:00:00. > :00:00.The referendum Catch 22 - campaign hard to appeal to some
:00:07. > :00:08.voters and you lose your appeal to others.
:00:09. > :00:17.And it's causing tensions in the Leave campaign.
:00:18. > :00:24.Vote leave decided they were going to concentrate on immigration on a
:00:25. > :00:25.very negative basis and frighten people away on the issue of
:00:26. > :00:31.Legal highs may still get you high, but from midnight
:00:32. > :00:37.Will the new blanket ban on psychoactive substances work?
:00:38. > :00:39.Also with us, the new chairman of Heathrow.
:00:40. > :00:42.He'll explain why his airport should get an extra runway.
:00:43. > :00:45.And Lord Sugar, far from sweet when it comes to Donald Trump.
:00:46. > :00:50.If I was an American, I would be very, very worried.
:00:51. > :01:00.Fortunately I'm an Englishman and I love my country,
:01:01. > :01:05.It's not been the best week for the Leave campaign.
:01:06. > :01:08.The bookies have cut the chance of a Leave win to 20%
:01:09. > :01:12.It's seemed hard for Leave to break the endless trail of establishment
:01:13. > :01:15.authorities warning us to stay in the EU to avoid armageddon.
:01:16. > :01:18.Well, as the going gets tough, the internal arguments get going,
:01:19. > :01:21.and you might have heard here last night that there is to be a change
:01:22. > :01:24.of tack in the Leave campaign, with more emphasis to be
:01:25. > :01:27.placed on the immigration issue than hitherto.
:01:28. > :01:30.But not everybody is happy with that idea.
:01:31. > :01:33.The issue will be in sharp focus tomorrow when the latest quarterly
:01:34. > :01:42.Our political editor, Nick Watt is with me.
:01:43. > :01:49.There has been some internal discussion on this. How do the
:01:50. > :01:54.insiders feel the Leave Campaign is going? It is the weekly meeting
:01:55. > :01:58.tomorrow and there may be the odd pained face. You are talking about
:01:59. > :02:02.the unease we picked up last night about the focus on immigration and
:02:03. > :02:06.those tensions bubbled to the service again today when the
:02:07. > :02:12.Institute for Fiscal Studies raised questions about the impact of Brexit
:02:13. > :02:16.on the UK economy and vote leave started saying we should not take
:02:17. > :02:22.this organisation seriously, they are bankrolled by the EU. There was
:02:23. > :02:25.a lot of unease in the campaign about that message. Office for
:02:26. > :02:29.National Statistics figures out tomorrow should be a big day for the
:02:30. > :02:35.Leave Campaign, but I have been speaking to a British-born Pakistani
:02:36. > :02:39.MP who signed up for vote leave last year and he wanted to make a
:02:40. > :02:42.positive case for immigration and he explained to me why he decided to
:02:43. > :02:47.The point came when I decided I shouldn't be a part of this in any
:02:48. > :02:50.way at all positively was when the commission
:02:51. > :02:54.was considering which would be the lead campaign.
:02:55. > :02:57.Everybody literally on the Leave Campaign were trying
:02:58. > :03:04.The Leave Campaign decided they were going to concentrate on immigration
:03:05. > :03:08.on a very negative basis and try to frighten people away
:03:09. > :03:15.That is why most of the BME community in the community
:03:16. > :03:20.is actually now pushing very much towards Europe.
:03:21. > :03:22.And do you believe the tactics by the leave
:03:23. > :03:28.I think the Leave Campaign have failed to put
:03:29. > :03:33.They have not put forward any credible academic studies
:03:34. > :03:37.on the issue of how the economic situation would be better off
:03:38. > :03:40.and that has really hindered them, rather than just concentrating
:03:41. > :03:42.on race they should have concentrated on the economic
:03:43. > :03:47.message, how positive it would have been to move forward.
:03:48. > :03:51.I think a lot of people will have been excited by that.
:03:52. > :03:57.Can I just ask you what do you think black and minority ethnic
:03:58. > :04:00.voters thought of that vote leave poster, advert, which showed
:04:01. > :04:02.millions of Turkish citizens walking through a UK passport interview?
:04:03. > :04:04.Totally horrified and appalled by it.
:04:05. > :04:07.This is again what makes people really frightened about their own
:04:08. > :04:09.status in this country and that was really negative,
:04:10. > :04:12.that was absolutely dismal in terms of a national
:04:13. > :04:26.These people are isolating them and making them feel like that queue
:04:27. > :04:30.of the Turkish and making them feel like they are not part of the UK.
:04:31. > :04:32.Boris Johnson has been criticised for casual racism
:04:33. > :04:34.after he highlighted what he described as the part Kenyan
:04:35. > :04:41.I think Boris's exploration of Barack Obama's heritage
:04:42. > :04:43.and pointing out where he came from is totally
:04:44. > :04:46.racist and Boris has a lot to apologise for in relation
:04:47. > :05:01.What would vote leave say in response to that? They have issued a
:05:02. > :05:06.statement of the back of that and in that statement they have said to
:05:07. > :05:11.ask, we have always said that we want a fair immigration system, one
:05:12. > :05:15.which allows us to prioritise the brightest and best from around the
:05:16. > :05:19.world, not just people who happen to be born in other EU countries. We
:05:20. > :05:28.will continue to make the positive case for voting to leave the EU.
