:00:00. > :00:00.Tonight, Michael Gove tells us people have had
:00:00. > :00:08.enough of the experts, as he makes his case
:00:09. > :00:24.I am sorry, you have had your day, unelected, unaccountable elite. I am
:00:25. > :00:28.afraid it is time to SAQ fired, we are going to back control. -- time
:00:29. > :00:33.Has his hour in the sun made the case for Brexit
:00:34. > :00:37.A highly sexualised, toxic environment, where bullying was rife
:00:38. > :00:41.As the inquest into the death of a soldier at Deepcut Barracks
:00:42. > :00:44.concludes, we ask if the Army simply couldn't handle women.
:00:45. > :00:46.Lord Dannatt, former head of the Army, joins us live.
:00:47. > :00:56.Tom Keneally, the Booker Prize-winning author who brought
:00:57. > :01:03.This time, a revisionist take on Napoleon Bonaparte.
:01:04. > :01:15.Josephine once commented on it, that she went to the wardrobe and found
:01:16. > :01:17.items of clothing missing. So he is a Frenchman, he tried it all, I
:01:18. > :01:27.Was this the week when something in the EU waters shifted?
:01:28. > :01:29.When all those who'd quietly thought the Remain camp would emerge
:01:30. > :01:31.unambiguously triumphant suddenly got a sense of something stirring
:01:32. > :01:38.Something feels different at the end of this week.
:01:39. > :01:43.But it's a sense that the Out camp have found their footing -
:01:44. > :01:45.on immigration, on sovereignty perhaps.
:01:46. > :01:47.Tonight, Michael Gove - for the Out campaign -
:01:48. > :01:50.faced Sky News, and an audience of voters hungry for answers
:01:51. > :01:56.Our political man David Grossman was watching close up.
:01:57. > :01:58.It's supposedly a presage of the end of days -
:01:59. > :02:05.David Cameron and Michael Gove were once the closest of friends.
:02:06. > :02:11.For the next three weeks, they're on opposite sides
:02:12. > :02:13.of the referendum contest that could presage the end of days
:02:14. > :02:29.Today, it was Michael Gove's turn to sit where his 1's best friend for
:02:30. > :02:35.ever sat yesterday. He was first as the bout the economy if he supported
:02:36. > :02:38.the case for Brexit and then about friendly foreign leaders who
:02:39. > :02:43.supported it. We have gone into battle with these
:02:44. > :02:47.people, give me one. You cannot name one, can you? I will give you a half
:02:48. > :02:51.for Donald Trump. One of the things about Donald Trump
:02:52. > :02:55.and all of these people is that they do not have a vote in this
:02:56. > :03:00.referendum. The people in this audience and watching at home have a
:03:01. > :03:03.vote and my view is when you hear foreign leaders and politicians, do
:03:04. > :03:06.not pay attention to what they say but what they do and the truth is
:03:07. > :03:12.that Barack Obama would never accept a court in Mexico decreeing the law
:03:13. > :03:18.in the United States. Michael Gove was asked about possible job losses
:03:19. > :03:23.which the Remain sites they will follow Brexit. I know myself on my
:03:24. > :03:29.own background that the European Union, it depresses employment and
:03:30. > :03:32.it destroys jobs. My father had if fishing business in Aberdeen
:03:33. > :03:36.destroyed by the European Union and the Common fisheries policy. The
:03:37. > :03:40.European Union has hollowed out communities across this country. It
:03:41. > :03:43.has also contributed to lower salaries for working people and it
:03:44. > :03:47.has also ensured that young people in this country do not have the
:03:48. > :03:51.opportunities to get the entry-level jobs we heard about last night. You
:03:52. > :03:58.can say that their concerns do not matter. I did not say that. You said
:03:59. > :04:04.a majority... You claimed that your father was an example... You are on
:04:05. > :04:09.the side of the elites, I am on the side of the people. Meanwhile, the
:04:10. > :04:14.Chancellor was on duty for the Remain campaign visiting JP Morgan,
:04:15. > :04:20.a bank that helped crush the world's financial system. The CEO makes $27
:04:21. > :04:25.million a year, yes, that is right, he was there to warn against Brexit.
