:00:07. > :00:10.Tonight, Europe prepares to send hundreds of migrants back to Turkey
:00:11. > :00:13.as Turkey is accused of sending migrants back to Syria.
:00:14. > :00:15.Does this plan stand any chance of working?
:00:16. > :00:26."A move that will lead to job losses and cost businesses their chance
:00:27. > :00:28.of survival," - they said it about the introduction
:00:29. > :00:33.of the minimum wage in the late '90s.
:00:34. > :00:35.Has history taught us not to fear the new living wage?
:00:36. > :00:38.And will you stay with us long enough to hear you're not
:00:39. > :00:42.Steve Smith clambers into his sleep pod and throws the whole idea
:00:43. > :00:44.of what constitutes "a good night" out the window.
:00:45. > :00:46.Shall we have a moment of privacy again?
:00:47. > :00:49.The world doesn't need to know everything, do they?
:00:50. > :01:06.Europe is preparing to return hundreds of people
:01:07. > :01:19.Save the Children are preparing a legal challenge. They believe the
:01:20. > :01:21.government is acting against EU law in deporting refugees.
:01:22. > :01:25.aimed at ending uncontrolled migration into the continent.
:01:26. > :01:30.The drive - which will be put into action on Monday -
:01:31. > :01:32.will see Syrian and other migrants sent back to Turkey as part
:01:33. > :01:35.of a controversial repatriation deal signed between the EU
:01:36. > :01:38.Today however Amnesty International accused Turkey of sending thousands
:01:39. > :01:40.of people trying to flee Syria back into the war-racked country
:01:41. > :01:44.So does the plan stand any chance of working in a way
:01:45. > :01:50.As the first deportations loom, tensions are rising in the Greek
:01:51. > :02:01.Today on the island of Chios those awaiting their fate
:02:02. > :02:06.broke out of their centre to mount a protest at the port.
:02:07. > :02:14.Aid organisations are sounding the alarm, and trying to frustrate the
:02:15. > :02:20.deportations. We will be setting out our legal considerations paper which
:02:21. > :02:26.is about nine pages long, which explains very clearly our position
:02:27. > :02:31.about which safeguards, guarantees need to be put in place both in
:02:32. > :02:37.Greece and in Turkey, in order for the deal to be acceptable. Tonight
:02:38. > :02:43.Save the Children Todd us they were preparing a legal challenge. -- told
:02:44. > :02:54.us. We consider the application of this new deal as to be unlawful and
:02:55. > :03:00.unjustified and we will explore all options to safeguard the rights of
:03:01. > :03:05.these children. In a political way, in a legal way, in everywhere they
:03:06. > :03:11.which we consider appropriate. But always in the best interests of the
:03:12. > :03:17.children. On the Macedonian border, at Idomeni, meanwhile, some of the
:03:18. > :03:20.50,000 now stuck in Greece while away their days, forlornly hoping
:03:21. > :03:29.that the frontier ahead of them might be reopened. This is no way to
:03:30. > :03:32.live, this is no way. Is this how we will end up? It's getting hotter,
:03:33. > :03:38.there is more disease and lights, God help us. Greek nationalists have
:03:39. > :03:43.been urging the government to clear the camp too. The Immigration
:03:44. > :03:50.Minister gave this impassioned response in Parliament today.
:03:51. > :03:53.TRANSLATION: We signed the best deal under these specific circumstances,
:03:54. > :03:58.it is a good deal because for the first time, for the first time after
:03:59. > :04:04.the European Commission failed, a legal path has been created for
:04:05. > :04:10.refugees to come into Europe. It's getting tougher for migrants. Nato
:04:11. > :04:14.has been operating since the 25th of February. Passing through Greece got
:04:15. > :04:18.markedly harder on the 5th of March when Macedonia closed its border to
:04:19. > :04:23.migrants. Since the 20th of March when the EU deal with Turkey went
:04:24. > :04:27.into effect, those arriving in Greece are liable to be sent back.
