:00:00. > :00:00.Another example of opaque financial affairs tonight.
:00:07. > :00:10.Someone who's been handsomely renumerated.
:00:11. > :00:14.No, tonight we have the story of Labour's spokesman
:00:15. > :00:37.That will remain between myself and...
:00:38. > :00:45.We're on the Referendum Road - hearing from the people
:00:46. > :00:50.Spanish, French, seem to be able do what they want to with the fishing
:00:51. > :00:55.and we're not allowed to, so it is just time we came out.
:00:56. > :01:00.Sexism from MPs in the parliamentary lobby.
:01:01. > :01:11.Or a deeper problem in an old boys' club?
:01:12. > :01:16.The innovative film director Peter Greenaway, on his new film
:01:17. > :01:33.For ten days, since the Panama Papers were leaked,
:01:34. > :01:35.financial morality has been top of the news.
:01:36. > :01:38.The tricks of the rich have been on parade, the word "dodgy"
:01:39. > :01:43.At issue, whether people manage to usurp more than their share
:01:44. > :01:48.Concerns undoubtedly accentuated by the news today,
:01:49. > :01:50.that BP shareholders were voting on the chief executive's
:01:51. > :01:56.As Jeremy Corbyn said on Monday, "There is now one rule
:01:57. > :01:58.for the super rich, and another for everyone else."
:01:59. > :02:07.So what does he, and others who have been pointing fingers,
:02:08. > :02:09.make of the behaviour of Labour's spokesman on trade unions?
:02:10. > :02:13.He used to be general secretary of the National Union
:02:14. > :02:17.Most of the union's cash then came from donations from sick,
:02:18. > :02:27.Eyebrows have already been raised at the remuneration Mr Lavery
:02:28. > :02:30.received, but Newsnight has learned that he was also given a generous
:02:31. > :02:35.mortgage by the union, well below the market rate.
:02:36. > :02:39.Mr Lavery denies any irregularity, but the accounts are opaque.
:02:40. > :02:48.John Sweeney has been poring over them.
:02:49. > :02:56.Back in the day the coal miners dug deep to make Britain rich. But, at a
:02:57. > :03:00.price. More than 4 billion has been paid in compensation, to men who
:03:01. > :03:04.suffered from lung disease, and other illnesses.
:03:05. > :03:08.The national union of mineworkers helped their members get the
:03:09. > :03:14.compensation, and in return, miners could tick a box. Gifting a part of
:03:15. > :03:20.their money to the union. This is a story about what happened
:03:21. > :03:29.with some of that money in the NUM Northumberland area.
:03:30. > :03:33.That was the Labour Party is best defending the trade union movement.
:03:34. > :03:38.Before Ian Lavery became an MP in 2010 he had been the General
:03:39. > :03:44.Secretary of the miner's union in Northumberland for 18 years.
:03:45. > :03:51.I told the common,s, I said I'm the most experienced man here, with
:03:52. > :03:57.regards to the trade union bill. I have been assaulted on picket lines
:03:58. > :04:02.and I have been on strike more than anybody in the Commons. He is now
:04:03. > :04:08.Jeremy Corbyn's front bench spokesman on trade unions.
:04:09. > :04:12.So what happened on his watch as the NUM's Northumberland area boss is
:04:13. > :04:18.instructive. The first line on the graph shows the amount of money
:04:19. > :04:23.spent on members' benefits from 1992 on wards, the year Lavery became
:04:24. > :04:27.General Secretary, the second line, Lavery's pay.
:04:28. > :04:34.In 2010, Lavery quit the union and was elected MP for Wansbeck, one of
:04:35. > :04:38.the safest Labour constituencies in the country. Mr Lavery got
:04:39. > :04:42.redundancy money and that feels odd because it seems as though he
:04:43. > :04:49.effectively resigned to go and work in that place behind me. The dosh we
:04:50. > :04:54.think ?62,000. But on top of that there is a further 58,00 pounds,
:04:55. > :04:58.paid out to past General Secretary redundancy costs. -- 85,000 and
:04:59. > :05:04.there is a mystery about who that is.
:05:05. > :05:08.Mr Lavery started at the union in 1992. He has told us that he did
:05:09. > :05:15.receive a redundancy payment in 2013. When the ?85,000 pops up on
:05:16. > :05:21.the union's accounts, so on the face of it, it looks like the mystery
:05:22. > :05:27.beneficiary of the mystery ?85,000 is Ian Lavery.
:05:28. > :05:30.These numbers are reasonable. The argument could be made if the
:05:31. > :05:35.National Union of Mineworkers Northumberland area had thousands of
:05:36. > :05:38.members, but the world has moved on. All the pits are closed, the
:05:39. > :05:46.industry is dead. And the union moribund. How many members has it
:05:47. > :05:48.got? Just six people. Mr Lavery has certainly benefitted from the union
:05:49. > :05:55.in other ways. This is his house in Ashington,
:05:56. > :06:01.bought in 1994 for ?75,000. Like most people, he got a mortgage.