:05:29. > :05:32.They might like to point out that the MP left their campaign a few
:05:33. > :05:35.months ago and he was not exactly a major strategist and he was not
:05:36. > :05:42.really somebody who attended their board meetings. Where does the
:05:43. > :05:46.campaign go from here? What is happening tomorrow? There is a clear
:05:47. > :05:50.message from the lead campaign tonight which is we can still win
:05:51. > :05:55.this. There was a poll that showed they were tied on 41% and another
:05:56. > :06:07.poll that showed the lead campaign were ahead on 44%. Tomorrow critics
:06:08. > :06:15.will be saying that they should be making a speech about how they can
:06:16. > :06:18.get deals outside the EU. But if you are talking about emigrating you are
:06:19. > :06:22.potentially harming your brand in the way that the Conservatives did
:06:23. > :06:25.ten years ago when David Davis was Shadow Home Secretary and not happy
:06:26. > :06:30.Nick Watt there and a little later we'll hear from Katie Razall
:06:31. > :06:34.In 80 minutes' time legal highs become illegal.
:06:35. > :06:36.The Psychoactive Substances Act takes effect.
:06:37. > :06:38.The Act helpfully explains what it is designed to combat.
:06:39. > :06:41.A psychoactive substance means any substance which is
:06:42. > :06:44.capable of producing a psychoactive effect, it says.
:06:45. > :06:55.But it goes on to explain a psychoactive, but in
:06:56. > :06:58.But it goes on to explain a psychoactive effect, but in
:06:59. > :07:01.This in fact, giving the Act it's power.
:07:02. > :07:04.No longer will ingenious chemists be able to circumvent the law
:07:05. > :07:05.with new concoctions, as they're already banned.
:07:06. > :07:08.But it is such a broad definition, specific legal exemptions have had
:07:09. > :07:11.to be set out for less harmful psychoactive substances
:07:12. > :07:18.Secunder Kermani reports on what is a big legal change.
:07:19. > :07:22.We're doing Simon's service tomorrow.
:07:23. > :07:29.Melanie is preparing to bury her second brother.
:07:30. > :07:32.He died after becoming addicted to legal highs.
:07:33. > :07:35.Three years ago, he drowned after falling into a river whilst
:07:36. > :07:47.Then three weeks ago she found Simon's body next to a packet of
:07:48. > :07:51.legal highs. After he died MELANIE JONES: A post on Facebook, shared
:07:52. > :07:56.hundreds of times. Her brothers had been heroin addicts for years, but
:07:57. > :08:00.Melanie says when they moved on to legal highs their impact was even
:08:01. > :08:04.more devastating. We could not make sense of the things they were
:08:05. > :08:12.saying, lots of paranoia, divisional thoughts, psychotic episodes. After
:08:13. > :08:16.William's death three years ago, Simon became more dependent on legal
:08:17. > :08:21.highs. As a family we were emotionally torn between trying to
:08:22. > :08:26.grieve for William and to try to support Simon, so it was a difficult
:08:27. > :08:29.time for all of us. In the days before his death Simon came to stay
:08:30. > :08:33.with Melanie and was playing for a while and even wrote on his Facebook
:08:34. > :08:37.about the upcoming ban on legal highs. But then he got an e-mail
:08:38. > :08:43.from a company who were selling them. He mentioned an offer that
:08:44. > :08:50.they were doing and it was three for two, or free delivery of a certain
:08:51. > :08:56.amount, and he said it feels like a sign. The next day Melanie found her
:08:57. > :09:00.brother's body. Beside him was a packet of legal highs. I did not say
:09:01. > :09:07.that at the time, but when the police came they saw this and it was
:09:08. > :09:12.cherry bomb, a brand of legal high, and that was what this was beside
:09:13. > :09:20.him. One I saw him I knew he was gone. The legal ban is coming into
:09:21. > :09:25.force the day after Simon's funeral. We will always have drugs and
:09:26. > :09:30.addiction problems. These drugs will be legal highs, the same drugs sold
:09:31. > :09:35.in a different manner. The ban coming into effect is a positive
:09:36. > :09:40.step so kids are not getting in tights, walking down the high
:09:41. > :09:45.Street, going next door for a count of energy being and into the shot
:09:46. > :09:49.next door for a legal high. These are some of the product that from
:09:50. > :09:53.midnight the night will be illegal to sell either online or in
:09:54. > :09:58.so-called head shots. The Government is bringing the new law into force
:09:59. > :10:02.because in the past when it tried to outlaw the particular substance the
:10:03. > :10:07.manufacturers would tinker with it, creating for illegal purposes an
:10:08. > :10:12.entirely new one. However, not everyone is convinced this new law
:10:13. > :10:15.will solve the problem. At this drop-in centre in Birmingham they
:10:16. > :10:21.have seen the numbers addicted to legal highs rise rapidly. This is
:10:22. > :10:27.what is collected in this area over the last three years. Many are
:10:28. > :10:31.addicted to synthetic cannabinoids, but their effects are more like
:10:32. > :10:40.heroin or crack rather than cannabis. Maybe you take one or two
:10:41. > :10:46.and people will be keeling over. To ban these things is a good thing,
:10:47. > :10:52.but that is not the full story. Because the demand will not go away?
