:00:09. > :00:11.Tonight will the government give in to mounting pressure to hold
:00:12. > :00:13.a public inquiry into Orgreave, after the damning verdict
:00:14. > :00:21.on South Yorkshire police in the Hillsborough Inquiry?
:00:22. > :00:27.I don't know if I had out what but when the wagons came
:00:28. > :00:33.and I went to the front to shout I got a push in the and arrested. Put
:00:34. > :00:37.on a bus, smacked about a bit but not as bad as some people.
:00:38. > :00:50.I think the strain of the campaign is telling on him, his judgment is
:00:51. > :00:54.going! The shadow chancellor
:00:55. > :00:56.is here to share his great sadness Fifty years on from the Cultural
:00:57. > :01:01.revolution - is China horrified I'll be
:01:02. > :01:07.speaking to the author of Wild Swans, Jung Chang who lived
:01:08. > :01:10.through it AND also wrote And the BBC announced that recipes
:01:11. > :01:14.online were not for ever, then there was a bit of a flambe and now
:01:15. > :01:21.the recipes will be on the BBC's commercial food website,
:01:22. > :01:23.so to celebrate, welcome Tonight, linguini and mussels
:01:24. > :01:26.with slow cooked tomato Today the Home Secretary Theresa May
:01:27. > :01:37.told the Police Federation conference that the 1989
:01:38. > :01:39.Hillsborough disaster must be the "touchstone" for everything
:01:40. > :01:46.the police does. The Hillsborough report,
:01:47. > :01:48.which found that 96 fans who died had been "unlawfully
:01:49. > :01:51.killed", has given succour to the families of miners involved
:01:52. > :01:53.in the so called Battle of Orgreave with the same
:01:54. > :01:55.South Yorkshire police force They are demanding a public
:01:56. > :02:01.inquiry into those events, which led to 120 police and pickets
:02:02. > :02:04.injured and 93 arrests - calls that are being taken
:02:05. > :02:07.increasingly seriously John Sweeney spent the day
:02:08. > :02:24.at Rotherham in the shadow One police force, twice under
:02:25. > :02:27.suspicion. After the shame of Hillsborough, now South Yorkshire
:02:28. > :02:32.Police faces calls for an inquiry into what became known as the Battle
:02:33. > :02:38.of Orgreave. Fort here, 32 years ago. The narrative, as told by the
:02:39. > :02:41.South Yorkshire Police investigation, was the striking
:02:42. > :02:46.miners were pretty much on that bridge where those fancy new homes
:02:47. > :02:51.are being built. The police were down here and the miners were
:02:52. > :02:57.throwing rocks at the police lines. The police had no choice but to
:02:58. > :03:02.react. The police charged and so began the battle of Orgreave. Now
:03:03. > :03:12.there is a stack of evidence that that narrative simply is not true.
:03:13. > :03:25.June 18, 1984. Roughly 5000 striking miners tried to stop lorries
:03:26. > :03:30.carrying Koke going to steel mills. But they were outnumbered by 6000
:03:31. > :03:36.police officers. That day was about the most frightening day of my life
:03:37. > :03:41.because of the atmosphere. How would you describe the atmosphere that
:03:42. > :03:47.day? It was a different atmosphere on that day than any other picketing
:03:48. > :03:53.day. This was the biggest clash of the most political strike in modern
:03:54. > :03:57.times. The miners, led by their union president, Arthur Scargill,
:03:58. > :04:01.confronted the forces of the state, in ultimate command, Margaret
:04:02. > :04:08.Thatcher. She described the miners as the enemy within. One of those
:04:09. > :04:14.arrested, Kevin Horne, a miner from Mexborough, South Yorkshire. There
:04:15. > :04:17.was like a simple line of police, maybe a double line, along this
:04:18. > :04:21.playing field. I don't know if I had been picked out or what but when the
:04:22. > :04:30.wagons came and I went to the front to shout, I got a push in the back
:04:31. > :04:35.and arrested. Put on a bus, slapped about a little bit, like, but not as
:04:36. > :04:42.bad as some people, obviously. What we you accused of? I was accused of
:04:43. > :04:44.obstruction. And as the day went on, by the time we got to the
:04:45. > :04:46.Magistrates' by the time we got to the
:04:47. > :04:52.assembly. Landmark when by the time we got to the
:04:53. > :04:55.Orgreave pickets went to trial for riot the cases against
:04:56. > :04:58.Orgreave pickets went to trial for collapsed. And why was that?
