:00:00. > :00:00.Shocking news for the steel industry tonight.
:00:07. > :00:09.Rather than invest new money, as some had hoped, Tata Steel
:00:10. > :00:15.reportedly wants to sell its UK operations.
:00:16. > :00:17.In Port Talbot, the news is just sinking in.
:00:18. > :00:23.We'll ask what future steel has in Britain.
:00:24. > :00:35.Is it time to take the propaganda seriously?
:00:36. > :00:38.We look at the evidence that North Korea is further down
:00:39. > :00:44.the nuclear path than we thought - a bigger threat than we feared.
:00:45. > :00:59.Harvey Proctor on his ordeal at the hands of the Met Police
:01:00. > :01:13.Is there any good reason that in a rich country
:01:14. > :01:27.Bitterly sad news breaking tonight for workers in the British
:01:28. > :01:32.It's not official, but it appears that Tata Steel -
:01:33. > :01:36.the company that is the successor to the old British Steel Corporation,
:01:37. > :01:39.which then became Corus - is said to want to sell
:01:40. > :01:46.The decision was reported out of a make or break meeting in Mumbai
:01:47. > :01:48.and among the assets being sold, the Port Talbot plant,
:01:49. > :01:52.which plays such an important part in the economic life in south
:01:53. > :01:59.Thousands more are employed elsewhere in the country, of course.
:02:00. > :02:01.The fear is that if no one wants to buy the assets,
:02:02. > :02:04.and they are losing hundreds of millions of pounds a year,
:02:05. > :02:17.Stephen Kinnock is the MP for the area and as with the delegation in
:02:18. > :02:24.Mumbai and has been given his reaction. The board of Tata Steel is
:02:25. > :02:31.not going to back the turnaround plan. That was presented to them.
:02:32. > :02:37.And they have asked their European board to look at all of the options
:02:38. > :02:44.for the future of the business and we then await the outcome of that.
:02:45. > :02:46.Clearly, one of those options is to look at looking for a buyer, an
:02:47. > :02:49.alternative buyer for the business. Simon Jack is the BBC's business
:02:50. > :03:02.editor and he joins me now Let us go through the best and worst
:03:03. > :03:08.scenarios, the best case tonight, what is the most optimistic it can
:03:09. > :03:14.be? The news that came out of Mumbai this evening in the last hour, we
:03:15. > :03:19.had this flurry of briefings and the deal they hoped to get done, but
:03:20. > :03:23.turnaround plan that would have seen Tata investing extra money as
:03:24. > :03:27.turning hundreds of millions of losses every year into a profit
:03:28. > :03:34.within two years, that was rejected. That is undoubtedly a big set back
:03:35. > :03:38.and the options were talking about is the sale of all the remaining
:03:39. > :03:43.businesses here the UK, they are already selling some of them but the
:03:44. > :03:48.long products business that Port Talbot performs the hub of would-be
:03:49. > :03:54.opera sale but whoever would want to buy a plant that is losing ?1
:03:55. > :03:58.million every day? When I spoke to the company they did not confirm it
:03:59. > :04:02.was up for sale but they did steer me in the direction of some of the
:04:03. > :04:06.other was Mrs which has shown an interest in the steel industry in
:04:07. > :04:13.this country, businesses like the liberty group, who have been in the
:04:14. > :04:19.process of buying some from the owners and grey ball capital, in the
:04:20. > :04:22.process of buying some of the business in Scunthorpe. They floated
:04:23. > :04:28.some of those names and there might well be a process and there is some
:04:29. > :04:31.scepticism. Liberty, whether they would want to take on something like
:04:32. > :04:37.this, but there must be some glimmer of hope but this is not the answer
:04:38. > :04:41.that unions and management wanted. The nightmare scenario is that
:04:42. > :04:45.companies like that might say they will have a little bit here and
:04:46. > :04:52.there but they do not want the bulk of the business, it is losing money,
:04:53. > :04:59.and Tata cannot make this work and if nobody buys this, we'll Tata tell
:05:00. > :05:08.us what the plan is? To shut it down or what? They will not tell us what
:05:09. > :05:11.the other planners. -- plan is. It is impossible to imagine that
:05:12. > :05:13.somebody could take over the business losing as much money as
:05:14. > :05:18.this and turn it around without major structural changes and job
:05:19. > :05:23.losses so there is uncertainty for the thousands of workers, many of
:05:24. > :05:26.whom whose jobs are still at risk and the government is making noises
:05:27. > :05:31.about looking at viable options but there does not seem to be that many
:05:32. > :05:38.viable options on the table, this sale is pretty much the last chance
:05:39. > :05:42.saloon. Simon, thank you. We will speak to somebody who works at the
:05:43. > :05:49.steel Talbot -- steel plant in Port Talbot. First, Angela Eagle. Simon
:05:50. > :05:56.is looking at the options, can you think of any the government at this
:05:57. > :06:01.point can look at? The steel industry is cyclical and at the
:06:02. > :06:06.moment we're in the middle of a perfect storm. Clearly, you have to
