:00:10. > :00:12.We are fighting to be a hostage, locked in the boot
:00:13. > :00:15.of a car, driven by others to a place and at a place
:00:16. > :00:19.That's his take if we stay in, but what does Michael Gove think
:00:20. > :00:28.Was it real life or just Project Fantasy?
:00:29. > :00:29.The former boss of the World Trade Organisation
:00:30. > :00:33.The notion that you exit the EU trade wise at no
:00:34. > :00:41.We will put that to Brexit supporter and former
:00:42. > :00:48.Lily Allen had spent seven years been stalked by a man who had
:00:49. > :00:53.approached her on-line when she woke to find him standing
:00:54. > :00:57.I could see from the minute that he came into my
:00:58. > :00:59.bedroom that he was ill and that he needed help.
:01:00. > :01:02.I wanted to help him, I felt immediately like something
:01:03. > :01:19.And I feel like he has been let down. I have been let down. And how
:01:20. > :01:23.many other people are being let down? We will discuss why had --
:01:24. > :01:29.wider has been a rise in stalking and whether police are doing enough.
:01:30. > :01:34.You make fun of us Germans liking David Hasselhoff and we mainly like
:01:35. > :01:38.two things. One is David Hasselhoff. And the German comedian facing
:01:39. > :01:41.criminal proceedings in Germany for a poem criticising the Turkish
:01:42. > :01:45.President. We will discuss. This wasn't a speech
:01:46. > :01:50.about a British Exit, this was - in Michael Gove's own words -
:01:51. > :01:53.a speech about the democratic Today, the Justice Secretary
:01:54. > :02:00.answered his critics on the Remain side who defied him to find a vision
:02:01. > :02:03.for what this country would look Michael Gove argued that Britain
:02:04. > :02:07.would remain in the free trade zone - like Bosnia,
:02:08. > :02:09.like Serbia, like Albania - It would not, he insisted,
:02:10. > :02:15.be governed by its rules And crucially, he argued,
:02:16. > :02:26.it would save the UK billions in the form of ever-rising
:02:27. > :02:28.costs of EU membership. We'll talk to the former head
:02:29. > :02:43.of the World Trade Today, Michael Gove revealed
:02:44. > :02:48.elements of his case for Brexit and he threw scorn on the campaign for
:02:49. > :02:52.remain macro. If you vote to stay, we are not settling for the status
:02:53. > :02:56.quo, we voting to be a hostage locked in the boot of a car, driven
:02:57. > :03:02.by others to an and at a place that we have no control over. And in
:03:03. > :03:10.contrast, if we vote to leave, we take back the control. One thing to
:03:11. > :03:13.-- the Justice Secretary set out was how post-Brexit would relate to the
:03:14. > :03:18.European Union. For example, what would his plan mean for one of the
:03:19. > :03:21.most delicious industries, cheese? Because we are EU members who follow
:03:22. > :03:26.the rules and regulations and we do not quit much subsidy to farmers,
:03:27. > :03:31.our farmers can sell for example that she is across the EU without
:03:32. > :03:35.facing tariffs on nontariff barriers. But what would happen if
:03:36. > :03:40.we left? Imagine you were a farmer trying to sell this stilton. If we
:03:41. > :03:42.have a deal like Switzerland, not much would change, we would follow
:03:43. > :03:47.roughly the same rules and regulations and you would be able to
:03:48. > :03:51.sell your cheese across Europe without facing tariffs. If we went
:03:52. > :03:56.to the other extreme and we got rid of all the rules and regulations and
:03:57. > :03:59.we increased the subsidies, we might face a different regime. Farmers
:04:00. > :04:05.might have to fill in forms showing how healthy their cattle were, they
:04:06. > :04:08.might have to apply to import licences for a block of cheese
:04:09. > :04:13.roughly the size, they would face tariffs between 25 and 50p depending
:04:14. > :04:19.on how much cheese other people had already sold the E -- to the EU. The
:04:20. > :04:23.plans are neither of those extremes but a bespoke deal. He says we can
:04:24. > :04:28.argue to get rid of the red tape and get good EU market access. There is
:04:29. > :04:32.a free trade Zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European
:04:33. > :04:37.nations have access to regardless of whether they are in or out of Europe
:04:38. > :04:41.or EU. After voting to leave, we will remain in the zone, the
:04:42. > :04:45.suggestion that Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and the Ukraine would remain
:04:46. > :04:51.part of this free trade area and Britain would be on the outside with
:04:52. > :04:54.just Belarus is as credible as Jean-Claude Juncker joining the
:04:55. > :04:58.Ukip. Remain campaign is to use what they have called the Albanian market
:04:59. > :05:04.and they argue not of those countries have the deal Mr Gove
:05:05. > :05:08.wants. It is absurd to suggest our EU partners if we were to leave
:05:09. > :05:12.would give us the deal they do not have themselves. So they would give
:05:13. > :05:17.free access to the single market which they currently pay into the B
:05:18. > :05:23.members of, with us not having paid a fee. Why would they do do a deal
:05:24. > :05:27.for others which they as members of the European Union have not done for
:05:28. > :05:32.themselves? If we became a more deregulated state, we would probably
:05:33. > :05:36.face trade barriers compared to now, tariffs on nontariff barriers. We
:05:37. > :05:41.should not do because of course those European firms, they sell 68
:05:42. > :05:46.billion bounce more than we sell to them so that is a mutual interest in
:05:47. > :05:51.staying strong trade partners and stronger interests for those French,
:05:52. > :05:55.German, Italian exporters not to see export barriers going up so the
:05:56. > :05:58.scaremongering from the Remain campaign does not stand up to
:05:59. > :06:03.serious scrutiny. One of the questioned by Mr Gove was what sort
:06:04. > :06:07.of Britain he would like to have after Brexit and the answer was a
:06:08. > :06:11.free trading and buccaneering nation. He said they would still
:06:12. > :06:16.like to subsidise farmers and cut tariffs and subsidies and red tape.
