:00:00. > :00:07.And a government dealing with dissent within opts
:00:08. > :00:24.My government will use the opportunity of a strengthening
:00:25. > :00:29.economy to deliver security for working people to increase life
:00:30. > :00:32.chances for the most disadvantaged and to strengthen national defences.
:00:33. > :00:35.We'll ask this Cabinet member if her government
:00:36. > :00:41.The US senate has passed a highly controversial bill that lets
:00:42. > :00:43.the families of 9/11 victims sue Saudi Arabia.
:00:44. > :00:48.One family member will tell us why they'd like to.
:00:49. > :01:03.Jeff Koons is a world-renowned artist and so is Damien Hirst. On
:01:04. > :01:09.Newsnight, an exclusive television interview about what happens when
:01:10. > :01:12.Damien Hirst puts on a show of Jeff Koons' work in London.
:01:13. > :01:16.It's not easy to write 1,000 words when you haven't got much
:01:17. > :01:19.to say - as some newspaper columnists demonstrate each week.
:01:20. > :01:21.And maybe that was the problem of the Government in
:01:22. > :01:23.drafting the 936-word Queen's Speech we heard today.
:01:24. > :01:26.It wasn't so much that the Government has nothing to say -
:01:27. > :01:29.it's just that with a slender majority and the party
:01:30. > :01:32.in the midst of a vicious brawl, getting a majority on anything
:01:33. > :01:37.So out came a miscellany of items in the not-so-difficult file.
:01:38. > :01:41.Measures to promote driverless cars, hints that we'll
:01:42. > :01:44.build a space port - which Twitter noted, we'll get
:01:45. > :01:49.And some measures aimed at enhancing social mobility.
:01:50. > :01:52.But of course, everything is seen through referendum glasses right
:01:53. > :01:56.now, so one highlight was the non-appearance of any Bill
:01:57. > :02:16.From Buckingham Palace, attended by an escort of Household Cavalry, the
:02:17. > :02:20.Queen with Prince Philip begins her drive through the capital. The
:02:21. > :02:25.annual ritual has barely changed in the 63 years the Queen has arrived
:02:26. > :02:30.at the Palace of Westminster in her coach. The Queen has thankfully
:02:31. > :02:34.never been burdened with having to write her speech, guaranteeing the
:02:35. > :02:39.message changes as Prime Minister 's come and go. This year marked the
:02:40. > :02:43.moment when her 12th Prime Minister, David Cameron, laid the ground for
:02:44. > :02:51.what he hopes will be the legacy of the second and final phase of his
:02:52. > :02:56.premiership. He wants to be seen as one of the great social reformers,
:02:57. > :03:01.such as William Wilberforce, who ended slavery in much of the British
:03:02. > :03:07.Empire. My government will legislate to reform prisonstoday's Queen's
:03:08. > :03:12.Speech included measures to enhance the life chances of children in a
:03:13. > :03:17.social work Bill, and measures to improve decrepit prisons. But the
:03:18. > :03:22.Prime Minister knows he needs to win the EU referendum to have any hope
:03:23. > :03:27.of fulfilling his ambitions. Even if he wins, he may have his ambitions
:03:28. > :03:33.clouded by two factors, the shadow of Europe and his slim majority. The
:03:34. > :03:37.Prime Minister showed he is walking on eggshells when two bills related
:03:38. > :03:43.to Europe were shelved and delayed respectively. Brexit Cabinet
:03:44. > :03:47.Minister 's were on their best behaviour, not least because Justice
:03:48. > :03:51.Secretary Michael Gove will be at the heart of delivering reforms. But
:03:52. > :03:53.one leading supporter of the Leave campaign suggests there could be
:03:54. > :04:01.trouble ahead for one little campaign suggests there could be
:04:02. > :04:07.aspect of the Prime Minister's deal, relinquishing the -- the veto in
:04:08. > :04:11.relation to eurozone rules. We have already agreed in advance to
:04:12. > :04:16.implement it, even though it could be harmful. That's what it is to be
:04:17. > :04:21.a sitting duck, or it will be if we choose to remain in the European
:04:22. > :04:26.Union. Today, Liam Fox insists he will accept the result of the
:04:27. > :04:29.referendum, but I understand that some Eurosceptics are planning to
:04:30. > :04:32.referendum, but I understand that use the forthcoming Tory leadership
:04:33. > :04:37.contest to join battle on Europe again. When the leadership hustings
:04:38. > :04:42.are eventually held, the candidates will be asked one simple question -
:04:43. > :04:47.will you agree to restore British veto? There is probably only one
:04:48. > :04:51.answer you can give to that question, attention the leading to
:04:52. > :04:53.the unravelling of the Prime Minister's EU deal, and in the heart
:04:54. > :04:59.of Eurosceptics, laying the grounds Minister's EU deal, and in the heart
:05:00. > :05:04.for a possible second referendum. But one of Boris Johnson's allies
:05:05. > :05:08.believes the Brexiters will be punished if they refuse to accept
:05:09. > :05:12.defeat in the referendum. If we were to ignore the specific mandate from
:05:13. > :05:17.the British people I think they would be furious. So the message I
:05:18. > :05:21.would send out to everybody across the political spectrum is to respect
:05:22. > :05:27.the decision the British people make, both in the general election
:05:28. > :05:31.and in the referendum this year, to rally behind the Prime Minister. If
:05:32. > :05:34.the referendum goes his way, the Prime Minister will still have to
:05:35. > :05:41.tread carefully, in might of his slim majority. The majority is very
:05:42. > :05:47.small. There will be more rebellions, obviously. Then there is
:05:48. > :05:51.the problem of Tory election expenses and by-elections looming. I
:05:52. > :05:55.do think it is a very comfortable position for him, even if we vote to
:05:56. > :06:01.stay in, which I hope we will. There are signs that the government is
:06:02. > :06:06.keen to avoid future Parliamentary bust ups. I understand Theresa May
:06:07. > :06:10.is listening carefully to Labour and Tory critics of the contentious
:06:11. > :06:18.investor greet Powers Bill, or snooper's charter. There will be
:06:19. > :06:22.some move to secure cooperation on the timing of the bill. Downing
:06:23. > :06:32.Street is finessing the next stage of David Cameron's premiership, but
:06:33. > :06:35.he will only make progress if the dark clouds of Europe are cleared.
