:00:10. > :00:13.The Labour leader says it's business as usual.
:00:14. > :00:23.That was Hitler's policy when he first came into power. I think you
:00:24. > :00:26.have lost, Mr Livingstone. All of this is toxic.
:00:27. > :00:32.Bradford is the city in the eye of the Labour storm after MP
:00:33. > :00:34.Naz Shah was suspended over anti-Semitic tweets.
:00:35. > :00:39.So what does her community make of the row?
:00:40. > :00:42.The position she is in, it is disgusting what she said.
:00:43. > :00:46.Because I don't blame all Israelis and all Jews for what is going
:00:47. > :00:53.The Energy Minister tells us why she believes a Brexit
:00:54. > :01:00.The playwright Michael Morpurgo tells us why he's not so sure.
:01:01. > :01:03.We are not a world power as we once were.
:01:04. > :01:06.We are a significant country in Europe.
:01:07. > :01:09.Everyone seems to think that we're not in Europe.
:01:10. > :01:11.We're in Europe, whether we like it or not.
:01:12. > :01:14.You cannot move the country towards America.
:01:15. > :01:16.And a very special performance to mark International Jazz Day.
:01:17. > :01:37."Much of the criticism about crisis in the party comes from those
:01:38. > :01:39.who are nervous of the strength of the Labour Party
:01:40. > :01:45.Those words were the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn's considered response
:01:46. > :01:48.to the row over anti-semitism that led him to suspend his close friend
:01:49. > :01:51.Ken Livingstone from the party today after he invoked Adolf Hitler
:01:52. > :01:55.as an early advocate of Zionism - a remark that led to a huge face
:01:56. > :01:58.to face row with the Labour MP John Mann, who accused him
:01:59. > :02:08.But Jeremy Corbyn's "crisis, what crisis" suggests that he views
:02:09. > :02:10.the row over anti-semitism more as an attack on his leadership
:02:11. > :02:26.Here is John Swinney. All I wanted to do was get on with some
:02:27. > :02:34.gardening. But it was not to be. Time to apologise? Why are you being
:02:35. > :02:39.told to apologise? Why have you brought Adolf Hitler into it? Why is
:02:40. > :02:43.he a vote winner? How on earth did that happen? Earlier on the
:02:44. > :02:50.breakfast show, when asked about internet posts by the now suspended
:02:51. > :02:54.Labour MP Naz Shah... She talked about relocating Israel to America,
:02:55. > :03:03.she talked about what Hitler did being legal and she talked about the
:03:04. > :03:08.Jews rallying, not using the word is released... That was not
:03:09. > :03:13.anti-Semitic? It was not, whenever Hitler won the election in 1932, his
:03:14. > :03:17.policy was that Jews should be moved to Israel, he was supporting
:03:18. > :03:23.Zionism. That was the breakfast show. By 11 o'clock, who was heading
:03:24. > :03:29.for the studios at Westminster. On the way, who did he meet but a
:03:30. > :03:37.Labour comrades. John Mann, MP. You are a Nazi apologist. Rewriting
:03:38. > :03:41.history... By now, Sadiq Khan, the Labour candidate for his old job,
:03:42. > :03:48.Mayor of London, had called for his suspension. If you read Mein
:03:49. > :03:55.Kampf... When was that written? About 1924. That is anti-Semitic.
:03:56. > :04:01.And outrageous, when he wrote that back then, why bring up this
:04:02. > :04:07.distinction between him? This is toxic, isn't it? Journalists should
:04:08. > :04:12.not ask those questions if you do not want me to answer them. All I
:04:13. > :04:17.wanted to do was some gardening but because a journalist asked me the
:04:18. > :04:19.question, I answered it... Some Labour MPs would have loved it if
:04:20. > :04:24.you stayed and did your gardening. Do you think you should stand down
:04:25. > :04:28.and leave the Labour Party to get on with their election that having this
:04:29. > :04:36.weird argument about Adolf Hitler being a Zionist? We are above all of
:04:37. > :04:42.these issues... Almost lost in all of this was another comment by Ken
:04:43. > :04:47.Livingstone in that interview. He suggested I distinction between
:04:48. > :04:50.anti-Semitism and racism. I lunchtime was the news that Ken
:04:51. > :04:55.Livingstone was toast, or at least suspended from the party. Labour
:04:56. > :05:01.suspensions over accusations of anti-Semitism these days are coming
:05:02. > :05:05.right London buses. All at once. But Ken Livingstone is not anybody, he
:05:06. > :05:13.scored the Jeremy Corbyn project going way back. Here he is with Hugo
:05:14. > :05:19.Chavez in happier times. This afternoon, this from the leader.
