:00:10. > :00:14.I accept and understand that the words are used caused upset and hurt
:00:15. > :00:19.to the Jewish community, and I deeply regret that. Anti-Semitism is
:00:20. > :00:27.racism, full stop. less than four hours
:00:28. > :00:31.after saying sorry. Labour is struggling to deal
:00:32. > :00:37.with the charge that it has Liverpool commemorates the loss
:00:38. > :00:46.of life at Hillsborough. South Yorkshire's chief
:00:47. > :00:54.constable is out. Where has trust in the police gone,
:00:55. > :00:57.and how do they get it back? And, the effects
:00:58. > :00:59.of a President Trump? Candidate Trump has given his first,
:01:00. > :01:12.serious foreign policy speech: My foreign policy will always put
:01:13. > :01:16.the interests of the American people and American security above all
:01:17. > :01:23.else. It has to be first. It has to be.
:01:24. > :01:28.A promising young Labour MP, Naz Shah, suspended from the party
:01:29. > :01:35.for comments she put on social media about Israel.
:01:36. > :01:43.In some, she gleefully suggested the solution to the Israel-Palestine
:01:44. > :01:45.problem was for Israel to be moved into the United States.
:01:46. > :01:47.She apologised for those and other remarks today,
:01:48. > :01:51.it seemed that was enough to satisfy Jeremy Corbyn.
:01:52. > :01:56.and the eventual decision to suspend her,
:01:57. > :01:59.are a sign of Labour's sensitivity to the charge
:02:00. > :02:03.An accusation that has been gathering traction in recent weeks.
:02:04. > :02:17.Fighting for equality and fairness and justice. Not only here, just
:02:18. > :02:24.inbred food, but across the world, and in particular, for Palestine and
:02:25. > :02:27.Kashmir. VOICEOVER: Less than one year ago, Naz Shah set out her pitch
:02:28. > :02:30.on election night, it is comments she made about Israel and the
:02:31. > :02:35.Palestinians before being elected that have today seen her suspended
:02:36. > :02:39.from Labour. The Jewish are rallying, she wrote in one Post, she
:02:40. > :02:43.likened Israel to Nazi Germany, in another, and suggested the implied
:02:44. > :02:50.transportation of Israelis Jewish to America. How offensive are these
:02:51. > :02:53.comments? Newsnight spotted one of the same posts in the comments left
:02:54. > :02:59.by the public on the page of another Labour MP. That was two years ago.
:03:00. > :03:07.When we pointed out to miss mood, it was deleted almost immediately. --
:03:08. > :03:10.Miss Mahmood. Yesterday, Naz Shah, who had posted the comment herself,
:03:11. > :03:14.resigned as aide to John Madonna, he had made a point of how
:03:15. > :03:18.anti-Semitism should be treated by the Labour Party. If people have
:03:19. > :03:22.express those views, there is no role for them in the party, I would
:03:23. > :03:25.like them out for life. Spike meeting Jeremy Corbyn this morning,
:03:26. > :03:29.Naz Shah had not been suspended from the party, instead, Jeremy Corbyn
:03:30. > :03:34.issued a statement, appearing to draw a line under the matter. What
:03:35. > :03:35.Naz Shah did was offensive and unacceptable, I have spoken with her
:03:36. > :03:48.and made this clear... Not good enough for the Shadow
:03:49. > :03:51.Cabinet minister. -- this. We have a policy in the Labour Party that
:03:52. > :03:56.people who make anti-Semitic remarks are suspended and an investigation
:03:57. > :03:58.is carried out, I have made clear to the leader 's office my view that
:03:59. > :04:03.this policy should be followed without exception. All of this
:04:04. > :04:07.allowing David Cameron to pile on the pressure at prime ministers
:04:08. > :04:10.questions today. The fact that frankly we have a Labour member of
:04:11. > :04:14.Parliament with the Labour whip who made remarks about the
:04:15. > :04:19.transportation of people from Israel to America, and talked about a
:04:20. > :04:22.solution, and is still in receipt of the Labour whip is quite
:04:23. > :04:28.extraordinary. Naz Shah later apologised. I accept and understand
:04:29. > :04:33.that the words are used caused upset, and hurt, to the Jewish
:04:34. > :04:39.community, and I deeply regret that. Then, another twist. Labour
:04:40. > :04:41.announced that she would be suspended, and investigated, after
:04:42. > :04:45.all. The honourable lady has spoken... The problem is that the
:04:46. > :04:48.Labour leadership are facing in terms of allegations of
:04:49. > :04:52.anti-Semitism do not just boil down to a lack of decisiveness, it is
:04:53. > :04:56.more than that, Labour MPs say that it is about their leader, Jeremy
:04:57. > :04:57.Corbyn, and whether he has the sincerity to really tackle this as
:04:58. > :05:03.an issue. This leader of a Blairite group
:05:04. > :05:08.inside Labour says that the party has a problem, and the leadership is
:05:09. > :05:12.too hesitant. I love the Labour Party and it does great things but
:05:13. > :05:16.there is sadly a problem and too many instances through to former
