:00:00. > :00:07.The biggest industrial headache in this country for many years.
:00:08. > :00:10.With no time to waste, an enormous decision to be taken
:00:11. > :00:24.I do not think that nationalisation is the solution because everybody
:00:25. > :00:30.would want a long-term viable solution. I am shocked, the Business
:00:31. > :00:32.Secretary's job is to ensure that jobs are maintained.
:00:33. > :00:37.And if not, is there life after steel?
:00:38. > :00:43.And ever since it has gone, it is like a ghost city.
:00:44. > :00:50.Thank God he has really large ears, the biggest ears I have ever seen.
:00:51. > :00:53.I would like to punch him in the face, I tell you.
:00:54. > :00:55.He has no shortage of insults for people
:00:56. > :00:59.But does Donald Trump have a problem with women?
:01:00. > :01:10.Targeted by ISIS, reconstructed by lasers and 3D printing.
:01:11. > :01:22.Is this the future of preserving ancient architecture?
:01:23. > :01:26.Britain has not been keen on industrial intervention -
:01:27. > :01:31."It's throwing good money after bad," it's said.
:01:32. > :01:33.But that laid-back, laissez-faire approach
:01:34. > :01:36.is meeting its stiffest challenge ever.
:01:37. > :01:40.Are we really willing to do nothing and watch our steel
:01:41. > :01:45.Remember, when Britain let Rover go under, we already had a new car
:01:46. > :01:47.industry in place - but that's not where
:01:48. > :01:52.Needless to say, arguments for some kind of help are swirling around.
:01:53. > :01:54.We need a steel industry for defence.
:01:55. > :01:59.We shouldn't let others steal the market from us by
:02:00. > :02:05.And some say it's a temporary problem, not a permanent one -
:02:06. > :02:13.We will test some of these points later on, but the dilemma is stark -
:02:14. > :02:22.Let's start with our policy editor, Chris Cook.
:02:23. > :02:28.Today's bad news may be all about Port Talbot in south
:02:29. > :02:30.Wales, but you have to look further afield to see
:02:31. > :02:34.Tata Steel itself is based in Mumbai in India,
:02:35. > :02:37.and that is where the decision was made.
:02:38. > :02:40.But the country with the biggest impact on the global steel industry
:02:41. > :02:44.is China, and any attempts by the UK Government to support British Steel
:02:45. > :02:46.would be subject to review by the European
:02:47. > :02:55.Now, steel is an essential material for modern
:02:56. > :03:02.Behind me here is part of the giant Crossrail works.
:03:03. > :03:04.This is built using Tata steel, in this
:03:05. > :03:13.The problem isn't with demand so much, it is really with supply.
:03:14. > :03:21.China, once upon a time, imported steel. The same time it was building
:03:22. > :03:25.a domestic industry. Between 2012 and 2015, supplied meets demand and
:03:26. > :03:31.the price for steel products in China more than halved. There is new
:03:32. > :03:37.Chinese producers and they started to export. Chinese sales abroad
:03:38. > :03:43.rising as domestic prices fell so in a few short years, China swinging
:03:44. > :03:47.from a voracious customer to fierce competitor. This is not like the
:03:48. > :03:52.problems facing banks in 2000 and eight, when you are on the verge of
:03:53. > :03:58.having no big banks at all. Too many steelmakers in the world. Some argue
:03:59. > :04:02.we should save our own steelmakers. We should not be looking for charity
:04:03. > :04:07.or sentimental reasons for keeping this but there are clearly some
:04:08. > :04:11.benefits, not for every company, but with proximity, integration to the
:04:12. > :04:14.supply chain and if the car manufacturing base in the north-east
:04:15. > :04:20.was integrated to the metals manufacturing in the West Midlands,
:04:21. > :04:24.they can create real advantages over steel producers in China which
:04:25. > :04:30.cannot react to market demands and going forwards into flexible forms
:04:31. > :04:33.of production, having a base in the UK could be an advantage going
:04:34. > :04:40.forwards, if we can keep advisable in the short-term. There are also
:04:41. > :04:45.human costs to mass unemployment. You can see the trauma in many
:04:46. > :04:48.former mining times and bad experience suggest you cannot
:04:49. > :04:53.underestimate the potential fiscal costs either. Andrew, a left-wing
:04:54. > :04:57.economist, estimates it would have been cheaper to pay the costs of
:04:58. > :05:00.keeping 31 minds open in the 1990s and paying the bill for the miners
:05:01. > :05:05.but Britain would not be allowed to prop up Port Talbot. It is a
:05:06. > :05:11.founding principle of the EU that states should not be allowed to tilt
:05:12. > :05:15.the playing field in favour of the own companies by putting up or years
:05:16. > :05:21.to foreign companies or by offering subsidies. That last real, the state
:05:22. > :05:25.aid rules, could get in the way of helping a company like Tata Steel in
:05:26. > :05:30.Britain. There are limited exceptions to this rule is on
:05:31. > :05:37.subsidies. One relates to so-called rescue aid. It is permissible in
:05:38. > :05:42.tightly defined circumstances and has to be with a view to restoring
:05:43. > :05:48.the business to its long-term health and it is considered very much a
:05:49. > :05:53.temporary measure. Since the European Commission estimates Europe
:05:54. > :05:58.has 15% too much steel-making capacity, selling the rescue would
:05:59. > :06:01.be tough but the EU might be handy cover for Britain. The government is
:06:02. > :06:05.not keen to end up with a loss-making business on the balance
:06:06. > :06:10.sheet. I do not think that nationalisation is the solution
:06:11. > :06:13.because everyone would want a long-term, viable solution and if
:06:14. > :06:17.you look at Europe and elsewhere, nationalisation is rarely the
:06:18. > :06:21.answer, if you take into account the challenges the industry faces but
:06:22. > :06:24.there are solutions to this once we understand the situation better and
:06:25. > :06:30.we want to make sure we explored them. What might the ministers do?
