:00:07. > :00:16.Think you understand what it is to be in the EU? The league campaign
:00:17. > :00:21.wants you to think again. -- the leave campaign. You cannot have a
:00:22. > :00:26.single currency without political union. There has to be a United
:00:27. > :00:31.States of the euro down. Chris Grayling argues for Vote Leave, Emma
:00:32. > :00:33.Reynolds votes remain. I'm going to build a wall
:00:34. > :00:39.and Mexico's going to I'm going to bomb the BLEEP out
:00:40. > :00:50.of them. Foreign policy under a President
:00:51. > :00:57.Trump - stability or stupidity? One of his advisers joins us live.
:00:58. > :01:05.And when will things get better regain for Labour? The party has mac
:01:06. > :01:10.-- the party's ideas man thinks he may have the answers.
:01:11. > :01:13.For months, the Remain side in the referendum campaign has
:01:14. > :01:17.challenged the Leave side to tell us "what does out look like?"
:01:18. > :01:21.on its trading relationships, win friends and influence people
:01:22. > :01:31.But it's also fair to ask "what does in look like?"
:01:32. > :01:34.The EU won't stand still, there is the risk that it could pull
:01:35. > :01:36.us in a direction we don't want to go.
:01:37. > :01:39.That was the thrust of a speech by Chris Grayling today,
:01:40. > :01:45.one of the leading Cabinet members arguing for us to leave.
:01:46. > :01:48.We'll test his arguments shortly, but first here's David Grossman,
:01:49. > :02:03.We are on a journey into the future but the Prime Minister tells us we
:02:04. > :02:12.have a choice to make between the certainty of remaining in the EU and
:02:13. > :02:18.the risk of leaving. The leave sides say the equation is the reverse, it
:02:19. > :02:23.is staying inside a fast changing EU that is the biggest risk of all.
:02:24. > :02:26.Chris Grayling, the leader of the House Commons was outlining those
:02:27. > :02:29.risks in a speech today. He says one of the biggest is that Europe is
:02:30. > :02:35.marching now towards increased integration and we will have no
:02:36. > :02:38.choice but to follow. We have a new list of EU social policies which
:02:39. > :02:43.will be an integration across the eurozone. These are going to be EU
:02:44. > :02:50.laws passed in the normal way. There is no treaty change or another
:02:51. > :02:56.option to create Eurozone- only laws. We have no opt out, we will be
:02:57. > :03:00.affected. This deeper integration will happen even faster because of
:03:01. > :03:04.what is going on in the Eurozone. There has to be a single Government
:03:05. > :03:08.structure for the Eurozone. You cannot have a single currency
:03:09. > :03:17.without political union. There has to be a United States of the
:03:18. > :03:24.Eurozone. A key report sets out a vision to complete your's economic
:03:25. > :03:28.and monetary union. That vision is for fiscal union within the
:03:29. > :03:33.Eurozone, but the remain campaign says that while affect us as much
:03:34. > :03:38.because we're not in the euro and we have an opt out. I don't think the
:03:39. > :03:42.public believes that, because we build out our island and Portugal.
:03:43. > :03:52.Despite assurances, we ended up bailing out Greece as well. --
:03:53. > :03:56.bailed out Ireland. The more rich European countries bailing out the
:03:57. > :04:01.Eurozone, the less they have to get involved. A further crisis could
:04:02. > :04:08.push up the number of migrants coming to Britain from the EU, say
:04:09. > :04:14.Vote Lead bust up and that will happen if more and poorer countries
:04:15. > :04:19.join. Government policy supports Turkey joining the EU. David Cameron
:04:20. > :04:23.has been clear on this in the past. I will remain your strongest
:04:24. > :04:28.possible advocate for EU membership and greater influence at the top
:04:29. > :04:36.table of European diplomacy. The remain campaign say this is not
:04:37. > :04:40.remotely likely. They seek to play the immigration card and say that
:04:41. > :04:44.Turkey will be joining the EU, look at all these immigrants who will
:04:45. > :04:50.come here, which conveniently ignores the fact that Turkey will
:04:51. > :04:55.not join any time soon, and the UK had a veto on it taking up
:04:56. > :05:01.membership. However unlikely it may appear today, no one can rule out
:05:02. > :05:04.that Turkey and the four other candidates for joining, Albania,
:05:05. > :05:10.Macedonia, Montenegro and Serbia, will not end up in the EU.