:06:07. > :06:11.try about what you can do about sheltering assets in the industry
:06:12. > :06:17.until this storm passes so you can keep a capacity as a country to keep
:06:18. > :06:20.creating and making your own steel, which is fundamental to the
:06:21. > :06:24.manufacturing industry. 20,000 people are directly employed in UK
:06:25. > :06:29.steel at the moment and many more are in the supply industries and the
:06:30. > :06:35.government should be pulling out all of the stops to make certain that we
:06:36. > :06:40.can preserve our capacity to make steel. One of the options is the
:06:41. > :06:47.government was simply by the industry for some notional amount,
:06:48. > :06:51.from Tata Steel, pick up the assets and become the Steward of those
:06:52. > :07:01.assets until the point at which it can sell them, effectively
:07:02. > :07:08.nationalisation. This has been done in other instances before and we do
:07:09. > :07:12.know that the assets you have in a steel-making plant have to be
:07:13. > :07:16.properly looked after or they will be lost forever, which is what we
:07:17. > :07:23.saw with the government letting the Redcar blast furnace be destroyed by
:07:24. > :07:30.inaction and it would be vandalism if they do that in this case. I do
:07:31. > :07:34.not want to get into Brexit at this point but this may come to bear on
:07:35. > :07:41.this but if the government did pick up this company and hold the assets,
:07:42. > :07:48.do their run foul of EU state aid regulations? There are ways in which
:07:49. > :07:54.you can ensure that you protect assets in this way and can negotiate
:07:55. > :08:03.with the -- with the EU and it is a bit much for those using... And all
:08:04. > :08:10.of the distress in the community is wondering what will happen to their
:08:11. > :08:16.future, in Port Talbot or Rotherham or South Yorkshire or parts of
:08:17. > :08:22.Scotland. We have to try to get the government to actually deliver on
:08:23. > :08:27.assertions from the Prime Minister that they want to preserve our
:08:28. > :08:32.capacity to make steel in this country and if not, we will see this
:08:33. > :08:39.Tonight at the Games said that the ant hypocrisy. -- this tea and
:08:40. > :08:46.sympathy. You do believe that steel has potential in this country? Yes,
:08:47. > :08:53.it is a foundation industry, we're on the cusp of huge investment in
:08:54. > :08:56.our own infrastructure and steel is a strategic industry for defence
:08:57. > :09:02.purposes and energy and every look at what is happening with you clear
:09:03. > :09:03.building, we have to preserve that and it will pay for itself in the
:09:04. > :09:07.end. Thank you. Joining me now from Port Talbot
:09:08. > :09:10.is Tony Taylor, who worked at the steel plant there for 44
:09:11. > :09:20.years and is now a councillor. What is your reaction to this news?
:09:21. > :09:31.It is unofficial but what is your reaction? I think some partial shock
:09:32. > :09:37.because we did not expect this today, we thought that Tata would
:09:38. > :09:42.get behind us and support the rescue plan and keep the faith at Port
:09:43. > :09:45.Talbot. Tata Steel have been marvellous players and have invested
:09:46. > :09:48.a lot of money in this plant and they have come to the end of their
:09:49. > :09:52.patients but just a little longer would have kept us in good stead and
:09:53. > :09:58.we hopefully could have kept this plant open for future generations. I
:09:59. > :10:05.am not saying we cannot do this, it could be a viable plan to some time
:10:06. > :10:10.in the future. Tony, who do you blame for the difficulties in the
:10:11. > :10:18.British steel industry, and they are not unique to Britain. But very
:10:19. > :10:22.intense difficulties in the UK? You have to look at the dumping of
:10:23. > :10:28.Chinese steel. They have been producing hundreds of millions of
:10:29. > :10:36.tonnes and virtually giving it away. We are unable to withstand that
:10:37. > :10:41.because we have been protecting the industry, protecting livelihoods and
:10:42. > :10:47.local jobs and that is one part of this. The heavy energy crisis, the
:10:48. > :10:51.plant behind me, it uses the same amount of energy as a city the size
:10:52. > :10:57.of Bristol or Cardiff, you can imagine the costs to pay for all of
:10:58. > :11:02.that so we have not been helped by the local government, the Welsh
:11:03. > :11:08.Government, the national government... Tony, thank you.
:11:09. > :11:11.What North Korea wants is a small nuclear device that can fit on a big
:11:12. > :11:15.missile - a ballistic missile that can exit the atmosphere,
:11:16. > :11:17.and then successfully re-enter and detonate its cargo almost
:11:18. > :11:25.If it has that, no-one will make fun of North Korea
:11:26. > :11:29.So how close is the country, to getting that technology?
:11:30. > :11:33.We all know there have been nuclear tests and the claim of a hydrogen
:11:34. > :11:36.bomb, but not the holy grail of a small device
:11:37. > :11:42.Now, Newsnight has had first sight of a new account of the North Korean
:11:43. > :11:44.nuclear programme from the respected defence analysts at IHS Jane's.
