:00:11. > :00:19.And the story emerges is that one of the outside gates leading into that
:00:20. > :00:23.terrace was broken. People without tickets got in and were therefore
:00:24. > :00:28.overcrowding the people with tickets and that is why the crush occurred.
:00:29. > :00:34.The vast majority of that Lott had been drinking, the ones arriving
:00:35. > :00:37.late. I welcome the enquiry which will reveal the true nature and
:00:38. > :00:41.cause of this terrible tragedy. I think anyone who looks at the nature
:00:42. > :00:45.of the offence, when they are placed in the position of having the
:00:46. > :00:48.knowledge those officers have, I think they will view it very
:00:49. > :00:55.differently. I think drink was a factor. The police certainly aren't
:00:56. > :01:00.to blame. The suggestion that two people, one the Chief Constable of
:01:01. > :01:05.the biggest police force outside of London, and one about to become the
:01:06. > :01:12.Lord Chief Justice, get together and cook the books is ridiculous. Now
:01:13. > :01:14.you can all believe us. Unlawful. Today I want to apologise
:01:15. > :01:21.unreservedly to the families and those affected.
:01:22. > :01:25.So, Liverpool 1, South Yorkshire police, Yorkshire ambulance
:01:26. > :01:28.services, successive inquiries, in fact, the whole bloody
:01:29. > :01:30.establishment that failed to stop a Hillsborough cover up...
:01:31. > :01:36.This is the scene here tonight - St George's Hall festooned
:01:37. > :01:40.with banners, truth, justice, decorated with candle-lit lanterns.
:01:41. > :01:42.This is to be the location of a commemoration tomorrow
:01:43. > :01:48.A collective sigh of relief that the record at last now shows
:01:49. > :01:53.that South Yorkshire Police, by allowing thousands of extra fans
:01:54. > :01:55.to pour into an already over-crowded stadium, were grossly
:01:56. > :02:00.The deaths were unlawful, not just an accident.
:02:01. > :02:03.And crucially, the fans were not in any way to blame
:02:04. > :02:07.It took a while and several goes, but British justice
:02:08. > :02:11.In fairness, the truth of what happened has been
:02:12. > :02:16.There was an apology from the Prime Minister in 2012.
:02:17. > :02:18.But today, the conclusion of an official inquest is the most
:02:19. > :02:21.important milestone in a long journey.
:02:22. > :02:24.Panorama journalist Alastair Jackson looks at the police cover-up and why
:02:25. > :02:27.it took so long for the survivors and relatives of the victims to get
:02:28. > :02:42.There are fans on the pitch in the six yard area. The referee will have
:02:43. > :02:47.to stop the game. Hillsborough, Britain's worst stadium disaster. A
:02:48. > :02:53.cup semifinal when 96 supporters lost their lives. Now, finally, a
:02:54. > :02:58.quarter of a century later, a story about justice achieved. All of those
:02:59. > :03:04.people didn't deserve to die in the circumstances in those pens on the
:03:05. > :03:09.15th of April 19 89. I just prayed, put my hands together and prayed to
:03:10. > :03:14.my son and the other 95, please God, you are going to sleep well tonight,
:03:15. > :03:21.James. An extraordinary verdict, so clear, so people utterly exonerating
:03:22. > :03:25.the fans, and the families condemn the South Yorkshire Police and did
:03:26. > :03:28.it with clarity and understanding of the evidence. Hillsborough should
:03:29. > :03:32.never been a tragedy where the facts are hard to determine. Thousands had
:03:33. > :03:37.seen what happened here and the chaos of the emergency response that
:03:38. > :03:42.followed had captured on television. There are a number of fans seriously
:03:43. > :03:46.injured. But the lies started straight after the disaster and the
:03:47. > :03:50.match commander, is Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield
:03:51. > :03:54.told officials from the Football Association that fans had forced
:03:55. > :04:02.open a gate. It was a rumour that reached the BBC commentary box. I
:04:03. > :04:06.have got an explanation. The story emerges that one of the outside
:04:07. > :04:10.gates leading into that terrace was broken. People without tickets got
:04:11. > :04:16.in, were therefore overcrowding the people with tickets and that is why
:04:17. > :04:21.the crash occurred. Four months later, Lord Justice Taylor concluded
:04:22. > :04:25.the disaster was down to a failure of police control. He played and
:04:26. > :04:30.David Duckenfield for a blunder of the first magnitude. The decision to
:04:31. > :04:34.close off the entrance to this part of the terrorism would have
:04:35. > :04:37.prevented the disaster. Instead, it was left open and thousands of
:04:38. > :04:43.supporters flooded onto it, causing a crush. The Taylor report should
:04:44. > :04:48.have ended the debate about who was to blame for Hillsborough. Instead,
:04:49. > :04:52.it was the last time the truth came anywhere near the surface. It was
:04:53. > :04:56.buried by a South Yorkshire Police cover up, that wanted to put the
:04:57. > :05:01.blame on the fans. I am saying, if police officers had been in there
:05:02. > :05:03.when this mob surged through, the police officers would have been
