:00:00. > :00:00.A week of wondering where anti-Zionism becomes anti-Semitism.
:00:00. > :00:14.Tonight, we tackle that question head on.
:00:15. > :00:16.Ken Livingstone insists he's said nothing wrong,
:00:17. > :00:20.Those who support him say debate about Israel is being stifled.
:00:21. > :00:24.His critics tell us that cannot become a cover for blatant racism.
:00:25. > :00:27.I don't know why anyone would vote for Labour in the state
:00:28. > :00:31.I don't know why anyone would vote for Labour as long as Corbyn,
:00:32. > :00:33.who dared to say yesterday, "Crisis, what crisis?"
:00:34. > :00:41.The least he could do is to say, OK, there's a problem.
:00:42. > :00:46.We ask our guests on both sides. And we'll have the latest
:00:47. > :00:50.on Corbyn's anti-semitism action plan - published tonight.
:00:51. > :00:51.Also tonight, the Labour fortress of Wales.
:00:52. > :00:58.Ukip is hoping to turn some of those green valleys a new shade of purple
:00:59. > :01:03.People now realise that if they want things to change in Wales,
:01:04. > :01:07.And a lot of the Labour voters are not really
:01:08. > :01:13.And once upon a time, a tiny mid-table football club hit
:01:14. > :01:16.As the Leicester City fairytale nears its spectacular conclusion,
:01:17. > :01:19.we ask if the club's success could change the multi-billion
:01:20. > :01:34.There's a point, some might say, when you should step
:01:35. > :01:40.Ken Livingstone hasn't found that point yet.
:01:41. > :01:42.He confirmed to newspapers today he stood by his comments
:01:43. > :01:44.about Hitler - first made 30 years ago -
:01:45. > :01:46.and called on Labour to reinstate him.
:01:47. > :01:49.Labour has promised to get a grip on tackling anti-Semitism,
:01:50. > :01:54.but the questions at the heart of the row perhaps go wider
:01:55. > :01:58.than the problems facing one political party.
:01:59. > :02:02.Some on the left have argued that the cries of anti-Semitism have
:02:03. > :02:07.been aimed at shutting down criticism of Israel
:02:08. > :02:09.So tonight, we ask how far legitimate questions
:02:10. > :02:12.about the nature of the Jewish State before it turns into
:02:13. > :02:16.We will talk to guests on both sides in a moment.
:02:17. > :02:18.First, Chris Cook has been examining the issue.
:02:19. > :02:27.He began by talking to the novelist Howard Jacobson.
:02:28. > :02:33.The word anti-Semitism. It explodes, it is so a word I don't want to us
:02:34. > :02:37.yoorks I don't want to hear myself saying it, I haven't for years,
:02:38. > :02:42.wanted to say anti-Semitism and they are making me say it. Wish the left
:02:43. > :02:46.didn't make me say it. All the time. I accept and understand that the
:02:47. > :02:54.words I used caused upset. It has been a bad week for Labour.
:02:55. > :03:00.Suspending one MP and one unapologetic former Mayor of London.
:03:01. > :03:04.Both are being investigated over anti-Semitic. Labour plan to get on
:03:05. > :03:08.the front foot. The way they will do it is by setting up a rule book
:03:09. > :03:13.setting out what is acceptable criticism of the state of Israel and
:03:14. > :03:17.what is anti-Semitism. It straight forward but there is an area
:03:18. > :03:23.contested. It is round Zionism, it is surround the idea of the Jewish
:03:24. > :03:28.state itself. Lots of critics of Israel profession
:03:29. > :03:34.to oppose Zionism. Although many of them actually seem to Popes specific
:03:35. > :03:38.action by Israeli Governments. So, is signism what they are really
:03:39. > :03:44.opposing? That is where all the trouble comes from. This is why the
:03:45. > :03:48.left won't get rid of this. Sign snitch was a liberation movement.