:05:11. > :05:15.Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Council, said last year
:05:16. > :05:18.that such an army would help us to build a common foreign and national
:05:19. > :05:25.security policy, and to collectively take on Europe's responsibilities in
:05:26. > :05:29.the world. The more the EU purports to exert itself militarily, the more
:05:30. > :05:35.it distracts from Nato, which has guaranteed security in Europe since
:05:36. > :05:39.World War II. The EU is notoriously divided when it comes to foreign
:05:40. > :05:43.policy, so we don't want them pretending and posturing in the area
:05:44. > :05:47.of foreign policy, where it never delivers and distracts from Nato,
:05:48. > :05:52.the real shield we have to protect our security in Europe. The truth
:05:53. > :05:57.perhaps is that there is no truly safe road. Voters have to decide
:05:58. > :06:03.which risks they have to accept and which they would prefer to turn away
:06:04. > :06:09.from. David Grossman there. We are joined by Chris Grayling, Leader of
:06:10. > :06:16.the House of Commons, and by Labour MP Emma Reynolds, a former Shadow
:06:17. > :06:20.Europe Minister. Chris Grayling, in your speech, there is a slightly
:06:21. > :06:24.long quote: If we go to remain in the EU, it would be EU rules that
:06:25. > :06:30.determine minimum wage, that said how our pensions worked, to govern
:06:31. > :06:38.our schools system and rules that would tell us how our health service
:06:39. > :06:43.should work. Do you have any evidence that that will happen? Not
:06:44. > :06:48.only that, it is on the European Commission website as a consultation
:06:49. > :06:54.they are running, called The Social Pillar, it was in Jean-Claude
:06:55. > :06:59.Juncker's speech last year, and it sets out in detail plans on all of
:07:00. > :07:03.these areas and talks about this being a legal document it is the
:07:04. > :07:09.next stage in the integration process of the Eurozone. It says,
:07:10. > :07:22.for the Eurozone, voluntary, for outside the Eurozone, not optional.
:07:23. > :07:25.We have no opt out and there is no mechanism for Eurozone- only
:07:26. > :07:36.lawmaking. Unless there is a change to the E -- to how the EU works, and
:07:37. > :07:44.there is none on the horizon, there is no opt out. The proposition I
:07:45. > :07:47.read out is is a statement the -- is a statement that says we will not
:07:48. > :07:57.have to do this. There is no option for us to opt out. It all applies to
:07:58. > :08:02.us. Correct? This is a false premise of your speech today, with respect,
:08:03. > :08:07.Chris. We already have, for example, the banking union which only affects
:08:08. > :08:13.Eurozone countries. In fact, we have the euro, which only affects
:08:14. > :08:20.Eurozone countries. We have opted to come out of Schengen, the open
:08:21. > :08:25.borders system. There is a history of variable geometry and opt outs
:08:26. > :08:29.from the UK and states such as Denmark on many policy areas, and it
:08:30. > :08:33.seems odd to me that you should be suggesting that somehow the EU will
:08:34. > :08:36.make laws to do with skills, the national minimum wage or the health
:08:37. > :08:41.service, when there is absolutely no prospect of that. The reason is, the
:08:42. > :08:47.risks of leaving, the economic risks, are so huge and well
:08:48. > :08:53.documented that this is, frankly, a distraction technique. My point is
:08:54. > :08:57.simple. We have no opt out from European social legislation. At the
:08:58. > :09:03.moment, everything passed by the European Parliament applies to us.
:09:04. > :09:12.So where is the opt out? Can they not pass a law saying, this applies
:09:13. > :09:20.to Eurozone countries and not to the UK? Of course they can. They can do
:09:21. > :09:24.that and it doesn't cover us. Not without treaty change. I am talking
:09:25. > :09:31.about their passing a law and did not applying to the UK. They can
:09:32. > :09:39.pass a law that doesn't apply to one state. If your country begins with
:09:40. > :09:45.the U, you don't have to follow this law. Well the treaty is clear -
:09:46. > :09:48.social legislation of this kind applies to every European Union
:09:49. > :10:05.member, including the UK. Their wrist now operates -- there is no
:10:06. > :10:10.opt out. Is it true that this will apply other than voluntarily? The
:10:11. > :10:13.commission in Brussels is putting various things in the cupboard.
