:00:00. > :00:17.Throughout Britain's history, we've been a sovereign nation.
:00:18. > :00:25.So do we want to take control back, or are we happy to share it?
:00:26. > :00:28.It's a special programme tonight on the EU, sovereignty and power.
:00:29. > :00:30.We'll visit this place, the sovereign principality
:00:31. > :00:33.of Sealand, to ask if it's better to be a small nation,
:00:34. > :00:41.with more direct control over your own affairs.
:00:42. > :00:44.We are a thorn in the side of the British government, I believe.
:00:45. > :00:46.They have try to control us in the past, unsuccessfully.
:00:47. > :00:48.But absolutely, it is not lawless, here.
:00:49. > :00:49.It is common-sense law, what you have.
:00:50. > :00:54.make the law, not because anybody else tells you?
:00:55. > :00:57.We'll ask our guests just how much of our lives Brussels controls,
:00:58. > :01:02.and we'll see how many of our laws come from the EU.
:01:03. > :01:06.This is the 1972 European Communities Act.
:01:07. > :01:09.This is it, the act that took us into the European Economic
:01:10. > :01:15.We'll ask this Cabinet minister and this former Commissioner
:01:16. > :01:18.if Brexit would give us more power back over our lives,
:01:19. > :01:20.or just lose influence over the rest of Europe?
:01:21. > :01:29.MUSIC: "500 Miles (I'm Gonna Be)" - The Proclaimers.
:01:30. > :01:34.# Forced on King John as he made off with the revenue.
:01:35. > :01:37.Does our culture of Magna Carta and liberty make it particularly
:01:38. > :01:47.hard for us to ever settle down in a bigger continental club?
:01:48. > :01:52.Good evening, it's more crowded than usual in here this evening -
:01:53. > :01:58.It's the first of six, in fact, over the next two months,
:01:59. > :02:05.each devoted to one big issue in the referendum campaign.
:02:06. > :02:10.And we are live blogging the each one of the website with extra
:02:11. > :02:14.background and analysis. Our goal in these programmes
:02:15. > :02:16.is to help you make up We'll look at the economy, security,
:02:17. > :02:21.migration, to name a few. But we picked perhaps the hardest
:02:22. > :02:23.one to start with: The word sovereign can refer
:02:24. > :02:29.to a king or queen, a gold coin or a holiday company,
:02:30. > :02:32.but for our purposes tonight, Is this country ruled
:02:33. > :02:36.by those we elect here, Most pertinently, can
:02:37. > :02:40.we kick out the authorities With me here, Lord Mandelson
:02:41. > :02:47.and Chris Grayling, for the In and Out sides
:02:48. > :02:50.of the argument. A panel of people
:02:51. > :02:51.with expert knowledge We have a group of undecideds
:02:52. > :03:07.here selected for us by the pollsters Ipsos Mori
:03:08. > :03:09.and, these poor souls, with us for each of our specials
:03:10. > :03:17.throughout the campaign. all about people like them -
:03:18. > :03:21.as the referendum will likely be lost or won by the people
:03:22. > :03:28.who could swing either way. I don't know how important you think
:03:29. > :03:32.sovereignty is that I think you think it is central to the
:03:33. > :03:40.referendum issue. I think it is vital, it is how we make laws, raise
:03:41. > :03:47.taxes, who governs our waters. It is a key issue. Everything derives from
:03:48. > :03:53.that? Lewis, I think you are someone who was not so taken with the issue.
:03:54. > :03:57.I think it was a topic that was least necessary for me to know
:03:58. > :04:04.because it is probably the hardest to pitch post-referendum. I will do
:04:05. > :04:12.something I should not do, show your hands. I will give you a choice, how
:04:13. > :04:17.many would say... Sovereignty is the most important issue, how many would
:04:18. > :04:23.say the economy? How many would put sovereignty above the economy as an
:04:24. > :04:29.issue? And how many would put the economy above sovereignty? OK, we
:04:30. > :04:33.will see whether by the end of the programme you are persuaded
:04:34. > :04:36.sovereignty is important. Angela, I am glad I picked you to start with.
:04:37. > :04:38.OK, before we get stuck into discussion in here,
:04:39. > :04:41.We wanted to start you off with some sovereignty basics.
:04:42. > :04:44.How might you look at the issue of what powers of self-determination
:04:45. > :04:47.we'd gain by leaving the EU, and what we'd possibly
:04:48. > :04:53.The case against the EU is simple - we should decide our laws,
:04:54. > :04:58.not subcontract them to a remote authority overseas.
:04:59. > :05:01.The case for the EU, was put by a former President
:05:02. > :05:04."In the age of globalisation, pooled sovereignty means more power,
:05:05. > :05:33.I've been giving a bit of thought to sovereignty and power.
:05:34. > :05:36.It is not a country you have probably visited.
:05:37. > :05:46.This is Sealand, a self-proclaimed micro-nation a few miles
:05:47. > :05:55.It is an old Second World War anti-aircraft
:05:56. > :06:02.It was outside territorial waters when claimed by
:06:03. > :06:06.They declared it a sovereign principality almost 50
:06:07. > :06:16.There is not much to do here - you can enjoy the views, and
:06:17. > :06:19.ponder on the meaning of what it is to be sovereign.
:06:20. > :06:21.It was seized by a man called Paddy Roy Bates.
:06:22. > :06:28.It is our frontier, it is our small slice of freedom in
:06:29. > :06:35.We are a thorn in the side of the British Government, I believe,
:06:36. > :06:38.because they have tried to control us in the past, unsuccessfully.
:06:39. > :06:39.But absolutely it is not lawless here.
:06:40. > :06:45.But it is up to you that you make the law, not
:06:46. > :06:47.because anyone else tells you to make the law.
:06:48. > :06:51.This is an extreme example of one sovereignty
:06:52. > :06:57.They have sovereignty here, but not much else.
:06:58. > :07:01.This is what some on the Remain side of the argument
:07:02. > :07:04.think Britain would be like if we left the EU.
:07:05. > :07:07.We would get our sovereignty back, but we would be an
:07:08. > :07:09.irrelevant outpost in the middle of the North Sea.
:07:10. > :07:12.You can be king of a castle, but only if it is a very
:07:13. > :07:18.Obviously this is a very extreme and ludicrous way of
:07:19. > :07:20.framing the sovereignty debate, but it does
:07:21. > :07:25.perhaps illustrate the
:07:26. > :07:28.potential dilemma between sovereignty and influence.
:07:29. > :07:31.If we leave the EU, we stop others interfering in our lives, but we can
:07:32. > :07:37.We gain power back over our own affairs, but we lose influence over
:07:38. > :07:50.Lest this all sounds a bit far-flung, go from the metallic hulk
:07:51. > :07:58.It provides an example of how our sovereignty is lost.
:07:59. > :08:05.We most definitely can't help it as you
:08:06. > :08:08.might want, as we have signed up to EU rules that restrict us bailing
:08:09. > :08:12.Vicky Pryce was chief economist at the
:08:13. > :08:21.Business Department and is a keen supporter of the Remain side.
:08:22. > :08:23.If you are looking at it from an economic
:08:24. > :08:26.perspective and business perspective, would you want us to
:08:27. > :08:29.have a level playing field with rules you understand and you could
:08:30. > :08:32.And you don't get all sorts of barriers there
:08:33. > :08:35.For that to happen you have to accept
:08:36. > :08:37.rules and regulations that apply for everybody,
:08:38. > :08:39.so you give up some of
:08:40. > :08:40.your sovereignty because you choose to do so,
:08:41. > :08:42.because it makes a lot of
:08:43. > :08:51.For EU supporters, sovereignty is a two-way street.
