:00:10. > :00:12.They say the first job of the state, is to keep us secure.
:00:13. > :00:17.Does the EU help, or does it just get in the way?
:00:18. > :00:19.Welcome to this Newsnight referendum special, with a studio of undecided
:00:20. > :00:29.and whether we'd get more or less of it, by leaving.
:00:30. > :00:34.We'll look at the big picture of European defence.
:00:35. > :00:38.What insiders will tell you is they are concerned
:00:39. > :00:41.if the British voice was no longer at the table, at those European
:00:42. > :00:43.summits and other meetings, the others would be more likely
:00:44. > :00:50.As one Frenchman put it to me, "Without Britain, we are
:00:51. > :01:10.And will our borders be more secure if we leave the EU?
:01:11. > :01:12.Would we just lose vital intelligence without
:01:13. > :01:20.The referendum campaign may have been dominated by the economy last
:01:21. > :01:23.week, but thanks to Theresa May, national security has
:01:24. > :01:28.The Home Secretary, a reluctant supporter of EU membership
:01:29. > :01:31.made her first big intervention today, telling us why
:01:32. > :01:39.she thinks we are more secure in the EU, than out.
:01:40. > :01:45.Our response to Paris and Brussels cannot be to say we should have less
:01:46. > :01:51.corporation with countries that are not only our allies but our nearest
:01:52. > :01:56.neighbours. And anyway, leaving the EU would not mean we could just
:01:57. > :02:00.close ourselves off to the world. The September the 11th attacks in
:02:01. > :02:05.New York were planned in Afghanistan. The July the 7th
:02:06. > :02:09.attackers trained in Pakistan. So my judgment as Home Secretary is that
:02:10. > :02:11.remaining a member of the EU means we would be more secure from crime
:02:12. > :02:14.and terrorism. But she also said some other pretty
:02:15. > :02:16.interesting things - We'd do better to leave
:02:17. > :02:19.the European Convention on Human Rights than
:02:20. > :02:21.the EU, she said. And she also suggested
:02:22. > :02:23.she didn't want more poor, corrupt countries to join the EU,
:02:24. > :02:26.like Turkey and Albania. She didn't put it quite as brutally
:02:27. > :02:28.as "poor and corrupt", She was counter to government
:02:29. > :02:34.policy on those issues, but she's meant to be
:02:35. > :02:36.supporting government policy. At heart though, we have a simple
:02:37. > :02:41.question this evening - is the EU aiding our
:02:42. > :02:42.security? We will delve into that -
:02:43. > :02:56.with a panel of experts here. And to start, let's talk briefly
:02:57. > :02:59.to one politician on Theresa Alan Johnson, former Labour home
:03:00. > :03:02.secretary is supporting the Remain Penny Mordaunt is the armed forces
:03:03. > :03:06.minister and is on the Leave side of the argument,
:03:07. > :03:08.she has been held up at a parliamentary vote tonight
:03:09. > :03:19.and will be joining us shortly. Theresa May was against the European
:03:20. > :03:27.human rights Convention. But against the EU? As predecessor as Home
:03:28. > :03:30.Secretary, she takes the same view as me that we are more secure in the
:03:31. > :03:35.EU. She has just concluded a negotiation that began when I was
:03:36. > :03:40.Home Secretary. Abdul Matt Taylor put into Detroit airport with
:03:41. > :03:44.Semtex. And there was an issue about the names of passengers being
:03:45. > :03:50.recorded across states. She has just concluded this passenger name record
:03:51. > :03:52.in directive which is important because we can exchange that
:03:53. > :03:58.information across all member states. She also got a couple of
:03:59. > :04:03.things out of the Prime Minister negotiations which help with
:04:04. > :04:08.security. It is strange that she is against government policy. What
:04:09. > :04:14.about new members, are you in favour of new members of the EU, Turkey or
:04:15. > :04:24.Albania? Many arguments about security are that we will have these
:04:25. > :04:30.countries. Of course we have a veto, it has to be every country. Should
:04:31. > :04:34.we use that veto? It depends, there is a big human rights issue in
:04:35. > :04:38.Turkey and they cannot meet Article six of the European Union,
:04:39. > :04:44.democracy, free speech and the rule of law. But if they pass that M I
:04:45. > :04:48.think the general principle of spreading the principles of the EU,
:04:49. > :04:55.the principles we believe in, are important. We did that to countries
:04:56. > :04:58.under the totalitarian rule of the Soviet union. And those under
:04:59. > :05:03.military rule and it has been good for those countries and good for
:05:04. > :05:08.Europe. That would mean that the EU basically has a border with Syria.
:05:09. > :05:09.It will be a long time before it becomes an issue and Britain has a
:05:10. > :05:12.veto. And tonight we're also joined
:05:13. > :05:14.by our panel of undecided voters, Perhaps you have made
:05:15. > :05:26.up your minds by now? On security, any points any of you
:05:27. > :05:36.are listening out for in the debate tonight? Looking basically for 1.1
:05:37. > :05:42.million, Syrian refugees, being taken in Germany. They will
:05:43. > :05:46.eventually be getting a European passport and they are then free to
:05:47. > :05:52.go all over Europe and the UK. That is no issue for me however, if there
:05:53. > :05:56.are some elements of security and a certain number of people who are not
:05:57. > :06:00.genuine asylum seekers and they have passed through, what kind of
:06:01. > :06:08.controls do we have over that and how do we guard against terrorism?
:06:09. > :06:12.Hold that thought. Any other worries or boards about security, how many
:06:13. > :06:16.of you would say security is at their book the economy in terms of
:06:17. > :06:19.how important your decision is best amok and how many of you would say
:06:20. > :06:26.that security is more important than sovereignty? Security clearly
:06:27. > :06:33.something of an issue. And lastly, quite a lot of this is going to be
:06:34. > :06:39.about Nato and events. Which dashed defence. Which is more important,
:06:40. > :06:45.the Nato aspect of security or street security, terrorism, how many
:06:46. > :06:48.of you would say you are worried about armed forces and the defence
:06:49. > :06:57.of the realm and all of that? And how many would say it is more about
:06:58. > :07:02.terrorism and safety on the streets. OK, that is what I'm getting. How
:07:03. > :07:07.strong will our borders continue to be whether we stay or leave? We will
:07:08. > :07:09.come to all of that in the second half of the programme.
:07:10. > :07:12.There is a live blog up and running, packed with extra thoughts
:07:13. > :07:16.and facts, you can find it at bbc.co.uk/newsnight.
:07:17. > :07:22.For as long as countries have existed, they've always known that
:07:23. > :07:24.for their security they need to do deals and make alliances.
:07:25. > :07:29.And right now, no-one is arguing for Britain to go
:07:30. > :07:35.The Brexit debate is about how we precisely configure our
:07:36. > :07:42.international alliances, and in particular whether the EU
:07:43. > :07:44.is irrelevant to our main defence group, Nato.
:07:45. > :07:48.Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban has been looking at how Brexit
:07:49. > :08:02.would affect defence and other aspects of our security.
