:00:00. > :00:15.But who or what brought down EgyptAir Flight MS804?
:00:16. > :00:18.Tonight we'll assess the expert's theories on an aviation disaster.
:00:19. > :00:22.And we're in France, where a country is coming to terms
:00:23. > :00:35.A Harris, this could be an act of terrorism is at the forefront of
:00:36. > :00:39.people in the minds as the investigators pour over every detail
:00:40. > :00:45.in search of clues. -- Kear in Paris. Also tonight... I think it is
:00:46. > :00:47.important we emphasise that it is real, it is current, and we are
:00:48. > :00:53.dealing with it on a daily basis. A new report hammers home that
:00:54. > :00:55.antibiotics resistance will take us back to
:00:56. > :00:57.the dark ages of medicine. So what exactly are big pharma
:00:58. > :01:00.going to do about it? One of the most unlikely political
:01:01. > :01:10.figures of the 21st century gives The money what's being wasted,
:01:11. > :01:21.over and over, every year. And did writer and legendary atheist
:01:22. > :01:24.Christopher Hitchens contemplate A new book about his life has some
:01:25. > :01:43.controversial revelations. It's hard to remember a world
:01:44. > :01:47.where aviation disasters didn't automatically prompt speculation
:01:48. > :01:48.about terrorist acts. Tonight, search and rescue teams
:01:49. > :01:51.continue to collect wreckage from the EgyptAir flight MS804
:01:52. > :01:54.in the sea off the Greek And officials say
:01:55. > :02:00.that the Airbus A320 - en route from Paris to Cairo when it
:02:01. > :02:03.vanished from radar shortly after midnight -
:02:04. > :02:05.is more likely to have been brought down by terrorism
:02:06. > :02:09.than technical fault. The 10 crew and 56 passengers
:02:10. > :02:11.aboard, including one Briton named today as 40-year-old
:02:12. > :02:16.geologist Richard Osman, remain missing, while the Egyptian
:02:17. > :02:19.vice-President has said that what began as a rescue operation
:02:20. > :02:21.was turning into one Newsnight's Gabriel Gatehouse
:02:22. > :02:35.is in Paris. This is a city that over the past
:02:36. > :02:41.year and a bit has experienced and perhaps even come to expect act of
:02:42. > :02:47.violence carried out or inspired by the group that calls itself Islamic
:02:48. > :02:50.State. And so when an aeroplane that originated here drops inexplicably
:02:51. > :02:55.out of the sky in the early hours of this morning, thoughts inevitably
:02:56. > :02:59.turn in that direction and is now an investigation ongoing here at
:03:00. > :03:05.Charles de Gaulle airport into whether there was a security breach.
:03:06. > :03:08.I should emphasise that we do not know what caused MS804 to drop out
:03:09. > :03:12.of the sky. All we know is that it appears to have done so in the early
:03:13. > :03:17.hours of the morning. Francois Hollande confirmed that earlier
:03:18. > :03:21.today. And there is now a search and recovery operation ongoing jointly
:03:22. > :03:29.between Greek and Egyptian navies in the Aegean Sea, aided by the Royal
:03:30. > :03:32.Air Force. They are looking for debris. There has been some dispute
:03:33. > :03:36.and disagreement over whether any of that debris has been found already
:03:37. > :03:40.but when it is, it will provide vital clues to the investigators
:03:41. > :03:46.looking to find out what caused this crash. There were six of six people
:03:47. > :03:52.on board, 56 crew. 56 passengers, rather. Ten crew, of whom three were
:03:53. > :03:55.Egyptian security officers. Of the passengers, more than half were
:03:56. > :03:59.Egyptian with 15 French citizens and the citizens of a number of other
:04:00. > :04:05.nations. We have mentioned one British man, including people from
:04:06. > :04:10.Canada, Portugal, Kuwait and Iraq. Some of their relatives came here
:04:11. > :04:14.earlier today looking for answers. We do not need to see the familiar
:04:15. > :04:28.pictures of anguish at Sheldon Doyle airport. MS804, MH17, MH270. The
:04:29. > :04:34.flight numbers change but the scene is always the same, people drawn in
:04:35. > :04:39.disbelief to the place where those they suddenly last embarked on their
:04:40. > :04:46.final journey. Authorities are not ruling any theory in or out yet. But
:04:47. > :04:50.in Paris, especially here in Paris, the idea that this could be an act
:04:51. > :04:55.of terrorism is at the forefront of people's minds as the investigators
:04:56. > :05:05.pour over every detail in search of clues. EgyptAir flight 804 departed
:05:06. > :05:08.Paris at 9:11pm local time on Wednesday evening, and three and a
:05:09. > :05:11.quarter hours later, the pilot spoke to Greek Air Traffic Control.
:05:12. > :05:18.Everything seemed normal. 11 minutes after that, at 2:37pm Cairo time,
:05:19. > :05:22.after the plane had entered Egyptian airspace, it disappeared off the
:05:23. > :05:28.radar. -- 2:37am. Weather conditions were said to be ideal last night.