:06:02. > :06:06.Unlike most people, the lender was not a bank but the National Union of
:06:07. > :06:09.Mineworkers Northumberland area's provident and benevolent fund.
:06:10. > :06:14.Newsnight has obtained these documents that show that Ian Lavery
:06:15. > :06:21.got a mortgage at an exceptionally generous rate. A typical mortgage in
:06:22. > :06:30.1994 attracted an interest rate of round 8%. Lavery's loan from the
:06:31. > :06:36.fund was at just 3%. There is another mystery in the accounts, a
:06:37. > :06:44.fund loan worth ?109,000 written off in 2007. The year when Mr Lavery
:06:45. > :06:50.says his mortgage arrangement ended. Newsnight has been doing some sums.
:06:51. > :06:56.?109,000 is pretty much exactly what you would expect Mr Lavery to owe
:06:57. > :07:05.had he made none or virtually no remaim on his mortgage. Was the
:07:06. > :07:09.109,00 pounds written off by the union actually ?109,000 owed Mr
:07:10. > :07:13.Lavery. Mr Lavery says all of this is a private matter.
:07:14. > :07:21.He does say that regular mortgage payments were made, but not by whom.
:07:22. > :07:26.Hello. Since news might began in investigation, we have repeatedly
:07:27. > :07:30.asked Mr Lavery for an interview. We went to his constituency office in
:07:31. > :07:34.Northumberland. To begin with, they wouldn't reply to our e-mails. They
:07:35. > :07:40.wouldn't return our phone calls, they wouldn't even open the door.
:07:41. > :07:43.Eventually, we got an e-mail from Ian Lavery but there are questions
:07:44. > :07:50.unanswered. So, time to catch up with him. Near Westminster.
:07:51. > :07:55.John Sweeney from news might. You got the mortgage from the union.
:07:56. > :08:02.Yes. Did you pay it off? The union and myself came to a financial
:08:03. > :08:05.agreement in 2007, in relation to mortgage which will remain private
:08:06. > :08:10.between myself and the union. That was the agreement. OK. But you were
:08:11. > :08:14.the General Secretary of the union. Yes. So you are agreeing with
:08:15. > :08:18.yourself, it looks as though. It looks as though you raided the
:08:19. > :08:21.onion's piggy banks That is unfairment We are here to ask you a
:08:22. > :08:26.question. Did you pay off your mortgage? My mortgage was paid off
:08:27. > :08:30.with the National Union of Mineworkers in a financial agreement
:08:31. > :08:34.which was acceptable to both parties. You are talking with
:08:35. > :08:37.yourself. I was never involved in any of the negotiations at the
:08:38. > :08:41.beginning of the mortgage, I was never involved with any of the
:08:42. > :08:46.negotiations at the conclusion. That is absurd. You might wish to say
:08:47. > :08:50.that but it isn't. It is unfair to say that, because these... Why is
:08:51. > :08:53.that unfair? You were the General Secretary of the union and the union
:08:54. > :08:59.gave you a mortgage and you haven't answered the question. Did you pay
:09:00. > :09:03.it off? For the sake of clarity, for the sake of clarity, any business
:09:04. > :09:05.done with regard to the General Secretary, I wouldn't financially
:09:06. > :09:14.business I wouldn't be involved in. What I will say once again, to you,
:09:15. > :09:20.that the mortgage was settled in 2007, between the trustees... Did
:09:21. > :09:24.you pay it off? In 2007, between myself and the union, and that was
:09:25. > :09:30.done on a private basis. You paid off the mortgage? That will remain
:09:31. > :09:33.between myself and the National Union of Mineworkers. Of which you
:09:34. > :09:38.were the General Secretary at the relevant time. Yes. So it looks like
:09:39. > :09:43.an inside deal? Disgraceful to suggest such a thing. I have get to
:09:44. > :09:48.commons, I have a meeting. I hope I have answered your questions. You
:09:49. > :09:54.haven't really I hope I have been polite enough to try. You haven't
:09:55. > :09:57.answer the principle question. I have spent ten minute hearse
:09:58. > :10:03.answering the questions and I have e-mailed you, so thank you very
:10:04. > :10:07.much. Thank you. Rightfully or wrongly, the public
:10:08. > :10:10.are demanding more and more transparency from the politicians,
:10:11. > :10:16.as to where they get their money from. On the question of Mr Lavery's
:10:17. > :10:19.mortgage, he has been as transparent as the river behind me.
:10:20. > :10:23.John Sweeney there, who worked on that with producer Ed Brown.
:10:24. > :10:29.As we went to air, Labour gave us this short statement:
:10:30. > :10:31.Voluntary donations made by miners all went
:10:32. > :10:40.into the general fund and none went into the benevolent fund.
:10:41. > :10:43.You probably remember the reform of the English NHS back in 2012.
:10:44. > :10:45.A reorganisation that got rather little scrutiny at first,
:10:46. > :10:48.then there was disquiet, which then turned to large scale
:10:49. > :10:50.discontent, and then some redrawing of the plans.