:08:03. > :08:05.In Paris, they know Anglo-French relations have had their ups
:08:06. > :08:18.But at the Jena Bridge, built by Napoleon to mark his defeat
:08:19. > :08:22.of the Prussians, something happened when the tables were turned
:08:23. > :08:35.A British general showed the way to a new relationship.
:08:36. > :08:37.The Duke of Wellington discovered that his Prussian allies
:08:38. > :08:41.were about to come down here and blow the bridge up.
:08:42. > :08:45.They regarded it as a sign of their humiliation.
:08:46. > :08:47.the Duke posted British soldiers at both ends of the bridge
:08:48. > :08:50.to stop them doing it, and saved the bridge
:08:51. > :08:56.And since the final fall of Napoleon, it has been the same
:08:57. > :09:01.story time and again - of Britain backing the French up,
:09:02. > :09:04.often against the Germans, in one international crisis
:09:05. > :09:09.And that is why security and military people,
:09:10. > :09:13.particularly in Paris, express their alarm
:09:14. > :09:22.But if defence and security cooperation really takes place
:09:23. > :09:26.in Nato or through bilateral ties, why should leaving the EU have any
:09:27. > :09:36.The Brexit vote will be a lose-lose proposition.
:09:37. > :09:39.There will be less Great Britain in the world, and as a result
:09:40. > :09:41.of British departure, there will be less
:09:42. > :09:48.Even if you are no longer what you used to be, exactly,
:09:49. > :10:01.I mean, the two countries, France and Great Britain,
:10:02. > :10:04.still claiming the title of being the Deputy Sheriff
:10:05. > :10:08.We can't ask that from the Germans, the Italian,
:10:09. > :10:17.These days, when French soldiers storm the south of England,
:10:18. > :10:25.The current Griffin Strike exercises involve thousands
:10:26. > :10:34.It is part of an extensive cooperation between the two
:10:35. > :10:40.countries in Nato, the EU and bilaterally.
:10:41. > :10:43.A British exit to me is opening the lid of Pandora's Box.
:10:44. > :10:48.I don't think it is possible to argue that the rest of the union
:10:49. > :10:56.They will be, but how, in what way, is a far
:10:57. > :11:00.more difficult, far more difficult question to answer.
:11:01. > :11:12.The upheaval would not be limited to the United Kingdom.
:11:13. > :11:17.Or indeed arguably to continental Europe.
:11:18. > :11:22.The ripples could go wider, it seems to me.
:11:23. > :11:24.Among senior officers and intelligence bosses on both
:11:25. > :11:29.sides of the channel, I have found that pro-Brexit views
:11:30. > :11:34.are in the minority, but Rear Admiral Roger Lane-Noitt
:11:35. > :11:42.I am very supportive of Nato, as you would expect,
:11:43. > :11:46.The reality is I didn't see the EU was actually
:11:47. > :11:50.doing its job properly, pulling its weight.
:11:51. > :11:57.I suppose the final straw for me, really, was the fact that Juncker
:11:58. > :12:01.decided he wanted a European army and a European navy.
:12:02. > :12:03.When actually what they should be doing is putting
:12:04. > :12:17.Of course, there is a more immediate challenge for Europe.
:12:18. > :12:21.The spectre of further attacks by the Islamic State group.
:12:22. > :12:26.Intelligence is critical to preventing that.
:12:27. > :12:28.And there is a feeling here, too, that key relationships
:12:29. > :12:36.The essence of intelligence cooperation is, at the end
:12:37. > :12:39.of the day, what the respective parties are able
:12:40. > :12:46.And the United Kingdom, I think, still will have significant equities
:12:47. > :12:53.So that, at the end of the day, is probably going to be the key
:12:54. > :13:00.thing, in terms of how this collaboration continues.
:13:01. > :13:03.But when the France-Germany game came under attack
:13:04. > :13:07.in Paris last November, Europe's intelligence
:13:08. > :13:14.Much has been happening since to close gaps,
:13:15. > :13:22.and opponents of Brexit argue Britain could lose out on that work.
:13:23. > :13:27.What it does lose categorically is the automaticity of access
:13:28. > :13:31.to the data sets that other European services have, so travel
:13:32. > :13:38.information, credit card expenditure, mobile phone usage,
:13:39. > :13:42.and if the United Kingdom was no longer part of the EU,
:13:43. > :13:45.I assume it would have to renegotiate access
:13:46. > :13:51.The recent French and Belgium attacks have also caused
:13:52. > :13:58.the public to make a link between migration and terrorism.
:13:59. > :14:00.The discovery, first, that one of the suicide bombers
:14:01. > :14:04.here and then that other members of the Paris plot had come
:14:05. > :14:07.into Europe through the Greek islands, pretending to be Syrian
:14:08. > :14:11.refugees on fake passports, and work their way from country
:14:12. > :14:14.to country across Europe caused the whole nature of
:14:15. > :14:23.Many in Britain couldn't believe the security shortcomings that had
:14:24. > :14:27.been shown up by the attacks, but in some other EU countries
:14:28. > :14:37.they decided to take practical steps to change that state of affairs.
:14:38. > :14:41.It was Austria in particular that showed a willingness
:14:42. > :14:44.to push the envelope, in order to regain control
:14:45. > :14:51.The Austrians took a series of steps.
:14:52. > :14:54.Firstly, they put this fence on their border with Slovenia -
:14:55. > :14:58.not the most physically robust of obstacles,
:14:59. > :15:01.but very politically significant because it cut two Shengen states,
:15:02. > :15:08.where there is supposed to be free movement of people, from each other.
:15:09. > :15:10.Then they put a ceiling on the number of asylum seekers
:15:11. > :15:12.they would accept in Austria this year, that ran counter
:15:13. > :15:15.to EU and German policy, and then they started organising
:15:16. > :15:16.the Balkan countries down the refugee stream,
:15:17. > :15:21.to take their own concerted action to stop the flow
:15:22. > :15:33.The desire to take control, whatever the European Commission said,
:15:34. > :15:40.was not accompanied in Vienna by any move to leave the EU.
:15:41. > :15:45.Austria's display of independent mindedness extended to marshalling
:15:46. > :15:47.its neighbours, some in the EU, some not,
:15:48. > :15:52.to stop hundreds of thousands moving across their country.
:15:53. > :15:57.You know, we still urge for a European solution.
:15:58. > :16:11.And of course, a European solution is always the better solution.
:16:12. > :16:18.But there was, at the beginning of this year, a situation
:16:19. > :16:21.where we thought we cannot wait any longer.
:16:22. > :16:26.Do you have an idea how many asylum seekers are entering the country,
:16:27. > :16:32.since the Greek border was closed in Macedonia?
:16:33. > :16:37.We had 800, 900 asylum seekers in one day.
:16:38. > :16:52.So what is happening on Austria's border with Slovenia?
:16:53. > :16:56.At the peak of the migration crisis, 4,000 people a day were passing
:16:57. > :17:01.It was one of the principle hotspots.