:04:28. > :04:32.Turkey has also been forcing some Syrians back across their common
:04:33. > :04:35.frontier. Yet people are still going to Greece, despite the fact that
:04:36. > :04:41.getting through to northern Europe would now appear to be much harder.
:04:42. > :04:49.Some of these people have already begun their trip. Months ago. We
:04:50. > :04:51.talked to them and they started out from Syria, Afghanistan, Somalia,
:04:52. > :04:58.Bangladesh, three or four months ago. Also they have been exploited,
:04:59. > :05:02.they have given all of the money they have, and they think that if we
:05:03. > :05:08.come to Greece we will find a solution. Is the EU - Turkey
:05:09. > :05:14.agreement working? The picture is mixed. On Greek islands like these,
:05:15. > :05:21.there has been a big drop in migrant arrivals during the past two weeks.
:05:22. > :05:25.But on Lesbos a smaller fall, with hundreds still landing. Overall the
:05:26. > :05:33.number arriving in Greece is down significantly, but there have been
:05:34. > :05:35.ebbs before due to bad weather. That said, European governments can be
:05:36. > :05:40.expected to defend the deal with Turkey as their best hope yet in the
:05:41. > :05:45.crisis. The European Union will invest heavily to make sure there is
:05:46. > :05:49.a fair legal process, it may be expedited and we may not recognise
:05:50. > :05:53.it as being fair, but they will stand behind that quite firmly
:05:54. > :05:57.because at the end of the day, this unregulated migration flow has
:05:58. > :06:04.rocked the continent to its foundations. Next week will be a
:06:05. > :06:09.real test of will, not just for the Greek government, and the EU
:06:10. > :06:15.agencies assisting with deportation, but also a test for those trapped in
:06:16. > :06:22.limbo, and a wider world watching, whether Europe can finally regain
:06:23. > :06:24.control over its external borders. We were hoping to speak to the Greek
:06:25. > :06:27.government as well. We can speak to Medecins Sans
:06:28. > :06:30.Frontieres' Michele Telaro live from the Greek island of
:06:31. > :06:31.Lesbos, where he is the project
:06:32. > :06:36.coordinator. It's nice of you to join us. Do you
:06:37. > :06:39.agree with Save the Children that there may be a legal case against
:06:40. > :06:46.what the Greek government is doing there? Yes, definitely. As you said,
:06:47. > :06:52.the aim of the agreement is clear, to stop illegal immigration. And as
:06:53. > :06:56.a humanitarian organisation we have nothing to say about that, what we
:06:57. > :07:02.see here is that conditions are getting worse and worse. At the end
:07:03. > :07:06.of the day disagreement is just creating suffering for these people.
:07:07. > :07:12.Am I right in thinking you are now not cooperating with the Greek
:07:13. > :07:19.authorities? We are still cooperating with the Greek
:07:20. > :07:28.authorities but we have been giving assistance to people in need here.
:07:29. > :07:38.Offering assistance when they arrive other such activities. From your
:07:39. > :07:41.position on the ground, is it possible to implement this EU plan
:07:42. > :07:47.successfully? It depends what you mean by implement and successful. Of
:07:48. > :07:53.course we speak about 500 people who could be deported from Monday. I
:07:54. > :07:59.really can't see how it would be possible. If we want to... If the
:08:00. > :08:02.European Union wants to do it in a decent and legal way it would be
:08:03. > :08:06.really difficult to send back everyone to Turkey as they say,
:08:07. > :08:11.because people still have the right to apply for asylum here. Each
:08:12. > :08:21.application should be considered individually according to... Each
:08:22. > :08:22.individual should have their rights granted. A lot of people want your
:08:23. > :08:25.attention. Thank you for your time. John Dalhuisen from Amnesty
:08:26. > :08:32.International joins me. That is the crux of it, doing it in
:08:33. > :08:37.a decent and legal way is where it gets difficult. Do you think there
:08:38. > :08:41.is a chance that it can work when it starts on Monday? Pragmatically and
:08:42. > :08:45.practically it is very difficult to see on the Greek side how they could
:08:46. > :08:48.have the infrastructure and procedures in place to allow people
:08:49. > :08:52.to go through individual assessments. On the Greek side it
:08:53. > :08:56.would be incredibly difficult and that's not even factoring in four
:08:57. > :09:00.now what's happening on the Turkish side. Even if you went to a perfect
:09:01. > :09:04.process rather than the sham one we are likely to see you could come to
:09:05. > :09:09.the conclusion that Turkey is not in fact a safe country to which to send
:09:10. > :09:14.asylum seekers, it is not safe for Iraqis and Afghans who have no
:09:15. > :09:18.access to asylum procedures in Turkey in practice. And increasingly
:09:19. > :09:22.it is not safe for Syrians either, as we documented today they are
:09:23. > :09:26.being returned in ever growing numbers to Syria from provinces in
:09:27. > :09:31.the east of the country. Turkey has consistently denied claims that it
:09:32. > :09:36.is returning people. Do you have evidence of numbers of Syrians being
:09:37. > :09:38.returned? I can say with the utmost confidence we have documented
:09:39. > :09:45.several cases in the past few weeks alone. How many are we talking?