:05:04. > :05:09.trampled to death underneath. The vast majority had been drinking, the
:05:10. > :05:13.ones arriving late and they will not be told where to go, well do
:05:14. > :05:18.anything you are trying to do. What can you do? Behind-the-scenes,
:05:19. > :05:21.police statements had been altered to take out criticism of the
:05:22. > :05:26.emergency response. One South Yorkshire Police officer said he was
:05:27. > :05:33.there when the cover-up was planned. I attended the meeting on the Monday
:05:34. > :05:36.morning. And it was clearly put to the meeting that the organisation
:05:37. > :05:40.was going to put the blame on the drunken, ticketless Liverpool fans
:05:41. > :05:44.for what happened on the previous Saturday. They were going to go out
:05:45. > :05:48.and look at the evidence did Rivette. They had formed the
:05:49. > :05:52.hypothesis and they've got the evidence to prove that point. The
:05:53. > :05:56.inquest heard re-things were given on the night of the disaster by
:05:57. > :06:00.South Yorkshire Police officers in their sports and social club. These
:06:01. > :06:06.claims formed the basis of the sun newspaper headlines discrediting the
:06:07. > :06:09.fans. The suspicion Liverpool supporters were to blame has
:06:10. > :06:14.lingered ever since. As well as ruling the killings were unlawful,
:06:15. > :06:18.the jury concluded the fans were in there were to blame. For the first
:06:19. > :06:23.time the jury concluded many of the supporters died after 3:15pm the
:06:24. > :06:28.controversial cut-off point set by the original coroner. The last death
:06:29. > :06:32.could has been as late as five p.m.. The jury said South Yorkshire
:06:33. > :06:36.Ambulance Service delayed declaring a major incident. Only two regular
:06:37. > :06:41.ambulances made it onto the field. The rest were outside with no
:06:42. > :06:46.direction as the injured died inside the ground. It has taken 25 years,
:06:47. > :06:49.but these verdicts make it clear it was the decisions taken by the
:06:50. > :06:55.authorities here and not the behaviour of supporters, that cause
:06:56. > :07:00.Britain's worst football disaster. I want to make it absolutely clear, we
:07:01. > :07:03.unequivocally accept the verdict of unlawful killing and the wider
:07:04. > :07:10.findings reached by the jury in the Hillsborough inquest. On the 15th of
:07:11. > :07:14.April 1989, South Yorkshire Police got the policing of the FA Cup
:07:15. > :07:20.semifinal at Hillsborough, catastrophically wrong. The judgment
:07:21. > :07:26.opens the door for criminal prosecutions to follow. But for the
:07:27. > :07:31.Hillsborough families today, it is all about a vindication.
:07:32. > :07:33.The journalist Peter Marshall was at Hillsborough
:07:34. > :07:37.His Panorama three years ago, on the mistakes made that day
:07:38. > :07:40.and the efforts made year after year to stop anyone finding out
:07:41. > :07:53.Peter, for someone who went back to the first enquiry and had seen the
:07:54. > :07:58.conclusion is that it was the fault of the police and not the fans, what
:07:59. > :08:02.has changed, what really is new about what we have got today over
:08:03. > :08:10.what we haven't learned then. Learned in the Taylor enquiry? Yes.
:08:11. > :08:14.They said there was an error of the first magnitude made by the match
:08:15. > :08:19.commander. But they didn't say today as the jury said, that the 96 people
:08:20. > :08:26.were unlawfully killed but it was gross manslaughter. There was no
:08:27. > :08:31.conclusion. It is a giant step. It is not just the police, this is the
:08:32. > :08:36.first time a jury has laid the blame on the South Yorkshire Ambulance
:08:37. > :08:42.Service. In the Taylor enquiry, the Ambulance Service were praised, a
:08:43. > :08:46.knee jerk reaction. This jury said, they didn't do a good job and the
:08:47. > :08:49.rescue attempt was abysmal and people may have died because of the
:08:50. > :08:55.failure of their rescue attempt, them and the police. There is
:08:56. > :08:58.criticism of Sheffield Wednesday football club because there was no
:08:59. > :09:03.signage and they had failed to have a proper turnstile system and there
:09:04. > :09:08.is criticism of the engineers for the capacity because it was too
:09:09. > :09:13.high, given the restrictions with the fences. Also they fail to update
:09:14. > :09:20.the safety certificate. So a lot more blame to go around. What
:09:21. > :09:26.happens now? What happens next? There are two major in criminal
:09:27. > :09:29.investigations. Operation resolve under the former Chief Constable of
:09:30. > :09:33.Durham and also the Independent Police Complaints Commission
:09:34. > :09:39.enquiry, the IPCC, their biggest enquiry going on. They will finish
:09:40. > :09:43.by the end of the ear, supposedly. They are doing a lot of work. Going
:09:44. > :09:50.through a lot of witnesses and interviews. The IPCC is looking at
:09:51. > :09:54.what happened after the disaster, the alleged cover-up and what
:09:55. > :10:01.happens before the disaster is part of the remit of operation resolve.