:05:17. > :05:20.candidates, chairs of parties, although way through now, where
:05:21. > :05:23.people think that it is acceptable to say these things and what has
:05:24. > :05:27.been sad is the response has not been what we should have expected
:05:28. > :05:31.and quite frankly it has not been the response that it would have been
:05:32. > :05:34.of any other racism. Over the past few months, a number of Labour
:05:35. > :05:40.councillors have been suspended over what appears to be anti-Semitic
:05:41. > :05:41.results, -- remarks. The chair of the University Labour club has
:05:42. > :05:55.stepped down, his reasoning: the Labour Party is increasingly
:05:56. > :05:59.feeling like somewhere that is not a natural home for Jewish people in
:06:00. > :06:02.the UK, what troubles me is that Jeremy Corbyn, as leader of the
:06:03. > :06:08.party, has not adequately dealt with these problems. This Labour MP
:06:09. > :06:11.thinks that the comments by Naz Shah are the latest to cross the line
:06:12. > :06:17.from acceptable criticism of Israel, which is not anti-Semitic, into
:06:18. > :06:21.something more troubling. Criticism of Israel is personally justified,
:06:22. > :06:25.like any other country can be criticised, I have done a good deal
:06:26. > :06:31.of criticism of it myself, is ready policies. The way in which she put
:06:32. > :06:34.forward her remarks, the outburst, given the history of the Jewish
:06:35. > :06:40.people, it is totally unacceptable. She has apologised and says she
:06:41. > :06:44.understands the harm and the hurt that has been done as a result of
:06:45. > :06:48.these remarks. Newsnight has learned that Labour is now working on a
:06:49. > :06:53.proactive package on anti-Semitism, including news new ways for Jewish
:06:54. > :06:58.Mahmut Ozen become more actively involved in the party. That might be
:06:59. > :07:01.easier said than done. One backbench Labour MP has told the programme
:07:02. > :07:09.that they are worried that a tsunami of anti-Semitism has been joined up
:07:10. > :07:14.-- has joined up, emboldened by Jeremy Corbyn's past associations
:07:15. > :07:22.with people who are anti-Semitic and critical of Israel.
:07:23. > :07:26.A lot of questions are being asked about Labour, and there is a debate
:07:27. > :07:29.among those in the Jewish community as to how serious it is.
:07:30. > :07:31.I'm joined by two prominent members of that community now.
:07:32. > :07:34.From Tel Aviv, Lord Levy, the Labour Peer and former Chief
:07:35. > :07:40.and in the studio with me, Rabbi and Baroness Julia Neuberger.
:07:41. > :07:46.Does Labour have a problem with anti-Semitism? Yes, in a word, that
:07:47. > :07:50.is not to say that other parties have not had problems, or that it is
:07:51. > :07:53.not elsewhere, but Labour has a particular problem, a particular
:07:54. > :08:00.problem at the moment, this Naz Shah case illustrates that, and more than
:08:01. > :08:04.anything else, the Oxford University Labour club. You are a crossbench
:08:05. > :08:09.peer. You are not a member of Labour. I was a Lib Dem peer, I have
:08:10. > :08:12.been a crossbench peer the five-year is, I was brought up in the Labour
:08:13. > :08:17.Party, true, my parents would be turning in their graves. Lord Levy,
:08:18. > :08:23.how serious a problem do you think that Labour has in this regard?
:08:24. > :08:27.Well, unfortunately, I have to say that I think that it is a serious
:08:28. > :08:34.problem. The lack of sensitivity when a member of Parliament talks
:08:35. > :08:43.about transportation of the largest Jewish community in the world... I
:08:44. > :08:48.think it just shows such ignorance. The comments, the Twitter posts that
:08:49. > :08:56.she made an Adolf Hitler... I begin to scratch my head in despair as to
:08:57. > :09:01.how people like this can enter our Parliament with such a lack of
:09:02. > :09:08.knowledge, discretion, such a lack of sensitivity. Julia just said that
:09:09. > :09:11.she does not believe that this is restricted to the Labour Party comic
:09:12. > :09:18.yes, the Labour Party is coming under a microscope at the moment. --
:09:19. > :09:23.Julia just said she did not believe that this is restricted to the
:09:24. > :09:27.Labour Party, yes. Every party needs to put anti-Semitism on their agenda
:09:28. > :09:32.and make sure that it is eradicated, that there is zero tolerance of
:09:33. > :09:36.anti-Semitism right across the political spectrum. I'm not quite
:09:37. > :09:40.clear, are you saying Labour has a worse problem than other parties or
:09:41. > :09:46.that all parties are equally bad in this regard? You heard what Julia
:09:47. > :09:49.had said, when she was a member of the Liberal Democrats, she knows
:09:50. > :09:54.what some of the members of that party have said. When I went into
:09:55. > :09:59.the House of Lords, as I have said before, I was told that those on the
:10:00. > :10:06.Tory benches said, who is the Jewish lad brought into the house now?
