:00:10. > :00:11.Facing destruction, or business as usual?
:00:12. > :00:13.Where will the BBC be this time tomorrow?
:00:14. > :00:16.The government is to set out its plans to change the way it's run.
:00:17. > :00:18.If it didn't already exist you wouldn't invent it,
:00:19. > :00:23.But it does work in practice and so it would be an act
:00:24. > :00:33.of vandalism to get rid of it from a purely Tory point of view.
:00:34. > :00:34.to independent public service broadcasting.
:00:35. > :00:49.Censorship in China. Hello and welcome to BBC World News, what
:00:50. > :00:51.happened to the golden era of British relations...
:00:52. > :00:54.The Chinese evidently don't want to know what the Queen said about them.
:00:55. > :00:57.So tonight we'll ask where relations between Britain and China now stand
:00:58. > :01:00.and bring you fresh clues about what caused the row.
:01:01. > :01:03.And a rare chance to hear from the mime artist who inspired -
:01:04. > :01:05.Splendid, shining, always inspired creature.
:01:06. > :01:23.When he was on the backbenches, Culture Secretary John Whittingdale
:01:24. > :01:26.was for years pre-occupied by the BBC and the media landscape.
:01:27. > :01:28.He was seen as a critic, describing the licence fee
:01:29. > :01:34.Well, tomorrow, from the front bench, he gets to actually shape
:01:35. > :01:36.policy, with a White Paper on the BBC, and the renewal
:01:37. > :01:42.That poll tax will survive but there will be changes to the way
:01:43. > :01:54.It's all about whether the Government will end up having
:01:55. > :01:58.too much say in who runs the corporation.
:01:59. > :02:01.Now, just before we get into this, the key background you need
:02:02. > :02:03.is that there are two BBC boards at the moment, the real
:02:04. > :02:06.one that runs the BBC, and is appointed by the BBC.
:02:07. > :02:08.And the BBC Trust that supervises the BBC and is
:02:09. > :02:19.Our political editor Nick Watt is with me.
:02:20. > :02:26.What do you know about what will be in this white Paper? I have been
:02:27. > :02:28.talking to my sources. There is an official government note out of
:02:29. > :02:32.which cannot be reported until midnight. The government has decided
:02:33. > :02:38.it does not want another row will stop it has the junior doctors and
:02:39. > :02:43.teachers on its back. It looks like they have reigned in the culture
:02:44. > :02:47.Department through an intervention. -- another row. The want to say that
:02:48. > :02:54.they are protecting its historic independence. You will see this in
:02:55. > :02:57.the new board. What they will suggest is that the BBC will have
:02:58. > :03:02.the ability to ensure that it, not the government, can have a majority
:03:03. > :03:07.of members on that board. The government will appoint the chair,
:03:08. > :03:13.the deputy chair, but they will have to consult for the nations and
:03:14. > :03:20.regions. Then the BBC will have to decide so it can have a majority.
:03:21. > :03:23.And the medium remit, inform, entertain, and educate, that will be
:03:24. > :03:29.there but there will be some tweaks on the remit. With regards to the
:03:30. > :03:33.things we have been told to prepare for, it sounds like it has been a
:03:34. > :03:40.bit Watership Down. Will it still be controversial? There will be
:03:41. > :03:47.concerns. The Tories, Labour and Lib Dem people will say, is there not
:03:48. > :03:50.some interfering on the board? Some senior Tory members are concerned
:03:51. > :03:56.about the chair of the current trust. There is a suggestion she
:03:57. > :03:59.will move to be the new head of the new board. Words that she is not
:04:00. > :04:04.very effective and was appointed by George Osborne and perhaps we need a
:04:05. > :04:07.bit more independence. Labour politicians, some mainstream ones,
:04:08. > :04:12.will be saying we don't like the way the left of the Labour Party have
:04:13. > :04:14.been attacking the BBC. But this has been a debate within the
:04:15. > :04:18.Conservative Party so we thought we would take a look at the
:04:19. > :04:24.Conservative relationship with the BBC down the decades.
:04:25. > :04:31.A national treasure is celebrating his 90th birthday this week.
:04:32. > :04:36.Prompting joy amongst his friends and a rare moment of consensus
:04:37. > :04:39.amongst our political leaders. Would the Prime Minister join me in
:04:40. > :04:44.wishing Sir David Attenborough a very happy 90th birthday. I
:04:45. > :04:48.certainly join you in wishing a very happy birthday to David
:04:49. > :04:56.Attenborough. Sir David Attenborough is pretty much the same age as the
:04:57. > :05:00.BBC. Since the early days of public broadcasting in the 1920s arguments
:05:01. > :05:06.have raged about the BBC's role. At this year is no exception. Following
:05:07. > :05:12.the lefty Lovie exterior at the weekend, does my right honourable
:05:13. > :05:16.friend agree that scrapping the discredit of BBC trust, asking for
:05:17. > :05:19.more transparency in a publicly funded organisation, and wanted the
:05:20. > :05:23.BBC to be instinctive and impartial is hardly the end of public service
:05:24. > :05:27.broadcasting as we know it. CHUCKLES
:05:28. > :05:31.The Conservative Party has had tortured relationship with the BBC.