:04:59. > :05:04.Collusion and fabrication of the words that come to mind. Colluding
:05:05. > :05:07.in a sense that officers got together, a group of officers
:05:08. > :05:11.decided that this was how the evidence would be drawn up. What
:05:12. > :05:16.they did when they drew this evidence Abbas to pre-face it,
:05:17. > :05:23.saying, we are out to win this. -- was to pre-face it. What were some
:05:24. > :05:28.of the phrases? I was part of a police support unit which was at
:05:29. > :05:36.Orgreave. We were told to report for duty. It was a bright summer's day
:05:37. > :05:40.and the scene was set with lines of police and lines of pickets,
:05:41. > :05:43.initially the mood was good but then it turned nasty and we were
:05:44. > :05:52.subjected to a hail of missiles and so forth and so on. It was identical
:05:53. > :05:56.for about 150 leads officers. -- police officers. There's a pattern
:05:57. > :06:02.here. Collusion and by South Yorkshire Police happened in the
:06:03. > :06:07.Hillsborough inquest. Some of the same officers involved in that
:06:08. > :06:10.disgrace were also involved in the failed Orgreave prosecutions. We've
:06:11. > :06:16.had a number of big issues in South Yorkshire. Child sexual
:06:17. > :06:21.exploitation, scandals in Rotherham, the Hillsborough inquest is now, and
:06:22. > :06:26.the verdicts have come in. The last of these three big issues is
:06:27. > :06:30.Orgreave. And in each case, it is essential, if we are going to
:06:31. > :06:33.rebuild trust and confidence in South Yorkshire Police, we need to
:06:34. > :06:38.know the truth about each of those. And that I think, is why we need to
:06:39. > :06:45.be Orgreave inquiry to happen quickly. What should happen is get
:06:46. > :06:49.to the bottom of Orgreave and draw a line and it and let the police start
:06:50. > :06:57.afresh. Because it is not fair for the bobby on the beat to be taking
:06:58. > :07:02.all this flak from 30 years ago. 30 years ago, the people arrested here
:07:03. > :07:10.ended up in the dock. Today, it is not the accused but their accusers
:07:11. > :07:13.who are facing the questions. Ayr John Sweeney.
:07:14. > :07:16.Joining me now is Vera Baird QC, who defended three of the accused
:07:17. > :07:18.Orgreave miners and is now Police and Crime Commissioner
:07:19. > :07:21.And Alex Marshall, former Chief Constable of Hampshire
:07:22. > :07:23.and now Chief Executive of the College of Policing.
:07:24. > :07:31.Good evening to you both. First of all, Vera Baird, why should there be
:07:32. > :07:36.a public inquiry, it is very different from Hillsborough in the
:07:37. > :07:42.sense that there were no deaths at Orgreave, there were deaths at
:07:43. > :07:47.Hillsborough. Obviously there is no comparison in that sense but in fact
:07:48. > :07:51.the Hillsborough deceptions, the changing of the 160 statements that
:07:52. > :07:56.the panel found a pair, were defending the police to try to cover
:07:57. > :08:00.their mistake. At Orgreave of course they were proactive, to discredit
:08:01. > :08:06.the miners. That is the only possible conclusion. The officers
:08:07. > :08:10.who were drilled by South Yorkshire Police to dictate the scene of riot
:08:11. > :08:15.or altering what one individual might have done, throw a stone, a
:08:16. > :08:19.petty offence, and turn it into the scene within which he was a
:08:20. > :08:24.participant in a riot because others were behaving in a disorderly way.
:08:25. > :08:28.That was dictated by a unit set up by the Chief Constable according to
:08:29. > :08:33.South Yorkshire Police's own reference to the IPC C. So it was a
:08:34. > :08:38.deliberate positive move whereas Hillsborough was merely defensive.
:08:39. > :08:44.There was much less violence at Orgreave van has been pretended,
:08:45. > :08:47.until, by pre-arrangement, the line split, the cavalry went out, the
:08:48. > :08:52.short shield squad followed behind and then there was a good deal of
:08:53. > :08:57.violence from the police and some reality show, there is no doubt of
:08:58. > :09:03.it. Wax to Mac the collaboration about dictating scene of riot that
:09:04. > :09:09.simply was not present at the time is where the resemblance is to
:09:10. > :09:12.Hillsborough. Alex Marshall, on that question of pre-arrangement,
:09:13. > :09:16.decisions made before the operation, you can look at that, whether it is
:09:17. > :09:23.Orgreave or anywhere else and see that is not good policing. It is not
:09:24. > :09:28.good policing if it has the outcome that plays out as you saw. And
:09:29. > :09:32.alongside the miners and the people supporting them whose injuries are
:09:33. > :09:35.clear on the footage there are also front-line police officers getting
:09:36. > :09:40.injured in the same scenario. I am very pleased that the way events of
:09:41. > :09:45.this type are planned by police now are substantially different, and
:09:46. > :09:51.quite rightly they are about public safety and planning carefully in
:09:52. > :09:55.advance, their contingency is not, as often characterised in Orgreave,
:09:56. > :10:00.being on one side and not another, that is not the role of the blaze,
:10:01. > :10:08.our role is to uphold the law. Yet that as we heard from former miners
:10:09. > :10:13.at Orgreave, is how it is seen, that minor in the report said that they
:10:14. > :10:17.needed to draw a line under it because it affects the bobby on the
:10:18. > :10:22.beat, this sense is so destructive that until you have a public
:10:23. > :10:26.inquiry, this will never end. I understand that, and the officers
:10:27. > :10:30.working on the front line in South Yorkshire, as we speak officers will
:10:31. > :10:33.be going out on night shift to protect their local communities,
:10:34. > :10:38.those officers work with the support of the people they protect. And this
:10:39. > :10:44.question of trust and confidence that still hangs around can of
:10:45. > :10:48.course be very damaging. If the Home Secretary decides to hold such an
:10:49. > :10:52.inquiry we would be very interested in the outcome of that inquiry in
:10:53. > :10:58.terms of the education we provide in policing and the standards that we
:10:59. > :11:02.set. The thing is, Vera Baird, do you see now that there is a new
:11:03. > :11:08.climate among policing, a new openness? Things have changed very
:11:09. > :11:14.much the South Yorkshire, Orgreave, or don't people see it like that? I
:11:15. > :11:18.think Alex is right. There is a great change. Three things have
:11:19. > :11:22.helped, the advent of police and crime commissioners not police, they
:11:23. > :11:24.are in the middle of what the police do and they can scrutinise it
:11:25. > :11:29.scrutinise it and it would be difficult for a conspiracy to arise.