:10:07. > :10:11.There are definite issues of anti-Semitism across the political
:10:12. > :10:14.spectrum. At this moment in time, I have to say it seems more prominent
:10:15. > :10:19.within the Labour Party, and it is absolutely crucial that the
:10:20. > :10:30.leadership of the party stamp this out. And for once and for all, and
:10:31. > :10:35.our system needs to deal with it, because there can be criticism of
:10:36. > :10:39.the state of Israel but anti-Semitism, using the word
:10:40. > :10:43.Zionist as another form of anti-Semitism, frankly that can no
:10:44. > :10:48.longer be tolerated. How specific do you think it is to Labour? Do you
:10:49. > :10:53.agree with Lord Levy? At the moment it is much more specific to Labour,
:10:54. > :11:02.it is attached to the Jeremy Corbyn becoming leader, and therefore,
:11:03. > :11:06.old... For those of us old enough to remember Militant, it existed there,
:11:07. > :11:09.it is an issue with the hard left and in particular a criticism of
:11:10. > :11:12.Israel, and I suspect that peoples whose views would not have been
:11:13. > :11:17.acceptable in the Labour Party have rejoined or they have joined, and I
:11:18. > :11:21.think we have seen that. In a way it is a problem of the left, what you
:11:22. > :11:27.might call the hard left, they have a much harder line on Israel, the
:11:28. > :11:31.state of Israel, and Palestine. Specifically, yes, at the moment,
:11:32. > :11:35.that is where it comes, also seems to be the case with student
:11:36. > :11:45.politics, and this awful use of... Have you seen this?... The use of
:11:46. > :11:51.zio zio as a term of abuse, to Jewish students. It is easy to band
:11:52. > :11:55.about these claims. You just disagree with them, easy insult,
:11:56. > :11:59.does that happen? Of course, and it has happened on many occasions, I
:12:00. > :12:03.ought to lay on the line, this is the first time I have gone seriously
:12:04. > :12:07.public saying that there is a real problem of anti-Semitism, I have
:12:08. > :12:10.often said when people have cried anti-Semitism, you know what, I am
:12:11. > :12:16.not sure... But this time I'm absolutely sure, it is a concerted
:12:17. > :12:21.thing, lots of different places at the same time. Let's talk about how
:12:22. > :12:24.the party is dealing with it, Lord Levy, do you think that Jeremy
:12:25. > :12:31.Corbyn, the senior party officials, have taken this problem seriously
:12:32. > :12:38.enough, for your satisfaction? I think that it has taken too long for
:12:39. > :12:44.them to have taken this action. Somehow, they just at the beginning,
:12:45. > :12:48.there has been talk of a statement being changed. One statement made,
:12:49. > :12:56.and then action taken thereafter. I think that this must be dealt with
:12:57. > :13:00.in almost eight proactive way, so that members of the party, and
:13:01. > :13:08.anyone associated with the Labour Party coming out with this sort of
:13:09. > :13:15.anti-Semitic verbiage, it cannot be tolerated. But you know, Julia just
:13:16. > :13:18.said, about her position on anti-Semitism, I have always taken
:13:19. > :13:24.that you, I had my office in the Foreign Office, the Foreign Office,
:13:25. > :13:27.-- Foreign Commonwealth Office, for ten years, I never thought that
:13:28. > :13:30.there were anti-Semitic people in the cupboard, but we must look at
:13:31. > :13:34.this very carefully, with great respect to Julia, if we just look at
:13:35. > :13:38.the situation and say that it is from the left and not on the far
:13:39. > :13:42.right as well, then I think that is being somewhat naive. Every party
:13:43. > :13:48.needs to look very carefully in their cupboards as to what is going
:13:49. > :13:56.on on anti-Semitism at the moment. You know, it is very difficult...
:13:57. > :14:00.For a very small community in our country. We need to work closely
:14:01. > :14:04.with the Muslim community, we need to work closely with all
:14:05. > :14:07.communities, there needs to be an understanding of what our
:14:08. > :14:11.differences are, there needs to be an understanding of what is going on
:14:12. > :14:14.in the Middle East. There needs to be an education process as to what
:14:15. > :14:21.is happening. I think that is crucial. Thank you very much. Last
:14:22. > :14:25.one, there will be people watching, they say that this gets used as a
:14:26. > :14:27.cover to close down discussion, legitimate discussion, about the
:14:28. > :14:33.state of Israel and its policies, how does Jeremy Corbyn, who feel
:14:34. > :14:40.strongly on that issue, how does he steer the line between eradicating
:14:41. > :14:45.anti-Semitism but opening the discussion to Israel? It has to be
:14:46. > :14:48.legitimate to criticise Israel, as it is possible to criticise any
:14:49. > :14:53.other country but look at the way language is used, when the word
:14:54. > :14:57.Zionist is used, instead of the word Jewish, and you began to talk about
:14:58. > :15:01.conspiracies, that is not about Israel, that is about Jewish people,
:15:02. > :15:06.that is when you have two pick it up and run with it. Quite a lot of
:15:07. > :15:10.criticism of Israel is also anti-Semitic, I must say, but there
:15:11. > :15:14.is a particular strand going on at the moment. -- have to. That is why
:15:15. > :15:19.I disagree with Michael, there is anti-Semitism on the right, in the
:15:20. > :15:22.middle, and on the left. This particular anti-Semitism that is
:15:23. > :15:27.going on at the moment is a conflation of using the word Zionist
:15:28. > :15:31.to mean Jewish, to begin talking about some kind of Zionist
:15:32. > :15:34.conspiracy, which is loyal, and in praise of Hitler... That really is
:15:35. > :15:39.very shocking! Naz Shah was not the only high
:15:40. > :15:42.profile suspension today. The chief constable
:15:43. > :15:46.of South Yorkshire Richard Crompton was cast aside by the Police
:15:47. > :15:48.and Crime Commissioner there in the wake of
:15:49. > :15:50.the Hillsborough inquest verdict. Because trust in the police
:15:51. > :15:53.force was fading, It came shortly before
:15:54. > :15:57.the commemoration in Huge crowds at St George's Square,
:15:58. > :16:14.it was an emotional occasion. When we were sitting in that court
:16:15. > :16:24.these past two tears and listening to the same lies to blame our fans,
:16:25. > :16:26.the system itself, the police force of South Yorkshire to be ashamed of
:16:27. > :16:31.themselves and hang their heads. it was perhaps important to be seen
:16:32. > :16:35.to act ahead of this. Now the police were
:16:36. > :16:36.still the subject of public anger at the fact
:16:37. > :16:39.that the Hillsborough inquest had taken two years, which was
:16:40. > :16:41.blamed on the police Andy Burnham made the point
:16:42. > :16:46.on our programme last night, and expanded on it
:16:47. > :16:55.in the commons today. Mr Speaker let me be clear, I don't
:16:56. > :17:00.blame the orderly police officers, the men and women who did their very
:17:01. > :17:05.best on that day and who today are out there keeping our streets safe.