:05:32. > :05:39.Conflicting emotions about its place in our life 's world within the
:05:40. > :05:42.heart of many a Tory. There are many conservatives that dislike anything
:05:43. > :05:53.that seemed to be a publicly funded state institution. -- in our life
:05:54. > :05:57.swirled. There are things that reflect the national character. It
:05:58. > :06:02.would be an act of vandalism to get rid of it, from a Tory point of
:06:03. > :06:09.view, because it is an institution that works. When you think of people
:06:10. > :06:14.who like Strictly, who like the Archers, they are mostly
:06:15. > :06:17.conservatives. The culture Secretary John Whittingdale knows the danger
:06:18. > :06:22.of crossing Ambridge fans as he embarks on the first renewal in 20
:06:23. > :06:29.years by a Conservative government of the BBC royal charter. What is
:06:30. > :06:31.interesting is that even in the 80s when there were concerned up and
:06:32. > :06:37.down Westminster and Whitehall about the political passing of the BBC.
:06:38. > :06:44.Mrs Thatcher was still not willing to take serious political measures
:06:45. > :06:49.which would have constraint it. These instincts often coexist within
:06:50. > :06:54.the same politicians. -- constrain it. That is because they understand
:06:55. > :07:00.and admire many of the things the BBC does. David Attenborough's
:07:01. > :07:04.birthday this week is a classic example of that. They're also very
:07:05. > :07:07.concerned about the effective and fair proper spending of public money
:07:08. > :07:13.in a license fee arrangement which socially quite regressive. Memories
:07:14. > :07:17.of the rows between the BBC and the Thatcher government still run deep,
:07:18. > :07:20.particularly over the reporting of Northern Ireland and the miners
:07:21. > :07:24.strike. The BBC director-general lost his job after the man appointed
:07:25. > :07:28.by the Margaret Thatcher to chair the board of governments flexed his
:07:29. > :07:32.muscles. One figure at the heart of some of those rows in the 1980s
:07:33. > :07:38.dismisses fears that history will repeat itself. Absolutely that is
:07:39. > :07:44.not crossing the line. When I was the controller of BBC One misses
:07:45. > :07:48.that was at the height of her powers. She packed the board with
:07:49. > :07:54.one of us and the processes today for appointments, even if government
:07:55. > :08:00.appointments, these are public appointments, everybody knows about
:08:01. > :08:05.it, there are no secret votes, no jobs for friends, it doesn't happen
:08:06. > :08:11.any more, it is much more open. -- this was at the height. Others
:08:12. > :08:14.disagree. There needs to be clear distance between the government of
:08:15. > :08:22.the day and the people who are deciding when and where and how the
:08:23. > :08:26.BBC is covering news. The government insists it is protecting the BBC's
:08:27. > :08:27.historic independence and we will find out tomorrow morning whether
:08:28. > :08:30.MPs agree. Joining me now are two
:08:31. > :08:32.Conservative politicians - the former Conservative Chairman
:08:33. > :08:34.Lord Fowler, and Andrew Bridgen MP, chair of the regulatory
:08:35. > :08:46.reform select committee. Good evening. The controversy, I
:08:47. > :08:50.suppose, is government directly appointing people who will be
:08:51. > :08:58.directly running the BBC. What do you feel about that? Well, what I
:08:59. > :09:01.did feel until I heard the preamble to the programme, is that there are
:09:02. > :09:08.great dangers in that. But if the story is that John Whittingdale has
:09:09. > :09:10.great dangers in that. But if the changed tack, and that we are now
:09:11. > :09:15.going to have a truly independent board, then obviously that is
:09:16. > :09:18.something to welcome. There is a real problem with the BBC right at
:09:19. > :09:25.the centre of it. This is my concern all along. We have been through this
:09:26. > :09:28.great consultation. Almost everybody has been consulted. And at the end
:09:29. > :09:33.of the day we have a white paper. has been consulted. And at the end
:09:34. > :09:37.Then we think, well, now we have the bill, but you don't. The decision
:09:38. > :09:41.rests with the government. I think this is a central issue which at
:09:42. > :09:46.some stage we need to face. That it shouldn't be left on ministers to
:09:47. > :09:51.decide. It should be parliament, and particularly
:09:52. > :09:55.decide. It should be parliament, and You don't get to vote on it but you
:09:56. > :09:56.can debate on it. Let's be clear, the government will appoint people,
:09:57. > :10:01.directly, to the government will appoint people,
:10:02. > :10:04.runs the BBC. Not a majority but it the government will appoint people,
:10:05. > :10:10.and you are the government will appoint people,
:10:11. > :10:12.that? I would prefer it if all of the board were independent members
:10:13. > :10:18.and were appointed by an independent commission. But if the compromise is
:10:19. > :10:23.the kind of compromise you set out I don't think everybody is going to
:10:24. > :10:28.die in a ditch. We shall have to see the detail and what the numbers
:10:29. > :10:33.actually are. Is it going far enough for you? You have been a critic of
:10:34. > :10:37.the corporation. I am a critic of anything that has authority and
:10:38. > :10:41.power without accountability. The government appointed all of the
:10:42. > :10:45.members of the trust previously. The new board will begin new structure.