:04:26. > :04:31.Although at first, he sounded like he was arguing for it. I love the UK
:04:32. > :04:40.and Britain even though I am an American -- I am an American patriot
:04:41. > :04:44.and I... They were the only people standing against the terror of Nazi
:04:45. > :04:49.is, the British people, and the world owes them a great debt of
:04:50. > :04:53.gratitude. As the Chancellor perhaps wondered where this was going, Mr
:04:54. > :04:57.Diamond got to the point, telling his employees in the event of
:04:58. > :05:00.leaving the EU, they may have to leave some operations out of the UK
:05:01. > :05:05.and he did not know how many he would be forced to fire. At a
:05:06. > :05:09.Brexit, we cannot do it all here. We have to start planning for that. I
:05:10. > :05:15.do not know if it means 1,000, 2,000, as many as 4,000 jobs, it
:05:16. > :05:21.would be all around the UK. Mr Gove dismissed these concerns. The final
:05:22. > :05:25.question from the studio audience was about himself. You considering a
:05:26. > :05:30.leadership bid? That is the leadership question! I am absolutely
:05:31. > :05:33.not. The one thing I can tell you if there are a lot of talented people
:05:34. > :05:41.who could be Prime Minister after David Cameron would count me out.
:05:42. > :05:47.APPLAUSE. These days, Michael Gove sometimes dresses like this, but 11
:05:48. > :05:51.years ago as one of the first MPs to support David Cameron's leadership,
:05:52. > :05:55.he was dressed in a bit like a beatnik. I think David Cameron is
:05:56. > :06:00.the person who most adeptly has his finger on contemporary Britain's
:06:01. > :06:02.policy. We shall see which of the two has his finger on Britain's
:06:03. > :06:05.polls in three weeks' time. Joining us tonight:
:06:06. > :06:07.Alastair Campbell, once Tony Blair's Dia Chakravarty, an Outter,
:06:08. > :06:11.and political director Although she is here
:06:12. > :06:32.speaking in her own right. Did Michael Gove speak for you when
:06:33. > :06:37.he spoke about getting away from experts and the elites? That was
:06:38. > :06:41.interesting and I do agree. Most of the Remain so far, it has been very
:06:42. > :06:47.establishment. The establishment is saying we need to remain within the
:06:48. > :06:50.EU. The other thing that resonated is the control issue. Economic
:06:51. > :06:55.suspect you are the on both sides and I like the idea of taking back
:06:56. > :06:59.control and that will motivate me. You work with economics, do you like
:07:00. > :07:05.having a man who says, I do not need to name a single economist? It has
:07:06. > :07:09.been speculative on both sides. Does anybody understand who is saying
:07:10. > :07:14.what as far as economic is concerned on either side? It will be uncertain
:07:15. > :07:18.whatever we do because that is the nature of the world we live in.
:07:19. > :07:24.These people now coming out and saying, economic is going to be
:07:25. > :07:30.destroyed if we leave the EU, better record is not great, is it? Do you
:07:31. > :07:35.agree with what I said at the beginning of the evening, the sense
:07:36. > :07:40.that something has shifted? Remain is not as confident as they were two
:07:41. > :07:44.weirs -- two weeks ago? In any case pained you should stay focused until
:07:45. > :07:48.the end on your arguments and I do not believe Michael Gove has pushed
:07:49. > :07:52.forward in the way you suggest -- in any campaign. This is the biggest
:07:53. > :07:57.decision any of us will take in our lifetime, it is like several general
:07:58. > :08:02.elections of decision-making. It is right people take an interest and
:08:03. > :08:05.may be that some people are confused and undecided. But for the
:08:06. > :08:10.politicians, they have to keep going with the main demons. I have always
:08:11. > :08:15.thought from the beginning, do not take anything for granted. -- the
:08:16. > :08:17.main arguments. When you have unleashed the forces involved in
:08:18. > :08:23.this referendum, we are seeing a deliberate attempt by one Tory
:08:24. > :08:29.politician to get rid of another. That is confusing things for the
:08:30. > :08:33.Labour Party. You are not talking about Michael Gove? I think it is
:08:34. > :08:37.sad that has happened but it happens when you have a referendum. You
:08:38. > :08:41.cannot always control... David Cameron announced the referendum in
:08:42. > :08:46.very soon -- very different circumstances to what we have got
:08:47. > :08:49.now. The big arguments Cameron is putting forward and Jeremy Corbyn
:08:50. > :08:55.and the Trade Union Bill is... But they have done it and done it. They
:08:56. > :09:00.have to keep doing it. We all watch programmes like this and we see
:09:01. > :09:04.newspapers, how can there be millions of people still undecided?