:10:14. > :10:19.You're suggesting he knows that this law will apply to us and is lying
:10:20. > :10:24.when he says it won't. I think the European Commission is playing down
:10:25. > :10:28.what is going to be happening after our referendum. You are making a
:10:29. > :10:34.very basic constitutional point and implying that Jean-Claude Juncker
:10:35. > :10:38.does not understand it or is being mendacious. I think the European
:10:39. > :10:42.Union is trying not to do anything controversial in the run-up to the
:10:43. > :10:48.referendum, but there is no opt out. Emma Reynolds, it is true that we
:10:49. > :10:57.have 13% of the vote in the Council of ministers. There are things the
:10:58. > :11:01.EU can do that may apply to us whether we like it or not. It is
:11:02. > :11:08.worth saying we have a veto in a number of areas, foreign policy
:11:09. > :11:13.being one of them. What often happens at EU level, and Chris will
:11:14. > :11:16.know this, is that at ministers meetings where a lot of important
:11:17. > :11:22.decisions are made, there are votes, because these decisions are made in
:11:23. > :11:28.a collaborative and cooperative way. In 97% of cases in which there are
:11:29. > :11:37.votes, and it is not often, nine out of ten cases, we get our own way. On
:11:38. > :11:41.that point, when we have opposed the European Commission in a vote in the
:11:42. > :11:49.European Council, we have never been on the winning side. Right, but it
:11:50. > :11:55.is only 13% of cases where we lose. These cross my desk all the time. We
:11:56. > :12:01.say, we don't want to do this, but it is the best we can get and it
:12:02. > :12:09.still needs ?80 million extra in costs. That crosses my desk every
:12:10. > :12:13.week. In the modern, interconnected, global world, we have decided to
:12:14. > :12:17.pool our sovereignty to be stronger, because many of the challenges with
:12:18. > :12:21.which the EU helps us, climate change, cross-border time and
:12:22. > :12:25.terrorism, trade with the rest of the world, we are strengthened in
:12:26. > :12:30.our endeavour to do that by being a member of the EU. I think we
:12:31. > :12:34.understand the geography of the Big Apple book. Another argument is that
:12:35. > :12:36.you could have a lopsided European Union, because there will be a
:12:37. > :12:50.country called the Eurozone, and Britain
:12:51. > :12:52.will be a small country at the edge of that that will be outvoted and
:12:53. > :12:54.essentially a passenger. Do you accept that that is unsatisfactory?
:12:55. > :12:57.I don't accept that is going to happen. There are nine member states
:12:58. > :13:01.outside the Eurozone. We are the biggest state outside the Eurozone.
:13:02. > :13:05.Your party leader, Chris, the Prime Minister, when he came back in
:13:06. > :13:09.February with his re-negotiation, got a guaranteed that any decisions
:13:10. > :13:13.made about the single market which affect all 28 member states, we
:13:14. > :13:16.would preserve the integrity of the single market, so anything the
:13:17. > :13:22.Eurozone could do in the future that would affect that, we would have a
:13:23. > :13:26.say. If we leave, we won't. It is the ability to say to everyone in
:13:27. > :13:30.the Council, we don't like that, could you discuss it again? It gave
:13:31. > :13:34.no more power than that. The whole point about this is, in the February
:13:35. > :13:38.document, the nine member states that are not members of the
:13:39. > :13:42.Eurozone, seven of them, not the United Kingdom or Denmark the other
:13:43. > :13:48.seven all signed up to a commitment to the Eurozone. If that document
:13:49. > :13:53.were worth something, that commitment is there, they have to
:13:54. > :13:56.join. The incidentally, it does sound like Scotland and England,
:13:57. > :14:04.what you would end up with. Is that a dysfunctional situation that you
:14:05. > :14:09.would end up with? It would be like the EU next to the Eurozone,
:14:10. > :14:14.Scotland next England. The British public needs to decide whether to
:14:15. > :14:19.vote to stay in something that is going to take on the characteristics
:14:20. > :14:24.of a United States. We will be bolted on to an emerging Eurozone
:14:25. > :14:27.Federation that will dominate the decision making. Their decisions
:14:28. > :14:32.will be what matters, our national interest will be of peripheral
:14:33. > :14:36.importance. Why talk down our involvement in the European Union?