:09:46. > :09:48.Three or four groups of individuals and family members we have spoken to
:09:49. > :09:52.on the Turkish side and those who have returned to Syria that we spoke
:09:53. > :10:00.to in Syria who have been torn asunder having been picked up in
:10:01. > :10:04.Turkey. I can think of three small children with their brother in a
:10:05. > :10:11.park who were picked up and taken on a bus back in groups of between 100
:10:12. > :10:13.and 200. It is an open secret. OK, we have got this, as I say, the
:10:14. > :10:17.government has refuted this in we have got this, as I say, the
:10:18. > :10:24.Turkey. If you are saying that this is happening then presumably you
:10:25. > :10:28.don't believe that Turkey can be a viable partner in resolving this
:10:29. > :10:33.crisis? Certainly not right now. That's not to say it isn't possible
:10:34. > :10:37.to engage with Turkey to construct a common asylum space that effectively
:10:38. > :10:42.integrates Turkey into a common European asylum space. What do you
:10:43. > :10:47.mean by a common asylum space? Not right now, but the EU is not trying
:10:48. > :10:52.to incentivise Turkey to improve its asylum system and improve the
:10:53. > :10:56.protection it is offering so that it could lawfully send people back.
:10:57. > :11:01.It's incentivising the opposite, because it does not want to take
:11:02. > :11:04.people in, Turkey can be increasingly restrictive itself.
:11:05. > :11:07.When you hear about the drop of numbers that Mark
:11:08. > :11:10.When you hear about the drop of real diminishing in the number of
:11:11. > :11:13.people trying to cross, does that say that whatever is happening on
:11:14. > :11:18.this side the message is getting through that it's not the right way
:11:19. > :11:20.to come? As was reported it is difficult to judge over a short span
:11:21. > :11:29.because the weather hasn't been particularly good. It has been the
:11:30. > :11:33.case that there has been a drum -- a demonstrable drop. We are seeing a
:11:34. > :11:36.rise in numbers coming through the central Mediterranean route. At the
:11:37. > :11:41.moment it's a little the fickle to see how it will pan out. The
:11:42. > :11:45.likelihood is if the EU proceeds as it intends to win a deal that is
:11:46. > :11:50.almost certainly illegal we will see a drop in numbers. -- it is
:11:51. > :11:55.difficult to see how it will pan out. The cost will be for the
:11:56. > :11:59.integrity of Europe and the refugees who suffer, however, that will be
:12:00. > :12:00.high indeed. Thank you very much indeed.
:12:01. > :12:02.It was considered dangerous - virtually seditious -
:12:03. > :12:09.Tony Blair's ?3.60 minimum wage was introduced in 1999
:12:10. > :12:12.to cries from business leaders it would ramp costs and deter anyone
:12:13. > :12:17.But the world, it seems, didn't end when he did.
:12:18. > :12:21.perhaps by coinicidence, perhaps by curious design -
:12:22. > :12:25.George Osborne has just signed off the new living wage
:12:26. > :12:29.Critics this time are making the same argument -
:12:30. > :12:32.that it will squeeze small business, lead to job losses or even that it
:12:33. > :12:34.will encourage more foreign workers into the country.