:10:51. > :10:57.Well, are we heading down a similar path now, with the reform
:10:58. > :11:04.The Government's plan is to take schools out of local
:11:05. > :11:07.authority control, by turning them all into academies.
:11:08. > :11:09.It's had some attention, but given the magnitude
:11:10. > :11:13.Yesterday the Commons debated it, at Labour's instigation,
:11:14. > :11:20.and there was clearly some disquiet among Tory backbenchers.
:11:21. > :11:22....an outstanding school in every sense of the word.
:11:23. > :11:25.They said to me they would not want to become an academy.
:11:26. > :11:29.And what I fundamentally struggled with is a very simple point,
:11:30. > :11:32.that I should go to them and say, despite the fact that your school
:11:33. > :11:36.is outstanding, that all of your staff are working
:11:37. > :11:39.brilliantly and delivering fantastic education,
:11:40. > :11:41.that we are now going to force you to become an academy.
:11:42. > :11:45....does not allow us to draw conclusions on whether
:11:46. > :11:49.academies in themselves are a positive force for change.
:11:50. > :11:52.If I were to sum up the concerns expressed to me by teachers locally
:11:53. > :11:55.it would be confusion, I think, as to why something
:11:56. > :11:59.that is so obviously not broken needs fixing.
:12:00. > :12:01.Well, the man who set in train many many reforms
:12:02. > :12:04.in the Education Reform Act 1988, was Kenneth Baker.
:12:05. > :12:06.Now Lord Baker, he created GCSEs, the national curriculum,
:12:07. > :12:08.City Technology Colleges, and earlier vintages of academies.
:12:09. > :12:29.Good evening to you. Do you support make all school academies? I support
:12:30. > :12:33.them because I started them with a city technology colleges in the '80s
:12:34. > :12:38.but it had to start in a gentle way, hay to final teams of people to run
:12:39. > :12:42.them. Head teachers who never had to employ people before, who never had
:12:43. > :12:47.a capital budget, they became managers. There is a huge difference
:12:48. > :12:51.between the things you started up which were carefully calculated
:12:52. > :12:56.schools designed and organised and in ways of doing things and taking
:12:57. > :13:01.every school and say you are an academy. Since I left, the history
:13:02. > :13:06.was by 2009 when the coalition started they there were about 200
:13:07. > :13:09.academy, there are 4700, a huge change, absolutely huge change,
:13:10. > :13:14.which has happened naturally, quite naturally and I think that is the
:13:15. > :13:20.best way to proceed frankly. Rather than forcing? Yes, if one wants to
:13:21. > :13:25.get to the stage of having them all out coax them along the road. There
:13:26. > :13:28.are authorities like Gloucester where all the schools are academies
:13:29. > :13:32.and I think Southwark but let them do it at their pace rather than
:13:33. > :13:37.anything else. So the Government are pushing it faster or too fast or too
:13:38. > :13:40.hard for your liking. Yes, I think eyou can, with a well managed
:13:41. > :13:43.academy you can get better results if it is really well managed, but
:13:44. > :13:56.not even is well managed. The idea is to put them into groups?
:13:57. > :14:04.Multi-Academy trusts? You've got that right, yes. These are ten or 15
:14:05. > :14:08.age? Yes, that sort of size. Several existing the moment but if they're
:14:09. > :14:11.going to do all the schools, they will need something like 2000
:14:12. > :14:20.multi-Academy trusts and there are not anything like that number. You
:14:21. > :14:25.are running some of these, UTCs, that is something like a trust?
:14:26. > :14:31.University technical colleges, yes. They are successful. They take
:14:32. > :14:36.youngsters from 14-18 and they have very practical courses. In the week
:14:37. > :14:40.they are making things. How easy is it to build a chain like the one
:14:41. > :14:48.you're running, a good chain, and can you do it in the course of safe
:14:49. > :14:53.three-year is? One of the best is Phil Paris, he has got 30 schools,
:14:54. > :15:03.and he started 30 years ago. It takes a long time. To have school
:15:04. > :15:06.managers, ex-heads and people who understand the arcane world of
:15:07. > :15:11.school finance. You introduced the national curriculum and academies
:15:12. > :15:18.don't have to do it, so it is just unravelling the national curriculum?
:15:19. > :15:22.If I were now dealing the cards, I would stop the national curriculum
:15:23. > :15:26.at 14 and at 14 have a series of technical colleges. This is what
:15:27. > :15:30.Austria does and it has the lowest level of youth unemployment. In a
:15:31. > :15:36.way, the colleges I'm starting fit into that category. They are 14-18.
