:00:00. > :00:09.Newsday is coming up at midnight, now it is time for Newsnight.
:00:10. > :00:12.Project Fear steps up a gear, with warnings of conflict in Europe
:00:13. > :00:21.Really, the idea leaving Europe will create another war is beyond belief.
:00:22. > :00:25.Liam Fox will tell us whether Brexit means war or peace in Europe and war
:00:26. > :00:34.Eurozone finance ministers gathering.
:00:35. > :00:40.Syriza's former finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis,
:00:41. > :00:45.will be here to talk us through Brussels' Groundhog Day.
:00:46. > :00:49.And artist Tracey Emin on why she's an inner not an outer.
:00:50. > :00:53.We don't suddenly run away from Europe because we're in a crisis.
:00:54. > :00:56.We're on the brink of World War III with an invisible enemy.
:00:57. > :01:08.If any time Europe should stay together it's now.
:01:09. > :01:12.The elections of last week are out the way, and so now it's all
:01:13. > :01:17.And the arguments are now flying thick and fast.
:01:18. > :01:20.Some would say they are thick, and fast and loose with the facts.
:01:21. > :01:24.We have had some significant interventions, though.
:01:25. > :01:26.Yesterday, leading Leave campaigner Michael Gove spelled out clearly
:01:27. > :01:29.that he thinks if Britain does leave the EU, it should be out
:01:30. > :01:37.Today, the Prime Minister went in hard on security - the danger
:01:38. > :01:44.He was widely criticised for hyperbole.
:01:45. > :01:47.And Boris Johnson retorted that the EU itself had helped create
:01:48. > :01:52.Now, these exchanges are interesting,
:01:53. > :01:59.It's hard to argue an intellectual point with your colleagues
:02:00. > :02:04.without arousing incipient feelings of personal dislike.
:02:05. > :02:06.It's what makes this campaign so different to anything since,
:02:07. > :02:11.well, the last Europe referendum four decades ago.
:02:12. > :02:20.Here's our political editor, Nick Watt.
:02:21. > :02:25.It must be Europe day, the EU's annual celebration
:02:26. > :02:34.of seven decades of peace, if not exactly harmony on the continent.
:02:35. > :02:49.It took the most prominent exits aborted to give a rendition
:02:50. > :02:54.of Europe's national anthem, but today actually marked the
:02:55. > :02:56.resumption of Tory hostilities on Europe.
:02:57. > :02:58.The Prime Minister opened a speech on the EU's role
:02:59. > :03:03.in underpinning UK security with a swipe at the Leave campaign.
:03:04. > :03:06.The leavers have noticed that a number of European countries
:03:07. > :03:08.have negotiated separate trade arrangements with the EU.
:03:09. > :03:10.They call this collection of countries
:03:11. > :03:14.It is a patchwork of arrangements, all of them far inferior to what we
:03:15. > :03:19.They have gone on to suggest Britain might join this nonexistent zone
:03:20. > :03:27.Even the Albanian Prime Minister thought that idea a joke.
:03:28. > :03:29.Today marks the moment when the Cabinet War
:03:30. > :03:35.The Prime Minister is not amused with Michael Gove.
:03:36. > :03:38.He believes his great friend and leading light of the Vote Leave
:03:39. > :03:42.campaign gave the impression in private he would not campaign
:03:43. > :03:45.against him in the referendum, and when he decided to do so he
:03:46. > :03:51.I understand Michael Gove is saying he does not
:03:52. > :03:58.If I was the Prime Minister, I think I would be disappointed
:03:59. > :04:07.Michael Gove is one of the great intellectual powerhouses of this
:04:08. > :04:10.government, and he has chosen to, as it were, take opposite sides to
:04:11. > :04:16.the Prime Minister and to do so with a vengeance, but this is business.
:04:17. > :04:19.At the end of this, personal feuds and disagreements will be forgotten.
:04:20. > :04:24.Hard words that have been exchanged will be put in the back pocket
:04:25. > :04:31.and we will come together and move forward.
:04:32. > :04:33.Michael Gove's allies were dismissive of what they saw
:04:34. > :04:39.What you are seeing is a certain amount of panic
:04:40. > :04:42.on the part of the Remain campaign headed by the Prime Minister.
:04:43. > :05:00.The idea of leaving Europe creating another war is beyond belief.
:05:01. > :05:03.It came after the Prime Minister broke the old John Cleese rule,
:05:04. > :05:05.don't mention the war, as he invoked memories of Churchill's
:05:06. > :05:08.stand in 1940 to demonstrate the dangers of isolationism.