:14:37. > :14:40.It was the Conservative Government in the 1980s that pushed the idea of
:14:41. > :14:44.the sickle market, which has been hugely successful. The idea that
:14:45. > :14:49.somehow we don't get our way in Europe and we are somehow a social
:14:50. > :14:52.outcast is absolutely not true. We are one of the biggest member states
:14:53. > :14:56.and we are powerful. I would like to leave it there. Emma Reynolds, thank
:14:57. > :14:59.you very much. Chris Grayling, I would like to ask you more
:15:00. > :15:05.questions, if I could. Your colleagues in the Leave campaign,
:15:06. > :15:08.Michael Gove and Boris Johnson, will flesh out policy. They are
:15:09. > :15:14.apparently going to visit that we would immediately end the
:15:15. > :15:15.application to UK law of the European Charter of fundamental
:15:16. > :15:25.rights. Is that right? US site has said that nothing would
:15:26. > :15:30.change if we vote to leave. Voting to announce the European Charter of
:15:31. > :15:36.fundamental human rights would take us in breach of current treaty
:15:37. > :15:41.obligations. The Charter of fundamental rights is not supposed
:15:42. > :15:45.to apply to the UK. It would be a change in our arrangement with the
:15:46. > :15:50.EU. It is part of the process of disengagement. I do not want a
:15:51. > :15:53.situation where the European Court of justice with a loosely worded
:15:54. > :15:58.document, that is starting to write UK laws in areas such as asylum, we
:15:59. > :16:05.should start that process of disengagement. You have got to make
:16:06. > :16:08.your mind up as a campaign, is something going to change on the day
:16:09. > :16:13.after we leave or is nothing going to change for two years, because we
:16:14. > :16:16.have had both of those lines coming from your campaign. Others might
:16:17. > :16:20.take it as a serious breach of our commitment to the EU to say
:16:21. > :16:26.unilaterally, we are not going to respect the right of the European
:16:27. > :16:30.court of justice to make provision for the Charter of fundamental human
:16:31. > :16:34.rights. Of course the campaign is the government and these are things
:16:35. > :16:40.that the team campaigning to leave believe that we should do. We cannot
:16:41. > :16:46.make commitments for government. We can say what we think should happen.
:16:47. > :16:52.So it is not the case if we voted to leave that the application to UK law
:16:53. > :16:56.of the Charter... The Vote Leave team believe that is what should
:16:57. > :17:00.happen but of course we are part of broader government as it is their
:17:01. > :17:05.decision. Vote Leave is not the government, it is a campaign saying
:17:06. > :17:08.this is what we should do to stop so tax or spending promises, these are
:17:09. > :17:13.all things that people are just saying. There are things that we
:17:14. > :17:19.could take back control of. Do you think it is likely that after we
:17:20. > :17:27.vote to leave, do you think the UK would take the step, to announce the
:17:28. > :17:32.right of European judges to preside over us in the way they currently
:17:33. > :17:36.do? To start the process of limiting the ability of the European Court of
:17:37. > :17:41.Justice to make new decisions for the UK as we negotiate our exit is
:17:42. > :17:46.surely sensible. And with that leads to a happy divorce procedure or
:17:47. > :17:52.annoy other nations and lead to a more dark and difficult period as at
:17:53. > :17:58.Wii outside the EU represent 17% of exports so they will want to have a
:17:59. > :18:02.sensible discussion about how we continued to collaborate in trade
:18:03. > :18:06.and in terms of security where they depend on our security services for
:18:07. > :18:10.many of the protections they provide to their citizens. Liam Fox
:18:11. > :18:17.yesterday brought up the situation of Gibraltar, and said it would
:18:18. > :18:23.remain sovereign whether or not the UK is in the EU. You think that
:18:24. > :18:28.Spain might be required, just to close the border with Gibraltar? My
:18:29. > :18:32.view on Gibraltar is that we've got to use all are diplomatic leverage
:18:33. > :18:37.with Spain to make sure that does not happen. We have the issue of
:18:38. > :18:41.Spain and Gibraltar long before we joined the EU. You will be engaging
:18:42. > :18:45.with a complicated trade negotiation and if Spain says we do not like
:18:46. > :18:52.this Gibraltar situation and will shut the border, just while we talk
:18:53. > :18:56.about this, but could make our life more difficult. Legally they cannot
:18:57. > :19:01.do that at that stage anyway. And with Gibraltar we have got to work
:19:02. > :19:06.with the Spanish to make sure that Gibraltar is properly protected.
:19:07. > :19:11.They cannot shut the border the day after we vote to leave and we have
:19:12. > :19:14.got to make sure that in what happens beyond, we protect the
:19:15. > :19:17.interests of Gibraltar and its people.
:19:18. > :19:18.Five words: President Donald Trump's foreign policy.
:19:19. > :19:22.What exactly would his foreign policy be?
:19:23. > :19:25.He has helpfully spelt it out a little.
:19:26. > :19:32.Somebody criticised me the other day because they asked me
:19:33. > :19:35.what I'd do and I said, I'm going to bomb the shit out of them.
:19:36. > :19:44.I'm going to build a wall and Mexico is going to pay for it, right?
:19:45. > :19:46.We cannot continue to allow China to rape our country,
:19:47. > :19:51.It is the greatest theft in the history of the world.
:19:52. > :19:54.It is likely that there will be more to it than that.
:19:55. > :19:57.But interestingly, North Korea appeared to endorse him today,
:19:58. > :20:04.calling him a wise politician and a far-sighted candidate.
:20:05. > :20:07.Well, to help us understand what it is a Trump
:20:08. > :20:11.we are joined by one of his foreign policy advisors, Walid Phares.