:08:52. > :08:58.We helped our car industry after the financial crash with a
:08:59. > :09:00.scrappage scheme, subsidising new cars turned in for old ones.
:09:01. > :09:03.We were not allowed to insist on the new
:09:04. > :09:06.cars being British, of course, but other countries could not favour
:09:07. > :09:15.Other countries had scrappage schemes at the same time,
:09:16. > :09:22.in fact we imitated some of the ones already in existence elsewhere.
:09:23. > :09:28.they were buying loads of our cars, so you could not say you should only
:09:29. > :09:31.buy UK-made cars when in fact we were happy to sell them to others
:09:32. > :09:33.who were buying them through their own scrappage scheme.
:09:34. > :09:41.So for example of our government wanted to subsidise a
:09:42. > :09:46.Under the EU state aid rules, the Austrians
:09:47. > :09:49.What on earth has it got to do with them?
:09:50. > :09:52.John Redwood is on the Out side of the debate.
:09:53. > :09:59.We have lost the right to govern ourselves.
:10:00. > :10:02.I think the British people and their Parliament should
:10:03. > :10:04.whether they should subsidise a particular way of
:10:05. > :10:06.generating power, and that is something
:10:07. > :10:10.normal country, the Parliament decides on the advice of people and
:10:11. > :10:19.it can become a topic for throwing them out
:10:20. > :10:23.Once you are in the European Union you have to ask the permission
:10:24. > :10:26.of the others or indeed you may do something
:10:27. > :10:32.which the others decide is
:10:33. > :10:37.illegal and the court will often back the others
:10:38. > :10:43.On Sealand, of course, there is not much of an energy industry and not
:10:44. > :10:47.Then others do not give much to Sealand.
:10:48. > :10:48.It seems to me we have a
:10:49. > :10:52.Do we want to stop making compromises for the sake of others,
:10:53. > :10:56.at the possible cost of them no longer compromising for the sake of
:10:57. > :11:00.Of course it would be nice if we did not have to make a choice.
:11:01. > :11:02.Boris Johnson said when it comes to cake,
:11:03. > :11:04.he is pro-having it and pro-eating it.
:11:05. > :11:06.Could we stay in the EU and have
:11:07. > :11:12.We are not the first country to grapple with this.
:11:13. > :11:17.There is a long EU history of argument over nations having vetoes
:11:18. > :11:20.over the bits they do not like and it was led by
:11:21. > :11:30.General De Gaulle, who returned to power
:11:31. > :11:33.having been as it were in
:11:34. > :11:35.exile, and he did not like what had been done.
:11:36. > :11:38.Under the treaty, which had been negotiated by his
:11:39. > :11:50.predecessors, there was to be a gradual increase in the use of
:11:51. > :11:52.majority voting so that one member state could not block
:11:53. > :11:54.particular measures, especially in agriculture
:11:55. > :11:56.and De Gaulle decided he would try to stop it.
:11:57. > :11:57.And his way of stopping it
:11:58. > :11:59.was to withdraw the French from all meetings.
:12:00. > :12:04.The French left an empty chair and for about six months from
:12:05. > :12:06.the middle of '65 to '66, the European community
:12:07. > :12:09.The veto gives each nation more power but
:12:10. > :12:11.makes the community of nations harder to govern.
:12:12. > :12:14.The others did not want to give the French veto on
:12:15. > :12:19.I can't even say agreement was reached on what became
:12:20. > :12:22.known as the Luxembourg compromise, because it was a unilateral
:12:23. > :12:27.statement by the French that became known as the Luxembourg compromise
:12:28. > :12:31.in which the French said if a member state invokes an important national
:12:32. > :12:34.interest on a subject then discussion should continue until a
:12:35. > :12:39.It was a classic Euro fudge and it eventually
:12:40. > :12:45.lapsed, as John Redwood found when he was a British minister.
:12:46. > :12:51.I agreed with the French view then and
:12:52. > :12:53.thought the Luxembourg compromise was necessary,
:12:54. > :12:54.but of course it did not work.
:12:55. > :12:57.It is a warning to people, do not trust them.
:12:58. > :12:59.We were told for years we may have signed nasty
:13:00. > :13:04.looking treaties, but don't worry, if something important came along
:13:05. > :13:07.you could use the Luxembourg compromise and you would get your
:13:08. > :13:11.Of course we did not use it and over the years of non-use it
:13:12. > :13:13.gradually lapsed and I remember on a couple
:13:14. > :13:15.of occasions saying to the
:13:16. > :13:17.government, maybe this is an occasion when we need
:13:18. > :13:19.to use the Luxembourg compromise and the official
:13:20. > :13:24.nobody wanted to go near it because it was row territory
:13:25. > :13:29.And one day you woke up and discovered that it was no
:13:30. > :13:33.The truth is there are advantages to being a small nation,
:13:34. > :13:37.Not having a veto, but not needing one.
:13:38. > :13:46.Here they can at least get decisions made quickly.
:13:47. > :13:48.The rules are made by my father, Prince Michael, as
:13:49. > :13:54.That is the reason Sealand was made into a principality, to simplify the
:13:55. > :14:03.That way you do not need to vote things through a parliament.
:14:04. > :14:08.Simple constitution not with the red tape,
:14:09. > :14:17.The debate over the use of the veto or the power of our
:14:18. > :14:22.Parliament to block EU legislation is pretty well over.
:14:23. > :14:26.We can pick and choose some of what we do in the EU
:14:27. > :14:30.but not all of it and if you don't like that, you should vote to leave.
:14:31. > :14:35.At least that is if you think sovereignty is all-important.
:14:36. > :14:38.But most of us have to do a little mental cost benefit test.
:14:39. > :14:41.If we leave the EU, do we value the powers
:14:42. > :14:51.And do we think we would lose influence anyway?
:14:52. > :14:53.As you weigh up that choice there is a first
:14:54. > :15:01.Living the British dream, or dreaming of a continental life?
:15:02. > :15:05.The closer to Europe you feel, the less
:15:06. > :15:07.you might worry about pooling power with Europeans.
:15:08. > :15:10.The lower the cost of being in the EU.
:15:11. > :15:16.Where is the essence where when I close my
:15:17. > :15:25.Gisela Stuart is a thoughtful campaigner for Brexit.
:15:26. > :15:29.I think in terms of say in the United
:15:30. > :15:32.Kingdom, nobody in London would object to paying more taxes to keep
:15:33. > :15:35.Northern Ireland as part of the UK, that is part of the union.
:15:36. > :15:39.If you go back to the European Union, the
:15:40. > :15:45.original six were pretty much a kind of demos.
:15:46. > :15:48.And you could have said Denmark and Austria, there was
:15:49. > :15:52.All I can tell you now is with 28 and growing, that
:15:53. > :15:55.demos has stretched itself beyond its limits.
:15:56. > :16:01.Only you know who you feel comfortable sharing your house
:16:02. > :16:03.with, your bank account with or your votes with.
:16:04. > :16:10.Are the British generally outliers in Europe?
:16:11. > :16:12.On average, are our values different from theirs?
:16:13. > :16:17.The Anglo-Saxons and probably a lot of
:16:18. > :16:18.the seafaring nations know one thing.