:17:02. > :17:07.But workers here told us that since early March,
:17:08. > :17:11.when Macedonia closed its border with Greece as part of that plan
:17:12. > :17:15.co-ordinated by Austria, nobody has arrived here.
:17:16. > :17:20.Now, they are starting to dismantle the transit camp.
:17:21. > :17:24.The transformation is quite remarkable.
:17:25. > :17:28.And you could argue that the migration crisis shows how
:17:29. > :17:30.incapable the EU is, and therefore provides another
:17:31. > :17:38.The actions of a country like Austria in driving a coach
:17:39. > :17:44.and horses through the EU's asylum rules and the Shengen agreement have
:17:45. > :17:48.displayed that it can act energetically in its national
:17:49. > :18:00.interest, and not even think about leaving the EU.
:18:01. > :18:04.If there are now grounds for hope that Europe can get on top
:18:05. > :18:10.of the migrant crisis, there are still bigger
:18:11. > :18:19.And reminders about how past crises were solved.
:18:20. > :18:22.In a corner of Vienna there is a little relic
:18:23. > :18:24.of the Soviet Union most people have long forgotten.
:18:25. > :18:32.This war memorial reminds us that for ten years after the war,
:18:33. > :18:35.Austria, like Germany, was a divided country,
:18:36. > :18:39.but the Soviet army left here in return for a treaty signed
:18:40. > :18:41.by the great powers guaranteeing that Austria would not join Nato,
:18:42. > :18:54.The Russian foreign minister has flown in to meet his
:18:55. > :18:56.western opposite number at the Belvedere Palace and sign
:18:57. > :18:59.By December 31st, all four countries' occupation forces
:19:00. > :19:04.There can be no doubt in Austrian minds this is a step
:19:05. > :19:14.Today, as in the 1950s, the Kremlin is very keen to stop
:19:15. > :19:16.certain countries joining Nato, or even the western family
:19:17. > :19:26.And of course, it is the smallest states or the weaker ones that find
:19:27. > :19:28.that type of pressure hardest to resist.
:19:29. > :19:36.Would Europe be more tempted to adapt an appeasement
:19:37. > :19:38.Would Europe be more tempted to adopt an appeasement
:19:39. > :19:40.policy towards Moscow, without Great Britain?
:19:41. > :19:47.At least, that is probably the thinking of Vladimir Putin
:19:48. > :19:50.in Moscow, when you see that he wants very much, in a way,
:19:51. > :20:01.Great Britain to leave the European Union.
:20:02. > :20:04.But for those who favour Brexit, that is not a decisive argument.
:20:05. > :20:13.I am not sure Putin would be too worried about it.
:20:14. > :20:16.He would smile, and I think he would look at what is going on,
:20:17. > :20:20.but he may be worried that actually this could force the UK to be even
:20:21. > :20:24.But the UK not being part of the European Union,
:20:25. > :20:31.doesn't make much difference to whatever his plans may be.
:20:32. > :20:34.While Britain works out its exit terms, if that is what happen,
:20:35. > :20:38.The terror threat will remain high in Europe, and Russia assertive.
:20:39. > :20:44.Britain's allies would rather not be dealing with Brexit as well.
:20:45. > :20:47.So why has President Obama gone out of his way to make it clear
:20:48. > :20:54.that he does not wish Britain to leave the European Union?
:20:55. > :21:00.Well, it is because Washington is of the belief, and I believe
:21:01. > :21:02.they are right, that they can influence and guide European
:21:03. > :21:15.security better with their old ally in the union, rather than out of it.
:21:16. > :21:18.If Nato remains the cornerstone of western security,
:21:19. > :21:22.why are Britain's closest friends the US and France, so worried
:21:23. > :21:30.Well, what insiders will tell you is they're concerned that
:21:31. > :21:33.if the British voice was no longer at the table at those European
:21:34. > :21:36.summits and other meetings, the others would be more likely
:21:37. > :21:43.As one Frenchman put it to me, "Without Britain,
:21:44. > :21:54.Being useful to America, or for that matter France
:21:55. > :21:59.or Germany, might seem a bit craven to many Britains,
:22:00. > :22:03.but that, after all, is the basis of alliances,
:22:04. > :22:16.At the University of Paris Dauphine, there is a reminder those factors
:22:17. > :22:21.This utterly unremarkable building was, until 1966,
:22:22. > :22:26.But the whole lot had to go when General de
:22:27. > :22:34.You might argue the whole saga of General de Gaulle and Nato shows
:22:35. > :22:40.you can have huge ructions within an international
:22:41. > :22:43.organisation, throw it out even, and in the end people get
:22:44. > :22:58.Having done what they did in the 60s, the French spent decades
:22:59. > :23:02.regretting it, and in fact the best part of 20 years wheedling their way
:23:03. > :23:09.back in to the military structure of the western alliance.
:23:10. > :23:17.The unknowable, from Paris to Washington, is whether those ties
:23:18. > :23:19.of mutual interest would be sufficiently strong for those allies
:23:20. > :23:26.to make light of the headaches that might well follow Brexit.
:23:27. > :23:28.Food for thought from Mark Urban there.
:23:29. > :23:30.Austrian and French food in particular.
:23:31. > :23:33.You can see that in the Brexit debate over foreign policy
:23:34. > :23:35.and security, there is a parallel to the discussion we
:23:36. > :23:41.The central question is, if we leave the EU, do we lose
:23:42. > :23:44.a good relationship we have, and do we gain a better relationship
:23:45. > :23:46.with the rest of the world in its place?
:23:47. > :23:50.On the economy, the idea we'd have new trade relationships
:23:51. > :23:54.In security, the argument is around Nato and a better
:23:55. > :23:58.For this few minutes, let's stick on the subject of Nato
:23:59. > :24:07.We'll come to crime and terror later.
:24:08. > :24:13.Penny, Armed Forces minute stir has joined us now. Thank you for
:24:14. > :24:17.hot-footing it from the Commons. Theresa May, she is a voice, often
:24:18. > :24:21.trusted on security, I think, what was your reaction to her coming out,
:24:22. > :24:25.so clearly on the security issue, in favour of remaining? Her position is
:24:26. > :24:31.very difficult, if you look at who is on the Brexit side, it is Armed
:24:32. > :24:33.Forces ministers the Security Minister, the human rights
:24:34. > :24:37.minister... Not the defence minister. Not the Security Minister.