:05:20. > :05:23.Party membership is as big as it has been in my lifetime, 400,000
:05:24. > :05:28.individual members, 100,000 affiliated supporters, 3 million
:05:29. > :05:32.affiliated trade union members. It is a very big organisation and I
:05:33. > :05:36.suspect that much of this criticism that you say about crisis in the
:05:37. > :05:39.party comes from those who are nervous about the strength of the
:05:40. > :05:44.Labour Party at a local level. Not everyone is convinced. Mr Corbyn
:05:45. > :05:49.said crisis, what crisis? And this quote comes from those who are
:05:50. > :05:56.nervous about the strength of the Labour Party at a local level. This
:05:57. > :06:00.is about anti-Semitism, the Labour Party has always stood against
:06:01. > :06:05.discrimination and racism and we are falling short of those principles
:06:06. > :06:09.and ideals. In seven days, much of Britain goes to the polls. In
:06:10. > :06:13.London, all addicts is happening in an extraordinary atmosphere. Labour
:06:14. > :06:19.has descended into a catastrophic rise over anti-Semitism. Meanwhile,
:06:20. > :06:23.the Conservatives are accused of stigmatising Labour's candidate,
:06:24. > :06:29.said it can, for being who he is. For the first time in decades, the
:06:30. > :06:33.politics of religion and identity are at play.
:06:34. > :06:35.Well, we're joined now from Leeds by Jon Trickett,
:06:36. > :06:38.Shadow Local Government Secretary and close friend of Jeremy Corbyn.
:06:39. > :06:47.Good evening. You have been a member of the party for almost 50 years,
:06:48. > :06:51.can you remember any time when Bob Dudley anti-Semitic remarks were
:06:52. > :06:57.made by Labour MPs? Know, and this is not acceptable, I was a victim
:06:58. > :07:00.myself of an anti-Semitic attack last year and I went to court and
:07:01. > :07:06.the man involved was found guilty and I was absolutely astonished.
:07:07. > :07:10.That that happened on the streets of Britain. And it is equally appalling
:07:11. > :07:16.if anybody expresses any view inside the Labour Party which has a long
:07:17. > :07:23.record of fighting racism and fighting anti-Semitism and we will
:07:24. > :07:30.continue to strongly play the argument against any form of racism.
:07:31. > :07:35.Let us clarify some points. One what is anti-Semitism and what is
:07:36. > :07:39.anti-Israel. Ken Livingstone today, is it acceptable for him to say that
:07:40. > :07:45.Hitler was a supporter of Zionism? I did not hear him in that interview
:07:46. > :07:51.but the truth is, the bits that I have seen caused me to feel very
:07:52. > :07:57.uncomfortable. The idea that we should somehow be going back to some
:07:58. > :08:05.period in the life of Hitler when he was working with the Jewish nation
:08:06. > :08:10.or Jewish race is ludicrous. In 2016, the problems which the nation
:08:11. > :08:16.is facing right now, and there is a rise of anti-Semitism in the country
:08:17. > :08:21.and the Labour Party will play a major leading role in fighting bad.
:08:22. > :08:27.Have no doubt. Let's get another remark, racism is not the same as
:08:28. > :08:34.anti-Semitism. Do you believe that? Anti-Semitism is racism. It is
:08:35. > :08:38.racist. Let us be clear about this, racism has no part at all in our
:08:39. > :08:44.country and in a progressive party like the Labour Party, this must
:08:45. > :08:49.have a role and Jeremy Corbyn did act within moments, within a couple
:08:50. > :08:52.of hours, after hearing those comments from Ken Livingstone,
:08:53. > :08:58.notwithstanding the fact they have worked together for many years. He
:08:59. > :09:03.was suspended and rightly so. He was slower when it came to Naz Shah. Her
:09:04. > :09:08.statements... Israel should be removed to the US. Is that
:09:09. > :09:15.anti-Semitic? It is completely unacceptable. Anti-Semitic? Of
:09:16. > :09:20.course it is. And let me say, Naz Shah was within three hours of that
:09:21. > :09:24.statement being brought to our attention, was off the job she was
:09:25. > :09:31.doing... She was not suspended. Hang on. She stood down within three
:09:32. > :09:36.hours from the job she had and asked to make an apology to the house and
:09:37. > :09:39.she did and was then suspended. As soon as the information was
:09:40. > :09:44.available to the party. Not one case has lasted more than 48 hours from
:09:45. > :09:49.the moment it was brought to our attention to the point at which
:09:50. > :09:55.action was taken. Naz Shah also said two other things... The Jews are
:09:56. > :10:01.rallying and she also compared Zionism to Al-Qaeda. You said she
:10:02. > :10:06.was removed from her position as PPS to John McDowall but during her
:10:07. > :10:13.first interview she was not suspended and some time longer to
:10:14. > :10:17.deal with Naz Shah. It took 36 hours from start to finish, everybody is
:10:18. > :10:23.untitled two due process. This is a member of the Labour Party who
:10:24. > :10:26.represents people in Bradford. Action was taken and it was tough,
:10:27. > :10:32.it was straightforward and it was quick and she will have a chance,
:10:33. > :10:38.she apologised to the house and she will have a chance to better case to
:10:39. > :10:42.the committee. -- put her case. This is unacceptable in the modern Labour
:10:43. > :10:46.Party and we will not tolerate that and as somebody who has been in
:10:47. > :10:50.court recently as a victim of anti-Semitic action, let me make
:10:51. > :10:54.this clear to everybody, I was speaking to the leadership and this
:10:55. > :10:59.is unacceptable behaviour, these views are not part of modern Britain
:11:00. > :11:02.and the modern Labour Party. Is there a problem on the left of
:11:03. > :11:09.politics that eight strong anti-Israeli sentiment has crossed
:11:10. > :11:12.into anti-Semitism is not I do not know that is the case, racism is
:11:13. > :11:17.normally an attribute of the right-wing, in the titles you drew
:11:18. > :11:23.attention to the anti-Muslim comments made by the Prime Minister.
