:00:07. > :00:09.Tonight: It's a deal worth more than ?18 billion and described
:00:10. > :00:13.by this Government as essential for the UK's energy plans.
:00:14. > :00:16.But Newsnight reveals that there are new doubts
:00:17. > :00:22.about whether Hinkley C nuclear plant will ever be built.
:00:23. > :00:27.And official consultation of the committee which represents the staff
:00:28. > :00:30.and unions within EDF is currently going ahead, Newsnight has
:00:31. > :00:33.exclusively spoken to the secretary of that committee and we have
:00:34. > :00:40.learned that the consultation is not going well. For the company.
:00:41. > :00:42.Also tonight: Net migration rises again to its second
:00:43. > :00:46.As immigration hits centre stage in the EU debate,
:00:47. > :00:49.we'll ask this Government minister and Brexiteer
:00:50. > :00:53.And Scotland's First Minister raises the prospect of a second referendum
:00:54. > :01:02.If Scotland is in the situation where we are faced with being taken
:01:03. > :01:06.out of the year even though we voted to stay in, of course there would be
:01:07. > :01:10.many people in Scotland, not everybody, but many who would say,
:01:11. > :01:16.we need to protect our EU membership. And, today in the United
:01:17. > :01:21.States. It could be that we will run against crazy Bernie, could become a
:01:22. > :01:23.crazy Bernie, here's a crazy man, but that is OK, we like crazy
:01:24. > :01:26.people! On the day Donald Trump
:01:27. > :01:30.all but clinches the Republican nomination, why is the man he calls
:01:31. > :01:37."Crazy" Bernie about to face him We'll debate whether divisions
:01:38. > :01:41.in the Democrat party are making We begin tonight with fresh
:01:42. > :01:49.revelations about the future of the planned ?18 billion power
:01:50. > :01:54.plant at Hinkley Point in Somerset. It had originally been
:01:55. > :01:57.due to open next year, but has been hit by delay
:01:58. > :02:00.after delay after delay, and now won't open until 2026
:02:01. > :02:03.at the earliest. The latest setback came a month ago
:02:04. > :02:07.when the company said it was delaying giving the project
:02:08. > :02:09.the go-ahead until it had
:02:10. > :02:10.consulted its trade unions, Now Newsnight has exclusively been
:02:11. > :02:18.told that that consultation has so far done nothing to reassure
:02:19. > :02:23.the unions, and that there is little chance
:02:24. > :02:39.of them giving their blessing VOICEOVER: A symbol of so much,
:02:40. > :02:45.Hinkley C, a huge infrastructure plan, and ?18 million the life which
:02:46. > :02:49.could supply 7% of our electricity. -- ?18 billion a liar. It will be
:02:50. > :02:55.built by EDF, the electricity company majority-owned by the French
:02:56. > :02:58.state, and it is a victory in the attempts to court Beijing, a third
:02:59. > :03:02.of the capital will come from China. -- goliath. At the outset, critics
:03:03. > :03:09.had concerns about whether we may be overpaying for Hinkley C, but today,
:03:10. > :03:14.the real danger to this project comes from France, we are still
:03:15. > :03:18.awaiting final sign off. In France, the finance director left EDF over
:03:19. > :03:22.concerns about whether the financial risk of Hinkley C was too great, to
:03:23. > :03:26.understand why, it is worth looking across the Channel, two other places
:03:27. > :03:31.where it is building the same model of reactor as it plans for Hinkley
:03:32. > :03:36.C, the so-called EPR. It is an immensely save enormous structure,
:03:37. > :03:41.which, however, looks as though it is almost uncontrollable. There are
:03:42. > :03:44.two projects around the world where this exactly the same design very
:03:45. > :03:49.much the same design being constructive. Both of them are in
:03:50. > :03:55.enormous difficulty. The one in Finland is about ten years late, in
:03:56. > :04:01.Normandy, being created by EDF, that will be in the order of 12 years
:04:02. > :04:04.late at least. The French energy minister has already stated publicly
:04:05. > :04:08.that she has concerns about the cost and the risks associated with
:04:09. > :04:13.Hinkley C, the unions, who have particularly powerful officials
:04:14. > :04:17.within the state-owned company, also have concerns, they want the project
:04:18. > :04:21.forward. This week, the French finance minister, wrote to British
:04:22. > :04:25.MPs to explain to them that the project was still on track, but
:04:26. > :04:30.right now, there is a moratorium on Hinkley C, and that is because an
:04:31. > :04:33.official consultation of the committee which represents the staff
:04:34. > :04:39.and unions within EDF is going ahead. Newsnight has exclusively
:04:40. > :04:41.spoken with the secretary of the committee, and we have learned that
:04:42. > :05:15.the consultation is not going well, for the company. We were told:
:05:16. > :05:22.unions do not have a veto, could EDF press ahead against their will?