:05:09. > :05:12.Winston Churchill saw an argument for a United States of Europe.
:05:13. > :05:15.He did not want us to be a part of it.
:05:16. > :05:17.The grandson of Britain's wartime leader believes he would
:05:18. > :05:24.The last thing he would want is to stand apart from Europe
:05:25. > :05:35.There is something not British in my view about wanting to leave.
:05:36. > :05:41.I think he would not think it is a good thing to leave.
:05:42. > :05:44.I think he would have wanted to stay.
:05:45. > :05:47.Today saw the opening of the Eurovision Song Contest week
:05:48. > :05:52.The final will be a model of friendly competition with no
:05:53. > :05:58.David Cameron will hope that whatever the result
:05:59. > :06:04.on his big night, it will not be nil points for Conservative unity.
:06:05. > :06:08.We hope to talk to Liam Fox about the Conservative Party and security
:06:09. > :06:14.There has been the late vote in the house.
:06:15. > :06:17.There are some other politics going on, of course.
:06:18. > :06:19.Labour still working out whether to be relieved or distraught
:06:20. > :06:24.Our political editor, Nick Watt, is with me.
:06:25. > :06:27.Parliamentary Labour Party met today.
:06:28. > :06:32.Before the meeting took place, there was a meeting between Jeremy Corbyn
:06:33. > :06:40.They had a 30-minute discussion in his offices in Westminster.
:06:41. > :06:45.It was described as friendly and constructive.
:06:46. > :06:47.They talked about issues they have in common and
:06:48. > :06:50.are vital to the mayor, transport and housing, then they moved to
:06:51. > :07:00.Sadiq Khan gave what was described as a barnstorming speech, basically
:07:01. > :07:03.reading out his article at the weekend when he said Labour will
:07:04. > :07:08.only win if it attracts non-Labour voters, if it is pro-business,
:07:09. > :07:15.I am told by a source that at one point he said we can only
:07:16. > :07:18.change people's lives in office, and at that point he glanced
:07:19. > :07:23.Do you think things are coming down in the Labour Party?
:07:24. > :07:26.The Jeremy Corbyn camp are convinced things are coming down.
:07:27. > :07:28.They say you have the Sadiq Khan victory in London
:07:29. > :07:41.The first major European city with a black mayor.
:07:42. > :07:43.They would say these are increased turnouts
:07:44. > :07:46.and that Jeremy Corbyn is reaching voters.
:07:47. > :07:49.They will say they are making progress
:07:50. > :07:55.Critics agree there will be no coup, but they do not believe
:07:56. > :07:59.Jeremy Corbyn has had success in the elections.
:08:00. > :08:02.There were MPs who raised pretty testy questions to Jeremy Corbyn
:08:03. > :08:09.at one point when he said Labour had done well in Wales.
:08:10. > :08:12.Peter Hain said, "But our vote went down by eight percentage points,
:08:13. > :08:19.One person said Jeremy Corbyn talked about how Labour had done
:08:20. > :08:24.well, citing Labour-strong areas, and this person said it was
:08:25. > :08:31.We will get back to Liam Fox when he gets here.
:08:32. > :08:34.Over the course of the campaign, we are giving airtime to ordinary
:08:35. > :08:40.people to set out their view of the Leave versus Remain dilemma.
:08:41. > :08:42.When I say ordinary people, I mean extraordinary people who are
:08:43. > :08:48.We saw the Scottish billionaire Tom Hunter last week.
:08:49. > :08:50.And today's contributor is the artist Tracey Emin,
:08:51. > :09:06.I really enjoy having my British identity, I'm totally London,
:09:07. > :09:11.And when I go to France or Germany, or wherever I go in Europe,
:09:12. > :09:16.I flaunt that to the best of my ability and I'm not ashamed of it.
:09:17. > :09:21.I'm also very proud and happy to be part of Europe, especially being an
:09:22. > :09:28.artist and being within a creative industry, in terms of export.
:09:29. > :09:32.You know, being an artist, I work with Europe constantly.
:09:33. > :09:36.A lot of my collectors, a lot of the museums are in Europe.
:09:37. > :09:38.I just think it's absolute insanity to come out of Europe,
:09:39. > :09:45.We are on the brink of World War III with an invisible enemy.
:09:46. > :09:50.If any time Europe should stay together it's now.