:17:06. > :17:11.But I do blame their leadership and culture which seems rotten to the
:17:12. > :17:13.core. How much more evidence do we need before we act?
:17:14. > :17:16.South Yorkshire may have had more than its fair share of problems,
:17:17. > :17:18.but the police nationally have faced criticism after criticism -
:17:19. > :17:21.where do you start in listing all the problems, from Jean Charles
:17:22. > :17:23.de Menezes to the original hacking investigation to Operation Midland.
:17:24. > :17:25.I'm joined by the former Minister for policing,
:17:26. > :17:28.Damian Green, and from Liverpool by Elkan Abrahamson,
:17:29. > :17:29.lead solicitor for 20 of the families involved
:17:30. > :17:46.It's been quite a day, or two days for those families, how much
:17:47. > :17:50.difference do you think that the Chief Constable makes? Will this
:17:51. > :17:56.suspension solve the problems of South Yorkshire Police? I don't
:17:57. > :18:01.think it will, it's a welcome first step and we hope it will be followed
:18:02. > :18:05.not by scapegoating him but by examining his conduct whether it
:18:06. > :18:09.amounts to misconduct and what steps should be taken. But also by
:18:10. > :18:13.examining the culture of the force and considering if special measures
:18:14. > :18:17.should be taken to ensure South Yorkshire Police adopt a more
:18:18. > :18:22.ethical policy of conducting the way they do their business. At heart
:18:23. > :18:26.what do you think because of the problem is, is it a culture problem
:18:27. > :18:30.at the heart of the police in your view? I think there is a culture
:18:31. > :18:36.problem in any large organisation whether it be the police, the army
:18:37. > :18:40.or private companies. We see again and again the reluctance of people
:18:41. > :18:45.at the top these organisations to admit to their faults, whether those
:18:46. > :18:49.are criminal or otherwise. We also see again and again that those
:18:50. > :18:53.companies that do accept their responsibility when they do
:18:54. > :18:57.something wrong are the quickest to change the culture within their
:18:58. > :19:01.organisation. And encourage those lower down in the company to act
:19:02. > :19:07.ethically. I think that is the main problem with the police but as I
:19:08. > :19:11.say, not just the police. Damian Green, did you find when you were
:19:12. > :19:15.responsible for the police a particular resistance to recognising
:19:16. > :19:21.when they had got something wrong, trying instead to cover it up and be
:19:22. > :19:25.defensive? They were defensive but I agree that many other organisations
:19:26. > :19:29.are defensive as well and we should not forget that confidence in the
:19:30. > :19:39.police is quite high. Compare to other institutions. Is it? Yell yes.
:19:40. > :19:46.Clearly it is not in Liverpool for reasons which are terribly obvious
:19:47. > :19:50.but puttable do still have a high level of trust in the police. What
:19:51. > :20:02.has happened and one of the reasons the police are better than they used
:20:03. > :20:05.to be, you now have someone who can hold the police to account,
:20:06. > :20:08.introducing things like the College of policing to improve
:20:09. > :20:11.professionalism, all of that is good and make things better but I
:20:12. > :20:15.absolutely agree that one thing you can do, but in the long and much
:20:16. > :20:22.more deeply what you need to do is change the culture. But why is the
:20:23. > :20:27.culture so hard, so resistance to change in the police? It does seem
:20:28. > :20:30.very difficult to get mistakes properly analysed like they would in
:20:31. > :20:37.the aviation industry for example, how do you get that culture into the
:20:38. > :20:40.police? Some of it, we as citizens expect the police to do difficult
:20:41. > :20:45.and dangerous things every day and to get them to do that they need to
:20:46. > :20:53.develop a huge esprit de corps, the act collectively. At the margin that
:20:54. > :20:57.can go over into it is us against the world, we will defend each other
:20:58. > :21:02.whatever. Trying to create a culture of whistle-blowing in that kind of
:21:03. > :21:06.institution is very difficult. Elkan, some people have called for
:21:07. > :21:10.the disbanding of South Yorkshire Police and the police and crime
:21:11. > :21:13.commission said he did not know what that would mean because you cannot
:21:14. > :21:18.cause the police down in South Yorkshire. What do people mean when
:21:19. > :21:24.they say we should disband it and would that make sense as a solution
:21:25. > :21:28.to the culture problem you have spoken about? It would be possible
:21:29. > :21:32.in theory to merge two forces but whether that would be a solution or