:20:12. > :20:20.You listen to that montage reselected. Do you really think that
:20:21. > :20:25.man is that to be the leader of the United States in the Western world?
:20:26. > :20:29.Of course and thank you for giving me the opportunity to explain a bit
:20:30. > :20:34.more. You look at the montage and listen to it on one hand and then
:20:35. > :20:38.listen to his foreign policy speech a few months ago and realised the
:20:39. > :20:46.general guidelines, interpretations, are found more so in that piece on
:20:47. > :20:52.foreign policy than in a montage. Of course many of the things he said
:20:53. > :20:57.need explanation and we are trying to clarify as much as we can. Just a
:20:58. > :21:04.quickfire round. You're not in favour of water boarding personally?
:21:05. > :21:08.I am a defence lawyer, I am against torture in general but the debate is
:21:09. > :21:15.not about that specific issue of torture. We had a debate in Congress
:21:16. > :21:25.and still is water boarding considered to be torture and that
:21:26. > :21:29.debate is not over. Mr Trump said later, that he would work within the
:21:30. > :21:36.laws and that would mean going to Congress to debate not just this but
:21:37. > :21:42.many other points. Just another, you agree that China, as I understand it
:21:43. > :21:47.it has freely traded with the United States in a rules -based way, has
:21:48. > :21:55.been engaged in the biggest theft in the history of the world? These are
:21:56. > :22:01.statements made at rallies and of course the strong but we have seen
:22:02. > :22:03.similar strong statements made by another president who was a
:22:04. > :22:08.Hollywood actor and became one of the most famous president of the
:22:09. > :22:12.United States, Ronald Reagan. Or perhaps from other candidate, the
:22:13. > :22:17.language used is strong. He means that we have a major Rob, a
:22:18. > :22:21.significant problem with China, but once selected he is willing to sit
:22:22. > :22:29.down and try to resolve these issues. With American foreign
:22:30. > :22:34.policy, and populist politicians, either they go the way of getting
:22:35. > :22:38.the hell out of the world and save our own troops, keep them at home,
:22:39. > :22:42.isolationism, and the other to go around the world beating up the bad
:22:43. > :22:48.guys and showing how strong we are. Of those options, isolation or
:22:49. > :22:53.intervention, which side does Donald Trump fall on? That is a good
:22:54. > :22:59.question and we get this all the time because of the statements he
:23:00. > :23:03.makes. This is a new phenomenon, he's not an isolationist, he likes
:23:04. > :23:08.to cut deals with many countries and engage in building coalitions with
:23:09. > :23:13.the right partners on the one hand. Of course on the other hand he wants
:23:14. > :23:25.American interest to come first, as every leader does. I think you could
:23:26. > :23:29.define him as being functional. One level is allies and partners and
:23:30. > :23:34.another level, other countries in the world. A glorious way to not
:23:35. > :23:40.answer a question! You can barely tell us if his instincts are
:23:41. > :23:45.isolationist or interventionist, extraordinary. These concepts
:23:46. > :23:50.basically our old concepts, look at liberal democracies across the
:23:51. > :23:54.world, it is difficult to say if the country or presidency or
:23:55. > :24:01.administration are fully interventionist fully isolationist.
:24:02. > :24:07.There may be areas where a democracy may not decide to go and other
:24:08. > :24:14.instances for example, President Obama said they would not intervene
:24:15. > :24:21.any more after the war in Iraq and he has just intervened in Libya. So
:24:22. > :24:25.it is the decision-making process in the country that will decide. That
:24:26. > :24:27.will be the case with Donald Trump. Thank you very much for talking to
:24:28. > :24:29.us. By the time the Soviet Union
:24:30. > :24:32.disintegrated in the early '90s, it was so sclerotic and inefficient,
:24:33. > :24:35.that it was a wonder it had To many of us in the West,
:24:36. > :24:38.it's even more extraordinary that so many Russians
:24:39. > :24:40.support President Putin, You know, cracking down
:24:41. > :24:44.on the media at home and taking Well, if you want some insight
:24:45. > :24:48.into the Russian mindset, try the works of Svetlana Alexievich,
:24:49. > :24:50.who won the Nobel Prize Her new book, Second Hand Time,
:24:51. > :25:00.has just been published in English. It's an exploration of the collapse
:25:01. > :25:03.of the Soviet Union and the psychological
:25:04. > :25:05.effects of that event She's been speaking
:25:06. > :25:16.to Gabriel Gatehouse. Only a soggy can understand another
:25:17. > :25:22.Soviet person. I would never talk to anyone else. -- only associate.