:12:35. > :12:38.Or should we heed warnings of what may be a step too far
:12:39. > :12:45.The idea of a minimum wage, let alone a national living wage,
:12:46. > :12:47.wasn't always so wasn't always so uncontroversial.
:12:48. > :12:53.You know perfectly well that what you're talking about is
:12:54. > :13:00.Is ?2 an hour acceptable to you as a very wealthy man?
:13:01. > :13:02.It is nothing to do with me being a wealthy man.
:13:03. > :13:07.It is entirely a matter of what people are prepared
:13:08. > :13:09.to accept in the circumstances of getting a job.
:13:10. > :13:12.Yet it was a Conservative Chancellor who last year announced this.
:13:13. > :13:18.Britain deserves a pay rise and Britain is getting a pay rise.
:13:19. > :13:20.I am today introducing a new national living wage.
:13:21. > :13:27.The national living wage increased by 50p from ?6.70 to ?7.20
:13:28. > :13:35.It's pledged to rise to ?9 per hour by 2020.
:13:36. > :13:38.That's less than that which the Living Wage Foundation says
:13:39. > :13:40.is needed, currently ?8.25 an hour outside of London
:13:41. > :13:52.is this a price Britain can afford to pay?
:13:53. > :13:56.Joining me now, Dia Chakravarty, from TaxPayers' Alliance,
:13:57. > :13:58.Faiza Shaheen, director of Class - a think tank,
:13:59. > :14:02.and Torsten Bell, Director of the Resolution Foundation.
:14:03. > :14:11.It is nice of you all to come in. Do you think you can get behind this?
:14:12. > :14:18.It is very risky, as is any policy which tries to intervene with the
:14:19. > :14:23.market. There is a cost of living crisis in this country and their to
:14:24. > :14:28.help those in the lower income brackets, and the government knows
:14:29. > :14:31.exactly what to do. One thing it has consistently failed to do, something
:14:32. > :14:36.we have been campaigning for for a long time, is to raise national
:14:37. > :14:43.insurance in line with income tax, which would immediately take a lot
:14:44. > :14:47.of people completely out of taxes on income. That is the policy the
:14:48. > :14:53.government needs to focus on. Progressive taxes, like fuel duty
:14:54. > :14:58.and so on. So it is the wrong lever? I think this wage increase is
:14:59. > :15:01.well-deserved, if you think about the context of public spending cuts
:15:02. > :15:05.and low wages for a long time for this group of people. If you think
:15:06. > :15:10.about the way in which this group will see some increase in incomes,
:15:11. > :15:14.this is definitely a positive move in a first step to a progressive
:15:15. > :15:20.economy, the type of economy which delivers for all. But this idea of a
:15:21. > :15:23.national living wage, we know there are different costs in the north and
:15:24. > :15:30.south. How can there be a national some? There are calculations that
:15:31. > :15:36.count across the country. We have to remember that average housing costs
:15:37. > :15:42.have increased by 7%, energy price bills are going up, food prices, and
:15:43. > :15:49.this has been severely affected by these, this group. To put it into
:15:50. > :15:55.context, can we afford this as an economy? It is only 0.6% of the wage
:15:56. > :15:59.bill by 2020, so of course we can afford it for the economy. We are
:16:00. > :16:04.one of the lower paid leading economies in the world. Is that the
:16:05. > :16:08.kind of economy we want to be? No. But for some sectors and employers,
:16:09. > :16:13.this will be hard to deal with. If you are in the hospitality sector,
:16:14. > :16:17.this is a 3.4% increase, and that is a lot. But are we happy with
:16:18. > :16:24.carrying on with one in five workers being low paid? The answer should be
:16:25. > :16:27.no. We have to decide if it is worth the pain. France has 11%
:16:28. > :16:33.unemployment and a higher minimum wage. Let's be careful about certain
:16:34. > :16:37.assumptions that a certain minimum wage rate means a certain
:16:38. > :16:41.unemployment rate. New Zealand and Australia have similar rates to
:16:42. > :16:46.France and have lower unemployment. I agree with all of those points.