:06:17. > :06:20.This expert is from a think tank close to the Prime Minister's
:06:21. > :06:25.thinking. There were mixed messages in terms of Mr Gove's speech, he
:06:26. > :06:28.talked about free trade agreements with emerging Marcus and still
:06:29. > :06:33.protecting farmers. It is not clear how open they will be but if they do
:06:34. > :06:37.not take on the farming lobby, you have to ask if they will take on the
:06:38. > :06:41.car industry and social employment law and the trade unions and how
:06:42. > :06:46.much they willing to open up and deregulate. Would you become to ball
:06:47. > :06:54.in a world where we dropped tariffs. And for cars as part of our rear
:06:55. > :07:02.balancing to a new model of economy? -- we balancing. You have to look at
:07:03. > :07:06.the overall picture but if we stay straight in -- stay trading partners
:07:07. > :07:09.with the EU, freed up to trade more energetically with Asia, it is
:07:10. > :07:14.better for sustainable jobs of the future. Today's speech was
:07:15. > :07:18.contentious, setting out a plan for a Liberal tariff which trading
:07:19. > :07:23.state, but the heat for now is around Mr Gove's belief we can cut
:07:24. > :07:27.red tape and hold EU market access and cut deals with the rest of the
:07:28. > :07:29.world. A disputed claim, to say the least.
:07:30. > :07:32.So how would this new trade deal for the UK be put into practice?
:07:33. > :07:34.I asked Pascal Lamy, former head of the World Trade
:07:35. > :07:37.Organization, who's spent hours on these kind of negotiations,
:07:38. > :07:43.If you are part of the European Union, you belong
:07:44. > :07:46.to the European single market, which means that you have
:07:47. > :07:49.free access to the whole of the 500 million consumers,
:07:50. > :07:51.plus countries outside Europe, for which the European Union has
:07:52. > :07:54.negotiated privileged access, for the price that they're getting,
:07:55. > :08:11.So if you're in, that's the privileges you have.
:08:12. > :08:16.If you're out, you lose these privileges.
:08:17. > :08:19.You lose your preferred access to the European market,
:08:20. > :08:22.which is roughly 50% of UK trade, and you lose the privileged
:08:23. > :08:25.access to Canada, Mexico and a series of other countries,
:08:26. > :08:33.which is probably 15% more of UK trade.
:08:34. > :08:37.So you lose the privileged access you have, the free trade you have,
:08:38. > :08:44.You export less, you produce less, you have less trade,
:08:45. > :08:53.But that's the history, if you like.
:08:54. > :09:00.Just because a deal is unprecedented doesn't mean it's not possible.
:09:01. > :09:02.The UK could still trade with the European states free
:09:03. > :09:05.of tariff and nontariff barriers, but without committing to those full
:09:06. > :09:11.That's a world of trade, if I may, which is paradise,
:09:12. > :09:23.But we all know that in the world of trade -
:09:24. > :09:25.yesterday, today, tomorrow - you don't get free access, free.
:09:26. > :09:29.You get free access for a price, which is - I give you access
:09:30. > :09:36.to my market, you give me access to your market.
:09:37. > :09:39.I'm not going to give you access to my market if you don't give me
:09:40. > :09:42.This is something that will never work, you know,
:09:43. > :09:52.Trade negotiations are tough, which, by the way, is one of the reasons
:09:53. > :10:02.Now, what would the UK have to give to the 27 other syndicates
:10:03. > :10:07.of Brexit, or to Mexico, Canada, Japan and India?