:06:31. > :06:33.Britain is against raising Europe-wide tariffs on Chinese
:06:34. > :06:40.steel, noting the pain it would cause to steel buyers. Labour has
:06:41. > :06:44.supported intervention and measures against Chinese steel. I went to
:06:45. > :06:50.meet the President of China to press on him but very demand. It seems to
:06:51. > :06:54.me that too many people are not prepared to say to the Chinese
:06:55. > :06:58.government, sorry, your behaviour is not right, not fair and not proper
:06:59. > :07:02.and not within the rules of the World Trade Organisation. If they
:07:03. > :07:06.are to avoid closing this chapter in steel-making history, what options
:07:07. > :07:11.have ministers got? They could cut energy costs or they could buy more
:07:12. > :07:16.British Steel or they could help finance a sale. But that needs
:07:17. > :07:21.someone to take the plant on. The killer question is- who might not be
:07:22. > :07:23.and what might they save? Chris Cook.
:07:24. > :07:26.You can read the history of the European steel industry over
:07:27. > :07:29.the last 50 years, and it comes across as one manifest crisis
:07:30. > :07:32.after another - a recession each decade, excess supply,
:07:33. > :07:37.attempts by Europe to manage things, thwarted by the desire of each
:07:38. > :07:40.country to keep its own plants open at any cost.
:07:41. > :07:43.It makes this a peculiarly difficult industry to manage.
:07:44. > :07:46.Sir Vince Cable is with us, Lib Dem and former Business Secretary
:07:47. > :08:02.If you were still in that job, what would you be doing tomorrow? I think
:08:03. > :08:05.that government intervention is involved whether we like it or not
:08:06. > :08:10.and were already intervening by providing compensation because of
:08:11. > :08:14.high energy costs and state aid clearance we have for that. The
:08:15. > :08:19.argument is we could be doing more of that. What we would have to do
:08:20. > :08:24.tomorrow is trying to bridge the very short-term objective which Tata
:08:25. > :08:28.Steel have said for getting out of the industry and the longer period
:08:29. > :08:32.which would be required to manage this sale in an orderly way without
:08:33. > :08:36.catastrophic consequences and the other area we have to look at
:08:37. > :08:41.closely is the issue of International Trade, I am not
:08:42. > :08:46.protectionist but under national -- International Trade la, if you get
:08:47. > :08:50.dumping in foreign markets at domestic prices, with the Chinese
:08:51. > :08:55.have allegedly been doing, then the EU is entitled are entitled to
:08:56. > :09:00.impose duties as it has done at relatively low levels. The British
:09:01. > :09:06.government voted against the higher tariff regime they could have gone
:09:07. > :09:11.for. Those are the issues. You use the word sale and were using the
:09:12. > :09:15.same word, up for sale, British Steel, but it is not up for sale,
:09:16. > :09:20.they would give it away. They would sell for ?1. They would pay someone
:09:21. > :09:24.to take it. There are not many buyers around on the issue of
:09:25. > :09:31.Scunthorpe came up, we had one man who is -- who expressed interest in
:09:32. > :09:36.asset stripping but there has been what seems to be a qualified seal to
:09:37. > :09:39.a buyer in Scotland, the Scottish government intervened and then
:09:40. > :09:46.nationalised this form a few seconds to allow that deal to take place so
:09:47. > :09:51.yes, it is a difficult environment. On nationalisation, would you
:09:52. > :09:54.support, you are not in favour of long-term nationalisation would you
:09:55. > :10:00.support short-term nationalisation if it meant the Exchequer would pay
:10:01. > :10:04.?1 million every week to keep this alive? I would approach this in a
:10:05. > :10:11.non-travelling, public ownership has a role in committed circumstances,
:10:12. > :10:17.but if it would help, I didn't think this is a question of throwing large
:10:18. > :10:21.amounts of taxpayer money at this, a rapid does orderly closure would
:10:22. > :10:28.impose large costs. Not just on the human cost, on the community, but a
:10:29. > :10:32.large fiscal cost as well. Clearly, the government must look at value
:10:33. > :10:35.for money, but as one of the requirements of the European Union
:10:36. > :10:42.rules. If there was value for money in a temporary period of public
:10:43. > :10:47.intervention, then we should do it. This does not get publicity in the
:10:48. > :10:51.coalition we had this problem at the last underground coal mines and
:10:52. > :10:56.there was a temporary finance provided. We will pick up on those
:10:57. > :10:57.strategic questions. Well, is there economic
:10:58. > :10:59.life after steel? In effect we find ourselves
:11:00. > :11:03.asking an old question - how as a country do we respond
:11:04. > :11:06.to the changing balance London is bursting with new jobs
:11:07. > :11:13.but doesn't have the housing to accommodate everyone,
:11:14. > :11:15.so it's no good expecting all of Britain to move
:11:16. > :11:18.there to find work. But can you move new