:16:19. > :16:20.That you cannot control the
:16:21. > :16:27.You find the whole of British politics,
:16:28. > :16:28.the system in the House of
:16:29. > :16:37.We never claim to define ultimate long-standing truths.
:16:38. > :16:38.We simply say, here is a problem, what
:16:39. > :16:41.One Parliament does not bind another.
:16:42. > :16:43.Because when circumstances change you may have
:16:44. > :16:47.No, we take a fundamentally different approach in
:16:48. > :16:50.the political decision-making process.
:16:51. > :16:53.There is a second question you might want to think about.
:16:54. > :16:56.Exactly how much influence do we have over the rest of the EU, so
:16:57. > :17:04.The interesting thing about the UK is that it has influenced
:17:05. > :17:09.If you look at what is going on right now, I would say a
:17:10. > :17:11.large percentage of the industry standards across Europe
:17:12. > :17:20.You can argue that even arch sceptic Prime
:17:21. > :17:23.Minister Thatcher had a big influence on the whole direction of
:17:24. > :17:25.the EU, even if she came to doubt its value.
:17:26. > :17:28.There was a move towards greater majority voting in order to
:17:29. > :17:30.Margaret Thatcher, Prime Minister at the
:17:31. > :17:33.time, although she did not like the idea of giving
:17:34. > :17:38.up veto in this area, she was the prime champion of the
:17:39. > :17:41.single market, it was part of her drive for greater competitiveness,
:17:42. > :17:43.both at home and in the European communities.
:17:44. > :17:45.She accepted these considerable changes across a wide
:17:46. > :17:52.So that we would move from a veto to majority voting.
:17:53. > :17:54.But not everyone agrees we get our way very
:17:55. > :18:02.And not everyone thinks the kinds of concessions we win are
:18:03. > :18:08.You see all the time we are concentrating on minor
:18:09. > :18:15.issues like what shape is a plug or the size
:18:16. > :18:19.the big issues of how do we spend our money?
:18:20. > :18:22.What taxes are we allowed to raise, how does our welfare
:18:23. > :18:24.system work, who was allowed to come to our country?
:18:25. > :18:27.The EU has moved on massively from just being a of trade
:18:28. > :18:30.As the referendum campaign progresses, you will hear a lot
:18:31. > :18:32.about the different countries Britain might emulate.
:18:33. > :18:35.You will not hear much about Sealand.
:18:36. > :18:37.But it might just help you think about
:18:38. > :18:47.sovereignty, power and the potential trade-offs between the two.
:18:48. > :18:50.I got back through Sealand passport control safe and well.
:18:51. > :18:52.And I'm joined here by Chris Grayling MP,
:18:53. > :18:54.one of the Cabinet ministers campaigning for Brexit.
:18:55. > :18:57.Lord Mandelson, the Labour politician and former
:18:58. > :19:00.European Commissioner, campaigning to Remain.
:19:01. > :19:02.And as well as our group of undecided voters,
:19:03. > :19:07.Sir Francis Jacobs, a former Advocate General
:19:08. > :19:16.Marina Wheeler QC, a barrister described by one newspaper
:19:17. > :19:19.as the "brains" behind her husband, Boris Johnson.
:19:20. > :19:21.The historian, Professor Robert Tombs and Siobhan Benita,
:19:22. > :19:24.who was a civil servant in several big departments and is now
:19:25. > :19:28.I want to start with the biggest question on sovereignty.
:19:29. > :19:31.Exactly how much control does the EU actually have over us?
:19:32. > :19:35.Is it just the single market stuff, or is the EU creeping into every
:19:36. > :19:50.Chris Grayling, you have written the U dominates our way of life. Is that
:19:51. > :19:53.true? -- that the EU. And we go to work in the morning, our workplace
:19:54. > :19:56.conditions are framed by the EU. When we travel to work, the safety
:19:57. > :20:01.standards around the transport system come on roads and railways
:20:02. > :20:05.are shaped by the EU. In regards to the countryside, the rules about
:20:06. > :20:08.agriculture are shaped by the EU is so are the rules around the
:20:09. > :20:12.environment. When we go shopping at the weekend, the rules that give us
:20:13. > :20:17.consumer rights are shaped. When we have issues in the news like asylum,
:20:18. > :20:21.the definition of an asylum seeker is saved by the EU and so on and so
:20:22. > :20:24.on. We look across the full range of government and look for an area of
:20:25. > :20:29.government activity that is not wholly or partly shaped by the EU
:20:30. > :20:34.and you are looking at quite a small number of areas. Let's focus, road
:20:35. > :20:37.safety that you imagine. You are not suggesting that we would not have
:20:38. > :20:46.road safety rules if there was not an EU. In practical terms, how
:20:47. > :20:50.different are what they are making us do from what we would do anyway?
:20:51. > :20:54.Wright let's take a practical example, Boris Johnson has argued
:20:55. > :20:58.for it, we've had terrible accident in London, cyclist being crushed by
:20:59. > :21:01.lorries. Boris has argued for improved ways of protecting cyclists
:21:02. > :21:06.on the roads, changing the way that lorries operate and are structured.
:21:07. > :21:10.It falls under EU rules and the French don't want to do it so he has
:21:11. > :21:15.said he has not been able to pursue that. But it's going to happen? It
:21:16. > :21:19.is a delay while they improve the lorries. It is a typical compromise
:21:20. > :21:22.to look after people with lorries. Boris would ban it tomorrow but the
:21:23. > :21:29.French say then that lorries could not drive on our roads. But it is a
:21:30. > :21:32.decision we can't take. Live animal transport, I personally don't
:21:33. > :21:36.believe we should carry live farm animals over very long distances in
:21:37. > :21:39.lorries. I think it's inhumane and we should stop doing it and probably
:21:40. > :21:42.the majority of people in this country would stop doing it but we
:21:43. > :21:47.can't because EU rules would allow us to do so. Another change we would
:21:48. > :21:50.put in place because I think it's right but we can't because the EU
:21:51. > :21:55.says it is their competency and they are not doing it. To go through some
:21:56. > :21:58.areas where the EU does not touch our stuff, I mean, it touches it all
:21:59. > :22:02.a little bit but the rules of the welfare system for British people
:22:03. > :22:07.are basically determined by ours. The welfare system is a good case in
:22:08. > :22:10.point. I was employment Minister for the first two and a half years of
:22:11. > :22:14.the last Parliament and you are right, the Lisbon Treaty, the most
:22:15. > :22:17.east -- most recent EU treaty says Social Security is a national
:22:18. > :22:20.confidence by the European Court has ruled that the provisions in the
:22:21. > :22:23.treaty would say people should have the freedom to move anywhere they
:22:24. > :22:28.want across Europe has been deemed by that court to trump the rights of
:22:29. > :22:32.the member states to decide their Social Security. But the bulk of
:22:33. > :22:37.where full rules and the bulk of taxes are made here, education,
:22:38. > :22:40.health funding, shopping, gay marriage. Increasingly, more wealth
:22:41. > :22:43.are rules are being shaped by decisions in the European Court even
:22:44. > :22:47.though they are supposed to be a matter for the UK, they are turning
:22:48. > :22:51.into European decisions. Peter Mandelson, do you acknowledge we
:22:52. > :22:55.have lost a lot of control? We have had some example there like animal
:22:56. > :23:03.transport. A very poor example because I remember legislation to
:23:04. > :23:06.protect animal welfare going through the commission when I was a member
:23:07. > :23:08.ten years ago. I'm not quite sure what Chris is talking about. It's a
:23:09. > :23:10.bit like Boris Johnson's claimed that there is an EU directive that
:23:11. > :23:18.prevents children from blowing up balloons, also rubbish. But you are