:25:23. > :25:26.Svetlana Alexievich is a collector of other people's stories, a
:25:27. > :25:32.chronicler of the life and death of the Soviet Union. Svetlana
:25:33. > :25:36.Alexievich is from Belarus, one of the 15 states that emerged out of
:25:37. > :25:42.the ashes of the USSR. She's very much a Soviet writer. Her lifelong
:25:43. > :25:49.obsession has been to probe the psychological effect of the collapse
:25:50. > :25:53.of the Soviet empire on its people. I do not know how I'm going to
:25:54. > :25:57.survive, what should I hang onto a when I close my eyes I see him lying
:25:58. > :26:05.there in the Coffin. But we were so happy. Why did he decide that death
:26:06. > :26:11.was a beautiful thing? The Nobel committee called her work polyphonic
:26:12. > :26:15.writing, her books are made up of hundreds of interviews, collected
:26:16. > :26:20.and edited over a period of years. It is nonfiction, but in this
:26:21. > :27:14.decision of the great Tolstoy novel. -- in the tradition.
:27:15. > :27:21.Svetlana Alexievich, her work focuses on the events that preceded
:27:22. > :27:27.and precipitated the collapse of the Soviet Union, Afghanistan, Chernobyl
:27:28. > :27:31.and in her latest work, Second Hand Time, the trauma of the collapse
:27:32. > :27:37.itself. We are the ones who went to the camps, who piled up the corpses
:27:38. > :27:43.during the war, who dug through the nuclear waste in Chernobyl with our
:27:44. > :27:51.bare hands. We sit atop the ruins of socialism like it is the aftermath
:27:52. > :27:58.of war. We are run and defeated. Our language is the language of
:27:59. > :28:02.suffering. Svetlana Alexievich is no apologist
:28:03. > :28:05.for the Communist regime but her books are infused with a deep sense
:28:06. > :28:11.of empathy for people who sold way of life suddenly disappeared. --
:28:12. > :28:46.whose whole way of life. In five years everything can change
:28:47. > :28:52.in Russia. In 200, nothing. The 1990s were turbulent times.
:28:53. > :28:55.Russia ditched Communism and got capitalism instead, all the glitz of
:28:56. > :29:00.the free market. But for most it was a time of economic catastrophe. It
:29:01. > :29:02.was freedom but not the freedom they had hoped for, materially or
:29:03. > :29:29.psychologically. We dream and meanwhile we lived our
:29:30. > :29:35.Soviet lives by a unified set of rules that applied to everyone.
:29:36. > :29:40.Someone stands on the podium, he is lying, everyone applauds. Everyone
:29:41. > :29:46.knows that he is lying and he knows that they know that he is lying.
:29:47. > :30:49.Still he says all that stuff and enjoys the applause.
:30:50. > :30:53.For Svetlana Alexievich, perestroika was a once in a generation
:30:54. > :31:15.opportunity that she says has now vanished.
:31:16. > :31:21.There was a moment before Vladimir Putin's return to the presidency for
:31:22. > :31:26.a third term where it looked like the spirit perestroika had returned.
:31:27. > :31:30.Thousands came out into the streets in the biggest demonstrations since
:31:31. > :31:34.the 1990s, but the protests fizzled out, and not just because of the
:31:35. > :31:40.riot police. Do you really think the only thing holding all this together
:31:41. > :31:46.is fear? The police with their clubs? You're wrong. The victim and
:31:47. > :31:51.the executioner have an agreement. That's something left over from
:31:52. > :32:00.Communist times. There is a silent pact, a contract, a great unspoken
:32:01. > :32:05.agreement. The people understand everything, but they keep quiet. In
:32:06. > :32:08.exchange, they want decent salaries, the ability to buy at least a used
:32:09. > :32:26.Audi. Democracy - that's funny word in
:32:27. > :32:35.Russian. Putin, the Democrat. That's our shortest joke.