:05:29. > :05:31.The aircraft was relatively modern, an Airbus A3 20. So how did it crash
:05:32. > :05:40.without warning into the Mediterranean? TRANSLATION: The
:05:41. > :05:44.plane, 10-15 miles inside Egyptian airspace made a 90 degrees turn to
:05:45. > :05:47.the left at 30,000 feet and then a 360 degrees turn to the right,
:05:48. > :05:53.descending to 15,000 feet. Then, 360 degrees turn to the right,
:05:54. > :05:56.picture was lost. A state of emergency is still in force in Paris
:05:57. > :06:00.after the attacks on the 13th of November last year. Five days after
:06:01. > :06:07.that, security forces foiled what they said was a plot to attack shall
:06:08. > :06:10.the goal airport, where today's flight MH804 originated. And then
:06:11. > :06:15.after Islamic State managed to smuggle a bomb aboard a plane in
:06:16. > :06:19.Sharm el-Sheikh, bound for Russia last supper, the fear is that
:06:20. > :06:26.Islamic State could infiltrate European airports, too. -- last
:06:27. > :06:30.October. A lot of European security experts will be worried about planes
:06:31. > :06:40.landing from all over the Middle East. Imagine a bomb was put on a
:06:41. > :06:44.plane in Egypt, which is easier, you then prohibit EgyptAir from flying
:06:45. > :06:50.in Europe or you need to check every single airliner arriving from an
:06:51. > :06:55.Arab country. There are 85,000 people who have security clearance
:06:56. > :07:02.to work at Paris's airports. At the attacks here in November, 70 of them
:07:03. > :07:06.had clearance revoked by police on the grounds of national security.
:07:07. > :07:10.Today, a senior industry source told us that a significant number of
:07:11. > :07:16.those worked in airside catering. Eric is a lawyer who represents ten
:07:17. > :07:22.of those who had clearance revoked. All of them are accessing Muslims.
:07:23. > :07:25.He said his clients are the innocent victims of paranoid times. But he
:07:26. > :08:11.agrees that the airport has a problem.
:08:12. > :08:16.The bomb on board the theory is still only one among many and even
:08:17. > :08:21.if it was a bomb, it may not have come aboard here in Paris. It is
:08:22. > :08:25.possible that the key to this mystery lies somewhere further back
:08:26. > :08:30.in the story. Yesterday morning, the same aircraft had flown from Eritrea
:08:31. > :08:35.to Egypt. Then onto Tunisia, and back to Cairo. And from there, to
:08:36. > :08:40.Paris yesterday afternoon, before taking off on its final, fatal
:08:41. > :08:46.journey. Earlier today, relatives of the passengers still missing from
:08:47. > :08:49.flight MS804 made that same journey from Paris to Cairo. They will be
:08:50. > :08:56.joined by French investigators and technical experts, all of them in
:08:57. > :09:00.search of answers. Gabriel Gatehouse reporting.
:09:01. > :09:03.And joining me now is Mark Urban our Diplomatic Editor.
:09:04. > :09:09.It is the best part of 24 hours since the plane effectively
:09:10. > :09:15.disappeared. As the list of possible causes narrowed at all? I think it
:09:16. > :09:20.has somewhat, as facts have emerged. This could be a possible accident,
:09:21. > :09:25.still. The plane was at 37,000 feet and there is an aerodynamic
:09:26. > :09:29.phenomenon, the coffin corner, call it what you will, lift is limited at
:09:30. > :09:32.that altitude. The have been previous cases of planes getting
:09:33. > :09:38.into uncontrollable stalling. But no distress call, urges a first
:09:39. > :09:42.important factor. If you start to look at foul play, the shoulder
:09:43. > :09:47.launched anti-aircraft missiles, we know from the height and the
:09:48. > :09:51.location that we can rule that out. Accidental engagement by a warship
:09:52. > :09:55.or a fighter plane, once again that is pretty unlikely but such things
:09:56. > :10:00.have happened. There is nothing in the right area so we can rule that
:10:01. > :10:04.out. We end up with the possibility, did someone tried to storm the
:10:05. > :10:09.cockpit? Germanwings model, or something that was alleged to have
:10:10. > :10:12.happened on a 1999 EgyptAir flight. We know that there were three
:10:13. > :10:16.security guards on the planes are once again, one is that they would
:10:17. > :10:20.have put up a fight or something would have been radioed from the
:10:21. > :10:26.cockpit. So we end up with this possibility of a bomb. Was it put on
:10:27. > :10:30.somewhere like Cairo? Either way, whether it was there or it was put
:10:31. > :10:36.on in Paris, it has very serious invocations. We have a
:10:37. > :10:40.responsibility when a plane comes in that it leaves the airport safely.