:10:02. > :10:06.But there is a lot of overlap. It is not just individuals being looked at
:10:07. > :10:14.here. We know David Duckenfield has been interviewed under caution. But
:10:15. > :10:16.potential suspects, include not just individuals but organisations. South
:10:17. > :10:23.Yorkshire Police are not the only force under investigation. West
:10:24. > :10:27.Midlands Police... They did the first investigation into South
:10:28. > :10:29.Yorkshire Police? Yes, they reported the first flawed inquest and
:10:30. > :10:36.supplied evidence to the Taylor enquiry. They also supplied evidence
:10:37. > :10:37.to the DPP of the day which gave South Yorkshire Police a clean bill
:10:38. > :10:40.of health. And you can see Peter Marshall's
:10:41. > :10:56.report for us on Hillsborough With me now is Andy Burnham Home
:10:57. > :11:02.Secretary -- Shadow Home Secretary and a solicitor representing the
:11:03. > :11:09.families. Marcy, 27 years, what is your reaction to what happened
:11:10. > :11:18.today? There are no words. Even as a lawyer, I am stunned. Expressions of
:11:19. > :11:25.joy, the light, sorrow, sadness. There are no words that can describe
:11:26. > :11:31.it, it is an amazing, remarkable day and an historical day. Not just for
:11:32. > :11:34.the families but for Liverpool, and for football. Andy Burnham, the
:11:35. > :11:40.South Yorkshire Police came out and apologised today. You would have
:11:41. > :11:44.listened to that apology, I just wondered what you made of it? I
:11:45. > :11:49.didn't make much of it, to be honest. The South Yorkshire Police
:11:50. > :11:53.apologised after the Hillsborough Independent Panel report in 2012.
:11:54. > :11:57.The question for them tonight is why did they go back on that apology at
:11:58. > :12:04.this inquest and not repeat their admission of liability? Their
:12:05. > :12:08.failure to do that lengthened this inquest, cost millions of pounds in
:12:09. > :12:12.public money, but worst of all put the families through sheer hell
:12:13. > :12:19.again. It went two years, this inquest, which is a very long
:12:20. > :12:23.inquest, the longest we have ever known. And you are saying that lies
:12:24. > :12:29.at the fault of the police, essentially trying to hold out
:12:30. > :12:34.against admitting liability? Yes, the main criticism I make is of the
:12:35. > :12:39.retired officers and their lawyers. They threw the old slurs around in
:12:40. > :12:43.this court. When the High Court squash the original inquest, he said
:12:44. > :12:48.he ruled the new inquest should not descend into an adversarial battle.
:12:49. > :12:54.Sadly, and deeply regrettably, that is exactly what happened. That is
:12:55. > :12:58.because the cover-up continued in this Warrington court room. I cannot
:12:59. > :13:05.justify lies being told with public money in a court room. How was it
:13:06. > :13:13.for the families of the victims, going through this inquest? It
:13:14. > :13:19.wasn't easy. It was difficult, painful. These families have had 25
:13:20. > :13:26.years and they are tenacious and they wanted the inquest. What this
:13:27. > :13:30.day has proved is the result of the inquest process. One of the most
:13:31. > :13:36.amazing processes in the world in terms of looking at depths, where
:13:37. > :13:41.there have been questions, whether has been involved. It has been a
:13:42. > :13:45.really hard process but they have prevailed and finally tonight their
:13:46. > :13:50.loved ones can rest in peace for the first time in 27 years. One of the
:13:51. > :13:56.differences this time, they have much better state financed, legal
:13:57. > :14:02.representation. How much of a difference did that make? An amazing
:14:03. > :14:06.difference. In this inquest, for the first time, there was an equality of
:14:07. > :14:13.arms. This is needed in every inquest. Nine times out of ten, in
:14:14. > :14:17.fact, ten times out of ten there is an inequality, and as Margaret
:14:18. > :14:21.Aspinall said today, they families stand alone why the state is
:14:22. > :14:31.represented... By someone who is saying, it wasn't us. Inquest
:14:32. > :14:43.cemented the inquisitive, but many times they are adversarial.
:14:44. > :14:51.A question for inquests in the future? Yes and I will raise that in
:14:52. > :14:57.the House tomorrow. Also, please visit should no longer be able to
:14:58. > :15:02.retire just to escape proceedings. There needs to be a change in the
:15:03. > :15:08.law to say that you can't go off on all health to escape all
:15:09. > :15:11.accountability. We've had truth and justice, now there must be
:15:12. > :15:16.accountability. As we stand looking at this today, what do you think of
:15:17. > :15:21.English justice? Has it worked? It did get there in the end, the truth
:15:22. > :15:25.came out. Or is it a catastrophic failure that it has taken so long
:15:26. > :15:30.for the official verdict to reach this point? There have been failures
:15:31. > :15:36.and it has taken a long time. But look, truth, justice, I say no more.
:15:37. > :15:40.27 years, two long, but... This legal team have been brilliant for
:15:41. > :15:44.the families and I pay tribute to them. But in the end there is a
:15:45. > :15:48.positive. This country, although 27 years on, has in the end been able
:15:49. > :15:54.to look itself in the mirror and own up to some of the darkest failings
:15:55. > :15:59.in our past and that is a positive. The great big positive is for this
:16:00. > :16:05.city of Liverpool. In the aftermath, victimised, the slurs. They stood
:16:06. > :16:09.together, the people of this city. They understood what true solidarity
:16:10. > :16:14.means. Because of that solidarity, this city has prevailed and in the
:16:15. > :16:18.end the cloud has been lifted. Thank you very much indeed, both.