:32:36. > :32:36.Back to UK politics now. The old rule is that divided political
:32:37. > :32:42.parties can't win elections. That adage will be sorely tested
:32:43. > :32:45.at the next one as both main parties Conservative in-fighting is the more
:32:46. > :32:49.engrossing right now, Is it at the start of a long march
:32:50. > :32:53.back to Downing Street, Tomorrow the party launches
:32:54. > :32:57.a new group, called Labour Together, that sees
:32:58. > :32:59.itself as trying to plot At the helm is one of the party's
:33:00. > :33:03.big thinkers, Jon Cruddas. He wants to find a way
:33:04. > :33:05.for Labour to re-engage He'll tell us how, after we hear
:33:06. > :33:21.from our Political Editor Nick Watt. As a new dawn was breaking over
:33:22. > :33:24.London's Southbank half a generation ago, the Labour Party embarked on
:33:25. > :33:29.its longest unbroken spell in Government. The weather is more grim
:33:30. > :33:35.today, and the prospect of power seems further away than ever. After
:33:36. > :33:40.a false start, a new group has been established to try and rekindle that
:33:41. > :33:44.spirit. I had never seen a Labour Government in my lifetime. I was 17
:33:45. > :33:50.before they came to power, and in that time, I watched the north-west,
:33:51. > :33:54.where I was growing up, becoming increasingly angry and divided, with
:33:55. > :34:03.huge problems of unemployment, derelict shops in the city centre,
:34:04. > :34:06.and families really suffering. I don't want my baby to be 17 before
:34:07. > :34:09.he sees a Labour Government, and that's why I think we need to stop
:34:10. > :34:13.his long-term set of challenges and decline that the party has had. In
:34:14. > :34:17.public, Labour has engaged in something of a civil war in recent
:34:18. > :34:22.months, with endless plots to replace Jeremy Corbyn. Members of
:34:23. > :34:26.Labour Together who have been pained by the inviting agree that he is
:34:27. > :34:30.unlikely ever to be Prime Minister, but they believe that Jeremy Corbyn
:34:31. > :34:39.is here to stay, which means that the work on charting a course back
:34:40. > :34:47.to Government needs to begin now, with Labour members across the
:34:48. > :34:50.country building confidence. We need to prove that we understand the
:34:51. > :34:58.needs of managing budgets properly and working within the priorities
:34:59. > :35:05.that are set to rise. Labour Together says it is not forming a
:35:06. > :35:10.Tony Blair tribute band, but its values are from the new Labour era.
:35:11. > :35:14.The group does say that Labour became so disconnected in office
:35:15. > :35:20.that it now has its work cut out to win back the trust of voters. Labour
:35:21. > :35:26.Party members wanted something different, that lost us to make
:35:27. > :35:30.elections in a row. Jeremy has brought in hundreds of thousands of
:35:31. > :35:33.new members who are on asset under resourced they are people we can use
:35:34. > :35:38.to connect with people out there, but we don't do it by shouting at
:35:39. > :35:43.the voters but by debating with him and campaigning. We will rebuild
:35:44. > :35:48.credibility from the ground up in this party, that is how politics
:35:49. > :35:52.works. They were called champagne socialist... Labour knows the party
:35:53. > :35:57.will only secure a comfortable Commons majority if it wins back
:35:58. > :36:03.voters from the Middle England parliamentary seats, such as
:36:04. > :36:09.Stevenage. When new Labour's 1999 success was celebrated, eventually
:36:10. > :36:15.it was done in some style. Jeremy Corbyn may be a harder sell in such
:36:16. > :36:19.seats. We have a job to do to reshape the Labour Party so that it
:36:20. > :36:23.speaks to everyone across the country. Jeremy's reading on that
:36:24. > :36:28.process. You get the right person for the right moment, often, and I
:36:29. > :36:32.think Jeremy's very open approach to things will help us to reshape our
:36:33. > :36:38.party. Where we go to for the future, who knows? The new group is
:36:39. > :36:45.wholly aware of the weaknesses of Jeremy Corbyn and his predecessor as
:36:46. > :36:50.Labour leader, but it says that the period of sniping and plotting is
:36:51. > :36:53.now over. We need to get back together and focus on the people of
:36:54. > :37:01.this country and how the Labour Party makes life better for them.
:37:02. > :37:04.Sadiq Khan's in recent victory in London has encouraged the party as
:37:05. > :37:10.it works out how to chart a route back to power. David Cameron was
:37:11. > :37:13.forced to pay tribute to the new Mayor when they appeared together on
:37:14. > :37:20.the campaign trail. London is not Great Britain. Winning back the
:37:21. > :37:26.country's cautious voters may be a far harder challenge.
:37:27. > :37:32.I spoke to Jon Cruddas, who is leading the Labour Together group
:37:33. > :37:36.that launches tomorrow. He is on the sunny West coast of Ireland, where
:37:37. > :37:39.he is having a breakfast Jon Cruddas, does Labour need another
:37:40. > :37:47.group to pontificate on the fate of the party? We have had various
:37:48. > :37:51.groups. If you had as many votes as groups, you would be on your way to
:37:52. > :37:56.victory. I don't look at it like that. I think it is healthy and a
:37:57. > :38:01.positive contribution for the future of the party. We needed because we
:38:02. > :38:08.have had two terrible election defeats, so all ideas need put into
:38:09. > :38:12.the mix in a spirit of goodwill and pluralism. I think it will make a
:38:13. > :38:16.positive contribution in the next few years. People are saying that
:38:17. > :38:20.Jeremy Corbyn isn't going anywhere before the next election. Do you
:38:21. > :38:24.agree with that? Is he potentially not going to be leader by the time
:38:25. > :38:28.of the next election? I don't think he's going anywhere. The results of
:38:29. > :38:32.a few weeks ago have put paid to some of the simplistic assumptions
:38:33. > :38:41.of leadership challengers. I think we have to make contributions to the
:38:42. > :38:44.future of the party. We are duty bound to do so, and we should
:38:45. > :38:47.respect Jeremy's mandate and the office of the leader of the Labour
:38:48. > :38:50.Party. There is a gap between the voters and Jeremy Corbyn.