:24:38. > :24:44.No, the Security Minister is... The Home Secretary. It is those people
:24:45. > :24:48.who don't have those political relationship, and would be causing
:24:49. > :24:52.embarrassment to support the Brexit campaigner, the people who are
:24:53. > :24:55.concerned with the operational responsibility of keeping the UK
:24:56. > :24:59.safe. Theresa May is concerned with that, isn't she. She S who knows
:25:00. > :25:06.where she will be by the end of week. I think it is incredibly
:25:07. > :25:09.concerning, we are facing an aggressive Russia with, facing these
:25:10. > :25:14.increasing terrorist threat, and this is what we should be focussing
:25:15. > :25:17.on t practical thing, not bureaucracy, not setting up new
:25:18. > :25:24.committees or agency, the practical things. Let us talk about that. I
:25:25. > :25:29.wonder what your explanation is that senior Nato people who are not
:25:30. > :25:33.involved in the EU, the Secretary-General, a strong UK in
:25:34. > :25:37.Europe is good for our security, good for Nato, a fragmented Europe
:25:38. > :25:42.is bad for security, bad for Nato. Why do people like him say things
:25:43. > :25:48.like that. They know the way the world work, I know you have Diss
:25:49. > :25:52.missed Obama's comment, he doesn't explain Europe. But the
:25:53. > :25:56.Secretary-General does. There is much we agree on but I would say the
:25:57. > :26:01.trajectory we are on, and if you look at the state of the EU at the
:26:02. > :26:05.moment, we have weak and fragmented states, the film you have shown,
:26:06. > :26:11.shows the rising distrust there is between member state, people are
:26:12. > :26:16.having to break EU rules, to try and keep their population safe, and what
:26:17. > :26:20.ultimately, I know we are coming on the terrorism, what ultimately will
:26:21. > :26:26.keep us safe from Russian aggression is if we have strong prosperous
:26:27. > :26:29.member states who are able to invest in their defence, and security
:26:30. > :26:34.apparatus, and that is what will keep Russia at bay. So we don't have
:26:35. > :26:39.that, we have a growing problem with forced harmonisation. Will all those
:26:40. > :26:46.thing, I mean I don't want to get back on to the economic debate, but
:26:47. > :26:50.will all those things make Europe better attacking Russia? Do you
:26:51. > :26:54.think Brexit will make Europe better attacking Russia? Why does the
:26:55. > :27:00.Secretary-General think not, that Brexit would make it worse. I could
:27:01. > :27:04.quote Ben Hodge, he thinks it, Europe will unravel, it will be a
:27:05. > :27:10.knock on effect, he is worried by that. We have worked very hard to
:27:11. > :27:16.secure reform, in Europe, and we have failed. Our list, when we went
:27:17. > :27:20.into the renegotiations has failed and we have weakened our position,
:27:21. > :27:26.because the Prime Minister has given up our veto, so we are in a weaker
:27:27. > :27:33.position now, I think that a vote to leave will do two things, by the UK,
:27:34. > :27:37.taking back control of its law, its border, and its finances we will be
:27:38. > :27:41.Sayer, we will have the powers we'd toe keep our country safe, but it
:27:42. > :27:46.will also be a catalyst to reform in Europe. You could see at the end of
:27:47. > :27:53.those negotiations, other European countries saying actually, thinking
:27:54. > :27:58.about it we would like some reform. I wonder, is this going to be bad
:27:59. > :28:05.for President Putin, or good for him. I think the trajectory we are
:28:06. > :28:11.on is good news for those that wish us harmful we have distrust,
:28:12. > :28:16.increasing between member state, we have a situation where we are having
:28:17. > :28:21.a growing migrant crisis, and all the threats that come with that,
:28:22. > :28:24.what the EU is, is the authority without any responsibility
:28:25. > :28:28.whatsoever. We have to get, whether it is the economy or whether it is
:28:29. > :28:32.national security, us to focus back on what member states need, to keep
:28:33. > :28:35.their citizens safe. In this time of austerity, if we are doing anything
:28:36. > :28:42.else, it is a waist of resource and energy, that is what we need to
:28:43. > :28:46.focus on and it is the operational cooperation, the interopera bill we
:28:47. > :28:49.need to focus on. Let me pick up that point, Alan Johnson, no-one, is
:28:50. > :28:55.mainstream argument is not suggesting we leave Nato at this
:28:56. > :29:02.point. Nato provides the security, and so why is it going to make a big
:29:03. > :29:08.difference, on security, on defence, if we leave? The reason the
:29:09. > :29:14.Secretary-General of Nato don't want us to leave, the Prime Minister and
:29:15. > :29:18.the Home Secretary, is because the EU complements what Nato is doing.
:29:19. > :29:22.It is important, it is one of the two big organisations set up after
:29:23. > :29:26.the war, three if you count the United Nations to stop war happening
:29:27. > :29:31.again. What Nato couldn't do, is to do what Cathy Ashton and the
:29:32. > :29:34.European Union did with Iran, and to seek to negotiate, to start those
:29:35. > :29:38.negotiations that reduce their nuclear capability. Successfully in
:29:39. > :29:41.the end. What they couldn't do is convince the rest of the European
:29:42. > :29:44.Union to introduce sanction against Russia because of what was happening
:29:45. > :29:48.in Ukraine, but Nato was very keen for that but they know doesn't have
:29:49. > :29:52.the power, it is about external defence, the two work together. I
:29:53. > :29:55.didn't hear a single argument from Penny, I understand the arguments
:29:56. > :29:59.because I hear them all the time about why we should leave because it
:30:00. > :30:02.better for the economy. I didn't hear how it is better for our
:30:03. > :30:06.defence, the crucial argument that was made in that film, was not just
:30:07. > :30:09.for Britain, for our security, and for our defence but what we do to
:30:10. > :30:14.our neighbours and our continent in walking away. We have the biggest
:30:15. > :30:18.defence budget. Our expertise is better than other countries as well.
:30:19. > :30:23.And you know, going off into isolation and saying you get on with
:30:24. > :30:28.it now, doesn't seem to me to be the way to -- forward.
:30:29. > :30:36.We're not walking away from Europe. We are focused on building
:30:37. > :30:41.capability in Europe. That is not what this is about, it is about the
:30:42. > :30:48.nitty-gritty operational ability to keep us safe. Just one example of
:30:49. > :30:52.the difference between mission and EU mission, currently we have a good
:30:53. > :30:57.EU mission in East Africa, billions have been put into it and because
:30:58. > :31:03.one member state once that money to be spent elsewhere, they have the
:31:04. > :31:06.power to veto that. All the investment, billions of pounds that
:31:07. > :31:11.have gone into that, will be wasted if that happens and currently we are
:31:12. > :31:16.looking at someone from outside the EU putting money into that mission.