:10:41. > :10:44.So it does not put Paris in the clear, even of something was put on
:10:45. > :10:50.somewhere else. Big applications if that turns out to be the case. And
:10:51. > :10:53.where does the investigation go? The search for debris has many purposes
:10:54. > :10:58.but once you start to bring in large amounts of debris, you can test them
:10:59. > :11:02.for explosive residue. That is a key step. People will be looking for the
:11:03. > :11:06.data recorders and they could be in 2000 metres of water, which will
:11:07. > :11:10.make a difficult recovery operation. Intelligence services in Egypt and
:11:11. > :11:14.France will be profiling the passengers, looking for possible
:11:15. > :11:18.connections, people being open to blackmail or other pressure, through
:11:19. > :11:21.family or other connections. All of these things will be done. Other
:11:22. > :11:26.intelligence services will be looking for chapter, possibly on the
:11:27. > :11:29.basis of that the Israelis and Russians and one or two others seem
:11:30. > :11:33.to have been briefing this afternoon that they have concluded it was a
:11:34. > :11:35.terrorist attack. But it is really early to say that with definitive
:11:36. > :11:38.certainty. Many thanks. Two daughters off school,
:11:39. > :11:40.parents supposed to be working, childcare a nightmare and a GP
:11:41. > :11:43.refusing to prescribe the antibiotics which would see
:11:44. > :11:52.off their throat infections antibiotic medicines -
:11:53. > :11:57.and somehow fund the extremely 10 million humans a year could be
:11:58. > :12:04.dying needlessly by 2050. This is the stark warning
:12:05. > :12:08.at the heart of a Government-backed report into anti-microbial
:12:09. > :12:14.resistance, led by the economist Lord Jim O'Neill
:12:15. > :12:15.and published today. Anjana Ahuja has been examining
:12:16. > :12:31.the implications of When it comes to drug resistant
:12:32. > :12:37.infections, the future does not look just a grim, but apocalyptic.
:12:38. > :12:42.Superbugs killing 10 million people each year by 2050, more than cancer.
:12:43. > :12:46.Routine surgery like hip replacements grinding to a halt,
:12:47. > :12:52.just when an ageing population needs them. The life-saving drug which has
:12:53. > :12:57.revolutionised medical science. A crisis in antibiotics threatened to
:12:58. > :13:01.end a golden year of medicine which started with Alexander Fleming's
:13:02. > :13:06.discovery of penicillin in the 1920s and led to the belief that every
:13:07. > :13:07.infection was durable. But with antimicrobial resistance on the rise
:13:08. > :13:09.of over the antimicrobial resistance on the rise
:13:10. > :13:15.beginning to look a lot antimicrobial resistance on the rise
:13:16. > :13:19.past. We are talking about the issues in the future but we are
:13:20. > :13:23.dealing with this problem now, all the time. We are having to use an
:13:24. > :13:27.injection and a second antibiotic together because we do not want to
:13:28. > :13:34.take the risk of treatment failing. Antimicrobial resistance, or AMR
:13:35. > :13:40.refers to an treatable Antimicrobial resistance, or AMR
:13:41. > :13:41.forecast to cost the global economy $100 trillion, 100,000 billion
:13:42. > :13:47.dollars, in decades to come. $100 trillion, 100,000 billion
:13:48. > :13:52.years ago, David Cameron asked the former Goldman Sachs
:13:53. > :13:55.years ago, David Cameron asked the AMR could be tackled.
:13:56. > :13:58.years ago, David Cameron asked the backed by the welcome
:13:59. > :14:02.years ago, David Cameron asked the published today. It urges doctors
:14:03. > :14:07.not to over prescribe, suggests a $2 billion global fund to pay for
:14:08. > :14:08.vaccines and new antibiotics, plus a ban on some antibiotics used in
:14:09. > :14:17.farming. We hear the global figures, we think
:14:18. > :14:23.it is something happening in other countries. We need to understand
:14:24. > :14:30.this is happening in our NHS. We have huge problems with infections,
:14:31. > :14:36.ward closures, issues to halt the spread of organisms. I'm at one of
:14:37. > :14:40.the top diseases labs at Imperial College London, which has made
:14:41. > :14:44.tackling resistance one of its main research projects. One of the things
:14:45. > :14:47.its researchers are doing is developing new classes of
:14:48. > :14:51.antibiotics, something that the world desperately needs. That is
:14:52. > :14:55.picked up in the report. But a careful reading of the report shows
:14:56. > :14:59.a shift in emphasis, as well as the need to supply new antibiotics. The
:15:00. > :15:05.world also needs to radically rethink how it uses its old ones.
:15:06. > :15:10.Bugs such as MRSA and see difficile may dominate headlines, but drug
:15:11. > :15:14.resistance is also causing huge problems in the field of sexually
:15:15. > :15:20.transmitted infections. Because it can take days to get a definitive
:15:21. > :15:23.lab result, doctors will sometimes prescribed powerful antibiotics just
:15:24. > :15:27.in case. But there might be another way. Here, at St George 's Hospital
:15:28. > :15:32.in London, in a project funded by the medical research Council, a new
:15:33. > :15:36.test can detect infections in 30 minutes. That means patients can be
:15:37. > :15:45.treated swiftly and only with the medicine that they really need. This
:15:46. > :15:49.machine can reveal the presence of an STI in 30 minutes. We can press
:15:50. > :15:56.this button and review the result. We can see that this patient has not
:15:57. > :15:59.got chlamydia detected. The scenario of somebody coming in right now,
:16:00. > :16:04.being diagnosed with gonorrhoea, right now they would be given a
:16:05. > :16:07.really big injection, a second antibiotics to treat the gonorrhoea.