:10:46. > :10:52.The unitary board will be responsible. I laid down an
:10:53. > :11:05.The unitary board will be the TV licence. That led to the
:11:06. > :11:12.Perry review. I have to accept that it did not go ahead. What I want to
:11:13. > :11:17.see is a structure, a structure for the BBC to go forward to thrive in a
:11:18. > :11:23.rapidly changing marketplace and respond to that. Before we leave
:11:24. > :11:30.that, it is important to say that the BBC trust, which we all... I, as
:11:31. > :11:34.chairman of select committee at the time, we all advised against that.
:11:35. > :11:45.The Labour government went ahead and put it in. It is very welcome, the
:11:46. > :11:50.BBC trust -- the fact it has gone. Government can go over the opinions
:11:51. > :11:55.of the mass of people and the mass of politicians. As I understand it,
:11:56. > :12:00.leading up to the failure of the trust, this 11 year period which
:12:01. > :12:02.will be a health check five-year stint away to make sure the
:12:03. > :12:15.government system is working, which is very sensible. -- which will be a
:12:16. > :12:21.health check five years into it. Doesn't it always feel like it is
:12:22. > :12:25.always coming up to another review? No, it will be a health check of the
:12:26. > :12:31.government's regime. The last one failed. It isn't a health check on
:12:32. > :12:36.the BBC, it is on the regime. That's right. And there have been scandals
:12:37. > :12:40.recently. You have got to be careful that you don't get into a situation
:12:41. > :12:46.where it feels like the BBC is always under investigation. No
:12:47. > :12:52.business can act like that. It should be under constant
:12:53. > :12:55.examination... It should be but from the independent board. If you are
:12:56. > :13:01.going to have examination, call it what you will, at five years, and
:13:02. > :13:05.then 11 years, the impression is going to be that government
:13:06. > :13:12.ministers are looking over the shoulder of the BBC. We don't want
:13:13. > :13:17.to go back to what I regard as the old nationalised industry where
:13:18. > :13:21.ministers got involved. When the BBC is receiving the thick end of ?4
:13:22. > :13:26.billion of taxpayers money every year I think there needs to be a
:13:27. > :13:32.level of accountability. With the new charter, that will be increasing
:13:33. > :13:37.by inflation. But you have to decide who actually does the process of
:13:38. > :13:40.accounting. That is the crucial question. Do you think it is
:13:41. > :13:46.appropriate for the governing party to play a big part in holding the
:13:47. > :13:51.state broadcaster, let's call it that, to account? The government is
:13:52. > :14:00.elected, after all, does that give us mandate to regulate? Because the
:14:01. > :14:05.BBC is receiving such amounts of taxpayers money, which is 2.5 times
:14:06. > :14:08.the amount of Commonwealth office Budget, the government has a
:14:09. > :14:13.responsibility to the taxpayer to ensure that is delivering value and
:14:14. > :14:17.acting within its charter specifications. In Poland at the
:14:18. > :14:20.moment there is a big controversy, it's been criticised by everybody
:14:21. > :14:21.because it is changing its media government arrangements by putting
:14:22. > :14:36.government appointees on the board. I think one of the crucial things
:14:37. > :14:39.about this review, this charter, is going to be to see how much
:14:40. > :14:44.micromanagement the Government is going to do, and as far as I'm
:14:45. > :14:47.concerned, Iran's number of nationalised industries when I was
:14:48. > :14:55.doing transport, but if you took reduce rail for example, civil
:14:56. > :14:58.servants and Ministers had a look at the organisation, then the Prime
:14:59. > :15:01.Minister had a look at the organisation. It is a bad way of
:15:02. > :15:05.running a big organisation in this country. We have to look at the
:15:06. > :15:11.whole white paper as a whole, we need to have an open mind. It does
:15:12. > :15:15.feel as though it has been watered down, I wonder if that is a pattern,
:15:16. > :15:20.that there is a lot of tough talk and a bit of BBC bashing, the Tory
:15:21. > :15:23.party and the BBC not always the best of friends, but at the end of
:15:24. > :15:28.day, it perhaps does get watered down, is that the perception? The
:15:29. > :15:31.perception is everyone wants to reform the BBC and various things in
:15:32. > :15:37.it, and events happen that supersede those. There are certainly events
:15:38. > :15:40.going on at the moment which are important to the future of our
:15:41. > :15:45.country, perhaps even more important than the future of the BBC. It
:15:46. > :15:49.should be said just before we end that the BBC is one of the most