:21:33. > :21:36.not is impossible to say at this stage. What I am asking the Home
:21:37. > :21:39.Secretary to consider is special measures which would require an
:21:40. > :21:44.examination as to whether there are special steps which need to be taken
:21:45. > :21:48.because there is not enough legitimacy responsibility at the
:21:49. > :21:51.top. I don't know if that is definitely the case or not but
:21:52. > :21:57.perhaps an enquiry by the Home Office would reveal that. And can I
:21:58. > :22:03.just pick up the point about the problem the police have with, to use
:22:04. > :22:08.the phrase esprit de corps, it's right that the more difficult and
:22:09. > :22:11.dangerous the job the more an organisation has two encourage its
:22:12. > :22:16.members to protect themselves but that should not become what may. We
:22:17. > :22:21.need people to understand the ethics that they should adopt wherever they
:22:22. > :22:25.are. Police forces have a code of ethics and have had for several
:22:26. > :22:29.years and it need to be at every level so people accept that
:22:30. > :22:34.responsibility. Last one for you Damian, to the police make more
:22:35. > :22:39.mistakes than they should? A large organisation will make a lot of
:22:40. > :22:44.mistakes, statistically... It is more than 100,000 people doing a
:22:45. > :22:47.very difficult job. It is just that a lot of what they do is so
:22:48. > :22:53.sensitive that when they make mistakes terrible things can happen,
:22:54. > :22:57.as happened there. I agree about the code of ethics, this is something
:22:58. > :23:01.you introduced a few years ago, you might have assumed there had always
:23:02. > :23:04.been a code of ethics but there hasn't been. Making that an
:23:05. > :23:09.instinctive part of the culture so that everyone in the police service
:23:10. > :23:11.lives and breathes a code of ethics, that is the long-term aim. Thank you
:23:12. > :23:16.both very much. We did ask to speak to both
:23:17. > :23:19.and to the South Yorkshire Police and Crime Commissioner
:23:20. > :23:21.Donald Trump has called himself the Republican
:23:22. > :23:26.And he is not being that presumptious in
:23:27. > :23:31.The bookies have put an 83% chance of him
:23:32. > :23:35.Now, while Mr Trump has been a phenomenal campaigner and a good
:23:36. > :23:37.laugh along the way, even his best friends would concede
:23:38. > :23:40.that he hasn't always looked Presidential.
:23:41. > :23:42.So today was a very big moment in his campaign,
:23:43. > :23:47.He gave a foreign policy speech without any of that
:23:48. > :23:49."who'll pay for the wall?" rhetoric;
:23:50. > :23:52.it was his statement of what he calls an "America First"
:23:53. > :23:54.foreign policy, with lots of implications for us all.
:23:55. > :23:56.We'll discuss those shortly, but first Mark Urban looks
:23:57. > :24:15.We have all heard Donald Trump on the stump, uncompromising and at
:24:16. > :24:20.times outrageous. Total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the
:24:21. > :24:27.United States. I am going to build a wall and Mexico will pay for it.
:24:28. > :24:32.When was the last time anybody saw us feeding, let's say, China. We are
:24:33. > :24:36.going to have our borders nice and strong, we are going to build the
:24:37. > :24:41.wall. Would I approve water boarding? You bet your as I would. I
:24:42. > :24:48.would knock the hell out of Isis, you have to take out their families.
:24:49. > :24:54.When did we feed Japan? But with delegates priming up in one primary
:24:55. > :24:58.after another it was Jane Fonda gear change, from the contender talking
:24:59. > :25:02.to the Republican base to the nominee apparent addressing the
:25:03. > :25:06.wider American public. So today we got a detailed foreign policy
:25:07. > :25:12.speech, it was scripted unlike some of his off the calf campaign marks
:25:13. > :25:21.and the tone was softer than before as well. At the under lying message
:25:22. > :25:25.was the same, an assertion of American exceptionalism. My foreign
:25:26. > :25:29.policy will always put the interests of the American people and American
:25:30. > :25:36.security above all else. It has to be first. It has to be. He roundly
:25:37. > :25:41.attacked President Obama's Iran nuclear dear, what many think is his
:25:42. > :25:46.biggest foreign policy achievement. We have a president who dislikes our
:25:47. > :25:50.friends and bones to our enemies, something we have never seen before
:25:51. > :25:53.in the history of our country. He negotiated a disastrous deal with
:25:54. > :25:58.Iran and then we watched them ignore its terms even before the ink was
:25:59. > :26:04.dry will stop Iran cannot be allowed to have a nuclear weapon, cannot be
:26:05. > :26:11.allowed, remember that, cannot be allowed to have a nuclear weapon.