:16:08. > :16:11.Just say that we were able to identify that the patient has a
:16:12. > :16:16.strain of gonorrhoea which is very, very possible was susceptible to an
:16:17. > :16:19.old antibiotic, with this diagnostic test, we would be able to identify
:16:20. > :16:25.that straightaway and give that antibiotic. Firstly, we are not
:16:26. > :16:29.guessing which antibiotic to use, we know which one to use. Secondly, we
:16:30. > :16:34.don't have to use the injection, we don't have to use the front line
:16:35. > :16:40.antibiotics that we might need to use later on. It is sparing new
:16:41. > :16:45.antibiotics, reusing antibiotics and treating with confidence. That's
:16:46. > :16:46.important in terms of what we call antibiotic stewardship, using them
:16:47. > :16:54.responsibly. At some point, our luck will run out
:16:55. > :16:57.and we will need new antibiotics. The trouble is, drug companies don't
:16:58. > :17:01.think they are profitable to make, because they need to be prescribed
:17:02. > :17:06.in the smallest amount is possible to the fewest people possible. There
:17:07. > :17:12.are simply richer pickings to be had elsewhere. So there are 800 cancer
:17:13. > :17:20.drugs in the pipeline, compared to just 30 or 40 antibiotics under
:17:21. > :17:22.development today. Of those 30 to 40, only three are of a class that
:17:23. > :17:26.is most desperately needed. Joining me now is Dr Virginia Ahuja,
:17:27. > :17:28.an executive director at the Association of
:17:29. > :17:30.the British Pharmaceutical Industry, which represents the
:17:31. > :17:41.UK's pharma industry. Before you put your professional hat
:17:42. > :17:44.on, how concerned are you, personally? The best thing we have
:17:45. > :17:48.had today with the report is that we have brought this to the attention
:17:49. > :17:52.of everyone that is watching this programme, reading the newspaper
:17:53. > :17:56.today, has been listening to the news. That has been so important to
:17:57. > :17:59.do. The conversations you were hearing on your piece, they are not
:18:00. > :18:06.new. We have been talking about these issues. The time. The research
:18:07. > :18:10.kick... Two years ago, it proceeded a lot of the work that we were
:18:11. > :18:20.talking about today, it has gone on for years. We have had these
:18:21. > :18:27.conversations for years. There is no hyperbole? There is a real risk of
:18:28. > :18:31.the scenario that Jim paints in the report. I think the risk is there,
:18:32. > :18:35.the risk is clear why we all need to be working together on it. You say
:18:36. > :18:39.we need to be working together, it is only really your industry that
:18:40. > :18:48.can address the most urgent part? Much of the report gets to the real
:18:49. > :18:51.nub of it. There is no point in creating the latest and greatest
:18:52. > :18:54.antibiotic if we are not making the most of our current antibiotics.
:18:55. > :18:59.What can we do to prevent infection from going out of control in a
:19:00. > :19:03.setting? We have all heard about hospital cleaning, but it goes
:19:04. > :19:07.beyond that, understanding what you, as a father, as a parent, can think
:19:08. > :19:12.about when you are approaching the use of an antibiotic. I appreciate
:19:13. > :19:16.that, but it is fair to observe the discovery, the research and
:19:17. > :19:20.development leads to the discovery of new medicines, and we are
:19:21. > :19:23.becoming increasingly aware they are essential. I don't think it is
:19:24. > :19:32.ignorant to suggest the pharmaceutical industry is the only
:19:33. > :19:36.place where those can be an -- unearthed. This is something that
:19:37. > :19:41.the industry has been pressing for a while. You mentioned the number of
:19:42. > :19:47.drugs being developed. 30 or 40, against 800 for cancer? But it is
:19:48. > :19:58.something that is worth comment 2014, $5 billion of investment in
:19:59. > :20:01.R It is something we have done over the years, these antibiotics
:20:02. > :20:04.have come from previous research. Let me draw attention to the fact
:20:05. > :20:09.that we had a declaration by the industry in January of over 100
:20:10. > :20:15.companies, 13 associations, committed to advancing the R and
:20:16. > :20:20.addressing the resistance issue. Let's look at the proposals put
:20:21. > :20:23.forward by Jim O'Neill, this pay or play scheme, $1 million in place for
:20:24. > :20:28.a company that brings a new drug to market. It is quite attractive, and
:20:29. > :20:32.it seems, even by the standards of the pharmaceutical industry, which I
:20:33. > :20:36.think is the most profitable on the planet, a decent payday? R
:20:37. > :20:39.incentives are important, something we have been talking about was time.
:20:40. > :20:45.But let's think about how we get those delivered on the ground. If we
:20:46. > :20:49.have a new antibiotics, ultimately, it is about making sure in every
:20:50. > :20:53.country there is an opportunity to think about how to make sure the
:20:54. > :20:56.antibiotic is going to be made available in practice. I just want
:20:57. > :20:58.to focus on some conclusive answers that we might get to any course
:20:59. > :21:03.to focus on some conclusive answers our brief time together. Does the
:21:04. > :21:06.industry support the proposal? The industry supports
:21:07. > :21:06.industry support the proposal? The incentives for getting medicines
:21:07. > :21:10.through. Is this the incentives for getting medicines
:21:11. > :21:13.incentive? We could have other incentives for getting medicines
:21:14. > :21:15.options for investing in R In R,
:21:16. > :21:18.options for investing in R In approach would be better.