:06:36. > :06:38.We'll talk to Liz Truss shortly, Secretary of State for Environment,
:06:39. > :06:42.But before we do, it's been a busy old day in politics,
:06:43. > :06:44.because not only did we have a Queen's Speech,
:06:45. > :06:47.there was also a settlement in the junior doctors dispute.
:06:48. > :06:49.Everyone says you shouldn't talk about winners and losers,
:06:50. > :06:51.but if you do want to, it does look like the
:06:52. > :06:54.Won the battle, but maybe losing the NHS.
:06:55. > :07:02.What exactly is the settlement, and what have the government got out of
:07:03. > :07:08.this? The last time there were talks, they ended when the BMA, the
:07:09. > :07:12.doctors union, declined to talk about reducing overtime for doctors
:07:13. > :07:16.who work on Saturday. The government wanted that because they want to
:07:17. > :07:20.move to what they called the seven-day NHS. The BMA wouldn't even
:07:21. > :07:26.talk about it and the government withdrew from talks. Then there were
:07:27. > :07:30.strikes. The deal agreed today doesn't give overtime for normal
:07:31. > :07:35.work on a Saturday or Sunday, which has been a bit of a shock to a lot
:07:36. > :07:40.of junior doctors, who didn't know it was on the table. You do get a
:07:41. > :07:45.bit of extra pay if you work enough Saturdays and Sundays, but it is not
:07:46. > :07:48.the volumes you get at the moment. The total effect, from the
:07:49. > :07:54.Department of Health's perspective, is that they think there is roughly
:07:55. > :08:01.a 30% cuts to the cost of staffing in a facility with junior doctors
:08:02. > :08:04.compared to the current situation. A really big saving. A lot of people
:08:05. > :08:10.think the seven-day NHS is about to happen, but there's quite a lot
:08:11. > :08:13.going on in the NHS. That isn't a foregone conclusion because the BMA
:08:14. > :08:24.members have to vote. The bigger point is that the NHS is in
:08:25. > :08:29.difficulty. Around 87% are seen within four hours. The target is
:08:30. > :08:34.95%. There's all sorts of measures where things are not going badly
:08:35. > :08:40.wrong. 2 million people turned up at a accident and emergency. The NHS is
:08:41. > :08:45.going at the same speed but it hasn't kept up with a wave of
:08:46. > :08:46.demand. You see that with performance measures and on the
:08:47. > :08:49.financial side as well. Thank you. The Environment Secretary
:08:50. > :09:01.Liz Truss is here. Can we start on the NHS. What do you
:09:02. > :09:06.make of it? I am pleased there has been a resolution on this dispute.
:09:07. > :09:13.Jeremy Hunt has set forward a very important reform agenda, a seven-day
:09:14. > :09:16.NHS, which we need to see in order to see the improvements in care we
:09:17. > :09:21.want to see as a nation. We are investing more money in the NHS,
:09:22. > :09:26.which is important. Can we not argue that this is just one enormous
:09:27. > :09:34.distraction. The service is drowning at the moment, according to Chris.
:09:35. > :09:39.30% of page -- 13% of patients are waiting to be seen more than four
:09:40. > :09:45.hours at A Huge deficits last year. Finance chiefs at hospitals
:09:46. > :09:49.are expecting the same to happen this year. Has this not just been a
:09:50. > :09:56.terrible waste of everybody's time and effort while the NHS is in a
:09:57. > :10:00.real problem? We are seeing rising demand for NHS services. We are
:10:01. > :10:06.seeing the increasing cost of things like drugs. Jeremy Hughes doing a
:10:07. > :10:12.fantastic job. Having a big, distracting strike on another issue?