:16:19. > :16:21.Perhaps one lesson of Hillsborough is not to always think
:16:22. > :16:27.Back in 1989, the bad reputation of football fans,
:16:28. > :16:29.the aftermath of the Heysel stadium disaster, conspired to make it
:16:30. > :16:31.easy to link any crowd problem to hooliganism.
:16:32. > :16:34.Add a little misinformation fed to a credulous newspaper or two,
:16:35. > :16:46.and it became almost impossible for some people to ever shed
:16:47. > :16:48.the view that the fans must themselves have been responsible.
:16:49. > :16:51.One might say that the police diversion and cover-up
:16:52. > :16:54.was astonishingly successful, as it took more than 20 years
:16:55. > :16:58.For those there on the day though, there was never any
:16:59. > :17:01.One person there was Peter Hooton, the vocalist
:17:02. > :17:05.He gave us his reflections on the effect of Hillsborough
:17:06. > :17:13.That date is etched into the consciousness
:17:14. > :17:21.As we travel to Sheffield on that beautiful, sunny spring morning,
:17:22. > :17:24.nothing could have prepared us for that day when 96 innocent men,
:17:25. > :17:28.women and children lost their lives at a football match watching
:17:29. > :17:41.For over a quarter of a century, I've known the truth.
:17:42. > :17:47.After all, I was an eyewitness, I saw Liverpool fans, in the words
:17:48. > :17:49.of Justice Taylor in 1989, "initiate and coordinate
:17:50. > :17:53.I've always called them the heroes of Hillsborough.
:17:54. > :17:56.I went on the pitch from the North stand about 20 minutes
:17:57. > :18:00.Most people on the pitch that day, including me, where bewildered,
:18:01. > :18:07.feeling hopeless, confused or inadequate.
:18:08. > :18:09.I asked a line of policemen, deployed on the halfway line,
:18:10. > :18:12.presumably to stop what they thought was a pitch invasion,
:18:13. > :18:21.But they said they couldn't move as they were waiting for orders.
:18:22. > :18:26.The things I witnessed that day would haunt me for many years.
:18:27. > :18:28.In the days after the disaster, the city of Liverpool
:18:29. > :18:37.As we tried to come to terms with our grief and our loss,
:18:38. > :18:39.and even before the families had a chance to bury their dead,
:18:40. > :18:44.we were subjected to a classic smear campaign.
:18:45. > :18:46.A false narrative was promoted to deflect the blame away from those
:18:47. > :18:54.Or as Lord Stuart Smith's scrutiny said in 1997, the press reports
:18:55. > :19:10.Neil Fitzmaurice was in the central pens that day.
:19:11. > :19:16.He still holds papers like the Sun in contempt for what they
:19:17. > :19:23.When there was a movement in the crowd, a surge, if you like,
:19:24. > :19:26.you were going from here to five, six, seven feet away in seconds.
:19:27. > :19:28.And it was just being carried along and people
:19:29. > :19:31.You've got to remember we were on steps as well.
:19:32. > :19:34.And when people were losing their footing and going under,
:19:35. > :19:37.and when you were going under, you are never coming back up.
:19:38. > :19:41.It got to the point with the people who had lost consciousness and worse
:19:42. > :19:43.were popping up alongside us, because there was
:19:44. > :19:46.When those papers come out, and it was talking
:19:47. > :19:48.about the Liverpool fans hindering the police and saying
:19:49. > :19:50.the most vulgar things and attacking the police,
:19:51. > :19:56.It threw everything up in the air for me.
:19:57. > :20:01.I didn't know what to believe in any more, it made me really panic.
:20:02. > :20:04.But it was the authorities who had briefed the press with a fictitious
:20:05. > :20:14.The city was no stranger to protest and standing up for its rights
:20:15. > :20:18.But little did we know this would be the longest struggle in the history
:20:19. > :20:25.Brian Reade is a campaigning journalist, who for years
:20:26. > :20:29.struggled to get newspapers interested in printing the truth.
:20:30. > :20:33.I think there is no doubt that Liverpool people,
:20:34. > :20:36.by 1989 and the 90s, were used
:20:37. > :20:39.to feeling that they were kind of, getting the bad end of the stick,
:20:40. > :20:43.It was the whole Thatcher cuts to the council,
:20:44. > :20:47.militants taking them on, there was the riots.
:20:48. > :20:51.It was the butt of every comedian's joke.
:20:52. > :20:59.And I think there had been a siege mentality, you take on one,
:21:00. > :21:02.I've heard since, people have written to me and said this
:21:03. > :21:05.could only really happen - this is outsiders from Liverpool,
:21:06. > :21:07.said this could only really happen with Scousers, everyone else
:21:08. > :21:10.would have given up a long time ago because they didn't have that
:21:11. > :21:16.Today's historic verdict is a vindication for the 27 years
:21:17. > :21:24.of struggle and solidarity against all the odds.