:09:05. > :09:12.Still thinking! We can talk to one of them. You honestly undecided? He
:09:13. > :09:16.has a good device for his column! Thank you. I have always been a
:09:17. > :09:20.passionate Eurosceptic and I do not believe that means you have to
:09:21. > :09:24.leave. They are not the same thing. What has happened this last week has
:09:25. > :09:29.been interesting because a couple of polls have showed a switch, even the
:09:30. > :09:34.pollsters do not trust them. It is very unreliable. I believe we will
:09:35. > :09:39.vote to stay but that is a different matter. It is curious a couple of
:09:40. > :09:43.polls changes the temperature of the debate. It is fairly clear two
:09:44. > :09:51.things have happened. Reject the has not worked. I believe that. Before
:09:52. > :09:55.that interview, it showed on two crucial issues, people were not
:09:56. > :10:00.worried about the money if they got the control on the immigration
:10:01. > :10:07.right. So the economy is now my work than immigration? Immigration is
:10:08. > :10:11.playing higher. That is economic. It has been really confusing, nobody
:10:12. > :10:14.can tell us the implications. Your own campaigning is focusing now
:10:15. > :10:20.solidly on immigration, they have made that decision and it seems to
:10:21. > :10:24.be working. I am not a part of the official campaign. I am not
:10:25. > :10:27.pretending to speak for them but in your name, you happy and comfortable
:10:28. > :10:33.with that? It does not matter to what Nigel Farage Mr Gove says, this
:10:34. > :10:38.is a really big decision. I cannot decide the future of my country
:10:39. > :10:42.based on who is supporting which campaign because it is a very
:10:43. > :10:49.confused pool of people, made really, really conflicting
:10:50. > :10:55.bedfellows. Suddenly you have JP Morgan and the unions on the same
:10:56. > :11:02.side. The America bank accent was an own goal! He has got an own view and
:11:03. > :11:07.he can go on television, he has gone beyond that. If you are a Royal
:11:08. > :11:13.David Cameron supporting Tory, a loyal Jeremy Corbyn supporting
:11:14. > :11:18.Labour person, Tim Farron, the Greens, if you follow your leaders,
:11:19. > :11:23.it is a landslide for In, but it is not happening. Because most of the
:11:24. > :11:27.thinking that matters at the moment is not going on inside the bubble.
:11:28. > :11:31.The reason I am, I do not think anything has moved, but the reason I
:11:32. > :11:37.may be more worried than I was is because I think that all this
:11:38. > :11:41.economic heavy artillery is being pounded out and I do not agree with
:11:42. > :11:47.Simon, you have to keep going with big messages because they have that
:11:48. > :11:51.element of truth. It has not stopped these more emotional arguments. For
:11:52. > :11:53.me, the In campaign has got to get a bit more emotional and show the
:11:54. > :11:58.fight, show that this really matters. In the end, this is about
:11:59. > :12:03.people going out and persuading other people. I have to persuade him
:12:04. > :12:08.if I can and find other people and persuade them and it is not going to
:12:09. > :12:11.happen inside the studios. Philosophically, what is this about?