:09:51. > :09:56.Britain hasn't had a war with any country in Europe since 1945.
:09:57. > :09:59.There's a really big reason for that.
:10:00. > :10:07.And he obviously wants to be the next Prime Minister.
:10:08. > :10:11.But how can we have a Prime Minister that doesn't want to be part
:10:12. > :10:15.It doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.
:10:16. > :10:16.Another thing that's very worrying is young people.
:10:17. > :10:19.Young people get very excited by change, and they don't know
:10:20. > :10:22.the full argument, they don't remember what it was
:10:23. > :10:29.And of course, like everything, there is the ups and downs.
:10:30. > :10:35.We don't suddenly run away from Europe because we are in a crisis.
:10:36. > :10:37.People don't understand the catastrophic effects if we come
:10:38. > :10:40.out of Europe, and the lack of confidence that other countries and
:10:41. > :10:46.It won't make us look strong and independent,
:10:47. > :10:53.it will make us look weak and fragile, because we will be.
:10:54. > :10:56.Few people think Europe has covered itself in much glory over
:10:57. > :10:59.the last year, as migrants and refugees have come to the
:11:00. > :11:05.In a new book called The New Odyssey, the Guardian's
:11:06. > :11:07.migration correspondent, Patrick Kingsley, calls it pitiful and makes
:11:08. > :11:14.the case for Europe to take more responsibility for those who come.
:11:15. > :11:17.The book takes us through human stories that aim to make refugees'
:11:18. > :11:22.experiences more real and more personal.
:11:23. > :11:26.As is David Goodhart, director of the Integration Hub
:11:27. > :11:33.Patrick Kingsley, describe what you think should happen.
:11:34. > :11:36.A refugee from war-torn Syria comes through Lebanon, gets
:11:37. > :11:51.The issue is that whether we like it or not, people will keep on coming.
:11:52. > :11:55.We need to create a system that allows Europe to uphold ethical
:11:56. > :11:59.standards while at the same time making the system more manageable,
:12:00. > :12:02.because at the moment we have a chaotic process in which people
:12:03. > :12:12.I suggest that we give people an incentive to stay put
:12:13. > :12:15.in the Middle East in the short-term and we do that by creating legal
:12:16. > :12:20.and formal means for people to get to Europe in the long-term.
:12:21. > :12:24.At the moment there is no incentive for people to stay put in Turkey,
:12:25. > :12:35.Rather than taking a boat across the Mediterranean.
:12:36. > :12:39.What numbers and how will we choose which people come?
:12:40. > :12:45.Do you take every number who want to get on a plane and get to Europe?
:12:46. > :12:50.What I suggest is we take far more by legal means than currently.
:12:51. > :12:53.We take small thousands of people, and that is not enough because it is
:12:54. > :12:57.not persuading people there is a legal means to get to Europe, and as
:12:58. > :13:09.Somebody who is a middle income person in Nigeria who pays to sail
:13:10. > :13:14.across the African route into Italy and get into Europe that way,
:13:15. > :13:25.First, it is a small minority of people coming to Europe last year.
:13:26. > :13:28.The majority were Syrians, Afghans, Iraqis, from war-torn countries.
:13:29. > :13:35.Not everyone from Nigeria is an economic migrant.
:13:36. > :13:41.But third, if they do not have a right to asylum, they should be
:13:42. > :13:43.sent back, but let's not pretend they are the majority
:13:44. > :13:51.David Goodhart, what do you make of the argument?
:13:52. > :13:54.I think what Patrick says and the refugee lobby, it is well meaning.
:13:55. > :14:04.I think they underestimate our ability to control borders
:14:05. > :14:07.when the political will is there, and overestimate our ability to
:14:08. > :14:13.There is a good example of the first point.
:14:14. > :14:19.Between Patrick finishing his book and it being published, we have
:14:20. > :14:23.discovered we can control the flows through the eastern Mediterranean.
:14:24. > :14:30.They have done that because we have done the dirty deal
:14:31. > :14:33.with an authoritarian Turkey, and that is not very pleasant.
:14:34. > :14:39.But it was a necessary thing to do to break momentum.
:14:40. > :14:42.It was also the fence at Macedonia that made it difficult to get
:14:43. > :14:50.That is also about brain drain from the countries that are sending
:14:51. > :14:59.people here, or that people are coming from.