:10:08. > :10:10.The UK would give some access, assuming it reduces its existing
:10:11. > :10:18.market access, which amounts to a 50/60 million consumers market.
:10:19. > :10:20.You don't get for a 50 million consumer market
:10:21. > :10:27.So you are saying, bluntly, no free-trade without
:10:28. > :10:34.Does that also mean that we would have to be covered
:10:35. > :10:45.We have a European economic space with countries like Norway,
:10:46. > :11:03.And that's something that you cannot hide to the British public,
:11:04. > :11:06.the notion that you can exit and keep the benefits that you have
:11:07. > :11:17.And I'm limiting my comments to trade, which is the part I know.
:11:18. > :11:22.Would you go so far as the French Economy Minister,
:11:23. > :11:25.Emmanuel Macron, did at the weekend, to say Britain would be completely
:11:26. > :11:31.killed in trade talks if the country chose to leave?
:11:32. > :11:34.I think any serious people, knowing what's happening in trade
:11:35. > :11:36.on this planet today, knows that the UK has a formidable
:11:37. > :11:39.asset for the moment which has benefited a lot of economies
:11:40. > :11:51.and that losing this asset would have a price.
:11:52. > :11:53.Look, the notion that you exit the EU trade-wise at no
:11:54. > :12:15.David Owen, the former Foreign Secretary and Brexit and Payne joins
:12:16. > :12:21.me now. Does the Gove vision where we are part of some large Free Trade
:12:22. > :12:26.Zone but not of the single market tally with your own vision for
:12:27. > :12:30.Brexit? Yes, I buy into it completely. There is a choice for
:12:31. > :12:35.this country now and it is very difficult and there are arguments on
:12:36. > :12:38.both sides but the fundamental issue is, where is the biggest risk? I
:12:39. > :12:43.think the biggest risk is a collapse in the Eurozone. People say we are
:12:44. > :12:49.not in the Euro and people who want to go into the Euro those people but
:12:50. > :12:54.it will not help. Look what happened to Greece. Rees could default. We
:12:55. > :12:59.could have problems in Italy. We could have problems in Spain. If you
:13:00. > :13:05.see six or seven countries running into a serious crisis, the Eurozone
:13:06. > :13:09.is in crisis and it has been there for six years, the Americans spend
:13:10. > :13:15.all their time trying to get them to change. For me, the question is, can
:13:16. > :13:21.you get out of the EU before you get a Eurozone collapse? That Gove
:13:22. > :13:25.vision specifically today is not just optimistic, it is part of the
:13:26. > :13:28.Free Trade Zone but not of the single market, and we just heard
:13:29. > :13:33.from the World Trade Organisation chief negotiator who has been doing
:13:34. > :13:37.the years of this kind of thing who said it is pie in the sky and it is
:13:38. > :13:46.a lie. Frankly, he doesn't believe it. Well, the issue is, what is this
:13:47. > :13:51.referendum about? We in the campaign trying to persuade people to have
:13:52. > :13:54.the courage to leave, we are not going to be doing the negotiations,
:13:55. > :13:58.that is going to be the Conservative government for the next four years.
:13:59. > :14:03.We have transitional arrangements in the treaty which anticipates
:14:04. > :14:06.somebody might be able to leave. You can't say it is down to the
:14:07. > :14:09.Conservative government to make it work when we are trying to get
:14:10. > :14:16.people to understand. They gave us the referendum. You make it sound
:14:17. > :14:21.like you want it to fail. No, I do not believe it will fail. I am
:14:22. > :14:24.saying that many options which the government faces. I think it was
:14:25. > :14:30.right for Michael Gove to choose the one that nobody can stop us using.
:14:31. > :14:36.We can only build on, which is a WTO.
:14:37. > :14:42.When you say no one can stop us using that, you just heard that if
:14:43. > :14:48.you want free trade, you have to accept the world. Michael Gove says
:14:49. > :14:52.in his version that does not happen. There are various tariffs and some
:14:53. > :14:58.of them are not very helpful to us, or to our partners in the EU, such
:14:59. > :15:03.as the rather high tax on cars. And you negotiate that. We are helped by
:15:04. > :15:08.a position... With whom would you negotiate that? With Germany itself?
:15:09. > :15:13.Up with the whole of the EU? Germany sells arts a lot of cars and we are
:15:14. > :15:17.not going to be able to suddenly switch off, so what would they want?
:15:18. > :15:23.They are looking to expand exports, they are not going to cut us off.