:11:19. > :11:20.jobs to South Wales? Do you pay jobs to go there,
:11:21. > :11:26.and if you do, is it better to simply pay an existing steel
:11:27. > :11:29.company to stay there? We sent Secunder Kermani not
:11:30. > :11:35.to Port Talbot today, but to Ebbw Vale, where the steel
:11:36. > :11:38.mill, once the largest in Europe, Ebbw Vale in south Wales
:11:39. > :11:48.was built on steel. At its peak, the works
:11:49. > :11:51.here provided around 15,000 But amidst many of the same market
:11:52. > :11:57.pressures still in place Like in Port Talbot,
:11:58. > :12:02.around an hour's drive away from here, steel
:12:03. > :12:04.was in the heart of the community But if you look at the site
:12:05. > :12:09.with the steelworks used to be, there is almost no sign
:12:10. > :12:11.of it left any more. If you want to know what happens
:12:12. > :12:14.when heavy industry leaves town, With the steelworks,
:12:15. > :12:20.I can go back a lot of years, and when you left school at 15,
:12:21. > :12:24.you got an apprenticeship, You could go from one job,
:12:25. > :12:30.you could leave a job on Friday and get a job on Monday,
:12:31. > :12:33.and ever since it's gone There is nothing to
:12:34. > :12:37.do in this valley at Both grandfathers were in the steel,
:12:38. > :12:42.in the mines, like. Yes, because there
:12:43. > :12:46.was a lot more jobs There was hundreds
:12:47. > :12:50.and hundreds of jobs. It was a lot easier in the '70s,
:12:51. > :12:53.'80s, '90s than what it is now. Many of those who lost
:12:54. > :12:55.their jobs either retired, became
:12:56. > :12:57.self-employed or left town. I moved to Swindon, been
:12:58. > :13:09.in Swindon for 14 years. Every family would have had someone
:13:10. > :13:16.that worked at the works, and if you look at the signage
:13:17. > :13:18.around, even today, The union rep at the time
:13:19. > :13:24.the steelworks closed is Dai Davies. He says workers were let down
:13:25. > :13:27.by government after government. They've all neglected
:13:28. > :13:31.the valley communities. I've said many times that the valley
:13:32. > :13:35.communities built the world, so iron, steel and coal production,
:13:36. > :13:39.we built the world, and yet we are now left with basically empty
:13:40. > :13:42.valleys, empty shells The local council bought
:13:43. > :13:47.the site of the steelworks. One of its rolling machines,
:13:48. > :13:49.too heavy to move, still They build a hospital,
:13:50. > :13:53.leisure centre in schools Part of a regeneration,
:13:54. > :14:01.an attempt to lead people Richard Crook has led
:14:02. > :14:05.the project, and sees better education as the best
:14:06. > :14:08.replacement for the lost jobs. We certainly took the opportunity
:14:09. > :14:10.that because the works were closing, Had the works not closed,
:14:11. > :14:14.then potentially we may have continued on in that same
:14:15. > :14:18.process, which at some point in the future would have led
:14:19. > :14:21.to us to have to make the same decision, so yes, it is easy
:14:22. > :14:24.to become wedded to what is there, and it is understandable,
:14:25. > :14:26.because it is providing good quality employment
:14:27. > :14:28.and spreading the growth into the supply chain,
:14:29. > :14:30.so why change? Sometimes you need that jolt
:14:31. > :14:33.to force the change, and to move on into a 21st-century
:14:34. > :14:35.economy, and that is No, but you have to take
:14:36. > :14:40.it as an opportunity, because if it has
:14:41. > :14:43.happened, what do you do? But many have greeted
:14:44. > :14:45.the new developments with cynicism. They say there is no
:14:46. > :14:47.compensation for the This is the archive section
:14:48. > :14:53.I set up on leaving He began documenting the changes
:14:54. > :15:02.to the town with a video camera, bought with
:15:03. > :15:05.his redundancy money. It is not bringing jobs
:15:06. > :15:08.to Ebbw Vale, and that is the one It is a nice town now,
:15:09. > :15:12.clean town, nice But as far as the people
:15:13. > :15:20.are concerned, it's not, because in the 60s and 70s,
:15:21. > :15:24.everybody had work, despite the fact that they were living
:15:25. > :15:27.in perhaps poor conditions, There are still factories here,
:15:28. > :15:39.and TVR is due to set But many lament the demise of steel,
:15:40. > :15:51.and warn Port Talbot will, too. Well, joining me now to discuss
:15:52. > :15:56.whether steel has a future and whether government should be
:15:57. > :15:58.intervening in markets like this at all are Professor
:15:59. > :16:00.Mariana Mazzucato, author of The Entrepreneurial State
:16:01. > :16:02.and Professor at Sussex University, Allister Heath, Deputy Editor
:16:03. > :16:04.of the Daily Telegraph, and Sir Vince Cable
:16:05. > :16:17.is still with us. Do you find this case, when you look
:16:18. > :16:19.at what happened in Ebbw Vale, it is a challenge to the view that the
:16:20. > :16:26.Government should let industry work itself out? I find all cases with
:16:27. > :16:30.big job losses and huge impact on community is very difficult, but