:15:00. > :15:01.When in a country like Eritrea the story becomes you
:15:02. > :15:04.can only have a good life when you leave the country,
:15:05. > :15:10.Last summer, when so many people were coming,
:15:11. > :15:13.and according to the number two in the EU, 60% of the people coming
:15:14. > :15:26.That is creating an unsustainable flow into Europe and problems.
:15:27. > :15:30.Your book effectively makes this point, that a lot of us believe,
:15:31. > :15:33.you can't stop people with ever taller fences.
:15:34. > :15:39.David's talking a short-term scenario.
:15:40. > :15:46.We have seen a deal which has stopped people coming -
:15:47. > :15:52.There's a much wider sea between France and England.
:15:53. > :15:57.If you look at a longer term scenario, you look at the history of
:15:58. > :16:01.migratory patterns towards Europe over 30 years, when you put up one
:16:02. > :16:04.against around the Spanish enclaves in Morocco people kept coming.
:16:05. > :16:13.Third fence, Canary Islands people came here.
:16:14. > :16:16.No, we had a deal in the western Mediterranean that worked perfectly
:16:17. > :16:19.well, in some ways it's a model for what's happening now.
:16:20. > :16:27.It is not ethical to attract all those people as Angela Merkel
:16:28. > :16:34.We are not helping the most vulnerable.
:16:35. > :16:37.The people coming are the most educated, often,
:16:38. > :16:42.Often the most affluent too, they can afford to pay the traffickers.
:16:43. > :16:46.David's saying that we should off-load this problem to
:16:47. > :16:52.86% of refugees are in the developing world.
:16:53. > :17:01.In the short-term any country can deal with a huge influx of people.
:17:02. > :17:04.Can you really expect a country as dysfunctional
:17:05. > :17:07.as Lebanon to take on one million refugees when we can't take on afew
:17:08. > :17:19.No, but people want to stay, if they can, to stay as close
:17:20. > :17:26.If they can't put their children in schools, they will vote with
:17:27. > :17:36.We do have obligations to the people in wretched situations.
:17:37. > :17:40.We do not have to default to come and live in Shepherds Bush.
:17:41. > :17:43.We can help by becoming better at building temporary towns with
:17:44. > :17:48.clinics, schools, with jobs too, so that people can stay
:17:49. > :17:54.in the neighbourhood without losing all hope.
:17:55. > :18:01.The EU should take over from the UNHCR or work together to
:18:02. > :18:12.That's been the strategy for five years with Syria.
:18:13. > :18:15.We wouldn't have even 850,000 people come by irregular means last year
:18:16. > :18:26.In the last few days, Kenya has said they won't take any more refugees.
:18:27. > :18:29.They're disbanding the ministry for refugees,
:18:30. > :18:33.They have the largest refugee camp in the world.
:18:34. > :18:40.This country has had to deal with the brunt of the European policy
:18:41. > :18:42.of outsourcing refugee care. We should be helping those countries
:18:43. > :18:56.Patrick, in your book you go through the case of a Syrian who is off to
:18:57. > :18:59.Sweden, is it a moral duty to resettle him permanently in Sweden?
:19:00. > :19:04.Or would it be reasonable for Europe to say,
:19:05. > :19:09.we will give you temporary sanctuary until things improve back home?
:19:10. > :19:12.It might be the people of Europe would be less reserved about this
:19:13. > :19:14.if they didn't think it was a million permanent settlers,
:19:15. > :19:19.I don't know if it needs to come to that.
:19:20. > :19:25.As David says, they want to remain close to home.
:19:26. > :19:28.Only when the situation becomes unviable close to home do they want
:19:29. > :19:33.They want to go back to Syria and rebuild Syria in the future.
:19:34. > :19:36.Really, personally I think we should leave it up to the people
:19:37. > :19:43.I suspect it won't come to saying well, you have to stay three, four,
:19:44. > :19:57.As Britain debates Brexit, students at the University of Lincoln have
:19:58. > :20:01.voted for Lexit - leaving the National Union of Students.
:20:02. > :20:04.It's not the only college to have put the question
:20:05. > :20:11.The dissent is down to the election of a new NUS
:20:12. > :20:18.She's made various controversial comments,
:20:19. > :20:20.calling the University of Birmingham a Zionist outpost, for example.
:20:21. > :20:24.And as a black students officer, she has worked on campaigns,
:20:25. > :20:29.A left-wing student body, hardly man bites dog in the news stakes.
:20:30. > :20:32.But it will be a big issue if others follow Lincoln.
:20:33. > :20:38.Shelly Asquith is vice-president of welfare at the NUS.