:15:37. > :15:39.At 14, youngsters know where their interests lie will stop our
:15:40. > :15:44.youngsters make things with their hands. What is so interesting, and
:15:45. > :15:50.you have been banging on about this for decades, what is so interesting
:15:51. > :15:54.is that the whole thrust is to get book learning back into classrooms,
:15:55. > :15:58.isn't it? That's what conservative educators believe. I think that's a
:15:59. > :16:03.huge mistake. You need a knowledge economy but in itself that is not
:16:04. > :16:06.enough. You need practical application of knowledge. If there
:16:07. > :16:10.is a youngster at one of our colleges making the chassis of a car
:16:11. > :16:14.and rounded bonnets and so on, doing that he will understand the
:16:15. > :16:21.importance of trigonometry. Not just in book learning. I believe in
:16:22. > :16:27.learning as well as studying. You are an educational radical! You can
:16:28. > :16:33.call me that, but I think our heads in each UTC has a target, when the
:16:34. > :16:37.student is leaving at 16 or 18, no one should join the ranks of the
:16:38. > :16:41.unemployed and we are meeting that. Our youngsters become apprentices,
:16:42. > :16:44.they get jobs or they join universities. There are other things
:16:45. > :16:50.you disagree with the government on in this programme. By taking out the
:16:51. > :16:57.LEAs, which you're comfortable with, you don't have local accountability.
:16:58. > :17:02.Have they cracked that now because you've removed it? Some of the
:17:03. > :17:07.academies do have local accountability, they are very close
:17:08. > :17:13.to their communities. Our youngsters are close to our communities. We
:17:14. > :17:18.have one Coventry, they want another one in Solihull. This comes from the
:17:19. > :17:23.requirements of the local communities. Those ones often have
:17:24. > :17:29.parents as governors and they want to take that out. I'm fully in
:17:30. > :17:33.favour of keeping parent governors. It sounds like you are completely at
:17:34. > :17:37.odds with them on almost every aspect! No, the general thrust is
:17:38. > :17:42.right, but parent governors are useful people and they can be a
:17:43. > :17:46.contact for people in the school and we have parent governors at our
:17:47. > :17:50.university technical colleges. We also have business people. We have
:17:51. > :17:55.local business people coming in and teaching the youngsters on projects,
:17:56. > :17:59.and therefore our youngsters get used to teamwork, problem-solving.
:18:00. > :18:00.They becoming playable. Lovely to talk to you. -- they become
:18:01. > :18:05.employable. Some have called today the first day
:18:06. > :18:08.of the referendum campaign. It may not feel that way to you,
:18:09. > :18:12.or me or anyone, but it's all to do with the official designations
:18:13. > :18:14.yesterday of the groups who'll be To mark this special moment,
:18:15. > :18:20.we're launching our new series in which we go round the country
:18:21. > :18:23.and hear from voters about how We've been planning it for weeks,
:18:24. > :18:27.and yet we were still debating what to call this
:18:28. > :18:29.series this afternoon. EU and Yours, Knowing Me,
:18:30. > :18:33.Knowing EU and many other variants We did fix on a name,
:18:34. > :18:57.and to start us off Katie Razall has At new linen fish company, even at
:18:58. > :19:01.dawn some truths are university acknowledged. This is your business,
:19:02. > :19:12.it is fish, I'm guessing you of... Here they know that this is is
:19:13. > :19:17.paying more for fish. But Europeans eat more fish than we do. A place
:19:18. > :19:26.for everything and everything must be in its place. They would feel
:19:27. > :19:30.they would be better off out of the EU. The Spanish and the French can
:19:31. > :19:38.do whatever they want and we are not allowed to. It's time to leave. It
:19:39. > :19:44.could still be bigger if we could employ more people and it would be
:19:45. > :19:51.good for places like this. 44 years in the job. With the catch loaded in
:19:52. > :19:56.the van, Newsnight hitched a ride with Newlyn fish company's
:19:57. > :20:00.door-to-door salesman Tony. This is the luxury of the job, we get to see
:20:01. > :20:05.some beautiful views every single day. I will be voting to come out.
:20:06. > :20:10.The farming has gone downhill, the fishing has gone downhill, there is
:20:11. > :20:13.no more mining. But for some of Tony's customers, the referendum is
:20:14. > :20:20.less cut and dry. I would like some cod please. This loyal customer buys
:20:21. > :20:30.Tony's fish but not his arguments. I would vote to stay in. It's a worry
:20:31. > :20:35.knowing what it's going to do to the economy, for our children. I think
:20:36. > :20:40.it would be a period of incredible flux.
:20:41. > :20:47.I call on about 150 customers today. Most of them say can I have the
:20:48. > :20:52.usual please? Luckily I know what the usual is! In general I think we
:20:53. > :21:00.want to get out of it. So you will vote that way? Yes, Tony will be
:21:01. > :21:05.happy! There is real poverty in Cornwall. Because the county's GDP
:21:06. > :21:11.is well below the EU average, European money has poured in,
:21:12. > :21:19.funding airports, superfast broadband. Between 2000 and 2014,
:21:20. > :21:25.the EU invested almost ?900 million in Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly.