:21:25. > :21:27.I just wish some of the families and campaigners who have
:21:28. > :21:31.passed away could have witnessed this momentous day.
:21:32. > :21:43.Peter Hooten there, who remembers the day all too well.
:21:44. > :21:45.I'm joined by Julia Fallon, sister of Andrew Sefton, one
:21:46. > :21:51.And Glynn Philips, a doctor who was there, who was caught up
:21:52. > :22:07.Good evening to you both. Julie, tell us a little about Andrew. I see
:22:08. > :22:10.his name was up there. If you had to stereotyping, you would say he is
:22:11. > :22:18.-- he was a gentle giant. He was over six foot. He had a wicked sense
:22:19. > :22:22.of humour, rather like my father. He wasn't a Liverpool fan, he was a
:22:23. > :22:27.Tottenham fan, what was he doing, just driving his friends? Yes, he
:22:28. > :22:31.was home for the weekend and they had a car and he had a spare ticket,
:22:32. > :22:34.so it seemed like a perfect idea. We were just -- they were just looking
:22:35. > :22:39.forward to a good day and the weather was nice and it was going to
:22:40. > :22:47.be a good match. What was your memory of that day? How did you find
:22:48. > :22:50.out what happened? I had just had my daughter and she was a matter of
:22:51. > :22:54.weeks old and I had just ventured out for the first time, been out to
:22:55. > :23:00.the shops that day, and I came home at 5pm and I was met with my father
:23:01. > :23:03.and my husband really anxious and desperate and they had been trying
:23:04. > :23:10.the emergency helpline, which wasn't any good at all. In the end it was
:23:11. > :23:15.decided that they would travel to Sheffield while I stayed with my
:23:16. > :23:20.daughter. They made the journey across and, like all the families
:23:21. > :23:25.really, went from pillar to post and ended up identifying Andrew in the
:23:26. > :23:29.early hours. In the early hours of the next morning. It really took
:23:30. > :23:35.quite a long time to establish? Yes, yes. Just in terms of how it
:23:36. > :23:40.affected your family... You have lost your parents since then? Yes,
:23:41. > :23:49.they've both died. So they didn't get to hear this. My dad died on the
:23:50. > :23:55.day that the inquests were quashed. I would like to think... I suppose
:23:56. > :23:59.all I can say is it is a really hard concept for people I think, when
:24:00. > :24:03.something has gone on for that amount of time committed becomes in
:24:04. > :24:07.bedded in your life. As I say, my daughter was a matter of weeks old
:24:08. > :24:11.when it happened and she has probably heard the word Hillsborough
:24:12. > :24:16.in some guise or another for 27 years. Do you ever go a day without
:24:17. > :24:20.thinking about it? No, and that is not because we are particularly
:24:21. > :24:24.overly melancholy all we have no desire to move on, which has been
:24:25. > :24:28.the common perception, it's just because we haven't had an
:24:29. > :24:34.opportunity to move on, so therefore we have always still been there. As
:24:35. > :24:36.a family and as a wider group of families, we've always had to be
:24:37. > :24:48.thinking about what we're going to do next. Claim, you were a GP at the
:24:49. > :24:54.time? -- Glynn. You tried to help? Yes, myself and my younger brother
:24:55. > :24:58.and two friends, we were in Pen three as the crush developed. We
:24:59. > :25:03.were fortunate enough to be able to escape to Pen two, by which time
:25:04. > :25:12.people were being lifted over the fences onto the pitch in a state of
:25:13. > :25:19.severe stress or injury and I made my way to try and assist and the
:25:20. > :25:23.first person I came across was a 19-year-old boy in a state of
:25:24. > :25:29.pulmonary arrest. I spent an amount of time with others resisting doing
:25:30. > :25:33.CPR, hard to tell how long, and we managed to get his hard going again.