:15:50. > :15:56.important institutions in this country, and a world leader, and if
:15:57. > :15:58.we have got any sense, we don't take out of it. Thank you both very much
:15:59. > :16:01.indeed. The Queen's inadvertent reveal
:16:02. > :16:03.yesterday, of some of the behind the scenes tensions during the state
:16:04. > :16:08.visit of China's President Li Xiaoping last year,
:16:09. > :16:10.perhaps inadvertently also showed just how well the trip went -
:16:11. > :16:13.that on stage, so little Those smiles all round,
:16:14. > :16:18.were a display of true But tensions there were -
:16:19. > :16:22.and about more than simply a bit Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban has
:16:23. > :16:26.been combing through the footage and has discovered some fresh clues
:16:27. > :16:32.as to the arguments going on. The Queen's ride with President Xi
:16:33. > :16:35.in his state carriage was intended to personify
:16:36. > :16:45.a golden era in relations. But reports that British police had
:16:46. > :16:48.stopped a Chinese intelligence officer being inserted into that
:16:49. > :16:51.carriage as an interpreter are apparently confirmed
:16:52. > :16:53.by a conversation at that The Met police tonight declined
:16:54. > :17:04.to comment on that and an earlier part in the same conversation
:17:05. > :17:07.when the Queen revealed her views It was during that visit that
:17:08. > :17:34.Chinese student demonstrators tried to drown out and screen off Tibetan
:17:35. > :17:38.and other protesters. They complained at the time
:17:39. > :17:41.that they had been given too little space by the police so as not
:17:42. > :17:46.to upset the Chinese. Many in the Foreign Office felt
:17:47. > :17:50.the visit marked their final defeat in China policy by George
:17:51. > :17:54.Osborne and the Treasury. China policy was taken over
:17:55. > :17:58.by George Osborne and a number of people in the Treasury
:17:59. > :18:02.obviously as his advisers, That battle between those who wanted
:18:03. > :18:12.to put trade first and those who had favoured a more assertive policy
:18:13. > :18:14.has ebbed and flowed His decision to meet the Dalai Lama
:18:15. > :18:22.in 2012 caused a deep freeze in relations with Beijing
:18:23. > :18:24.that the Chancellor It certainly is the kind of thing
:18:25. > :18:33.that the Chinese government complains about very publicly,
:18:34. > :18:38.but actually, if you look at what the Cameron government seems
:18:39. > :18:41.to care a great deal about, which is trade and investment,
:18:42. > :18:46.it had almost no impact at all. So the Prime Minister
:18:47. > :18:49.was not welcome in China, but actually, business went
:18:50. > :18:53.on pretty much as usual, and you will find that the Chinese
:18:54. > :18:55.are pretty pragmatic In his fight to push past
:18:56. > :19:02.the Dalai Lama meeting, the Chancellor travelled to the east
:19:03. > :19:05.of China and embraced Chinese bond As the prospect of a Chinese
:19:06. > :19:11.presidential visit grew, the Queen was pressed
:19:12. > :19:13.into the effort, meeting When arrangements were being made
:19:14. > :19:22.for the Chinese premier to visit, there were some quite robust remarks
:19:23. > :19:27.about the visit being cancelled if he was not granted an audience
:19:28. > :19:34.with the Queen, for example. And we seem to be
:19:35. > :19:53.seeing similar stuff. It all has to do, I believe,
:19:54. > :19:56.with the culture of a communist bureaucracy, where officials
:19:57. > :19:59.are desperately keen to earn brownie So determined whether Chancellor
:20:00. > :20:03.and Prime Minister that President Xi Jinping's visit
:20:04. > :20:04.here last year should go without a hitch,
:20:05. > :20:07.they tried to ban various senior public figures
:20:08. > :20:09.from seeing the Dalai Lama. They asked Prince Charles,
:20:10. > :20:11.for example, not to do so, and for a written guarantee
:20:12. > :20:13.from Nick Clegg that In the past seven months,
:20:14. > :20:27.some of the sparkle has already Joining me now is the Hong Kong-born
:20:28. > :20:39.entrepreneur Sir David Tang, who attended the state banquet
:20:40. > :20:46.for the Chinese President during his So when you are at that banquet, was
:20:47. > :20:51.their talk and gossip about tensions and things going on behind the
:20:52. > :20:56.scenes? Know, everything was very friendly, and it was a very fine
:20:57. > :21:01.banquet, no hitches at all. One of the charges is that the Queen feels
:21:02. > :21:05.that the amp bustard, that the Chinese team were rude to the
:21:06. > :21:14.ambassador. It could be that they were rude, it could be a
:21:15. > :21:18.ambassador. It could be that they clash. Nobody will know because we