:21:26. > :21:28.Another 480 million or so is allocated up to 2020. But it doesn't
:21:29. > :21:35.always buy them appreciation. Little and large. I will have you know I'm
:21:36. > :21:40.the tallest in my family! I don't know if I never met anyone as tall
:21:41. > :21:48.as you. I have a nephew in Canada who is seven foot one. I'm 6-foot
:21:49. > :21:53.eight. My initial reaction was get out. Because I'm thinking nationally
:21:54. > :21:57.across the country, is it actually worked while staying in? I'm still
:21:58. > :22:04.not certain. It is this thing, there are too many questions. Where in the
:22:05. > :22:09.dark. It was time to bid farewell to Tony. Round the corner from his fish
:22:10. > :22:15.round but unlikely to be regulars, Penzance's estate, designated the
:22:16. > :22:19.most deprived area in Cornwall, poorer than parts of Poland and
:22:20. > :22:22.Lithuania. The charity working out of the community centre has had a
:22:23. > :22:30.little money from the EU's social fund. This is our signature Sri
:22:31. > :22:36.Lankan hotpot! Every Thursday they offer a free lunch to those in need.
:22:37. > :22:42.Welcome, would you like some lunch? They invited me to join them. Since
:22:43. > :22:45.Brian Collett left the Navy, life has been tough. Where are you living
:22:46. > :22:52.at the moment, have you got somewhere to live? No. Well, I've
:22:53. > :22:57.got a tent. A two-man tent. So you're sleeping in a tent somewhere
:22:58. > :23:02.around Penzance? Yes. In a way I suppose a tent is better than a
:23:03. > :23:06.doorway, yeah. Living around here especially is just a dead end and as
:23:07. > :23:11.you said, they pumped a lot of money into Cornwall and I've not even
:23:12. > :23:15.heard of any money being put into Cornwall. I do know where the money
:23:16. > :23:21.from the EU has gone but it has certainly not come here. I don't
:23:22. > :23:24.want to leave the EU. I think this country would be screwed if we left
:23:25. > :23:30.the EU. We've got no industry any more. We seem to be doing better
:23:31. > :23:37.being in the EU than without it. I know loads of farmers here who would
:23:38. > :23:40.be screwed without their EU funding. Does anyone want to leave the EU? No
:23:41. > :23:44.one! LAUGHTER
:23:45. > :23:50.Are you able to vote? Do you think you will? Without a fixed address,
:23:51. > :23:57.you don't get anything coming through the post. If I was able to
:23:58. > :24:03.vote, I would vote to stay in because it's a really romantic idea.
:24:04. > :24:09.But you know where your bread is buttered. Remain as will take
:24:10. > :24:14.comfort from those sentiments. Despite Cornwall receiving more
:24:15. > :24:18.money for each of its inhabitants than anywhere else in England, there
:24:19. > :24:25.has been a lot of talk that it is veering Eurosceptic head of the
:24:26. > :24:27.referendum. Carly's Organics is one of 25,000 British businesses to have
:24:28. > :24:40.got EU help. This pan-European enterprise
:24:41. > :24:43.received ?300,000 from the EU's regional development fund to build a
:24:44. > :24:48.new factory and help boost the local economy. It has enabled the business
:24:49. > :24:52.to grow in terms of sales, which in turn has meant that we can employ
:24:53. > :24:57.more people. We now employ nine, where we had three before, in Truro.
:24:58. > :25:03.It's a significant upturn on the number of hours's work, which has
:25:04. > :25:06.got to be a good thing for COBOL. Newsnight's arrival coincided with
:25:07. > :25:12.the processing of some very un-European Brazil nuts all the way
:25:13. > :25:17.from Bolivia. -- for Cornwall. Even here in a place that has benefited
:25:18. > :25:25.from European support, attitudes as well as ingredients are mixed. I
:25:26. > :25:31.think it's rather churlish to have this great funding and then say
:25:32. > :25:37.thank you very much, we opt out. A bit ungrateful? Well, it would feel
:25:38. > :25:45.like that. It's more than that, my inclination, it may or may not be a
:25:46. > :25:49.good thing, but so much of our security depends on joining
:25:50. > :25:54.together. The funding has obviously been incredibly beneficial for us as
:25:55. > :26:04.a company. We have been able to take the business to where it is. It
:26:05. > :26:12.doesn't necessarily... I'm still undecided on that. My heart of
:26:13. > :26:17.hearts, leaving would be a good option as far as being nostalgic and
:26:18. > :26:20.thinking about Britain being great and thinking about the great
:26:21. > :26:25.industries we want to have in our country. And bringing independence
:26:26. > :26:28.to the country. I don't know, I really don't know. I think that the
:26:29. > :26:33.fact that this factory has been lucky enough to be given European
:26:34. > :26:38.funding is great. We've employed more people, and hopefully we are
:26:39. > :26:46.driving more money through Cornwall and then up through the country...
:26:47. > :26:52.But that doesn't make you think you're definitely going to vote to
:26:53. > :26:56.stay in? No, not at all. Perhaps the last word should be in Cornish. As
:26:57. > :27:05.Cornish speakers gathered for a weekend of immersion in a language
:27:06. > :27:12.officially recognised as a minority tongue. I wondered if you knew if
:27:13. > :27:15.there was a word in Cornish for Brexit?