:12:12. > :12:17.David Cameron faced an audience yesterday not just asking about the
:12:18. > :12:22.EU referendum but Sadiq Khan and nurses, putting their leader on the
:12:23. > :12:30.spot. Is this about a metropolitan bubble burst and haves and
:12:31. > :12:34.have-nots? If you go out to the public, they will say what they
:12:35. > :12:38.think about you. What they think about you, that is always the danger
:12:39. > :12:46.of a referendum. What is interesting here is that this is what this poll
:12:47. > :12:51.shows, people do not always vote by their pocketbook. They vote for
:12:52. > :12:55.vague concepts like national identity, control and sovereignty
:12:56. > :12:59.and Mr Gove shrewdly went on and on about taking back control. If you
:13:00. > :13:03.say take back control, almost anybody wants to do that, it is a
:13:04. > :13:13.good line. If you got behind that, there is a cloud of immigration, it
:13:14. > :13:17.is quite potent message. I still think a lot of Remain people are not
:13:18. > :13:21.telling the pollsters what they want to do. David Cameron is constantly
:13:22. > :13:28.telling people it is about their pocketbook and it is not. I do not
:13:29. > :13:31.feel comfortable defending David Cameron, strange bedfellows! But he
:13:32. > :13:35.is also saying it is about what sort of country we are and they worry
:13:36. > :13:40.when I see Michael Gove who is one of the more intelligence Tory
:13:41. > :13:43.ministers saying it does not matter what experts think and what people
:13:44. > :13:48.said who know what is going on in the world. The only reason he says
:13:49. > :13:52.that, if he had big employers coming out for Leave, he would say that
:13:53. > :13:58.their opinion mattered. I think there is massive responsibility on
:13:59. > :14:03.individuals to inform ourselves. Is that what they want in the Leave
:14:04. > :14:09.camp? That there are no experts? Who do we believe? Who do you believe?
:14:10. > :14:12.It is not about the Leave campaign or the Remain campaign, what they
:14:13. > :14:18.want any more, it is about the ordinary person. It is a more subtle
:14:19. > :14:22.question. Is it better for the country to say we have not got
:14:23. > :14:27.experts and economists? Is that the message people want? The experts
:14:28. > :14:31.typically come from the establishment, that is the point.
:14:32. > :14:37.This is the idea that Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are not part of the
:14:38. > :14:41.establishment! If you follow Jeremy Corbyn's position. All his life, he
:14:42. > :14:46.has been antiestablishment. He has been Eurosceptic. He was in favour
:14:47. > :14:49.of Brexit and suddenly you find themselves very much part of the
:14:50. > :14:59.establishment as Leader of the Opposition. This is the denigration
:15:00. > :15:03.of anybody who does not have that opinion, really. Both sides do it.
:15:04. > :15:13.Yes, I agree. There wasn't a single economist for
:15:14. > :15:19.Margaret Thatcher. Totting up how many experts you have one each side
:15:20. > :15:24.is pure politics, pretty vacuous. When you have so many people saying
:15:25. > :15:28.we'll be worse off if we take this decision, you can't just say to them
:15:29. > :15:34.all, you are all part of project fear, some of them, in the end...
:15:35. > :15:37.Quickly respond. They may well be experts but these very people have
:15:38. > :15:42.got it wrong over and over in the past, how can we trust them?
:15:43. > :15:44.The question of why and exactly how four young recruits died
:15:45. > :15:47.at the Deepcut army base is one that, by any stretch
:15:48. > :15:48.of the imagination, should have been answered
:15:49. > :15:52.Today, an inquest into the death of 18-year-old Cheryl James,
:15:53. > :15:54.found with a single gunshot wound two decades ago, ascertained
:15:55. > :15:56.she killed herself - a verdict her long-suffering
:15:57. > :16:00.But crucially, the coroner today unearthed a culture
:16:01. > :16:06.Highly sexualised, chaotic, alcohol-fuelled and toxic.
:16:07. > :16:09.A place where bullying was rife and young recruits had nowhere
:16:10. > :16:15.The coroner declared that staff at the camp had failed in their duty
:16:16. > :16:20.The British Army has had many great days,
:16:21. > :16:31.She joined the Army in 1995, did well in training and was then
:16:32. > :16:42.21 years ago, private Cheryl James was on guard duty here at Deepcut
:16:43. > :16:49.There was a shot and her body was found dead.
:16:50. > :16:51.Her family have maintained to this day that Surrey Police
:16:52. > :16:53.and the Royal Military Police concluded far too quickly
:16:54. > :17:00.And so, as a result of that critical time, there was no proper
:17:01. > :17:09.In 2014, they won their battle for a fresh inquest
:17:10. > :17:13.That inquest reported today, but the result was not
:17:14. > :17:17.Coroner Brian Barker found that Cheryl James died
:17:18. > :17:23.Speaking after the verdict, her father, Des James,
:17:24. > :17:25.politely and respectfully disagreed with the coroner's
:17:26. > :17:35.While we welcome the coroner's verdict, the coroner's findings
:17:36. > :17:37.today on the environment at Deepcut, we are deeply saddened
:17:38. > :17:46.Having sat through all of the evidence ourselves,
:17:47. > :17:48.listened carefully to every word, read every statement
:17:49. > :18:00.In short, it is our opinion that it did not lead to this verdict.