:15:24. > :15:29.This depends on a benevolent view of Germany towards the UK. I have
:15:30. > :15:33.negotiated trade arrangements in the old days of the Soviet Union. We
:15:34. > :15:36.make deals with people who can be very hostile to you because it is
:15:37. > :15:42.done on the basis of mutual interest. A trade deal is a deal,
:15:43. > :15:46.and the basic thing is have you got something to sell, you got something
:15:47. > :15:54.to buy? It is a balance of that. The balance is in our favour. The
:15:55. > :15:59.balance comes down to who needs what most. Trade with Europe represents
:16:00. > :16:07.12% of our GDP but EU trade with us is just 3% of players. So
:16:08. > :16:10.collectively, we need the EU more than they individually need us. You
:16:11. > :16:14.are turning the statistics round of the wrong way. There are two
:16:15. > :16:21.statistics you have given. The powerful one is, in which of the big
:16:22. > :16:27.countries selling large amounts to the UK will be very affected by our
:16:28. > :16:31.sleeping. They are Germany and France and other countries like the
:16:32. > :16:37.Netherlands. Let's be clear. The other thing... Let's go back to
:16:38. > :16:48.this. Read me say one more fact. Since 2002, we have shifted away 10%
:16:49. > :16:53.of our trade from the EU. The EU is stagnating and there is a currency
:16:54. > :16:58.crisis. Let's go back to the idea of trade. In Mr Gove's vision, the idea
:16:59. > :17:02.that France and Germany, probably pretty upset with a Brexit, would
:17:03. > :17:06.suddenly turn around and say, it is fine and you can have what you want,
:17:07. > :17:12.and we not worried. They will not say that. They are going to
:17:13. > :17:15.negotiate what they can give and we can give. Andy Willmott worry about
:17:16. > :17:20.what message that sends out for any other country thinking they could
:17:21. > :17:25.leave, too, and break up the EU? You heard Michael Gove's comment. This
:17:26. > :17:32.is about the democratisation of the comment two continent, that is his
:17:33. > :17:37.goal. We are all living in a European space, the members of many
:17:38. > :17:42.organisations, including Nato. One of the advantages of going out of
:17:43. > :17:46.the EU is that we can pay more attention to that. And we will need
:17:47. > :17:52.to, given American attitudes. The issue is, do you want to stay in the
:17:53. > :17:57.ewe or not? If that decision is taken, it comes to the government to
:17:58. > :18:03.look at these different options. They are trying to put us in a box.
:18:04. > :18:07.If you say you were looking at the UDA, they say that means you are
:18:08. > :18:10.accepting the freedom of movement of labour and you are accepting that
:18:11. > :18:16.you have no vote on arrangements and you are accepting a solution like
:18:17. > :18:20.Norway. The fact of the matter is that under the circumstances where
:18:21. > :18:24.we are negotiating, they may be more open-minded. So there is another
:18:25. > :18:30.question. When you see an end of freedom of movement is central to
:18:31. > :18:34.this, a lot of people look at you and say that you are a liberal, and
:18:35. > :18:39.perhaps you come at this from a different perspective. I do, no
:18:40. > :18:46.doubt. I have spent the last four years trying to get the European
:18:47. > :18:54.Union to reform, to make it possible for the EEA to be the basis of a new
:18:55. > :18:56.Europe. And logically, they refuse. Cameron's negotiation, that showed
:18:57. > :19:01.that they could not change it. Now we have a choice. If we should come
:19:02. > :19:05.out, as I believe we should, we go into a period, probably, we should
:19:06. > :19:11.not rush into it but we start to take steps to bring back the
:19:12. > :19:15.communities legislation which we passed in 1972. We will consider our
:19:16. > :19:18.place and then we will look at all the options. Look at what is
:19:19. > :19:22.happening in America, what will happen to the north Atlantic free
:19:23. > :19:27.trade area, if we have a President Trump. This world is much more
:19:28. > :19:30.uncertain. On that note, we leave it there. Thank you for coming in.
:19:31. > :19:32.In an exclusive television interview, the singer Lily Allen has
:19:33. > :19:39.told Newsnight she feels "victim shamed" by The Metropolitan Police.
:19:40. > :19:42.On Sunday, she told The Observer that she felt let down and dismissed
:19:43. > :19:44.as a nuisance by police over her repeated reports
:19:45. > :19:52.Alex Gray has a history of psychiatric
:19:53. > :19:54.problems and was known to the police, was finally convicted
:19:55. > :19:57.this month, seven years after he first threatened her.
:19:58. > :20:00.It was only when he broke into her house and confronted
:20:01. > :20:02.her in her bedroom, and then stole her bag,
:20:03. > :20:05.that the police caught him and charged him burglary and harassment.