:11:30. > :11:34.Also the officers are different, I think. Most now have experience as
:11:35. > :11:38.neighbourhood bullies. A Labour Party invention, terribly popular,
:11:39. > :11:41.people work with local communities as officers, are based there and
:11:42. > :11:45.become as loyal to the public in their community as they are to the
:11:46. > :11:50.police. There is no longer that ethic of police self interest that
:11:51. > :11:54.governs them and things are not of hierarchical and quasi military as
:11:55. > :11:59.in the days of Orgreave. I agree with that, yet remember as Alex
:12:00. > :12:04.said, policing depends on public consent and confidence. For many
:12:05. > :12:09.years after Orgreave had occurred, when their word jury trials in
:12:10. > :12:14.County Durham, where my clients came from, but when there were trials,
:12:15. > :12:17.the jury would do its duty yet when ever there was the word of one
:12:18. > :12:21.officer against one defendant they would never conflict. They lost
:12:22. > :12:24.faith in the police because they either had in their family, or they
:12:25. > :12:30.knew someone who had been at Orgreave or been treated similarly
:12:31. > :12:35.somewhere else. Let me put that question of trust to Alex Marshall.
:12:36. > :12:37.The figures are not great. In 2014, when more than 3000 allegations of
:12:38. > :12:41.police corruption were when more than 3000 allegations of
:12:42. > :12:45.action was taken in more than half the cases, indeed there is also
:12:46. > :12:48.evidence to show that officers believe that if they talk about
:12:49. > :12:49.corruption believe that if they talk about
:12:50. > :12:53.identities will not be protected. So believe that if they talk about
:12:54. > :12:57.there's a long way to go still on trust, is there not? There is but I
:12:58. > :12:58.would say three things help trust, is there not? There is but I
:12:59. > :13:01.in that sphere, we have a trust, is there not? There is but I
:13:02. > :13:03.ethics and policing to support those trust, is there not? There is but I
:13:04. > :13:07.professionals to make trust, is there not? There is but I
:13:08. > :13:12.and busy wrongdoing. Most of the role of the professional
:13:13. > :13:16.placing is to support the good hard working people in policing. We also
:13:17. > :13:22.keep a register of those dismissed from policing. The vast majority of
:13:23. > :13:27.keep a register of those dismissed that is what the code of
:13:28. > :13:32.keep a register of those dismissed officers don't
:13:33. > :13:34.keep a register of those dismissed whistle-blowing guidelines to allow
:13:35. > :13:41.people that production, should they report wrongdoing within policing.
:13:42. > :13:45.The EU referendum campaign has been tetchy from the start,
:13:46. > :13:48.increasingly bad tempered and now the in-fighting - at least
:13:49. > :13:53.in the Tory party - seems to be reaching a crescendo.
:13:54. > :13:58.Shadow Chancellor John McDonald got into the debate today, arguing that
:13:59. > :14:00.the campaign has been negative and accusing the Tories of peddling the
:14:01. > :14:01.politics of despair. Today Lord Heseltine
:14:02. > :14:03.weighed into Boris Johnson, describing his comparison
:14:04. > :14:05.of the ideals of the EU, to Hitler's plan for a European
:14:06. > :14:07.superstate as "preposterous I think the strain of the campaign
:14:08. > :14:12.is beginning to tell on him. And before that, we had the
:14:13. > :14:23.near-racist allegations This is the most serious
:14:24. > :14:27.decision Britain has faced in a generation
:14:28. > :14:29.and it is descending into Our political editor
:14:30. > :14:38.Nick Watt is with me. What do you make of the Heseltine
:14:39. > :14:41.intervention? The Tory infighting has really reached a new low with
:14:42. > :14:45.that personal attack on Boris Johnson by Michael Heseltine. Why
:14:46. > :14:50.did Downing Street think it would be a good idea to put Michael Heseltine
:14:51. > :14:54.up? Two broad reasons. One Boris Johnson is an easy target, a member
:14:55. > :14:59.of the political cabinet but not the full cabinet. The second, they
:15:00. > :15:02.believed that the spats he is getting into our process,
:15:03. > :15:05.personality, and if you talk about process and personality in a
:15:06. > :15:09.referendum, like Alex Salmond did, you lose. You need to talk about
:15:10. > :15:12.substance. It is important to say that the league campaign believe
:15:13. > :15:16.that the prime ministers reached a new level of absurdity today when he
:15:17. > :15:21.said that the leader of Isis would be very happy if Britain left of the
:15:22. > :15:23.European Union. So who is the one they are really worried about? They
:15:24. > :15:27.are most concerned about Michael Gove. They believe that he has not
:15:28. > :15:32.been particularly straightforward with them. They believe that he has
:15:33. > :15:36.been particularly aggressive in his attacks on some areas of government
:15:37. > :15:39.policy and that is ironic because tomorrow we will see a Queen's
:15:40. > :15:43.Speech in which the Prime Minister sets out his vision for the post
:15:44. > :15:46.referendum period, to be the great Tory social reformer. And which
:15:47. > :15:50.minister will be at the heart of that with a reform programme?