:03:49. > :03:53.Not a movement of oppression. It wasn't a movement of clonism. I
:03:54. > :03:59.don't know why anybody given the history of Jews would want to be
:04:00. > :04:03.anti-Zionist. Allowing for the fact by Zionism we are talking about the
:04:04. > :04:09.Jews to return to their home land. Lots of questions to be asked. Lots
:04:10. > :04:15.of cruelties involved in such a dream of liberation. There always is
:04:16. > :04:18.with liberation dreams. This ledder of a pro Palestinian campaign reads
:04:19. > :04:25.the word differently. Israel needs to be judged by the same laws as
:04:26. > :04:30.everyone else. So if it means occupying and staying in occupation
:04:31. > :04:36.in Palestine in the West bank Gaza it is wrong. Would you call yourself
:04:37. > :04:40.anti-Zionism. I would if that is what it means. It has lots of
:04:41. > :04:43.different views about what it mean, if it means taking away what the
:04:44. > :04:49.world has said Palestine should have, which is a free state I am an
:04:50. > :04:52.anti-Zionism. The point of anti-Zionism is the existence of
:04:53. > :04:57.Israel itself, so it is anti-Semitism to oppose that? I am
:04:58. > :05:00.prepared to say anybody who wants to remove Israel, who thinks Israel has
:05:01. > :05:06.no right to be, and would like it not to be, I am prepared to go out
:05:07. > :05:11.on a limb and say that anybody who says that, is an anti-is mite. Do
:05:12. > :05:17.you think it is legitimate to call for the end of the state of Israel?
:05:18. > :05:20.I don't. No. The Palestinian, the PLO has accepted its economies
:05:21. > :05:25.entering it is calling for a fair and just solution, and that is what
:05:26. > :05:28.we support and I think that is what the world is supporting and nobody,
:05:29. > :05:32.I think believes that there is going to be any future that doesn't
:05:33. > :05:37.include Israel within it. So where are the lines elsewhere? We asked an
:05:38. > :05:41.deck Mick from a pro Israel organisation? Legitimate criticism
:05:42. > :05:46.isn't just fine and acceptable, it is necessary. Every nation state
:05:47. > :05:50.needs to be held to account and I think legitimate criticism sound
:05:51. > :05:55.like this. The occupation is wrong, the settlement should come to an
:05:56. > :06:00.end, the attacks upon Hamas in order to stop the rockets are
:06:01. > :06:02.disproportionate, the Israeli Arabs suffer inequalities and we should
:06:03. > :06:07.close the gaps more quickly. Whether you agree with it or not that is in
:06:08. > :06:13.the bounds of legitimate criticism. But even these criticisms can tip
:06:14. > :06:18.over into something else. If you use a discourse which is horribly
:06:19. > :06:24.demonising of Israel, which come pairs Binyamin Netanyahu to Hitler
:06:25. > :06:30.and the Nazi analogies which uses the old tropes and images that used
:06:31. > :06:36.to be apply to the Jew, the stereo typical Jew, you have wandered into
:06:37. > :06:41.the wrong area. We have it clear we don't tolerate Islamophobia, racism
:06:42. > :06:44.or anti-Semitism. I have had to expel people from the organisation
:06:45. > :06:49.and defend that action and win it. It is part of what we do. We think
:06:50. > :06:53.it is wrong. And therefore we don't tolerate it. Jeremy Corbyn's problem
:06:54. > :06:57.is Labour finds people saying things that pro Palestinians will condemn,
:06:58. > :07:05.and so, his party finds itself in trouble.
:07:06. > :07:09.Do you think that Jews should or could vote for Labour? Well, I don't
:07:10. > :07:14.know why they would right this minute. I like the idea that we
:07:15. > :07:18.should all be above petty interest, but this is petty personal interest,
:07:19. > :07:22.but this isn't petty. I don't know why anyone would vote for Labour in
:07:23. > :07:29.New measures from Corbyn, and you and this evening heard
:07:30. > :07:32.from the former General Secretary of the Labour Party on this issue.
:07:33. > :07:34.Chris, talk us through what was said.