:10:13. > :10:16.Getting to where we want to in terms of a seven-day NHS, which has huge
:10:17. > :10:22.public support and is a manifesto commitment. But achieving that
:10:23. > :10:27.agreement with doctors. Doctors worked very hard and are the
:10:28. > :10:31.backbone of the NHS. I think the public will be very pleased that we
:10:32. > :10:37.have got to a resolution on this issue, and we are moving forward on
:10:38. > :10:40.this seven-day NHS. On the Queen's Speech, a lot of people have said it
:10:41. > :10:49.is somewhat watered down. There's not a lot in there. I think it is
:10:50. > :10:53.nonsense. I was surprised that one of the big decisions we were going
:10:54. > :10:58.to get, airport capacity in the south-east, didn't get a mention. We
:10:59. > :11:02.are looking at airport capacity and a decision will be made on that.
:11:03. > :11:09.That has been heavily trailed already. There are two important
:11:10. > :11:16.bills. There are over 20 bills in the Queen's Speech, covering all
:11:17. > :11:20.kinds of areas, such as improving our productivity and social mobility
:11:21. > :11:25.as a country. Prison Reform Trust and been done since Victorian times.
:11:26. > :11:33.This is the biggest reform of Britain we've seen for a generation.
:11:34. > :11:41.University reform, new universities established, looking at the quality
:11:42. > :11:45.of teaching... This is a substantial Queen's Speech with very important
:11:46. > :11:50.bills which are addressing the key issues we face as a country, which
:11:51. > :11:55.is we have the second lowest productivity in the G7, and we have
:11:56. > :12:00.very low rates of social mobility. What about the British bill of
:12:01. > :12:05.rights? In the Queen's Speech last year, the Queen said, my government
:12:06. > :12:09.will bring forward proposals for the British bill of rights. If that
:12:10. > :12:16.happened? The government has been working hard on this. She didn't
:12:17. > :12:20.bring it forward, which is why she said the same this year. Are we
:12:21. > :12:26.going to hear it every year, or will it happen? It is a very complicated
:12:27. > :12:30.legal issue. There are lots of ins and outs to discuss. You started
:12:31. > :12:35.talking about it when you were and outs to discuss. You started
:12:36. > :12:39.opposition. We are damned if we do, downed if we don't. If we put
:12:40. > :12:45.something forward before it is ready, we get criticised. We are
:12:46. > :12:47.working on something that is very important, bringing more
:12:48. > :12:53.working on something that is very sense to human rights decisions.
:12:54. > :12:54.Will it come this year? We are working on proposals and it's
:12:55. > :12:59.important to get it right. And working on proposals and it's
:13:00. > :13:02.another one that David working on proposals and it's
:13:03. > :13:09.tantalise the party with. He said we would set out proposals to make
:13:10. > :13:14.cleared the British Parliament's sovereignty. What happened to that
:13:15. > :13:23.Bill? We are in the middle of a referendum campaign. We are voting
:13:24. > :13:26.for that on June the 23rd. During that campaign, the British people
:13:27. > :13:35.have to make a decision about whether they want to be in or out of
:13:36. > :13:40.the EU. I am a big supporter of Remain. I think we will be better
:13:41. > :13:45.off, safer and more secure, but the British people have to make that
:13:46. > :13:50.decision. The sovereignty bill can only follow when we have decided
:13:51. > :13:55.whether we are in or out of the EU. It would be premature to do that
:13:56. > :14:00.before then. He said back in February it would be in the coming
:14:01. > :14:05.days. The general point here is that everything is about trying to hold
:14:06. > :14:12.the party together, which means tantalising each side of the party
:14:13. > :14:15.with things they want. David Cameron has to offer these things every now
:14:16. > :14:20.and then to some of his party to keep them loyal. Isn't that the
:14:21. > :14:26.correct way to drive this government? What is driving the
:14:27. > :14:32.government is the core issues facing this country, such as improving our
:14:33. > :14:35.productivity, so we can earn more, improving our social mobility, so
:14:36. > :14:43.that people are not left on the scrapheap. For me, that is why I
:14:44. > :14:47.went into politics, because I care about making sure we have a society
:14:48. > :14:53.of opportunity. That is what motivates us as conservatives.
:14:54. > :14:58.Last one, is the referendum going to settle the issue of British
:14:59. > :15:05.membership of the EU? We last had bought 40 years ago, the year I was
:15:06. > :15:12.born. We are having vote now. What I want it to do is to settle that
:15:13. > :15:16.question. I strongly hope that we secure a significant result. For the
:15:17. > :15:19.Remain a side of the debate. I think that is important and I think it
:15:20. > :15:25.would be good for the country. And if you get a leader who is a sceptic
:15:26. > :15:28.and even some on the sceptical side, the Brexit side, say they will
:15:29. > :15:35.accept the result and are hoping for a Brexit leader. Does that work? Do
:15:36. > :15:42.you think a Brexit leader of these Conservative Party can make the best
:15:43. > :15:46.of our relationship with the EU? Well, first of all, we have to have
:15:47. > :15:50.the vote and it is a decision for the British public. This is not
:15:51. > :15:53.about the Conservative Party or who is the next leader, this is a
:15:54. > :15:57.serious question for our country. What I worry about is that the
:15:58. > :16:03.public out there needs to think about the economic impact, the
:16:04. > :16:07.impact on their family and jobs and the opportunities for their
:16:08. > :16:11.children, to do things like travel overseas. This should not be about
:16:12. > :16:17.the Conservative Party. That is not what this decision is about. Liz
:16:18. > :16:19.Truss, and do very much. -- thank you very much.