:27:16. > :27:24.LAUGHTER What about remain?
:27:25. > :27:33.They sang us out, Celts first and Europhiles in the main, many feel a
:27:34. > :27:39.Brexit would have an adverse impact on the land they love. But some of
:27:40. > :27:40.their -- many of their Cornish neighbours may not be in tune with
:27:41. > :27:44.that sentiment. A female political correspondent
:27:45. > :27:46.was referred to as "totty" What he apparently said
:27:47. > :27:50.to the journalist, "I want She is Isabel Hardman,
:27:51. > :27:55.who is a frequent contributor to this programme, and her response
:27:56. > :27:57.was to complain But not everyone thinks
:27:58. > :28:01.the act was crime enough Another female journalist,
:28:02. > :28:06.Isabel Oakeshott, wrote in the Mail, "There is a case to be argued
:28:07. > :28:09.that she should have been pleased. After all, he expressed
:28:10. > :28:12.the inclination to talk to her, over and above whoever
:28:13. > :28:25.else was there". It raises the question about the
:28:26. > :28:26.frictions of social change are crossed generations.
:28:27. > :28:29.Isabel Oakeshott is with me now, as is the columnist
:28:30. > :28:40.Did you really mean it when owe say possibly she should have been
:28:41. > :28:44.pleased at being called totty? I was saying as a political reporter you
:28:45. > :28:48.have to have a pretty thick skin. Politics is a rough old game and
:28:49. > :28:53.politics and journalism they are both rough old games an our bids is
:28:54. > :28:58.getting story, that is always the focus of any intr action I am having
:28:59. > :29:03.at work. -- interaction. Personally I am prepared to put up with quite a
:29:04. > :29:07.lot in the pursuit of the story and being called totty doesn't register
:29:08. > :29:13.for me on the Richter Scale of offensive. What have you had to put
:29:14. > :29:19.up with? All sorts over the year, I gave an example in the piece I wrote
:29:20. > :29:23.for the Mail today of a senior MP, a Knight of the Realm. I named him,
:29:24. > :29:27.Sir Alan Duncan happens to be gay who pinched my bottom the other day.
:29:28. > :29:33.I was surprised by I didn't take offence at it. I thought this was
:29:34. > :29:37.just, you know, one of those things. Jenni, first of all should she have
:29:38. > :29:43.taken offence at Alan Duncan pinching her bottom? That is its
:29:44. > :29:49.ball's choice. The more important -- Isobel's choice. The term used to
:29:50. > :29:53.Isabel Hardman demeaned her, didn't take her seriously, she is an
:29:54. > :29:58.outstanding political journalist, she was political journalist of the
:29:59. > :30:02.year, she is a credible person, and what she was taking offence at was
:30:03. > :30:06.that somebody deciding to treat her in a demeaning fashion, so treating
:30:07. > :30:11.her less seriously than men round her, if you just ignore this, as the
:30:12. > :30:14.other Isobel advocates then nothing change, you would never have had a
:30:15. > :30:18.civil rights movement in America if you said you know black women
:30:19. > :30:22.shouldn't mind being sent to the back of the bus, you wouldn't have
:30:23. > :30:27.had gay right's movement if gays hadn't objected to being called
:30:28. > :30:32.faggots. You only have to put into that sentence I want to talk to the
:30:33. > :30:38.N word to see that kind of language says you are less a person and it is
:30:39. > :30:45.right that we should start demanding in twaun 15 that language isn't
:30:46. > :30:48.accepting. Or 2016 even. Yes. I disagree about the comparisons you
:30:49. > :30:53.make, the heart of the matter is this, think, when the gentleman
:30:54. > :30:58.concerned used the word totty he meant it, however clumsily, he meant
:30:59. > :31:04.it as a compliment, the other words you use were clearly der rowing tri.
:31:05. > :31:09.It is also der rowing tri, it says I am not treating you as a political
:31:10. > :31:12.journalist, I am talking to you in sexual term, unless you acts that
:31:13. > :31:17.women do not get taken seriously for we know that because we had a
:31:18. > :31:22.century behind us of women being treated like that, going through the
:31:23. > :31:26.'50s and nothing changed until women started saying don't treat us that
:31:27. > :31:30.way. To be clear, you made various suggestions of how you might behave
:31:31. > :31:35.in that way and one was she could have written a note to him. Yes Or
:31:36. > :31:39.could have said something to him personally. Am I assuming that
:31:40. > :31:44.wouldn't work for you? She has to make an issue and a public issue,
:31:45. > :31:47.because otherwise it doesn't tell everybody else. That is the point.