:16:31. > :16:35.nevertheless the future of this country is to embrace globalisation,
:16:36. > :16:38.free trade, new industries that are viable in the modern economy, and I
:16:39. > :16:43.think we have done really well overall as a country. There are
:16:44. > :16:46.problems in certain areas, old coal mining and steel mining areas, but
:16:47. > :16:50.overall as a country we have embraced these new service
:16:51. > :16:56.industries and high-tech manufacturing. No one is going to
:16:57. > :16:59.say Britain doesn't have jobs, not always the best paid, but we have
:17:00. > :17:05.jobs. But what you do with the valleys in your point of view? Due
:17:06. > :17:09.basically say to people, the jobs are not there, you have to move? Or
:17:10. > :17:14.do you bribe other companies to move jobs there? How do you connect the
:17:15. > :17:16.new economy, a lot of which is in hubs around London and the
:17:17. > :17:22.south-east, and the bits that haven't got these? That is the great
:17:23. > :17:28.challenge in how you in Jenny this great challenge. There is a set of
:17:29. > :17:33.answers, you need to create enterprise zones, give fiscal
:17:34. > :17:37.incentives, zero copies in tax, no national insurance in those areas,
:17:38. > :17:40.so a set of policies like that to try to change those areas, but I
:17:41. > :17:45.think resisting change, saying we are going to stick with 20th century
:17:46. > :17:50.industries, 19th century industries, that is not the solution. These
:17:51. > :17:53.industries have declined for 20 or 30 years, and this is just the
:17:54. > :17:57.acceleration of a long-running process. The other two of you I
:17:58. > :18:04.think are more interventionist, I think. You believe Government has a
:18:05. > :18:09.bigger role, what you say to him? There is a static dichotomy that has
:18:10. > :18:13.been depicted, either nationalisation or being laid-back,
:18:14. > :18:15.the term embracing industry. The term embracing industry comes from a
:18:16. > :18:21.co-investment between public and private sectors, and some of the
:18:22. > :18:23.great champions in this country, Rolls-Royce, jaguar, other sectors,
:18:24. > :18:27.have been fruits of those kind of public interventions which are not
:18:28. > :18:33.just about subsidies, incentives through different types of tax cuts,
:18:34. > :18:38.but again, investment. And so I really think that this is a
:18:39. > :18:41.question, and if you look at the US or Belgium, what they have actually
:18:42. > :18:48.done is to transform and modernise the steel industry, to recover, the
:18:49. > :18:53.purpose, reuse, suggested the US, that is worth $8 billion. One of
:18:54. > :18:57.your industrial policies, you have said on this programme many times
:18:58. > :19:01.that industry needs patient finance, financiers who are not here today,
:19:02. > :19:07.gone tomorrow. Steele has had patient finance, Tata is the epitome
:19:08. > :19:11.of a good, well-run company that gives its divisions time to sort
:19:12. > :19:15.themselves out, but it given up. But we shouldn't just be part of another
:19:16. > :19:20.country's industrial policy which isn't necessarily went to the UK
:19:21. > :19:24.steel industry, and as changes occur to commodity prices, we just go with
:19:25. > :19:28.the wind. One of the questions is, what kind of deals also can be
:19:29. > :19:34.struck with these foreign sources of patient finance, and you are right
:19:35. > :19:42.to look at them as a source of patient finance. When Fiat went to
:19:43. > :19:48.the US and joined with Chrysler, Obama insisted that they look at
:19:49. > :19:51.hybrid engines. In the same in Italy, you don't strike if you want
:19:52. > :19:55.to biotic deals with the private sector, because if you want
:19:56. > :19:57.incentive to be business friendly, this terrible word that we keep
:19:58. > :20:01.repeating, because business itself doesn't then effect from
:20:02. > :20:06.friendliness, it benefits from having a strategic innovation
:20:07. > :20:09.policy, and we need better deals. A lot of the stuff that Alastair was
:20:10. > :20:12.talking about is going to have to happen anyway, because even in the
:20:13. > :20:20.best case scenario, there will be a lot of redundancies, so that kind of
:20:21. > :20:25.sport -- support is whether some intervention is required to hold it
:20:26. > :20:29.from complete collapse. This isn't just standardised products, we
:20:30. > :20:35.talking high-value products, high-value technology, and Tata
:20:36. > :20:40.believed passionately until recently in Port Tolbert, they invested in a
:20:41. > :20:43.new blast furnace, so I think what we have to distinguish is the
:20:44. > :20:46.long-term competitiveness issues which are tricky but can be
:20:47. > :20:52.overcome, and this global glut problem. And the question to ask, is
:20:53. > :20:56.the global glut problem temporary, as we deal with the Chinese import
:20:57. > :20:59.issue, or is it a permanent or semipermanent problem, in which case
:21:00. > :21:04.there isn't a great deal we can do except of vast cost.