:21:19. > :21:22.weren't there. There are two different cultures and two different
:21:23. > :21:28.languages. I speak both English and Chinese, and for us Chinese even, we
:21:29. > :21:35.are very monosyllabic and very loud and very blunt, because it is
:21:36. > :21:39.staccato, every word is a singular sound, so even to ourselves we sound
:21:40. > :21:44.a bit rude, so to the west and we might sound very rude. And when that
:21:45. > :21:50.is translated into English, that is even possibly more rude. When I went
:21:51. > :21:55.to Beijing and I wanted an alarm call, when the phone came at seven
:21:56. > :22:02.o'clock, I picked up the phone, and at the other end, the concierge
:22:03. > :22:07.says, get out! For the Chinese, that is not rude. So there could be a
:22:08. > :22:14.cultural misunderstanding, one would hope that the ambassador at least
:22:15. > :22:18.would understand. British diplomats are very soft-spoken. Did you know
:22:19. > :22:25.anything about the row over who got into the carriage to ride with the
:22:26. > :22:30.Queen? I think only the interpreter, who was probably the security guard
:22:31. > :22:38.as well. He obviously spoke Chinese and English, but this whole incident
:22:39. > :22:42.is really a storm in a teacup. If the gold commander, as she was
:22:43. > :22:46.called, should complain about the Chinese, I can't imagine what she
:22:47. > :22:53.would be like dealing with the Americans. All these people in dark
:22:54. > :22:59.glasses with Ian things coming out looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger.
:23:00. > :23:04.They must have been incredibly... Do you think the Chinese care about
:23:05. > :23:12.this kerfuffle? They appeared to care enough that they censored it
:23:13. > :23:20.from the BBC One broadcast -- BBC World broadcast. This incident is
:23:21. > :23:25.completely a storm in a teacup. I actually thought that it was rather
:23:26. > :23:35.odd for the Lord Chamberlain to bring this subject up at a garden
:23:36. > :23:38.party. They were enjoying, albeit raining rather heavily, but why do
:23:39. > :23:44.you want to talk about somebody being rude ten months ago when you
:23:45. > :23:47.could be talking about so many things? They could be making small
:23:48. > :23:52.talk about the rain and the weather! Do you think the Chinese would be
:23:53. > :24:00.surprised that it has been broadcast and publicised everywhere? I don't
:24:01. > :24:03.think so. Not even the Chinese, but I shouldn't imagine the British
:24:04. > :24:09.Government couldn't care less about how this was interpreted. It is
:24:10. > :24:14.really a non-incident. The fact that they heard what the Queen said, the
:24:15. > :24:19.Queen is perfectly entitled to her own private conversation. I blame,
:24:20. > :24:23.I'm afraid, again the Lord Chamberlain for putting a microphone
:24:24. > :24:29.near her and not heeding that whatever she said could have been
:24:30. > :24:35.heard. What is the general state of Anglo-Chinese relations at the
:24:36. > :24:43.moment? You have Chancellor George Osborne, you can't get more slick
:24:44. > :24:48.than him, he is like an Exxon Valdez oil slick as far as the Chinese are
:24:49. > :24:52.concerned, and they love it! Thank you very much.
:24:53. > :24:54.The American attorney general Loretta Lynch ignited a huge buzz
:24:55. > :24:56.of excitement this week, with some words on the rights
:24:57. > :25:00.It wasn't even a speech as such, but merely a statement
:25:01. > :25:03.She was announcing that the US government is taking action
:25:04. > :25:08.against the state of North Carolina, which has courted controversy
:25:09. > :25:11.by passing legislation that demands everybody uses the bathroom that
:25:12. > :25:13.accords to their gender at birth, rather than the gender
:25:14. > :25:18.The arguments have been raging on that, but the intervention
:25:19. > :25:21.of the attorney general has been called the "I have a dream moment"
:25:22. > :25:32.This law provides no benefit to society, and all it does is harm
:25:33. > :25:36.innocent Americans. And instead of turning away from our neighbours,
:25:37. > :25:40.friends and colleagues, let us instead learn from our history and
:25:41. > :25:46.avoid repeating the mistakes of our past. Some of you have lived freely
:25:47. > :25:48.for decades, and others of you are still wondering how you could
:25:49. > :25:55.possibly live the lives that you were born to lead. But no matter how
:25:56. > :25:59.isolated, no matter how afraid and no matter how alone you may feel
:26:00. > :26:02.today, know this. That the Department of Justice and indeed the
:26:03. > :26:06.in tire Obama administration want you to know that we see you.