:05:23. > :05:26.Going for it would be for the government crossing a red line in
:05:27. > :05:32.their relationship with the trade unions, which would make it really
:05:33. > :05:35.difficult for the government, especially thinking about the next
:05:36. > :05:40.general election, where they will need to get back some support of the
:05:41. > :05:45.trade unions. Remember where we started, this is a political project
:05:46. > :05:50.as well as an economic project. The political commitments is completely
:05:51. > :05:56.confirmed, we back Hinckley point, it is very important for France, it
:05:57. > :06:03.is very important for the nuclear sector and EDF. -- Hinkley Point.
:06:04. > :06:06.Others are less convinced. I do not believe that it is going to start
:06:07. > :06:15.one day, I think that the chance is that it does not come online
:06:16. > :06:20.increase. The reason being... Making the decision for the project is not
:06:21. > :06:27.possible right now. The political cost, the cost for EDF's financial
:06:28. > :06:31.situation is too high. That could leave our government in an odd
:06:32. > :06:35.position, accused of paying too much for a nuclear power plant at home
:06:36. > :06:42.and in driving a hard bargain that was not deliverable abroad.
:06:43. > :06:44.STUDIO: The day the latest migration figures were released by the Office
:06:45. > :06:47.of National Statistics was always going to be a big moment
:06:48. > :06:51.The increase in net migration in 2015 was 20,000, bringing
:06:52. > :06:53.the figure to 330,000, and Boris Johnson called it
:06:54. > :06:55.a "scandalous Government failure", his Government's failure.
:06:56. > :06:56.He was referring to the Government's aspiration
:06:57. > :06:58.to cut the number to under 100,000.
:06:59. > :07:00."The system has spun out of control," he exclaimed.
:07:01. > :07:02.So what exactly would the Brexiteers do about it?
:07:03. > :07:05.In a moment I'll be speaking to the Northern Ireland Secretary,
:07:06. > :07:14.Theresa Villiers, one of the six Cabinet members backing an EU exit.
:07:15. > :07:22.But first here's our political editor Nicholas Watt.
:07:23. > :07:28.VOICEOVER: From the shores of Sicily to the borders of Ukraine,
:07:29. > :07:33.uncontrolled flow of migrants entitled to enter Britain, that is
:07:34. > :07:40.the message spelt out in Churchill style language that the main Brexit
:07:41. > :07:45.campaign has delivered spell out the core reason for wanting to leave the
:07:46. > :07:48.EU, today was a big moment for the vote Leave campaign, the reason the
:07:49. > :07:53.final set of migration statistics before the referendum, net migration
:07:54. > :07:58.rose rainier record peak of 330,000 last year, illustrating a key theme,
:07:59. > :08:02.until the UK takes full control of its borders, it will fail to meet
:08:03. > :08:09.the government 's target of reducing net migration below 100,000.
:08:10. > :08:15.The blue line shows the greatest portion of EU migration is from all
:08:16. > :08:19.the member states, part of the club before the Big Bang expansion in
:08:20. > :08:25.2004, the yellow line shows the eight Eastern European countries
:08:26. > :08:32.that joined in 2004, the red line shows Romania, and Bulgaria, which
:08:33. > :08:35.joined in 2007. One senior Brexit figure believes that wherever they
:08:36. > :08:39.are coming from, the numbers must fall. The right number will be in
:08:40. > :08:46.the tens of thousands, between the low tens, and up to about 100,000. I
:08:47. > :08:49.find it hard to imagine a circumstance where it would be
:08:50. > :08:54.beneficial to Britain to have more than 100,000 every year. But, you
:08:55. > :09:00.must let the economy drive that. The vote to leave campaign is focusing
:09:01. > :09:05.heavily on immigration in the final phase of the campaign to get the
:09:06. > :09:11.vote out, a full 58% of the electorate believe that immigration
:09:12. > :09:15.would fall if the UK left the EU. Clear red line for the government is
:09:16. > :09:19.that the British people are voting to leave the European Union on the
:09:20. > :09:23.23rd, on the 24th, the government must recognise that one key
:09:24. > :09:27.component of what they voted forward border control. Whatever else we
:09:28. > :09:31.discuss and negotiate with the European Union about whatever kind
:09:32. > :09:32.of arrangements over trade, border control is our red line, that is
:09:33. > :09:42.exactly what they voted. White Vote -- Vote Leave has ambitions beyond
:09:43. > :09:45.June 24, they believe that by gaining full control of the UK
:09:46. > :09:49.borders, the government of the day will be able to achieve something
:09:50. > :09:53.unprecedented in the modern era, consent for immigration. Vote Leave
:09:54. > :09:58.source said that he dreams of a day when he will be able to stand up in
:09:59. > :10:00.Parliament and make the case for higher immigration on the basis that
:10:01. > :10:07.the UK alone would be setting a limit is. -- one Vote Leave source.