:25:34. > :25:36.We ventilated him and got him into an ambulance and then I went to see
:25:37. > :25:42.if there was anyone else I could help but by then there wasn't. When
:25:43. > :25:47.it was all happening, how quickly could you tell it had gone from
:25:48. > :25:55.uncomfortable to fatal? Was it just a matter of seconds? No, it was
:25:56. > :25:58.minutes. The crush just gradually increased and increased. I'd been
:25:59. > :26:04.asked this before, how I would describe it. I've been going to the
:26:05. > :26:09.Kop at Anfield since I was 12, been to some of the biggest games you
:26:10. > :26:12.could imagine. In many ways we loved the atmosphere. This was completely
:26:13. > :26:15.different on an abnormal and sinister scale. One of the things
:26:16. > :26:19.people have learnt today, people who perhaps have not followed it as
:26:20. > :26:24.closely as you have, is that the emergency services did not perform
:26:25. > :26:27.well. That was your experience? There was no organised response at
:26:28. > :26:36.all, it was absolutely nightmarish chaos on that pitch. There was no
:26:37. > :26:38.leadership at all. Does it feel today for each of you like an
:26:39. > :26:44.enormous weight is off your shoulders? Yes, it does. It is
:26:45. > :26:49.indescribable. I was going to say it's early days but it's the same
:26:50. > :26:55.day. It is really, really difficult to explain what this means for the
:26:56. > :26:59.rest of our lives really. It's a massive turning point and it's an
:27:00. > :27:09.opportunity to put down years of duty, really. Because you can't just
:27:10. > :27:11.turn your back... Which is more important, the unlawful death
:27:12. > :27:19.verdict or the exoneration of the victims? For me, they have gone
:27:20. > :27:25.hand-in-hand. I can't choose between the two. We had this, station before
:27:26. > :27:29.and I just think if we had got one without the other, it would have
:27:30. > :27:36.been a massive blow. With the two together, it's just wonderful. A big
:27:37. > :27:39.day for you? Yes but primarily it is a day for the families. This is the
:27:40. > :27:44.justice they have deserved for many years. It also affects all Liverpool
:27:45. > :27:49.fans and the people of Liverpool. Those two points are important. They
:27:50. > :27:52.are at different ends of the spectrum, the unlawful killing was
:27:53. > :27:55.the massive one but I think it had been devalued -- it would have been
:27:56. > :27:57.devalued if any blame had been apportioned to the fans will stop
:27:58. > :28:06.what happened to the boy you help? What happened to the boy you help? I
:28:07. > :28:09.lost contact with him that they can he was put in an ambulance and I
:28:10. > :28:14.spent the next year almost believing that he had died. I went looking for
:28:15. > :28:22.him a week later in Sheffield hospital. I discovered when I was
:28:23. > :28:27.helping the police the next year that he had actually survived. He
:28:28. > :28:32.did not survive unscathed, he suffered brain damage, but he did
:28:33. > :28:37.survive. It has affected his life, he's never been able to work, he is
:28:38. > :28:42.on constant medication, but his family are grateful that he survived
:28:43. > :28:46.and that has been the best thing for me, that he did survive. Has the
:28:47. > :28:51.experience changed you as a doctor? I don't think it really did but it's
:28:52. > :28:59.difficult to say. Working in Scotland I was detached from it in
:29:00. > :29:04.many ways. Being a GP, you're like a foot soldier, in the NHS, you just
:29:05. > :29:09.get on with it. Maybe it did change the but I don't think it affected
:29:10. > :29:14.the way I worked. It made me very, very sensitive to the criticism that
:29:15. > :29:18.people of Liverpool have faced over the years and that for me is a big
:29:19. > :29:23.weight off my shoulders today, the fact that I don't have too defend
:29:24. > :29:30.Liverpool fans any more, the verdicts have done that for us. Yes,
:29:31. > :29:32.it is a big moment. It is huge. Is this the end, are you waiting for
:29:33. > :29:43.another phase, can you move on? There will be another phase but the
:29:44. > :29:47.families will take from this, the opportunity to move on and whatever
:29:48. > :29:59.follows, will be at best, a bonus. Thank you both the coming out
:30:00. > :30:05.tonight. It has been for many years for Liverpool to defend its
:30:06. > :30:10.reputation. It has gained a lot of solidarity and unity. And perhaps it
:30:11. > :30:12.can at least enjoyed some pride in its complete vindication. James,
:30:13. > :30:15.back to you in the studio. Today saw the first all-out strike
:30:16. > :30:20.by junior doctors in England At its heart lies a new contract
:30:21. > :30:25.that the Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt, from whom we will hear
:30:26. > :30:27.shortly, remains determined to impose but which the British
:30:28. > :30:29.Medical Association insists Newsnight's Chris Cook has been
:30:30. > :30:35.examining how this almighty impasse was reached and assessing
:30:36. > :30:37.the likelihood of it Today, junior doctors
:30:38. > :30:47.in England did something they have never done before,
:30:48. > :30:50.they withdrew from offering even emergency care, leaving patients
:30:51. > :30:54.to more senior doctors. The culmination of a long dispute
:30:55. > :30:57.about a new contract It is a contract that
:30:58. > :31:03.disadvantages women, it is a contract that is trying
:31:04. > :31:06.to spread our services too thin. We are already struggling,
:31:07. > :31:08.we are already stretched and they are trying to spread that
:31:09. > :31:11.even further and that's Doctors were keen to knock down
:31:12. > :31:16.the idea that this British Medical Association strike
:31:17. > :31:19.was, itself, unsafe. Normally on our wards
:31:20. > :31:24.during the weekends, bank holidays, we manage to cover with one junior
:31:25. > :31:26.doctor on the ward. Today, on my ward there
:31:27. > :31:28.is four consultants. So, what are the points
:31:29. > :31:32.of difference between the British Medical Association