:21:05. > :21:06.But your view is the global glut is temporary? It to do with the Chinese
:21:07. > :21:12.adjustment to a more balanced economy. They are producing 800
:21:13. > :21:16.million tonnes, we are producing 12 million tonnes, we are barely a
:21:17. > :21:20.decimal point on the production, they only have to move a little bit
:21:21. > :21:24.and we are blown over. You think there is a viable portion? I can't
:21:25. > :21:28.predict the future, none of us can. But there is also the question of
:21:29. > :21:31.the unstable policies that both the last government and this government
:21:32. > :21:38.having committed around energy, this stop and start, so given that energy
:21:39. > :21:44.costs are a big fact for steel, they need certainty, not just the
:21:45. > :21:48.investors... If we had a fair energy price and a level playing field, do
:21:49. > :21:51.you think there would still be overcapacity in the world steel
:21:52. > :21:57.market, and should Britain be trying to keep it a bit in the market? When
:21:58. > :22:02.you are using the word steel, you're taking a snapshot, this static thing
:22:03. > :22:09.called steel. In any sector, we can modernise, we can have innovation
:22:10. > :22:12.policy which transforms the steel industry, and instead, ironically,
:22:13. > :22:19.it is precisely because we have had these laissez faire policies that we
:22:20. > :22:23.have a decaying sector. There is massive overcapacity in the global
:22:24. > :22:30.steel industry, but these are long-term problems. 320,000 people
:22:31. > :22:34.were avoiding the steel in 1970, now there are 30,000, so a 90%
:22:35. > :22:48.reduction. The answer is not to hark back to those days. You are agreeing
:22:49. > :22:52.with Marianna there. And looking at Jaguar Land Rover, they depend on
:22:53. > :22:56.buying cheaper steel, so we need to make the overall economy as
:22:57. > :22:59.competitive as possible in the global market, not saddling
:23:00. > :23:04.ourselves with overpriced steel and expensive energy. Other industries
:23:05. > :23:09.benefit from dumped Chinese steel. Yes, they have bought in in these
:23:10. > :23:13.companies. So more than half of the market is imported. Would you
:23:14. > :23:20.happily see those companies lose jobs or pay more for their steel?
:23:21. > :23:24.There is always creative destruction, so would we have
:23:25. > :23:32.tariffs? Would you have tariffs? It is not about do you want them or
:23:33. > :23:35.not. I think we should have free trade, that should be the solution.
:23:36. > :23:38.Which try to police trade and make sure that people don't abuse the
:23:39. > :23:42.system, but by and large we should enter free trade. I actually don't
:23:43. > :23:48.think we're getting to the core of the problem. I would like to hear
:23:49. > :23:51.Tata talk about this, when they close down some recent project in
:23:52. > :23:55.the UK, what they said was there was no vision in this country, in that
:23:56. > :24:02.particular case were green. I would bet that Mr Tata would not be
:24:03. > :24:06.closing down the plant here if he thought it was a hub of new thinking
:24:07. > :24:10.around steel, exactly in how you are talking about it, which is not just
:24:11. > :24:15.steel as a static sector but transformative and affecting the way
:24:16. > :24:20.other sectors operate. We don't have any industrial innovation. I want to
:24:21. > :24:26.ask you one more question, Vince. Do you recognise a case for keeping
:24:27. > :24:29.steel as a strategic industry in the case that a country the size of ours
:24:30. > :24:35.needs steel to build the defence and other purposes? The key strategic
:24:36. > :24:45.industries these days are electronic scum IT and so on, steel because we
:24:46. > :24:49.need dreadnoughts and so on, but I don't think we should be cavalier
:24:50. > :24:51.about accepting that we are the first major country not to make
:24:52. > :24:56.basic steel, I would worry about that. Thank you all very much, and
:24:57. > :25:00.I'm sorry we didn't have a member of the government here to make their
:25:01. > :25:02.point, they didn't offer anybody to us this evening. Let's move onto
:25:03. > :25:06.Donald Trump. He may describe himself as winning,
:25:07. > :25:09.but he's not a winner Almost half of Republican women say
:25:10. > :25:13.they could not imagine themselves supporting Mr Trump
:25:14. > :25:15.in a presidential election. Last week, or was it the week
:25:16. > :25:17.before, he was abusing His campaign manager has been
:25:18. > :25:22.charged with battery for grabbing And today he made some comments
:25:23. > :25:26.about abortion that have been Do you believe in
:25:27. > :25:30.punishment for abortion? The answer is that there has to be
:25:31. > :25:35.some form of punishment. As it happens, that line was dragged
:25:36. > :25:46.out of him by the interviewer - he had seemed reluctant to go
:25:47. > :25:49.that far, and he has Let's take stock of his appeal -
:25:50. > :25:54.or lack thereof - to women voters. I'm joined by Molly Ball,
:25:55. > :26:09.who is covering the US Presidential Something of a muddle in his line on
:26:10. > :26:14.abortion tonight. How do you think he will play it? Donald Trump has
:26:15. > :26:19.been all over the map on abortion and a lot of different issues, he
:26:20. > :26:22.tends to do this, taking contradictory stands, sometimes even
:26:23. > :26:27.in the same breath, and I think this allows people who like in to see
:26:28. > :26:29.whatever they want to see in him. In this case, after making the
:26:30. > :26:34.statement you just played on the tape, he then issued a statement
:26:35. > :26:38.later saying the exact opposite, that in the case, the hypothetical
:26:39. > :26:41.case that abortion were to be Bandini knighted States, it ought to
:26:42. > :26:45.be the people performing the abortions who would be prosecuted
:26:46. > :26:48.for that illegal act, not the women, who he described as the victims in
:26:49. > :26:54.this scenario along with the life in the womb. Donald Trump has a history
:26:55. > :26:59.of being pro-choice, meaning in favour of abortion rights, and he
:27:00. > :27:03.has claimed that he had an epiphany sometime between then and when he
:27:04. > :27:06.decided to run as Republican candidate for president, you really
:27:07. > :27:11.can't be a Republican candidate and be in favour of abortion rights, but
:27:12. > :27:14.he says he has the same position as Ronald Reagan, which is pro-life
:27:15. > :27:17.with exceptions, he would make exceptions to allow abortions in
:27:18. > :27:22.cases of rape and incest and when the life of the mother is in danger.