:10:08. > :10:11.It is not beyond our wits to come up with a system which would be a
:10:12. > :10:16.combination, whether it is an Australian points system,
:10:17. > :10:19.recognition of historic links and responsible it is, skills needed,
:10:20. > :10:22.all of those things, but the key element is that it is decided at
:10:23. > :10:27.Westminster and has the consent of the people who have elected us. An
:10:28. > :10:32.absence of consent does not allow you to take that kind of leadership.
:10:33. > :10:40.Required to say that within controlled immigration can and is a
:10:41. > :10:44.good thing. Tonight, the first official debate of the campaign was
:10:45. > :10:49.held in Glasgow. Immigration was to the fore. Are you saying that if
:10:50. > :10:54.Britain votes to leave, there would be visas or there would not?
:10:55. > :11:00.Victoria, we just do not know. We just do not know. BOOING
:11:01. > :11:04.Because we have a Prime Minister who has said that there is no Plan B, he
:11:05. > :11:09.has not presented a single bit of detail as to what happens, if we
:11:10. > :11:14.vote to leave, and he has left it all completely open. These exchanges
:11:15. > :11:18.highlighted the need to tread carefully on such a sensitive
:11:19. > :11:25.subject, think of immigration as a lily pad, I was told, allowing the
:11:26. > :11:30.vote leave frog to jump into less contentious areas, like pressures on
:11:31. > :11:31.the NHS, in a way that appeals across the political spectrum, they
:11:32. > :11:37.believe they have a path to victory. STUDIO: I am joined by the Northern
:11:38. > :11:40.Ireland Secretary, Theresa Villiers, who wants to see the UK
:11:41. > :11:49.leave the EU. Good evening, let's go through a few
:11:50. > :11:56.of the migration issues. If we vote to leave the EU, we close borders,
:11:57. > :11:59.is that correct? We would still have immigration if we vote to leave the
:12:00. > :12:08.EU, the different would be that the people we vote to elect at
:12:09. > :12:11.Westminster would decide. Would there be fewer people, do you agree
:12:12. > :12:16.with the point by David Davis, maximum 100,000 every year? It gives
:12:17. > :12:21.us the chance to bring down the current numbers. That is the idea.
:12:22. > :12:24.Without taking control of immigration policy again, we have no
:12:25. > :12:29.chance of getting a grip on the current numbers. You think the
:12:30. > :12:33.numbers are too high. I think they are too high. We have a manifesto
:12:34. > :12:39.commitment to get them down under 100,000. Let's say that the economy
:12:40. > :12:44.is doing extremely well and you need workers, and you need workers from
:12:45. > :12:50.all over the world, if you needed 330,000 workers, you would be happy
:12:51. > :12:54.to have 330,000? If you had 350,000 that you need it, would that be
:12:55. > :12:58.happy? We have a commitment to bring down the numbers below 100,000, call
:12:59. > :13:03.me old-fashioned, we should try to achieve that. That is a principle,
:13:04. > :13:07.100,000, no matter if the economy was booming and you needed those
:13:08. > :13:12.workers, the door would be closed? The reality is that we would
:13:13. > :13:16.introduce a more intelligent system, focused on the skills gap, which
:13:17. > :13:20.judges people more fairly, from wherever they come in the world,
:13:21. > :13:25.judged on merit rather than if they happen to come from an EU country.
:13:26. > :13:29.No matter how things are going, you say you cannot see a situation where
:13:30. > :13:32.we would need more than 100,000 every year? Beyond the next general
:13:33. > :13:36.election it is up to the party to put forward their numbers, but we
:13:37. > :13:42.have a manifesto commitment, obviously we are determined to
:13:43. > :13:45.deliver on that. Below 100,000? Obviously in the future, after a
:13:46. > :13:50.general election, those commitments can change, at the moment, our
:13:51. > :13:54.commitment is to bring numbers down below 100000 and there is a lot of
:13:55. > :14:01.support for that. Let's talk about how this will work.