:23:19. > :23:21.not shying away... We do give up some sovereign tree. Absolutely not,
:23:22. > :23:29.I don't shy away from it for a moment. But the point I want to make
:23:30. > :23:34.is this... So you have given up some intrigue? Chris Como throughout his
:23:35. > :23:35.statements, talked about the US some autonomous, independent
:23:36. > :23:43.organisation, totally separate from us, making these laws and then
:23:44. > :23:47.imposing it on us. We make this law. We, the member states, make this
:23:48. > :23:51.law. We have a member of the European Commission who draws up
:23:52. > :23:55.these proposals in the first place. We have British members of the
:23:56. > :24:01.European Parliament who reflect the public's interest in that
:24:02. > :24:07.legislative system. There are British judges in the European Court
:24:08. > :24:15.of Justice. Sorry, you are not... We have 13% of the vote and they have
:24:16. > :24:18.87%. We, like every other member states, are part of this collective
:24:19. > :24:25.process of taking decisions, formulating legislation, pursuing
:24:26. > :24:32.policies and yes, in many cases, they are a compromise. Can I give
:24:33. > :24:35.you an example? It is not simply Britain standing aside in spend that
:24:36. > :24:39.isolation, agreeing with itself. That's the easiest thing in the
:24:40. > :24:43.world. But where there are things that we need to pursue legislation,
:24:44. > :24:49.that we need to introduce on an EU wide basis, then we are part of the
:24:50. > :24:55.system. Who do you think got rid of all the roaming charges for mobile
:24:56. > :25:00.phones? The European Union dead. Can I give a quick example? That is not
:25:01. > :25:03.wholly true. North Sea oil expression, after the Gulf of Mexico
:25:04. > :25:06.oil disaster, the commission decided it needed to step in and tighten
:25:07. > :25:11.safety standards, even though we already had in the North Sea the
:25:12. > :25:15.best safety standards in the world. It rewrote the safety practices. As
:25:16. > :25:18.a result, North Sea oil companies are now having to redo the way they
:25:19. > :25:28.work, even though what they were doing was safe in the first place.
:25:29. > :25:31.We could not stop that from happening because we are one of only
:25:32. > :25:33.two or three out of 28 member states... And are those companies
:25:34. > :25:36.complaining about our membership of the Eucharist among are they saying
:25:37. > :25:39.we should come out? They are complaining directly about the
:25:40. > :25:44.legislation. Chris has a long-standing track record and bete
:25:45. > :25:47.noire about health and safety legislation which is drawn up in
:25:48. > :25:53.Europe which he would like to see repealed. What I would say to you is
:25:54. > :25:57.that as a Cabinet minister, if you felt so deeply and passionately
:25:58. > :26:00.about a policy that has been formulated Rod Lawler that has been
:26:01. > :26:04.drawn up in Brussels, then you as a minister have a right to go there.
:26:05. > :26:08.My complaint about you and some of your colleagues is that you are so
:26:09. > :26:12.Euro phobic that oftentimes, you don't bother to go to Brussels, you
:26:13. > :26:16.don't bother to turn up at the meetings. That's not true, I've
:26:17. > :26:20.represented the UK at European Council meetings for five years,
:26:21. > :26:25.going to every council meeting that I've been invited to. I realise
:26:26. > :26:30.why... I realise why you are being so defensive about this. As you well
:26:31. > :26:34.know, many people in Whitehall believe that you hate the European
:26:35. > :26:38.Union so much that you won't bat for Britain by turning up at the
:26:39. > :26:43.meetings. I have been to every council meeting that I've been
:26:44. > :26:49.invited to for five years. I have never sent a junior minister but I
:26:50. > :26:52.have never either felt properly able to represent the UK's interest
:26:53. > :27:00.because I was consistently and always outvoted. So you sometimes
:27:01. > :27:04.did not turn up. That's not true. We will establish that later. I want to
:27:05. > :27:07.bring in a member of the panel, Siobhan Benita. Michael Gove said
:27:08. > :27:12.something quite interesting and I wonder if you can help us with this?
:27:13. > :27:15.I know UR a Remains a porter, you said, "As a minister, I've seen
:27:16. > :27:19.hundreds of new rules across my desk, you will, none of which were
:27:20. > :27:24.questioned by the UK Parliament, none of which I could alter in any
:27:25. > :27:27.way and none of which made us free, richer or fairer". In your
:27:28. > :27:31.experience in the civil service, how many bits of EU staff were rolling
:27:32. > :27:37.across the table? There are two perceptions in this debate which,
:27:38. > :27:41.Mike spirit of 15 years in the civil service, gets a bit muddled in this
:27:42. > :27:45.whole debate. One is exactly what Peter was saying, laws don't get
:27:46. > :27:50.imposed on us. We are there, around the table, negotiating each of those
:27:51. > :27:53.laws as they come in. Actually, UK civil servants are very good at
:27:54. > :27:56.getting what they wanted those negotiations. I think it is a
:27:57. > :28:00.misunderstanding to say somehow these things are done to us. There's
:28:01. > :28:05.not a separate of Brussels bureaucrat that we are not a part
:28:06. > :28:09.of. Peter has made that point. The second thing, I can honestly say in
:28:10. > :28:12.my time in the civil service, the EE you played a very small part in the
:28:13. > :28:17.policies I saw coming across my desk. -- the EU played. That might
:28:18. > :28:21.have been a reflection of the fact I worked in departments like the
:28:22. > :28:24.Department of Health for the last two years of my time in the civil
:28:25. > :28:29.service, after the coalition came in. The NHS reforms that we worked
:28:30. > :28:33.on for years, that were very messy going through Parliament, had very
:28:34. > :28:37.little, if anything to do with the EU. Mike spirit would have been the
:28:38. > :28:40.same in the Department for Education, I think. I think it's
:28:41. > :28:44.important as well that people realise it is not true that
:28:45. > :28:49.absolutely everything is controlled by the EU. I'm not doubting that
:28:50. > :28:52.some things are. So would you put yourself somewhere between Chris
:28:53. > :28:56.Grayling and Peter Mandelson? Would you put yourself with Peter
:28:57. > :29:01.Mandelson or closer to Chris Grayling? I'm definitely closer to
:29:02. > :29:05.Peter. We influence the areas where the EU governance or influences our
:29:06. > :29:09.policy-making. But there are a huge number of policy areas where the EE
:29:10. > :29:13.you have three little influence over what we do. Marina Wheeler, you
:29:14. > :29:18.wrote a piece about one of the ways in which the EU and extending
:29:19. > :29:22.influence into the UK which is essentially judicial, through the
:29:23. > :29:26.courts. Often, in fact, taking more power than anyone thought they
:29:27. > :29:31.would. You should explain the point because it was quite an influential
:29:32. > :29:35.piece will stop it is certainly true that the issue here, when one is
:29:36. > :29:39.looking at power, is not just legislation, although I certainly
:29:40. > :29:44.agree that there is a great deal of legislation. But the other really
:29:45. > :29:47.important actor is the court. Certainly, with the legislation that
:29:48. > :29:51.exists and the powers that exist, the court does interpret that and
:29:52. > :29:56.often takes a very expansively you a bit. But my particular point that I
:29:57. > :30:03.wrote about was something that is another further leap forward, the
:30:04. > :30:07.Charter of fundamental rights. Now, the Charter, I'm giving a little bit
:30:08. > :30:11.of background, just to explain for everyone's benefit, the charter is
:30:12. > :30:17.very like the convention on human rights that comes from Strasbourg.