:10:53. > :10:58.The demand will not go away, the reason why people use will not go
:10:59. > :11:04.away. I smoke it to stop having stomach pains. Kevin had been taking
:11:05. > :11:08.them for years. They see the effects both on the streets and in jail.
:11:09. > :11:14.What do they do to your mental health? It has changed a lot of
:11:15. > :11:21.people. It has destroyed a lot of people. It has made a lot of people
:11:22. > :11:26.more violent. I got stopped about three weeks ago with a screwdriver.
:11:27. > :11:32.They are torn about what the effects of the ban will be. We know we will
:11:33. > :11:38.still be able to get it next week and the week after. We know and
:11:39. > :11:43.everybody else does, but people still take it. Are you in favour of
:11:44. > :11:48.it being banned? For what it is doing to people, yes. Britain is
:11:49. > :11:52.said to have one of the highest rates of legal high usage in the
:11:53. > :11:57.world, but legal highs are not all the same. Laughing gas in festivals
:11:58. > :12:03.and nightclubs is one of the substances that will be outlawed. It
:12:04. > :12:09.can be dangerous, but far less than synthetic cannabinoids. Specific
:12:10. > :12:18.exemptions in the new law have been written in for alcohol and caffeine.
:12:19. > :12:22.Here we have... Steven Reid is a user of legal substitutes for drugs
:12:23. > :12:27.like LSD that are about to be banned. There are whole range of
:12:28. > :12:36.substances that are currently legal and different substances have vastly
:12:37. > :12:40.different risk profiles. Things like LSD are extremely safe, but
:12:41. > :12:45.synthetic cannabinoids seemed to be much more risky and it seems to me
:12:46. > :12:49.that we need to evaluate each class of substances according to its own
:12:50. > :12:54.risks and benefits and avoid trying to take this blanket approach. Lots
:12:55. > :12:58.of the head shots selling legal highs of all descriptions have been
:12:59. > :13:02.closed down in recent months under pressure from local councils and
:13:03. > :13:07.trading standards. In Ireland where they passed a similar law six years
:13:08. > :13:12.ago they had been completely wiped out, but there have only been a
:13:13. > :13:18.handful of prosecutions. For Melanie and her family the law is already
:13:19. > :13:22.too late, but having seen both her brothers die and use heroin and
:13:23. > :13:31.legal highs, she knows which is the most dangerous. If they were still
:13:32. > :13:35.here today and they were addicted to heroin, it might still have caused
:13:36. > :13:38.their deaths. But as far as being of healthy mind and still having a
:13:39. > :13:44.relationship with their family, then, yes, heroin would have been a
:13:45. > :13:47.much better choice. To discuss the ban on legal highs
:13:48. > :13:51.here in the studio with me is the Vice journalist and author
:13:52. > :13:59.of Narcomania, Max Daly, and from Belfast we have
:14:00. > :14:01.Adele Wallace whose son tragically died last year in April
:14:02. > :14:11.from taking legal highs. Adele, can you tell us how these
:14:12. > :14:18.drugs affected Adam? Legal high drugs totally destroyed my son, he
:14:19. > :14:27.was only 17, and still a child when he was using them. They made him
:14:28. > :14:31.suicidal, affected him in detrimental ways. He lost everything
:14:32. > :14:39.that was of value to him, everything precious. To watch your child change
:14:40. > :14:43.like that, and the aggressive violent side kicked in as well, it
:14:44. > :14:49.was soul destroying to see this happening before your eyes, and to
:14:50. > :14:54.actually have to bury your child at 17 for something that was so easily
:14:55. > :15:01.accessed, so cheap and yet so deadly, it beggars beyond belief.
:15:02. > :15:06.And as I understand it, he was aware that this was destroying him towards
:15:07. > :15:09.the end, correct? Yes, but it got to the point where the drugs were so
:15:10. > :15:13.addictive, the legal highs themselves are so addictive, but
:15:14. > :15:20.inside there was this little boy that wanted to stop, and he did seek
:15:21. > :15:24.help on the 9th of April, and very sadly, he had put a status on
:15:25. > :15:28.Facebook prior to that stating very clearly, my life is hell, it is
:15:29. > :15:32.miserable, I want to get off these drugs, please don't come near me and
:15:33. > :15:37.offer me drugs, don't offer me any of them, it isn't that I don't want
:15:38. > :15:43.to be your friend, but I need to get myself off these. And on the night,
:15:44. > :15:52.he did seek help and spoke to a clinical psychologist from Cahms,
:15:53. > :16:02.the child and adult mental health services, but then he took a legal
:16:03. > :16:04.high on the 13th, it was not a vast amount, one and a half grams, and
:16:05. > :16:09.they usually only band three grams and upwards, it was shared tween
:16:10. > :16:13.three, himself and two others, so it wasn't a vast amount between the
:16:14. > :16:18.three, smoked, but it was enough to kill him. It is heartbreaking. Max,
:16:19. > :16:22.does everybody agree on the objective that it reducing the
:16:23. > :16:27.consumption of these things is a good thing? Yes, because a lot of
:16:28. > :16:35.legal highs now, we are talking synthetic cannabinoids, they are
:16:36. > :16:38.pretty nasty things. You have reservations about whether banning
:16:39. > :16:45.is going to actually work or reduce harm, correct? Yes, I understand why
:16:46. > :16:47.the Government made this new law. There is no way they could have
:16:48. > :16:53.schoolchildren going into these shops next Mothercare or whatever
:16:54. > :17:00.and getting extremely potent drugs, it is a ridiculous situation. But,
:17:01. > :17:04.and it will probably stop some kids from getting hold of these drugs,
:17:05. > :17:08.the fact that the shops will shut down, I spoke to the owner of a head
:17:09. > :17:12.shot today, he is shutting down, like most of them will do, and the
:17:13. > :17:24.other ones will get into vague thing, cigarette gaping. -- vaping.