:15:51. > :15:55.Michael Gove. One area we will have to wait for is the human bill of
:15:56. > :15:59.rights, which is not quite ready. It will be signposted tomorrow but we
:16:00. > :16:02.will not see it. On the face of it this gives Labour, in the form of
:16:03. > :16:08.the Shadow chancellor, and more. It does indeed and we had a full
:16:09. > :16:14.throated endorsement of a senior Labour figure, which is unheard of,
:16:15. > :16:19.even in the days were Gordon Brown used to duff up the European Union.
:16:20. > :16:23.Why is John McDonnell so pro European? Two reasons, once it could
:16:24. > :16:26.be Labour voters who decide the referendum. If it is Tory
:16:27. > :16:30.infighting, they might be switched off. Secondly, in the aftermath,
:16:31. > :16:35.they do not want Labour in the north-west of England to suffer the
:16:36. > :16:37.fate of the Labour party in Scotland.
:16:38. > :16:40.Joining me now is the shadow chancellor John McDonnell.
:16:41. > :16:46.You spoke about never sharing a platform with the Tories on this
:16:47. > :16:52.campaign. Even if it would mean squeezing that last drop of Remain a
:16:53. > :16:57.voter, you would not share a platform? We have seen what has
:16:58. > :17:00.happened within the Tory Party. It is like a pub brawl. I think they
:17:01. > :17:04.are demeaning the debate. I think they have lost control of this
:17:05. > :17:09.debate. The people on the doorstep are saying time and time again, we
:17:10. > :17:13.just want the facts, we want your vision for Europe. And they want a
:17:14. > :17:17.considered debate. That is why I do not want to have anything to do with
:17:18. > :17:21.this debate. We will talk about divisions in a moment but I would
:17:22. > :17:25.like to say one more time, and imagine it is incredibly close and
:17:26. > :17:30.you have to make a last push. Are you so concerned about keeping away
:17:31. > :17:33.from the Tories, for history, not least Scotland, so concerned about
:17:34. > :17:37.keeping away from them that they would not share a platform and say,
:17:38. > :17:41.we will put our differences aside because we believe so strongly in
:17:42. > :17:46.the European Union? You would not even do that? It would not work, it
:17:47. > :17:49.would turn people off. Any association with what is going on
:17:50. > :17:53.with the Tory Party is turning people off. The people we need to
:17:54. > :17:57.get out the vote are voters and young people. But don't you think,
:17:58. > :18:02.the very thing you are saying is that people want to see vision. And
:18:03. > :18:07.even if you have different within Europe, what you are actually saying
:18:08. > :18:14.is that even if people want me to stand on that club run -- platform,
:18:15. > :18:18.I will not do it because of my own politics. Not at all. You are not
:18:19. > :18:21.listening. It would be counter-productive. I want to win
:18:22. > :18:25.the debate and I want us to remain within Europe. Any association with
:18:26. > :18:30.the Tory brawl would undermine that ability to win the debate. Moving on
:18:31. > :18:34.to talk about labour in the north-east. A lot of the problems
:18:35. > :18:37.you have in the north-east, a lot of Labour supporters have become very
:18:38. > :18:42.Eurosceptic over the issue of jobs. And yet today, for perhaps the very
:18:43. > :18:47.first time, we have heard a member of the Labour leadership giving a
:18:48. > :18:52.full throated endorsement to the free movement of people. Shall I
:18:53. > :18:55.tell you why? Because the free movement of people is a condition of
:18:56. > :19:00.being part of the EU and part of that single market that we so
:19:01. > :19:04.desperately need. In the north-east, it is interesting you mentioned the
:19:05. > :19:07.north-east because that is where many car manufacturers in particular
:19:08. > :19:12.have been developed. The reason it has been developed there is because
:19:13. > :19:19.of the debasing of the UK market overall. Protecting jobs is key. If
:19:20. > :19:23.you understand Labour members' fears of immigration is... Of course I do.