:07:35. > :07:40.So this evening the Labour Party announced it will have a publish a
:07:41. > :07:46.report which is going to look into how it should deal with issue, where
:07:47. > :07:50.it should draw the lines. The former director of Liberty will be involved
:07:51. > :07:55.in that process, this has been accelerated in part by a procession
:07:56. > :07:59.of concern from within the Labour Party itself, the latest is Lord
:08:00. > :08:03.Triesman, who was in charge of the machinery, he was sort of the guy in
:08:04. > :08:07.charge of making sure the thing won election, he says, we have a
:08:08. > :08:10.significant problem which may drive a deep wedge between Jewish people
:08:11. > :08:15.and the party we have traditionally supported. If the Labour doesn't
:08:16. > :08:20.lance the boil fast, it will lose those who have a tribal loyalty. We
:08:21. > :08:29.are at a moment of truth. Thank you very much. You can see
:08:30. > :08:35.those words there of Lord Triesman. Let us
:08:36. > :08:45.Joining me now is Amnon Aran, an academic of Middle Eastern
:08:46. > :08:47.Studies at City University, and Ghada Karmi, who is a research
:08:48. > :08:50.fellow at the Institute of Arab and Islamic Studies at Exeter.
:08:51. > :08:54.If Jeremy Corbyn has accepted the need to make changes to the party,
:08:55. > :08:58.does it admit, if you like the party has a problem with anti-Semitism?
:08:59. > :09:03.Not necessarily, think that the ferocity of the attacks on Jeremy
:09:04. > :09:08.Corbyn, on certain members of the Labour Party, accused of
:09:09. > :09:13.anti-eSemitism and so on, has rattled the Labour leadership, I
:09:14. > :09:18.think that is what has happened. You don't think there is anti-Semitism
:09:19. > :09:21.in the Labour Party? There is anti-Semitism all over the place. So
:09:22. > :09:25.there is within the Labour Party? Is that a concession, there is? There
:09:26. > :09:30.is, and as there is in the general population as, but you see, I think
:09:31. > :09:34.the problem is people don't look into this properly, they haven't
:09:35. > :09:41.bothered, to examine these accusations of anti-Semitism, to see
:09:42. > :09:46.what actually the those accused of this, in fact said, and what would
:09:47. > :09:51.people would find is a lot of the comments were critical of Israel,
:09:52. > :09:55.Israel's policies, and that is not anti-Semitism. I am going to bring
:09:56. > :10:00.you in in a second, let us stick on this for one second. Naz Shah was
:10:01. > :10:06.the MP at the centre of this, who suggested that Israel should be
:10:07. > :10:10.moved to the United States. Would you find that statement
:10:11. > :10:15.anti-Semitic? Absolutely not. Look, everybody knows that Israel is very
:10:16. > :10:19.close to the US, that the US -- United States protects Israel, it
:10:20. > :10:23.funds it, it arms it. Moving the whole state of Israel, to the US,
:10:24. > :10:33.would not be considered anti-Semitic in your mind? No, let me explain, if
:10:34. > :10:39.you like it is, it is a clumsy way of expressing precisely that
:10:40. > :10:43.comment, the fact that the two are very closely knit together, and let
:10:44. > :10:50.me say quickly, over a million Israelis live in the US, lots of
:10:51. > :10:53.Israeli citizens have dual... I want to bring in our other guest. Foo
:10:54. > :10:57.first there is a problem in the Labour Party as acknowledged by the
:10:58. > :11:01.steps taken by Jeremy Corbyn. I think the statements made by Ken
:11:02. > :11:07.Livingstone and Naz Shah have been scrutinised carefully and I think
:11:08. > :11:12.Ken Livingstone's past actions especially for example the
:11:13. > :11:14.celebration of somebody of ully and I think Ken Livingstone's past
:11:15. > :11:16.actions especially for example the celebration of somebody of someone
:11:17. > :11:22.who praise Hitler "Who put the Jews in their place" strongly suggests
:11:23. > :11:27.there is a deeply seated anti-Semitic. The point about Naz
:11:28. > :11:31.Shah, if one concedes or condones the idea of transferring a whole
:11:32. > :11:36.population surely that should be applicable if was does, I don't, but
:11:37. > :11:40.if Naz Shah would have said that or proposed that as a policy to solve
:11:41. > :11:44.peace processes generally or zones of conflict we could have maybe
:11:45. > :11:48.discussed that, but I am sure you for example would not have supported
:11:49. > :11:52.the proposal to transfer Palestinians to Jordan, even though
:11:53. > :11:58.70% of the population is Palestinian. I would not support it.