:16:20. > :16:22.Now ironically, while we discuss all this, the referendum polls have
:16:23. > :16:26.You never have any idea of how much weight to put
:16:27. > :16:28.on these things now, but a phone poll in
:16:29. > :16:30.the Evening Standard tonight put Remain on 55%, Leave on 37%.
:16:31. > :16:43.Do they think something has happened or are they dismissing this?
:16:44. > :16:49.Officially there is no display since complacency in Number Ten and the
:16:50. > :16:52.prime minister's director of Communications is going to take a
:16:53. > :16:57.sabbatical and work for the campaign but in private, senior Tories are
:16:58. > :17:04.saying that they think the referendum is moving the way of In.
:17:05. > :17:07.Also, there was a poll in the daily Telegraph yesterday commissioned by
:17:08. > :17:12.Lynton Crosby who ran the election campaign for the Tories last year
:17:13. > :17:16.and he wrote a piece saying that time was running out for the Brexit
:17:17. > :17:19.campaign. But when we talk about polls, we need to have a health
:17:20. > :17:22.warning because they go down and they go up and they can be wrong.
:17:23. > :17:27.But in private, the Tories are saying that they are saying that
:17:28. > :17:31.they hope that they can finally defeat the Conservative Eurosceptic
:17:32. > :17:36.right that they say it has bedevilled the party with the vision
:17:37. > :17:39.for the last quarter of a party. But Suzanne Evans will say that the
:17:40. > :17:47.remains side is a complacent and out of touch campaign, and that they
:17:48. > :17:51.should talk to Heartland MPs, who have an ease about the referendum.
:17:52. > :17:59.The broad thrust of the campaign, what is happening? There is a letter
:18:00. > :18:01.out tomorrow. What a surprise (!). Who would've thought? Michael
:18:02. > :18:02.Bloomberg saying don't leave, it will risk the economy. Thank you
:18:03. > :18:04.very much. Now we're joined in the studio
:18:05. > :18:12.by Suzanne Evans from Vote Leave. Do you sense that the polls have
:18:13. > :18:15.moved against you? Is that imagination or not? There is only
:18:16. > :18:21.one poll that counts and that is the one when the ballot papers are
:18:22. > :18:24.counted. We know that polls can be misleading, as we found out to our
:18:25. > :18:30.cost in the general election. They say a week is a long time in
:18:31. > :18:33.politics, 38 days is a chance to do a very positive, optimistic
:18:34. > :18:37.campaign. And I am still very confident that we can win. We have
:18:38. > :18:41.the arguments in our favour. They are pulling out the big guns. I had
:18:42. > :18:45.to laugh at you laughing about another letter. I think the public
:18:46. > :18:49.are getting bored of this tit for tat, these big business leaders
:18:50. > :18:52.coming out to support remaining in the European Union. But what are
:18:53. > :18:56.your tactics for the rest of the campaign? There is obviously been a
:18:57. > :19:00.debate about how far you should push the migration issue and it is quite
:19:01. > :19:03.clear that it is an area of huge public concern and clear that you
:19:04. > :19:08.have more options outside the EU than inside the EU on what to do
:19:09. > :19:12.with migration. Absolutely. The Queen's Speech, they were talking
:19:13. > :19:16.about the security of the British people, securing our borders and
:19:17. > :19:19.making sure that wages rise and the welfare bill reduces. Well, you
:19:20. > :19:26.cannot do that within the European Union because we have no control of
:19:27. > :19:29.our borders. But are you going to make more of the immigration
:19:30. > :19:34.argument? Because there has been a debate about how migration should
:19:35. > :19:40.feature. Vote Leave is very much making the migration argument. But I
:19:41. > :19:44.think also that we recognise that most people who are concerned about
:19:45. > :19:47.migration, that is one of the motivating factors to vote to leave.
:19:48. > :19:54.I do not think it is something that we need to do overkill on. As the
:19:55. > :19:59.campaign banked on process things too much? There was a big argument
:20:00. > :20:02.about the debate and Cameron was up against whoever, and a lot of people
:20:03. > :20:07.thought that did not work for you, apart from looking a bit impetuous
:20:08. > :20:10.it was just the wrong subject to be talking about. I think the TV
:20:11. > :20:13.debates will possibly be a game changer and that is why I am saying
:20:14. > :20:18.we're certainly not given up yet. The government should be complacent.
