence. If you are looking at terrorists who are
:25:26. > :25:29.crossing borders, to go out of the European Union you would have to
:25:30. > :25:34.leave these arrangements. Anybody who says we are safer outside those
:25:35. > :25:41.arrangements is talking absolute rubbish. The fingerprint comes under
:25:42. > :25:47.an odd word which we are meant to be signing up to which would make 143
:25:48. > :25:53.days to wait for fingerprinting happen in 15 minutes. It is hard to
:25:54. > :25:56.reject that. First, the alternative to the EU running elements of
:25:57. > :26:03.criminal justice is not that we do not talk to our immediate allies.
:26:04. > :26:07.For a long time before the EU there was the Hague Convention, Interpol,
:26:08. > :26:13.extradition deals, recognition of time spent in prisons, or of that
:26:14. > :26:20.existed and will continue to exist. Our intelligence sharing will carry
:26:21. > :26:25.on with our friends in Europe. It must move faster if you are part of
:26:26. > :26:29.it. We will have the choice on issues like the European arrest
:26:30. > :26:33.warrant. Iceland this month is debating whether to join the
:26:34. > :26:38.European arrest warrant. That is the choice for a post-EU democratic
:26:39. > :26:44.Britain. I hope we do not stay in it because we pay a high price. And we
:26:45. > :26:50.reject the ones we don't want, why can't we carry on doing that? He is
:26:51. > :26:55.and we withdraw and then try to re-negotiate. It is rubbish. He says
:26:56. > :27:00.we can go straight back into extradition arrangements. He will
:27:01. > :27:07.know that in 1995 a terrorist fled from Paris, came to Britain in 1995
:27:08. > :27:11.and was extradited under the pre-European arrest warrant
:27:12. > :27:16.arrangements seven years later. It was after the attempted bombings a
:27:17. > :27:23.week after 7/7, Hussain Osman, one of the terrorists, was extradited
:27:24. > :27:28.after two weeks. Would he not have been extradited, the same man who
:27:29. > :27:33.was caught on camera, running out of the tube station, you are telling me
:27:34. > :27:38.the Italians would not have extradited him without the European
:27:39. > :27:42.arrest warrant? I am telling you yes and before the European arrest
:27:43. > :27:48.warrant extradition is from Italy two years. I was the Secretary of
:27:49. > :27:52.State for Justice at the time. That is a practical reality of the
:27:53. > :27:55.European arrest warrant. A constituent of mine who was taken
:27:56. > :27:59.out of Southampton to seek treatment, his parents were detained
:28:00. > :28:04.by this awesome instrument that we were told was an anti-terrorism act.
:28:05. > :28:09.When you put that power in the hands of the authorities, as in his case,
:28:10. > :28:15.they use it routinely. So you are against it? You would not want us to
:28:16. > :28:25.rejoin the European arrest warrant outside the EU? What would that
:28:26. > :28:28.mean? I would not. It would mean we could not extradite terrorists in
:28:29. > :28:33.weeks and once they manage to get outside Britain it would take years
:28:34. > :28:36.to get them back in. What do countries who do not have the
:28:37. > :28:45.European arrest warrant do when there is a very clear case? It takes
:28:46. > :28:50.years. Is that not right? Yes or no? I had a boy who was celebrating his
:28:51. > :28:54.A-levels in Greece who spent two years an obviously false charges in
:28:55. > :28:58.a case of mistaken identity, 11 months in one of the worst prisons
:28:59. > :29:04.in Europe waiting for his case to come to trial and by the time he was
:29:05. > :29:08.finally cleared, the guys with whom he had been celebrating his A-levels
:29:09. > :29:15.had graduated. How do you give that back to a boy of his age? That is
:29:16. > :29:18.the reality. Are you not creating a bureaucratic nightmare every time
:29:19. > :29:23.you pull out of a system and have the time you want to readmit
:29:24. > :29:29.yourself and have the time you do not. The bureaucracy is never
:29:30. > :29:36.ending. But it is the bureaucracy that is the mess we are in now. It
:29:37. > :29:42.is like hanging a welcome sign over Europe for terrorists. Going back to
:29:43. > :29:49.security, do you think we are less secure out of the EU, less secure
:29:50. > :29:54.out of the EU? Without doubt we would be less secure. Terrorists are
:29:55. > :29:59.crossing borders to try to attack very many of the European countries.