:27:23. > :27:26.I'm assuming his views on abortion are not really what is driving these
:27:27. > :27:37.rather poor polling ratings for him, because Republican women are keener
:27:38. > :27:43.on Cruz that they are on Trump. What are women not liking? You mention
:27:44. > :27:47.some of his greatest hits in terms of insulting women, but there is a
:27:48. > :27:50.litany of statements. He has been feuding with the Fox News anchor
:27:51. > :27:55.Megan Kelly, one of the stars of Conservative media, since the very
:27:56. > :28:02.first debate back in August, when she asked him about his offensive
:28:03. > :28:06.remarks about women. -- Megyn Kelly. He then went on television after
:28:07. > :28:10.that debate and insulted her, and they have continued to feud in the
:28:11. > :28:13.ensuing months. He frequently describes women in terms of their
:28:14. > :28:18.appearance and derides the based on their appearance. I think a lot of
:28:19. > :28:21.women feel that that is not just insulting to those individual women,
:28:22. > :28:27.but to women as a whole, that he sees them as objects, and he doesn't
:28:28. > :28:31.take them seriously as people. So you mentioned that half of
:28:32. > :28:36.Republican women don't like him, but it is about three quarters of women
:28:37. > :28:39.in the general electorate, and in presidential elections, women vote
:28:40. > :28:42.at higher rates than men do, they are the majority of the electorate.
:28:43. > :28:48.But he really doesn't seem to try, that is amazing. He carries on, he
:28:49. > :28:50.has this form, this history, you think you might have looked at the
:28:51. > :28:55.ratings and come up with something nice to say to women, but he doesn't
:28:56. > :29:01.try. What is going on in his head? Is he just too sure of himself? Or
:29:02. > :29:04.does he think, I keep winning by breaking rules, so I will keep
:29:05. > :29:08.breaking the rules in the hope that this will pay dividends later. Fabio
:29:09. > :29:12.Petroni to try to psychoanalyse Donald Trump, I do think anyone
:29:13. > :29:20.knows what is going on inside his brain. -- far be it from me. But he
:29:21. > :29:24.has this willingness to say what other people won't say, he is not
:29:25. > :29:28.bound by political correctness, and a lot of people, particularly men,
:29:29. > :29:34.feel emasculated by feminism and by the increasing equality of women,
:29:35. > :29:37.and feel that in this day and age, you can't even tell a woman that she
:29:38. > :29:42.looks pretty without having people all over you, so it is a sort of
:29:43. > :29:46.white male identity politics that Donald Trump is speaking to, but as
:29:47. > :29:50.you mention, he hasn't made any effort to broaden his appeal or
:29:51. > :29:55.build bridges to people who are not in that segment. You have 12 seconds
:29:56. > :29:59.to answer the question, will women vote Hillary Clinton? Does she grab
:30:00. > :30:07.women? Are they all right laying around behind her? That is a big
:30:08. > :30:13.question, but she has not managed to rally women to herself in the
:30:14. > :30:17.Democratic primary. In 2008, she ran as a sexless candidate, but she has
:30:18. > :30:21.run more aggressively this time, wanting to be the first woman
:30:22. > :30:24.president, and in her primary against Bernie Sanders, young women
:30:25. > :30:26.have not flocked to have as a result. Molly, thank you very much
:30:27. > :30:52.indeed. The President of Afghanistan,
:30:53. > :30:55.Ahshraf Ghani, has been in office for 18 months now, never attracting
:30:56. > :30:58.quite as much attention in the West It may be good news that the world
:30:59. > :31:02.is paying less attention to Afghanistan, but there
:31:03. > :31:04.is a continued outflow of the country's citizens keen
:31:05. > :31:06.to escape to richer nations. A quarter of the Mediterranean Sea
:31:07. > :31:09.arrivals so far this year have been The BBC's Yalda Hakim managed to get
:31:10. > :31:13.an interview with Ashraf Ghani about the migrant problem,
:31:14. > :31:16.and began by asking him why there has been an exodus
:31:17. > :31:18.of people from his country. This is one of the most
:31:19. > :31:20.connected societies on earth. Because it became
:31:21. > :31:22.a country of refugees. In Europe, in the United States,
:31:23. > :31:25.in North America, Australia. We have at least a million
:31:26. > :31:27.people who have settled. They have a million ties that bind
:31:28. > :31:30.them with others so they pull. We're very proud of our Afghans,
:31:31. > :31:34.they are now hyphenated Afghans. Particularly the social model
:31:35. > :31:39.in Europe, the social welfare model, the welfare state, has
:31:40. > :31:43.done well by Afghans. In Germany, for instance,
:31:44. > :31:49.they have done extraordinary things. The push factors are,
:31:50. > :31:53.a war has been imposed upon us. The departure of not just
:31:54. > :31:58.international troops but the contractors took away
:31:59. > :32:01.a million upper middle-class people This is a country where,
:32:02. > :32:10.for 15 years, a lot of blood and treasure has gone in to create
:32:11. > :32:13.a stable society. Sure, but it has also created one