:17:25. > :17:29.But what will happen is the more vulnerable users, such as synthetic
:17:30. > :17:32.weed, they will be on the buy them on the street, because the trade
:17:33. > :17:40.will immediately swapped from shops to the street, and there was a study
:17:41. > :17:44.done in Blackburn last year, and a headshot, the city's main one was
:17:45. > :17:48.shut down by The Authority is, and literally the local crack and heroin
:17:49. > :17:54.dealer bought up all the stock and started selling it on the streets,
:17:55. > :17:58.and to attract customers, you started giving away free pies. So
:17:59. > :18:03.you would say it is worse that way than buying it from a shop? Sales
:18:04. > :18:08.will continue to the more vulnerable people. Adele, what you think of
:18:09. > :18:13.that? Do you think Adam, if he hadn't had legal highs, would have,
:18:14. > :18:18.like so many people, bought a legal highs, and whether just changing the
:18:19. > :18:22.status from legal to a legal is something that isn't going to be
:18:23. > :18:27.very material, or is it material? To be honest, Adam was able to access
:18:28. > :18:30.them from shops and also from drug dealers, so in my opinion, it didn't
:18:31. > :18:38.make any difference, he was accessing them both, they were both
:18:39. > :18:42.available, but I personally think the legislation is needed, and
:18:43. > :18:48.obviously with any legislation there is always room for things to go
:18:49. > :18:51.underground, because where there is money to be made by ill gotten
:18:52. > :18:55.gains, people will abuse it. They need more resources to help people
:18:56. > :18:58.with addiction, because I know for a fact in Northern Ireland there is
:18:59. > :19:02.not enough resources to help with the amount of addiction, and
:19:03. > :19:08.especially with legal highs. There is a big volume in demand, and the
:19:09. > :19:12.services are just not there, because it is rife over here, and it is
:19:13. > :19:17.prevalent in all communities, causing havoc in every way, and the
:19:18. > :19:20.worst bit is it is causing massive fatalities. Adele and Max, thank you
:19:21. > :19:23.very much indeed. Britain may have been arguing
:19:24. > :19:25.about Europe for decades, but there's one other issue we've
:19:26. > :19:27.been discussing almost as long. Where to build extra
:19:28. > :19:29.airport capacity? Do you remember the Roskill
:19:30. > :19:31.Commission in the '60s that recommended a new airport in
:19:32. > :19:33.Cublington? Well, that didn't happen
:19:34. > :19:35.and we are still waiting Heathrow of course, wants
:19:36. > :19:40.the right to expand. A national hub that has
:19:41. > :19:43.for decades been at the heart Is this patch of West London,
:19:44. > :19:50.conveniently close to the centre of the capital, the best place
:19:51. > :19:54.for a mega world-class airport? With planes having to queue
:19:55. > :19:59.for much of the time, Heathrow struggles to cope
:20:00. > :20:01.with overcrowding, and more airlines Nowhere in the world handles as much
:20:02. > :20:08.traffic on two runways, and last year, a national airports
:20:09. > :20:10.commission recommended that When we asked for proposals,
:20:11. > :20:17.we got more than 50, We have concluded that
:20:18. > :20:20.the north-west runway But the Government has paused
:20:21. > :20:24.for thought and stalled for time, and says it can't
:20:25. > :20:29.make up its mind yet. Heathrow is thus
:20:30. > :20:31.on a charm offensive. Here's the new chairman
:20:32. > :20:37.of the airport in Liverpool. Turn up the temperature a little bit
:20:38. > :20:41.and rehearse the arguments again so people understand it's
:20:42. > :20:43.not just about London. And Heathrow is getting
:20:44. > :20:50.some support there. The expansion of Heathrow
:20:51. > :20:52.isn't about Heathrow, it isn't about the south-east,
:20:53. > :20:55.it's about the whole UK economy. And for us here in Liverpool,
:20:56. > :20:57.it is about connecting Liverpool to the rest of the world,
:20:58. > :21:00.and Heathrow can provide Protests over noise,
:21:01. > :21:06.problems over air pollution, the obstacles to a bigger
:21:07. > :21:08.Heathrow are formidable. Oh, and they include
:21:09. > :21:14.the new mayor, Sadiq Khan. I'm quite clear, unlike Boris
:21:15. > :21:16.Johnson. I don't want to close
:21:17. > :21:19.down Heathrow Airport. I want it to flourish and thrive,
:21:20. > :21:22.to be better not bigger. They've made promises in the past
:21:23. > :21:25.they've failed to deliver. I want the new runway
:21:26. > :21:30.at Gatwick Airport. The new Heathrow chairman does
:21:31. > :21:33.at least have the right background He was in charge of the team
:21:34. > :21:36.organising the London Olympics, and went on to become
:21:37. > :21:38.Treasury Minister responsible Lord Deighton, the new
:21:39. > :21:55.chairman of Heathrow. He started as a Goldman Sachs
:21:56. > :21:57.banker, was chief executive of the London Organising Committee
:21:58. > :22:00.of the Olympic Games and then became Commercial Secretary
:22:01. > :22:02.to the Treasury, taking charge of the UK's national infrastructure
:22:03. > :22:06.plan until last year. Are we going to get a decision soon?