:20:39. > :20:47.Is it true that the NUS executive is much more left-wing than the average
:20:48. > :20:54.I don't think that's necessarily the case.
:20:55. > :20:59.Our conference is the largest democratic event
:21:00. > :21:06.That's who elected myself and our new Student Union president.
:21:07. > :21:09.Those delegates had a mandate from tens of thousands of students
:21:10. > :21:17.We are maybe seeing a shift in the political outlook
:21:18. > :21:20.of students and young people across the UK as this Government
:21:21. > :21:22.wages war on their bursaries, grants, triples tuition fees.
:21:23. > :21:31.Do you think it's reasonable for a student body that thinks you're
:21:32. > :21:34.worried about things like, that just don't bother their students, is it
:21:35. > :21:37.reasonable to say, hang on, we're paying ?50,000 or something to be
:21:38. > :21:41.part of the NUS, we just don't feel you're representative.
:21:42. > :21:43.Do you hear what those disaffiliating universities
:21:44. > :21:52.As you say, I was out on the campus Exeter today and speaking
:21:53. > :21:59.The response I was getting was largely really positive.
:22:00. > :22:01.When we go and sell the benefits of NUS to students,
:22:02. > :22:05.There's been scare stories recently, people are talking about how much
:22:06. > :22:13.What students don't know is that the benefits are greater than the cost
:22:14. > :22:17.they pay in their affiliation fees, Lincoln makes ?150,000 whereas it
:22:18. > :22:20.only affiliates a fraction of that in the resources it gets from NUS.
:22:21. > :22:24.That's not always completely apparent.
:22:25. > :22:27.They have the larger benefits of being part of union, our lobbying
:22:28. > :22:34.We need to make those things clearer.
:22:35. > :22:36.Something like 20% to 25% of students are calling to are
:22:37. > :22:41.basically identifying themselves as Conservative.
:22:42. > :22:45.Are they represented by the NUS or should they say,
:22:46. > :22:49.frankly, I don't feel represented by it and I don't want to be part
:22:50. > :22:54.I don't know about those figures of which students consider
:22:55. > :23:03.Obviously, we're not a party political union.
:23:04. > :23:06.We have a range of politics. You have political views on everything.
:23:07. > :23:09.The president is to the left, let us say.
:23:10. > :23:16.We have a Tory who just was elected as well.
:23:17. > :23:19.The referendum today at Lincoln, there was less than 13% turnout.
:23:20. > :23:22.The margin which decided the vote was less than 1% of students.
:23:23. > :23:25.It happened right in the middle of exam time.
:23:26. > :23:28.I'm concerned that there's a small minority of students that
:23:29. > :23:30.are taking this position, compared to our conference,
:23:31. > :23:37.We need to make sure we're engaging with the membership as much
:23:38. > :23:39.as possible in coming weeks as these referendums arise
:23:40. > :23:42.and talk about the great benefits of being part of a collective union.
:23:43. > :23:50.Well let's return to the row over the EU and security.
:23:51. > :23:53.In a moment, we'll speak to Liam Fox, the former Defence
:23:54. > :23:56.Secretary, and a leading campaigner for Britain to leave the EU.
:23:57. > :23:59.But first, let's get a taste of the back and forth
:24:00. > :24:03.First, the Prime Minister raised the spectre of war in Europe,
:24:04. > :24:08.Serried rows of white headstones in lovingly tended Commonwealth war
:24:09. > :24:12.cemeteries stand as silent testament to the price
:24:13. > :24:19.that this country has paid to help restore peace and order in Europe.
:24:20. > :24:22.Can we be so sure that peace and stability on our continent are
:24:23. > :24:32.I would never be so rash as to make that assumption.
:24:33. > :24:34.The Leave side rather took exception to Mr Cameron's
:24:35. > :24:36.suggestion that voting to leave could have dire consequences.
:24:37. > :24:39.Here's former Mayor of London, Boris Johnson.
:24:40. > :24:45.I think it very, very curious that the Prime Minister is now calling
:24:46. > :24:48.this referendum and warning us that World War III is about to break out
:24:49. > :24:54.I think that is not the most powerful argument I've heard.
:24:55. > :24:57.Everybody knows that peace in Europe over the last 60,
:24:58. > :25:02.70 years has been guaranteed by the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
:25:03. > :25:06.So let's ask Liam Fox to weigh in here.