:16:47. > :16:50.Housing prices are ridiculous in this country. Why? Because we have a
:16:51. > :16:56.highly regulated housing industry. The government is to blame. We need
:16:57. > :17:01.to deregulate that industry. Do you think there is a correlation between
:17:02. > :17:08.minimum wage and unemployment? There must be, or we would be saying, why
:17:09. > :17:12.are we not increasing it to ?20? It must be basic economics to
:17:13. > :17:14.understand there will be a correlation and some economists are
:17:15. > :17:22.saying we will lose 60,000 jobs by 2020. The OP are, where that figure
:17:23. > :17:27.comes from, don't say 60,000 people will lose their jobs by 2020. They
:17:28. > :17:30.say that employment, which they projected to rise, will be 60,000
:17:31. > :17:37.lower than it otherwise would be, which is very different. So it is
:17:38. > :17:41.putting a value on people's entry to the job market. There was so much
:17:42. > :17:46.scaremongering with the minimum wage. We have to be careful. These
:17:47. > :17:50.aren't massive increases when you think about increases in living
:17:51. > :17:55.costs. I don't think the job losses is true. I was saving British public
:17:56. > :17:58.deserves more. On top of the minimum wage and an increase in that, we
:17:59. > :18:06.should have a real living wage. I should be saying we would have do
:18:07. > :18:11.something to address inequality. Is it a slight embarrassment for you,
:18:12. > :18:16.from the left, to have a Conservative Chancellor bring this
:18:17. > :18:18.in? Dime it is a pleasant surprise for many people, unions, those on
:18:19. > :18:24.the left that have been fighting hard to see increases in wages. It
:18:25. > :18:30.is a win for those on low incomes, but it isn't enough. It isn't a
:18:31. > :18:33.panacea. It doesn't solve all of the problems for this group. They will
:18:34. > :18:39.look at their bills coming in and going out and this is a small rise.
:18:40. > :18:44.But presumably employers will do the same and if they are paying more on
:18:45. > :18:48.the wage, aren't they going to take it off books or holiday? Businesses
:18:49. > :18:53.have a lot of options. In surveys we have done, 30% of the most common
:18:54. > :18:58.answer from businesses is that they will look to increase productivity.
:18:59. > :19:02.We don't have the most productive country. We have the biggest gap
:19:03. > :19:07.with the G7 average we have had in 20 years. There are things we can
:19:08. > :19:11.do. Well some businesses have to make difficult decisions about the
:19:12. > :19:20.hours people work etc? Yes, but their choices in politics. My worry
:19:21. > :19:23.is, while this policy may give George Osborne some short-term
:19:24. > :19:26.brownie points politically, in the long run it will harm exactly the
:19:27. > :19:35.sort of people it is intending to help foster that's exactly what was
:19:36. > :19:39.said in 1999. If we are looking at productivity, who is going to lose
:19:40. > :19:44.out? The most vulnerable. That is old-fashioned economics. The
:19:45. > :19:48.consensus of the economics profession is that, since the 1990s,
:19:49. > :19:57.wages in the minimum wage would harm employment. What is excessive? Let
:19:58. > :20:01.me give you an example. Britain has very cheap Labour compared to a lot
:20:02. > :20:04.of the world and as a result lots of businesses have chosen business
:20:05. > :20:09.models which are low investment and low productivity so we have a low
:20:10. > :20:12.productivity economy overall. Slightly higher pay packets,
:20:13. > :20:18.slightly higher wages at the bottom will, for some businesses at the
:20:19. > :20:21.margin, encourage them to invest in training and management practices.
:20:22. > :20:27.You don't believe there are people who are unemployed saying, if it
:20:28. > :20:31.wasn't for the minimum wage, I could get a job. That isn't the experience
:20:32. > :20:37.here, in the US, in academic literature. I think there is a
:20:38. > :20:41.broader structural point, which is that we see a growing number of
:20:42. > :20:47.low-paid jobs, more than other high income countries. It is about what
:20:48. > :20:53.comes first. If you increase page, it makes company owners think about
:20:54. > :20:57.what they need to do with their employees to increase productivity.