:19:24. > :19:27.We did a programme from Boston and we were told by people they are,
:19:28. > :19:31.Labour supporters, that this is a disaster for them and their children
:19:32. > :19:34.and we will not get jobs. Of course I understand their concerns but we
:19:35. > :19:37.have to have a rational debate and that is why I am worried about
:19:38. > :19:42.Project fear from both sides of the Conservative party. It is not
:19:43. > :19:45.allowing rational debate on things like immigration because the issue
:19:46. > :19:49.around immigration is one we have to address. But the issues around jobs
:19:50. > :19:53.and housing and public services is because of a government failure, a
:19:54. > :19:57.Tory government failure. But with respect, you cannot issue the
:19:58. > :20:00.immigration issue within the EU because you have signed up for free
:20:01. > :20:05.movement. It is not about immigration. It is about arguing the
:20:06. > :20:10.case that signing up to the free movement of people allows people to
:20:11. > :20:14.go to Europe and have jobs. It does mean people coming here at a time
:20:15. > :20:17.when we need them in our economy to grow the economy, which will then
:20:18. > :20:21.enable us to have jobs for everybody. You called the European
:20:22. > :20:24.Union a superstate based on capitalism. You have consistently
:20:25. > :20:30.voted against further integration and you were one of the biggest
:20:31. > :20:34.banes of Tony Blair's life as an EU rebel. Can you put your hand on your
:20:35. > :20:38.heart and say that you truly back the EU? Let me be clear of what I
:20:39. > :20:42.have been saying consistently. I believe we should be within Europe
:20:43. > :20:45.but I do not believe the European institutions, as it stands,
:20:46. > :20:49.functions effectively. It needs to be more open and democratic so I am
:20:50. > :20:51.campaigning to remain within Europe, within the EU, but to reform the EU.
:20:52. > :21:08.I want to put a quote to you. It is easier for people to imagine
:21:09. > :21:10.the end of the earth than the end of capitalism. That is what we are
:21:11. > :21:13.about. That sounds like the John McDonnell that we know. That is a
:21:14. > :21:16.quote from a guy called Jamieson. Which I quoted in an article in the
:21:17. > :21:17.New Yorker. I want to transform our system. I do not believe that
:21:18. > :21:21.capitalism serves the system. I do not believe that
:21:22. > :21:29.of capitalism? I want to transform the system, which means adapting
:21:30. > :21:32.capitalism. We need to change the European system
:21:33. > :21:34.capitalism. We need to change the and democratic
:21:35. > :21:37.capitalism. We need to change the stranglehold. So you want to
:21:38. > :21:42.capitalism. We need to change the in the same club
:21:43. > :21:42.capitalism. We need to change the Goldman Sachs? And I want to
:21:43. > :21:47.challenge their Goldman Sachs? And I want to
:21:48. > :21:51.European Union at the moment, an economic policy, it means you are
:21:52. > :21:52.shouting down the letterbox. You will not be in their negotiating,
:21:53. > :21:57.you will not be working will not be in their negotiating,
:21:58. > :22:06.other social Democratic parties and progressive movements to transform
:22:07. > :22:08.Europe. To work for the end of capitalism? To transform capitalism,
:22:09. > :22:09.working for our economic system. Let's talk about anti-Semitism.
:22:10. > :22:15.First, Baroness Janet Royle was looking into anti-Semitism at Oxford
:22:16. > :22:19.and she said that Labour members who are guilty of anti-Semitism should
:22:20. > :22:21.not be out of the party for life. What is your view? I took a strong
:22:22. > :22:25.view on this. I What is your view? I took a strong
:22:26. > :22:29.serious enough, I do not want these people to be members of our party.
:22:30. > :22:33.So we have a difference of view. I think any form of racism now,
:22:34. > :22:38.wherever it is, particularly within our party, we have to be extremely
:22:39. > :22:39.wherever it is, particularly within in the future. She has written this
:22:40. > :22:50.that will report so presumably
:22:51. > :22:54.that will to our national executive committee
:22:55. > :22:56.and it will influence policy in the future. Let's
:22:57. > :22:57.and it will influence policy in the Livingstone. Can he ever be a member
:22:58. > :23:01.of the party again? I do not want to process that he will need to go
:23:02. > :23:03.through. But you are saying process that he will need to go
:23:04. > :23:08.cannot be a member of the party. process that he will need to go
:23:09. > :23:12.Everybody has to have a fair process. I cannot influence that
:23:13. > :23:16.process in advance, whether it is Ken Livingstone or any other member.
:23:17. > :23:21.I cannot do that. I have made my view absolutely clear on what I feel
:23:22. > :23:25.about anti-Semitism and if someone is being anti-Semitic within our
:23:26. > :23:29.party, I have made my view clear. It is for due process within our party
:23:30. > :23:33.and the real authorities to judge. As you say yourself, these
:23:34. > :23:37.committees will be As you say yourself, these
:23:38. > :23:40.entirely. So if they are entirely independent, then you can say what
:23:41. > :23:44.you want right now and it will have no impact on the committee. Whatever
:23:45. > :23:50.I say now we'll have some influence and I do not want to prejudge
:23:51. > :23:52.Fifty years ago, when Mao Zedong unleashed millions of China's
:23:53. > :23:54.youth to attack parents, teachers institutions,
:23:55. > :23:57.temples, the Party itself, they set out to destroy the very
:23:58. > :24:06.The Red Guard persecuted 36 million people and killed more
:24:07. > :24:09.than a million as Mao pursued his cult of personality.