:31:48. > :31:51.The point is there is still an incredible amount of sexism going
:31:52. > :31:55.on. I know people, women working in offices now who are subjected to
:31:56. > :32:00.something much worse, but they are unable to talk about because they
:32:01. > :32:04.are powerless. If they alienate the men working with them they know that
:32:05. > :32:07.will be punished. Isobel was in the position of being strong enough and
:32:08. > :32:11.in a strong enough position to be able to call this out. It doesn't
:32:12. > :32:15.rebound on her personally and has the advantage that it is public
:32:16. > :32:19.issue, other men in the Commons won't say it to her, and won't say
:32:20. > :32:23.it to other journalist, and everybody is thinking about this
:32:24. > :32:27.issue now. A private note would have accomplished nothing in the matter
:32:28. > :32:31.of social change. As far as I am concerned, I am there to report a
:32:32. > :32:37.stories, I am a political commentator, I don't work for the
:32:38. > :32:42.Fawcett Society, I am not a campaigner. Women are not treated
:32:43. > :32:47.equally to men, is that not a concern to you. I have suffered sex
:32:48. > :32:52.criminal on many level, much of it trivial. You roll with the punch,
:32:53. > :32:57.the problem is, in no way do icon done sex enrichment. You are with
:32:58. > :33:00.this. If you start making an enormous fuss about very small
:33:01. > :33:09.things, then you would never have time to do your job, you would be be
:33:10. > :33:13.going off whiting to the whips. It wasn't an enormous fuss, she didn't
:33:14. > :33:18.name the MP, she said this has happened I think it is unacceptable
:33:19. > :33:23.and she reported this person to the whips. It couldn't have been handled
:33:24. > :33:27.better. I have extreme respect for Isabel Hardman, she is a colleague,
:33:28. > :33:33.she knew I was going to write this, we discussed it. But the inevitable
:33:34. > :33:37.consequence she well knew about tweeting about it was there was
:33:38. > :33:42.going to be a fire storm. Can I add something important. One very brief
:33:43. > :33:46.point. I watched a speech by Martin Luther King who explained why it was
:33:47. > :33:52.important that words like neck row should no longer be used he said you
:33:53. > :33:57.start with behavioural change. Then that changes attitudes, and in the
:33:58. > :34:02.end it changes men's minds, that kind of sexism is what means that
:34:03. > :34:05.women don't get taken seriously. I say choose your battles. We leave it
:34:06. > :34:08.there. She chose it well. Fans of the film director
:34:09. > :34:10.Peter Greenaway will not be disappointed by his new movie,
:34:11. > :34:13.which opens in art house It's every bit as visually lush
:34:14. > :34:16.as Greenaway's other films - such as The Cook, the Thief,
:34:17. > :34:19.His wife and Her Lover. And in the Greenaway
:34:20. > :34:21.style, very physical. By which I mean there are explicit
:34:22. > :34:23.depictions of nakedness, As well as anal sex of a kind
:34:24. > :34:27.you don't normally see on screen, unless you venture into the more
:34:28. > :34:30.obscure parts of Tumblr. The film is about the giant
:34:31. > :34:32.of Soviet film-making, Sergei Eisenstein, a ten day visit
:34:33. > :34:35.he made to the Mexican Sergei Eisenstein was
:34:36. > :34:52.one of the creators The 1925 silent epic
:34:53. > :34:56.Battleship Potemkin always cited as one of the most important
:34:57. > :35:05.movies ever made. This scene on the Odessa steps one
:35:06. > :35:08.of the most famous in film. Eisenstein himself had a turbulent
:35:09. > :35:10.career, sometimes in - His reputation outside Russia
:35:11. > :35:23.took him to Hollywood, He did team up with the left-leaning
:35:24. > :35:27.writer Upton Sinclair, who helped finance some of his work,
:35:28. > :35:32.including a trip to Mexico, in which he burned through cash,
:35:33. > :35:34.produced miles of film, and yet which didn't result
:35:35. > :35:36.in a marketable product. Peter Greenaway's film focusses
:35:37. > :35:39.on ten days in Mexico and a gay relationship between Eisenstein
:35:40. > :36:00.and his Mexican minder. Well, Peter Greenaway is with us,
:36:01. > :36:06.good evening. So where does Eisenstein rank in your Pantheon of
:36:07. > :36:11.great, of the film world? Well, we haven't had a lot of cinema, it has
:36:12. > :36:16.only been going 120 years so maybe we shouldn't be churlish but I think
:36:17. > :36:19.probably, you know, in terms of real visionary film-makers there have
:36:20. > :36:25.been very few. You can count them on the fingers of two hands, I think. I
:36:26. > :36:31.would rate Eisenstein right at the top of that list. It helped of
:36:32. > :36:36.course, that he is working in the 1920s and people were saying what is
:36:37. > :36:41.cinema? They are finding out the vocabulary, he was not particularly
:36:42. > :36:44.surprise, surprise really so I suppose politically committed. He is
:36:45. > :36:48.nicely ironic about everything that is happening. He has had some
:36:49. > :36:53.experience in the theatre, and he has made one, I think, masterpiece
:36:54. > :36:59.called Strike, a piece of propaganda. That was the first one?