:14:02. > :14:07.Let's just talk about how this would work. Let's say you have Britons
:14:08. > :14:14.working in France, would they have to come back home and apply for
:14:15. > :14:17.visas? It is very clear that if immigration rules change, they can't
:14:18. > :14:23.apply retrospectively, so no one who is already working in France would
:14:24. > :14:28.be forced to come back. That is what you say, but the French might not
:14:29. > :14:35.say it. We are all banned by international conventions, so it is
:14:36. > :14:39.clear that whether you are an EU worker in the UK or a work in the
:14:40. > :14:43.rest of Europe, rules on freedom of movement do not apply
:14:44. > :14:47.retrospectively. So let's say that there is a Polish nurse here now,
:14:48. > :14:53.but she wants to bring her mother over after we would hypothetically
:14:54. > :14:58.leave the EU. Would you have to get a Visa? That will be down to the
:14:59. > :15:04.Government that we elect. The principle here is not leave campaign
:15:05. > :15:08.mandating a new immigration system. We want to give power back to the
:15:09. > :15:13.Government to take decisions on immigration. So is it possible a
:15:14. > :15:18.family member could just come in? If you listen to that debate tonight,
:15:19. > :15:25.Diane James from Ukip were saying we just don't know about visas for
:15:26. > :15:29.people. And people are concerned, if you are a young Polish worker here,
:15:30. > :15:33.your mother is sick in Poland and you want to bring her over, would
:15:34. > :15:38.you need a tech backstreet? What this debate is about is who takes
:15:39. > :15:41.the decisions on migration. There is a great amount of support in this
:15:42. > :15:46.country for taking our own decisions on migration. The beauty of that is
:15:47. > :15:51.we have democratic accountability, at the moment these decisions are
:15:52. > :15:56.made by a council of Ministers, the European court of justice, not by
:15:57. > :15:58.people who are elected. So a young Polish person who can vote in this
:15:59. > :16:04.EU Referendum Bill but a young person from Britain can. So say you
:16:05. > :16:09.are a young architect, you want to go to Berlin or Prague. You would
:16:10. > :16:12.need a tech backstreet ago, presumably? We are not mandating the
:16:13. > :16:21.rules would will be applying in the rest of the EU in the event of a UK
:16:22. > :16:25.exit, but there are thousands of citizens from around the world who
:16:26. > :16:27.work in Europe, many of whom do not come from EU member states, there
:16:28. > :16:39.were thousands of the Jewish people who worked in the EU -- thousands of
:16:40. > :16:44.British people working in EU before we joined. But this is putting
:16:45. > :16:48.pressure on our public services and housing. But people thinking about
:16:49. > :16:54.how they are going to vote want answers. Every young person wants to
:16:55. > :16:57.go to Europe to be an architect, or if a young German person wants to
:16:58. > :17:01.come here and learn to be an architect, they will have to have a
:17:02. > :17:05.visa, is that right? There may be changes in the terms on which people
:17:06. > :17:10.can travel, but these would be decided in Britain as a result of
:17:11. > :17:17.democratically accountable decisions, and we ought to take into
:17:18. > :17:20.account another problem for young people and that mass migration from
:17:21. > :17:26.Europe is depressing wages in this country, that is a fact. Let's talk
:17:27. > :17:29.about security. We already know the French have said that there will be
:17:30. > :17:36.no border in Calais, the border will have to go back over here. The
:17:37. > :17:39.French government have said various different things about this. The
:17:40. > :17:44.Justice Minister has been supportive of those arrangements. The reality
:17:45. > :17:50.is the French camp all the plug... The Financial Times, March the 3rd,
:17:51. > :17:53.Emanuel macron, the French Minister said, the day this unravels,
:17:54. > :18:00.migrants will no longer be in Calais, they will be on the dish
:18:01. > :18:03.coast, won't they? The French home affairs Minister has been very
:18:04. > :18:07.supportive of this. It is a bilateral arrangement, the French
:18:08. > :18:10.could all the plug right now they wanted to, but the reasons the
:18:11. > :18:14.arrangement is in place is because it is in the interests of both
:18:15. > :18:19.France and the UK, so there is no reason for them to pull the plug.