:30:18. > :30:23.But it is a Luxembourg and EU version. So we have two charters? We
:30:24. > :30:26.have a convention and the charter which becomes important. The charter
:30:27. > :30:30.is a bit broader than the convention. It was originally
:30:31. > :30:35.conceived as part of a constitutional treaty but rejected.
:30:36. > :30:42.It was repackaged and appeared at Lisbon. The important point about
:30:43. > :30:48.the charter is that it is now being used as a way of challenging
:30:49. > :30:52.domestic legislation and EU legislation. The important point is,
:30:53. > :30:56.with the principle of supremacy of EU law, it can set aside national
:30:57. > :31:12.law and national provision. Do you recognise the court has
:31:13. > :31:18.extending power. The reason you have the European Court of Justice is
:31:19. > :31:22.there has to be a body that arbitrates in times of disputes when
:31:23. > :31:26.there are different interpretations of the law, somebody has to give a
:31:27. > :31:32.judgment. The question is whether that panel of judges have extended
:31:33. > :31:38.EU law areas we would not have thought we were signing up to when
:31:39. > :31:44.we joined. Do not recognise that. I hear the claim and do not recognise
:31:45. > :31:49.the reality and I want a Europe that supports values. I want a Europe
:31:50. > :31:53.that supports human rights. I want a Europe that stands up for
:31:54. > :32:00.individuals, minorities and their freedom. I would like those values
:32:01. > :32:04.to be reflected in the decisions of the other European institutions. I
:32:05. > :32:09.believe in those values. What proportion of time when we end up in
:32:10. > :32:12.the European Court, the UK ends up on the winning side? Funny you
:32:13. > :32:24.should mention that but I have a list here. I knew you would ask
:32:25. > :32:37.this. I rather like the UK wins over the clearing houses. Benefits
:32:38. > :32:44.migration, a case we brought. British taxpayers win ruling against
:32:45. > :32:52.Her Majesty's revenue... We win some and we lose some, Chris, I am
:32:53. > :32:56.afraid. Can I ask... Sir Francis Jacobs, you were an Advocate General
:32:57. > :33:04.at backcourt. Have they extended judicial power? I think it is
:33:05. > :33:09.reasonable to take the view the Court of Justice has taken a broad
:33:10. > :33:15.view of the powers conferred on the European Union. I think this is not
:33:16. > :33:19.particularly surprising, it is something you would find in modern
:33:20. > :33:24.democracies, that the courts tend to take a broad view of rights and
:33:25. > :33:28.powers conferred by the Constitution, certainly to take a
:33:29. > :33:35.broader view of fundamental rights which is regarded as a basic value
:33:36. > :33:41.in Europe, and should be. Rightly so. There is a difference between a
:33:42. > :33:48.Supreme Court in the United States for example and European Court of
:33:49. > :33:51.Justice. This is not a democratic country in his court over a
:33:52. > :33:56.constant, a club of nations, is there a difference? I do not and
:33:57. > :34:00.there is such a difference now. We have the European Court of Human
:34:01. > :34:06.Rights which is developing the basic rights of individuals through
:34:07. > :34:12.Europe, a larger Europe than the EU and it is not surprising in the
:34:13. > :34:15.scope of EU law, and it is only where the court has jurisdiction
:34:16. > :34:19.within the scope of EU law, that fundamental rights should be
:34:20. > :34:24.protected by the court. We need to move on. We have dealt with the
:34:25. > :34:26.courts and certain issues. Well, in the referendum campaign,
:34:27. > :34:28.there has been an attempt to encapsulate the argument
:34:29. > :34:31.about sovereignty into a single number - the proportion of the laws
:34:32. > :34:34.that govern us in this country that Is it most of the law -
:34:35. > :34:38.or just a bit? It would be lovely to be
:34:39. > :34:40.definitive about this. We asked Queenie, a British bulldog,
:34:41. > :34:42.a national symbol no less, She got the BBC's legal affairs
:34:43. > :34:45.correspondent, Like a lot of British citizens,
:34:46. > :34:55.Queenie, this British Bulldog is confused about just how much UK
:34:56. > :34:58.law is in fact now EU law. The claims vary so massively,
:34:59. > :35:06.it is really difficult to get The organisation Business
:35:07. > :35:12.For Britain, which campaigns for Britain to leave the EU,
:35:13. > :35:16.says over 60% of UK law If you stack up the entire EU rule
:35:17. > :35:24.book, it would be higher than Nelson's Column,
:35:25. > :35:29.which is an incredible amount of paperwork for British businesses,
:35:30. > :35:32.employees, all people who have to comply with this legislation
:35:33. > :35:34.that they have to deal with. That is cost and time added
:35:35. > :35:37.to their businesses. Others are sceptical
:35:38. > :35:39.as to whether calculating a percentage of EU law
:35:40. > :35:42.tells us anything at all. The critical thing
:35:43. > :35:47.is to look at impact. If you look at percentages,
:35:48. > :35:50.you end up with the number of laws, directives and regulations,
:35:51. > :35:52.which tells you nothing For impact, you need
:35:53. > :35:58.to look at these sectors where the regulations
:35:59. > :36:01.and the laws are made. In some sectors, the impact
:36:02. > :36:07.will be absolutely minimal. Between 1993 and 2014,
:36:08. > :36:16.Parliament passed 945 Acts, of which 231 implemented EU
:36:17. > :36:20.obligations of some sort. It also passed 33,160
:36:21. > :36:22.Statutory Instruments, which flesh out how
:36:23. > :36:29.a statute will work. 4283 of them implemented
:36:30. > :36:31.EU obligations. Add both of these together
:36:32. > :36:36.and divide by the total number of laws passed,
:36:37. > :36:38.and 13% of our laws If you want to know about UK law,
:36:39. > :36:47.this is the place where every piece of UK legislation is stored,
:36:48. > :36:51.including this one. This is the 1972
:36:52. > :36:55.European Communities Act. This is it, the Act that took us
:36:56. > :37:02.into the European Economic This is the act that gives direct
:37:03. > :37:06.effect to EU law in the UK. That is what gives rise
:37:07. > :37:10.to that 13% figure. But that figure is not entirely
:37:11. > :37:15.accurate because most EU regulations don't need new laws like these
:37:16. > :37:18.to bring them into effect. Most can be brought into effect
:37:19. > :37:21.without the need for legislation. For instance, by simply changing
:37:22. > :37:27.administrative rules. So if you count all EU regulations,
:37:28. > :37:32.EU-related Acts of Parliament, and EU-related Statutory Instruments,
:37:33. > :37:39.about 62% of laws introduced between 1993 and 2014 that apply
:37:40. > :37:46.in the UK implement EU obligations. Doing a simple count of laws is not
:37:47. > :37:48.really that useful. The Working Time Directive,
:37:49. > :37:51.which gives workers a minimum number of holidays and rest breaks,