:11:24. > :11:34.You sound rather complacent. Is there a strong... Anti-Semitic
:11:35. > :11:38.sentiment bleeding into the party? It is acceptable to have a debate
:11:39. > :11:43.about the actions of any Israeli government, right or wrong, but when
:11:44. > :11:46.this bleeds into anti-Semitism and racism, it is completely wrong and
:11:47. > :11:50.that should not happen and will not be tolerated in this party and I
:11:51. > :11:55.accept the point you are making, some people fail to make the
:11:56. > :11:58.distinction but in doing so, if you think they are promoting the cause
:11:59. > :12:03.of the Palestinians by adopting racist language, and attitudes
:12:04. > :12:08.towards the Israelis, they are not, they are doing damage to the cause.
:12:09. > :12:14.But if you have got a leader, people like Rachel Reeves, they say is
:12:15. > :12:18.giving a slow response and we are falling short of principles are the
:12:19. > :12:21.Labour Party, she says this is a growing problem and Jeremy Corbyn
:12:22. > :12:27.has not responded, not just in the last couple of days but to this
:12:28. > :12:30.problem that has been boiling away. I think boiling might be a slight
:12:31. > :12:36.exaggeration but there is no complicity here, each case has been
:12:37. > :12:39.dealt with immediately, Jeremy will make a series of announcements
:12:40. > :12:44.shortly about all of this and we will continue to act in the most
:12:45. > :12:49.vigorous way. Any sign of racism in this party will not be tolerated and
:12:50. > :12:52.we will continue to lead the movement against racism in our
:12:53. > :12:58.country. Jeremy Corbyn, it appeared to me, to not quite deflect the
:12:59. > :13:02.anti-Semitism ride but talking about the influx of new members to the
:13:03. > :13:08.party, he said that much of this criticism over anti-Semitism comes
:13:09. > :13:12.from people who are nervous of the strength of the party at local
:13:13. > :13:15.level. Do you really agree? I hope that nobody is using the acquisition
:13:16. > :13:22.of anti-Semitism for factional reasons. I hope nobody is doing that
:13:23. > :13:25.but let us be clear, whatever... But do you agree with Jeremy Corbyn that
:13:26. > :13:30.much of this criticism being levelled at Labour over
:13:31. > :13:34.anti-Semitism is in reality a criticism of the strength of the
:13:35. > :13:40.party at local level? It sounds like deflection? We're not going to
:13:41. > :13:44.tolerate any form of racism or anti-Semitism in the party and our
:13:45. > :13:50.actions in the last few days showed this is the case, a member of the
:13:51. > :13:54.running seat today has been dealt with and I hope this is the end of
:13:55. > :13:57.it because people need to know that we will act with great firmness and
:13:58. > :14:02.we will lead the anti-racist movement, as the Labour Party always
:14:03. > :14:08.did and always will and in my own case, my grandmother was Jewish. I
:14:09. > :14:14.remember the anti-Semitism she faced on the streets of Leeds. It looks
:14:15. > :14:19.like it has seen a resurgence. We will not put up with this. Let's be
:14:20. > :14:22.finally put this to you that Jeremy Corbyn is suggesting very clearly
:14:23. > :14:27.that the criticism of the Labour Party over anti-Semitism has got its
:14:28. > :14:31.roots in problems he says that people have with the strength of the
:14:32. > :14:38.local Labour Party. On Newsnight last night, a rabbi and Lord Levi
:14:39. > :14:42.were critical of the party and anti-Semitism. You really do not
:14:43. > :14:49.think that they are concerned over the strength of Jeremy Corbyn's
:14:50. > :14:51.Labour Party at local level? It is not something that occurred to me
:14:52. > :14:56.that they would think and not something I believe either. What I
:14:57. > :15:00.believe is that racism is unacceptable in our country and the
:15:01. > :15:00.party and we will deal with it. Thank you.
:15:01. > :15:08.Joining me in the studio is Labour MP Wes Streeting.