:11:45. > :11:46.They think it's possible the North does have a miniature device
:11:47. > :11:59.Newsnight has been told that North Korea is closer than thought
:12:00. > :12:02.to creating a nuclear device small enough to fit
:12:03. > :12:07.in to an intercontinental ballistic missile capable of hitting the US.
:12:08. > :12:11.New images and analysis obtained by Newsnight suggest that
:12:12. > :12:13.North Korea's nuclear programme may already have
:12:14. > :12:21.In recent weeks there has been a huge amount of rhetoric coming
:12:22. > :12:23.from North Korea, including a threat to directly attack
:12:24. > :12:28.To do that they would need to use an intercontinental ballistic
:12:29. > :12:30.missile, armed with a nuclear warhead.
:12:31. > :12:34.And there are huge challenges to that.
:12:35. > :12:37.But information given to Newsnight exclusively suggests they may be
:12:38. > :12:46.Analysts have carried out computer modelling based on this news report
:12:47. > :12:48.of Kim Jong-un visiting what is supposed to be a missile
:12:49. > :12:55.These images probably show mock-ups but the defence intelligence company
:12:56. > :12:59.IHS Jane's says there are sufficient details in the background to assess
:13:00. > :13:10.The crucial issues are, can they militarise a nuclear
:13:11. > :13:13.warhead and can they design what is known as a re-entry vehicle?
:13:14. > :13:16.The part of the missile that comes back into the atmosphere before
:13:17. > :13:21.If that is not designed correctly, it would simply burn up.
:13:22. > :13:23.I spoke to Rob Monks, the IHS Jane's expert who has
:13:24. > :13:29.collated the work of analysts based in the US.
:13:30. > :13:32.They have now done the computer modelling to calculate the static
:13:33. > :13:33.margin, which is basically the aerodynamic stability.
:13:34. > :13:39.And from that they have concluded that the North Koreans have both
:13:40. > :13:44.reduced the size and weight of a nuclear explosive device
:13:45. > :13:46.sufficiently to fit it inside a re-entry vehicle.
:13:47. > :13:50.And indeed that the design of the re-entry vehicle itself
:13:51. > :13:52.according to the computer modelling would appear to be viable.
:13:53. > :13:55.The second strand of evidence comes from satellites,
:13:56. > :13:57.radar images showing new roads and earthworks which could indicate
:13:58. > :14:06.We have used radar imagery for the first time to have a look
:14:07. > :14:08.Associated with the North Korean nuclear programme.
:14:09. > :14:11.And that appears to suggest there has actually been increased
:14:12. > :14:15.activity where media reporting suggested diminished activity.
:14:16. > :14:18.The third strand of evidence is a satellite image of a plutonium
:14:19. > :14:21.reprocessing facility that shows increased activity over
:14:22. > :14:27.North Korea is determined to keep working on this, so the effort
:14:28. > :14:38.And it provides some measure of how far they may be getting to the final
:14:39. > :14:39.goal of an intercontinental missile armed
:14:40. > :14:47.And so it would suggest they are getting closer to that.
:14:48. > :14:49.But North Korea already has the capability to mount a nuclear
:14:50. > :14:56.So the instability of their current leader may be the real threat
:14:57. > :15:04.I spoke to one source tonight who has got close knowledge
:15:05. > :15:07.of inside thinking at MI6 and he said that beyond these
:15:08. > :15:09.technical issues, the key factor is the assessment of
:15:10. > :15:16.Is he crazy enough to launch an unprovoked attack?
:15:17. > :15:19.The new images and analysis from IHS Jane's suggests North Korea
:15:20. > :15:23.is getting closer to its ambition of a nuclear armed intercontinental
:15:24. > :15:32.Probably some way off that yet, my intelligence source tells me
:15:33. > :15:34.that the role of China in restraining the leader
:15:35. > :15:43.The intent and increasingly the capability, it seems, is there.