:37:52. > :37:55.is pretty significant. The regulation classifying padded
:37:56. > :37:59.waistcoat in things like puffa But each counts as another EU law
:38:00. > :38:08.on the UK pile. As do EU-wide regulations governing
:38:09. > :38:11.the production of things like olive oil and tobacco,
:38:12. > :38:15.which we don't produce. If the UK votes to leave the EU,
:38:16. > :38:17.would we actually be We make cars and we want
:38:18. > :38:24.to sell them. We will have to make cars that
:38:25. > :38:26.comply with European rules. Whether we go down the Swiss model,
:38:27. > :38:29.the Norwegian model, the WT model or whatever,
:38:30. > :38:32.it is reality, not law. They will not accept our cars
:38:33. > :38:34.if they don't comply So Queenie, for a British
:38:35. > :38:42.bulldog like yourself, or a citizen like me who's been
:38:43. > :38:45.concerned about the issue, it is probably fair to say that EU
:38:46. > :38:48.law represents a significant part But to turn it into a
:38:49. > :38:51.numbers game? Come on,
:38:52. > :38:54.Queenie. Clive Coleman on the numbers,
:38:55. > :39:13.and how not to interpret them. before we move on can be agreed this
:39:14. > :39:18.numbers game, 13%, 62%, whatever it is, it is pointless. I would not
:39:19. > :39:23.argue in terms of numbers, the questions I would ask is in terms of
:39:24. > :39:28.impact, questions like if the EU brings forward a measure in
:39:29. > :39:32.financial services, North Sea oil, something similar, that will cost
:39:33. > :39:39.jobs in the UK, do we have the power to say we will not accept that? We
:39:40. > :39:43.don't. That is my problem. To be clear, you would not be going around
:39:44. > :39:52.saying, three quarters of laws come from Brussels? I don't put numbers
:39:53. > :39:56.on it. Peter Mandelson, do you agree, the 13% figure sometimes
:39:57. > :40:02.quoted by the Remain side is not helpful? I do not use the figures
:40:03. > :40:08.but I take issue with Chris, who talks about legislation, EU
:40:09. > :40:13.obligations, the terrible impact, as if it has been something done over
:40:14. > :40:20.which we have no influence. It is very fundamental. This is not
:40:21. > :40:24.legislation imposed on us, we are part of the legislative process and
:40:25. > :40:28.until Chris understands this he will not come to terms with the
:40:29. > :40:36.process... If he went to Brussels more often he might know and how it
:40:37. > :40:41.worked. I have been there more recently that you have, Peter. If
:40:42. > :40:48.the EU brings forward a measure that will cost jobs in the UK can we stop
:40:49. > :40:58.that happening? If we have been part of the less -- legislative process,
:40:59. > :41:01.if we have co-control with the European Parliament over what
:41:02. > :41:05.legislation goes through and we have been part of the legislation I
:41:06. > :41:11.accept we need to implement it, it is an obligation on us, but only
:41:12. > :41:20.because we have in a prior stage to its conclusion been part of its
:41:21. > :41:25.formulation. Sometimes we are outvoted. You have to accept the
:41:26. > :41:30.obvious, sometimes we are outvoted and you have to accept that as part
:41:31. > :41:36.of being a member. Which is why I want to leave. I think there is a
:41:37. > :41:40.different problem, which is often legislation that leaves the
:41:41. > :41:46.commission which has had a full impact assessment and is quite
:41:47. > :41:50.specific and people know it has to be contained, as it goes through the
:41:51. > :41:55.European Parliamentary process, it is often added to and made into a
:41:56. > :42:02.patchwork quilt and when it reaches the member states it is often
:42:03. > :42:06.extended, gold-plated, extended in coverage with the consequent impact
:42:07. > :42:11.on us at home, so it is not just Brussels and the European Commission
:42:12. > :42:16.it is the elected representatives in the European Parliament who also
:42:17. > :42:19.have a responsibility, but it is the member states whose job it is to
:42:20. > :42:22.contain the impact of legislation without any side effects.
:42:23. > :42:25.We've discussed how much power over our lives that we've lost
:42:26. > :42:30.But one of the main arguments for leaving is not about what we've
:42:31. > :42:33.lost, but what we might still lose in future, the fear of the EU
:42:34. > :42:50.Can I take it that is actually your deepest fear? It is important, we
:42:51. > :42:56.are not voting to stay in the EU as it is today, it will have to change
:42:57. > :43:00.and in order for the Euro to survive and we have seen the crisis,
:43:01. > :43:05.eurozone countries will have to do things in a harmonised way which
:43:06. > :43:08.they are saying so, talking about a eurozone Budget and Finance
:43:09. > :43:14.Minister, a greater social policy integration. We are talking about
:43:15. > :43:19.being on the fringes, one of only two member states not committed to
:43:20. > :43:25.being part of this, like being a 5% shareholder in a business where
:43:26. > :43:29.somebody else owns 95%. We will have no say as they take on the
:43:30. > :43:34.characteristics of an emerging United States of Europe. Peter
:43:35. > :43:42.Mandelson, can you give assurance that is not going to happen, we will
:43:43. > :43:46.not be on the edge of a big page? I think just because we have less
:43:47. > :43:51.influence because the eurozone is integrating as it is, does not mean
:43:52. > :43:56.we should draw the conclusion we should abandon all our influence and
:43:57. > :44:01.leave the European Union. The more substantive point is this and it is
:44:02. > :44:08.important for the future. In my judgment, we have seen the last two
:44:09. > :44:13.great political projects of the European Union. One is the single
:44:14. > :44:19.currency, of which we are not part and are not going to be, and
:44:20. > :44:24.secondly, the Schengen zone, the open borders, and why do I think
:44:25. > :44:30.they will be the last smack two reasons. First the public in Europe,
:44:31. > :44:36.not just in Britain, has no hunger for deepening the integration and
:44:37. > :44:39.constructing a further political project within the ambit of the EU
:44:40. > :44:47.and secondly the member states who control the European Union, it is an
:44:48. > :44:51.intergovernmental organisation essentially, would much prefer to
:44:52. > :44:58.see the European Union do better and take on... The responsibilities it
:44:59. > :45:04.has rather than broaden... I think the argument goes to make those
:45:05. > :45:11.projects work, to make your own work, they need to integrate they
:45:12. > :45:17.need fiscal union, political union, they need to be more like a country.
:45:18. > :45:23.You won't have France and Germany ceasing to be nation states because
:45:24. > :45:26.they are in the Eurozone. What is important, Evan, if I may say that
:45:27. > :45:31.we need to maximise our influence on what goes on in the Eurozone because
:45:32. > :45:37.its success or failure will directly affect us. That is very important.