:18:01. > :18:03.Now, 20 years ago, in the first inquest, the verdict was open.
:18:04. > :18:06.Now, clearly, the family are very unhappy and what we are hearing
:18:07. > :18:09.from them is a concern that there was no strong
:18:10. > :18:15.So why did the coroner find it that way?
:18:16. > :18:18.But the inquest also raised wider issues about the culture at Deepcut
:18:19. > :18:26.In terms of the way in which the Army deals
:18:27. > :18:29.with recruits and trainees, things are very different now.
:18:30. > :18:33.They are right to say that, they are entitled to say that.
:18:34. > :18:35.Where they really still have a problem is
:18:36. > :18:39.This coroner referred to it, other coroners have referred
:18:40. > :18:41.to it in other cases, and in other criminal cases,
:18:42. > :18:43.and it remains the case that the Army really
:18:44. > :18:50.In 2014, 24,000 serving men and women were polled and 90%
:18:51. > :18:53.of them thought the Army had an overly sexualised culture,
:18:54. > :18:56.and 39% of those people had had an upsetting incident.
:18:57. > :19:02.It is way beyond the realm of other workplaces and this is a real issue.
:19:03. > :19:04.Tonight, a BBC Two documentary broadcast testimony from other
:19:05. > :19:14.A Corporal who was one of my instructors asked me to go
:19:15. > :19:17.back to the female accommodation, so I went back and I walked
:19:18. > :19:27.And he called me from the shower room.
:19:28. > :19:42.And he pushed me up against the wall, And he started kissing me.
:19:43. > :19:46.And then he put his hand up my skirt.
:19:47. > :19:58.And with his other hands, started fondling my
:19:59. > :20:09.One thing I'd learned from training is that you don't talk back
:20:10. > :20:17.to your NCOs, and you don't fight back.
:20:18. > :20:20.The tragedy of private Cheryl James is not just a story
:20:21. > :20:25.It also shines a light on what its critics say
:20:26. > :20:33.is the British Army's failure to face up to its darker side.
:20:34. > :20:38.Lord Dannatt, former head of the Army joins us now.
:20:39. > :20:44.After 20 years, two inquests, the family still don't feel
:20:45. > :20:47.That's the real problem here, isnt it?
:20:48. > :20:54.Of course it is, the first thing to say is, one has huge sympathy and
:20:55. > :21:00.sorrow for the tragedy of Cheryl James losing her life. One expresses
:21:01. > :21:05.huge sympathy towards her family and the families of the other three
:21:06. > :21:08.soldiers who lost their lives at Deepcut 15, 20 years ago. It's a
:21:09. > :21:13.tragedy and nothing will ever replace Cheryl James's life and the
:21:14. > :21:18.life of her family all one can say is it an ongoing tragedy for them.