:20:06. > :20:07.That charges didn't, to her dismay, include stalking.
:20:08. > :20:11.In response to her comments, a senior officer at the Met
:20:12. > :20:14.emailed her, warning that her telling of the story could deter
:20:15. > :20:18.Lily Allen spoke to Kirsty earlier today about her support
:20:19. > :20:19.for a National Register of Serial Stalkers.
:20:20. > :20:21.But first, she talked about the eight-year ordeal,
:20:22. > :20:45.The interview contains strong language.
:20:46. > :20:52.I was lying in bed and I could see the door handle moving. And then he
:20:53. > :20:56.steams in and he starts screaming and shouting, where is my dad, what
:20:57. > :21:07.have you done with my dad, you bitch. At which point, I was in
:21:08. > :21:10.shock. I didn't know who this person was. I was concerned for him because
:21:11. > :21:18.I could see that he was really agitated and upset. But it was very
:21:19. > :21:24.focused on me. And he was very close to you, as close as we are. Yes. I
:21:25. > :21:28.recoiled back into my bed, and he ripped the duvet off. I jumped out
:21:29. > :21:39.of bed at that point and ran to the other side of the room. And he kept
:21:40. > :21:43.shouting at me, but he was very focused and it was really confusing
:21:44. > :21:47.because it was loud and aggressive and was lots of gesticulating going
:21:48. > :21:51.on. And he had something under his jumper. He didn't seem as the same
:21:52. > :21:54.person in the photograph, necessarily? Not at all. The
:21:55. > :22:06.photograph, I cannot even visualise it. It was five years ago, and I saw
:22:07. > :22:10.it for 30 seconds. It transpired that on the ninth of torpor, he had
:22:11. > :22:14.sent an e-mail to his mother saying that he was in London and he had
:22:15. > :22:20.come into some money, probably from my handbag, and that was determined
:22:21. > :22:26.to murder a celebrity. The police did not tell me that. And I was
:22:27. > :22:39.living in the same flat. On my own. Albeit with a security guard. Then
:22:40. > :22:45.on the 11th, I think, I was DJing at an event and I came home at about
:22:46. > :22:50.1.00am to find the handbag that had been stolen on the bonnet of my car,
:22:51. > :22:58.burnt out, at which point I called the police. And the police came over
:22:59. > :23:04.and I think that it was the next day that they installed CCTV on the
:23:05. > :23:15.outside of my house. And then a day after that, he was arrested.
:23:16. > :23:28.And what happened in court? He was brought up from the cells, and he
:23:29. > :23:37.came in. He immediately made eye contact with me. He started shouting
:23:38. > :23:41.at me in court. When the judge said, why should I grant you bail today,
:23:42. > :23:44.he said because the world would be a better place without her and that is
:23:45. > :23:49.what I am here to do. There was nobody from the police and courts
:23:50. > :23:54.that morning so even though I have witnessed this, the police had not.
:23:55. > :23:58.Nobody was writing this down in order to notify the CBS that he was
:23:59. > :24:06.continuing to threaten me. There was a charge of burglary and harassment.
:24:07. > :24:09.But now stalking charge? No. It did not seem like they were interested
:24:10. > :24:19.in making that case. After I made evidence, I was taken into a room
:24:20. > :24:28.and told by the CPS that in his interview, he said that he was going
:24:29. > :24:34.to put a knife through my face. And in that interview, part of which was
:24:35. > :24:42.played in court, what did the police say? They said they were going to
:24:43. > :24:47.end the interview there. Until this happened to you, have you any idea
:24:48. > :24:59.of the extent of the problem with stocking? I had no idea the extent.
:25:00. > :25:04.As far as I am aware, it is 700,000 reported cases, 1% of which end up
:25:05. > :25:10.with a prosecution. That is why I have teamed up with the Women's
:25:11. > :25:16.Equality Party and Paladin, the charity associated with stalking, to
:25:17. > :25:20.lobby for this serial wood register. There are not many people in this
:25:21. > :25:30.country who have the resources to move house, take on a security
:25:31. > :25:34.guard. And a legal team, to push the CPS and the police. I feel very
:25:35. > :25:38.thankful that I have those resources but it makes me very worried about
:25:39. > :25:55.other women and men in this situation.
:25:56. > :25:57."Due to the high profile of this matter I fear other victims
:25:58. > :26:00.of similar crimes may have read the story and now may
:26:01. > :26:02.not have the confidence to report such matters.
:26:03. > :26:05.As such, it is really important that I can understand what, if anything,
:26:06. > :26:10.I was saddened to hear of this report and I would like to hear your
:26:11. > :26:17.I think it is victim shaming and victim blaming.