:11:59. > :12:01.But the argument there are a million Israelis in the US and
:12:02. > :12:07.transportations of Israeli is logical, seems a fallacy. Have to
:12:08. > :12:11.make this clear, Naz Shah did not say transporting the Israeli people
:12:12. > :12:16.to Israel. To United States, she is saying Israel, the state of Israel,
:12:17. > :12:22.it is an idea, that you should maybe, it is in the same vein when
:12:23. > :12:25.you say if you love them so much, go and Li there. Are you saying that
:12:26. > :12:30.The Tate of Israel should not exist? I tell you what I am saying, I need
:12:31. > :12:35.to answer you on the question of transport. I am an expert on people
:12:36. > :12:40.backbench up rooted and transported elsewhere. I am Palestinian. I
:12:41. > :12:44.understand. They are hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, were
:12:45. > :12:48.properly and really transported from our home land, many of us into
:12:49. > :12:53.refugee camps. I am wear of that. It is 23409 an idea, it wasn't a little
:12:54. > :12:59.thing a post on Facebook, it was a reality. I know all about that. I
:13:00. > :13:03.don't put it in the same bracket. It is that reason I can't understand
:13:04. > :13:08.how you can condone the comments made by Naz Shah, I personally of
:13:09. > :13:12.course would completely object, any form of transfer of any population,
:13:13. > :13:16.Palestinian, Israeli, Jewish, or... Let me widen this out a second. Do
:13:17. > :13:20.you have a problem with any other Government poll assistance the
:13:21. > :13:28.region, other than Israels? Of course. There are many, many Arab
:13:29. > :13:33.Governments, which are despotic, tyrannical, of course. But you
:13:34. > :13:38.would, you would blame its people for that? Because the connation is
:13:39. > :13:42.that when you talk about the state of Israel or moving the state of
:13:43. > :13:46.Israel, you are talking about all the people that exist in it. You are
:13:47. > :13:51.not talking about the policys of after party or a government. This
:13:52. > :13:56.was, as I tried to explain, this was a kind of comment, I mean, a silly.
:13:57. > :13:59.A lot of people forget Naz Shah for a moment, a lot of people are saying
:14:00. > :14:04.the state of Israel should not exist. You know that. When they say
:14:05. > :14:08.that, are they saying that that is the whole state, they are not
:14:09. > :14:11.talking about Likud or net or the Government. They are talking about
:14:12. > :14:19.the Israeli people. -- Binyamin Netanyahu. The post please don't us
:14:20. > :14:23.let us go all over the place. The post talked about moving Israel, the
:14:24. > :14:29.state of Israel, to the United States, in a sort of a semi jokey
:14:30. > :14:33.way, one must be able, one must be able to say things you know. We are
:14:34. > :14:40.going to a bigger question, the existence of the state of veil. That
:14:41. > :14:44.respect, think the real issue is the singularing out of Israel in some of
:14:45. > :14:48.the debate. I think if we are serious about being on the left and
:14:49. > :14:53.being liberal, then we should apply our standards to many country,
:14:54. > :14:57.Israel maybe included in that and I would join the criticisms of many of
:14:58. > :15:02.the Israeli policy, the occupation is deplorable. What about the fact
:15:03. > :15:07.that Israel in a way singles itself out. It has this policy, the right
:15:08. > :15:16.of return, for all Jew, do you think it is conflating there, a people and
:15:17. > :15:21.a state? I think Israel is predicated on the idea it is a
:15:22. > :15:27.Jewish state. It has tried to be a Jewish Democratic state. There are
:15:28. > :15:30.various elements in Israel which compromise its democratic
:15:31. > :15:34.credentials and I dare say there are many Israelis who pointed this out
:15:35. > :15:37.on a daily basis. This is not something new. The only point I
:15:38. > :15:44.would make about the debate we're having here is often we find in the
:15:45. > :15:49.debate here, in some elements in the British left, singling out of Israel
:15:50. > :15:54.on various issues which are to do with human rights, finance,
:15:55. > :15:57.oppression and so forth. If we're going to be serious about this, they
:15:58. > :16:02.should be put in a broader context, not only of the region but further
:16:03. > :16:06.beyond, then we can have a sensible debate about where Israel fits into
:16:07. > :16:12.that spectrum. Do you think anti-Semitism would disappear if
:16:13. > :16:19.Israel changed its borders? No, look, there are two issues here and
:16:20. > :16:22.you keep getting stubborn, it's really not helpful. Israel as a
:16:23. > :16:28.state violates human rights, it in breach of international law, it is
:16:29. > :16:33.therefore to be criticised, to be corrected, to be called to account.