:18:20. > :18:23.But the point is, the migrants who want to come here, why would the
:18:24. > :18:29.French bother stopping them, locking them up, having them in the
:18:30. > :18:33.so-called Jungle at Calais? It will be up to Britain to deal with them
:18:34. > :18:36.when they wish. But this arrangement is in France's interest as well as
:18:37. > :18:42.the UK's, otherwise it wouldn't be in operation now. Let's look
:18:43. > :18:45.somewhere else, and this is your territory, where we have a land
:18:46. > :18:49.border between Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland, and there is no
:18:50. > :18:56.question of the Republic of Ireland leaving the EU. Will that border the
:18:57. > :19:00.entirely open? I would say it will be entirely open. We had a common
:19:01. > :19:03.travel area allowing free movement of people between the Republic of
:19:04. > :19:08.Ireland and the United Kingdom ever since the creation of the Irish
:19:09. > :19:13.state 100 years ago. But there wasn't free movement of peoples and
:19:14. > :19:17.the rest of the EU. So in your view, should there be an open border
:19:18. > :19:22.between Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland? Definitely. The
:19:23. > :19:28.Common travel area survived a civil war, World War I30 years of the
:19:29. > :19:30.Troubles. It will survive the exit. So theoretically, any member from
:19:31. > :19:37.European state could come to Southern Ireland and go straight
:19:38. > :19:41.into Northern Ireland and into the United Kingdom? There is nothing to
:19:42. > :19:44.stop them doing that. , travel area gives rights to Irish citizens which
:19:45. > :19:50.would be absolutely maintained in the event of a Brexit. I don't mean
:19:51. > :19:55.are citizens. I mean other people who wish to enter the UK, can
:19:56. > :19:59.somebody do it through the Northern Ireland Southern Ireland open
:20:00. > :20:03.border? There would be certain risks to be managed in retaining an open
:20:04. > :20:08.border in the event of a Brexit vote, but very similar risks already
:20:09. > :20:14.occur and are appropriately managed through Corporation between the
:20:15. > :20:18.authorities... What are those risks? Individuals coming into Ireland who
:20:19. > :20:22.may not have an entitlement to come into the UK, so those risks occur
:20:23. > :20:27.today. The idea that suddenly we will have hundreds of thousands of
:20:28. > :20:30.citizens from other EU countries heading across-the-board between
:20:31. > :20:35.Ireland and the UK, it is fanciful, to be honest. If we change the rules
:20:36. > :20:41.on free movement, there would be constraints on the rights of those
:20:42. > :20:44.EU citizens to enter the UK. But if you tighten borders elsewhere, while
:20:45. > :20:49.even this border open? Because of the close relationship that we have
:20:50. > :20:53.between the UK and Ireland. Because that open border has served us well
:20:54. > :20:56.for 100 years, there is no need to scrap it, and it is important for
:20:57. > :21:02.border areas of Northern Ireland that we keep it. Let's move on to
:21:03. > :21:06.the last hurrah before purdah, the last piece of Treasury analysis. The
:21:07. > :21:12.analysis is that people will be worse off in terms of their pensions
:21:13. > :21:18.between 220 ?330 per year if we leave the EU. You are the former
:21:19. > :21:21.Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury. Is that a reasonable
:21:22. > :21:24.assumption? I don't believe that it is, and I don't believe people are
:21:25. > :21:30.taken in by what I'm not neutral reports. We can trade these
:21:31. > :21:34.forecasts from here until referendum day, but the last time the Treasury
:21:35. > :21:41.predicted a shock in the way they are doing at the moment was when we
:21:42. > :21:45.were members of the ERM, they said they would be an inflation Russia
:21:46. > :21:52.and the economy would crash, the truth, inflation came down, interest
:21:53. > :21:55.rates came down, we had a decade of growth, they were wrong then and
:21:56. > :21:56.they are wrong now. Theresa Villiers, thank you grow much for
:21:57. > :22:00.joining us. Now, if you're sick of referendums
:22:01. > :22:02.already - surely not! Polls tell us that Scotland is more
:22:03. > :22:07.in favour of remaining in the EU But there's been some suggestion
:22:08. > :22:11.that if the UK votes to leave, Scotland might, in turn, hold
:22:12. > :22:13.another independence referendum. Who better to tell us
:22:14. > :22:15.than Scotland's first Put in the words "our country"
:22:16. > :22:34.instead of "Scotland", and that is a pretty powerful
:22:35. > :22:36.argument for leaving One of the reasons, one of the many
:22:37. > :22:42.reasons I want Scotland to be an independent country is so that
:22:43. > :22:44.as an independent country in an interdependent world,
:22:45. > :22:47.we decide for ourselves the extent to which we share sovereignty