:15:09. > :15:15.How disturbing is all this to you? This has been a pretty dreadful day
:15:16. > :15:18.for the Labour Party and the latest in a string of dreadful days
:15:19. > :15:24.concerning anti-Semitism, whether it is as we have seen in the last
:15:25. > :15:29.couple of days actions by members of the parliamentary party, but plenty
:15:30. > :15:33.of examples also of activists and their language, many of whom predate
:15:34. > :15:38.the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn. When I see are leader on television
:15:39. > :15:41.effectively saying crisis, what crisis? I think needs to talk to
:15:42. > :15:45.some of my constituents who are telling me about the struggle they
:15:46. > :15:51.are having with voting Labour, many who have voted Labour their entire
:15:52. > :15:57.lives. Deeply hurtful to those who would suffer from anti-Semitism, for
:15:58. > :16:02.Jeremy Corbyn to say they are just concerned about the strength of the
:16:03. > :16:05.Labour Party? Absolutely, today we have had people from across the
:16:06. > :16:16.spectrum of the Labour family speaking out against this. If it is,
:16:17. > :16:21.as I was just saying, about the flexion, surely that is deeply
:16:22. > :16:25.insulting? There has been an issue with the flat-footed response of the
:16:26. > :16:29.Labour Party, that is when the issue was first on our radar as MP's as a
:16:30. > :16:37.source of serious concern, that we were not acting quickly enough. On
:16:38. > :16:41.the question of Ken Livingstone, the hierarchy will say he is under
:16:42. > :16:45.investigation, but in the modern Labour Party, after what has
:16:46. > :16:50.happened do you think there is a place Ken Livingstone? No, I would
:16:51. > :16:54.not be sorry if he did not return. In the case of Ken Livingstone he
:16:55. > :17:00.went out today to defend comments which Naz Shah herself did not
:17:01. > :17:03.defend. She expressed remorse and a determination to behave differently
:17:04. > :17:07.and will be judged by how she behaves in the future as well as the
:17:08. > :17:11.past. But Ken Livingstone went around like a political arsonist
:17:12. > :17:14.pouring petrol all over serious issues facing the Labour Party and
:17:15. > :17:19.made matters worse. I don't know what he thought he was achieving and
:17:20. > :17:23.he is on the ruling NEC, the body that supports to enforce the rule
:17:24. > :17:27.book. How can have people have confidence the party is combating
:17:28. > :17:33.anti-Semitism when he is behaving this way? You have said that
:17:34. > :17:37.activists are making anti-Semitic remarks and I know you have been
:17:38. > :17:42.looking for a readership on this? Absolutely, let's be clear, the
:17:43. > :17:45.majority of Labour Party members will be appalled by what has
:17:46. > :17:49.happened and it all of our responsibility to speak up to create
:17:50. > :17:53.an environment where Jewish people and all decent minded people are
:17:54. > :17:57.included. But Jeremy Corbyn has a reach across the left, parts of the
:17:58. > :18:01.left weather is a problem with anti-Semitism and he is a lifelong
:18:02. > :18:05.anti-racist so it's not just the responsibility to act, there is a
:18:06. > :18:09.great opportunity. Jon Trickett would say he has act quickly in the
:18:10. > :18:15.case of Ken Livingstone and reasonably quickly on Naz Shah, but
:18:16. > :18:18.what else does he have to do? Labour members of the all-party group
:18:19. > :18:21.against anti-Semitism offered to meet Jeremy Corbyn because I think
:18:22. > :18:25.there are practical things we can do in terms of the Labour Party rules
:18:26. > :18:28.and structures, to make a practical difference. We asked for that
:18:29. > :18:36.meeting and were told it is going ahead after the elections in May but
:18:37. > :18:39.still no date has been fixed and it reinforces the idea, and their
:18:40. > :18:48.comments Jeremy Mincey later in the day have further fanned the flames.
:18:49. > :18:54.-- the comments Jeremy Mincey later. A big problem for Labour, this is a
:18:55. > :19:00.damaging issue. Absolutely. We have seen leadership from the city can,
:19:01. > :19:06.and we should see that from the top -- from Sadiq Khan. Decent minded
:19:07. > :19:09.conservatives have done the same but we cannot have double standards, we
:19:10. > :19:11.had to show leadership in our own party and get our own house in
:19:12. > :19:13.order. Thank you. This row started with
:19:14. > :19:15.the Bradford West MP Naz Shah's social media posts suggesting Israel
:19:16. > :19:18.should be moved to America, for which, at first,
:19:19. > :19:20.Jeremy Corbyn saw no reason to suspend her - a decision
:19:21. > :19:23.he reversed later yesterday. Naz Shah made a fulsome apology
:19:24. > :19:26.to the Commons but her actions have opened a Pandora's Box
:19:27. > :19:28.out of which jumped - as we've discussed - Ken Livingstone
:19:29. > :19:31.in spectacular fashion. So what is the reaction in her home
:19:32. > :19:34.town, where she made Secunder Kermani spent the day
:19:35. > :19:46.in the city of Bradford. The pews in what is now Bradford 's
:19:47. > :19:51.only synagogue used to be fooled. Now it has a congregation of just
:19:52. > :19:55.over a dozen. But when it was in danger of closing it was the local
:19:56. > :20:01.Muslim community who stepped in to save it. There is even an Muslim
:20:02. > :20:06.only synagogue council. So far as we know... This man who fled Nattie
:20:07. > :20:12.Germany in the 1930s is the chair of the synagogue. -- Nattie Germany.
:20:13. > :20:17.Naz Shah has visited twice and he says he is confident she is not
:20:18. > :20:24.anti-Semitic. Had you seen people being hostile to Jews because of the
:20:25. > :20:29.row lace -- Air Race and a legend and what is happening in Palestine?