:20:19. > :20:24.I think that if you look around what is happening, the U-turns we have
:20:25. > :20:27.had on academies and junior doctors today, on child refugees, they seem
:20:28. > :20:32.to be bending over backwards to make sure they do not do anything to
:20:33. > :20:38.upset the Remain campaign. And the TV campaigns could be -- the TV
:20:39. > :20:40.debates could be a game changer and I am looking forward to
:20:41. > :20:45.debates could be a game changer and has been another debate on your site
:20:46. > :20:46.about whether there is too much of one two individuals,
:20:47. > :20:47.about whether there is too much of Boris Johnson. Do you think that
:20:48. > :20:52.there has been too much Boris Johnson. Do you think that
:20:53. > :20:58.one or two and needs to be broader front than Boris? We don't put
:20:59. > :21:02.people forward in isolation. We know that Boris is one of the most
:21:03. > :21:06.trusted people in the EU -- on the EU, and that is why he has been
:21:07. > :21:09.front and centre. But there is room for other people and we have been
:21:10. > :21:12.using others. But the media have not picked up on that because Boris is
:21:13. > :21:20.the big celebrity, if you like, but I heard Andrea Leslie and speak
:21:21. > :21:25.yesterday about how the EU threatens our energy security. We know that
:21:26. > :21:26.our energy bills have tripled because of these tariffs and levies
:21:27. > :21:32.imposed by the EU. because of these tariffs and levies
:21:33. > :21:37.Cleverly was in, talking because of these tariffs and levies
:21:38. > :21:39.EU tariffs outside the European Union keep poorer African farmers
:21:40. > :21:45.poor. Either Union keep poorer African farmers
:21:46. > :21:49.cares about the developing world trade,
:21:50. > :21:50.cares about the developing world Farage said that the referendum may
:21:51. > :21:55.not end the matter. Farage said that the referendum may
:21:56. > :22:00.it was close, it would be unfinished business by a long
:22:01. > :22:04.it was close, it would be unfinished view? I think in the short term, the
:22:05. > :22:07.referendum is going to decide the matter. I have always felt that
:22:08. > :22:15.referendum is going to decide the we vote to remain, then the European
:22:16. > :22:20.Union, based on past behaviour will take that on a mandate to push
:22:21. > :22:22.forward with whatever it wants. And any future
:22:23. > :22:22.forward with whatever it wants. And Cameron or whoever it might
:22:23. > :22:26.forward with whatever it wants. And there is a point where we want to
:22:27. > :22:31.say no to the EU, they will turn around and say, I'm sorry Mr Prime
:22:32. > :22:36.Minister, or Mrs prime minister, your people voted
:22:37. > :22:40.Minister, or Mrs prime minister, do not have a mandate. But it cannot
:22:41. > :22:43.come back in five years, can it? What is it, ten, 20, 30 years? If on
:22:44. > :22:46.June the 4th, the What is it, ten, 20, 30 years? If on
:22:47. > :22:56.moves forward with a proposal for will be upset and realise they have
:22:57. > :22:57.been hoodwinked. If Turkey is fast-track entry, I think it is
:22:58. > :23:04.going to come around one that you might hear
:23:05. > :23:07.a lot more about. It voted unanimously
:23:08. > :23:09.for something called the Justice Against Sponsors
:23:10. > :23:14.of Terrorism Act. Normal practice is
:23:15. > :23:17.that countries can't be sued in the courts
:23:18. > :23:19.of other countries. Countries have sovereign immunity,
:23:20. > :23:22.which for example, stops you suing the US government over here,
:23:23. > :23:26.for contributing to climate change. The Senate Bill removes sovereign
:23:27. > :23:29.immunity in cases where nations have been involved in
:23:30. > :23:40.terrorism on US soil. The immediate significance
:23:41. > :23:42.is to allow the families of victims of 9/11 to sue the Saudi
:23:43. > :23:44.government in the US for any role Saudi officials might
:23:45. > :23:47.have played in the attacks. But the Bill opens up a can of worms
:23:48. > :23:51.in international law. President Obama doesn't like it,
:23:52. > :23:53.as it invites other countries It also threatens
:23:54. > :23:55.US-Saudi relations. It's not clear how
:23:56. > :23:57.the bill will fare. However, the 9/11 families have
:23:58. > :24:00.already chalked up one victory - President Obama has said
:24:01. > :24:02.he will release 28 redacted pages of the official commission
:24:03. > :24:05.into the World Trade Centre attacks that will open up questions
:24:06. > :24:11.about Saudi involvement. Joining me now from Washington DC
:24:12. > :24:17.is Terry Strada, the wife of 9/11 victim Tom Strada and now chair
:24:18. > :24:30.of 9/11 Families Survivors United Good evening to you. Thank you for
:24:31. > :24:36.joining us. Why do you want the right to sue the Saudi government?