:16:34. > :16:38.Would you do it to a lot of other countries in the region? We're
:16:39. > :16:42.talking about Israel. We're talking about where Israel fits into the
:16:43. > :16:46.context of the world in terms of criticism. Israel is among states in
:16:47. > :16:54.the world which violate human rights and which infringe... Why haven't we
:16:55. > :16:59.mentioned any others? We're talking about anti-Semitism, the Labour
:17:00. > :17:04.Party, Israel, why do you want me to talk about China, Iran or whatever?
:17:05. > :17:10.No other state is questioned about its existence in that way. We're not
:17:11. > :17:14.talking about the existence. You are not talking about the existence, I
:17:15. > :17:18.think you are not under knowledge that, but what we find in some of
:17:19. > :17:21.the debate is that Israel's which do exist is questioned and the reason
:17:22. > :17:24.we are trying to put this in broader context is to see whether some
:17:25. > :17:31.element of the debate is fuelled by anti-Semitism. When we have someone
:17:32. > :17:40.like Ken Livingstone, who celebrates personality such as use of good are
:17:41. > :17:43.we... Jeremy Corbyn has been affiliated with groups who have
:17:44. > :17:48.profound anti-Semitic credentials, I don't imply he is an anti-Semite...
:17:49. > :17:54.He is a fellow traveller in the sense that... I'll finish this
:17:55. > :17:58.point... If his anti-Zionism brings him to shed company with groups so
:17:59. > :18:03.bitterly anti-Semitic and he doesn't acknowledge that, that is where that
:18:04. > :18:08.sense of denial comes from. Do you accept sometimes the anti-Zionism
:18:09. > :18:14.that he would acknowledge covers, if you like, that people call it
:18:15. > :18:19.racism, anti-Semitism, when it isn't, that it stifles debate? I
:18:20. > :18:24.think certainly in some cases perfectly legitimate criticism of
:18:25. > :18:27.the state of Israel... There are attempts to stifle them on
:18:28. > :18:31.anti-Semitic grounds. However, I think in this country, in the UK,
:18:32. > :18:36.the debate on Israel, said in the criticism of Israel, is efficiently
:18:37. > :18:40.vocal and conspicuous, which refutes any suggestion that somehow the
:18:41. > :18:45.debate and criticism of Israel is stifled in the country, it's the
:18:46. > :18:51.last thing one could say. I'm afraid it is, I'm afraid this whole Guha is
:18:52. > :18:58.about deflecting attention from what Israel is doing to other people, the
:18:59. > :19:01.Palestinians. -- this whole hoo-ha. And it's making people think about
:19:02. > :19:03.anti-Semitism rather than the actions of the state of Israel, this
:19:04. > :19:06.is what it's about. Next week sees one of
:19:07. > :19:08.the most complicated set of elections around the UK -
:19:09. > :19:11.voting for the Scottish Parliament, the Northern Ireland Assembly,
:19:12. > :19:12.the English councils, the London Assembly -
:19:13. > :19:15.as well as several directly elected But take particular notice
:19:16. > :19:18.of what happens in Wales overnight on Thursday,
:19:19. > :19:20.which could yield some of the most Ukip is hoping to gain ground
:19:21. > :19:24.there for the first time - fielding candidates across Wales
:19:25. > :19:39.and on the regional top For nearly a century Wales has been
:19:40. > :19:45.the Labour Party's fortress. Today, it's the last redoubt of Labour in
:19:46. > :19:49.government anywhere in the UK. Since the beginning of universal suffrage
:19:50. > :19:56.in every Wales wide electoral contest are one, the party of an era
:19:57. > :20:03.in Devon has come first. -- Aneurin Bevan. Not only that, Labour created
:20:04. > :20:07.the devolved assembly in Cardiff and dominated its government ever since.