:20:30. > :20:35.There is some confusion but there should not be, which I have alluded
:20:36. > :20:42.to before, the two are separate. Sometimes they merge, but they
:20:43. > :20:48.should not be confused. Do you think Naz Shah was one of those people who
:20:49. > :20:51.was confusing the issues? Maybe in 2014 when she made these do Robert
:20:52. > :20:58.Guerrero marks but nowadays she is as entitled to criticise Israel as
:20:59. > :21:04.anyone else. But she's not anti-Semitic. Bradford West has one
:21:05. > :21:07.of the largest populations of British Pakistanis of any
:21:08. > :21:12.parliamentary seat and many people here the Israel Palestine conflict
:21:13. > :21:14.is a big issue. When George Galloway was MP he even controversially
:21:15. > :21:24.declared the city and Israel free zone. Some people think the zero
:21:25. > :21:31.Shah is being and thoroughly criticised and others have said she
:21:32. > :21:34.should have stood her ground. But these local voters we spoke to
:21:35. > :21:40.thought she was right to have been suspended. I at 22 at the time would
:21:41. > :21:45.not have made any comment about needing to be relocated regardless
:21:46. > :21:49.of how emotional I was so I think it's possible to differentiate and
:21:50. > :21:56.the anti-Zionist and not anti-Semitic. Boris Johnson said bad
:21:57. > :22:02.stuff about black people, that's not been noticed or brought up. It has
:22:03. > :22:07.been brushed aside. Maybe because she is Muslim, maybe because she is
:22:08. > :22:11.an Asian MP from Bradford. She has not helped calls herself. Do you
:22:12. > :22:15.think some people here think good for her, she spoke up in favour of
:22:16. > :22:22.the Palestinians were not many other politicians are? Yes, she spoke up
:22:23. > :22:25.for them which is all good, I am in favour of everyone who speaks up for
:22:26. > :22:30.them because they need a voice to be heard but it is the manner of how
:22:31. > :22:34.you speak up. Like anything in life, it is the manner of doing it, it is
:22:35. > :22:40.not about blowing it out, whatever comes into your head. We have told
:22:41. > :22:43.her comments were flagged up to the media by disgruntled local rivals
:22:44. > :22:46.but they have become part of a very national issue for Labour.
:22:47. > :22:48.Scotland's Parliamentary elections next week look likely to return
:22:49. > :22:51.another SNP majority in an electoral system that was designed to prevent
:22:52. > :22:54.single party government in the Scottish Parliament.
:22:55. > :22:58.And the latest Ipsos Mori poll for Scottish Television
:22:59. > :23:01.suggests that Labour, once unassailable, could come third
:23:02. > :23:04.behind the Conservatives in what would be their worst showing
:23:05. > :23:06.for more than a century, when the Labour Party
:23:07. > :23:13.So what are the lessons of political history in Scotland that
:23:14. > :23:16.explain massive shifts in political popularity?
:23:17. > :23:20.And if the SNP are the new establishment,
:23:21. > :23:25.Here's our political editor, David Grossman.
:23:26. > :23:28.The physical landscape of Scotland is reassuringly familiar.
:23:29. > :23:32.But in politics, it's hard to find a recognisable landmark
:23:33. > :23:37.The tectonic plates of Scottish politics have shifted.
:23:38. > :23:39.How long they have shifted for, I think for generations it
:23:40. > :23:46.George Square, Glasgow, scene of celebration,
:23:47. > :23:47.rally and protest during the independence
:23:48. > :23:53.Overseeing it all, the seagull-spattered statue
:23:54. > :23:57.of a former colossus of Scottish and British politics.
:23:58. > :24:00.His party once took 85% of the vote in Scotland, although on a very
:24:01. > :24:09.Today, like Ozymandias, the Empire has weathered to dust.
:24:10. > :24:12.When Gladstone was Prime Minister and, incidentally, an MP
:24:13. > :24:15.for a Scottish constituency, you could say without a shadow
:24:16. > :24:17.of a doubt that the Liberal Party were the political
:24:18. > :24:24.In the '90s and 2000s, Gordon Brown had rather taken
:24:25. > :24:28.on the Gladstonian role and Labour was utterly dominant.
:24:29. > :24:35.Are they the new political establishment in Scotland?
:24:36. > :24:38.That certainly is how the other parties want to portray them.
:24:39. > :24:43.There is no doubt that the SNP are the new Scottish establishment.
:24:44. > :24:48.And what is worse is that they are conservatively cautious with it.
:24:49. > :24:51.And I think that is depressing for a party that claims to be
:24:52. > :24:57.Because their only goal, ultimately, is independence,
:24:58. > :25:00.they are keeping things smooth and safe so they can get that
:25:01. > :25:02.independence and I think that is not good enough for Scotland.
:25:03. > :25:04.I want Scotland to be the best again.
:25:05. > :25:06.They should want that because they say they
:25:07. > :25:13.So what has caused these huge and, so far, lasting
:25:14. > :25:18.One theory is that voters gravitate towards whoever is seen to best
:25:19. > :25:27.express a distinctive Scottish identity.
:25:28. > :25:30.And that has taken a few forms over the years, but now, of course,
:25:31. > :25:32.the standard manifestation is that Scots are more left-wing
:25:33. > :25:35.than those in England, more egalitarian, more caring,
:25:36. > :25:38.more concerned with social justice and less interested
:25:39. > :25:42.in lining their own pockets and big business.
:25:43. > :25:45.And there are elements in truth in all of that but a lot
:25:46. > :25:50.Nevertheless, the SNP own that view of how the majority of Scots
:25:51. > :25:59.Labour used to have that and before them it was the Unionist and before
:26:00. > :26:05.And whoever captures the sense of Scottishness,
:26:06. > :26:11.that sense of self, tends to do well in political terms.