:15:44. > :15:46.Joining me now is John Everard, former British ambassador to North
:15:47. > :15:49.And from New York, Richard Haass, former director of policy planning
:15:50. > :15:51.for the State Department, and currently president
:15:52. > :16:08.To start with a direct question. Who would you do no sleepover, Isis or
:16:09. > :16:12.North Korea at this point? At this point it is North Korea and over the
:16:13. > :16:17.next few years certainly that concern will grow. It is not geared
:16:18. > :16:21.to me that the US will find it tolerable to live in a situation
:16:22. > :16:26.where North Korea as you discussed, can put a small nuclear warhead on
:16:27. > :16:31.ballistic missile but could reach the western part of the US. Also
:16:32. > :16:35.concern that Isis and North Korea could do something together, how do
:16:36. > :16:41.we know North Korea under some circumstances would not make nuclear
:16:42. > :16:44.material available to a group like Isis for a considerable amount of
:16:45. > :16:48.currency. Again raises fundamental questions about whether this could
:16:49. > :16:53.or should all would be rather a tolerable to the next American
:16:54. > :16:59.president. Kim Jong-un is not the normal leader. Do you think he would
:17:00. > :17:05.ever contemplate using a nuclear weapon? I do. I think there is an
:17:06. > :17:08.assumption that seems to be growing but North Korea would never actually
:17:09. > :17:12.use its nuclear weapons for fear of the devastating counterattack. I
:17:13. > :17:16.think that assumption is dangerous. The North Koreans have made quite a
:17:17. > :17:18.few statements about the circumstances in which they would
:17:19. > :17:23.use their nuclear weapons. Which amount to what you might call a hair
:17:24. > :17:32.trigger policy. That they know they face of all the superiority by US
:17:33. > :17:37.allies and they say if provoked they would use nuclear weapon. That is
:17:38. > :17:43.very scary, basically they have got nuclear weapons and may get to the
:17:44. > :17:47.small nuclear device on the ballistic missile. It is scary,
:17:48. > :17:51.probably better not yet a weapon they can deliver over a long
:17:52. > :17:56.distance at their moving swiftly in that direction. Do you agree that
:17:57. > :17:59.they would contemplate using them because presumably they are the most
:18:00. > :18:04.likely user of a nuclear weapon on the planet at the moment. The answer
:18:05. > :18:10.is we do not know. Why would we want to run the risk question mark this
:18:11. > :18:13.country has committed slow motion genocide against its own people so
:18:14. > :18:17.it is quite possible the threat of retaliation does not discourage them
:18:18. > :18:23.or deter them. They are as bellicose and as armed regime that exists in
:18:24. > :18:26.the world so it is not obvious to me while we would want to run the risk.
:18:27. > :18:31.And I look at China, at South Korea and Japan, at my own country the US,
:18:32. > :18:36.we all allowed this situation to drift. These negotiations have done
:18:37. > :18:41.little except to give North Korea time to make the advances you have
:18:42. > :18:45.just discussed. And I do think at some point sooner rather than later
:18:46. > :18:50.the policy question will arise, are we prepared to live with this risk
:18:51. > :18:58.and this uncertainty or would it be better to do something about it.
:18:59. > :19:04.Then you put economic pressure on North Korea or contemplate some kind
:19:05. > :19:08.of military strike, be it a preventative military attack or if
:19:09. > :19:11.we ever get intelligence that North Korea for example has taken some
:19:12. > :19:16.missiles and seems to be leading them for launch, that we would
:19:17. > :19:20.launch ourselves. These are all worrisome scenarios. Why would
:19:21. > :19:26.anyone want to trust the judgment of the leadership of North Korea? What
:19:27. > :19:30.to think of the analysis? Most of it I agree with. It is important to
:19:31. > :19:33.understand, when you talk about trusting the judgment of the leader
:19:34. > :19:37.of North Korea, these people are not crazy. They calculate carefully but
:19:38. > :19:42.they play a different set of rules to the rest of us. But then the
:19:43. > :19:47.dignity of the regime is supreme. And we cannot be sure they're not
:19:48. > :19:54.prepared to risk nuclear war in defence of what they believe,
:19:55. > :19:58.however strange it may seem to us. We think there will be a big
:19:59. > :20:06.congress in North Korea in the month of May, the coronation of Kim
:20:07. > :20:09.Jong-un. Up until then they cannot afford to show weakness and we can
:20:10. > :20:11.expect to see more provocations, more missile launchers and more
:20:12. > :20:14.difficult actions by North Korea in that time. Worrisome conversation.
:20:15. > :20:17.Thank you both. Having heartily showered our faces
:20:18. > :20:20.in eggs last year, you might think we'd run a million miles
:20:21. > :20:23.from opinion polls in the run up But hey, we just
:20:24. > :20:25.can't help ourselves. So let's think about the referendum
:20:26. > :20:28.polls for the next few minutes, because there is a rather
:20:29. > :20:30.interesting feature of them. The phone polls indicate the Remain
:20:31. > :20:33.side is in the lead, the internet
:20:34. > :20:42.polls make it too close to call. If you want to predict the result,
:20:43. > :20:46.it could all hinge on which of those Our Policy Editor Chris Cook has had
:20:47. > :20:52.an exclusive look at a piece of work by Populus, a pollster,
:20:53. > :20:55.and Matt Singh, an analyst who - almost uniquely - called the last
:20:56. > :21:05.general election correctly. Pollsters do not make money from
:21:06. > :21:12.politics but it is where their biggest problems come from. In 2015,
:21:13. > :21:17.1982, 1970. But a new report out tonight Casa big question on how the
:21:18. > :21:24.industry built samples for opinion polls.
:21:25. > :21:28.This has become a pressing issue because of the European referendum.