:26:12. > :26:20.Letting the militaries ball to rack and ruin, he promised to restore its
:26:21. > :26:24.relevance. There would be much more spending on defence and a warning to
:26:25. > :26:29.allies in Europe that scene is expected of them. Our allies must
:26:30. > :26:34.contribute towards their financial, political and human costs, they have
:26:35. > :26:39.to do it, of our tremendous security burden. But many of them are simply
:26:40. > :26:44.not doing so. The countries we are defending must pay for the cost its
:26:45. > :26:48.defence and if not the United States must be prepared to let these
:26:49. > :26:56.countries defend themselves. We have no choice. What is all this hardware
:26:57. > :27:01.for? Restoring American power and global onslaught against a radical
:27:02. > :27:06.Islam he said. Nato would be welcome he said to join in that effort and
:27:07. > :27:11.encountering migrants. But should steer wheel clear of going up
:27:12. > :27:18.against Russia as President Trump would be negotiating our resected
:27:19. > :27:22.inhalations with them as part of his vision for foreign policy. We will
:27:23. > :27:28.no longer surrender this country or its people to the false song of
:27:29. > :27:33.globalism. The nation state remains the true foundation for happiness
:27:34. > :27:37.and harmony. I am sceptical of international unions that tie us up
:27:38. > :27:41.and bring America down. Trump instils joy among
:27:42. > :27:45.some, strikes the fear And others simply say they don't
:27:46. > :27:48.know what he believes, Let's ask which is
:27:49. > :27:52.the right view of him.. I'm joined from Washington
:27:53. > :27:54.by Edward Luttwak, a historian and political scientist,
:27:55. > :27:55.and by David Frum, who was a speechwriter
:27:56. > :28:04.for George W Bush. Edouard, is there a Donald Trump
:28:05. > :28:13.that is not as crazy as some people say he is? The Donald Trump that
:28:14. > :28:18.exists exists in the United States of America. He talks about a wall on
:28:19. > :28:22.the border of Mexico and in fact under the Obama administration a lot
:28:23. > :28:27.of money has been spent on a fence along the Mexican border. He talks
:28:28. > :28:35.about not giving a Visa to people from Muslim countries, or elsewhere
:28:36. > :28:37.and under the Obama administration entering the United States for
:28:38. > :28:44.people holding passports from the Muslim countries, and recently with
:28:45. > :28:50.the restriction on the Visa waiver programme, British people who have
:28:51. > :28:56.travelled to Muslim countries are no longer Visa free. In other words
:28:57. > :29:00.they are caught between the existing Obama and the existing Donald Trump,
:29:01. > :29:06.the gap is far narrower than you might imagine. Look at what he says
:29:07. > :29:13.about immigration and so on, or Bama's record in the number of
:29:14. > :29:17.deportations and so it goes. Equally, in regard to getting the
:29:18. > :29:24.situation of course with spending and Nato is that Nato where only 2%
:29:25. > :29:29.criteria which is half the Cold War spending. Nobody is spending 2%, web
:29:30. > :29:34.hello, including Britain, yet they still pretend to set up the table
:29:35. > :29:39.and pronounce... We will come back to that. Let me put this point to
:29:40. > :29:43.David Frum, two day definitely he looked a little more serious and a
:29:44. > :29:46.bit more presidential and that was partly the decor but do you think
:29:47. > :29:50.there is a serious Donald Trump trying to get out of the comedy
:29:51. > :29:53.Donald Trump we have seen in the campaign?
:29:54. > :30:01.did not try very hard to make sense, Donald Trump began with one
:30:02. > :30:08.paragraph he said that we are going to drop allies, as allies who do not
:30:09. > :30:13.pay, and then in the next paragraph he complained that America buzz
:30:14. > :30:16.allies see the country as unreliable. Perhaps they see it as
:30:17. > :30:23.that because of the thing you said just one paragraph previous(!) the
:30:24. > :30:26.speech did not try to make sense, but there was something serious at
:30:27. > :30:31.work, something disquieting, politico Europe reported that in the
:30:32. > :30:35.front row of the talk, not a big talk, not a big room, Russian
:30:36. > :30:41.ambassador. We know that the Kremlin has made big attempted penetrate
:30:42. > :30:45.Democrats that all systems, the Front National in France, the
:30:46. > :30:48.national front in the UK, also persistent rumours of involvement
:30:49. > :30:52.with the Scottish Nationalist... We cannot go into any of that, because
:30:53. > :30:57.we do not know what the financing is but... The point is... Yes,
:30:58. > :31:03.something with Russia... A little bit more than a rapprochement with
:31:04. > :31:06.Russia, it is an open door, look at the advisers of Donald Trump, look
:31:07. > :31:10.at some of the most important people in his operation, this is beginning
:31:11. > :31:14.to look like something that a lot of French people, German people,
:31:15. > :31:18.British people would recognise as uncomfortable. Edward, on that
:31:19. > :31:27.specifically, a kind of warmer, reaching out to Vladimir Putin, good
:31:28. > :31:34.or bad? Again, maybe good, maybe terrible, but if you were to go and
:31:35. > :31:40.ask the normal foreign policy experts, the people in my line of
:31:41. > :31:45.business, talk with former senior ambassadors, at the highest level,
:31:46. > :31:53.all of them believe that the United States as to improve relations with
:31:54. > :32:00.Russia. There is talk about reviving an algorithm society, and because of
:32:01. > :32:05.the notion of hostility to Russia is only affected in the degree that you
:32:06. > :32:11.can actually stop Russia. -- Elbe River Society. If there was a
:32:12. > :32:17.willingness in Nato, among members, Italy, France, Britain, Germany, to
:32:18. > :32:19.send trips to the Ukraine, in the United States could be there and
:32:20. > :32:25.confront Russia, if you cannot confront Russia, because of the
:32:26. > :32:30.American position, or the Allied position, then you should improve
:32:31. > :32:34.relations with Moscow. There is a consensus, go to the Council for
:32:35. > :32:40.foreign relations, that is exactly what they say. Let me put that point
:32:41. > :32:45.to David, it sounds like Europe should be quite worried by Donald
:32:46. > :32:49.Trump, threatening Nato, obviously taking a different attitude towards
:32:50. > :32:53.Russia, is that the right leading of what we heard today? -- right
:32:54. > :32:56.reading. Europe should be worried not because of what Donald Trump is
:32:57. > :33:00.saying but Europe should be worried because the likeliest outcome of
:33:01. > :33:07.this Donald Trump candidacy and nomination, a historic collapse in
:33:08. > :33:13.Republican strength. We are looking at the high likelihood of a Clinton
:33:14. > :33:16.presidency, you will not find that uncomfortable, but major Democratic
:33:17. > :33:19.gains in the Senate and possibly the house as well, congressional
:33:20. > :33:24.Democrats are well to the left of where a Clinton presidency would be,
:33:25. > :33:27.from trade to giving support on the migration measures, that Britain
:33:28. > :33:33.desperately needs to take. You may find that there is a second order of
:33:34. > :33:35.the trump candidacy, that you are facing a United States less
:33:36. > :33:39.sympathetic and understanding to the problems of Europe than the historic
:33:40. > :33:46.norm, which has prevailed between the two continents. Inky very much
:33:47. > :33:48.indeed. -- thank you very much indeed.