:25:07. > :25:15.Five Nato secretary generals have written a letter this evening
:25:16. > :25:17.expressing concern that Britain might leave the EU, saying the
:25:18. > :25:23.impositions of sanctions on Iran and Russia, led from within the EU by
:25:24. > :25:26.the UK, has been a striking example of the importance
:25:27. > :25:35.What's going on here is that your side keeps talking about Nato,
:25:36. > :25:38.yet when you talk to the Nato people they say stay in the EU.
:25:39. > :25:42.First of all, you have to accept as the Prime Minister said today,
:25:43. > :25:45.there's no reason why we couldn't get some relations
:25:46. > :25:50.in the issues you mention on sanctions for example, in bilateral
:25:51. > :25:55.arrangements, or even through some EU arrangements themselves.
:25:56. > :25:58.I think that you need to look at this picture in the round.
:25:59. > :26:02.I'm not one much those who says that everything that the EU has done has
:26:03. > :26:05.I personally believe the ability to bring Spain,
:26:06. > :26:08.Greece and Portugal from military dictatorships was one of the things
:26:09. > :26:15.It was able to act as a beacon for those countries under
:26:16. > :26:18.the Soviet Oppression and show them there was an alternative future
:26:19. > :26:27.But I don't think that the European Union understood the significance of
:26:28. > :26:31.the fall of the Berlin Wall and I think it stuck to an old trajectory
:26:32. > :26:35.set in the 1950s, in a world which is very different, and again those
:26:36. > :26:38.very positive elements I mention, you have the great EU disaster that
:26:39. > :26:43.was the Balkans, 100,000 dead because of Europe's dithering
:26:44. > :26:49.and the inability of the European Union to get its act together.
:26:50. > :26:52.You have to look at them on both sides.
:26:53. > :26:55.As far as Nato's concerned, my worry is that you have far too few
:26:56. > :26:58.European countries pulling their weight inside Nato, seeing the EU
:26:59. > :27:02.as some sort of soft option for them in terms of defence, with the US
:27:03. > :27:05.therefore having to carry 72% of Nato's budget this year.
:27:06. > :27:12.Do you think it will get better if we leave the
:27:13. > :27:15.EU, that the Europeans will put more into Nato if Britain isn't there?
:27:16. > :27:17.One of the things people argue is that
:27:18. > :27:21.by us being there, we are making the case that ties Europe to Nato better
:27:22. > :27:28.But there's another argument that is stronger, that is that while Britain
:27:29. > :27:33.is there, us being the fifth biggest military budget
:27:34. > :27:36.in the world, it gives the EU the belief that it's got capabilities
:27:37. > :27:47.There are those in the European project who've always seen Nato
:27:48. > :27:50.as an impediment to the concept of ever closer union, because it
:27:51. > :27:56.Britain outside the European Union would make it clear that
:27:57. > :28:01.the European Union itself has very little defence capability.
:28:02. > :28:04.It needs to have that, as well as its contribution to Nato,
:28:05. > :28:08.it ends the pretence of what's a dangerous delusion.
:28:09. > :28:12.I don't want the whole debate to be just what other people are saying.
:28:13. > :28:16.It's interesting the Times tomorrow morning is carrying a letter from 13
:28:17. > :28:21.former US secretaries of state and defence and national security
:28:22. > :28:24.advisors to say that the Britain's place and influence in the world
:28:25. > :28:26.would be diminished and Europe would be dangerously
:28:27. > :28:32.That's Republicans, Democrats, you have George Schultz who worked
:28:33. > :28:37.The entire defence and security establishment that you want us to be
:28:38. > :28:40.part of and are relying on as a substitute or complement to the
:28:41. > :28:51.I think that a lot of those people are from very different era
:28:52. > :28:57.I can understand why they would have thought that then.
:28:58. > :28:59.We're entering into a different period in terms
:29:00. > :29:04.I happen to believe that the United Kingdom outside the European Union
:29:05. > :29:07.would actually give an impetus to the political aspects of Nato, which
:29:08. > :29:16.I think they would give a bit of a kick to some of those European
:29:17. > :29:19.countries who seem to believe that we can do the heavy lifting
:29:20. > :29:23.in terms of hard power and they can do the soft power elements.
:29:24. > :29:25.That's not how it works in the world.
:29:26. > :29:29.If you want to be a peacekeeper, there has to be a peace to keep.
:29:30. > :29:34.Can you explain what Boris Johnson's point was today.
:29:35. > :29:37.He made the argument that the EU, far from creating security,
:29:38. > :29:44.He said it was an example of policy making on the hoof,
:29:45. > :29:46.pretensions with the defence policy caused real trouble.