:26:07. > :26:11.Interesting to hear a comparison made to the civil rights
:26:12. > :26:14.From bathroom rights to bigger things.
:26:15. > :26:16.Over a few years we've seen dramatic changes in attitudes
:26:17. > :26:18.towards trans issues, but does the comparison
:26:19. > :26:22.to the advance in black civil rights stand?
:26:23. > :26:25.Joining me now is Kerri Kupec, who works for the Alliance Defending
:26:26. > :26:28.And from San Francisco, the executive director
:26:29. > :26:34.of the Transgender Law Center, Kris Hayashi.
:26:35. > :26:43.Thank you both for joining us. Kris, if I could start with you, how
:26:44. > :26:49.excited are you buy that Loretta Lynch statement? The federal
:26:50. > :26:53.government made it clear that discrimination against transgender
:26:54. > :26:56.people will not stand, and as I watched the Attorney General speak
:26:57. > :27:01.on Monday, I thought about all of the transgender leaders,
:27:02. > :27:05.particularly transgender women of colour who have fought for rights,
:27:06. > :27:10.whose work bought us to this moment, and who I no longer with us because
:27:11. > :27:14.of hatred and violence. As a transgender man myself, someone who,
:27:15. > :27:19.when I was born, the doctor said I was a girl, but I have always known
:27:20. > :27:23.myself to be a man and I have lived most of my life as a man, is a
:27:24. > :27:29.transgender person of colour, I have rarely felt truly seen by the people
:27:30. > :27:33.and systems that make up our government, and Monday was a rare
:27:34. > :27:37.moment where I not only felt seen, but I felt that the federal
:27:38. > :27:43.government would join with us in this battle against discrimination.
:27:44. > :27:48.Kerri, where you moved at all by the Attorney General's statement on
:27:49. > :27:53.Monday? I was moved, but I was not moved in a positive way, as both an
:27:54. > :27:56.attorney and a woman, I was very concerned about the words coming
:27:57. > :28:02.from our nation's chief attorney. Yes it is important to see everyone,
:28:03. > :28:07.as she said, absolutely, but the problem with her words is she was
:28:08. > :28:09.ignoring and quite rightly marginalising millions of women
:28:10. > :28:15.across this country who understandably and justifiably feel
:28:16. > :28:17.very concerned about the idea of allowing men into intimate settings
:28:18. > :28:24.like a women's allowing men into intimate settings
:28:25. > :28:29.Attorney General is taking, using the Civil Rights act to take action
:28:30. > :28:32.against the Civil Rights act to take action
:28:33. > :28:33.that point, and you think that is an abuse of the Civil Rights act to do
:28:34. > :28:42.that Chris? abuse of the Civil Rights act to do
:28:43. > :28:49.privacy law is fully compliant abuse of the Civil Rights act to do
:28:50. > :28:55.federal law. It forbids discrimination on the basis of sex,
:28:56. > :28:57.and sex. That does not include gender identity or how one perceives
:28:58. > :29:05.their gender and sex. The plain meaning of the text says biological
:29:06. > :29:08.sex. The legislative history, the sponsors of the bills at the same,
:29:09. > :29:09.in fact of the sponsors of one of the act of the Department of Justice
:29:10. > :29:14.specifically says that the act of the Department of Justice
:29:15. > :29:23.that facilities can still maintain sex-specific facilities. And there
:29:24. > :29:26.is a real irony here. Protecting against sex discrimination in the
:29:27. > :29:29.60s and 70s came as a result of combating Sextus ruination against
:29:30. > :29:31.60s and 70s came as a result of women. Women
:29:32. > :29:33.60s and 70s came as a result of shake in employment and
:29:34. > :29:36.60s and 70s came as a result of these same laws that were designed
:29:37. > :29:40.60s and 70s came as a result of to protect women are now being used
:29:41. > :29:43.against women, and telling women that regardless of how they feel,
:29:44. > :29:46.regardless of what their feelings and concerns are,
:29:47. > :29:51.regardless of what their feelings into their locker rooms, and
:29:52. > :29:56.regardless of what their feelings trump women's. Kris, hold your
:29:57. > :29:59.discussion on the bathroom policy, I just want to know
:30:00. > :30:01.discussion on the bathroom policy, I about using the Civil Rights act for
:30:02. > :30:05.the transgender movement, because clearly that wasn't what was in the
:30:06. > :30:10.mind of those who drafted that back in the 1960s. It is very
:30:11. > :30:16.straightforward. Transgender people are protected from discrimination
:30:17. > :30:20.under Sextus rumination law. We are protected from discrimination in
:30:21. > :30:27.employment under title seven, transgender students are protected
:30:28. > :30:32.from discrimination, and in the transgender Law Centre in 2012 won
:30:33. > :30:39.the case and made very clear that transgender people are protected
:30:40. > :30:48.from discrimination. What the eternal General did was simply
:30:49. > :30:51.reaffirm the law. Kerri, you can't see that Mac one, he is in the other
:30:52. > :30:57.studio. What is your problem with him going into amen's bathroom. It
:30:58. > :31:02.wouldn't be common sense for him to go into a women's bathroom, which is
:31:03. > :31:08.what North Carolina forces him to do.