:21:29. > :21:33.Pollsters have got to get into our homes, into our heads and work out
:21:34. > :21:37.what we're inking about this rather unusual question. They have got a
:21:38. > :21:40.mystery to solve. When they poll people online they seem to get one
:21:41. > :21:47.set of answers from British people and when they pull them by telephone
:21:48. > :21:51.they seem to be getting another. Populous work for the Conservatives
:21:52. > :21:55.and the Leave campaign and they commissioned an outside analysts to
:21:56. > :21:55.help them work out what was going on.
:21:56. > :21:58.Now as part of this research Populus conducted a number of polls.
:21:59. > :22:00.For example they did what you might call
:22:01. > :22:03.That found that Leave was six points ahead.
:22:04. > :22:06.They also did what you might call the classic telephone poll
:22:07. > :22:09.and that found that Remain was 11 points ahead.
:22:10. > :22:12.So a massive 16 percentage points gap that gives different
:22:13. > :22:26.The report works out things by asking the same question to the two
:22:27. > :22:29.routes and comparing the answers and back in fact -- by comparison to the
:22:30. > :22:33.British election study, a unique bowl quite unlike any other full
:22:34. > :22:36.stop high quality face-to-face samples of the best we have in
:22:37. > :22:42.survey research for two main reasons. One example from postcode
:22:43. > :22:44.address files and randomly dealt within households so pretty much
:22:45. > :22:51.everyone has the chance to be included in the sample. Then they
:22:52. > :22:54.also make extra effort to do with beaded call-backs if people are out
:22:55. > :22:59.or try to persuade them to participate and get response rates
:23:00. > :23:02.which are quite high. The independent researcher on the
:23:03. > :23:08.project was Matt sing, the analyst behind number cruncher policies. It
:23:09. > :23:11.finds that the importance of online polls offer I do not know optional
:23:12. > :23:17.front whereas the telephone polls do not. A section of voters if prompted
:23:18. > :23:20.with a do not know optional, they will tend to say do not know. In
:23:21. > :23:24.reality they do not seem to be undecided because if they are not
:23:25. > :23:30.wanted with the do not know optional, they go but heavily
:23:31. > :23:33.towards Leave. So from that we take that the effect of adding a do not
:23:34. > :23:36.know optional on the online poll that is not there on the ballot
:23:37. > :23:41.paper tends to increase the level of do not know heavily at the expense
:23:42. > :23:44.of Remain. That explains around one third of the gap between telephone
:23:45. > :23:46.and online polls. Now a major issue identified
:23:47. > :23:48.by this research is with That is how pollsters
:23:49. > :23:51.select respondents and Now if we go back to that gold
:23:52. > :23:55.standard British elections studies survey that we mentioned earlier,
:23:56. > :23:58.we find around 32% of British people think racial equality has
:23:59. > :24:01.not gone far enough. And if we ask people the same
:24:02. > :24:04.question in an online poll, If we asked them on the phone poll,
:24:05. > :24:11.around 40% of people think that. So you can see from those answers
:24:12. > :24:14.that phone polls are a bit more liberal, if you like,
:24:15. > :24:16.than the national average and online polls are a bit more
:24:17. > :24:30.socially conservative. When you adjust the samples so that
:24:31. > :24:33.answers to these kind of questions matched the British election survey,
:24:34. > :24:35.half of the gap between online polls and telephone poles disappears.
:24:36. > :24:38.So we have a 16 percentage point gap between the two sorts of polls
:24:39. > :24:43.First of all, the different treatment of don't knows,
:24:44. > :24:47.that adds around five percentage points to the gap.
:24:48. > :24:49.The fact there are too many conservatives in the samples built
:24:50. > :24:51.by online pollsters, that adds around three percentage
:24:52. > :24:56.The fact there are too many liberals in the samples built
:24:57. > :25:00.by phone pollsters, that adds around five percentage points to the gap.
:25:01. > :25:03.There are still three percentage points we cannot account
:25:04. > :25:05.for but you can see from this, this research indicates
:25:06. > :25:13.that the right answer as far as we can tell might be a bit closer
:25:14. > :25:17.to the phone pollsters than it is to the online pollsters.