:22:48. > :22:52.and the organisations that we choose I am somebody who believes
:22:53. > :22:55.in Scottish independence, I want Scotland to be
:22:56. > :23:03.outward-looking and play a full part in the world,
:23:04. > :23:05.and the European Union is an organisation I want Scotland,
:23:06. > :23:08.whether it is independent or part But you could argue,
:23:09. > :23:12.and have some sympathy for the argument, presumably,
:23:13. > :23:15.that the EU is a distant force that doesn't actually understand
:23:16. > :23:17.different countries' cultures For me, that is an argument
:23:18. > :23:21.for countries to be in there trying to change and reform the union
:23:22. > :23:23.and make it more responsible I do just think this
:23:24. > :23:27.argument that being a member of the EU is inconsistent
:23:28. > :23:29.with being an independent All 28 member state of the EU
:23:30. > :23:35.are independent countries, and if you go to Germany
:23:36. > :23:37.or France or Sweden... But Scotland is not an
:23:38. > :23:51.independent country. And actually no
:23:52. > :23:54.prospect of being so. We may agree to differ on that,
:23:55. > :23:57.but let's not go there just now. What I'm saying is, whether Scotland
:23:58. > :24:00.is an independent country or part of the UK, I think it is better
:24:01. > :24:04.for our interests overall to be playing a part in the world,
:24:05. > :24:06.cooperating with other independent countries to deal with the issues,
:24:07. > :24:08.climate change, energy security, refugee crises, that
:24:09. > :24:10.countries themselves can't The scenario would be that
:24:11. > :24:14.Scotland votes to remain, but overall, the United
:24:15. > :24:16.Kingdom votes to leave. You have been repeatedly asked
:24:17. > :24:19.about whether or not there would be I am not going to get dragged,
:24:20. > :24:30.no matter how hard you try, I am not going to get dragged
:24:31. > :24:33.too far into the realms of the speculative,
:24:34. > :24:35.because I actually don't want It is only four weeks out,
:24:36. > :24:39.you have to be public, surely. With the greatest of respect,
:24:40. > :24:41.I think I'm entitled in those four weeks as somebody who believes
:24:42. > :24:44.that there should be a Remain vote to argue the case for
:24:45. > :24:47.a Remain vote not only I have argued that
:24:48. > :24:52.for my whole adult life. But I don't want to see the UK vote
:24:53. > :24:55.to come out of the union. On that basis, would you do
:24:56. > :24:58.anything it took? Would you share a platform
:24:59. > :25:00.with David Cameron? I will take part over the next few
:25:01. > :25:06.weeks in some debates around the European Union and membership,
:25:07. > :25:09.but I will make the case that Would you share a platform
:25:10. > :25:12.with David Cameron? There are no plans as far
:25:13. > :25:14.as I am aware... Look, I'm not planning to share
:25:15. > :25:18.a platform with David Cameron, but this is much bigger than just
:25:19. > :25:20.individual politicians. I am having to try hard
:25:21. > :25:29.to keep up with all these Scotland votes to remain,
:25:30. > :25:35.England votes narrowly to go, and Scotland's vote pulls
:25:36. > :25:39.England over the line. What would the atmosphere be
:25:40. > :25:41.like then with the Again, I'm not going to get dragged
:25:42. > :25:46.into the speculation around I hope, and what I'm going to focus
:25:47. > :25:50.on for the next four weeks is playing my part,
:25:51. > :25:52.albeit my small part, in trying to make sure
:25:53. > :25:55.that there is a big overwhelming vote in Scotland, and I hope
:25:56. > :25:58.there is also an overwhelming vote But if there is a vote in Scotland
:25:59. > :26:03.to remain and a vote throughout the rest of the UK to go,
:26:04. > :26:06.can you see a situation in which there wouldn't be
:26:07. > :26:09.the possibility of a referendum? I think, and I have said this
:26:10. > :26:12.before, if Scotland is in the situation where we are faced
:26:13. > :26:15.with being taken out of the EU even though we voted to stay
:26:16. > :26:17.in, particularly given the fact that we were told
:26:18. > :26:20.that it was independence that imperilled our EU membership,
:26:21. > :26:23.then of course I think that there would be many people
:26:24. > :26:28.in Scotland, not everybody, but many people in Scotland,
:26:29. > :26:31.who'd say, we have to protect our EU membership and look again
:26:32. > :26:34.at independence as the way If you were free to do so,
:26:35. > :26:38.and I say this because, as you know, migration is one of the big issues
:26:39. > :26:41.around this EU referendum, if you were free to do so,
:26:42. > :26:44.would you take more non-EU I think countries should
:26:45. > :26:48.have the ability, and Scotland should have the ability,
:26:49. > :26:50.to set its immigration policy based People come into this country
:26:51. > :26:55.from other EU countries and make a net positive