:45:38. > :45:44.Let me bring in Robert. Do you see some trajectory, a sweep of history,
:45:45. > :45:48.if you like, that takes the Eurozone towards something closer to a nation
:45:49. > :45:53.state? How much does that worry you about the role of the UK on the edge
:45:54. > :45:56.of it? In a way it does but I don't see it in the same with either of
:45:57. > :46:00.your distinguished guests. Firstly, I don't think it would work, at
:46:01. > :46:04.least not in a democratic way. It is hard to see any sovereign body
:46:05. > :46:08.within the youth. If there were one, they would be able to solve the Euro
:46:09. > :46:12.crisis and the refugee crisis. It is clear that there's a gap in the
:46:13. > :46:17.middle, a void the centre of Europe. It seems that the member states are,
:46:18. > :46:21.as it were, losing sovereignty but there is no one taking it up and
:46:22. > :46:26.running Europe on our behalf. What we seem to be having, therefore, is
:46:27. > :46:30.a dysfunctional and probably unworkable system of very many
:46:31. > :46:33.nations which, if they are very lucky, might turn into something
:46:34. > :46:37.like the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which was able to be run by keeping
:46:38. > :46:40.everyone in an equal stake of unhappiness is one of its prime
:46:41. > :46:43.ministers said but it is difficult to see it working in an effective
:46:44. > :46:48.way. If things go wrong, and things do go wrong, there is no one who is
:46:49. > :46:53.a sovereign to make the final decision is binding on everyone. No
:46:54. > :46:57.one say, "Here are the refugees, this is the number you will have and
:46:58. > :47:01.this is the number you will have". No one can say that. That's not
:47:02. > :47:05.right, there's a European Council of member states who at the end of the
:47:06. > :47:10.day, calls the shots in the European Union. We all know that. The
:47:11. > :47:13.European Commission services it and implements and executes what the
:47:14. > :47:17.member states want. The European Parliament adds to it, quite
:47:18. > :47:21.rightly. The European Court of Justice will arbitrate when there
:47:22. > :47:25.are disputes or legal interpretations to be made. But at
:47:26. > :47:28.the end of the day, the European Union is owned by its member states
:47:29. > :47:34.including Britain. It is they who will call the shots and decide
:47:35. > :47:38.through their agreement how the refugee crisis or any other crisis
:47:39. > :47:41.is managed. They may not do it instantly. They may not do it
:47:42. > :47:45.perfectly bit silly end of the day, they will get there, with a little
:47:46. > :47:48.bit of give and take and compromise but that is what being in an
:47:49. > :47:54.organisation like the European Union is all about. Robert? As you said,
:47:55. > :48:00.we're not really in it, we are half out of it or three quarters. Who? We
:48:01. > :48:04.are not in the Eurozone and we are not in Schengen. We are full members
:48:05. > :48:07.of the European Union. We are full and equal members of the European
:48:08. > :48:12.Council and full and equal members of the European Parliament. We have
:48:13. > :48:16.our own personal the European Commission. And we have no control
:48:17. > :48:20.at the Eurozone policy, surely? Orange Mackreth we don't want to be
:48:21. > :48:24.in the Eurozone. But if the Eurozone, as you hope, becomes more
:48:25. > :48:28.successful, would you like us to join? No, we took a decision some
:48:29. > :48:33.time ago as the government to keep open the option of joining and then
:48:34. > :48:37.deciding not to and that position stands. We were right then and we
:48:38. > :48:40.are right now. I don't see the circumstances in which Britain is
:48:41. > :48:44.going to go into the single currency. Let's take a pause, there.
:48:45. > :48:45.We can come back to this in a moment.
:48:46. > :48:53.You have been listening as we talked about the power of the European
:48:54. > :48:57.Court and the number of laws and the kinds of control and examples of the
:48:58. > :49:02.kind of control that Brussels exerts and what we can do and what we can't
:49:03. > :49:05.do. Peter Mandelson has talked about how we do also shake those laws, we
:49:06. > :49:09.are not just passive victims of things being imposed on us. Any
:49:10. > :49:14.comments or thought as we listen to the compensation so far? I will pick
:49:15. > :49:21.on one of you if you don't put your hands up! Yes. It seems to me that
:49:22. > :49:27.there is a wish to engage with all of the other member states. It seems
:49:28. > :49:34.to me that we want to then try and exert some sort of control over them
:49:35. > :49:40.will stop but there does not seem to be anything that guarantees that we
:49:41. > :49:44.will have a degree of control. Know because we are only one vote. It is
:49:45. > :49:49.down to us and our future European members of Parliament to see how
:49:50. > :49:54.they perform. But some of the stuff that Chris said, I must say, scared
:49:55. > :50:05.me a bit. It was meant to. I think it is important. What did I say that
:50:06. > :50:11.was wrong or inaccurate? Any questions for the experts from the
:50:12. > :50:14.panel? Any others of you, Lewis? I have a question, in terms of us
:50:15. > :50:19.producing things like vehicles, cars, anything. Will it then become
:50:20. > :50:25.harder for us to go to the European markets if we do leave? That's a
:50:26. > :50:29.very good question for Chris Grayling. What is going to happen is
:50:30. > :50:32.we're going to try to be the single market if we leave, aren't we? And
:50:33. > :50:37.then we're going to sign up to all the things we talked about that you
:50:38. > :50:40.make like French road safety rules... We will seek to trade
:50:41. > :50:44.freely with the European Union and we will be able to do so because we
:50:45. > :50:47.buy far more from them than they do from us. Can you confirm that when
:50:48. > :50:54.we agree to go back into the Zingle or get the access to their markets,
:50:55. > :50:57.do you agree or not that we will have to reinstate many of the things
:50:58. > :51:02.that you have said you don't like? -- when we agreed to go back into
:51:03. > :51:08.the single market. We loose country from that. Not within the UK. So
:51:09. > :51:11.different standards from the rest of Europe? If we sell things in the US,
:51:12. > :51:16.we have to meet their standards and the same with Japan. We would be
:51:17. > :51:19.able to, despite what Peter says, for example, to ban live animal
:51:20. > :51:25.transport which is not legal today and has not been -- illegal today
:51:26. > :51:31.and we have not been allowed to ban it because of EU rules. What about
:51:32. > :51:36.the 10% tariff that would be placed on car exports to the continent of
:51:37. > :51:44.Europe? 10%. What about the 28% on chemicals? What about the 11th cent
:51:45. > :51:48.and 13% on food and beverages? The point is that we buy far more from
:51:49. > :51:51.them than they do from us. Does anybody seriously believe that the
:51:52. > :51:55.German government is going to say to its car-makers, and the French
:51:56. > :51:58.government is going to say to its nasty bombers, who blocked the
:51:59. > :52:01.motorways when there is trouble, "We are going to stop you selling to the
:52:02. > :52:08.British or we are going to make it more expensive"? So you are willing
:52:09. > :52:12.to say we will ban the W X balls to the UK because you are not giving us
:52:13. > :52:18.access to your market? We are not going to ban exports and neither are
:52:19. > :52:22.they. Aren't they going to say, you are in the single market and you
:52:23. > :52:26.have to obey the rules, for example go on the lorry standards, the
:52:27. > :52:29.trucks that can drive on the roads? You can't be in the single market
:52:30. > :52:33.with a different set of rules. The very rules that you have talked
:52:34. > :52:37.about, to be in the single market on agriculture, there will be one rule
:52:38. > :52:40.for the transport of live animals, one rule for lorries which will get
:52:41. > :52:45.you the dangerous lorries that Boris wants to ban. That implies in North
:52:46. > :52:54.America as well, the North Americans have two B-cell their own lorries.
:52:55. > :52:57.This is our home market of 500 million people. We have a massive
:52:58. > :53:02.trade visit from them, we buy more from them than they do from us. If
:53:03. > :53:06.we bark on leaving the European Union, will we then embark on an
:53:07. > :53:10.elaborate negotiations to get ourselves back in the single market?
:53:11. > :53:15.We will have an agreement because it is invariant rest. So having voted
:53:16. > :53:19.to come out, we will embark on a prolonged negotiation to get
:53:20. > :53:23.ourselves back? Let's get into this with the economic expert. We are
:53:24. > :53:27.going to get to this in the economic programme. Chris Grayling, we will
:53:28. > :53:30.get to this all in the programme in a couple of weeks.