:32:14. > :32:17.of the most corrupt sets The inheritance of that is 41%
:32:18. > :32:26.of people living below poverty. Yes, it is a country that has become
:32:27. > :32:31.the platform for a regional We are at war but we're
:32:32. > :32:40.not at civil war. The war between Afghans is a very
:32:41. > :32:43.small component of a regional Al-Qaeda, unfortunately,
:32:44. > :32:53.has gone deep and dark, Daesh is active here,
:32:54. > :33:01.as it has done atrocious things. When I warned about the fear
:33:02. > :33:04.of Daesh, it was not heeded, They said that this country
:33:05. > :33:11.would become a graveyard for Daesh. But we also have the greatest
:33:12. > :33:19.medium-term threat. Massive numbers of Pakistani Taliban
:33:20. > :33:22.are being transposed Why, then, are Europeans
:33:23. > :33:27.sending Afghans back, saying that they are economic
:33:28. > :33:29.migrants, that they only come to Europe because of
:33:30. > :33:33.poverty and not war? The social contract in Europe
:33:34. > :33:44.vis-a-vis refugees was articulated In a period of liberalism's heyday
:33:45. > :33:51.and welfare strength. That model, unfortunately,
:33:52. > :33:55.is being re-negotiated. But there are also people
:33:56. > :33:57.fleeing persecution. 11,000 people were
:33:58. > :34:00.killed in this country. Did you ask the people of the UK
:34:01. > :34:09.when Hitler was in the ascent Please understand, we have
:34:10. > :34:18.to make a commitment. 549 young men and women graduated
:34:19. > :34:24.from the military academy. They are making a commitment
:34:25. > :34:37.to defend this country. Others on whom we have spent
:34:38. > :34:39.hundreds of millions of dollars who want to leave under
:34:40. > :34:41.the slightest pressure. If you want to have a country,
:34:42. > :34:47.you need to have the will. It is not the slightest
:34:48. > :34:49.pressure, though. In the last year we have
:34:50. > :34:51.seen the worst violence. They are making that
:34:52. > :35:00.dangerous journey. They are impoverishing
:35:01. > :35:10.their families in order Because that journey was based
:35:11. > :35:14.on false assumptions. Do we stand up for our right
:35:15. > :35:23.to breathe and our right to live Countries do not survive
:35:24. > :35:36.by their best attempting to flee. My goal is to make sure
:35:37. > :35:42.that my people live If we don't stand up in the face
:35:43. > :35:52.of the threat, and the threats are very real, my life
:35:53. > :35:56.is threatened everyday. I go to different
:35:57. > :36:00.parts of Afghanistan. But you have the protection that
:36:01. > :36:02.other Afghans don't. You think when rockets
:36:03. > :36:04.are fired at you, you have When bombs are thrown at you,
:36:05. > :36:08.you have protection against it? If I had that sense,
:36:09. > :36:10.I would surround myself Genuine is always better
:36:11. > :36:30.than fake, but is fake better A topic discussed in many
:36:31. > :36:34.different areas of life, The technology of 3D printing drawn
:36:35. > :36:40.from multiple photographs means we have the power to create detailed
:36:41. > :36:43.replicas more easily This, in fact, is a replica
:36:44. > :36:47.in the making - a monumental scale reconstruction of the Triumphal Arch
:36:48. > :36:49.from Palmyra's Temple of Bel. The real arch was destroyed by Isis
:36:50. > :36:52.when they occupied the ancient city. This one, built in blocks, will be
:36:53. > :36:55.installed on Trafalgar Square, then it goes to New York
:36:56. > :37:02.and then Palmyra itself. So how far can replica substitute
:37:03. > :37:05.for a destroyed past? Should you even contemplate putting
:37:06. > :37:07.replicas on the sites Joining me now in the studio
:37:08. > :37:12.is Dr Alexy Karenowska, the director of technology
:37:13. > :37:14.at the Institute of And from Edinburgh is author
:37:15. > :37:19.James Crawford, whose book Fallen Glory tells the story of some
:37:20. > :37:29.of the world's greatest Tell us about your group. How well
:37:30. > :37:36.can you make a replica? How realistic? Very realistic indeed,
:37:37. > :37:41.our processes or a combination of architectural 3D printing and 3D
:37:42. > :37:47.machine work can reproduce objects to the level of sub millimetre
:37:48. > :37:51.precision. There are a series of surface techniques we can use to
:37:52. > :37:56.reproduce the effects of weathering and ageing and the general
:37:57. > :38:04.appearance. And the material, not plastic, what is it? We are working
:38:05. > :38:09.on technology which combines real stone, the arch in Trafalgar Square
:38:10. > :38:19.will be marble and Geo composite materials, artificial stones from 3D
:38:20. > :38:23.printing. What is the purpose? There are many, in the context of
:38:24. > :38:26.large-scale reconstruction, what we're doing is exploring
:38:27. > :38:29.technologies that we believe can make a real difference
:38:30. > :38:35.reconstructing regions like Syria which have been badly damaged and
:38:36. > :38:43.these technologies open the door for producing a way of producing and
:38:44. > :38:47.preserving the cultural heritage, the tangible and intangible aspects
:38:48. > :38:52.of that. And really keeping the living history of these areas alive.