:38:51. > :38:53.Emigration, the economy, welfare, these are things were Jeremy Corbyn
:38:54. > :38:58.and his supporters, who will keep him that, are in a very different
:38:59. > :39:09.place to a lot of people thought of as corn Labour voters. I think that
:39:10. > :39:12.is right. -- call Labour voters. We have a few years to work through a
:39:13. > :39:17.positive policy programme. You can see of the last few months that they
:39:18. > :39:20.are beginning to tighten their operation around the leadership of
:39:21. > :39:26.the party. I think there are grounds for optimism. Your analysis is that
:39:27. > :39:30.Jeremy Corbyn is 1 million miles from the people who need to vote for
:39:31. > :39:34.you, if that is the case, tell me one reason why you will close that
:39:35. > :39:39.gap and win the next election. I don't know if we will win the next
:39:40. > :39:42.election, I just think that everyone in the party should make a positive
:39:43. > :39:46.contribution to the future of the party. I know the difficulties we
:39:47. > :39:51.face. Arguably, we have had the worst defeat in our history. I don't
:39:52. > :39:56.think I am being overly optimistic. I am saying we need to positively
:39:57. > :39:59.contribute to the future. We need to talk about Europe a little bit,
:40:00. > :40:10.because there was an interesting poll this morning that indicated
:40:11. > :40:13.that something like 45% of Labour voters were confused, really, as to
:40:14. > :40:15.what the party's position was in the forthcoming referendum. Does that
:40:16. > :40:19.surprise you, that people basically don't know where the party stands on
:40:20. > :40:24.this issue? Not at all. If you come to my constituency in east London,
:40:25. > :40:30.you would have a lot of conflicting views about where the party stands.
:40:31. > :40:35.There is a long way to go. It will be a turbulent few weeks. I see from
:40:36. > :40:39.the opinion polls that the Brexit case is growing, it seems, in terms
:40:40. > :40:44.of the supported is getting in the country, so we will see how it all
:40:45. > :40:48.shakes down. It doesn't surprise me. You are not surprised that people
:40:49. > :40:53.don't know where the party stands on what is such an important issue?
:40:54. > :40:57.That is a pretty poor state of affairs, isn't it, if people are
:40:58. > :41:01.confused about that? I am not surprised about some of the opinion
:41:02. > :41:05.polling we are seeing on the European question. It is not to say
:41:06. > :41:09.that the Labour Party is not united in support of remaining in, it is
:41:10. > :41:14.just to say that there is a lot of confusion out there about the Labour
:41:15. > :41:20.position. Can I ask where you are on the EU? A lot of the public
:41:21. > :41:23.confusion might be because a lot of Labour people seem confused. Are you
:41:24. > :41:30.clear about your opinion on how to vote in the referendum? Yes. I will
:41:31. > :41:35.be voting, I think, to stay in. I think we have heard enough about the
:41:36. > :41:37.democratic reform of Europe. We haven't heard enough about
:41:38. > :41:42.challenging the corporate stitch up, but to me, it is such a big bet to
:41:43. > :41:47.leave that I will be voting in favour. You really don't sound
:41:48. > :41:53.terribly sure, with respect. You said you think you will vote to
:41:54. > :41:58.stay. Do you not know? Yes, I do know how I will vote. I will vote in
:41:59. > :42:06.favour of remaining. If you could have the status quo or we leave,
:42:07. > :42:11.you, Jon Cruddas, would vote to? It is a false choice. It is not a
:42:12. > :42:15.politician's answer, but I want to see the positive case for staying on
:42:16. > :42:23.with a much more aggressive reform agenda. That is what I think you
:42:24. > :42:26.will see put out over the next few weeks by John McDonnell and Jeremy
:42:27. > :42:31.Corbyn, and I think it will be welcome across the country and will
:42:32. > :42:38.strengthen the case to remain. Jon Cruddas, nice to talk to you. That
:42:39. > :42:47.interview, brought to you by the Irish tourist board! That is all for