:31:09. > :31:20.They force those to undress. It is a fundamental right to privacy.
:31:21. > :31:24.Everybody deserves that. This law strips the right of privacy from
:31:25. > :31:29.everybody who understandably, and justifiably, feel concerned about
:31:30. > :31:34.the idea of undressing in front of a biological man. I think it is not
:31:35. > :31:38.what about the ones or what I want, but what is best for the millions of
:31:39. > :31:42.people across this country who have concerns. Those concerns should be
:31:43. > :31:49.recognised. These people shouldn't be slandered or attacked but should
:31:50. > :31:56.be recognised. Do you understand that? As a transgender person safety
:31:57. > :32:02.is important. But transgender people face disproportionate rates of
:32:03. > :32:06.violence and harassment. There are already laws in place in North
:32:07. > :32:12.Carolina. It is true across the country to protect women, children,
:32:13. > :32:18.anyone from facing this. The reality of the law is that it opens the door
:32:19. > :32:20.for harassment. Not just against transgender people but against
:32:21. > :32:26.anybody who looks a bit different. Against anyone who doesn't fit in
:32:27. > :32:33.the stereotypes of what a man or a woman should look like. Do you
:32:34. > :32:36.accept transgender people as equal, do they deserve full protection
:32:37. > :32:41.against discrimination at work in college, in housing, all of these
:32:42. > :32:45.different areas? Discrimination and bullying should never be tolerated.
:32:46. > :32:50.But we're not talking about that. We are talking about a fundamental,
:32:51. > :32:56.since right to bodily privacy. We are talking about millions of people
:32:57. > :33:03.who understandably don't feel comfortable... Really, really, was
:33:04. > :33:06.it really a problem in North Carolina before they pass the bill,
:33:07. > :33:11.where millions of men and women around America thinking, my
:33:12. > :33:14.goodness, my life is ruined because my right to bodily privacy is being
:33:15. > :33:21.undermined by transgender people using my bathroom? I'm not saying
:33:22. > :33:25.that. I'm saying that opening bathrooms and locker rooms to
:33:26. > :33:29.whoever wants to come in. Somebody can come in and say I identify as
:33:30. > :33:32.such therefore I can go in. That opens the door to those who would
:33:33. > :33:37.abuse those laws to gain access to the people inside for bad reasons.
:33:38. > :33:43.As a woman, if a man enters the locker room I can get the manager, I
:33:44. > :33:47.can say, you don't belong here. Now, if we open our locker room and rest
:33:48. > :33:54.rooms I cannot say anything until something actually happens to me. We
:33:55. > :33:56.need to leave it. This is not about transgender people, this is about
:33:57. > :34:00.the rights of everybody. Thank you. Well, if you are someone
:34:01. > :34:02.who likes trans rights, you may also like the art and music
:34:03. > :34:05.of the late David Bowie. Which brings us to a rare chance
:34:06. > :34:09.to hear from someone who was a muse Lindsay Kemp is actually one
:34:10. > :34:14.of the most extraordinary performers It wasn't just Bowie
:34:15. > :34:18.he was close to, he also taught Now 78, he's the last
:34:19. > :34:22.of the bohemians, equally at home performing mime in a striptease club
:34:23. > :34:24.or dancing for his many Kemp lives in Italy and he hasn't
:34:25. > :34:36.returned to the UK for 15 years. But he's back, to teach
:34:37. > :34:38.a class at Rada in London. And to talk sex, 'Strictly' -
:34:39. > :34:41.and Morris dancing - You see, I never walked
:34:42. > :34:46.in the streets, I always danced. I found dancing much more
:34:47. > :34:53.pleasurable than walking. because I didn't march,
:34:54. > :34:56.I danced. I was doing a little
:34:57. > :35:14.show of the tiny theatre -- I was doing a little
:35:15. > :35:17.show at a tiny theatre David Bowie was in the audience one
:35:18. > :35:22.night as a 19-year-old boy. He came to my dressing room
:35:23. > :35:30.and he was like the Archangel the Archangel Gabriel standing
:35:31. > :35:34.there, I was, like, you know, Mary, He expressed the desire to work
:35:35. > :35:41.with me, to learn from me, and at the time I was teaching dance
:35:42. > :35:44.classes at the Dance Centre in Covent Garden, so he enrolled