:33:49. > :33:51.You don't need to be a psephologist to notice that politics
:33:52. > :33:55.Fights within big parties; smaller parties exerting huge influence.
:33:56. > :33:56.And huge regional and national variations.
:33:57. > :33:59.Scottish politics is in a very different place to that of England
:34:00. > :34:01.and Wales for example, we'll probably get more evidence
:34:02. > :34:03.of that in the Scottish election, a week tomorrow.
:34:04. > :34:06.Psephologist John Curtice has been struck by the changes
:34:07. > :34:27.VOICEOVER: The question that Labour MPs at Westminster will be asking
:34:28. > :34:31.themselves when they see the results of the local and devolved elections
:34:32. > :34:35.on May the 5th, what do they tell them about Labour's prospects for
:34:36. > :34:40.winning an election under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership in 2020? In so
:34:41. > :34:48.doing, they are in danger of making a big mistake, the truth is, British
:34:49. > :35:02.politics is dead. No longer is electoral success confined to
:35:03. > :35:04.parties like Labour and the Conservatives, who fight elections
:35:05. > :35:06.on a Britain wide basis. Party support no longer necessarily moves
:35:07. > :35:08.in the same direction, across the country. The issues that mattered
:35:09. > :35:11.the most two voters have diverged. Scotland's links with British
:35:12. > :35:14.politics were already weakened, by the failure of the Conservatives
:35:15. > :35:20.north of the border to make any significant recovery from the slump
:35:21. > :35:25.in their support and representation back in 1997. Then in last year 's
:35:26. > :35:32.general election, Labour suffered a historic collapse in support. Now,
:35:33. > :35:37.the key test that Labour MPs say Jeremy Corbyn must pass is the
:35:38. > :35:43.restoration of Labour's dire position in Scotland, on May five.
:35:44. > :35:47.Things are going really well. There is now fundamental differences
:35:48. > :35:55.between elections in Scotland and those in England and Wales. The
:35:56. > :35:58.electoral scene in Scotland is now dominated by the SNP, a party that
:35:59. > :36:05.does not even contest elections south of the border. The
:36:06. > :36:08.Nationalists provide virtually all of Scotland's MPs at Westminster,
:36:09. > :36:16.which means Labour and the Conservatives are effectively only
:36:17. > :36:18.English and Welsh parties. So, the outcome in last year 's general
:36:19. > :36:25.election in Scotland was in truth completely different from that in
:36:26. > :36:30.England and Wales, in Scotland, the Labour vote collapsed, whereas
:36:31. > :36:35.Labour actually gained some ground in England and Wales. Equally, the
:36:36. > :36:39.Conservative vote in Scotland, already unbelievably low, fell yet
:36:40. > :36:44.further, to a new record low, whereas in England and Wales, again,
:36:45. > :36:47.the party was making progress. Here is very clear evidence that the
:36:48. > :36:52.fortunes of Labour, the fortunes of the Conservatives, can be very
:36:53. > :36:56.different in Scotland from what they are in either England or Wales, the
:36:57. > :37:01.only similarity that Scotland now enjoys with England and Wales is the
:37:02. > :37:05.rather sad fate of the Liberal Democrats, now a very small party in
:37:06. > :37:10.Scotland, much as is true in England and Wales. The issue that now above
:37:11. > :37:15.all divides voters in Scotland is the independence question, an issue
:37:16. > :37:20.that is peripheral to voters in England and Wales. If we look at
:37:21. > :37:26.what happened in last year 's general election, around 85 to 90%
:37:27. > :37:30.of those people who had voted yes to independence in September 2014 in
:37:31. > :37:37.the referendum held then went on to reaffirm their faith by voting for
:37:38. > :37:40.the SNP, whereas only around 15 to 20% of those that voted no to
:37:41. > :37:47.independence were willing to buck to the Nationalists. This is a
:37:48. > :37:49.constitutional question, that is now at the heart of the Scottish
:37:50. > :37:51.electoral politics, whereas in England and Wales, it hardly figures
:37:52. > :38:00.at all. The polls in Scotland have not moved
:38:01. > :38:05.forward it is, indeed not four months. As a result, it looks as
:38:06. > :38:15.though Labour could do at least as badly on May the 5th as they did 12
:38:16. > :38:19.months ago. The truth is, for voters in Scotland, it is independence that
:38:20. > :38:24.matters. Not what they think of Jeremy Corbyn.