:37:00. > :37:02.Yes. And he made it when he was 26, and it is extraordinary, that such
:37:03. > :37:09.an amazing film, which I would say was one of the really first, you
:37:10. > :37:17.know successful cinematic products it is amazing... How annoying! You
:37:18. > :37:22.have taken this ten day period, ten days in the making of and he has
:37:23. > :37:26.this favour with his minder, how real is that story? Is that loosely
:37:27. > :37:32.based on true facts or is this inspired by some events that you
:37:33. > :37:36.possibly occurred? You sound as though you are doubting me already.
:37:37. > :37:43.I can show you the archivele material. He had this devoted
:37:44. > :37:49.secretary back in Moscow, and she was certainly in love with him, but
:37:50. > :37:53.he did not return that affection but they had an intimate correspondence.
:37:54. > :38:00.It is all there in an archive, in Moscow, I can produce the archive
:38:01. > :38:05.and I can say that it is not a Peter Greenaway fibbingion. The Russians
:38:06. > :38:09.-- fiction. The Russians don't like it, he is a Russian hero, they don't
:38:10. > :38:14.like the fact you have made him gay. Well, there is a feeling, I sup
:38:15. > :38:19.poets, I wouldn't say I have great friend in Russia but lots of
:38:20. > :38:24.acquaintances and the average Russian are not phased by this
:38:25. > :38:29.homophobia thing, I think, we regard it as a piece of political
:38:30. > :38:35.gesturing, to demonise the west. -- fazed. I think also, maybe there are
:38:36. > :38:41.other ways I have offended, after all, I haven't put a film, I haven't
:38:42. > :38:44.put the film together about Eisenstein in Russia but outside
:38:45. > :38:47.Russia. We haven't, one would imagine it would be sensible and
:38:48. > :38:52.that is what we tried for, to get a Russian actor to play it. So I
:38:53. > :38:56.didn't do too well there. On these three counts for a time I was
:38:57. > :39:00.unpopular. Let us talk about film. You have said some interesting
:39:01. > :39:05.things about film. You think stories are not that important. It is all
:39:06. > :39:10.about the visual imagery, you are a painter by trade. By training, from
:39:11. > :39:17.a very early age, about 13 or 14, I wished to have had a career as a
:39:18. > :39:24.paint e still hoping for it! But you know, text has so many ways in which
:39:25. > :39:29.to purvey its meaning, 8,000 years of lyric poetry, 350 years of the
:39:30. > :39:35.novel. The theatre hands its meaning down in text and not in image, so
:39:36. > :39:39.let us really sigh if we can create a cinema that is really all powerful
:39:40. > :39:43.and depend very largely on image, not on text, because you know,
:39:44. > :39:49.cinema is meant to be about picture but we have a text based medium.
:39:50. > :39:55.Every film you have seen started its life as text I can be certain. You
:39:56. > :39:58.can say we haven't seen cinema, we have seen 120 years illustrated
:39:59. > :40:02.literature. ? Before we let you go, the big issue here, you live in
:40:03. > :40:06.Amsterdam, the big issue is our relationship with Europe. I don't
:40:07. > :40:11.know if you get a vote, have you been in Amsterdam...? I still have a
:40:12. > :40:16.vote, I have to say I don't make great use of, here in Great Britain.
:40:17. > :40:21.But file, you know I feel I have, a live in Amsterdam. I feel like a
:40:22. > :40:25.good European? Is that a cliche. I am happy with that. I think it
:40:26. > :40:30.regret ful there are plans for Great Britain to leave the European
:40:31. > :40:35.community. And cultural link sthrrks a film industry thing that would
:40:36. > :40:39.say, you know, like the farmers and fishermen have their take? There is
:40:40. > :40:44.a Dutch film industry, and in its own circumstances it is, you know it
:40:45. > :40:48.is followed and it is enthusiastic, I don't think we can say that
:40:49. > :40:53.Holland is a film-making industry country, but they do have, I mean
:40:54. > :40:59.think of the painter, you know... The visual imagery again. It is, you
:41:00. > :41:06.know, if you are fascinated by visual literacy, they can give it
:41:07. > :41:08.broigle and Vermeer and Van Gogh, the list is endless. And three
:41:09. > :41:14.cheers for them. Peter Greenaway. Thank you.
:41:15. > :41:16.That's just about it for tonight where, in Porthcawl,
:41:17. > :41:18.a pair of benches sit besides one of the most beautiful
:41:19. > :41:22.But instead of facing the glorious sea, Bridgend Council officials
:41:23. > :41:25.In defence of this rather odd placement, tourism chiefs christened
:41:26. > :41:27.the benches as Britian's first dedicated "selfie benches".
:41:28. > :41:30.So we asked local residents to take a seat and send
:41:31. > :42:26.MUSIC: She's Built The Wrong Way Round" by Hugh Cornwall.
:42:27. > :42:33.Bo Thursday brought us a day of sunshine and scattered showers and
:42:34. > :42:37.we will see further heavy downpours at times in the south. The odd
:42:38. > :42:41.rumble of thunder, further knot o for Scotland and Northern Ireland a
:42:42. > :42:45.wetter front makes its way south, by the afternoon a return to sunshine
:42:46. > :42:46.but chilly conditions in Northern Ireland. Some