:38:53. > :39:00.James, does this excite you? It does. The technology is fantastic,
:39:01. > :39:06.it is or inspiring in the true sense of that phrase and my concern is not
:39:07. > :39:11.what shall happen in Trafalgar Square and Times Square, and they
:39:12. > :39:15.will be visiting, it is the idea of reconstructing on the actual site of
:39:16. > :39:20.Palymyra itself. Tell me why you would not want this archway to go
:39:21. > :39:26.back to where it was before Isis destroyed it? One of the things that
:39:27. > :39:32.it brings to mind is the theory that comes from robotics and in the
:39:33. > :39:37.1970s, the uncanny Valley, that machines will get to the point where
:39:38. > :39:42.they were so close to humans, instead of us empathising, we
:39:43. > :39:44.respond to them with revulsion and there is a danger with this
:39:45. > :39:52.reconstruction of archaeology that we might respond to Palmyra in the
:39:53. > :39:57.same way, but it becomes uncanny and what a tragic end for this city, but
:39:58. > :40:04.when we visit it, we feel this sense of unease. Why would we feel that?
:40:05. > :40:08.You will see the arch in Palymyra, you will barely be able to tell that
:40:09. > :40:14.it was not the original, that has some subtle effect? Very much so,
:40:15. > :40:20.you will barely be able to tell and you might not realise it but as time
:40:21. > :40:25.goes by, that response, this concept of revulsion and that has happened
:40:26. > :40:33.before, in 1900, an English antiquarian bought up the site at
:40:34. > :40:36.Crete and brought this with -- rebuilt it with reinforced concrete
:40:37. > :40:39.and some people thought this was fantastic but even while, when he
:40:40. > :40:44.went on a Mediterranean cruise, and visited the site, he thought this
:40:45. > :40:50.was a place of oppressive wickedness so there is a danger when you engage
:40:51. > :40:56.in this process of reconstruction, it can have a negative impact. Is
:40:57. > :41:00.the plan to put the reconstructed arch back with the original was or
:41:01. > :41:07.to put it in a museum 500 metres away? Several things are important,
:41:08. > :41:09.the overall aim of this project is to move towards on-site
:41:10. > :41:15.reconstruction of the installation in Trafalgar Square and India work
:41:16. > :41:18.or a demonstration of this technology and in response to the
:41:19. > :41:21.point that were made, I would agree that it is extremely important that
:41:22. > :41:25.we understand that the reconstruction is not the original
:41:26. > :41:29.and it would be wrong to put objects on the site and claim that they are
:41:30. > :41:34.something they are not. But I think it is also important to realise that
:41:35. > :41:38.there is a huge tragedy in the complete loss of these physical
:41:39. > :41:42.objects and yet the physical objects themselves are not the only element
:41:43. > :41:49.of the cultural heritage they represent. I think that we have to
:41:50. > :41:54.balance here respect for the site but also making sure we do not get
:41:55. > :42:00.caught up too much in what we might describe as the romance of the
:42:01. > :42:07.Roman, it is important that we are not too attached to the physical
:42:08. > :42:12.objects. We can talk about this longer but we don't have the time.
:42:13. > :42:20.Thank you both very much. That is all we have time for, Kirsty will be
:42:21. > :42:30.here tomorrow. Good night. Temperatures falling out there under
:42:31. > :42:34.largely clear skies and a touch of frost first thing tomorrow, showers
:42:35. > :42:37.over south-east of Scotland and North East England and they could be
:42:38. > :42:42.heavy through the day with the few showers developing elsewhere. Some
:42:43. > :42:46.lively ones are parts of Northern Ireland staying dry with sunshine
:42:47. > :42:48.and reaching double figures, largely dry in northern Scotland and we will
:42:49. > :42:49.start the day before freezing