:22:07. > :22:09.For me, this is about the future of the British economy, and what kind
:22:10. > :22:16.of economy we want in the 21st-century, what our level of
:22:17. > :22:23.ambition is. Do we want that airport can -- that can connect us to the
:22:24. > :22:27.rest of the world? And do you think that they will deliver on the
:22:28. > :22:33.promise they made before the election last year, when they were
:22:34. > :22:36.postponing making a decision? We are expecting a decision soon, but they
:22:37. > :22:43.are very distracted at the moment. Let's look at some of the obstacles.
:22:44. > :22:46.Night flight, you have said your night flight, six and a half hours
:22:47. > :22:49.overnight, you will take flight site. You have not promised to do it
:22:50. > :22:53.in quite the way the airport commission had suggested you would
:22:54. > :22:58.do it. Is that a problem for you to do it the weather commission said?
:22:59. > :23:02.We have time to reflect on what commission said, which is leaving a
:23:03. > :23:06.six on hour window. We have pushed it back the other way to distribute
:23:07. > :23:09.the benefits so that people who are suffering from planes taking off at
:23:10. > :23:12.night get just as much respite as the people dealing with early
:23:13. > :23:22.arrivals in the morning. Out the commission OK with that? 5:30am is
:23:23. > :23:28.quite an early time for a plane to be making it's way out over London?
:23:29. > :23:31.It is a lot better than 4:30am. Have the airport commission said that is
:23:32. > :23:35.OK? What we're going to do is give them the evidence to prove it. But
:23:36. > :23:40.they set that as a condition and you haven't currently agreed to that
:23:41. > :23:42.condition strictly. What we have done is said we will bring that in
:23:43. > :23:48.as soon as we get planning permission, not when we get the
:23:49. > :23:52.extra runway, so that is a real benefit. Air quality is the thing
:23:53. > :23:54.that the Government has said is its problem. We have had the vaults
:23:55. > :23:57.wagon scandal, there has been much more concern about London air
:23:58. > :23:59.quality than anyone was thinking about two years ago. Ash max the
:24:00. > :24:15.vaults we at Heathrow will be the leader in
:24:16. > :24:18.terms of sustainable airports. But that is not the planes, you're
:24:19. > :24:26.talking about the vans driving around. On air quality specifically,
:24:27. > :24:32.that is a car and road issue, it is specifically a diesel issue, it is
:24:33. > :24:36.not a plane issue, so it is whether we drag more cars into the airport,
:24:37. > :24:41.and in terms of the other surface access to the airport, rail,
:24:42. > :24:46.bringing in electric cars, we are confident we won't be in breach of
:24:47. > :24:51.air quality rules. This is a London wide traffic problem, it is not an
:24:52. > :24:55.air problem. Nightmare for you but, Boris Johnson
:24:56. > :25:00.becomes Prime Minister, implacably opposed to the third runway at
:25:01. > :25:07.Heathrow, Sadiq Khan, Mayor of London, also opposed to a third
:25:08. > :25:13.runway. If that happens, it's gone? There is no third runway? This is
:25:14. > :25:16.really about the vision you have that the UK economy. You want a
:25:17. > :25:22.first-rate economy with an airport that actually is competitive? Every
:25:23. > :25:26.time we defer the decision, the chief executive at ship all sends us
:25:27. > :25:40.a cake and says thank you, because they are the ones that benefit --
:25:41. > :25:45.Schipol. Not literally? Literally, because they are acting as our third
:25:46. > :25:49.runway. But you won't get a third runway at Boris Johnson becomes
:25:50. > :25:58.Prime Minister. The only question is if he becomes premise in six weeks
:25:59. > :26:06.or four years. In four years you might have started to build the
:26:07. > :26:09.runway. I worked closely with Boris on the tree airport, and he thought
:26:10. > :26:15.that was the vision for the future, but we can explain to him that
:26:16. > :26:18.Heathrow is the only realistic vision to give us the 21st-century
:26:19. > :26:24.economy we need. Good luck trying to persuade him! We have met all the
:26:25. > :26:28.airport commission's conditions on the environment, and that should
:26:29. > :26:32.make the decision a lot easier. There is a rule if you are in
:26:33. > :26:35.government that you can't lobby, you can't use the former contact
:26:36. > :26:39.associates you had in government for two years, so you are now sitting in
:26:40. > :26:45.a job which is basically a lobbying job trying to persuade Government to
:26:46. > :26:49.take a third runway, and you are not able to lobby. I am not able to
:26:50. > :26:53.lobby directly, but there is an enormous amount of other work to do
:26:54. > :26:57.at Heathrow. The arguments are effectively made for the third
:26:58. > :27:01.runway, the case has been put out there, it is for the Government now
:27:02. > :27:05.to make a decision. I have been very focused on making sure that we can
:27:06. > :27:09.do everything internally to make it possible to make that decision, so
:27:10. > :27:13.we are ready to go. We have the money ready, the team ready, we have
:27:14. > :27:17.satisfied the conditions the airport commission laid down, so everything
:27:18. > :27:21.is ready to go, that is my job. It is then to the Government to make
:27:22. > :27:25.its decision. Has Britain a problem with infrastructure? The indecision,
:27:26. > :27:33.the time it takes, look at HS2, Hinkley point, goodness knows if
:27:34. > :27:36.that will ever happen. Is there something in, what you put that down
:27:37. > :27:41.to? I think you can draw different lessons from different projects.