:26:56. > :26:57.contribution to our economy. The figures that are published
:26:58. > :27:08.today, the increase in net migration on my reading is as much to do with
:27:09. > :27:13.a fall in emigration as it is to do There are as many people coming
:27:14. > :27:17.from outside of the EU as that are from inside the EU,
:27:18. > :27:19.so let's have a fact-based Let's not lose sight of that central
:27:20. > :27:24.point, that EU migrants actually make a net positive
:27:25. > :27:26.contribution to our economy, and that is before we talk
:27:27. > :27:29.about the cultural and social advantages of having people able
:27:30. > :27:31.to come here and people from here able to go
:27:32. > :27:35.to other European countries. Looking at who you think
:27:36. > :27:37.your main opposition The principal party
:27:38. > :27:41.of opposition is the Tories. And that says, I think,
:27:42. > :27:43.actually more about the state of the Labour Party in Scotland
:27:44. > :27:46.than it does about the state But I'm more interested
:27:47. > :27:52.in what my job is as the Government of Scotland to lead Scotland,
:27:53. > :27:55.to tackle the challenges we have is a country and to seize
:27:56. > :27:57.the massive opportunities If, the day after the referendum,
:27:58. > :28:02.Scotland is out of the I hope that is not the case,
:28:03. > :28:10.and if that is the scenario we find ourselves in on the 24th of June,
:28:11. > :28:13.I will guarantee I will sit down with you and we will have
:28:14. > :28:15.this conversation. But I'm going to spend as much
:28:16. > :28:19.energy as I can in the almost four weeks now between now and the 23rd
:28:20. > :28:22.of June making the case for that I hope people vote, and I hope
:28:23. > :28:28.people vote in large numbers to stay Nicola Sturgeon says that she will
:28:29. > :28:50.be on Newsnight on the 24th of June. Republican and Democratic
:28:51. > :28:52.presidential candidates traditionally do not debate each
:28:53. > :28:54.other until both parties have selected their nominees,
:28:55. > :28:56.but then there's not much that's So perhaps it shouldn't be
:28:57. > :29:00.a surprise that today we learned that Donald Trump wants
:29:01. > :29:02.to debate the underdog Democratic Party challenger,
:29:03. > :29:03.Bernie Sanders. The move will further
:29:04. > :29:05.frustrate his rival, frontrunner Hillary Clinton,
:29:06. > :29:07.who wasn't invited to this particular showdown, and who has
:29:08. > :29:12.plenty of her own troubles. Today the State Department's
:29:13. > :29:14.Inspector General found that Clinton ignored clear guidance
:29:15. > :29:17.that her e-mail set-up broke agency rules and could have left government
:29:18. > :29:22.secrets vulnerable to hackers. Joining us to discuss these
:29:23. > :29:39.developments are Nomiki Konst, O journalist and broadcaster who
:29:40. > :29:46.used to in turn for Hillary Clinton. I'm not sure why you introduced me
:29:47. > :29:51.as an intern, I did that when I was in college, 15 years ago. It was
:29:52. > :29:56.rather than simply being a supporter, you were somebody who
:29:57. > :30:02.knows Hillary Clinton. No, I don't, I interned on her campaign as a
:30:03. > :30:06.college student. I was booked to discuss my column on Bernie Sanders.
:30:07. > :30:11.If you are looking for someone to speak for the campaign, I should
:30:12. > :30:15.probably encourage you to book summary of. I'm very happy to talk
:30:16. > :30:18.about the entire idea of Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton, we are
:30:19. > :30:22.live on television, and that is what we would like to talk about. Is
:30:23. > :30:23.there anything wrong with Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump going
:30:24. > :30:30.head-to-head just now? It is kind of adding to the reality
:30:31. > :30:34.show nature of this campaign, I have got to be honest, I was under the
:30:35. > :30:38.impression I was here to discuss a column I wrote for the daily beast
:30:39. > :30:41.about race and Bernie Sanders, I did not know that I was here to talk
:30:42. > :30:44.about the reality show nature of Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump
:30:45. > :30:52.ready to have a verbal wrestling match. -- Daily Beast. Really we are
:30:53. > :30:55.just here for your knowledge on the campaign, looking across from the
:30:56. > :31:00.Atlantic. You think that Hillary Clinton should bite the bullet,
:31:01. > :31:03.should she get Memento and going, even if she has to take on Donald
:31:04. > :31:11.Trump now, do that, get some momentum? Yes, I think that she has
:31:12. > :31:14.been critiquing Donald Trump in her speeches, which indicates she's
:31:15. > :31:18.looking ahead to the general, not really focused on the primary
:31:19. > :31:22.anymore, it is unrealistic that Bernie Sanders can catch her in the
:31:23. > :31:27.delegate count, that is what matters in terms of who will be the