:25:18. > :25:26.It appears that the online polls are too much towards Leave and telephone
:25:27. > :25:28.1's a bit too much towards Remain. From the work we have done it
:25:29. > :25:33.appears that the truth is probably between the two but closer to what
:25:34. > :25:40.the telephone ones are saying. To put numbers on it we would say about
:25:41. > :25:44.two thirds of the way towards phone opinion polls. We will know who is
:25:45. > :25:48.right until the votes are counted and China will determine much of
:25:49. > :25:51.that. In the short term we can say things look a bit better for Remain
:25:52. > :25:55.then a crude average of the polls would suggest. And in the medium
:25:56. > :25:56.term the pollsters need to start thinking about how they will
:25:57. > :25:59.samples. Harvey Proctor - former Tory MP -
:26:00. > :26:02.has had a traumatic 18 months. He was investigated
:26:03. > :26:04.in Operation Midland, never charged or arrested
:26:05. > :26:07.but investigated for murder, torture and historic sexual
:26:08. > :26:11.abuse of young boys. All on the basis of the testimony
:26:12. > :26:14.of one man, known as Nick. Well, Operation Midland has closed,
:26:15. > :26:19.Mr Proctor has no case to answer and has written a book of his life
:26:20. > :26:33.and his recent experience. He joins me now. You have placed a
:26:34. > :26:37.copy of the book on the table. We spoke about this case in August
:26:38. > :26:42.before you were told there was to be no charge. At the time you called it
:26:43. > :26:48.a homosexual witchhunt. I wonder now it is past, do you still see it that
:26:49. > :26:54.way? The following day, someone contacted my solicitor and
:26:55. > :27:00.reinforced what I had said on your programme. It is in the book, I will
:27:01. > :27:05.not go into details tonight, but I do think that certain elements of
:27:06. > :27:10.the Metropolitan Police are homophobic. They have been other
:27:11. > :27:14.people obviously who have been through the mill but you have been
:27:15. > :27:18.through. Who are not gay and have not, no one has ever suggested they
:27:19. > :27:22.are and I wonder whether a better or different way to look at it is just
:27:23. > :27:26.that the police did not use to take these things seriously and now have
:27:27. > :27:29.thought, by goodness, we've got to take these things more seriously and
:27:30. > :27:34.perhaps gone off in the other direction. The pendulum has swung
:27:35. > :27:44.because of the nature of those involved in the investigation. Again
:27:45. > :27:49.I cover that in the book. What you mean, the pendulum has swung, you
:27:50. > :27:52.think it has too far? I think quite a number of people think it has
:27:53. > :28:01.swung too far. I believe that the best interests of the genuine victim
:28:02. > :28:08.and survivor of child sexual abuse is to restore it to a better balance
:28:09. > :28:14.between suspect and complainant. You do not disagree when police say we
:28:15. > :28:17.have got to follow what allegations? Of course the police have got to
:28:18. > :28:23.investigate, it is the manner of the investigation. The calling of the
:28:24. > :28:29.witness, credible and true, before they had even got any corroboration,
:28:30. > :28:35.any other evidence whatsoever and before they had spoken to me or the
:28:36. > :28:38.other people who were alive. You put a lot of attention on the police.
:28:39. > :28:45.Just tell me about your reaction if you like to the rest of society at
:28:46. > :28:51.the media, the way these things are covered, the public and their view
:28:52. > :28:56.of these issues. Do you have, the politicians, who has stood and
:28:57. > :29:00.watched people like you in the dock for over a year. I just wonder if
:29:01. > :29:06.you think it is a bigger thing than just the police. The police are the
:29:07. > :29:11.driving force in this. But certain politicians have put pressure on
:29:12. > :29:17.certain ministers, namely the Home Secretary, to establish for example
:29:18. > :29:23.a so-called independent enquiry to child sexual abuse. This enquiry is
:29:24. > :29:25.one of two enquiries that the Metropolitan Police have suggested
:29:26. > :29:32.should investigate their own misdeeds. Quite strongly. The
:29:33. > :29:37.Goddard enquiry, the big overarching went into all allegations, came into
:29:38. > :29:41.law. You said you do not want to be part of that. It has become an
:29:42. > :29:47.industry and it is not the right formula for investing --
:29:48. > :29:51.investigating Operation Midland. It was set up to do something
:29:52. > :29:54.different. Not to investigate the police and their ways of getting it
:29:55. > :30:05.wrong this last 18 months. I would separate those things and I
:30:06. > :30:11.believe the enquiry has become an industry and an ongoing enquiry that
:30:12. > :30:16.was supposed to end in six years but it will never end, it will go on. I
:30:17. > :30:21.am interested in this because when you talk to older people, they will
:30:22. > :30:26.often have tales of a teacher or a neighbour or somebody who did to
:30:27. > :30:31.them when they were young, things that would be called sexual assault.
:30:32. > :30:38.Fondling and groping, not murder or torture or rape, but lots of people
:30:39. > :30:45.have those stories. What is society meant to do with that history? That
:30:46. > :30:49.backlog of cases, having changed our view is so markedly towards that,
:30:50. > :30:55.taking it much more seriously? It is a question of rarities and I think
:30:56. > :31:00.the Metropolitan Police and other forces have got their priorities
:31:01. > :31:06.wrong. They should concentrate on current abuse, not historic abuse.
:31:07. > :31:11.And where historic abuse is investigated, they have to have even
:31:12. > :31:19.more corroboration land in present cases. Tell me how you are now? You
:31:20. > :31:24.have been deeply traumatised, he said it had ruined your life. You
:31:25. > :31:31.said you had lost your job, your home, tell me what your mature real
:31:32. > :31:36.circumstances are? I do not know what I am going to do, I am hoping
:31:37. > :31:42.that something may come of this, I am not wealthy, I need to work. I
:31:43. > :31:45.need the money and all of my planning was based on continuing to
:31:46. > :31:51.work, at least for another six years, and all of that has gone by.