:24:37. > :24:41.Because we want to hold them accountable. We want to hold the
:24:42. > :24:45.people that were behind, financing and aiding and abetting terrorists
:24:46. > :24:51.here, accountable in a court of law. We want justice for the murder of
:24:52. > :24:57.our loved ones. And in your suspicion, how high up do you think
:24:58. > :25:00.Saudi complicity might have gone? Well, we have evidence that the
:25:01. > :25:06.Saudis were definitely involved. Also within these 28 ages that you
:25:07. > :25:11.spoke of, it points the finger at Saudi Arabia. How far it goes
:25:12. > :25:21.exactly, I'm not sure, but that is a good reason to bring it into a court
:25:22. > :25:25.of law and let the investigation continue. They did not get to fully
:25:26. > :25:29.investigate the Saudi involvement. We need to know how far up the
:25:30. > :25:35.scores. And one of the people, John Leeman, has seen the pages and has
:25:36. > :25:39.broken ranks and talked about this and he said that he saw no evidence
:25:40. > :25:42.that the Saudi government as an institution was involved in the
:25:43. > :25:46.attacks. So I am wondering whether the Saudi government is the right
:25:47. > :25:51.target or whether it is the individuals, employees of the Saudi
:25:52. > :25:58.government, who should be the appropriate target of legal action.
:25:59. > :26:00.OK, so who was directing those employees of the Saudi Arabian
:26:01. > :26:04.government to carry out the attacks? I think we need to further the
:26:05. > :26:08.investigation. I think we need to look into it further than we have
:26:09. > :26:12.and I think we need to let the evidence that we have collected
:26:13. > :26:17.against the Saudis into a courtroom so that we can finally see, and let
:26:18. > :26:22.everyone see what we know, which is that the Saudis were involved in
:26:23. > :26:26.9/11. The Saudis will not recognise American courts' writes to tell them
:26:27. > :26:32.to pay fines or civil penalties or whatever. So what do you think will
:26:33. > :26:36.happen? If you go to a US court and win a victory against the Saudi
:26:37. > :26:40.government, what is the outcome? What are you looking for? We are
:26:41. > :26:44.looking for accountability and we are looking to hold them accountable
:26:45. > :26:47.for the role that they played in murdering 3000 people on American
:26:48. > :26:51.soil. It was the worst terrorist attack in America and it was a
:26:52. > :26:55.horrific attack. We want to hold them accountable because if we do,
:26:56. > :27:01.then they will not continue funding terrorism and we will not continue
:27:02. > :27:06.to seek the rise of Isis and what it is doing across the world. It is
:27:07. > :27:12.time to make the Saudis on up to the role they play in funding terrorist
:27:13. > :27:17.activities and aiding and abetting the hijackers while they were here
:27:18. > :27:19.in this country. If we do not hold them accountable, they will not
:27:20. > :27:23.stop. The biggest thing I am concerned about is our future and
:27:24. > :27:27.how do we prevent our future from terrorism. First of all, we have to
:27:28. > :27:31.hold people accountable for 9/11 and we need to know the full truth
:27:32. > :27:35.before we can never really protect ourselves going forward. What do you
:27:36. > :27:41.think of the legal argument? Clearly President Obama is not keen on this
:27:42. > :27:45.idea. The legal I demons around sovereign immunity, I don't know if
:27:46. > :27:48.you can hear me but sovereign immunity, that it sets a precedent
:27:49. > :27:56.that other nations will then want to sue the US? Have we lost to? I lost
:27:57. > :27:59.it just for a second. I am interested in the legal argument,
:28:00. > :28:03.whether there is weight in the President's legal argument that
:28:04. > :28:07.other nations will then start suing America? Iraqis could start suing
:28:08. > :28:18.Americans in Iraqi courts. Le Bataclan? Absently not. -- will that
:28:19. > :28:23.happen? Absolutely not. Within our sovereign immunity laws, there is an
:28:24. > :28:26.exception that you can hold people accountable for acts of terrorism.
:28:27. > :28:33.That has been misinterpreted by the court. We are trying to fix that
:28:34. > :28:40.issue with the Justice Against Sponsors of Terrorism Act, to hold
:28:41. > :28:45.people that aid and abet terrorism on American soil that happens to
:28:46. > :28:49.injure or hurt Americans. It does not change what other countries can
:28:50. > :28:54.and cannot do. They are entitled to have whatever laws they want,
:28:55. > :28:57.whether we have this bill or not. Think is much. People will be
:28:58. > :29:01.watching this great interest. Thank you very much.
:29:02. > :29:03.Sit back now, and prepare for a feast.
:29:04. > :29:05.And I'm not talking about lingiuni with spicy tomato sauce and mussels.
:29:06. > :29:09.No, a major new art exhibition has just opened its doors in London.
:29:10. > :29:11.It brings together two greats of the art world,
:29:12. > :29:23.And Kirsty Wark got to join them for a sneak preview.
:29:24. > :29:25.They were once the enfants terribles of art world,
:29:26. > :29:29.whose work had the power to cause shock and outrage as well
:29:30. > :29:33.Now, Jeff Koons and Damien Hirst are giants of modern art.
:29:34. > :29:40.Their work sells for millions, and they've come together at Damien
:29:41. > :29:42.Hirst's new gallery in Newport Street in London's Vauxhall,
:29:43. > :29:49.for a free exhibition of Jeff Koons' art.
:29:50. > :29:51.It's the first show of Jeff Koons work in this country
:29:52. > :29:58.since 2009, and it comes from Damien Hirst's own collection.
:29:59. > :30:12.They curated the exhibition together, but this is the moment
:30:13. > :30:16.In the first gallery are some of his early
:30:17. > :30:18.ready-made works, inspired by his hero, Marcel Duchamp.