:30:00. > :30:06.We need to cooperate. Our borders will not change. No, but we could
:30:07. > :30:11.enter into these arrangements where there are data sharing arrangements.
:30:12. > :30:16.We agreed to open our borders to the rest of the EU and it is now clear
:30:17. > :30:20.that the EU has opened its borders to the entire world. That was not
:30:21. > :30:27.the original deal and I fail to see how it makes us safer. And we do not
:30:28. > :30:32.have open borders. As a result of not having open borders, but having
:30:33. > :30:35.joined in the Schengen information sharing arrangements, we get full
:30:36. > :30:43.information about people trying to get into our country. The last
:30:44. > :30:47.question, on the back of a rather explicit text from one of your
:30:48. > :30:54.labour colleagues, what about this Labour list? You are up here and do
:30:55. > :31:01.not appear on it, are you core, core plus or neutral or hostile? Today Mr
:31:02. > :31:06.Iain Duncan Smith had said that the Prime Minister's economic policy was
:31:07. > :31:10.a total sham, yet Mr Cameron responded by referring to this silly
:31:11. > :31:12.list and he was able to distract attention from his own failure as a
:31:13. > :31:23.Prime Minister. In a clear shot, isn't it? --
:31:24. > :31:29.missing an open goal with a clear shot, isn't it? All Jeremy Corbyn
:31:30. > :31:33.has to do when the Prime Minister asks about the list, you will see
:31:34. > :31:35.him wriggling when he is referring to something as trivial as that.
:31:36. > :31:36.Thank you both for coming in. It's becoming increasingly clear
:31:37. > :31:41.this kind of terror recognizes no particular target,
:31:42. > :31:44.no state, no end and no aim. So what tools do we have to fight
:31:45. > :31:48.what is essentially endless random acts knitted clumsily together
:31:49. > :31:50.in the name of jihad? I asked the French philosopher
:31:51. > :31:53.Bernard Henri Levy, who has just returned from the frontline
:31:54. > :31:55.of Kurdistan, where he's been making It was a symbol with Charlie,
:31:56. > :32:07.it was a war with Bataclan and it is general war
:32:08. > :32:11.now with Brussels. Europe is living in
:32:12. > :32:17.a state of emergency. It is not only a war,
:32:18. > :32:22.it is a general war. This is the first point
:32:23. > :32:24.after what happened in Brussels. There is a will in Brussels
:32:25. > :32:31.to terrorise an entire city, You know, all the fascists
:32:32. > :32:43.in history, they commit genocide. These fascists, Isis,
:32:44. > :32:54.they want to commit genocide too, but maybe also, I don't know how
:32:55. > :32:57.to say it, metro-cide, Because city means civility,
:32:58. > :33:03.it means citizenship, it means spirit of cosmopolitanism,
:33:04. > :33:06.a city as itself is a great idea. We always hear people saying,
:33:07. > :33:15."We will be brave, we won't be cowed, we'll carry on,"
:33:16. > :33:17.but underneath all the rhetoric there is fear and people do
:33:18. > :33:23.change how they live. The only way to wage this battle
:33:24. > :33:28.I feel is to go to the core, to go to the brain of this war,
:33:29. > :33:30.the core, the brain, Isis is very different from Al-Qaeda
:33:31. > :33:39.because they mix the two models, the two patterns, the two paradigms,
:33:40. > :33:44.the paradigms of terror without state and the paradigms
:33:45. > :33:51.of terror with a state. They join the two models
:33:52. > :33:53.and this is their strength. This is why it is a new scale
:33:54. > :33:56.compared to Al-Qaeda. So there is a so-called Islamic
:33:57. > :34:05.State. The only way the West has to defeat
:34:06. > :34:11.them is to hit in their state there. I don't say it will be a miracle
:34:12. > :34:14.solution, we will still have, like a duck which continues to live
:34:15. > :34:17.even when he has no head, But if we destroy their
:34:18. > :34:25.headquarters, if we destroy the training camps, if we destroy
:34:26. > :34:33.the people who give orders and who planned Brussels,
:34:34. > :34:36.Paris, yesterday London, hopefully not, maybe tomorrow,
:34:37. > :34:42.if we destroy the heart, if we destroy the masterplan,
:34:43. > :34:44.it will be the beginning Many people will remember
:34:45. > :34:55.you were passionate about aiding When you look at Libya