:24:10. > :24:11.In a moment I'll be speaking to the author of one
:24:12. > :24:13.of the best-selling books of all time, Wild Swans,
:24:14. > :24:16.whose family lived through the Cultural Revolution, but first -
:24:17. > :24:34.The great proletarian Cultural Revolution.
:24:35. > :24:36.Its stated aim, to wipe out the four olds.
:24:37. > :24:47.Old customs, old culture, old habits, and old ideas.
:24:48. > :24:50.To that end, Mao unleashed his Red Guards, bands of zealous students
:24:51. > :24:55.sent out to beat their elders into submission.
:24:56. > :24:58.But the real aim was not culture but politics.
:24:59. > :25:01.The Cultural Revolution was a purge of Mao's enemies at the top
:25:02. > :25:04.It resulted in years of violence and terror.
:25:05. > :25:08.Today, China is a very different place.
:25:09. > :25:10.Maoism has been replaced by capitalism, known
:25:11. > :25:23.euphemistically as socialism with Chinese characteristics.
:25:24. > :25:28.And yet, the Communist Party that provided over the cultural
:25:29. > :25:32.Just as in Mao's day, there are still power struggles
:25:33. > :25:46.Purges now happen in the courtroom, not as lynches
:25:47. > :25:55.But they are purges nonetheless.
:25:56. > :25:58.Some old habits have survived.
:25:59. > :26:00.Just as in Mao's day, official policy is enunciated
:26:01. > :26:04.Yesterday, on the 50th anniversary of the start of the
:26:05. > :26:06.Cultural Revolution, it was silent on the matter.
:26:07. > :26:08.But today an editorial in the People's Daily calls
:26:09. > :26:10.the Cultural Revolution huge disaster, one which
:26:11. > :26:13.The lessons of history, it says, have given China asserting
:26:14. > :26:16."Nobody", it concludes, "fears turmoil and desires
:26:17. > :26:19.Jung Chang is the author of Wild Swans and also
:26:20. > :26:27.First of all, in Wild Swans you write about three generations living
:26:28. > :26:35.through the cultural Revolution. Can you explain how bad it was? Well, I
:26:36. > :26:43.was 14 when the cultural Revolution started in 1966. Schools were
:26:44. > :26:45.closed. There was no schooling, and children were encouraged to attack
:26:46. > :26:52.their teachers. I saw my teacher being tortured, subjected to
:26:53. > :27:02.gigantic denunciation meetings, being beaten up. I saw fellow pupils
:27:03. > :27:10.trying to commit suicide. It was a nightmare. But for your own family,
:27:11. > :27:15.what happened? Well, my parents were victims of the Cultural Revolution.
:27:16. > :27:22.My father was one of the few who spoke out against the violence. As a
:27:23. > :27:26.result, he was arrested, tortured, driven insane. And he was exiled to
:27:27. > :27:34.a camp and died maturely and tragically. My mother was under
:27:35. > :27:41.pressure to denounce my father but she refused. So she was subject to
:27:42. > :27:47.over 100 of these ghastly enunciation meetings. Basically, the
:27:48. > :27:52.victims were stood on the platform, facing a hysterical crowd. My
:27:53. > :27:57.mother's arms, like other victims, were twisted to the back, and she
:27:58. > :28:02.was kicked and beaten. Did you witness this? Yes, we all saw this.
:28:03. > :28:08.People of my generation have all seen this. And have been brutalised.
:28:09. > :28:13.And you still feel that, you still feel that part of you has been
:28:14. > :28:18.scarred by it? I feel that yes, I feel strongly. In a way, I am very
:28:19. > :28:24.lucky as I was able to read a book about it. I wrote Wild Swans and I
:28:25. > :28:30.turned the trauma into memory, so I can talk to you about it. But I
:28:31. > :28:37.wonder, the people of your age now, the people that are 14, 15 now,
:28:38. > :28:40.unless they have read Wild Swans, where will they get any information
:28:41. > :28:44.about it? What do young Chinese people know about the Cultural
:28:45. > :28:51.Revolution? Basically, not much. Because my books are banned in
:28:52. > :28:57.China. Like other books of a kind. There are people who are saying
:28:58. > :29:03.these mindless things in favour of the Cultural Revolution. Things that
:29:04. > :29:09.do not get banned. A lot of people do not really know what happened.