:53:31. > :53:32.In this discussion of sovereignty, we don't want to overlook British
:53:33. > :53:34.history and heritage, and the question of whether our
:53:35. > :53:38.We are taught about 1066 and all that, the fight
:53:39. > :53:44.for liberty, Magna Carta, and all that it is to be British.
:53:45. > :53:46.# Magna Carta. # Magna Carta?
:53:47. > :53:59.# He's got to be subject to law # Left to Henry III
:54:00. > :54:07.and Edward I to pass it through. # Since 1215, Magna Carta's been #
:54:08. > :54:15.The foundation of our democracy. Horrible Histories' take
:54:16. > :54:17.on Magna Carta, and the founding of a British political culture that
:54:18. > :54:23.still resonates today. We're joined again by our panel,
:54:24. > :54:26.with the constitutional historian Vernon Bogdanor replacing
:54:27. > :54:39.Sir Francis Jacobs I want to put to the panel of
:54:40. > :54:46.voters, I want you to shut your eyes and say to yourself the word, "We".
:54:47. > :54:51.We heard one of the speakers in an earlier video saying when you shut
:54:52. > :54:57.your eyes and think of, "Weak", you have a particular community in mind.
:54:58. > :55:05.How many of you were thinking, "We British", when you did that? And how
:55:06. > :55:10.many were thinking, "We Europeans"? Really? Is that because we are
:55:11. > :55:14.having a conversation about it? I think it probably is because we are
:55:15. > :55:18.having a compensation about it. Today, I am feeling a sense of
:55:19. > :55:24.wanting to be a part of something bigger, for some reason, being here
:55:25. > :55:29.today. Very interesting. Robert, you have written quite a lot about
:55:30. > :55:32.British history. Do you think that British culture, political culture
:55:33. > :55:39.struggles to fit with the European one? If it does, that would make
:55:40. > :55:43.sovereignty harder to swallow? It clearly does because we have always
:55:44. > :55:47.had a different view of the European project than most of our partners
:55:48. > :55:51.have. I think the reasons are pretty simple and they don't go back all
:55:52. > :55:55.that far. We have rather less to be worried about. If you think of the
:55:56. > :56:00.history of Europe in the last century, it is one that for many of
:56:01. > :56:03.our neighbours has been a history of wars, civil wars and dictatorships
:56:04. > :56:07.and foreign occupation and so on. For them, the U is an escape from
:56:08. > :56:15.the nightmare of the last hundred years. It is not really the same
:56:16. > :56:18.forest. -- the EU. Whether it is good or bad, we are not willing to
:56:19. > :56:20.make the same kind of sacrifices to stay in the project that many
:56:21. > :56:24.countries like Greece are. Vernon Bogdanor, do you think there is a
:56:25. > :56:28.cultural misfit that makes pooling sovereignty with Europe difficult?
:56:29. > :56:32.There may be and we have often seen ourselves a separate from Europe but
:56:33. > :56:34.of course twice in the last century, the governments which wanted to
:56:35. > :56:38.isolate themselves from Europe found themselves forced into world wars
:56:39. > :56:43.because of events that happened in far-away parts of Europe. Neville
:56:44. > :56:47.Chamberlain spoke of jokers of actor as a far-away country of which we
:56:48. > :56:49.know nothing. I think the European project is very important for
:56:50. > :56:53.bringing together countries which previously fought each other.
:56:54. > :56:57.Everyone says that Germany and France will never fight each other
:56:58. > :57:01.again. I'm sure that's right but in the Balkans, we see ancient hatreds
:57:02. > :57:06.which are only kept together by the European Union and the possibility
:57:07. > :57:10.of entering it. A Europe that is broken up into national states might
:57:11. > :57:13.be very dangerous for us. We can't, whatever we think escape from what
:57:14. > :57:17.is happening on the continent. Therefore, there is an argument for
:57:18. > :57:20.saying we should be there to influence what is happening on the
:57:21. > :57:24.continent. I think this is an aspect which is often left out of the
:57:25. > :57:27.debate. Chris Grayling, I want to put this point to you. You said we
:57:28. > :57:33.will be a little thing on the edge of a big nation called Eurozone. Why
:57:34. > :57:37.does that mean we should come out? Why wouldn't you stay in to
:57:38. > :57:41.influence it as much as you can? You won't have influence over it if
:57:42. > :57:44.you're outside of it completely? Two things, the organisation that has
:57:45. > :57:47.kept the peace in Europe is Nato rather than the European Union, in
:57:48. > :57:52.my view, which has played an enormously important role in ending
:57:53. > :57:55.the divide which took root in Europe after the second model and help
:57:56. > :57:59.provide peace and prosperity and in the eastern Mediterranean today,
:58:00. > :58:03.Nato is dealing with the migrant crisis, not the European Union. In
:58:04. > :58:06.terms of our influence, what matters to me is the ability did event and
:58:07. > :58:11.look after our national interest. We have not spoken at all about
:58:12. > :58:15.migration to night... We are doing that in another programme. Or the
:58:16. > :58:18.issue of housing where we have huge pressure already, we are bringing in
:58:19. > :58:29.a population the size of Newcastle to the country every year and yet we
:58:30. > :58:32.have no power ourselves to set limits on the number of people who
:58:33. > :58:34.come and live and work here. It's not about closing the door
:58:35. > :58:37.altogether but we can't even set limits as part of the European
:58:38. > :58:39.Union. It is an example where we cannot take a decision in our
:58:40. > :58:42.national interest and I think we should be an independent nation able
:58:43. > :58:42.to do that. Chris Grayling, thank you.
:58:43. > :58:47.I want to give the last word to the panel. What has been the most
:58:48. > :58:53.important thing you have heard the night, the thing that has weighed
:58:54. > :58:59.most heavily? I liked the historian Feller, sorry, I forgot your name!
:59:00. > :59:03.He said the EU was set up to stop warring nations fighting each other,
:59:04. > :59:07.keep them on the same side. I'm Irish and I feel more European. I
:59:08. > :59:12.think there's a place for closer integration with these countries. It
:59:13. > :59:16.has brought travel, opened up many people's eyes in the world. Most of
:59:17. > :59:20.you said you did not think some entry was as important as the
:59:21. > :59:24.economy. How many of you still think the economy is more important than
:59:25. > :59:26.sovereignty? We've had a debate on sovereignty but how many of you
:59:27. > :59:35.think the economy is the more important issue? My goodness! Any
:59:36. > :59:39.more final points from the panel? I think when Lord Mandelson said that
:59:40. > :59:46.you know, it is give and take within this union, I think that is a very
:59:47. > :59:52.valid point, to state that if you are part of the union, Europe, you
:59:53. > :59:57.have to take, some you win and some you lose. Basically, I agree with
:59:58. > :59:59.that. We need to leave it there. Everybody gets squeezed in these
:00:00. > :59:59.mammoth Our live blog page is still filing
:00:00. > :00:05.material, for another half hour Sovereignty is a strangely
:00:06. > :00:10.abstract word for an issue that is all
:00:11. > :00:21.about power and control. I hope you have found much of what
:00:22. > :00:24.you have heard useful. In seven days' time, we will be discussing
:00:25. > :00:34.security but that is all from us tonight.
:00:35. > :00:42.Hello. We will continue to see some very big differences in the weather
:00:43. > :00:43.across the UK on Tuesday. The more persistent rain is going to be