:20:08. > :20:11.We live in a fickle political age. As we've seen in Scotland, tribal
:20:12. > :20:17.political loyalties forged over decades can crumble in month.
:20:18. > :20:23.Gretchen maths. Essential part of their message is reminding voters
:20:24. > :20:31.how long Labour has been in charge. We've had 17 years. 17 years. 17
:20:32. > :20:35.years of Labour's managed decline. Key to the time for a change message
:20:36. > :20:39.is the suppose it under performance of public services in Wales compared
:20:40. > :20:42.to the rest of the UK. Plaid Cymru want a second place they lost to the
:20:43. > :20:49.Conservatives in the last assembly elections. Plaid Cymru had been in:
:20:50. > :20:54.Lycian with Labour until 2011 and we had prioritised winning a referendum
:20:55. > :21:00.to transform our national assembly into a lawmaking Parliament. I think
:21:01. > :21:04.as a junior partner in, Lycian, in many cases throughout the world, we
:21:05. > :21:08.took a hit for that in the following election. I think the situation is
:21:09. > :21:11.different now, we've had 17 years of Labour leading the government in
:21:12. > :21:17.Wales. Things could be so much better than they are. My programme
:21:18. > :21:22.of government, my excellent team of candidates and Shadow Cabinet, are
:21:23. > :21:28.ready now to for Wales the change Wales needs. And eight Plaid Cymru
:21:29. > :21:32.led government. The Liberal Democrats, too, are targeting public
:21:33. > :21:36.services. Polls suggest the party could be squeezed hard by the
:21:37. > :21:39.electoral system that once benefited them. Perhaps falling below the
:21:40. > :21:45.point where they will be treated as a group at all in the new assembly.
:21:46. > :21:49.After last year's general election nobody believes polls anyway any
:21:50. > :21:53.more. Five years ago polls said we would be wiped out, no Welsh Liberal
:21:54. > :21:57.Democrats in the National Assembly. We've had the smallest group but the
:21:58. > :22:01.group that has made the biggest difference. We've used influence to
:22:02. > :22:05.create thousands more apprenticeships, ?280 million extra
:22:06. > :22:08.into our schools. We've been able to pass a law which will see increased
:22:09. > :22:12.numbers of nurses in hospital wards. We may be small but if achieved that
:22:13. > :22:16.with five assembly members, imagine what we could do with more. The
:22:17. > :22:20.Welsh assembly electoral system has 40 seats elected on the same
:22:21. > :22:24.constituencies as Westminster but unlike Westminster the Welsh
:22:25. > :22:29.assembly is topped up with another 20 seats from five regional list.