:21:19. > :21:20.options for investing in R In no? You not blindingly with
:21:21. > :21:25.options for investing in R In answering the question. The question
:21:26. > :21:31.is talking about two things. There is investment, how we put money into
:21:32. > :21:35.R, and we have better ways of... You don't like the pay or play
:21:36. > :21:38.proposal? There is a collaborative approach... Has Jim O'Neill made a
:21:39. > :21:42.mistake approach... Has Jim O'Neill made a
:21:43. > :21:47.It's good putting all of these ideas forward, I think the ideas need to
:21:48. > :21:49.be discussed. We haven't had those conversations, we haven't gone
:21:50. > :21:52.be discussed. We haven't had those through the costs of the different
:21:53. > :21:56.approaches. What we have had a lot of experience with, in developing
:21:57. > :21:57.world, in neglected diseases, of experience with, in developing
:21:58. > :22:09.have a public partnership of experience with, in developing
:22:10. > :22:13.R to fruition. Nasri Mac is research and development, and
:22:14. > :22:15.R to fruition. Nasri Mac is other acronym is about
:22:16. > :22:16.R to fruition. Nasri Mac is response ability, is there any any
:22:17. > :22:20.R to fruition. Nasri Mac is work we have been doing in R has
:22:21. > :22:24.been growing. work we have been doing in R has
:22:25. > :22:28.investment in a number of areas. I don't think the industry is falling
:22:29. > :22:31.down on understanding what the role is to supply the best possible
:22:32. > :22:37.medicines for patient's health and benefits. It is what we need to
:22:38. > :22:41.done with respect to this report that has come out. What
:22:42. > :22:45.done with respect to this report is is how we collectively address a
:22:46. > :22:47.challenge that faces every us. I understand the point
:22:48. > :22:49.challenge that faces every us. I about collective responsibility, I'm
:22:50. > :22:54.interested in corporate responsibility... Excuse me, one
:22:55. > :23:01.moment, profit margins routinely breached the 40% mark. Pfizer made
:23:02. > :23:05.$22 billion in 2014. It seems, despite a degree of obfuscation, it
:23:06. > :23:09.seems unless there is major money to be made, the pharmaceutical industry
:23:10. > :23:12.seems unless there is major money to will watch the planets ever? That
:23:13. > :23:18.were true, you would not have 34 in the pipeline, you would not have 5
:23:19. > :23:20.billion spent last year. In an industry worth 400
:23:21. > :23:24.billion spent last year. In an investments are not
:23:25. > :23:25.billion spent last year. In an is part of the R pipeline. Compare
:23:26. > :23:32.it to the private... Let's act is part of the R pipeline. Compare
:23:33. > :23:38.the government is doing... They are not here for me to ask, you are. I
:23:39. > :23:42.will put that into perspective. The central proposal, the pay or play
:23:43. > :23:48.scheme to reward... I would disagree that it is the central proposal...
:23:49. > :23:51.Let's not get into semantics, a proposal? I think we could talk
:23:52. > :23:56.about it, but I think other options would be much more effective,
:23:57. > :24:01.getting the right medicines, in a voluntary collaboration. It means
:24:02. > :24:02.you have a long-term to deliver on this enormous challenge that we
:24:03. > :24:06.face. Thank you. Amid all the Referendum-related talk
:24:07. > :24:08.of enhancing border control and restricting the free movement
:24:09. > :24:11.of people, you could be forgiven for forgetting that in the event
:24:12. > :24:14.of an exit vote on June the 23rd the United Kingdom would
:24:15. > :24:16.still have a land border Quite what that border
:24:17. > :24:22.between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic would look
:24:23. > :24:26.like is, at best, unclear. Newsnight's Secunder Kermani has
:24:27. > :24:28.been considering what post-Leave life might look like
:24:29. > :24:48.on either side of it. This small river splits the village
:24:49. > :24:51.of PepsiCo. Since partition, it has divided the Republic of Ireland from
:24:52. > :24:55.Northern Ireland. The border is basically invisible now. During the
:24:56. > :25:02.troubles, checkpoints transformed life for residents on both sides.
:25:03. > :25:08.There would be a few farmers that have grown on both sides of the
:25:09. > :25:12.border. Stephen's family lives at the border, the British army blew up
:25:13. > :25:16.the bridge at the edge. It only really a mile in this direction, you
:25:17. > :25:21.are having to do a journey of ten or 12 miles, which took you out around
:25:22. > :25:27.over the bow Island in front of us, and left you doing a journey of 35
:25:28. > :25:30.or 40 minutes to get to a local shop that was a mile away. Do you worry
:25:31. > :25:35.that something like that might come back if there is a Brexit, Britain
:25:36. > :25:38.leaves the EU? I don't think we will ever see something as severe as
:25:39. > :25:45.that, certainly there is a worry there will be customs and things
:25:46. > :25:48.like that in place. What is going to happen, nobody can tell us. The
:25:49. > :25:53.border is no longer look like this. But what will they look like in the
:25:54. > :25:57.future? This side of the bridge is in the Republic of Ireland and
:25:58. > :26:00.Britain is just a few steps away. Once you are here in Northern
:26:01. > :26:08.Ireland, if you want to travel further into the mainland UK, there
:26:09. > :26:12.are no passport controls. The Leave campaign wants to take control of
:26:13. > :26:17.Britain's borders with the EU, so are we going to see a hard border
:26:18. > :26:19.that splits community is once again? Some senior campaign managers have
:26:20. > :26:24.said there should be, but the official line is that nothing will
:26:25. > :26:29.change. The Common travel area between the Republic of Ireland and
:26:30. > :26:33.the UK, it is in law, it is protected, there will be no passport
:26:34. > :26:37.controls. But then you are not taking control of Britain's borders,
:26:38. > :26:42.you can't stop anybody from big EU slipping through a porous border and
:26:43. > :26:45.coming to Britain? You do, there is the power, there is the controls
:26:46. > :26:51.that they can access in the Republic of Ireland. Anybody from the EU can
:26:52. > :26:54.travel into the Republic of Ireland. But we do have spot checks on both
:26:55. > :26:59.sides of the border. Will there be more checks, checking on people
:27:00. > :27:04.coming from Northern Ireland to mainland UK? That would anger, I
:27:05. > :27:08.imagine, people. We believe it is perfectly operational and will be
:27:09. > :27:14.sustainable. Border towns thrive on the custom from both countries.