:29:47. > :29:52.There are those who think the EU's arrangements with Ukraine were
:29:53. > :29:55.provocative from a Russian perspective.
:29:56. > :30:09.Other Leave politicians have made the point,
:30:10. > :30:13.but a lot of people are saying that's just a blatant argument that
:30:14. > :30:23.Yes, the point I'm coming to is that it doesn't matter
:30:24. > :30:26.whether it's true or not. I want to know whether you believe it.
:30:27. > :30:31.But is it the case that Europe provoked Putin and thus caused
:30:32. > :30:34.instability or do you think Europe was doing a good thing
:30:35. > :30:41.by trying to help Ukraine, if it wanted to leave the Russian ambit?
:30:42. > :30:46.It was seen as provocative by Russia.
:30:47. > :30:49.My view is that Russia has no right to determine what they call their
:30:50. > :30:53.near abroad, in other words, having a veto on the security policies
:30:54. > :30:56.You are completely at odds with Boris Johnson on this
:30:57. > :31:03.I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive.
:31:04. > :31:06.I just don't think that Russia has a right to have the opinions that
:31:07. > :31:09.it has at the present time about its neighbours, countries are
:31:10. > :31:17.Just as Poland or the Baltic states have a right to self-determination,
:31:18. > :31:23.Just a quick last one, is your hope that if Britain leaves,
:31:24. > :31:28.other countries will also leave and that the EU may dismantle?
:31:29. > :31:30.Michael Gove has called it a democratic liberation
:31:31. > :31:39.Is that conducive to stability in Europe?
:31:40. > :31:46.I want those who are in charge of Europe
:31:47. > :31:48.at the present time recognise that they're going in a fundamentally
:31:49. > :31:51.flawed direction, they're creating the rise of nationalism across
:31:52. > :31:56.Europe with extreme political parties getting more powerful.
:31:57. > :31:59.We're seeing a whole generation of young Europeans sacrifices on the
:32:00. > :32:03.altar of the single currency, with the social problems that brings and
:32:04. > :32:06.is likely to bring security problems in its wake, and that's before we
:32:07. > :32:08.get to the mass migration that's made easier
:32:09. > :32:15.I hope that a British exit would actually bring to the senses those
:32:16. > :32:17.taking Europe in the wrong direction before they bring
:32:18. > :32:26.I hope that Britain can actually, for the third time in a century,
:32:27. > :32:37.Greece has gone quiet since its referendum last year on the euro.
:32:38. > :32:40.You'll remember that it voted to reject the conditions being imposed
:32:41. > :32:45.That vote didn't have much effect, and the country is now accepting
:32:46. > :32:49.That's because Greece wanted to stay in the euro,
:32:50. > :32:52.and it needed the money to do so, and it came with strings attached.
:32:53. > :32:56.The Syriza government split, so now Prime Minister Tsipras is still
:32:57. > :33:11.in charge, relying on right-wing MPs to impose austerity measures.
:33:12. > :33:15.Another summer, and yet again Athens has been beset by strikes,
:33:16. > :33:16.protesting against more austerity for the
:33:17. > :33:22.struggling Greek economy, a cycle the country can't break out of.
:33:23. > :33:24.Yesterday the parliament voted for a new round
:33:25. > :33:27.of austerity and pension changes designed to appease the IMF
:33:28. > :33:34.They say Greece has to make changes to access the next slice
:33:35. > :33:43.What the Greeks really want is debt relief, something that would ease
:33:44. > :33:45.the burden permanently rather than just let them borrow more to pay
:33:46. > :33:56.It seems a long time ago Syriza, the most radical party, was elected.
:33:57. > :33:58.One of its leading lights was Yanis Varoufakis, rock star
:33:59. > :34:08.He tried to get a better deal from the EU but failed.
:34:09. > :34:15.that Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party face.
:34:16. > :34:19.He has moved onto other things, not least advising the Labour Party
:34:20. > :34:27.His latest economic adviser, Yanis Varoufakis.
:34:28. > :34:38.He was the Greek Finance Minister who left his economy in ruins.
:34:39. > :34:40.That is Labour's policy in two words -
:34:41. > :34:51.Is it better in or out of the euro now?
:34:52. > :35:00.But once we were in, getting out is not going to take you to where you
:35:01. > :35:08.Because you do not have a currency to do value,
:35:09. > :35:11.it is not like you have your own currency, you have to create it.