:27:42. > :27:45.Some of course we delivered spectacularly well, we're proud of
:27:46. > :27:49.the Olympics. Crossrail is going well at the moment, and that project
:27:50. > :27:52.will effectively expand London, and I would like to do the same
:27:53. > :27:57.obviously with another runway at Heathrow. The issue is how do you
:27:58. > :28:03.weigh up the long-term economic benefits which everybody enjoys
:28:04. > :28:06.against some of the localised costs which of you suffer, and our
:28:07. > :28:12.political process does spend a long time looking at those short-term
:28:13. > :28:14.costs. Thank you very much. From one Lord to another.
:28:15. > :28:17.Lord Sugar, Alan Sugar, of Apprentice fame, has been
:28:18. > :28:18.appointed as the Government's Enterprise Tsar by
:28:19. > :28:22.This is his second stint at that role because he did it
:28:23. > :28:25.for Gordon Brown some years back, but Gordon Brown lost an election,
:28:26. > :28:27.and Lord Sugar left the Labour Party last year.
:28:28. > :28:30.As he has been public about his support for remaining
:28:31. > :28:33.in the EU, one wonders if the timing of his appointment might have been
:28:34. > :28:35.designed to garner some publicity for his views.
:28:36. > :28:37.Well, I went to meet him in Westminster earlier today,
:28:38. > :28:39.to talk business, politics, almost everything in fact.
:28:40. > :28:45.We began by talking about his new appointment.
:28:46. > :28:47.I wish to instil entrepreneurial spirit and explain
:28:48. > :28:49.the apprenticeship opportunities not just to the young people
:28:50. > :28:58.But you are basically going to be touring the country,
:28:59. > :29:04.It's very similar to what I've done in the past, obviously.
:29:05. > :29:07.I think the important thing is for apprentices to take a job
:29:08. > :29:10.where they are going to learn while they earn, and the Government
:29:11. > :29:13.has laid on the kind of facilities for them to do this, and employers,
:29:14. > :29:15.it is important for employers to understand and put
:29:16. > :29:28.You were of course a member of the Labour Party
:29:29. > :29:31.until about a year ago, and you left because I think
:29:32. > :29:35.you felt they had fallen out of love with business far too much.
:29:36. > :29:37.Yes, that's quite right, and I left at a time before
:29:38. > :29:41.Jeremy Corbyn was appointed, so it looked like I had some
:29:42. > :29:45.You are definitely not going to rejoin now, then?
:29:46. > :29:48.Are you going to join the Conservatives?
:29:49. > :29:55.You are famous, most famous now in this country among
:29:56. > :29:57.young people for filling the role of the Apprentice.
:29:58. > :30:01.Your American counterpart is Donald Trump.
:30:02. > :30:06.You've likened him to Hitler, I don't have that...
:30:07. > :30:08.Whoa, you are starting to sound like Piers Morgan.
:30:09. > :30:13.You don't want to be classed as, you don't want to be categorised
:30:14. > :30:19.I called him the Pied Piper, actually.
:30:20. > :30:21.You said there were comparisons to be made, comparisons
:30:22. > :30:27.How worried are you about Donald Trump?
:30:28. > :30:34.If I was an American, I would be very, very worried.
:30:35. > :30:36.Mr Trump considers himself as a great businessman.
:30:37. > :30:43.I have been in business for 50 years, coming up 50 years now.
:30:44. > :30:46.I haven't put any companies that I am involved in into insolvency
:30:47. > :30:53.You may need to look up your facts and just to see what his history is,
:30:54. > :30:56.and you may need to look up your facts and to see
:30:57. > :30:59.whether the buildings and the businesses that
:31:00. > :31:03.bear his name actually have anything at all to do with him.
:31:04. > :31:13.I understand you are on the side, and I think a lot of businesses
:31:14. > :31:18.I just wonder if I can ask what you think about the campaign.
:31:19. > :31:21.A lot of people are saying that the fear factor
:31:22. > :31:24.of what is meant to happen to us if we come out has been overdone.
:31:25. > :31:29.I am very concerned about this now, it is getting close
:31:30. > :31:36.I am very, very concerned, because ordinary people,
:31:37. > :31:39.what I call ordinary people that I speak to every day
:31:40. > :31:45.They're not stupid, and they know that they are being frightened
:31:46. > :31:48.by the Brexit people and frightened by the staying people,
:31:49. > :31:52.and they really want to understand the reasons why we should either be
:31:53. > :31:57.staying in or the reasons that they are saying we should go.