:26:12. > :26:15.This shift has had a profound impact on the other parties, too.
:26:16. > :26:18.The Scottish Conservatives were once led, in turn,
:26:19. > :26:20.by a privately educated tax lawyer and an elder
:26:21. > :26:29.In a million years, they would never have tried this.
:26:30. > :26:42.Or perhaps arranging to meet journalists in a pub at 11am,
:26:43. > :26:44.but Ruth Davidson is clearly a very different type of
:26:45. > :26:52.Not to be First Minister but to lead an effective opposition
:26:53. > :27:00.I think fundamentally they come from quite a similar
:27:01. > :27:02.ideological space, of course there is the nationalist-unionist
:27:03. > :27:05.divide, although the Labour Party seems to be going a little bit
:27:06. > :27:07.softer on the union, they have lost their
:27:08. > :27:11.But in terms of their ideology, actually it is somewhat similar.
:27:12. > :27:14.In the time I have been in the Scottish Parliament,
:27:15. > :27:17.I cannot count the number of bills and legislation that I have seen
:27:18. > :27:20.being put through and I have seen the Labour Party's attempt
:27:21. > :27:22.at opposition amount pretty much to grumbling a bit
:27:23. > :27:24.from the sidelines and then voting for it anyway.
:27:25. > :27:27.And that is not really asking people, it is not challenging
:27:28. > :27:29.or having a debate, it is not having scrutiny.
:27:30. > :27:32.And that is why the SNP have been given a bit of a free ride.
:27:33. > :27:34.Whilst the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats have
:27:35. > :27:37.had time to get used to political marginality,
:27:38. > :27:45.Labour is still showing the signs of a party in shock.
:27:46. > :27:48.Last May, a forest of 40 Labour MPs was felled, leaving
:27:49. > :27:51.Iain Murray is the only Labour MP in Scotland.
:27:52. > :27:55.Is it going to be a quick fix to get Labour back where it was,
:27:56. > :27:59.I don't think it is a quick fix, the Scottish Labour Party has had
:28:00. > :28:05.And it is not going to be fixed in one election or in six months,
:28:06. > :28:07.it is a long-term project, Kezia Dugdale has stated
:28:08. > :28:10.In fact, our manifesto is a manifesto for the long-term,
:28:11. > :28:13.it is not just looking at the elections next Thursday,
:28:14. > :28:17.it is not just looking to 2020, 2021, it is looking to where
:28:18. > :28:20.What do we need to compete in the world?
:28:21. > :28:23.Because if we don't analyse what we need to compete
:28:24. > :28:26.in the world and we don't deal with that and use the powers
:28:27. > :28:29.of the Scottish Parliament to deliver that, then we will be
:28:30. > :28:31.left behind and we cannot afford for that to happen.
:28:32. > :28:33.And where does all this leave the SNP?
:28:34. > :28:35.Despite their dominance, they still reject the title "establishment".
:28:36. > :28:42.Where we have separated ourselves out from the
:28:43. > :28:48.People believe that the establishment in the UK Parliament,
:28:49. > :28:50.for example, they have a terrible track record when it
:28:51. > :28:54.came to the expenses scandal, we saw that.
:28:55. > :28:56.When it has come to the recently released Panama Papers,
:28:57. > :28:58.we have seen how members of the establishment have been...
:28:59. > :29:01.Their friends and themselves have been involved in evading tax
:29:02. > :29:06.Up here in Scotland, if you take the Scottish Parliament
:29:07. > :29:09.as an example, and the Scottish government and the SNP,
:29:10. > :29:12.we were not embroiled in the scandal, the Panama accounts
:29:13. > :29:14.have not shown any connections because there aren't connections
:29:15. > :29:19.Nevertheless, since the General Election,
:29:20. > :29:22.two SNP MPs have lost the party whip while allegations of financial
:29:23. > :29:29.If the polls are even within a Royal mile of being accurate,
:29:30. > :29:31.the SNP looks set to continue its amazing dominance
:29:32. > :29:42.In the EU referendum arguments on the economy,
:29:43. > :29:45.the voices shouting loudest so far have been warning about the adverse
:29:46. > :29:48.impact of a Brexit - the latest being the Chancellor's
:29:49. > :29:55.insistence that leaving the EU would slow growth and do permanent
:29:56. > :29:59.But today a group of economists have produced a report -
:30:00. > :30:01.a sort of Eight Horsemen against the Apocalypse -
:30:02. > :30:06.The eight economists claim that in, in fact, the UK economy
:30:07. > :30:08.would be boosted by 4% if we were outside the EU.
:30:09. > :30:13.Their report argues we wouldn't even need a new trade agreement
:30:14. > :30:15.because 70% of our exports are traded under World Trade
:30:16. > :30:23.The eight economists say the report is designed to dispel
:30:24. > :30:29.the exaggerated claims and threats whipped up by Project Fear.
:30:30. > :30:32.They argue that the benefits of the EU single market have been
:30:33. > :30:52.greatly oversold and the downside of belonging is that you must apply
:30:53. > :30:54.all its rules and conditions throughout the whole economy.