:31:17. > :31:22.So it is not an alliance like Nato. How does that help Nato for the UK
:31:23. > :31:27.to walk away from the EU, that is what I cannot understand. How does
:31:28. > :31:38.it improve our defence for the UK to leave the EU. Those networks, the
:31:39. > :31:41.Secretary General of Nato says it former heads of the armed forces say
:31:42. > :31:46.that, how would it help us to walk away? I would argue briefly that we
:31:47. > :31:51.would stop some duplication that goes on in missions. The EU defence
:31:52. > :31:57.structures, we would lose nothing by walking away from that, there are
:31:58. > :32:00.open to Nato and non-EU member states. The thing that we would gain
:32:01. > :32:03.is we would be able to take back control of our own borders. That is
:32:04. > :32:09.vital. We will come to that. We're also joined tonight
:32:10. > :32:16.by a panel of experts. On the Leave side, Richard Walton,
:32:17. > :32:18.who was Counter Terrorism Commander for the Metropolitan
:32:19. > :32:20.Police until January. a commander of some British
:32:21. > :32:23.forces in Afghanistan. And for Remain, former director
:32:24. > :32:25.of Liberty Shami Chakrabarti. And Rob Wainwright who is director
:32:26. > :32:37.of Europol, the law enforcement Sticking to the bigger defence
:32:38. > :32:42.picture, Richard Kemp, let me bring you in on entering the point of Alan
:32:43. > :32:48.Johnson, how do you help Nato by coming out of the EU. You put a huge
:32:49. > :32:53.weight Nato as the strategic alliance. There is no question in my
:32:54. > :32:58.mind having been in the British Army and involved not just on the ground
:32:59. > :33:05.but at higher levels throughout the Cabinet Office, the reality is that
:33:06. > :33:10.if we left the EU we would undermine the EU ultimate plan forming an EU
:33:11. > :33:14.army and that is what they're going to be doing. Too many of these
:33:15. > :33:19.generals, they're looking at fighting in the last war which is
:33:20. > :33:24.what generals often do. We need to look forward. The EU intends to have
:33:25. > :33:28.a EU army. The Prime Minister will disagree with that, many will
:33:29. > :33:34.disagree. There has been some chat about it. Jean-Claude Juncker has
:33:35. > :33:39.spoken of an army and navy. That would undermine Nato because it
:33:40. > :33:44.takes away resources from later. Already Barack Obama told us to go
:33:45. > :33:49.to the back of the queue and he was also today attacking the EU for not
:33:50. > :33:55.putting enough money into defence and he is right. We have a veto and
:33:56. > :34:02.we would clearly be able to veto being involved in an EU army. Having
:34:03. > :34:06.a referendum because the EU has gone far than people in the UK ever
:34:07. > :34:10.expected. And how much further would it go in the future. The EU project
:34:11. > :34:15.is about building a superstate and no doubt we would get drawn into
:34:16. > :34:21.that. If the Alan Johnson party comes into power would a beta of
:34:22. > :34:24.these things! It was a close run thing whether we went into the
:34:25. > :34:28.Europe and we could get sucked into something like that. This is not an
:34:29. > :34:33.argument that we would improve our defence by leaving Europe as I
:34:34. > :34:36.understand it, it is a fantasy argument about something that might
:34:37. > :34:39.happen in the future, that we leave Europe now because something might
:34:40. > :34:48.happen in the future that we have a veto over. Penny, is that something
:34:49. > :34:52.that worries you, a European army? It worries me because I think all
:34:53. > :34:56.member states need to focus on the things that have a practical a
:34:57. > :35:03.tangible benefit. If we had an EU army it would not do any war
:35:04. > :35:08.fighting. The notion that it could be deployed, or indeed an
:35:09. > :35:13.intelligence agency, that will not lead to greater intelligence
:35:14. > :35:17.sharing. To finish the section on defence, would be easier for us to
:35:18. > :35:22.persuade them not to have an army if we are in or out, one thought would
:35:23. > :35:33.be they're much more likely to have an army if the UK is in it. Friends
:35:34. > :35:40.aside, the UK is the only country to have serious military power and the
:35:41. > :35:46.will to yield it. -- wielded. We are having these conversations now when
:35:47. > :35:50.we're it. We tried reform in we've got to do do something that would be
:35:51. > :35:54.it a catalyst to reform. I do not want them to be doing things that
:35:55. > :35:56.would not make them safer. Security is not just about defence,
:35:57. > :35:58.geo-political positioning, and facing up to President Putin,
:35:59. > :36:00.or failing to. It's also about security
:36:01. > :36:02.on our own streets, That has been obvious
:36:03. > :36:07.since the Paris and Brussels attacks So let's focus on that for the next
:36:08. > :36:11.section of the programme. Again, you're weighing up potential
:36:12. > :36:14.losses and gains. If we leave, do we stand to lose
:36:15. > :36:17.much, in cooperation Do we stand to gain more border
:36:18. > :36:21.security and freedom to do We'll ask our guests,
:36:22. > :36:25.but security means being armed, so let's arm ourselves
:36:26. > :36:40.with some facts. Thanks to the channel and North Sea
:36:41. > :36:44.the UK still has a well-defined border with the continent. We are
:36:45. > :36:47.not in the borderless Schengen zone so we check travel documents of
:36:48. > :36:51.people coming in and of course there are any way security checks on
:36:52. > :36:56.planes, the Eurostar and cars using the tunnel. One important exception,
:36:57. > :37:00.the UK has an open border with the Republic of Ireland. Anyone who gets
:37:01. > :37:04.to Dublin can drive to Belfast and fly to the UK. It is not clear what
:37:05. > :37:10.border arrangements would apply here if we left the EU. A key concession
:37:11. > :37:14.is that EU citizens can turn up and get into the UK with just a valid
:37:15. > :37:19.travel documents. We can refuse entry only if an individual
:37:20. > :37:22.constitutes a genuine present and sufficiently serious threat
:37:23. > :37:27.affecting one of the fundamental interests of society. Obviously you
:37:28. > :37:31.would have to know that someone is such a threat. We cannot refuse
:37:32. > :37:36.entry simply on the grounds that someone has a criminal conviction.
:37:37. > :37:41.We can deport EU citizens but not easily. And again only in serious
:37:42. > :37:46.cases relating to public policy, security or health. Away from the
:37:47. > :37:49.border, the UK course rates with EU on security. Here is a phrase book
:37:50. > :37:50.of key terms. There's the Schengen
:37:51. > :37:52.Information System. A pan-European database covering
:37:53. > :37:54.anything from missing people, to those involved in serious crimes,
:37:55. > :37:57.and those who should There are more than 46 million
:37:58. > :38:04.entries and last year, Britain made a quarter of a million
:38:05. > :38:09.enquiries on that database. There's the European Arrest Warrant,
:38:10. > :38:13.introduced in 2004. It expedites extraditions
:38:14. > :38:17.within the EU and stops The European DNA database holds
:38:18. > :38:28.police DNA, fingerprints and vehicle 5 million records
:38:29. > :38:37.held across Europe. The UK stands aside from this. But
:38:38. > :38:41.then there are areas where the EU has failed to meet hopes for more
:38:42. > :38:42.information sharing. Most notably, plans to collect
:38:43. > :38:44.Passenger Name Records, or PNRs. The idea is to oblige airlines
:38:45. > :38:48.to hand over passenger data. It has been debated since 2011
:38:49. > :38:55.and has still not been implemented. A little guide into some security
:38:56. > :39:08.practicalities there. Richard Walton, you ran counter
:39:09. > :39:11.terrorism until earlier this year at Scotland Yard. How valuable and how
:39:12. > :39:15.much would you regret the loss of intelligence sharing that you were
:39:16. > :39:22.getting from other authorities in the EU? We face a global terrorist
:39:23. > :39:27.threat, not regional, and as the Home Secretary said today, she said
:39:28. > :39:31.passing across her desk were more cases relating to international
:39:32. > :39:37.terrorism outside EU borders went in. It is not a probably face but a
:39:38. > :39:45.global terrorist threat. And we need a global response and not a regional
:39:46. > :39:49.one. The database managed by the EU, I would say they are marginal, of
:39:50. > :39:52.marginal benefit and do not handle secret intelligence. Secret
:39:53. > :39:56.intelligence relating to terrorism is passed from country to country by
:39:57. > :40:00.naturally according to a different set of rules. It is of some benefit,
:40:01. > :40:05.the Schengen information system, the passenger database mentioned is
:40:06. > :40:11.useful and European Arrest Warrant is useful but marginal. I would also
:40:12. > :40:16.say that you do not need to be in the EU to use those databases.