:20:58. > :21:01.Last question, does it matter if this country becomes more attractive
:21:02. > :21:08.to EU migrants for the living wage? Is that good or bad? I think that is
:21:09. > :21:15.a side point. It won't be what a lot of people. This will help British
:21:16. > :21:21.workers in work. And it may invite other people in and encourage others
:21:22. > :21:25.to join, but that isn't the point. I am all for helping British workers,
:21:26. > :21:29.but I think we should go for the safer option, which is to cut these
:21:30. > :21:35.high costs, such as fuel duty, energy prices, the situation around
:21:36. > :21:36.housing. That is how we should tackle this, not tampering with the
:21:37. > :21:39.market. Thank you. It's a brave woman who stands before
:21:40. > :21:41.a Newsnight audience late on a Friday night
:21:42. > :21:43.and talks about sleep. Today - on the back of a health
:21:44. > :21:48.warning from the Royal Society that we're all getting too little -
:21:49. > :21:51.we thought we'd take a look at the whole question
:21:52. > :21:53.of what - historically - has constituted
:21:54. > :21:55.a good night's sleep. Easy to think, perhaps,
:21:56. > :21:57.that the Amish get it right - and that pre-industrialised nations
:21:58. > :21:59.knew what nine hours' But in terms of the science
:22:00. > :22:03.of sleep, that could all be dopey. Talking of which,
:22:04. > :22:11.here's Stephen Smith. At Newsnight, we worry
:22:12. > :22:13.about you nodding off. Now don't be like that - we mean,
:22:14. > :22:17.are you getting enough kip? We are so sleep-deprived
:22:18. > :22:20.we are ready to go whenever there is a chance
:22:21. > :22:22.of a sit down, so often at the least
:22:23. > :22:25.opportune moment. And spare a thought for
:22:26. > :22:28.politicians themselves. After a good chunk of sleep
:22:29. > :22:34.when I'm out of here, Even after we are done
:22:35. > :22:43.with the presidency. But I am going to take three,
:22:44. > :22:45.four months We have come to Bucks to test
:22:46. > :22:53.the latest thing in power napping, They are meant for single
:22:54. > :22:56.occupancy, # When you're laying down
:22:57. > :23:06.next to me... We are two young men,
:23:07. > :23:14.just having a companionable nap. If that's wrong,
:23:15. > :23:19.I don't want to be right. Well, we have sold in 11
:23:20. > :23:43.countries so far and it's quite fashionable
:23:44. > :23:47.and right to look at napping because it is restorative.
:23:48. > :23:49.And that's what the companies use them for.
:23:50. > :23:52.Obviously you can overnight in them as well.
:23:53. > :23:54.So if you ever get a tube strike in central London
:23:55. > :23:57.and you can't get home, pop in the pod.
:23:58. > :24:00.In the 18th century, we, for example slept in two phases,
:24:01. > :24:04.then perhaps we would wake for a couple of hours.
:24:05. > :24:07.It was often a time used to pray, etc.
:24:08. > :24:10.Then we would have another four hours and then we would go
:24:11. > :24:13.about our day, but that was largely because when the lights went down,
:24:14. > :24:17.when the sun went down, at sort of eight in the evening, say,
:24:18. > :24:22.there was not much else you could do.
:24:23. > :24:26.We also make what we called pods for podtels,
:24:27. > :24:28.they are the modern version of the hostel.
:24:29. > :24:36.And we have got one on the south coast.
:24:37. > :24:43.A pod is a big improvement on the old iron bunk bed.
:24:44. > :24:52.The average adult sleeps for 6.8 hours a night but most of us say
:24:53. > :24:55.we would like a good hour on top of that.
:24:56. > :24:57.Getting regular, good quality sleep seems to play a vital role
:24:58. > :25:03.it increases our risk of, say, obesity.