:30:55. > :30:56.So although only 12% of our GDP is directly accounted
:30:57. > :30:59.for by exports to the EU, the 88% that is not must obey
:31:00. > :31:04.A Brexit, they say, would lead to a 2% improvement in output
:31:05. > :31:08.The economists claim that consumer prices would fall by about 8%.
:31:09. > :31:11.Their argument being that the EU is a customs union and as such it
:31:12. > :31:13.artificially inflates the prices of agricultural
:31:14. > :31:16.and manufacturing goods, which hurts UK households.
:31:17. > :31:19.They forecast that if the UK remains in the EU, GDP growth
:31:20. > :31:22.By comparison, a post-Brexit reality, they predict,
:31:23. > :31:26.The economists concede short-term uncertainty but insist that this
:31:27. > :31:28.would be outweighed by the long-term benefits of becoming
:31:29. > :31:44.Joining me now is Andrea Leadsom, who is the Minister of State
:31:45. > :31:46.at the Department of Energy and Climate Change.
:31:47. > :31:49.She didn't write today's report, but she firmly believes the UK
:31:50. > :32:05.Given all of the following wind for staying inside, presumably this is
:32:06. > :32:09.music to your ears? It is great to see an alternative view and as I
:32:10. > :32:15.have said, it is very difficult to gaze into the crystal ball even to
:32:16. > :32:20.next month, 15 years, as economists are trying, but it is important to
:32:21. > :32:25.show there is another side to this argument. We will go on to whether
:32:26. > :32:30.or not the figures mean anything but when it comes to the arguments for
:32:31. > :32:38.staying within the EU or leaving, the document suggests that no flight
:32:39. > :32:44.of global situations, but if you look at HSBC, Standard Chartered,
:32:45. > :32:49.none of them at all will give any fall for leaving. HSBC have just on
:32:50. > :32:57.their periodic review of where they should face their business and have
:32:58. > :33:01.decided to stay in London. Looking at merging with the London Stock
:33:02. > :33:04.Exchange, they know there is a referendum coming up so you have to
:33:05. > :33:09.follow the money and not just look at the rhetoric. Let us look at some
:33:10. > :33:17.figures, the document is full of productions that we would be better
:33:18. > :33:20.off if we left. He would be more competitive, GDP would grow, we
:33:21. > :33:27.would be more productive and so forth. That is one set of figures,
:33:28. > :33:35.and yet leave EU were very keen to rubbish the Chancellor when he said
:33:36. > :33:41.that if we left the EU, we would be ?4300 per head worse off. What do
:33:42. > :33:49.you think? Well, that figure, the Treasury figure, assumes that the
:33:50. > :33:51.UK, if we leave the EU, pulls up the drawbridge, does no more trade and
:33:52. > :33:57.gets a very basic trade agreement with the EU and as a result, of our
:33:58. > :34:01.failure to do any International Trade, productivity will decline and
:34:02. > :34:07.that is where you get that number from. It just does not stack up.
:34:08. > :34:12.We're in a situation where this document is stuffed full of figures
:34:13. > :34:17.saying we would be better to go and those wanting to remain give just as
:34:18. > :34:22.much. You are rubbishing the Chancellor? It is very difficult for
:34:23. > :34:28.economists to look at next month let alone in 15 years and all I would
:34:29. > :34:33.say about this, this is not a document, they are eight different
:34:34. > :34:38.essays on an aspect of leaving the EU, incredibly eminent economists
:34:39. > :34:44.with a very valid view and they think there would be a benefit
:34:45. > :34:49.economically to leaving the European Union. I am not just justify their
:34:50. > :34:55.opinion but we have to look at the big picture, how could the UK
:34:56. > :35:00.survive outside? Remain say they have the OECD, the US Treasury, the
:35:01. > :35:06.CBI, Barack Obama, stacked up against them? Well, there is a very
:35:07. > :35:10.big visitation of gaining up against the poor British voter but if you
:35:11. > :35:16.look at life from the point of view of the British voter, the British
:35:17. > :35:21.voter actually is in a situation where if you are trying to get a
:35:22. > :35:25.good school plays or a doctor 's appointment or onto housing ladder,
:35:26. > :35:28.there is an overwhelming and uncontrollable goblin of too many
:35:29. > :35:34.people which is a direct result of being in the EU. This is about
:35:35. > :35:41.immigration as well? It is about a number of factors but I am talking
:35:42. > :35:44.about the fact that international institutions and other politicians
:35:45. > :35:49.do not have skin in this game, those who do are the British public, who
:35:50. > :35:55.will be voting. In terms of productivity and GDP growth, what
:35:56. > :36:00.these economists say is that if we were outside the EU, we would not
:36:01. > :36:04.have the free movement of EU citizens and we could cherry pick
:36:05. > :36:10.the cream of the immigrants who wanted to come. The same number of
:36:11. > :36:15.immigrants, but it would give us a broader range of abilities. Do you
:36:16. > :36:19.agree? I think immigration is a good thing up to a point but the problem
:36:20. > :36:23.we have is when it is uncontrolled and puts enormous pressure on UK
:36:24. > :36:31.public services then it is a problem. The other impact, is to put
:36:32. > :36:35.wages down for British workers and therein lies the problem, a certain
:36:36. > :36:38.amount of immigration is good but those immigrants need to be people