:31:33. > :31:34.behind me here, and the government? The first one, the
:31:35. > :31:36.biggest is imposition. It is the fact the government has
:31:37. > :31:39.gone ahead with this contract Now the reason they've done
:31:40. > :31:45.that is talks broke down. The government judged there was no
:31:46. > :31:49.point continuing to negotiate. That's because on issues such as how
:31:50. > :31:52.much doctors should get paid at the weekends and,
:31:53. > :31:56.what happens when hospitals give doctors too many hours to work,
:31:57. > :31:58.the two sides couldn't These are the hours
:31:59. > :32:07.when you don't get overtime. Now, the imposed contract would make
:32:08. > :32:13.overtime begin later in the evening on weekdays,
:32:14. > :32:18.but here is the killer - the contract means Saturday daytime
:32:19. > :32:20.will come without any Now, normal pay rates
:32:21. > :32:24.would actually rise, but the contract normalises
:32:25. > :32:27.Saturday working. The government says this is part
:32:28. > :32:30.of its plan for a seven-day NHS. They said junior doctors need
:32:31. > :32:33.to work more at weekends. I was a junior doctor,
:32:34. > :32:38.we always find we are working at weekends and nights,
:32:39. > :32:41.the times when ministers aren't and Parliament doesn't sit,
:32:42. > :32:45.but the NHS is there for patients. So will the BMA
:32:46. > :32:48.strategy actually work? Downing Street and the Department
:32:49. > :32:51.of Health don't seem to be The BMA doesn't have a clear game
:32:52. > :32:59.plan, if you like, for victory. But by extending the dispute
:33:00. > :33:01.they hope it will First of all, there's a chance
:33:02. > :33:06.something might just come up. For example, they could get
:33:07. > :33:08.a new Health Secretary or Prime Minister, who might be
:33:09. > :33:13.willing to compromise a bit more. Second, they hope with protests
:33:14. > :33:16.like this they will be able to pile pressure on the government
:33:17. > :33:18.so they might eventually change their mind about
:33:19. > :33:24.the contract imposition. They point out, it's going to be
:33:25. > :33:26.different but to do other things
:33:27. > :33:29.while this is going on. For example, they want
:33:30. > :33:31.to renegotiate the There is no chance a BMA insider
:33:32. > :33:39.says, of that happening Do you expect there to be further
:33:40. > :33:44.strikes after this week? You expect me to say,
:33:45. > :33:46.and I'm going to say, We will see how it goes,
:33:47. > :33:53.review what is happening. Where we think the dispute
:33:54. > :33:56.is going and frankly, I do hope, still live in hope,
:33:57. > :33:59.that by tomorrow morning the government will say,
:34:00. > :34:02.OK, we realise now it was a bad idea If they do that, we will withdraw
:34:03. > :34:06.the industrial action immediately. Labour's leadership joined the march
:34:07. > :34:11.today, but will that help the BMA? Do you think Labour
:34:12. > :34:13.support makes it harder No, I think what we are seeing
:34:14. > :34:17.is the whole community I am hoping Jeremy Hunt recognises
:34:18. > :34:23.now is the time to get back around You don't worry it will become
:34:24. > :34:26.too politically poison? No, the whole community now is
:34:27. > :34:29.urging for a negotiating settlement. We are part of that community
:34:30. > :34:32.and we reflect, as others, the breadth of support that there
:34:33. > :34:38.is for a negotiated settlement. There's another strike
:34:39. > :34:49.tomorrow, more may follow. Perhaps longer ones
:34:50. > :34:51.or even indefinite ones. No resolution is now possible
:34:52. > :34:54.without one or both sides in this Earlier today, I spoke
:34:55. > :34:57.to the Secretary of State for Health, Jeremy Hunt,
:34:58. > :34:59.and began by asking him whether he still subscribed
:35:00. > :35:01.to his previously expressed view that doctors were only striking
:35:02. > :35:04.because they lack the wit to properly understand the deal
:35:05. > :35:10.he has offered to them. The problem we had is that the BMA
:35:11. > :35:16.were not prepared to sit around and discuss this
:35:17. > :35:29.in a reasonable way. So you are saying. Does don't have
:35:30. > :35:31.the wit to understand the offer you are making them?
:35:32. > :35:34.No, I think many doctors don't actually understand the contents
:35:35. > :35:37.of the new contract and nor do they understand how hard
:35:38. > :35:39.the government has worked to try and reach an accommodation.
:35:40. > :35:44.We have actually had 75 meetings over the three-year period.
:35:45. > :35:46.We have looked at the number of concessions we made.
:35:47. > :35:49.I will just say this, I think the reasonable
:35:50. > :35:52.approach for a union, when a government is trying
:35:53. > :35:54.to implement a manifesto commitment, is to sit down and talk.
:35:55. > :35:58.Because this is something that will make the NHS safer and better.
:35:59. > :36:00.So the manifesto commitment was to the principle of a seven-day
:36:01. > :36:04.The detail is interesting, you mention doctors may not have
:36:05. > :36:07.read the contract, I have been in touch with a few who have, all 80
:36:08. > :36:11.We know it positively discriminate against women,
:36:12. > :36:15.That's contained within the rubric of the contract itself,
:36:16. > :36:17.it is a concession from your own department.
:36:18. > :36:20.We know that under the terms of the new rota, you can finish
:36:21. > :36:24.a shift at 1am or 2am in the morning and yet be expected to start your
:36:25. > :36:26.next one at five o'clock the following afternoon.
:36:27. > :36:28.Quite how that allows work, family balance or indeed travel
:36:29. > :36:31.to and from hospital, is open to some speculation.
:36:32. > :36:34.We also know there is no mandate, if you are doing too many hours,
:36:35. > :36:36.for your supervisor to report it to the hospital guardian.
:36:37. > :36:39.So again, it would seem the doctors may understand the terms of this
:36:40. > :36:42.contract rather better than you are giving them credit for?