:26:18. > :26:24.But you know he will be sentenced now and that must bring some relief?
:26:25. > :26:30.It does bring me some relief if he is sentenced and dealt with as a
:26:31. > :26:36.mentally ill person. Because if he is not, I am not safe and my
:26:37. > :26:40.children are not safe. I am not in the slightest bit angry with Alex
:26:41. > :26:42.Gray. I could see from the minute that he came into my bedroom that he
:26:43. > :26:47.was ill and that he needed help. I wanted to help him,
:26:48. > :26:49.I felt immediately like something And I feel like, you know,
:26:50. > :26:55.he has been let down. And how many other people
:26:56. > :27:16.have been let down? Lily Allen's stalker is due to be
:27:17. > :27:18.sentenced next month and she is in touch with the Independent and
:27:19. > :27:20.please -- Independent Police Complaints Commission.
:27:21. > :27:22.Joining me now from Manchester is National Police Chiefs'
:27:23. > :27:24.Council Lead for Stalking and Harassment, Assistant Chief
:27:25. > :27:26.Constable Garry Shewan, of the Greater Manchester Police.
:27:27. > :27:29.And here in the studio with me is one of the London Mayoral
:27:30. > :27:31.candidates and leader of the Women's Equality Party,
:27:32. > :27:42.As you heard, they have teamed up with Lily Allen on this matter.
:27:43. > :27:45.Garry Shewan, that interview seems to raise some astonishing issues.
:27:46. > :27:48.There is something weird about a victim saying that she felt she was
:27:49. > :27:53.victim shamed, made to feel embarrassed by the police calling
:27:54. > :27:59.her out when she complained. How do you make sense of that? It is clear
:28:00. > :28:02.that what she insured must have been incredibly frightening. It is not
:28:03. > :28:07.just celebrities who get stopped. Every week, thousands of victims
:28:08. > :28:11.across the country, men and women, are subject to this frightening
:28:12. > :28:16.behaviour that does not seem to stop. It really tears them apart.
:28:17. > :28:20.And we have to do something about this. As a police service, as a
:28:21. > :28:25.criminal justice system, we have to listen to people like Lily Allen and
:28:26. > :28:29.move forward and learn. Hearing her story is really important. We have
:28:30. > :28:35.to be able to say to people across the country, that is an incredibly
:28:36. > :28:39.frightening experience and we need to do more and more every week now
:28:40. > :28:44.to ensure that we safeguard victims. She felt like she had been told off.
:28:45. > :28:48.When she spoke out and said, I don't think the police came to my rescue
:28:49. > :28:52.on this one, she got an e-mail saying don't deter other people from
:28:53. > :28:57.coming forward. Was that the right call for the Metropolitan police to
:28:58. > :29:01.make? I think we have the last victims, and sadly only one in four
:29:02. > :29:05.victims of stalking ever report their experience to police. Clearly
:29:06. > :29:09.people like Lily Allen who do not report put themselves in danger and
:29:10. > :29:13.we cannot assist them. Do you think the Metropolitan Police fails in
:29:14. > :29:17.this case? Listening to Lily Allen, clearly she feels let down and I do
:29:18. > :29:21.not know the circumstances of the investigation but she feels let
:29:22. > :29:25.down. We have to reach out to the victims and say, please believe us,
:29:26. > :29:28.we treat stalking very seriously and we have to encourage more people to
:29:29. > :29:34.come for bird. Too many people suffer for too long with this
:29:35. > :29:38.obsessive behaviour and we need to support them. -- come forward. I
:29:39. > :29:41.would encourage police forces around the country that this is an
:29:42. > :29:45.important story to listen to and yes, we prosecute more and more
:29:46. > :29:51.people, in the last two years we have successfully prosecuted 77%
:29:52. > :30:00.more cases of stalking than ever before. But that comes down to 1%.
:30:01. > :30:04.Is that right, 700,000 men and women are stalked and 1% convicted? I
:30:05. > :30:13.think what is really interesting here is during Gary talk about how
:30:14. > :30:18.few women report, because they feared this response, that it will
:30:19. > :30:25.not be taken seriously. But that figure, 700,000, that is like 2000 a
:30:26. > :30:29.day? The data is very poor. I don't think it is wrong but I think it
:30:30. > :30:35.could be much worse. We know that most women only come forward after
:30:36. > :30:41.their 100th incident. So the scale of the issue is huge. And what is
:30:42. > :30:44.good about the situation is that we have a stalking law that was
:30:45. > :30:53.introduced in 2012, and we have an agreed approach between Akpom and
:30:54. > :30:57.the CPS agreed in 2014. That is very basic and very necessary, such as
:30:58. > :31:00.referring victims to support services and making sure there is a
:31:01. > :31:03.single point of contact, taking a serious forensic approach from the
:31:04. > :31:09.get go. None of these things happened in Lily Allen's case.