:27:15. > :27:19.Shops here accept both pounds and euros. But despite what the Leave
:27:20. > :27:26.campaign say, there is anxiety from many who pass through here on daily
:27:27. > :27:30.commutes between Dublin and Belfast. Many of us feel Irish and Northern
:27:31. > :27:33.Irish. I would hate that to be something that would be more
:27:34. > :27:40.difficult, with the border. Even making the trip to Belfast, they
:27:41. > :27:44.brought back Mars bars, Spangles, contraceptives. Do you think that if
:27:45. > :27:50.Britain leaves the EU, we might go back to seeing customs checks? I
:27:51. > :27:55.don't think they will be bringing contraception any more, that's gone!
:27:56. > :28:01.I think you could get custom checks, yes. The last border checks were
:28:02. > :28:07.brought down years ago. Anything vaguely resembling this would be
:28:08. > :28:10.hugely controversial. We were told that British officials are concerned
:28:11. > :28:15.that the border is already a back door to the UK. Security sources I
:28:16. > :28:19.have spoken to say it has been targeted by terrorism suspects and
:28:20. > :28:24.for illegal immigration. There had been talks predating the referendum
:28:25. > :28:28.between Britain and Dublin on Visa harmonisation, on improving checks
:28:29. > :28:32.on those arriving into the Republic of Ireland. I am told those talks
:28:33. > :28:38.have a new sense of urgency because of the possibility of a Brexit. For
:28:39. > :28:42.many living and working by the border, like here in Warrenpoint
:28:43. > :28:46.harbour, the primary concern is the economic impact of leaving the EU.
:28:47. > :28:52.Even some Leave campaigners say Northern Ireland is a net recipient
:28:53. > :28:57.of EU funding by ?58 million, much of it agricultural subsidies, though
:28:58. > :29:01.they still argue the UK would be better off out overall. 37% of
:29:02. > :29:08.Northern Irish exports go to the Republic of Ireland. 22% go to the
:29:09. > :29:13.rest of the EU. Ireland will also be affected. 17.5% of their exports go
:29:14. > :29:18.to the UK. 40% of the trade of the sport, both import and export, comes
:29:19. > :29:24.from all goes to the Republic of Ireland. But, to be quite honest, if
:29:25. > :29:27.there were difficulties with border controls and paperweight, customs, I
:29:28. > :29:31.am quite sure that trade would disappear from here and go to ports
:29:32. > :29:38.in the Republic, where there would not be those controls. In County
:29:39. > :29:44.Tyrone, another border region, many farmers receive payments from the EU
:29:45. > :29:54.Qatar Common agricultural policy. Roger and Elaine run a more unusual
:29:55. > :29:59.farm, breeding alpacas. You got very confused cows and alpacas, having
:30:00. > :30:03.not seen cows, they didn't know what the animals were. Last year, they
:30:04. > :30:08.make most sales south of the border. They are still yet to make up their
:30:09. > :30:12.mind which way to vote. If we were out of the EU, it might give us the
:30:13. > :30:16.opportunity, as part of the UK, to have a greater say in being able to
:30:17. > :30:22.say, we are unique here, things need to be put in place that need to
:30:23. > :30:28.facilitate as, being able to access things, just as much as those in
:30:29. > :30:32.inland UK. According to the polls, Northern Irish voters are the most
:30:33. > :30:37.strongly pro-remain in the country. But according to one poll, when you
:30:38. > :30:42.break the vote down, nationalist voters are almost all EU, but a
:30:43. > :30:45.majority of unionists are pro-leave. A lot of work has been done
:30:46. > :30:50.reconciling communities in Northern Ireland, much of it in the border
:30:51. > :30:54.regions has been funded by the EU, like this multi-million pounds
:30:55. > :31:01.complex which brings different groups together. But there are fears
:31:02. > :31:05.leaving the EU could destabilise the region's delicate balance. We are 30
:31:06. > :31:10.years out of conflict, the country has come on leaps and bounds. There
:31:11. > :31:11.is a generation that knows nothing about the troubles except what they
:31:12. > :31:15.read about the troubles except what they
:31:16. > :31:19.parents have told them. They don't understand it. Let's look
:31:20. > :31:22.parents have told them. They don't generations of people. Why burden
:31:23. > :31:25.them with a border again? We have been through all of this. We don't
:31:26. > :31:31.want it, we've had enough borders, we don't want any more. This is the
:31:32. > :31:36.UK's only land border with the rest of the EU. For many in Westminster,
:31:37. > :31:39.whether to leave or remain is an abstract question, few will be as
:31:40. > :31:41.deeply affected us those living here.