:38:25. > :38:26.STUDIO: John Curtice's view of our non-national politics.
:38:27. > :38:29.Let's stay in Scotland; the leader of the Labour party there has
:38:30. > :38:32.all the challenges set out in John's piece.
:38:33. > :38:35.The rug pulled from under the party by the SNP.
:38:36. > :38:37.The election will be a test for Kezia Dugdale, who has
:38:38. > :38:40.been in charge of Labour there since last summer.
:38:41. > :38:42.Some have speculated on whether the party could even
:38:43. > :38:54.Isn't it the case that the referendum changed the way that
:38:55. > :39:00.elections are framed in Scotland, and the key divined is either
:39:01. > :39:04.whether you are for independence or the union? The trouble was that
:39:05. > :39:08.Labour did not see this coming. That is fundamentally correct, what you
:39:09. > :39:10.have said, Scottish politics has completely changed since the
:39:11. > :39:15.referendum, the Labour Party must change with it, that is what I have
:39:16. > :39:19.done as the labour of the Scottish Labour Party, tried to renew a sense
:39:20. > :39:23.of who we are and what we stand for, what I'm trying to do, it is
:39:24. > :39:28.important and quite brave, to appeal to people who voted both yes and no,
:39:29. > :39:33.because I believe it is a dark day, dark future for Scotland, if how we
:39:34. > :39:37.vote in the general election, even for your local councillor, is
:39:38. > :39:42.defined by what you did on one day in September in 2014. You can say
:39:43. > :39:46.that the way that people voted for years and years and years, they
:39:47. > :39:49.voted time and again for Labour. The problem is, Labour did not
:39:50. > :39:57.understand over the years, Labour talked about evolution killing
:39:58. > :40:03.nationalism stone dead, arrogant and lazy, and it was not true. That was
:40:04. > :40:05.one voice, George Robertson, he make the case, the rest of the Labour
:40:06. > :40:13.Party was making the case for devolution, more power from London
:40:14. > :40:17.to Edinburgh. Ends must change. We are talking about my leadership, the
:40:18. > :40:20.time that I have been in charge, I am responding to the worst general
:40:21. > :40:24.election results almost possible in the Scottish election last year,
:40:25. > :40:28.going from 41 MPs down to one MP. But what we have now is eight
:40:29. > :40:34.prospectus for change, policy platform which is about ending
:40:35. > :40:39.austerity. Is it about realism, one political commentator at the weekend
:40:40. > :40:45.talked about she said that she is so relentlessly upbeat it is troubling,
:40:46. > :40:49.that you are like a puppy that does not see the bus coming, you are not
:40:50. > :40:53.going to win. What drives me out of my bed every day is tackling poverty
:40:54. > :40:57.and inequality, and opposition I can deliver some of that, but I can
:40:58. > :41:01.transform that country from a position of power. I will not give
:41:02. > :41:06.that up. You are set to lose 20 seats, by the latest polls, the
:41:07. > :41:10.lowest standing since devolution, that would be, surely it is going to
:41:11. > :41:14.take a lot more than just the same old same old, to win a Scottish
:41:15. > :41:20.electorate, which in the moment has got its head. I do not accept those
:41:21. > :41:24.numbers, when they run the numbers, they produce different results, I
:41:25. > :41:27.intend to campaign with every last breath over this next week or so to
:41:28. > :41:33.make the case for why people should vote Labour. You say same old same
:41:34. > :41:37.old, this election is very different, it is the Labour Party,
:41:38. > :41:41.the only party that is able to say that we have an anti-steroid to
:41:42. > :41:45.pledge. Our tax proposals, raising enough revenue to stop the cuts,
:41:46. > :41:48.one-year ago, Nicola Sturgeon was the one saying that she was the
:41:49. > :41:52.anti-austerities champion, who was going to tax the rich, now she's
:41:53. > :41:57.supports austerity and refuses to tax it. The problem with the tax
:41:58. > :42:02.plans, they are not about taxing the rich, it is a penny in income tax
:42:03. > :42:07.which hits taxpayers over 20,000 a year, last time that was put
:42:08. > :42:11.forward, John Smith, 1993, Shadow Chancellor, it is suggested that is
:42:12. > :42:13.what lost the election. We live in different time, people in Scotland
:42:14. > :42:18.desperately wants to stop the cuts and end austerity, we have a
:42:19. > :42:20.platform for that. When you look at the opinion polls you have just
:42:21. > :42:27.cited, three show overwhelming support for our tax proposals, the
:42:28. > :42:32.BBC's own poll, the number one most popular policy was the 50p tax, and
:42:33. > :42:36.then income tax. It is Labour plans to stop the cuts which are proving
:42:37. > :42:39.most popular in this election.