:36:39. > :36:44.who can contribute to this economy. By and large, the immigration within
:36:45. > :36:47.the European Union has been good for the country because they come and
:36:48. > :36:52.want to work very hard. The report from the Bank of England last year
:36:53. > :36:57.said that the wave of new people coming into the country has put down
:36:58. > :37:02.wages for the lower paid. Do you think that Britain should come out
:37:03. > :37:05.of the single market? I certainly think that Britain has the most
:37:06. > :37:10.amazing future ahead of us if we leave. We're not a tiny country, by
:37:11. > :37:14.the world's fifth biggest economy with the best contract law in the
:37:15. > :37:18.world, part of the Commonwealth of 2.5 billion consumers and we have
:37:19. > :37:22.the least corrupt judicial system in the world and some of the best
:37:23. > :37:27.universities... Should become the single market? Almost certainly that
:37:28. > :37:32.would be the case. Not like Norway and Switzerland? Norway has a
:37:33. > :37:38.publishing of 6 million people and is largely goods traded and Iceland,
:37:39. > :37:47.they have a proposition of 300,000, very good than Northampton. We would
:37:48. > :37:50.operate on WTO rules? We would have a UK solution and there will be
:37:51. > :37:56.something that is discussed once we get to the other side. Barack Obama
:37:57. > :38:00.says we would be at the end of the queue for any kind of trade deal
:38:01. > :38:06.were not having to deal with 500 million? Even the day after,
:38:07. > :38:10.officials from the US Department had said there is no such thing as any
:38:11. > :38:15.queue for international trade deals and anyway, the US does not have
:38:16. > :38:19.many of them on the go and let us not forget that we have been in the
:38:20. > :38:24.EU for 43 years, we are the biggest foreign direct investor for the US
:38:25. > :38:29.and restore free trade agreement with the USA Today and there is no
:38:30. > :38:35.reason to think if we did not keep one would not be perfectly in line
:38:36. > :38:40.with countries like a man. If you do not leave that we need to operate
:38:41. > :38:46.under WTO rules, you don't actually have any blueprint in how we could
:38:47. > :38:49.deal with International Trade? We would have a British option, we
:38:50. > :38:55.would immediately go from being a member of the EU to being the
:38:56. > :38:58.biggest trading partner, it would be absolutely in their interests and
:38:59. > :39:02.our own interests and we have been aligning our rules with their heirs
:39:03. > :39:05.for 43 years, it would be very easy to negotiate, offensive free-trade.
:39:06. > :39:08.Thank you very much indeed. In the run-up to the EU referendum,
:39:09. > :39:11.Newsnight is inviting a number of public figures in the UK to tell
:39:12. > :39:15.us their thoughts on the EU, whether they are passionate
:39:16. > :39:16.advocates for Remain Tonight, the author and playwright,
:39:17. > :39:20.and the man who wrote I think what we are in the process
:39:21. > :39:36.of doing is finding a new place for ourselves in the world
:39:37. > :39:40.and we have not quite found it. Europe has been, if you like,
:39:41. > :39:43.our resting place for some time now But we are, I think, as a people,
:39:44. > :39:50.uncomfortable being one We are not a world
:39:51. > :39:58.power as we once were. We are a significant
:39:59. > :40:01.country in Europe. Everyone seems to think that
:40:02. > :40:05.we're not in Europe. There is the Channel between us
:40:06. > :40:07.but we are in Europe, We cannot move the country towards
:40:08. > :40:10.America. But in a way, we are,
:40:11. > :40:14.to some extent, going back I think it has been
:40:15. > :40:27.disappointing, the re-negotiation. Not necessarily because of
:40:28. > :40:31.what David Cameron has or has not But because of the kind
:40:32. > :40:38.of threat that it came with. It seems to me that when you go
:40:39. > :40:40.into discussions with friends, you don't begin it by saying,
:40:41. > :40:46.if I don't get what I want out of this discussion, I am leaving,
:40:47. > :40:48.and I'll through my toys out We don't need to talk
:40:49. > :40:56.to our friends that way. The creation of fear
:40:57. > :41:02.and the uncertainty of it is being whipped up by one side
:41:03. > :41:06.and by the other. And it seems to me that they're
:41:07. > :41:08.missing the point I tend to be the kind of person
:41:09. > :41:14.who listens to one side of it And then I hear the other side
:41:15. > :41:18.and I think that's right. But they don't know any more
:41:19. > :41:21.than I do. And I do know my history,
:41:22. > :41:25.I do know we have been at peace for all these years and that has
:41:26. > :41:28.something to do with the EU. This is not a club that I think
:41:29. > :41:31.we should leave without thinking That's just about
:41:32. > :41:41.all from us tonight. But we've just enough time for some
:41:42. > :41:44.music in celebration The all-star Human Revolution
:41:45. > :41:47.Orchestra will be performing An Ode to the Human Spirit
:41:48. > :41:50.at London's Shaw Theatre on Saturday The acclaimed jazz guitarist
:41:51. > :43:21.Hugh Burns is here to give us We are days away from the start of
:43:22. > :43:25.me but this spring weather will continue. Low pressure bringing
:43:26. > :43:29.further outbreaks of rain, sleet and hill snow to the northern half of
:43:30. > :43:30.the country in particular and Northern Ireland getting