:31:10. > :31:17.The law was introduced in 2012, the statistics speak for themselves,
:31:18. > :31:22.700,000 people stalked, but the police were only interested in the
:31:23. > :31:27.burglary in Lily's case and not the stalking. So an acceptance it is on
:31:28. > :31:32.the rise but a failure on an individual level to take seriously.
:31:33. > :31:37.700,000 in the British crime survey is people saying they have
:31:38. > :31:41.experienced stalking, not reported. They have experienced it. Every
:31:42. > :31:45.year, thousands of people are prosecuted under harassment and
:31:46. > :31:48.stalking laws which are the same statute. Stalking is far more
:31:49. > :31:53.serious and the penalty is more important. We have to get police
:31:54. > :31:58.officers and the CPS to recognise where there is stalking involved, we
:31:59. > :32:02.must charge with stalking. Too many stalkers get charged with harassment
:32:03. > :32:07.offences. And a stalking register, as we would have full sex offenders,
:32:08. > :32:11.is it important since stalking is illegal for there to be a register
:32:12. > :32:15.of people on it? There are a lot of things we can do and in 2016, we
:32:16. > :32:20.will see a great deal of activity. We want to see a stalking register
:32:21. > :32:23.and there will be new guidance for investigating and people can capture
:32:24. > :32:28.the evidence for the police service on their telephones which is really
:32:29. > :32:33.important. And also, we have just Anish consultation with the Home
:32:34. > :32:37.Office on the introduction of a stalking order -- we have just
:32:38. > :32:42.finished. To put controls on perpetrators from the moment it is
:32:43. > :32:47.reported. This is vital to combat it and keep people safe. The Women's
:32:48. > :32:53.Equality Party is doing this work with Lily and Paladin because it is
:32:54. > :32:56.important stalking is recognised but people are not recognising stalking
:32:57. > :33:00.and a key part of this campaign is to ringfence funding for special
:33:01. > :33:06.support groups who can use that expertise to train the police. What
:33:07. > :33:10.is happening is that it is separate incidents being recorded rather than
:33:11. > :33:16.seeing the full pattern. And on top of that, it is really important that
:33:17. > :33:21.is understood so hopefully when we move to a register of serial
:33:22. > :33:23.stalkers, people can recognise that pattern. Thank you, both.
:33:24. > :33:26.If you've been affected by any of the issues that
:33:27. > :33:28.we've discussed tonight, you can contact Paladin, the
:33:29. > :33:39.You have probably heard the one about the boat, the Turkish
:33:40. > :33:40.President and the antiquated law! -- goat.
:33:41. > :33:43.The fine line between great satire and mindless offence is one
:33:44. > :33:45.that is often tested - but a transgression doesn't
:33:46. > :33:46.often cause fully fledged diplomatic incidents.
:33:47. > :33:48.often cause fully fledged diplomatic incident.
:33:49. > :33:50.Not so the German satirist Jan Bohmermann's song about
:33:51. > :33:55.the Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
:33:56. > :33:59.It alleged the President was a fan of beast reality, among other
:34:00. > :34:02.things. -- beast reality. Mr Boehmermann is now under police
:34:03. > :34:05.protection and Angela Merkel's government has approved a criminal
:34:06. > :34:07.inquiry, under a little-used law concerning insults
:34:08. > :34:09.against foreign heads of state. It begs questions about free speech,
:34:10. > :34:12.German-Turkish relations, and more. The poem by a controversial
:34:13. > :34:16.German satirist has won Accusing the Turkish President
:34:17. > :34:26.of bestiality, among other things. But it has become a major
:34:27. > :34:28.international incident. To be fair, the comedian explicitly
:34:29. > :34:30.mentioned an obscure German law Paragraph 103 of Germany's Penal
:34:31. > :34:39.Code states, whosoever insults a foreign Head of State shall be
:34:40. > :34:42.liable to imprisonment, not Over 1,500 people have been
:34:43. > :34:53.prosecuted in Turkey He's been accused of cracking
:34:54. > :35:00.down on press freedom. But he has defended his
:35:01. > :35:03.attitude to satire. I must put it in very fine terms,
:35:04. > :35:06.we shouldn't confuse criticism With the refugee crisis in Europe
:35:07. > :35:13.top of the agenda and Turkey seen as key to solving it,
:35:14. > :35:15.the German Chancellor may have felt obliged to accept Erdogan's demand
:35:16. > :35:26.for the comedian to be investigated. President Erdogan is taking
:35:27. > :35:31.advantage of Merkel's desperation to stem the flow
:35:32. > :35:34.of Syrian migrants into continental Europe and therefore he puts
:35:35. > :35:37.pressure on her to open a criminal investigation against
:35:38. > :35:38.the German satirist. You make fun of us Germans liking
:35:39. > :35:40.David Hasselhoff... But Merkel is now facing
:35:41. > :35:42.accusations in Germany she has The great Public Intellectual
:35:43. > :35:53.Michael Ignatief - former leader of Canada's liberal
:35:54. > :36:01.party - joins us now from Harvard. I said, what choice does Angela
:36:02. > :36:02.Merkel have but to allow the prosecution? She could have said
:36:03. > :36:06.respectively to Mr Erdogan... Prosecuting a German national
:36:07. > :36:08.satirist for an insult to you is And you should not
:36:09. > :36:16.seek satisfaction in If you are offended, with respect,
:36:17. > :36:31.Mr Erdogan, it's your problem. There is a line, between satire and
:36:32. > :36:34.offence. And when you talk to Turkish journalists and they said
:36:35. > :36:40.this bordered on Islamophobia, it becomes a slightly different
:36:41. > :36:44.question. Come on, I think satire is not satire on less it is offensive.