:22:30. > :22:33.These are allocated by a system of PR. The big winner from this system
:22:34. > :22:42.at this election could be Ukip. Predicted to take five or more
:22:43. > :22:46.seats. 70 years down the line of a Labour government -- 17 years. Which
:22:47. > :22:50.has failed us. People now realise if they want things to change in Wales
:22:51. > :22:54.they have developed differently. A lot of the Labour voters are not
:22:55. > :22:59.really going to vote Tory, but they are willing to give their allegiance
:23:00. > :23:03.to Ukip because, of course, we've always spoken for the working class
:23:04. > :23:07.men and women of Wales. Barry Island is beautiful when the sun is shining
:23:08. > :23:12.and for the Conservatives seek, the Vale of Glamorgan, was a sunny spot
:23:13. > :23:13.at the last general election, where they hung on to it having taken it
:23:14. > :23:22.from Labour in 2010. It's a cast-iron rule. Ever since it
:23:23. > :23:28.was created whichever party has won this constituency goes on to form
:23:29. > :23:30.the government. But the rule only works for Westminster elections. For
:23:31. > :23:36.the assembly, the Conservatives have never taken Vale of Glamorgan. In
:23:37. > :23:41.fact, the rule in those elections seems to be that the Conservatives
:23:42. > :23:46.will underperform. It's all about selecting the right cuts. The labour
:23:47. > :23:53.of the Welsh Conservative thinks voters aren't always clear who is in
:23:54. > :23:56.charge of what. At any election time sometimes you get a great deal of
:23:57. > :23:59.indifference amongst the wider electorate but the assembly election
:24:00. > :24:04.is probably a harder sell again because the Welsh media is a small
:24:05. > :24:08.part of the media outlet that people go to for the daily feed. A lot of
:24:09. > :24:11.people are informed by Westminster News and often Welsh news comes
:24:12. > :24:15.second. Slowly but surely that is breaking down and people are getting
:24:16. > :24:19.a better understanding of where their health service is being run
:24:20. > :24:24.from, where the economy is run from, education. After 17 years of
:24:25. > :24:27.Labour's managed decline, people want change here in Wales. This
:24:28. > :24:33.election takes place against the backdrop of the troubles at Tata
:24:34. > :24:36.Steel. The Labour Welsh assembly government has been keen to present
:24:37. > :24:41.the ructions in Welsh steel as the fault of the Conservative government
:24:42. > :24:47.in Westminster. Carwyn Jones has been First Minister of Wales since
:24:48. > :24:51.2009. What do you say to those who suggest Wales lags behind the rest
:24:52. > :24:54.of the UK? If you look at job creation we've been hugely
:24:55. > :24:59.successful in bringing investment into Wales, unemployment figure is
:25:00. > :25:01.5%, lower than Scotland and Northern Ireland, London, on a par with
:25:02. > :25:07.England. A tremendous achievement given our history. Best GCSE results
:25:08. > :25:12.ever. We are building more schools around Wales, it's not happening in
:25:13. > :25:16.England because schools building... On health care challenges. In all
:25:17. > :25:19.health services on the UK but independent studies have shown the
:25:20. > :25:24.UK health systems are more or less the same. What we don't have is a
:25:25. > :25:27.junior doctors strike. According to latest polls, Labour support in
:25:28. > :25:32.Wales is at its lowest for six years, even so, no one is predicting
:25:33. > :25:38.they won't be the biggest party in the new assembly. The big question
:25:39. > :25:39.is, on what terms? It's clear the Welsh political landscape is
:25:40. > :25:42.shifting. If you're a Leicester fan,
:25:43. > :25:45.a football fan or just a fan those rare world-shaking sporting upsets
:25:46. > :25:47.then you'll know this weekend Leicester City FC -
:25:48. > :25:51.one of the more modest, less shouty clubs of
:25:52. > :25:53.the Premier League could well clinch An almost unfathomable
:25:54. > :25:58.turn of fortunes. At the start of the season
:25:59. > :26:02.they were 5,000-1 to win the league. If they become champions it will -
:26:03. > :26:07.in betting terms - be the greatest upset
:26:08. > :26:17.in British sporting history. You might remember Brian Clough
:26:18. > :26:22.taking Nottingham Forest from nowhere to extraordinary heights in
:26:23. > :26:30.1978-1979. The last time anything in football happen on this scale.