:30:19. > :30:33.Hirst has been a huge fan of Koons' work since his student days.
:30:34. > :30:39.And now he's able to buy just about anything he wants.
:30:40. > :30:46.That was the piece I bought from Larry, the first piece.
:30:47. > :30:54.In 2013, Koons broke the record for the most expensive work
:30:55. > :31:06.monkey, fetched more than $58 million.
:31:07. > :31:10.It feels like you couldn't really do the show without it.
:31:11. > :31:12.And as if you've built this room for it!
:31:13. > :31:14.The surface is cast in stainless steel.
:31:15. > :31:18.Yeah, I've got no idea how you achieved that, because there's
:31:19. > :31:20.always a little ripple in the reflection,
:31:21. > :31:22.because the reflection is always so pure.
:31:23. > :31:27.One room is not for the faint-hearted.
:31:28. > :31:29.When did you get these pieces, Damien?
:31:30. > :31:34.While the huge bowl of eggs symbolises creation
:31:35. > :31:42.and birth, the other images are still controversial.
:31:43. > :31:45.starring Ilona Staller, better known by
:31:46. > :31:58.# Ah, love to love you, baby... #
:31:59. > :32:05.I fell in love with her for who she was, exactly the person,
:32:06. > :32:10.but it ended up it did not work out, so it was really about acceptance.
:32:11. > :32:14.# Ah, love to love you, baby... #
:32:15. > :32:17.When I first saw it I was like, he's lost it.
:32:18. > :32:24.I just thought, why would you want to go that far?
:32:25. > :32:27.And then afterwards, a couple of years later, I was like,
:32:28. > :32:45.For a while, they were my favourite pieces.
:32:46. > :32:54.Damien, how old will you. Can you remember when you first saw Jeff's
:32:55. > :32:59.work? I was a student, so the early 80s, maybe 85. I saw it in the
:33:00. > :33:11.visage Gallery in the New York Cammack now show, in 86 or 87.
:33:12. > :33:16.Tutors didn't like it,. And with the New York now show, they just said,
:33:17. > :33:21.that isn't art. I liked it because it was totally against what my
:33:22. > :33:26.tutors believed, and so simple and easy. Did you think you would end up
:33:27. > :33:32.being one of Jeff Koons' major collectors of art? Never. I looked
:33:33. > :33:36.at the work at the time, and I felt I could never possess anything like
:33:37. > :33:45.that. To be in a position where you can... I have Jeff 's Mac work in my
:33:46. > :33:50.house, a little piece by the TV, so I end up not looking at the TV and
:33:51. > :33:55.looking at the peace instead! When we use first aware of Damien's work?
:33:56. > :34:04.We were at an exhibition together in Germany. This would have been around
:34:05. > :34:10.1991. When you did the puppy. The giant puppy made out of flowers. We
:34:11. > :34:15.spent time together. Our families hung out. Damien McBride father, and
:34:16. > :34:22.my mum was there. I know Damien's mother. It was wonderful that we
:34:23. > :34:27.spent time together in this small German city, and that's where we
:34:28. > :34:32.befriended each other. When you started collecting Jeff's work, you
:34:33. > :34:36.were developing as an artist as Jeff was also developing as an artist. Is
:34:37. > :34:41.that one of the reasons why you wanted to collect? I'd been selling
:34:42. > :34:46.work and I had some money coming in, so I felt I could justify buying
:34:47. > :34:53.things that I'd always loved. One of the first pieces I bought was the
:34:54. > :34:58.hoover downstairs. I said to Larry, who has a gallery in New York, how
:34:59. > :35:05.much is that? I said, will it go up in value? He said, if you are buying
:35:06. > :35:10.it for that reason, don't buy it! Damien, you have the space, and you
:35:11. > :35:16.decided you would show Jeff's work. Why was it important to put Jeff's
:35:17. > :35:21.work together? I always thought I wanted to do an exhibition of Jeff's
:35:22. > :35:26.work. He's a difficult artist to collect because you want one of
:35:27. > :35:31.everything. It's quite a commitment. I always thought I would love to
:35:32. > :35:36.have enough to do a really great show. There's a few pieces I haven't
:35:37. > :35:44.got, one of the ones I always wanted was one of the wooden pieces, and a
:35:45. > :35:49.ceramic peaks -- surround it peace. I don't feel like anything is
:35:50. > :35:54.missing. It feels absolutely complete, from entering with the
:35:55. > :35:59.first inflatable flowers, to ending here with an elephant. Do you see
:36:00. > :36:07.your life flashing before you? I see a creative life. Working with
:36:08. > :36:09.objects, working with metaphor. What I really find important in this
:36:10. > :36:14.exhibition is the friendship with Damien. That is what is really
:36:15. > :36:20.important to me, that Damien would collect my work. This interaction is
:36:21. > :36:28.what I really walk away with. With Jeff's work, I think the word is
:36:29. > :36:33.celebration. I'm a bit more prone to darkness here and there, but I think
:36:34. > :36:38.art in itself, even if you are making something negative, it is a
:36:39. > :36:43.positive thought. It's difficult for someone to come in here and not
:36:44. > :36:50.absolutely love it. When you see kids in a Koons exhibition, they are
:36:51. > :36:55.just running round, loving it. Right now, we are sitting in front of
:36:56. > :37:03.Play-Doh were one of your biggest and heaviest works that Damien has.