:31:58. > :32:03.Now, my personal view is that this is crazy,
:32:04. > :32:08.it is absolutely ludicrous we cannot even think about exiting.
:32:09. > :32:13.These people that are advocating exit, with all due respect to them,
:32:14. > :32:15.some of them are politicians, there is an ex-mayor,
:32:16. > :32:19.who has gone off the rails at the moment now.
:32:20. > :32:22.I had a lot of respect for him until a couple of weeks
:32:23. > :32:24.ago with the outlandish things he has been saying.
:32:25. > :32:29.There's 500 million people that we have to sell to,
:32:30. > :32:32.and we need to ship our goods out, they are our biggest,
:32:33. > :32:38.You've said some pretty scathing things about George Osborne
:32:39. > :32:44."If I were David Cameron, I would think about sacking him."
:32:45. > :32:47.That was Osborne a few years ago - 2012, you said that.
:32:48. > :32:53.I am not here for you to bring up a whole host of things that I might
:32:54. > :33:00.No, but it is fun because you are now working with these guys,
:33:01. > :33:04.and you said all this stuff about them.
:33:05. > :33:07.I am taking on a position to promote entrepreneurial spirit
:33:08. > :33:11.You get this in your head, first of all.
:33:12. > :33:13.Let me throw the question back to you.
:33:14. > :33:18.Not looking for a knighthood, I have been Sir Alan.
:33:19. > :33:20.I am not looking for a peerage, I am a lord.
:33:21. > :33:24.There is nothing in this for me other than my passion to want
:33:25. > :33:27.to instill enterprise into people, and whether it is David Cameron
:33:28. > :33:31.or George Osborne or Jeremy Corbyn or whatever, they should be thankful
:33:32. > :33:36.that they have got someone like me doing it.
:33:37. > :33:39.And you are not going to be toeing any party line or told what to say
:33:40. > :33:59.We heard Nick earlier reporting on arguments on the Leave side
:34:00. > :34:01.about whether the campaign is in danger of alienating minority
:34:02. > :34:06.Does a commonwealth heritage make you more inclined to stay
:34:07. > :34:11.Katie Razzall has the latest of her Referendum Road films now.
:34:12. > :34:16.She went to the West Midlands to find out.
:34:17. > :34:18.It's one of Britain's favourite dishes.
:34:19. > :34:23.Now curry has got mixed up in the EU referendum debate.
:34:24. > :34:25.Restauranteurs complain that tightened immigration rules stop
:34:26. > :34:31.them bringing in skilled chefs and other staff from South Asia.
:34:32. > :34:35.The Leave campaign is promising a vote for Brexit would change that.
:34:36. > :34:38.They say without open borders to Europe, Britain could re-forge
:34:39. > :34:48.I was invited to sample the best Bangladesh could offer up by way
:34:49. > :34:51.of Sutton Coldfield, but do these curry house owners buy
:34:52. > :35:00.The only reason is the staff shortage.
:35:01. > :35:04.Do you blame the Government for that?
:35:05. > :35:06.Definitely the EU, and the second is Government.
:35:07. > :35:12.Have controlled migration, but it is not all open borders.
:35:13. > :35:15.We don't know where we stand at the moment.
:35:16. > :35:19.And if we, obviously with the Commonwealth,
:35:20. > :35:21.we will get more immigration, migration from there as well.
:35:22. > :35:26.So you have picked up that message from the Leave campaign?
:35:27. > :35:29.People coming from Europe, they are no good for us at all.
:35:30. > :35:35.People who have no experience, people who even could not stand
:35:36. > :35:41.the smell of aromatic spices, how can you justify to recruit them,
:35:42. > :35:57.The Prime Minister appeared on the Birmingham-based Sikh Channel
:35:58. > :36:00.recently arguing the case for Remain.
:36:01. > :36:04.British and minority ethnic voters could decide this referendum.
:36:05. > :36:07.According to the British election study, unlike white voters,
:36:08. > :36:11.who appear evenly split on the issue, two thirds of the BAME
:36:12. > :36:21.It is going to be largely a Remain vote for many,
:36:22. > :36:26.Certainly from our programming, we have been out in the Sikh
:36:27. > :36:28.community and we're getting an overwhelming sense that people
:36:29. > :36:31.want to stay as a part of the EU, because this issue really
:36:32. > :36:34.is about segregation and separation, and the Sikh community strongly
:36:35. > :36:39.believe in one world and one society.
:36:40. > :36:42.As well as live news and daily prayers, the Sikh Channel is running
:36:43. > :36:46.a nightly referendum programme up to the vote.
:36:47. > :36:49.I know Vote Leave has raised the idea that if we stop
:36:50. > :36:52.being a member of the EU, we will be able to close our
:36:53. > :36:55.borders, which means we will be able to not take EU migrants necessarily,
:36:56. > :36:58.and choose to bring people in from the Commonwealth instead.
:36:59. > :37:04.I don't think it resonates with the Sikh community,
:37:05. > :37:07.because it seems to be a bit of a shallow argument.
:37:08. > :37:10.We will replace one type of migration with another type
:37:11. > :37:16.That doesn't seem to ring true, and if there is any Asian
:37:17. > :37:19.communities who are supporting that sort of stance, there may
:37:20. > :37:22.be some self-interest in that they want to see people
:37:23. > :37:38.from their home countries be preferred.