:29:10. > :29:14.The really curious ones can search the internet, trying to climb over
:29:15. > :29:19.the firewall, but many others just don't know. And I wonder what you
:29:20. > :29:24.think about the future in China, whether you would think China would
:29:25. > :29:30.ever move to a 1-party state, or do you think that this idea of economic
:29:31. > :29:34.advancement and a 1-party state will continue because people are just too
:29:35. > :29:41.frightened of change? I am afraid it is going to continue for a long
:29:42. > :29:47.time, and basically I think that most people, if you ask them, they
:29:48. > :29:52.would say that democracy is a good idea. But most people would also
:29:53. > :29:56.fear what might happen in transition, whether they might be
:29:57. > :30:04.getting something worse than they got today. But that is almost not
:30:05. > :30:10.the issue. I think the issue is that there should be an open discussion
:30:11. > :30:18.about the Cultural Revolution, because the Communist Party itself
:30:19. > :30:29.has categorically rejected it. Finally. After chairman now died. --
:30:30. > :30:33.Chairman Mao died. I think that is the real issue. From my point of
:30:34. > :30:34.view, I would like to see my books published in China. Thank you very
:30:35. > :30:37.much. The psychedelic sixties
:30:38. > :30:39.as celebrated by writers such as Tom Wolfe in
:30:40. > :30:42.The Electric Cool Aid Acid Test, featuring Ken Kesey,
:30:43. > :30:44.and the poetry of Allen Ginsberg are all a half a century ago
:30:45. > :30:46.now, but psychedelia Researchers at Imperial College
:30:47. > :30:53.have, for the first time today, published the results of a trial
:30:54. > :30:55.into psilocybin and its effects The substance is the 'magic'
:30:56. > :31:01.element in magic mushrooms Doctors believe it could have
:31:02. > :31:09.medicinal qualities. The only slight problem is,
:31:10. > :31:11.it's a banned substance. In an ordinary hospital
:31:12. > :31:17.room, something very out Step by step, it's being transformed
:31:18. > :31:29.into a psychedelic lounge. Over the last 12 months,
:31:30. > :31:33.patients with severe drug resistant depression have been brought
:31:34. > :31:39.into this room and given a strong and illegal hallucinogenic,
:31:40. > :31:41.psilocybin, the active ingredient In charge of this radical new drug
:31:42. > :31:47.trial is scientist Robin So the room has been transformed
:31:48. > :31:52.from a bog-standard hospital room We're trying to provide
:31:53. > :32:03.a setting that is supportive, warm, nurturing, where the patient
:32:04. > :32:07.can feel safe and supported, and free and able to
:32:08. > :32:12.open up, really. This is one of a number of recent
:32:13. > :32:16.trials reviving some of the most controversial psychiatric research
:32:17. > :32:20.of the 1950s and 1960s. After receiving a small dose of LSD,
:32:21. > :32:24.they're confused and undisciplined. Around 40,000 patients
:32:25. > :32:26.worldwide were treated with psychedelics for everything
:32:27. > :32:33.from alcoholism to schizophrenia. That all stopped when governments
:32:34. > :32:37.around the world began Half a century later,
:32:38. > :32:43.and doctors are tentatively picking up this research,
:32:44. > :32:46.with around a dozen trials now worldwide beginning to explore
:32:47. > :32:50.medical uses of psychedelics. Andrew Thayer was one of 20
:32:51. > :32:54.patients on the trial. He's struggled with depression
:32:55. > :32:59.for two decades. It's hard to describe
:33:00. > :33:01.the hopelessness that you feel I got to a place last November
:33:02. > :33:19.where I had pretty much given up, I thought, I just can't
:33:20. > :33:21.do this any more. He found out about the trial
:33:22. > :33:23.online and applied. That is how, three months ago,
:33:24. > :33:28.he found himself in a hospital room in West London, being given
:33:29. > :33:37.a Class A psychedelic drug. Roz Watts is a clinical psychologist
:33:38. > :33:40.who helps guide patients I was surprised at the level of his
:33:41. > :33:44.suffering because when we met him he was so charming and sensitive
:33:45. > :33:47.to other people's needs and so great at conversation
:33:48. > :33:54.that it was difficult to see the suffering at first, but we did
:33:55. > :33:57.see it in the dosing days. We realised how much he had
:33:58. > :34:14.been struggling against. It started off fairly pleasantly,
:34:15. > :34:21.but it soon got pretty dark. I described it as a
:34:22. > :34:30.black tide coming in. Often with psychedelics,
:34:31. > :34:32.emotions and difficult experiences that have been repressed
:34:33. > :34:35.because they are so uncomfortable And that can be very healthy
:34:36. > :34:47.and very positive in terms of change because avoidance of difficult
:34:48. > :34:50.emotion is really at the heart Roz said, just concentrate on this
:34:51. > :35:10.rose, and she picked up the rose This rose had taken on a life
:35:11. > :35:17.of its own, and was definitely trying to communicate that
:35:18. > :35:23.everything is fine, beautiful. It's worth saying that patients had
:35:24. > :35:26.a variety of different experiences It was unclear at the time
:35:27. > :35:31.what long-term effect Today, scientists published
:35:32. > :35:38.their results in the Lancet. So these are the results
:35:39. > :35:41.from the study so far, This is a measure of the severity
:35:42. > :35:55.of patients' depression. You can see one week
:35:56. > :35:59.post-treatment, you can see that virtually every