:31:42. > :31:43.He was the sceptic's sceptic, prominent even among
:31:44. > :31:46.the world's most passionate and persuasive atheists.
:31:47. > :31:51.But a new book published in America posits the possibility
:31:52. > :31:53.that the author and polemicist Christopher Hitchens not only
:31:54. > :31:57.contemplated Christianity as his 2011 death from cancer
:31:58. > :32:00.of the oesophagus approached but also flirted with faith itself.
:32:01. > :32:03.However, friends and confidantes of Hitchens, including his widow,
:32:04. > :32:06.are deeply unhappy at even the slightest aspersion being cast
:32:07. > :32:19.In a moment, we'll speak to one of those friends but I'm joined now
:32:20. > :32:23.The Faith of Christopher Hitchens: The Restless Soul of
:32:24. > :32:33.Even the most cursory reading of Christopher Hitchens' work
:32:34. > :32:37.establishes a man who did not believe he had a soul. How could it
:32:38. > :32:41.possibly have been restless? The title makes it very clear that what
:32:42. > :32:46.I am getting at with this is not that he had faith in God but rather
:32:47. > :32:50.that, as the title makes clear, I think the man was an atheist but I
:32:51. > :32:59.am asking the question, what was his faith in? The tumblers do not line
:33:00. > :33:03.up with the atheist key, or the God key, but he was defined by a lot
:33:04. > :33:07.more than his atheism. Of course it was, and I will ask the same
:33:08. > :33:12.question again, how could a man who did not believe he had a soul have
:33:13. > :33:16.had a restless soul? In a debate with Christopher, he spoke of a soul
:33:17. > :33:21.and I made sure to point this out. What did he say? He said that
:33:22. > :33:26.Christianity continued to inflict crimes against the body and the
:33:27. > :33:30.soul. And I pointed out that from an atheist point of view, there is no
:33:31. > :33:34.soul. But Christians would believe that there was. I do not think
:33:35. > :33:39.trying to unpick the workings of Christopher Hitchens' brains is
:33:40. > :33:42.within the remit of either of us. It is a deliberately provocative title,
:33:43. > :33:46.you are attempting to take a man famous throughout the world for his
:33:47. > :33:49.robust approach to atheism and his championing of it, and you are
:33:50. > :33:55.possibly attempting to flog a few books off the back of it. That is
:33:56. > :33:58.simply not true, James. And it is clear from your question that you
:33:59. > :34:02.have not read the book. The book is a story about friendship, a story
:34:03. > :34:07.about friendship between two man of very different world views. Here I
:34:08. > :34:11.am, an evangelical Christian and Christopher Hitchens, a Molotov
:34:12. > :34:16.cocktail tossing atheist. Onstage, the two of us could enjoy a warm
:34:17. > :34:22.friendship that culminated in two Lengthy road trips, one from his
:34:23. > :34:24.home in DC to mine, and the other through Yellowstone National Park,
:34:25. > :34:30.where we studied the gospel together. You read a book together.
:34:31. > :34:34.His friends say that you hardly knew him. Well, his friends clearly do
:34:35. > :34:41.not know the truth of it. I don't know how many friends Christopher
:34:42. > :34:46.took 13 hour car trips with, but he did two Lengthy road trips with me
:34:47. > :34:49.and spoke very warmly publicly of our friendship. This is an film,
:34:50. > :34:56.James. I am not inventing anything here. You bring his atheism into
:34:57. > :34:59.question, you posit the notion of contemplating Christianity, and your
:35:00. > :35:04.evidence is the number of hours you spend together in a car? No, that is
:35:05. > :35:09.not the evidence. The evidence is a great deal more than that. In fact,
:35:10. > :35:13.I think you are deliberately mischaracterising the book. What I
:35:14. > :35:16.say in the book is that Christopher was contemplating making a number
:35:17. > :35:21.of, if I could put it this way, edits to his life late in his life.