:25:04. > :25:06.It also increases the risk of things such as diabetes
:25:07. > :25:14.With this research we now know that sleep is actually
:25:15. > :25:17.really important and it's often quoted as being some of the most
:25:18. > :25:22.powerful performance enhancers known to humankind.
:25:23. > :25:40.So where did this idea of the "right amount" of sleep come from?
:25:41. > :25:53.from the Institute of Sleep and Circadian Neuroscience.
:25:54. > :25:59.That is a wonderful title. I know you have done an extensive study of
:26:00. > :26:03.a huge number of people looking at their sleep patterns. Do you think
:26:04. > :26:11.there is a right amount of sleep for an average human? It doesn't work
:26:12. > :26:14.quite like that, but the answer is, yes, you are on average, seven to
:26:15. > :26:21.eight hours is a good amount of sleep on a regular basis. Is there
:26:22. > :26:26.such a thing as an early bird or a night owl? Does that exist in our
:26:27. > :26:32.DNA? Yes, there is. One of the most interesting things is that, at every
:26:33. > :26:38.hour of the day, there is someone who is naturally awake. The
:26:39. > :26:43.difference between the earliest, shall we say, a morning person and
:26:44. > :26:47.the latest evening person is about eight hours, a huge difference. So
:26:48. > :26:52.the people who are watching this programme now are much more likely
:26:53. > :26:59.to unite people. What does that tell you, in terms of the way we
:27:00. > :27:05.construct our society? Does it say that a certain group? Yes, at the
:27:06. > :27:10.moment, favouritism goes towards the early riser, so they are getting all
:27:11. > :27:13.the worms, they are being praised for being hard-working and many
:27:14. > :27:18.things which, to be fair, they don't deserve. The majority of people, who
:27:19. > :27:23.would like to sleep later in the day, they are having to get up
:27:24. > :27:28.early. So, at the moment, the people who really suffer are the people who
:27:29. > :27:34.are night owls, the people who are night-time people. When you say
:27:35. > :27:38.suffer, can you not just talk yourself into the right rhythm?
:27:39. > :27:47.Presumably that comes with a bit Vista mark it is genetic. --
:27:48. > :27:54.presumably that comes with habit. One of the problems we have is that
:27:55. > :28:00.they're fixed times. I have the mistake of saying that starting
:28:01. > :28:05.times for employment should really be 10am, not as early as they are at
:28:06. > :28:09.the moment. What do you think would happen if that were right? You would
:28:10. > :28:14.lose the productivity of your early birds, wouldn't you? It isn't
:28:15. > :28:19.straightforward. At the bottom of the pile are the people who are
:28:20. > :28:25.night people. Instead of losing one hour of work, they are losing two or
:28:26. > :28:30.three, so between 24 and 30. There are people out there who, as night
:28:31. > :28:35.people, are losing five hours every time they turn up at eight or 9am.
:28:36. > :28:39.Interstate was backward society, with a lot for shift work, can't you
:28:40. > :28:47.say that people find their own rhythms and work according to what
:28:48. > :28:52.they need? -- into Dave's society. That doesn't happen. If you have a
:28:53. > :28:57.genetic clock inside you which is telling you when to go to sleep, you
:28:58. > :29:00.can't train it. The key player is natural sunlight, so the people who
:29:01. > :29:05.have real problems of people on night shifts. Of course, this is
:29:06. > :29:10.well-known, that they are much more at risk of accidents and they have
:29:11. > :29:15.tremendous problems trying to sleep at the wrong time of day. That is
:29:16. > :29:20.one extreme. At the other extreme, there are people as the producer up
:29:21. > :29:27.here in Newcastle has been telling me awake quite naturally at 5:30am.
:29:28. > :29:29.Lucky boy! Thank you very much for joining us.
:29:30. > :29:33.We shall let you gracefully dribble into your
:29:34. > :29:35.empty glass and forget to turn the telly off
:29:36. > :29:39.But spare a thought before you go for our brave team of night owls
:29:40. > :29:43.right around the clock, ready at a second's notice,
:29:44. > :30:51.In between, a wet start for England and Wales. It will be out as it goes
:30:52. > :30:52.back into southern Scotland and