:40:17. > :40:21.Iceland and Norway both use them. Neither of them are in the EU.
:40:22. > :40:25.They're both in the Schengen incidentally, so they share
:40:26. > :40:30.information that way. Europol have a number of operational agreements
:40:31. > :40:34.with a lot of different countries outside the EU, Columbia, Australia,
:40:35. > :40:39.the United States. So it is not worth that much but we would get it
:40:40. > :40:44.anyway. And for information sharing, there's a balance of payments
:40:45. > :40:47.surplus, we give more than we get in general? We have the finest
:40:48. > :40:53.intelligence agencies probably outside of America anywhere in the
:40:54. > :40:59.world. Our counterterrorism infrastructure is envied across the
:41:00. > :41:05.world. There is no way the EU would ever want to preclude our data,
:41:06. > :41:10.whether secret data or non-secret, from either Schengen information
:41:11. > :41:15.database or bilateral. We will carry on, if we let the EU we would carry
:41:16. > :41:18.on regardless. It would make no difference whatsoever in terms of
:41:19. > :41:23.information sharing. We do that across the EU but also with Turkey,
:41:24. > :41:30.with Afghanistan, wherever the threat might be. Rob Wainwright from
:41:31. > :41:35.Europol, what is wrong with that argument, it sounds quite natural.
:41:36. > :41:38.In Europol we operate many of these martial databases Richard spoke
:41:39. > :41:43.about and they are anything but. The Schengen information system is the
:41:44. > :41:48.largest security database in Europe, over 60 million entries. At Europol
:41:49. > :41:54.we are connecting over 600 law enforcement agencies, bulk data
:41:55. > :41:58.processing systems working alongside intelligence services and
:41:59. > :42:02.arrangements with the Americans. This is not having to choose between
:42:03. > :42:06.America or Europe, or even between different forms of cooperation
:42:07. > :42:11.within Europe. It is a complex terrorist threat we face, we need to
:42:12. > :42:16.have the maximum range of cooperation tools. At the moment the
:42:17. > :42:20.EU is building significant and unique instruments for data sharing
:42:21. > :42:26.across Europe. You saw them on the film, I will give you more examples
:42:27. > :42:37.now. But we would be in them anyway, they would not kick as out of any.
:42:38. > :42:40.But how do you know. There is no country currently has access to that
:42:41. > :42:45.database that is both outside the EU and outside the Schengen area. We
:42:46. > :42:50.would be that country. We would have to make a historical precedents
:42:51. > :42:59.therefore negotiation access to that database. So no direct access. And I
:43:00. > :43:01.could go on. Of course the UK wouldn't negotiate it is partial
:43:02. > :43:06.access to be some arrangements but it would not be as effective as it
:43:07. > :43:12.is now and meanwhile the rest of Europe is institutionalising the
:43:13. > :43:22.sharing of data through EU systems. Interpol has been existence since
:43:23. > :43:25.1956, Europol for 20 years. Interpol shares data and information across
:43:26. > :43:30.190 states. The last major terrorist attack we had affecting UK citizens
:43:31. > :43:36.was 30 British nationals killed on a beach in Tunisia. Tunisia is not
:43:37. > :43:39.part of the EU. You have duplicated what was already in existence with
:43:40. > :43:44.Interpol. What we needed to do was invested Interpol and not create
:43:45. > :43:50.another set of information databases and we had no idea whether they use
:43:51. > :43:53.the same search regimes. We have not done that and the rest of Europe has
:43:54. > :43:57.not and so far they have institutionalised their work through
:43:58. > :44:02.the EU including building up Europol in a way that operates in a
:44:03. > :44:08.different way to Interpol. Richard mentioned the attack in Tunisia but
:44:09. > :44:11.do not forget more recently right on our doorstep in Paris and Brussels,
:44:12. > :44:16.carried out by European people operating on European soil. Who
:44:17. > :44:21.entered from Syria, outside the EU. But information about who they are,
:44:22. > :44:25.where they came from, are they speaking with anyone in the UK, it
:44:26. > :44:28.can be held in the hands of European services who are sharing that data
:44:29. > :44:33.through bilateral channels and more and more to use systems as well.
:44:34. > :44:37.Interpol does not play a role in that. You made a case that we would
:44:38. > :44:41.not be worse off because those databases are not important and we
:44:42. > :44:44.would use them anyway but can you make the case that we would be
:44:45. > :44:51.better off in terms of information leaving the EU? I'm not making that
:44:52. > :44:57.case. I'm saying on that issue, let me just address one issue, Europol
:44:58. > :45:00.has been exaggerating its responsibilities and operational
:45:01. > :45:06.capabilities. It is important that the public understand it is not a
:45:07. > :45:10.law enforcement agency. It has presented itself recently as a law
:45:11. > :45:15.enforcement agency and it is not. It is not important counterterrorism it
:45:16. > :45:21.has never made an arrest, the public must understand what Europol is and
:45:22. > :45:24.what it is not. It is a platform connecting 600 law enforcement
:45:25. > :45:28.agencies through the sharing of thousands of messages every day
:45:29. > :45:33.allowing national authorities to make those arrests. If we have
:45:34. > :45:37.someone coming in here flagged on that database, that is not enough
:45:38. > :45:42.for us to exclude them from coming to this country. How often is this
:45:43. > :45:46.occurring, that someone is flagged and we let them in. We have to have
:45:47. > :45:54.different thresholds from people coming from the EU than outside the
:45:55. > :45:59.EU. It happens frequently. We have to have really a cast-iron case
:46:00. > :46:08.against an individual. A few a year or a few a day rest at thousands a
:46:09. > :46:15.year. 25,000 people last year. It is a myth to say we do not control or
:46:16. > :46:18.borders. Theresa May to have credit strengthened... We're just heard
:46:19. > :46:24.people must be let in. The thresholds have changed, Theresa May
:46:25. > :46:31.negotiated at tightening up of that. This is in recent negotiations. And
:46:32. > :46:42.they have no legal weight. It is an international agreement. The issue
:46:43. > :46:49.is about... We can stop people. Everyone has to show their passport.
:46:50. > :46:54.And everyone is checked and if people are not, if they have
:46:55. > :47:00.criminal records, they are engaged in terrorism, we turn them away.
:47:01. > :47:05.What is the current state of play, if it but there are thousands of
:47:06. > :47:08.people who are on watchlist is who we let in, who we would not want to
:47:09. > :47:17.let in but have two because we are in the EU? That is not the case.