:31:52. > :31:56.So I need something to happen. I have got no plans. The plan was to
:31:57. > :32:03.write the book, I have written the book 's. You were always known as a
:32:04. > :32:08.very right-wing member of the Conservative party. Just right. Have
:32:09. > :32:15.you become more socially liberal over the years? Partly through this?
:32:16. > :32:21.It is for others to judge. I always believed that I was dead centre of
:32:22. > :32:26.my political spectrum, others fell to the left or right and on some
:32:27. > :32:30.issues, you might be regarded as right-wing... Have you moved to the
:32:31. > :32:37.left as you have grown older? When you see the way that gay men have a
:32:38. > :32:46.better time than you did in the 1970s and 1980s? I am pleased about
:32:47. > :32:51.that for them. Not for you? I have been much too preoccupied with my
:32:52. > :32:57.own difficulties. I have every right to have been preoccupied and I had
:32:58. > :33:02.to take on the Metropolitan Police from what they have been doing to me
:33:03. > :33:04.and others. And it has been a hard fight and a hard struggle. Harvey
:33:05. > :33:08.Proctor, thank you. Walk around any city in the UK,
:33:09. > :33:11.and you will not be surprised to encounter people sleeping
:33:12. > :33:15.on the streets, tucked up The published numbers of street
:33:16. > :33:22.sleepers have been rising sharply. The stories of how people end up
:33:23. > :33:24.there are often complicated. And you probably don't have time
:33:25. > :33:27.to hear them let alone But here's a question:
:33:28. > :33:34.in 100 years' time, when future people look
:33:35. > :33:36.back on our society, will they ask how we
:33:37. > :33:38.tolerated rough sleeping? It surely can't cost that much
:33:39. > :33:41.to make sure everybody has a bed, or mental health
:33:42. > :33:43.provision if necessary? Well, we'll ask why the problem
:33:44. > :33:45.is unsolved in a few minutes, but first, the voice of rough
:33:46. > :33:47.sleepers themselves. This piece was put together for us,
:33:48. > :33:55.by the film-maker Dave Young. You want to know what it's
:33:56. > :33:57.like to be homeless? On a day-to-day basis I'm
:33:58. > :34:01.surrounded by crackheads, It's not like I want to be involved,
:34:02. > :34:07.but it's a road I found myself on. Like many people on this road,
:34:08. > :34:10.their lives are so complex It is probably the reason why we're
:34:11. > :34:13.all in this mess. And we don't even
:34:14. > :34:17.control the lights. And when it's windy and blistering
:34:18. > :34:20.cold in the darkest of November's nights, our only wish
:34:21. > :34:22.is to feel warm inside. A luxury we all miss,
:34:23. > :34:32.like a sweet kiss. I split with my wife,
:34:33. > :34:36.lived on a barge. The barge caught fire,
:34:37. > :34:40.I lost everything. I ended up with what I was wearing
:34:41. > :34:45.and ?26 in my pocket. The key worker told me I would be
:34:46. > :34:49.on the streets for six months. After that six months,
:34:50. > :34:51.the council could still take two Up until recently, Bristol only ever
:34:52. > :35:03.admitted to seven homeless people. And it's probably gone over
:35:04. > :35:15.the 200 mark now. And they all have their scared look
:35:16. > :35:21.on their face. I used to drive coaches
:35:22. > :35:31.all around the UK. My Nan died and I got kicked out
:35:32. > :35:35.by my uncle because the house I have a big problem,
:35:36. > :35:46.because I'm in a tent, I can't get my driving licence
:35:47. > :35:48.changed because I don't So without having my license
:35:49. > :35:55.updated, to this new address, If it is after seven then I can go
:35:56. > :36:15.20 minutes to Sainsbury's. But if I do, I stay in the tent
:36:16. > :36:30.in my sleeping bag and just I have been homeless for seven
:36:31. > :36:44.and a half months. In the town centre to start
:36:45. > :36:47.with but I was very anxious of night We were in a little two-man tent
:36:48. > :36:53.to start with and then somebody donated his tent and you can
:36:54. > :36:57.see behind us. If it was not for the general
:36:58. > :37:09.public, we would be knackered. If I have to find a job,
:37:10. > :37:15.I actually have to take all of my luggage to my job with me,
:37:16. > :37:18.which is not viable, As well is that, I have
:37:19. > :37:29.to carry my dirty stuff with my clean stuff,
:37:30. > :37:32.find somewhere to wash it and try it, put it all back
:37:33. > :37:34.into the same place. From months of walking,
:37:35. > :37:40.not wearing proper shoes. But I cannot help that,
:37:41. > :37:42.I cannot afford shoes. I live in a winter
:37:43. > :37:56.shelter as of the moment. We get fed at about 7:30am
:37:57. > :38:02.in the morning and then, until about 8.30pm at night,
:38:03. > :38:05.there is nothing else to eat. When we do have money,