:35:12. > :35:14.It is the equivalent of announcing it before it happens,
:35:15. > :35:22.Once you are in, you better try to make it work.
:35:23. > :35:26.The government had no choice because it has not been in a position to say
:35:27. > :35:31.That is not quite right, my policy in the ministry was a campaign
:35:32. > :35:44.I was saying something anyone should have said, that is, I am not going
:35:45. > :35:47.to take another penny of your money unless I can guarantee there is
:35:48. > :35:53.It does not mean you are getting out, you are saying if we don't come
:35:54. > :36:00.to a rational, honourable agreement, we will default.
:36:01. > :36:10.The third day in the ministry, the president threatened to me that
:36:11. > :36:14.until and unless we sign up to the previous failed fiscal policy
:36:15. > :36:20.that we were elected to challenge, our banks would be closed anyway.
:36:21. > :36:23.David Cameron has to make up his mind.
:36:24. > :36:31.Is it true, and I believe it is, that the Eurozone has used this
:36:32. > :36:35.in order to keep Greece in the debt prison, or is it true I
:36:36. > :36:41.Are you on the side of the protesters today?
:36:42. > :36:46.Would you be there in the streets if you were there?
:36:47. > :36:54.What is happening now is an assault on logic.
:36:55. > :36:58.Whenever logic is assaulted, you end up with people suffering.
:36:59. > :37:02.The truth is that they are willing, what Greece wants is debt relief,
:37:03. > :37:04.a write-off of some of the debts to get itself
:37:05. > :37:11.They have started talking about it today for the first time because who
:37:12. > :37:29.If you read the letter the managing director of IMF sent to
:37:30. > :37:31.the finance ministers a few days ago,
:37:32. > :37:34.what she was she was saying was precisely what I was saying
:37:35. > :37:38.They are doing it the wrong way round, they are
:37:39. > :37:44.The reason why one needs in the debt deflation spiral, debt
:37:45. > :37:55.We hear the high surplus targets
:37:56. > :38:03.and they think, they are going to tax us, and they do not invest.
:38:04. > :38:06.You need debt relief is so you can have a target to attract
:38:07. > :38:09.investment to allow growth and allow you to recover and repay debts.
:38:10. > :38:11.Now they are imposing an exorbitant 3.5%
:38:12. > :38:18.What is the point of debt relief if we are destroyed by austerity?
:38:19. > :38:20.There is a discussion to be had about whether
:38:21. > :38:25.they want to see action, reform, liberalisation, before they yield.
:38:26. > :38:35.What is really going on, there is a titanic battle between
:38:36. > :38:42.And at the same time Paris versus Berlin.
:38:43. > :38:44.A little mouse that is being squashed, Greece,
:38:45. > :38:49.while the elephants tussle to work out their differences.
:38:50. > :39:06.If you are on the left, as you are, is it not a capitalist club?
:39:07. > :39:18.Pretending there is an alternative to capitalism tomorrow is not to
:39:19. > :39:26.We are facing a debt deflation crisis in most of Europe.
:39:27. > :39:32.Britain, thankfully, is not in the euro, so you are not
:39:33. > :39:36.in the same mire as the rest, but you are not out of the woods.
:39:37. > :39:40.Brexit will do two things - first it will fail to restore
:39:41. > :39:43.your sovereignty to the House of Commons, while at the same time...
:39:44. > :39:54.Second it will speed up the process of disintegration of Europe.
:39:55. > :39:57.There is no doubt Brexit will start a chain reaction
:39:58. > :40:00.of either formal or informal detachments and the results will be
:40:01. > :40:07.a deflationary vortex from which the British economy will not survive.
:40:08. > :40:12.Because you are part of the single market.
:40:13. > :40:15.Get out of the single market, of which is the latest Michael Gove
:40:16. > :40:21.To his credit, because there is a logical coherence in what he
:40:22. > :40:26.The process of disentangling Britain from the single market will be
:40:27. > :40:35.I am glad Michael Gove is being logically coherent, but do you
:40:36. > :40:41.really believe the Tory government and Boris Johnson would do this?
:40:42. > :40:44.It is hard for me to see that happening.
:40:45. > :40:53.Tomorrow the show will be from Boston in Lincolnshire,
:40:54. > :40:56.and we will take a look at perhaps the most impassioned
:40:57. > :41:22.Hello. We started the new week with very differing fortunes across the
:41:23. > :41:23.UK. I will show you