:35:45. > :35:48.the following day. # Poor Harlequin you're quite
:35:49. > :35:53.an exception # A troubadour
:35:54. > :35:57.on a downer #. Kemp and Bowie became lovers
:35:58. > :36:04.and toured Kemp's production of The Pierot In Turquoise,
:36:05. > :36:10.which was later adapted for TV. He told me he met me just in time,
:36:11. > :36:13.because he was on his He had been studying Buddhism quite
:36:14. > :36:21.seriously and was considering taking He did declare later on,
:36:22. > :36:25.Lindsay, save me from And quitting the business,
:36:26. > :36:28.was that... And quitting the business, yeah,
:36:29. > :36:33.he wasn't getting anywhere, he was certainly multifaceted,
:36:34. > :36:36.a chameleon, a splendid, shining, always inspired creature,
:36:37. > :36:38.a genius of a creature. # There's a star man
:36:39. > :36:52.waiting in the sky # He'd like to come
:36:53. > :36:59.and meet us # But he thinks he'd
:37:00. > :37:02.blow our minds #. Kemp collaborated with Bowie
:37:03. > :37:07.on the stage show of Ziggy Stardust, which was the making
:37:08. > :37:09.of the singer, though by then their
:37:10. > :37:11.relationship had ended. My best friend, needless to say,
:37:12. > :37:32.you know, just like in the mags. I foolishly, and rather
:37:33. > :37:37.theatrically, and not too seriously, attempted to cut my
:37:38. > :37:38.wrists, you know. I was taken to the hospital,
:37:39. > :37:42.the doctor looked at them, Oops.
:37:43. > :37:58.and sent me back and said, Bad luck.
:37:59. > :38:13.than me, she was revived # And she can't stop
:38:14. > :38:15.till them shoes fall off # These shoes do,
:38:16. > :38:17.a kind of voodoo #. Another willing pupil of Kemp's
:38:18. > :38:20.was Kate Bush, though at first Modest, she was, she was always
:38:21. > :38:27.at the back and I was forever having But once she started moving,
:38:28. > :38:36.and improvising, she was dynamic. One evening, returning to my house
:38:37. > :38:42.in Battersea, there was a record shoved under
:38:43. > :38:45.the door, The Kick Inside, and on the record there was the song
:38:46. > :38:48.Moving, which she wrote, His proteges have gone on to great
:38:49. > :39:11.things, but Kemp is happy just to be on stage performing mime or dance,
:39:12. > :39:21.whether it is at Rada this week, the billing "Lindsay Kemp
:39:22. > :39:25.Mimes His Own Business". I worked in some of those striptease
:39:26. > :39:27.clubs. Oh, well, it was a joy,
:39:28. > :39:35.I liked it. For me it is all part
:39:36. > :39:39.of my world of entertainment, It looked good, it smelt good,
:39:40. > :39:46.and it was just full The tea rooms, I believe,
:39:47. > :39:58.are still there. the money to enjoy, eclairs,
:39:59. > :40:00.their delicious eclairs, I would treat myself to them
:40:01. > :40:03.from time to time. Are you aware of the phenomena
:40:04. > :40:08.of Strictly, over in Italy? because there was a lull
:40:09. > :40:10.after the demise of Morris Where do you stand on Morris
:40:11. > :40:16.dancing? That famous phrase, I'll try
:40:17. > :40:22.anything except Morris Well, I don't think
:40:23. > :40:53.I've tried incest yet, Nick Watt on. -- Nick Watt is here.
:40:54. > :40:56.Cameron rejects TV debate on Europe is the Daily Telegraph headline,
:40:57. > :41:01.what do we know about this? The government wants to avoid a row with
:41:02. > :41:05.the BBC but there are still some ups and downs. We've heard Downing
:41:06. > :41:13.Street has agreed the first series of elections the referendum debate.
:41:14. > :41:24.With the BBC discussions are ongoing. That is because Downing
:41:25. > :41:30.Street are worried about the mention of Wembley Arena. They think it
:41:31. > :41:35.might be like what happened in Glasgow, where it was a bit hostile
:41:36. > :41:43.in the Better Together Campaign. But a major row has broken out on the
:41:44. > :41:46.ITV debates. They are saying that Nigel Farage is not part of the
:41:47. > :41:51.official campaign, why you not inviting us. It looks like the
:41:52. > :41:52.government is trying to choose its own opposition and we will sue ITV,
:41:53. > :41:57.they are saying. Thanks very much. That's all we have time
:41:58. > :42:00.for tonight; it's James O'Brien Probably with more on the BBC White
:42:01. > :42:16.Paper. A largely dry and cool weekend to
:42:17. > :42:17.come. A few showers