:38:06. > :38:13.we're having to spend that money on fast food because it is not
:38:14. > :38:17.like we have the resources to cook We cannot store food,
:38:18. > :38:24.we cannot even store our clothes. I became homeless when my
:38:25. > :38:28.sister lost her house. The first night was
:38:29. > :38:33.terrible, definitely. I was sitting there,
:38:34. > :38:38.crying to myself, thinking, I cannot believe, all I want to do
:38:39. > :38:48.as a 26-year-old is just a normal We come here at eight o'clock
:38:49. > :38:53.at night time and then we get called Because I go to college
:38:54. > :38:57.two days a week. Those two days I'm OK and some days,
:38:58. > :39:00.even if I don't have college, I would be in the library
:39:01. > :39:03.doing my work, to kill the time off. It is great to have somewhere that
:39:04. > :39:09.you can go to at night and you can lie down, it is warm,
:39:10. > :39:13.you get good food, warm food to eat. My parents told me to ignore
:39:14. > :39:20.homeless people on the streets because they obviously
:39:21. > :39:22.declined the help. But I could never
:39:23. > :39:25.really accept that. I have now seen it first-hand
:39:26. > :39:28.and I'm meeting people, all different age groups,
:39:29. > :39:29.ethnicities, genders, We're handing over our fate
:39:30. > :39:38.and someone else is in control I think there is a system in place
:39:39. > :39:44.but it is not a system designed for helping people, it is a system
:39:45. > :39:47.designed for keeping people I decided to start helping other
:39:48. > :39:53.people. And I managed to get three people
:39:54. > :40:00.off the streets, into housing. In a washing machine
:40:01. > :40:07.factory in Bristol. And if I can do it, why can't
:40:08. > :40:15.an institute like the council do it? Basically, it is a problem
:40:16. > :40:18.all around Manchester, the homeless. But if you haven't got a local
:40:19. > :40:26.connection, you are not a priority. That is why I became homeless
:40:27. > :40:32.because I had to leave my house due to an ex-partner,
:40:33. > :40:35.for personal reasons. I went travelling and lost
:40:36. > :40:39.my local connection. They give you shelters but they only
:40:40. > :40:44.give you shelters for so long and then they kick you out
:40:45. > :40:46.again so you are back They need to sort it out,
:40:47. > :40:50.really, because it is It is just getting worse,
:40:51. > :40:57.it is never getting better. I have been living like this
:40:58. > :41:01.for a year and I am sick of it. It is my own fault because I
:41:02. > :41:05.walked out of my job. I walked out because I
:41:06. > :41:09.could not cope any more. I don't take drugs,
:41:10. > :41:11.I don't do whatever, On average I read about
:41:12. > :41:16.three novels a week. To escape from the reality
:41:17. > :41:19.of what I am living in. Whenever you put yourself in a book
:41:20. > :41:23.you could be anywhere. Anywhere in the world,
:41:24. > :41:25.doing anything. I just don't know whose
:41:26. > :41:30.dream I am living. Voices from a city street near you,
:41:31. > :41:52.put together by Dave Young. Back to our main story tonight now -
:41:53. > :41:57.the expected announcement from Steel giant Tata to sell its
:41:58. > :41:58.loss-making UK business. Chris Cook is our policy editor
:41:59. > :42:09.and has been speaking to people What are they saying? What I was
:42:10. > :42:15.struck by is they are going beyond platitudes and say how devoted they
:42:16. > :42:19.are to the steel industry but contrary to what Angela Eagle said
:42:20. > :42:21.earlier, they are concerned by the prospect of putting the government
:42:22. > :42:27.in as a backstop because they believe they could run up very big
:42:28. > :42:31.bills and they could run into the EU Commission. They are talking about
:42:32. > :42:36.facilitating a deal, a private sector solution, putting up
:42:37. > :42:40.government cash through loans and guarantees and talking about using
:42:41. > :42:45.procurement to swing more business that way. On their own, they will
:42:46. > :42:49.not rescue Port Talbot but they were things that might make it easier for
:42:50. > :42:53.a private sector solution. You can do some of those things and not rub
:42:54. > :43:00.against the state aid? Exactly. Thank you. That is all we have time
:43:01. > :43:01.for. We will hear more about that story tomorrow. From all of us, good
:43:02. > :43:16.night. Today was a day of sunshine and
:43:17. > :43:21.showers and tomorrow will be sunshine and showers but they are
:43:22. > :43:24.not the same and there will be fewer showers around tomorrow, still some
:43:25. > :43:28.heavy ones knocking about what a good chance that you will avoid them
:43:29. > :43:30.and see lots of fine weather. This is a snapshot from mid-afternoon,
:43:31. > :43:31.you