:34:56. > :34:59.without Gaddafi does that seem The real comparison to do is Libya
:35:00. > :35:12.where we English and French intervened, and Syria
:35:13. > :35:14.where we washed our hands. The country is empty,
:35:15. > :35:17.millions of refugees, the destabilisation
:35:18. > :35:19.of Lebanon, of Turkey... But Libya is the next one,
:35:20. > :35:22.that will be the next part of Isis. Isis was born in Iraq and in Syria,
:35:23. > :35:29.not in Libya. They are trying to go now in Libya,
:35:30. > :35:32.but the real core of Isis If in August 2013 the English
:35:33. > :35:41.Parliament on one side and Barack Obama on the other
:35:42. > :35:45.side had not stopped the will of David Cameron
:35:46. > :35:47.to punish Bashar al-Assad, at the moment of the use
:35:48. > :35:49.of chemical weapons, There would probably not be these
:35:50. > :36:04.millions of poor people fleeing the war and the misery
:36:05. > :36:07.and the bombing of the two sides On a personal note, you were
:36:08. > :36:22.targeted by Belgian extremists. Do you understand why
:36:23. > :36:25.you became that target? You know, I became a target
:36:26. > :36:28.like so many people. When you are vocal against these
:36:29. > :36:44.people, you are inevitably a target. What they cannot stand is somebody
:36:45. > :36:47.who says that Islam as such is not evil, somebody who says
:36:48. > :36:49.there is a good Islam, that this good Islam
:36:50. > :36:51.should be reinforced. This is more intolerable for Isis
:36:52. > :36:58.probably than the one single-minded redneck who would say
:36:59. > :37:00.Islam is as itself. Donald Trump is their ally
:37:01. > :37:12.in a way, intellectually, of these
:37:13. > :37:14.people of Isis. They would never have an argument
:37:15. > :37:17.with Donald Trump as a symbol. Isis pleads for the war
:37:18. > :37:19.of civilisation. The idea of Isis is that Islam
:37:20. > :37:22.as a bloc should be against the West They try to gather all the Muslims
:37:23. > :37:29.of the world under their black flag in order to fight the West
:37:30. > :37:36.as a bloc. There are some people in the West
:37:37. > :37:39.who say exactly the same thing, that there should be
:37:40. > :37:41.a bloc against a bloc, an ideological battle between Islam
:37:42. > :37:44.as such and the West as such. The first risk is to say that jihad
:37:45. > :37:54.represents all Islam. This is horrible, false
:37:55. > :37:57.and it is a crime against the spirit But there is a symmetrical force
:37:58. > :38:05.which is to say that Islamism and jihadism has nothing
:38:06. > :38:07.to do with Islam. Jihadism with Islam,
:38:08. > :38:22.it has something to do, This is the question that has to be
:38:23. > :38:34.addressed to the widest Does it feel as if Europe
:38:35. > :38:38.is in trouble now? Do you think of it as a continent
:38:39. > :38:42.or a union in trouble? Europe might be in the
:38:43. > :38:45.process of dying today. The big mistake of my generation has
:38:46. > :38:56.been to believe that Europe was done, that it was finished,
:38:57. > :39:01.that it was inscribed, written in the sense of history
:39:02. > :39:04.and that whatever happens, Not true, there is no
:39:05. > :39:08.sense of history. And now there is clearly a collapse
:39:09. > :39:17.in Europe with Greece, with Brexit, if it happens,
:39:18. > :39:22.with the crisis of the refugees, with the borders, there
:39:23. > :39:25.is a collapse in our Europe, which would mean for European people
:39:26. > :39:27.more unemployment, more But it is a credible
:39:28. > :39:40.scenario today alas. And you see Brexit
:39:41. > :39:42.as a part of that? I think Brexit would
:39:43. > :39:52.be part of that. I am not an economist,
:39:53. > :39:54.but I know enough. I think it
:39:55. > :40:04.would not be good for British people and it would not be good for Europe
:40:05. > :40:08.and it will be one more signal for Europe as a whole
:40:09. > :40:09.of deconstruction, What would be a Europe
:40:10. > :40:19.without England? We leave you here in London,
:40:20. > :40:24.and a gesture of solidarity with the people of Brussels,
:40:25. > :41:11.as the capital's landmarks light up Good evening. The Easter weekend is
:41:12. > :41:15.looming large, but there is a change to much more unsettled conditions.
:41:16. > :41:16.It is pretty