:36:00. > :36:01.patient shows some decrease But the results do look much more
:36:02. > :36:05.mixed when you go past one week. When you go past three months,
:36:06. > :36:08.there are patients that are kind That's right, and so we are seeing
:36:09. > :36:13.signs of relapse in That's quite common in depression,
:36:14. > :36:21.particularly treatment It tells us really that this
:36:22. > :36:25.isn't a magic cure. Even so, if we were to take average
:36:26. > :36:29.scores, even up to three months and six months post-treatment,
:36:30. > :36:31.the really is quite a highly significant decrease
:36:32. > :36:32.in depressive tendencies. The researchers believe that
:36:33. > :36:34.psilocybin increases the It's speculated that in depression
:36:35. > :36:42.the brain gets stuck into repetitive negative
:36:43. > :36:44.patterns of thinking. So if we can introduce
:36:45. > :36:47.a kind of flexibility into the mind and into the brain,
:36:48. > :36:51.then perhaps that can help us shift an individual out of that rut
:36:52. > :36:56.that they have become stuck in. The problem is at this stage
:36:57. > :36:59.and this is only a theory. On the study itself is not
:37:00. > :37:01.without its difficulties. There is an ethical issue here,
:37:02. > :37:03.isn't there, of taking people who are very severely depressed,
:37:04. > :37:11.taking them off antidepressants, giving them a Class A drug and then
:37:12. > :37:14.not giving them the therapy If they decide to come
:37:15. > :37:17.off their medication, We closely monitor them,
:37:18. > :37:21.and we stay in contact with their mental health
:37:22. > :37:24.practitioner or GP. I think people should consider
:37:25. > :37:27.that if ever they think, I want to go out and find some magic
:37:28. > :37:31.mushrooms, and I have to come In the context of this
:37:32. > :37:38.trial, the way we did Three months after Andy's trial,
:37:39. > :37:42.and he is still coming to terms I think what I am experiencing
:37:43. > :37:49.are after-shocks. Because even now, I will have good
:37:50. > :37:54.days and bad days but some of the good days are outnumbering
:37:55. > :37:57.the bad days and I am And I wouldn't have
:37:58. > :38:02.thought that was possible. On the whole, I think it has
:38:03. > :38:05.moved me into a different direction. It has kicked me out
:38:06. > :38:11.of the rut, as it were. Andy believes that psilocybin has
:38:12. > :38:16.benefited him but the trial, by clinical standards,
:38:17. > :38:18.is tiny and researchers admit that much more evidence is needed before
:38:19. > :38:21.they can be sure of the effects Another larger trial
:38:22. > :38:25.is planned, but this kind It's unlikely then, that your local
:38:26. > :38:29.GP will be able to prescribe There was a lot of apron wringing
:38:30. > :38:43.about the BBC's announcement today that 11,000 recipes would be excised
:38:44. > :38:46.from the website and new ones Such was the brouhaha
:38:47. > :38:51.that the BBC changed the plan. Now they're saying that most
:38:52. > :38:53.of the recipes will now appear To celebrate, we've come up
:38:54. > :39:14.with our own contribution... I am now cooking very quickly some
:39:15. > :39:17.linguine with spicy tomato sauce and mussels. I would just like to tell
:39:18. > :39:22.you that I have been cooking these tomatoes with red and Ian, chilli
:39:23. > :39:27.and garlic for the duration of the programme. They are almost ready. To
:39:28. > :39:32.finish them off I will add some tinned tomatoes to give moisture and
:39:33. > :39:40.on the right-hand side I cooking up fresh linguini. I'm going to make
:39:41. > :39:45.sure these are well mixed in. Then with the mussels I have cooked them
:39:46. > :39:49.in white wine and spring onion and I have shelled all of them except for
:39:50. > :39:58.some which I will use for garnish. Now I am going to pop this straight
:39:59. > :40:05.into here. The important thing is to whiz it up. I appear not to have
:40:06. > :40:15.anyone from Masterchef to help me. I will put it here and I will with
:40:16. > :40:25.this up. Just to make sure it does not splutter any of the crew. I will
:40:26. > :40:30.just keep this going, to get all that, I quite like a bit of texture
:40:31. > :40:36.in it. That great word, texture! That is just about done. So now what
:40:37. > :40:46.I am going to do is strain my linguini. Brilliant. I'm going to
:40:47. > :40:49.put my linguini in here. And once that is fully... I'm just going to
:40:50. > :40:57.mix this straight into my tomato sauce. I'm going to mix it up and
:40:58. > :41:01.I'm going to add my mussels, like so. This is quite quick, easy dish
:41:02. > :41:08.to do. And then, first so. This is quite quick, easy dish
:41:09. > :41:13.little into the plate and so. This is quite quick, easy dish
:41:14. > :41:19.Jung Chang if she would like to have some. This looks messy and would not
:41:20. > :41:23.pass the test. I'm going to put a little on here and garnish it with a
:41:24. > :41:31.couple of mussels and I am going to give Jung Chang a little linguini
:41:32. > :41:37.with mussels. Spicy! Not beautifully served. Wonderful, wonderful, this
:41:38. > :41:42.is my dinner! If you like the recipe right in with a stamped addressed
:41:43. > :41:44.envelope for my tomato spiced linguini with mussels and a little
:41:45. > :42:06.parsley for garnish. OK? Good evening, Wednesday will be very
:42:07. > :42:12.changeable, threatening clouds never far away, the chance of catching
:42:13. > :42:15.changeable, threatening clouds never across England,