:37:04. > :37:07.Why did you buy this piece of work? When I saw it, it seems to be the
:37:08. > :37:16.basis of all art. It seemed to say everything. I have a young son, and
:37:17. > :37:20.he made a mound of Play-Doh. I was looking elsewhere, and he said, dad.
:37:21. > :37:28.I turned, and he had the mound right here. And he said, there you go.
:37:29. > :37:32.That was the beginning of it. You spoke earlier about the fact that
:37:33. > :37:40.your work seems more onto mystic than Damien's. Damien, you said your
:37:41. > :37:48.work seems darker. But this is the ultimate dark object. It is all
:37:49. > :37:53.about semantics. I had Elephant on my desk, and I remember looking at
:37:54. > :37:58.it and thinking that it had the same quality as the diamond skull has, it
:37:59. > :38:07.looks shiny and bright, but it looks like you can pop it with a pin.
:38:08. > :38:12.That's... It's made of material, but it is lasting 6000 years and can't
:38:13. > :38:20.tame. The casting is a 6000 -year-old process. What do you see
:38:21. > :38:28.in each other? What I love about your work, or Jeff, is that he is a
:38:29. > :38:34.contemporary, he is alive today. You can admire him from afar, but it is
:38:35. > :38:39.inspirational to see that somebody living today is making art that is
:38:40. > :38:45.on a par with all those dead guys. When whenever I think about my own
:38:46. > :38:49.work, I know my own problems and weaknesses and doubts. You go
:38:50. > :38:54.through them all to end up with good work. When I look at your work, I
:38:55. > :38:59.can't see any of it. I have to remind myself that you are getting
:39:00. > :39:05.these beautifully finished objects. Tell him that you are doubtful
:39:06. > :39:10.sometimes! What I enjoy about Damien's work is its power. It is
:39:11. > :39:17.really visually... There is a strength there, which is always very
:39:18. > :39:24.confrontational in its power. The type of images, objects, things that
:39:25. > :39:31.are brought together, are extremely well thought out, construct it.
:39:32. > :39:34.There's a natural quality about it. Even though they are different
:39:35. > :39:42.things, they unify themselves so well. It's just an amazing intellect
:39:43. > :39:48.and thought. This idea of a discussion about power and control,
:39:49. > :39:51.and giving up control. I think that is extremely strong in
:39:52. > :39:54.and giving up control. I think that work. When I look at the butterflies
:39:55. > :40:00.that are painted into the surface, it is a profound discourse. You both
:40:01. > :40:10.have attracted a lot of attention because of the vast amount of money
:40:11. > :40:13.have attracted a lot of attention think, in a way, that sometimes
:40:14. > :40:16.obscures your art? I think that money can secure
:40:17. > :40:19.obscures your art? I think that in England. People think
:40:20. > :40:24.obscures your art? I think that artists need to be poor, or you
:40:25. > :40:29.cannot have a focus of money. When I made some money, it changed
:40:30. > :40:33.everything for me. I notice that businessmen started taking me
:40:34. > :40:39.seriously. The audience is changed. Money is a huge part of my life. I
:40:40. > :40:44.always thought it was is important as love or death. It's something you
:40:45. > :40:49.need to understand and respect. It shouldn't be
:40:50. > :40:51.need to understand and respect. It word. Once you have made the art and
:40:52. > :40:57.someone has bought it, word. Once you have made the art and
:40:58. > :41:00.it as a commodity rather than something they love? I was brought
:41:01. > :41:07.up to be self-reliant. I would sell drinks on golf courses, and maybe
:41:08. > :41:13.the ninth hole is a way make money, or I
:41:14. > :41:15.wrapping paper and chocolates. I enjoyed the
:41:16. > :41:24.wrapping paper and chocolates. I to be part of a dialogue with people
:41:25. > :41:32.like war hole or Salvador Dali, or Picasso or Leonardo. To be in a
:41:33. > :41:34.dialogue with the group. Here to be involved with Damien. It's an
:41:35. > :41:37.international discourse, and there international discourse, and there
:41:38. > :41:40.are hundreds of thousands of other people we are connected to, and we
:41:41. > :41:43.are having a dialogue people we are connected to, and we
:41:44. > :41:49.talking about art and how it's changed. It's changed my life and
:41:50. > :41:55.made my life more vast than it would have been if I didn't get involved
:41:56. > :42:00.in this dialogue. People are supportive to that ongoing dialogue,
:42:01. > :42:03.hopefully it's just a symbol that you are contributing in some way.
:42:04. > :42:10.Thank you both very much indeed for this interview. Thank you.
:42:11. > :42:12.That exhibition is at the Newport Street Gallery in London,
:42:13. > :42:16.and you can watch a longer version of that interview