:21:19. > :21:23.One can say more than that, one can say they don't feel they've had the
:21:24. > :21:29.answers to this now. What has to happen for them to get that? It's
:21:30. > :21:34.difficult for them not to feel they've had the answers, I
:21:35. > :21:40.understand entirely. Of course this corona conducted his inquest of the
:21:41. > :21:44.best of usability and came up with the conclusion he did. There's no
:21:45. > :21:51.getting away from the fact all was not well by a long degree at Deepcut
:21:52. > :21:54.20 years ago and Nicholas Blake QC conducted an investigation into
:21:55. > :21:57.thousands six into Deepcut and the army accepted a lot of
:21:58. > :22:01.responsibility things were not right. The decision was taken to
:22:02. > :22:05.close Deepcut in the intervening years. Standards have improved, the
:22:06. > :22:09.budgetary regime has been such it hasn't been possible to close
:22:10. > :22:13.Deepcut, and things have changed. There's no getting away that things
:22:14. > :22:18.are not right and I would say this to anybody listening to this and
:22:19. > :22:22.what the shocking programme broadcast at 9pm on BBC Two, if I
:22:23. > :22:26.can finish this point, that watched that programme, if there are things
:22:27. > :22:30.that happen to them, allegations they want to put forward, they must
:22:31. > :22:33.come forward to the police, these must be investigated, because where
:22:34. > :22:38.things have not been done like they need to be investigated, people
:22:39. > :22:42.investigated if necessary. The families as you know are calling for
:22:43. > :22:47.a public inquiry and you'll be aware you were the former head of the
:22:48. > :22:51.army. You must look back at some of this, it must have crossed your
:22:52. > :22:56.desk, didn't you think, don't you wish, you had got to the bottom of
:22:57. > :23:02.that? Two or three things: this has been investigated more than once,
:23:03. > :23:04.Surrey Police investigated what the Royal Military Police investigated,
:23:05. > :23:11.a case under investigation for some time. I accept entirely the Army has
:23:12. > :23:16.found it difficult to deal with allegations of sexual harassment and
:23:17. > :23:20.bullying, bullying is endemic. Should there be a public inquiry? I
:23:21. > :23:23.think there should be, it the only practical and reasonable response to
:23:24. > :23:27.this because people have a right to know. I stress again if there are
:23:28. > :23:32.individuals who went through training at Deepcut and elsewhere
:23:33. > :23:35.and believe they suffered bullying or sexual harassment that hasn't
:23:36. > :23:40.been investigated, they should complain, if they are serving to the
:23:41. > :23:44.service police, or to the civilian police, these things will be... It's
:23:45. > :23:47.really important. You've just made that point before. It sounds as
:23:48. > :23:52.though the army still has a problem with women. It started to recruit
:23:53. > :24:00.women, yet it didn't give them any duty of care, wouldn't allow them to
:24:01. > :24:04.get to padres when they needed them, it failed the women who needed help
:24:05. > :24:09.and it hasn't changed much today, you heard from the lawyer. I have to
:24:10. > :24:13.reject that it hasn't changed very much, the position described in the
:24:14. > :24:19.programme at 9pm was quite appalling, that was 20 years ago.
:24:20. > :24:26.Since Nicholas Blake QC investigated Deepcut in 2006, Ofsted inspect all
:24:27. > :24:31.training establishments. The survey is from 2014. You have to allow me
:24:32. > :24:35.to finish. Ofsted inspector or training establishments and in the
:24:36. > :24:39.last round of inspections all were found to be either good or
:24:40. > :24:42.excellent, things have changed. There's always room for improvement,
:24:43. > :24:46.there can be no covering up if people have felt they've been abused
:24:47. > :24:50.or wrongly treated, they must complain, it must be investigated.
:24:51. > :24:54.Wrongdoers must be brought to book even 20 years later, it's really
:24:55. > :24:58.important. If parents send young people to the Army, they must have
:24:59. > :25:01.confidence the Army will look after them and not abuse them. It's really
:25:02. > :25:04.critical and what makes our soldiers really good. We can't accept poorer
:25:05. > :25:16.standards from anyone. Lord Danek. We've been talking a lot
:25:17. > :25:19.about Europe, in case you hadn't noticed, but tonight,
:25:20. > :25:21.we take you back to the man who had designs on the continent some 200
:25:22. > :25:24.years before the EU - Boris Johnson, you might recall,