:37:39. > :37:42.Long before EU citizens set up home in the UK, immigrants from Britain's
:37:43. > :37:45.colonies were moving here, filling jobs created
:37:46. > :37:52.When Britain last held a referendum on Europe, many argued
:37:53. > :37:56.we were turning our backs on the Commonwealth and those
:37:57. > :38:01.The Commonwealth diaspora helped make the West Midlands the UK's
:38:02. > :38:04.most ethnically diverse region outside London,
:38:05. > :38:06.and it's a key battle ground for the ethnic
:38:07. > :38:13.I would like to buy this suit for my son, please.
:38:14. > :38:15.Mrs Chipta and her husband moved to Birmingham from
:38:16. > :38:20.He worked in a factory, she started her own venture.
:38:21. > :38:21.Was it you who set up the shop?
:38:22. > :38:33.Her son now runs the place, and is a keen Outer.
:38:34. > :38:37.Most of the products that we sell now are manufactured outside
:38:38. > :38:42.of Europe, so if we were to be able to have trade agreements
:38:43. > :38:48.with countries like China, with India, with Commonwealth
:38:49. > :38:52.countries, we would be able to be much more competitive on these goods
:38:53. > :38:56.We are paying into a club which we personally don't
:38:57. > :39:01.What I would like is a fair immigration system.
:39:02. > :39:05.Do you feel there is an irony in the fact that somebody like you,
:39:06. > :39:08.whose parents came over, you were immigrants originally,
:39:09. > :39:11.and now you are complaining about new immigrants?
:39:12. > :39:19.If we had a system which was fair, which went all around the world,
:39:20. > :39:23.so we get the best people from around the world,
:39:24. > :39:27.so we are able to get computer programmers from India,
:39:28. > :39:30.we are able to get nurses, doctors from any of the Commonwealth
:39:31. > :39:35.countries where they speak our language, they have the same law
:39:36. > :39:38.system and everything as us, it is much easier.
:39:39. > :39:48.So immigration isn't the problem, it is the levels of immigration.
:39:49. > :39:50.Across town at Birmingham's Mack gallery, an exhibition
:39:51. > :39:53.by Barbara Walker of the contribution made by black
:39:54. > :39:56.servicemen and women to Britain's Armed Forces.
:39:57. > :40:00.A visual reminder of our Commonwealth heritage.
:40:01. > :40:03.But amongst the people we gathered here, all of Caribbean descent,
:40:04. > :40:07.few saw those links as a decider in the referendum.
:40:08. > :40:11.Our unity is strength, and if the UK leaves Europe,
:40:12. > :40:20.So I think it will have a devastating effect on businesses.
:40:21. > :40:23.I know a lot of people are quite emotional about this,
:40:24. > :40:25.losing our jobs to people from abroad, but...
:40:26. > :40:33.When we have historically been the great nation that Britain
:40:34. > :40:36.managed to carve itself out to be, a big part of that was our link
:40:37. > :40:41.There was our link to other parts of the world that actually
:40:42. > :40:43.helped us to gain our strength economically and politically.
:40:44. > :40:46.I think we are in a different world now.
:40:47. > :40:49.We don't know what is going to happen if we separate,
:40:50. > :40:52.and whilst some are arguing that to separate could be better,
:40:53. > :40:55.that could is a really, really big could.
:40:56. > :40:58.I'm hopeful that some of the discussions and some
:40:59. > :41:01.of the things that we will want to change are really about taking
:41:02. > :41:03.away some of the support mechanisms for people right
:41:04. > :41:09.If it wasn't for Europe, we wouldn't have the protections
:41:10. > :41:12.for maternity leave, the 48-hour rule, and if you remove
:41:13. > :41:14.all the protections, then I fear that those sorts
:41:15. > :41:23.Older voters are more likely to be for Brexit,
:41:24. > :41:25.but that is not how Raka Omar sees it.
:41:26. > :41:28.My grandfather for example came over here in the '60s from Jamaica, so it
:41:29. > :41:32.took around six weeks to get here, and he really fought for a better
:41:33. > :41:34.life, and coming here, really working after World War II,
:41:35. > :41:36.the country was completely dismantled, and helping with others
:41:37. > :41:39.to put that back together, working in the NHS,
:41:40. > :41:41.building our country back again to really build a stronger
:41:42. > :41:45.European Union as well as obviously the UK, to leave that EU
:41:46. > :42:00.In the more recent past, Britain did things slightly differently,
:42:01. > :42:02.and therefore we've got a lot more Caribbeans,
:42:03. > :42:06.a lot more Indians in the UK compared to the other European
:42:07. > :42:09.countries, and being out of the EU could potentially allow us to build
:42:10. > :42:19.Will ethnic minority voters decide this referendum?
:42:20. > :42:23.Operation Black Vote said today one third of Britain's 4 million
:42:24. > :42:26.or so BAME voters are not actually registered.
:42:27. > :42:29.Today the organisation released this controversial poster in an attempt
:42:30. > :42:35.The minority voters' apparent support of Remain
:42:36. > :42:45.could prove decisive, but only if they turn out to vote.
:42:46. > :42:48.That is all we have time for this evening.
:42:49. > :42:51.Kirsty will be presenting tomorrow, and will be talking