:36:45. > :36:50.Of course this stuff is offensive. That is what satire is. The real
:36:51. > :36:57.issue is that Erdogan wanted to send a message to the Turkish population
:36:58. > :37:01.in Germany that he could put a free-speech chill on them and he
:37:02. > :37:08.wants to put a free-speech chill on all his journalists in Turkey.
:37:09. > :37:14.Especially at this time in Europe. A lot has been read into this. Do you
:37:15. > :37:21.see it as the beginning of the end of Western European values, as some
:37:22. > :37:26.others have suggested? I do not think, -- I do not think Westerns of
:37:27. > :37:31.lies Asian is at the right, I do not think free-speech is at threat.
:37:32. > :37:35.Brash Western civilisation. I hope the Germans will abolish the law
:37:36. > :37:43.that makes it possible for a Head of State to urge prosecution when they
:37:44. > :37:47.feel insulted. The other issue that will come more into the foreground
:37:48. > :37:54.is people will realise Erdogan is a bad guy. That this regime started
:37:55. > :38:00.reading Turkey towards democracy. There is tremendous support for
:38:01. > :38:09.democracy in Turkey, it is hugely important that Turkey is showing
:38:10. > :38:12.democracy can work, as an Islamic State. This guy is walking them
:38:13. > :38:17.back. Angela Merkel says she will abolish this law, what does this
:38:18. > :38:22.suggest between a feature relationship between Germany and
:38:23. > :38:26.Turkey? I think that is where a lot of Europeans are very concerned.
:38:27. > :38:31.What is the price we have paid in terms of freedom of speech, in terms
:38:32. > :38:35.of free Visa access for Turks into Europe? What price are we paying for
:38:36. > :38:40.the price of this refugee deal is the mark and the people who defend
:38:41. > :38:44.the refugee Convention and human rights, they are very concerned
:38:45. > :38:50.about the terms of the deal and whether it denies Syrian refugees
:38:51. > :38:56.the protections that refugee laws are supposed to provide for them. So
:38:57. > :39:01.I think everybody is looking at this incident with a sour -- with a
:39:02. > :39:06.satirist and asking a lot of questions about whether the price
:39:07. > :39:10.Europe has paid for a refugee deal has been simply too high. Do you
:39:11. > :39:13.think this will cost her politically, is this where people
:39:14. > :39:20.say that the rot has set in, and you are too keen to accommodate a
:39:21. > :39:25.country that is on the outside? What Merkel is saying to her Republic is,
:39:26. > :39:30.we do not need to solve this refugee problem with barbed wire. I can get
:39:31. > :39:35.a deal with the Turks that makes it a safe third country and take a
:39:36. > :39:41.diminished number of Syrians into the country and therefore maintain
:39:42. > :39:44.German consent for a generous refugee policy, without having to go
:39:45. > :39:53.barbed wire like barbarians have done. -- like the hungry and saw.
:39:54. > :39:58.She is on increasingly thin ice with the German public and this incident,
:39:59. > :40:00.she comes out looking weak and weakness is fatal in politics. Thank
:40:01. > :40:10.you very much. A pleasure. That is all we have time
:40:11. > :40:20.for but Evan is here tomorrow, good night.
:40:21. > :40:26.Good evening. A lovely spring day today, more sunshine on the way
:40:27. > :40:29.tomorrow. A chilly start in the Northern half of the UK and a touch
:40:30. > :40:31.of frost in the countryside.