:36:43. > :36:45.Interesting, because all the things you've just mentioned are areas
:36:46. > :36:49.where we actually reached agreement with the BMA when we had
:36:50. > :36:56.So the aspects of the contract was always safety.
:36:57. > :36:58.Everything I just said is contained within
:36:59. > :37:06.And what the current contract is, 90% of it was agreed with the BMA
:37:07. > :37:10.when I lifted the imposition of the contract in December
:37:11. > :37:13.to see if we could allow space for negotiations.
:37:14. > :37:17.The two outstanding areas of disagreement were to do
:37:18. > :37:21.with the Saturday pay rates and another aspect of
:37:22. > :37:36.But if you look at Saturday pay, what we are offering doctors is more
:37:37. > :37:38.premium pay for people who work regularly at weekends.
:37:39. > :37:40.More than nurses, paramedics, health care assistants,
:37:41. > :37:42.to work in their own operating theatres, more incidentally
:37:43. > :37:49.So I think on that basis, withdrawing emergency care
:37:50. > :37:52.for patients who depend on you is a very
:37:53. > :38:02.Doctors are heading across the borders into Scotland,
:38:03. > :38:04.Wales and Ireland to take up jobs that won't be subject
:38:05. > :38:08.And the general feeling among the junior and senior doctors,
:38:09. > :38:11.most of whom are in support of the strike in this country,
:38:12. > :38:13.is that their profession is being denuded and denigrated,
:38:14. > :38:16.so why not just meet the costs if that really is the only
:38:17. > :38:20.Let's look at the money we are putting into the NHS.
:38:21. > :38:22.This year we are putting an extra 3.5...
:38:23. > :38:25.With respect, that's not an answer to the question I am asking?
:38:26. > :38:28.It is a direct answer, you said why not meet the costs?
:38:29. > :38:32.Will you continue to pay them as they currently are?
:38:33. > :38:33.If you let me answer the question.
:38:34. > :38:37.We are putting in an extra ?3.8 billion into the NHS this year.
:38:38. > :38:40.This government is passionate about the NHS and what it stands
:38:41. > :38:43.for and in this year it will be getting the sixth-biggest increase
:38:44. > :38:47.And part of that additional money is to pay for the costs,
:38:48. > :38:51.But we also know from the mistakes, frankly of previous governments,
:38:52. > :38:55.that with that increase in resources you need to have a change in working
:38:56. > :38:58.practices if we are going to be able to offer patients that same
:38:59. > :39:01.high-quality care every day of the weekend.
:39:02. > :39:05.What we are saying is in order for hospitals to be able to roster
:39:06. > :39:08.more people at weekends, we need to bring down the premiums
:39:09. > :39:13.It's still more generous than pretty much anywhere else
:39:14. > :39:18.But we'll make sure no doctor is out of pocket by putting
:39:19. > :39:24.But you know the anti-social banding hours make up around 30 to 50%
:39:25. > :39:27.of many doctors' pay at the moment, so a 13% increase in basic pay
:39:28. > :39:32.Again, that is miss-information because they are not going to get no
:39:33. > :39:40.You have lots of small issues, but then you have the issues
:39:41. > :39:45.of substance and the BMA's own words were that the only two
:39:46. > :39:50.People will say, if it is an argument about weekend pay,
:39:51. > :39:54.for a professional withdrawing emergency care, is a step too far.
:39:55. > :39:57.You must be unhappy about how personal this has become
:39:58. > :40:00.and the fact that many doctors feel that if the impasse is to be
:40:01. > :40:02.breached, it would not be achievable on your watch.
:40:03. > :40:05.Is that what you were subconsciously referring to this morning
:40:06. > :40:08.when you said this would be your last big job in politics?
:40:09. > :40:13.What I have always said is I would like to do this job
:40:14. > :40:24.for five years, I want to be the Secretary of State who learns
:40:25. > :40:28.the lessons from Mid Staffs and sets the NHS on a path to be the safest,
:40:29. > :40:30.highest quality health care system in the world.
:40:31. > :40:32.Secretary of State, thank you very much.
:40:33. > :40:38.I should explain it wasn't my idea to conduct that interview with is
:40:39. > :40:44.both standing up, it was Jeremy Hunt's. This newspaper leads with
:40:45. > :40:56.the story of David Cameron and his aides employing WhatsApp to keep an
:40:57. > :41:00.EU secrets secret. The Times makes no mention of Hillsborough and Leeds
:41:01. > :41:05.instead with more reaction to the collapse of British home stores. The
:41:06. > :41:12.Daily Mirror bash families of Hillsborough victims have had 27
:41:13. > :41:17.years of sleepless nights now it is time for those guilty of criminal
:41:18. > :41:23.negligence have theirs. The Guardian, after 25 years, justice.
:41:24. > :41:32.The Telegraph leads with the simple headline, justice. That is it. We
:41:33. > :41:34.return to St George 's Hall in Liverpool and let supporters of
:41:35. > :41:43.Liverpool Football Club have the last word. Good night.
:41:44. > :42:28.It is going to be a cold start to the day on Wednesday with a
:42:29. > :42:30.widespread frost. But there