:26:31. > :26:33.So in this day of big money, big name, big promotion clubs how do
:26:34. > :26:37.Joining me now from Michigan is Stefan Shermanski,
:26:38. > :26:46.How unprecedented do you think this is? Does it feel like paradigms to
:26:47. > :26:50.you? It feels like something very different. Exceptional. You
:26:51. > :26:54.mentioned Brian Clough and Nottingham Forest, an extraordinary
:26:55. > :27:00.outcome. They're in mind, back then, there was far less financial gulf
:27:01. > :27:05.between the big clubs and the smaller clubs. That's what
:27:06. > :27:10.incredible. Leicester are beating teams that have spent 3-4 times as
:27:11. > :27:16.much as they have one talent. It's an extraordinary achievement. Part
:27:17. > :27:22.of the idea of Soccernomics is this sort of thing shouldn't happen,
:27:23. > :27:27.doesn't happen. Is it now recognised that it is possible. Does it change
:27:28. > :27:31.the model? Well, I think there are two things. One thing is, with all
:27:32. > :27:36.due respect to Leicester, whose achievements are wonderful, they've
:27:37. > :27:41.had a bit of luck here. They've scored relatively few goals compared
:27:42. > :27:47.to previous champions. They've really sneaked quite a number of 1-0
:27:48. > :27:52.victories, which makes them... Which makes it quite a fortunate outcome.
:27:53. > :27:58.The other thing is, big clubs have really underperformed this year. An
:27:59. > :28:01.example, typically, the team with the goal difference Leicester has
:28:02. > :28:05.this season would typically have come forth in the league in the last
:28:06. > :28:08.decade. It's a little bit of accommodation in exceptional
:28:09. > :28:11.circumstances which can always happen, of course, which is what
:28:12. > :28:15.makes sport wonderful, it's why we watch. Whether it is a change in the
:28:16. > :28:19.paradigms, I'm less sure. Not putting it down to that reburial of
:28:20. > :28:24.King Richard III which some Leicester fans think was their luck
:28:25. > :28:27.on the site? In terms of how they play, they have a smaller squad, do
:28:28. > :28:32.they play as a more concentrated unit than some of the bigger sides
:28:33. > :28:38.with all the competing egos superstars customer is it a factor?
:28:39. > :28:44.No, I honestly don't think so because if that were true we'd have
:28:45. > :28:48.seen teams doing a Leicester previous years. What is exceptional
:28:49. > :28:53.is this has come out of the blue and nothing like this has happened in
:28:54. > :28:56.decades. What is interesting is that the income inequality in the Premier
:28:57. > :29:02.League has actually been declining for the last decade or so. Mainly
:29:03. > :29:07.because of the value of overseas broadcast rights, shared equally
:29:08. > :29:11.amongst clubs. There is a trend towards inequality. It's slightly
:29:12. > :29:19.smaller teams will have more chance in future. There's a trend towards
:29:20. > :29:23.more equality, you say, now? Oh yes. That trend has been there for a
:29:24. > :29:31.number of years. The financial gap really peaked in about 2005-2006. It
:29:32. > :29:35.had been growing the previous 40 years. Now it's starting to shrink a
:29:36. > :29:40.little bit and if the trend continues, for example, I would not
:29:41. > :29:43.expect... I don't think it's that likely Leicester City will win the
:29:44. > :29:49.championship next year, but it wouldn't surprise me if another club
:29:50. > :29:55.from out of the big four work to port this off. Kretschmer could pull
:29:56. > :30:01.it off. If Leicester make it to the top, would they stick to playing as
:30:02. > :30:07.a small club or would they buy big players and change the shape of how
:30:08. > :30:12.they look now? Their history of football in England, in every
:30:13. > :30:15.country in the world, teams always try to be as big as they can
:30:16. > :30:20.possibly be. No question Leicester will try to stay on top and spend
:30:21. > :30:24.big this summer. They will make a big effort to try and sustain this.
:30:25. > :30:28.But it will be difficult. Precisely because it's such an exceptional
:30:29. > :30:32.circumstance, it'll be quite hard to sustain over time. Stefan
:30:33. > :30:36.Shermanski, thank you very much indeed. That almost it for tonight.
:30:37. > :30:39.It feels appropriate to finish with Leicester.
:30:40. > :30:41.Back to Leicester to finish, where fans today have been rallying
:30:42. > :30:43.behind their football club ahead of their historic weekend
:30:44. > :30:46.Anybody would think they're confident.
:30:47. > :31:19.# You've got me singing the blues #. # I've never felt more like running
:31:20. > :31:26.away # Why should I go cause I can't stay