:47:18. > :47:21.5,000 foreign fighter who are currently tying in crack, who no
:47:22. > :47:26.doubt will be returning some time soon, when the war ends there, back
:47:27. > :47:31.in to Europe, from the states they were, will they be allowed to...
:47:32. > :47:38.This is about the quality of information. We are not in Schengen.
:47:39. > :47:44.That would be ample grounds... We We have them on list, we look at the
:47:45. > :47:50.passport and we can say no. , So Penny is wrong. That is not correct.
:47:51. > :47:54.It is not enough that someone has a criminal record. That could be minor
:47:55. > :48:01.shoplifting, he is talking about terrorism. And including links to
:48:02. > :48:07.terrorist organisation, that is not enough to exclude them. The other...
:48:08. > :48:09.Links to terrorist organisation, is your understanding someone with
:48:10. > :48:15.those links we can stop them coming in. Without question. From the EU.
:48:16. > :48:23.So there is a factual difference, we won't sort it out here. But... The
:48:24. > :48:27.database may or may not The issue is the quality of information. I want
:48:28. > :48:33.to bring Shami in. We have been talking more security is better more
:48:34. > :48:37.intelligence is better, in your many years at Lynnty -- Liberty, no
:48:38. > :48:41.longer there, you were concerned about some of these things and some
:48:42. > :48:46.of the European projects like the European Arrest Warrant, which is a
:48:47. > :48:51.pretty quick expedited process for getting someone into court in a
:48:52. > :48:56.different country. If we leave, do we get more civil liberties, are you
:48:57. > :49:01.happier door we get fewer? I don't think we get, I don't think we get
:49:02. > :49:05.more, I think this is a shrinking interconnected world. We can't run
:49:06. > :49:11.away from that, globalisation is a reality not a choice. I want that
:49:12. > :49:14.globalisation not to just be about organised criminals and terrorist,
:49:15. > :49:20.and massive cop rat, I want that globalisation to be a sharing of
:49:21. > :49:25.human rights values. I have at times been critical of certain measures
:49:26. > :49:29.taken by you, but that is a very important point. I have been
:49:30. > :49:32.critical of certain measures taking by UK Governments and European
:49:33. > :49:36.institutions too, I want there to be cooperation on security, I just want
:49:37. > :49:42.it to also be subject to appropriate safeguards, checks and balances. I
:49:43. > :49:46.want to use you as an expert witness on deportation, one of the things
:49:47. > :49:50.that is said it is harder to deport someone who is an EU citizen. Will
:49:51. > :49:54.is a hiring standard of damage to get them out than we would need for
:49:55. > :50:01.other country, if we leave, will it be easier for us to deport people? I
:50:02. > :50:05.think that when we are talking about security, we are talking about, not
:50:06. > :50:09.petty criminal, we are talking about threats to national security, you
:50:10. > :50:13.are well able to deport people even within the EU, there is no doubt
:50:14. > :50:17.about that. When people form family ties in the UK, over a long period
:50:18. > :50:23.of time, they become more difficult to deport, whether it is to the EU
:50:24. > :50:26.or anywhere else, and that is rightly, because human heights --
:50:27. > :50:31.rights law respects the right of children to be with their parents.
:50:32. > :50:37.Is that the, European convention of human rights which is not do do
:50:38. > :50:41.with... On deportation, when people express concern, about refugees, and
:50:42. > :50:46.of course we call them migrants and everything other than their true
:50:47. > :50:49.name which is ref gee, I would remind people another part of
:50:50. > :50:54.Churchill's important post-war settlement and legacy is the refugee
:50:55. > :50:59.convention, we are bound to give people refugee protection under the
:51:00. > :51:04.refugee convention, I don't believe even Brexit people say they want to
:51:05. > :51:09.tear that up. Up. It is the Dublin arrangements within the EU that
:51:10. > :51:12.allow Britain to send even some genuine refugees back to another
:51:13. > :51:19.member state, if they came to that state first. Penny, do you buy what
:51:20. > :51:23.you have heard. 252... Do you want to leave the European convention on
:51:24. > :51:26.human rights as well as the EU? Think one of the issues about that
:51:27. > :51:34.convention that particularly concerns me, is the effect it has on
:51:35. > :51:38.our operations in defence. So, and I am sure Colonel Kemp with back me up
:51:39. > :51:46.on this. I will give you one example. When we were in
:51:47. > :51:51.Afghanistan, we arrested in a fire fight, we took prisoner someone from
:51:52. > :51:56.the Taliban who was making IEDs on an industrial scale. We held him for
:51:57. > :52:01.more than 96 howevers for his own protection, so that we could --
:52:02. > :52:08.hours so we could ensure when he was handed oh he wouldn't face torture,
:52:09. > :52:13.he is now suing us, successfully for breaching his human rights. You, it
:52:14. > :52:17.sound like you do, you can't pick and choose, can you. There are grave
:52:18. > :52:22.difficultties with what that means for us, because it is undermining
:52:23. > :52:27.international humanitarian law, things like the Geneva Conventions
:52:28. > :52:31.which do sensible things that allow us to take prisoners. Do you think
:52:32. > :52:36.most on your side, your party share your view that these two, the EU and
:52:37. > :52:41.the European convention of human rights you might as well come out of
:52:42. > :52:47.both, if you are doing the buy one get one free? Very learn people have
:52:48. > :52:53.said you, the only way to do that, is to leave the EU. I am not a
:52:54. > :52:57.lawyer. You want to tear up the human rights convention, that other
:52:58. > :53:01.part of Churchill's settlement? I think there have been unintended
:53:02. > :53:05.consequence, no-one set out to cause come casings but for me, if we are
:53:06. > :53:10.sending our Armed Forces into battle, and they are not able to
:53:11. > :53:14.take prisoners an they face being sued for doing their job, I think...
:53:15. > :53:20.What about the grieving families who lost their children at deep cut.