:35:22. > :35:25.Exactly what he would convert to was not clear. He spoke of a Protestant
:35:26. > :35:31.atheism, which was something he found attractive. Would he have
:35:32. > :35:35.converted to DSM? He was deeply affected by Judaism, and the
:35:36. > :35:41.discovery late in life that he was Jewish on his mother side. It is not
:35:42. > :35:45.clear exactly what kind of change you would have made but after 2001,
:35:46. > :35:53.he made a very serious defection from the left politically. And I am
:35:54. > :35:57.simply suggesting that this was a man of a great deal more complexity
:35:58. > :36:01.than you would suggest. Of course. How long before his death did you
:36:02. > :36:09.last see? I saw him 40 months before his death and that is very
:36:10. > :36:12.important. -- 14 months. Because the suggestion I am claiming a deathbed
:36:13. > :36:16.conversion is absurd. First of all, the book is not about that and
:36:17. > :36:20.secondly, I was not there. And nobody suggested it was. It was
:36:21. > :36:25.merely the tone of your intimacy I was seeking to establish. We are
:36:26. > :36:29.joined by Lawrence Krauss, an atheist and close friend of
:36:30. > :36:38.Christopher Hitchens. He refused to discuss directly with Larry Thompson
:36:39. > :36:43.the contents of this book. -- Larry Taunton. To begin with I want to ask
:36:44. > :36:49.you why your feelings run so deeply on this and have you been mollified
:36:50. > :36:52.by what you have heard? This is a man who is clearly trying to use
:36:53. > :36:57.Christopher Hitchens to take a relatively unknown individual and
:36:58. > :37:02.make money of Christopher's name. I will not participate with that, by
:37:03. > :37:08.having a conversation with something I am not willing to other
:37:09. > :37:12.conversation with. Is it possible that he was auditing some of his
:37:13. > :37:15.belief in the last years of his life? Firstly, let's talk about
:37:16. > :37:18.friendship because I had a conversation with Christopher
:37:19. > :37:22.Hitchens' would all about this. She confirmed that Christopher was paid
:37:23. > :37:27.to spend time with this man. I have to say that none of his friends paid
:37:28. > :37:31.Christopher to spend time with him. That is the difference between a
:37:32. > :37:35.real friend and a paid associate. Christopher was paid to debate with
:37:36. > :37:38.this gentleman. The other thing is that Christopher was incredibly, in
:37:39. > :37:43.spite of the fact that he was seen as a bulldog on stage, in private he
:37:44. > :37:47.was incredibly civil with individuals and could have
:37:48. > :37:50.wonderful, polite conversations with people he desperately disagreed
:37:51. > :38:00.with. I know Justice Scully are used to be a visitor in his house. --
:38:01. > :38:03.Justice Scolia. The fact that he is confusing friendship with civility
:38:04. > :38:08.means he did not know this man at all. What did his widow make of the
:38:09. > :38:12.book? She is disgusted by it and believes it was somebody taking the
:38:13. > :38:16.opportunity to write his coat-tails. So many things are ridiculous about
:38:17. > :38:20.the notion. First of all, atheism is not a belief system. It is a
:38:21. > :38:24.recognition that you do not accept the existence of God without
:38:25. > :38:27.evidence. As he would've said, extraordinary claims require
:38:28. > :38:35.extraordinary evidence and the claim that after 13.8 billion years, God
:38:36. > :38:39.would suddenly weighed in on this planet -- weight on this planet for
:38:40. > :38:47.hominis to develop and then decided to reveal himself to illiterate iron
:38:48. > :38:50.age peasants after millions of years, is so ridiculous that it
:38:51. > :38:53.would require extraordinary evidence. Moreover, if you were
:38:54. > :38:58.converting, what would you convert to? There were 1000 religions, and
:38:59. > :39:02.certainly Christianity was not one of Christopher's favourites. He said
:39:03. > :39:06.the new Testament was more evil than the old and in particular, as
:39:07. > :39:15.Richard Dawkins and I have pointed out, no one talks more about how the
:39:16. > :39:20.G7. -- hell then Jesus. He referred to God as a Saddam Hussein in the
:39:21. > :39:22.sky. The notion that they would be sympathetic to that kind of
:39:23. > :39:30.silliness is just ridiculous. Now, you may have been
:39:31. > :39:32.following our My Decision mini-series in the run up to the EU
:39:33. > :39:35.referendum - offering a little space to some well-known faces
:39:36. > :39:38.who are not going to see out Tonight, the thoughts of someone
:39:39. > :39:42.Gordon Brown described as a 'bigoted woman',
:39:43. > :39:58.Gillian Duffy. Well, I think the European Union has
:39:59. > :40:09.just got far too large for itself. The money what's being wasted,
:40:10. > :40:11.over and over, every year, Well, it's not billions,
:40:12. > :40:17.it's probably trillions now. We're giving all the time,
:40:18. > :40:20.we always put our money in, but we never seem to get
:40:21. > :40:26.anything back to help us. "I tried to read it and I thought
:40:27. > :40:38.I can't be reading this." She said, I put a stamp on it
:40:39. > :40:44.and just put, "David Cameron,
:40:45. > :40:45.10 Downing Street." And I read in the paper that other
:40:46. > :40:55.people had sent it back. Why was he allowed to spend
:40:56. > :40:57.?9 million on a leaflet? I don't think it will
:40:58. > :41:04.change our life at all. He said the rich will still be rich,
:41:05. > :41:10.whether we come out or we stay in. So that means we're going to still
:41:11. > :41:13.be the same anyhow, aren't we? But I'm frightened of losing
:41:14. > :41:21.our identity as well. That's what I'm frightened
:41:22. > :41:27.of, an' all. But we'll never get England
:41:28. > :41:30.back to how it was. But I love being English,
:41:31. > :41:42.and I don't want to be a European. And that is all we have time for.
:41:43. > :41:53.Emily is in the chair tomorrow. Good night.
:41:54. > :41:57.Good evening. Thursday brought some sunshine but many places had cloud
:41:58. > :41:59.and outbreaks of rain.