:31:28. > :31:31.Democratic nominee. We are in a situation now where Bernie Sanders
:31:32. > :31:37.himself could actually make some traction with this kind of debate,
:31:38. > :31:41.you are keen to talk about Bernie Sanders and race, what is it in
:31:42. > :31:44.particular that you think that he is achieving? The column that I wrote,
:31:45. > :31:48.that I was under the impression I was here to discuss, was the level
:31:49. > :31:51.of harassment that African-American journalists like myself have faced
:31:52. > :31:54.when they have dared to criticise Bernie Sanders, one of the reasons
:31:55. > :31:58.I'm disappointed in how your produces chose to introduce me is
:31:59. > :32:01.one of the misconceptions that Bernie Sanders supporters have been
:32:02. > :32:05.spreading is that anyone who is critical of him must be a supporter
:32:06. > :32:08.of Hillary Clinton or paid by the Clinton campaign. Part of the
:32:09. > :32:12.misinformation of that is that people like myself, who in turn for
:32:13. > :32:16.the Clinton campaign 15 years ago, when I was in college, was described
:32:17. > :32:20.as someone who was a secret supporter of Hillary Clinton. People
:32:21. > :32:24.like Diane Sawyer worked for president Nixon when she was young,
:32:25. > :32:27.she went on to become a very accomplished journalist, her
:32:28. > :32:33.integrity was not questioned. And so I was talking about my piece about
:32:34. > :32:36.how the level of insult attacks and derogatory claims made by Sanders
:32:37. > :32:43.supporters against female journalists and African-American
:32:44. > :32:47.journalists really spoke to a level of indecency and a lack of civility.
:32:48. > :32:54.In the campaign cycle, which we have not seen before. Who is instigating
:32:55. > :32:58.it? Well, look, one of the things I learned in my column is that it was
:32:59. > :33:02.not one person or two people, it was a coordinated effort, I have someone
:33:03. > :33:06.who works in me who reads my mail, the read a lot of my e-mail and
:33:07. > :33:09.social media, and really goes through it, I was attacked so badly
:33:10. > :33:13.for about a week after I wrote several months ago that I did not
:33:14. > :33:17.consider Bernie Sanders particularly electable because polling shows that
:33:18. > :33:21.socialists in America have a very tough time being accepted. By
:33:22. > :33:25.voters. What I found is that the level of attacks were so bad that
:33:26. > :33:29.there were Sanders people that said my Facebook page, please stop
:33:30. > :33:32.attacking her, and after that, one of the Sanders supporters responded
:33:33. > :33:38.in kind, she is a journalist, anything short of violence should be
:33:39. > :33:40.acceptable...? Taking this to the last question which I want to ask,
:33:41. > :33:47.is there something that Hillary Clinton can do to unite this very
:33:48. > :33:49.fractious, if we are to be believed, very fractious Democratic race,
:33:50. > :33:56.obviously you have faced that yourself.
:33:57. > :34:02.The onus is on people like Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump to
:34:03. > :34:06.discourage violence at rallies, the onus is on Bernie Sanders to
:34:07. > :34:11.vigorously denounced the threats that female Democratic official in
:34:12. > :34:14.Nevada has received from many of the supporters, death threats that she
:34:15. > :34:18.received, which he did not vigorously denounced, the onus is on
:34:19. > :34:21.him to say that we can disagree, you can hate her writing, you can think
:34:22. > :34:27.Kelly Gough is a terrible writer, I'm sure when the people do, but
:34:28. > :34:32.there is a level of decency, and civility that we need to maintain in
:34:33. > :34:36.our society full. -- Kelli Goff. Thank you very much a joining us.
:34:37. > :34:42.-- that we need to maintain in our society.
:34:43. > :34:44.On Friday President Obama will travel to Hiroshima,
:34:45. > :34:46.becoming the first American president to visit the city
:34:47. > :34:49.where the US dropped the first atomic bomb during World War II.
:34:50. > :34:51.It's a trip his ten predecessors since Truman have avoided.
:34:52. > :34:54.The White House says there will be no apology.
:34:55. > :34:56.But some survivors of the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki
:34:57. > :34:59.We spoke to some survivors about their memories
:35:00. > :38:41.Viewers may find some of their stories distressing.
:38:42. > :38:47.The first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base, that was
:38:48. > :38:53.because we wished in this first attack to avoid insofar as possible
:38:54. > :38:55.the killing of civilians. We have used it in order to sharpen the
:38:56. > :42:34.agony of war. That is all we have time for, good
:42:35. > :42:48.Sky being lit up in the south by a series of thunderstorms, could well
:42:49. > :42:50.be heavy showers around. Across Wales and Southern counties.
:42:51. > :42:51.Steadily fading, then the afternoon