:53:21. > :53:24.They wouldn't have had an inquest that is happening. That is not the
:53:25. > :53:30.case. It is. As a matter of law it is the case. I don't want to go too
:53:31. > :53:37.deeply into that, Alan Johnson, do you think we end up coming out of
:53:38. > :53:39.the human rights convention? In case viewers might be confused, the
:53:40. > :53:43.European Court of Human Rights is nothing to do with the European
:53:44. > :53:47.Union, OK? It is, Theresa May was making this point today. It is the
:53:48. > :53:52.European Court of justice which is different. I don't agree with
:53:53. > :53:56.pulling out the European Court of human right, the convention was
:53:57. > :54:00.written by British civil servant, after the war, to stop that terrible
:54:01. > :54:03.including the Holocaust happening again, it very important, as a
:54:04. > :54:08.message to the rest of the world. But it is a completely separate
:54:09. > :54:15.argument. It, people are going to link them. It is separate. If you
:54:16. > :54:19.are going to, if you are going to leave the convention, arguably you
:54:20. > :54:26.have got to leave the EU. You have to be in both. People do say that
:54:27. > :54:33.condition of being in the EU... The problem is... Why don't we leave
:54:34. > :54:37.Nato? I want to tairt up because it places the rights of terrorists
:54:38. > :54:42.above the rights of British citizens. I have allowed far too
:54:43. > :54:51.much discussion, I want to ask Penny a few last questions about borders
:54:52. > :54:54.specifically. And Penny, Dominic Rab subjected we would have visas
:54:55. > :54:59.between continent of Europe and the UK, if you didn't have visas, would
:55:00. > :55:04.you get more security at the border than we have now? I think what, what
:55:05. > :55:10.you need to do is to take back control to be able to make decision,
:55:11. > :55:14.currently, you can't do that, there are all sorts of arrangements. You
:55:15. > :55:18.want to have the option, I want to be clear, we check everybody as they
:55:19. > :55:22.come in, we can't exclude them for small thing, we can only exclude
:55:23. > :55:26.them for big thing, what difference is that border going to make if you
:55:27. > :55:30.don't have a proper border with visas where you check people, they
:55:31. > :55:34.go to the Embassy and they are interviewed. There are all sorts of
:55:35. > :55:39.arrangements you could have. Visa free but some sort of light visas
:55:40. > :55:45.like we do with the United States, the key thing is, that you can make,
:55:46. > :55:48.with what intelligence you have, a decision about whether to keep
:55:49. > :55:53.someone out, or let them in. That is what we don't have. We don't have
:55:54. > :55:57.full control. I understand. What do you do about the board tweern the
:55:58. > :56:02.Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, because the republic is not
:56:03. > :56:06.going to put visa restrictions to France, to it is going to let people
:56:07. > :56:12.in from Paris, they are going to drive across the border to Belfast,
:56:13. > :56:17.they can get on a plane, fly to Britain, what, what is your solution
:56:18. > :56:22.for that border? Well, the, prior your to the EU coming into being,
:56:23. > :56:27.there are arrangements between northern and southern Ireland. But
:56:28. > :56:32.that is... What arrangements are you proposing? Those could be negotiated
:56:33. > :56:36.between us. I can't even, I am struggling to imagine what it is,
:56:37. > :56:43.other than a border. A military border is this There are a raft of
:56:44. > :56:46.things that you... One example. Police check, the presumption at the
:56:47. > :56:52.moment if you have a European passport you are waved through. What
:56:53. > :56:55.we are arguing for is to have the, is the turn the presumption round
:56:56. > :57:01.the other way, so it is, yes you can come in, but we will make sure that
:57:02. > :57:06.you are not a criminal, you haven't got terrorist traces. So a
:57:07. > :57:11.checkpoint between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. I used
:57:12. > :57:15.to stand at Terminal 1 and we used to check passengers as they came
:57:16. > :57:22.through. It was a border control. You know, from... From Belfast to
:57:23. > :57:26.Great Britain, or from... Both. Every other British border has a
:57:27. > :57:30.checkpoint. Have you sounded people in Northern Ireland on that? I am
:57:31. > :57:36.saying borders are not necessarily a bad thing, we have seen 2 hundred
:57:37. > :57:41.people killed in in terrorist attacks in two years because of...
:57:42. > :57:46.Last comment. The irony is the information we need, to identify a
:57:47. > :57:50.sex offender or drug traffickers at the moment is in the Schengen
:57:51. > :57:54.information system It is not. I don't know when the last time you
:57:55. > :57:58.stood at ard bore control point. That is what we are using to
:57:59. > :58:03.identify them. -- a border control. Our borders will be less safe. I
:58:04. > :58:08.want to, we are just about out of time ago eventually. We have had
:58:09. > :58:12.some clear factual differences which people will go away, check out and
:58:13. > :58:18.will report back on. I want to ask our audience. Have you heard
:58:19. > :58:23.anything that has swayeddown way or the other, more -- swayed you one
:58:24. > :58:27.way or the other. It is mainly -- made me realise security isn't a for
:58:28. > :58:32.or against leaving the EU argument, because it sounds like we will be
:58:33. > :58:37.just as secure if believe, so why is it, why, we believe. Why, if we are
:58:38. > :58:40.going to share information if we leave the EU, we the EU isn't a
:58:41. > :58:46.mechanism. I won't make so much difference. I am not hearing that at
:58:47. > :58:52.all. I am not hearing anything concrete to get of. I am hearing
:58:53. > :58:56.abstract idea, nothing concrete I can get hold of. Because I haven't
:58:57. > :59:01.got to the bottom of the detail, there appear to be devils in detail,
:59:02. > :59:07.then I am risk-averse, I would rather not change things, if I don't
:59:08. > :59:10.have a cast iron guarantee, that things are going to function, I
:59:11. > :59:15.haven't heard. It is non-scientific. How many of you listening to the
:59:16. > :59:21.debate tonight have thought, what I have heard would steer me a little
:59:22. > :59:27.more or more towards leaving the EU? How many would say the debate has
:59:28. > :59:32.steered you towards leaving? And how many are saying it steered me more
:59:33. > :59:36.towards staying? Really. Goodness. That is interesting. Penny you have
:59:37. > :59:40.a bit of persuading to do. I remember from the first debate, one
:59:41. > :59:44.of the comments you made was that you felt you wanted to be something,
:59:45. > :59:49.a part of something bigger, part of something all together, I think one
:59:50. > :59:54.of the most offensive arguments that has been put forward, from the
:59:55. > :00:00.re-main camp is that somehow if we left the EU, that France, or Germany
:00:01. > :00:03.or any other member state would not share information, would not
:00:04. > :00:09.co-operate with us, they would put their own citizens and ours in
:00:10. > :00:15.harm's way, to out of spite, and I think that is not the case, you only
:00:16. > :00:18.have to look at the out pouring of solidarity that happened after the
:00:19. > :00:22.London bombings or the recent events in Paris to know that that is not
:00:23. > :00:27.the case at all. The argument that hasn't been discuss tonight, is why
:00:28. > :00:33.we would be safer, if we came out. Currently, judgments that are made
:00:34. > :00:35.in the European Court are putting in jeopardy our only intelligence
:00:36. > :00:40.agencies is. Which one? The European Court. It is part of the free
:00:41. > :00:46.movement. Which decision. Part of the free movement rules and it is
:00:47. > :00:53.what it is saying is that we cannot share our information, we cannot...
:00:54. > :00:58.Which decision? You haven't reached agreement. What it is doing is
:00:59. > :01:03.undermine ourable to share information with the US. -- our
:01:04. > :01:08.aren't. We need to leave it there. And I can tell you what, on our blog
:01:09. > :01:12.page there is lots of fact checking and there there will be teams of
:01:13. > :01:16.producers trying to work out whether, what some of the factual
:01:17. > :01:20.differences are. Let me thank politicians, Penny,
:01:21. > :01:24.Alan, our expert panel and our regular audience, we have had three
:01:25. > :01:28.of these specials now, we are half way through them, our next special
:01:29. > :01:33.focuses on migration, that is going to be on Tuesday at, the 12th May. I
:01:34. > :01:47.will be back tomorrow. Join me then, good night.
:01:48. > :01:48.Good evening. It will be a cold start today on Tuesday, some