:25:25. > :25:27.got rather a mixed press for comparing those who ran Brussels
:25:28. > :25:30.to Napoleon and Hitler. Now the Booker-Prize winning
:25:31. > :25:32.Australian novelist Thomas Keneally casts Bonaparte, at least,
:25:33. > :25:34.in a different light. In his new novel, 'Napoleon's Last
:25:35. > :25:36.Island', the Emperor's final exile on St Helena,
:25:37. > :25:38.in the South Atlantic, becomes a metaphor for the way
:25:39. > :25:40.unwanted foreigners are treated by Keneally's fellow countrymen,
:25:41. > :25:42.and by others. He's been talking to our
:25:43. > :25:44.Culture Editor, Stephen Smith. It's Boris's bogeyman,
:25:45. > :25:52.Napoleon Bonaparte, Boney ended his days
:25:53. > :25:56.on the inhospitable bluff They chose this island
:25:57. > :26:02.in the South Atlantic to put him, a magnificent
:26:03. > :26:03.place for detention. Only two real beaches
:26:04. > :26:17.from which anyone could escape. The Emperor lived in a kind of grand
:26:18. > :26:20.flat belonging to the East India He befriended the company's agent,
:26:21. > :26:24.a Brit, and his family. A friendship which
:26:25. > :26:25.eventually cost them dear. kind of exile, in
:26:26. > :26:34.Australia, under a cloud. It was characteristic of the way
:26:35. > :26:37.19th-century Britain hived off its undesirables
:26:38. > :26:41.to Australia. Not only the convicts,
:26:42. > :26:44.not only the working class, but also the unsatisfactory members
:26:45. > :26:50.of the bourgeoisie and gentry. At the London library,
:26:51. > :26:54.at ungodly o'clock this morning, Tom Keneally recalls
:26:55. > :26:56.stumbling upon Napoleon's Aussie Is there any hard evidence Napoleon
:26:57. > :27:05.ever wore women's clothing? Because he does in
:27:06. > :27:07.the book, doesn't he? Yes, there is a rumour
:27:08. > :27:11.he liked dressing She went to the wardrobe and found
:27:12. > :27:24.items of clothing missing. He's a Frenchman, he
:27:25. > :27:31.tried it all, I think. Some reviewers have seen
:27:32. > :27:34.in the figure of Napoleon perhaps a metaphor for what
:27:35. > :27:37.Australia and many others do with Yes, a number of us
:27:38. > :27:48.have been campaigning for an end to the detention system
:27:49. > :27:52.in Australia, which is a de facto Punishing people for seeking asylum,
:27:53. > :27:56.which is not a crime And I think the same
:27:57. > :27:59.tendency is occurring here But after all they are a problem
:28:00. > :28:14.we partly made by our reckless And we're not, perhaps, the main
:28:15. > :28:26.engines, the tyrants of the main engines of expulsion, but, you know,
:28:27. > :28:29.in solving this problem, they've got Some here have advocated
:28:30. > :28:32.adopting an Australian The writer says that's fine
:28:33. > :28:38.when the normal channels work. But the normal channels
:28:39. > :28:40.of immigration, for all of us, have been swamped
:28:41. > :28:42.by the refugees of the world. We are not as kind in awarding
:28:43. > :28:44.points to people He urges Britain to beware
:28:45. > :29:00.the type of detention centre for unauthorised arrivals
:29:01. > :29:05.that they have down under. The idea of locking
:29:06. > :29:08.up will satisfy about ready percent of the population,
:29:09. > :29:14.but the other 80, you can only get them to bear it,
:29:15. > :29:16.to bear the national shame of it, if you lie
:29:17. > :29:19.about who's in there. I profited from writing books
:29:20. > :29:27.about scapegoating, so I can't sit Look at the snow, look
:29:28. > :29:35.at the snow, look at the I lost a worker, I expect
:29:36. > :29:45.to be compensated. By sheer chance, Tom Keneally heard
:29:46. > :29:47.the story of Oskar Schindler, which became his novel
:29:48. > :29:51.and Steven Spielberg's film. From a Holocaust
:29:52. > :29:53.survivor called Poldek, who was selling him
:29:54. > :29:58.a briefcase at the time. To look at a man like Poldek,
:29:59. > :30:04.a vivid man, he used to say things to Spielberg, Stephen,
:30:05. > :30:07.you can't win an Academy Awards with little furry animals, enough
:30:08. > :30:09.with the little furry animals. And you can't look at a man
:30:10. > :30:17.like that and work out why an entire regime considered that he had
:30:18. > :30:20.to have his oxygen taken away from But all racial hysteria is the great
:30:21. > :30:39.nonsense of history. Before we go, Nick Clegg solicited
:30:40. > :30:45.the ire of our loquacious former London Mayor by suggesting
:30:46. > :30:47.he was "Donald Trump It's not the first time
:30:48. > :30:53.the blonde Brexiteer has been compared to Trump and,
:30:54. > :30:55.if these images are anything to go by, it
:30:56. > :30:59.may not be the last.