:00:07. > :00:10.Tonight - as the voter registration deadline is extended, we ask
:00:11. > :00:15.what we know about the demographics of how the country will vote.
:00:16. > :00:19.We speak to the polling expert prepared to put himself on the line
:00:20. > :00:23.and call it with two weeks to go - and to Labour's Harriet Harman.
:00:24. > :00:25.And we're in Cardiff conducting our own extremely
:00:26. > :00:29.Well, I'm just wondering whether I could offer
:00:30. > :00:39.I've not voted in bureaucrats in Brussels.
:00:40. > :00:50.He basically said, "It's my business, I can do what I want."
:00:51. > :00:58.I'm going to come down there and kill you.
:00:59. > :01:00.The commons select committee hears allegations of death threats
:01:01. > :01:03.and serial lying from the men who've been at the top of BHS.
:01:04. > :01:05.We talk to the pensions minister Ros Altman.
:01:06. > :01:06.Does she understand what went wrong?
:01:07. > :01:09.An Eritraen man is extradited to Italy on allegations
:01:10. > :01:15.It's the first arrest of its kind in the migration crisis,
:01:16. > :01:18.but tonight suggestions surface they may have the wrong man.
:01:19. > :01:21.Everybody is saying this is my friend, my childhood friend.
:01:22. > :01:24.He's just a refugee from a camp in Sudan in 2015.
:01:25. > :01:41.Around this time last night - just an hour before the deadline -
:01:42. > :01:43.the crashing of the website for voter registration sent those
:01:44. > :01:46.wishing to sign up for the EU referendum poll into something
:01:47. > :01:53.Popular wisdom believes late registration favours the Remain camp
:01:54. > :01:57.- with those for Brexit long energised and already signed up.
:01:58. > :02:00.Impossible to prove of course - before the 23rd of June -
:02:01. > :02:03.but when the deadline was extended until tomorrow night,
:02:04. > :02:06.it led to voices from the Leave camp warning it was on the 'cusp
:02:07. > :02:15.This referendum is a moment when every
:02:16. > :02:18.the safe seats of a general election do not exist -
:02:19. > :02:21.and tonight, we're exploring what that means for the campaigns.
:02:22. > :02:29.First to our Political Editor, Nick Watt.
:02:30. > :02:34.Egg dramatic developments since the website crashed last night and we
:02:35. > :02:39.reported it on Newsnight. The government realised they had to grab
:02:40. > :02:43.hold of this one quickly, so we will see the introduction in Parliament
:02:44. > :02:46.of emergency secondary legislation, allowing for what you were talking
:02:47. > :02:52.about, the extension of the deadline to tomorrow night. The Leave
:02:53. > :02:56.campaign were initially suspicious, thinking it might be a ruse by the
:02:57. > :03:00.government to increase the size of the electorate to the advantage of
:03:01. > :03:07.the Remain campaign. The official vote Leave campaign had been
:03:08. > :03:15.operating on the basis of a low turnout. Aware of the danger of
:03:16. > :03:19.appearing like conspiracy theorists, they have come out and say they
:03:20. > :03:25.wholly were open this. And they have made a virtue of it saying, if you
:03:26. > :03:29.want to get turkey out the European Union, even more people can vote
:03:30. > :03:34.leave. We have a defection, we haven't had a defection in politics
:03:35. > :03:38.for some time. Doctor Sara Woollaston, the independent minded
:03:39. > :03:46.conservative MPs Totnes has announced that she is moving from
:03:47. > :03:53.vote Leave to Remain. She is unamused by the vote Leave campaign
:03:54. > :03:56.that Britain spends ?350 million a week to the European Union, the net
:03:57. > :04:02.figure is a third of that. The second reason is she says there
:04:03. > :04:06.would be a penalty on the NHS if we left because it would hit the
:04:07. > :04:10.economy and of course she is a GP. And looking back at this extension
:04:11. > :04:14.to the deadline, we don't know, but is there a sense that this would
:04:15. > :04:20.genuinely favour one side over another? What is your gut feeling?
:04:21. > :04:23.The government says it is acting entirely selflessly, and doing this
:04:24. > :04:28.to promote democracy, transparency and openness, but there is no doubt
:04:29. > :04:31.the smiles were on the Remain ministers today, because as you say
:04:32. > :04:36.they believe that if you get a higher turnout, then you are more
:04:37. > :04:40.likely to have voters who don't wake up every day thinking about the EU,
:04:41. > :04:45.they think of bread and butter, therefore they hope they are more
:04:46. > :04:49.likely to vote for Remain. It is interesting Remain have been
:04:50. > :04:53.nervous, this is why I am spending time in the north-west of England
:04:54. > :04:57.because there is a fear that in some of those natural Labour heartlands
:04:58. > :05:01.whilst we are focusing on the blue on blue showing within the
:05:02. > :05:06.Conservative Party, we are perhaps missing out on a more dangerous
:05:07. > :05:09.story for the Remain site, the inability of the Labour Party, the
:05:10. > :05:13.bread elite to get out the red grassroots. Thank you.
:05:14. > :05:19.We will hear from a senior Labour politician in a moment.
:05:20. > :05:23.But first let's get into the question of what the campaigns
:05:24. > :05:29.do know about who to target with our Policy Editor Chris Cook.
:05:30. > :05:36.Lots of elements of this campaign are ageless. Doorknocking,
:05:37. > :05:40.gladhanding, battle buses. But a referendum is not a general
:05:41. > :05:44.election. On June the 23rd, the whole nation will be one
:05:45. > :05:53.constituency. So how are the two campaigns choosing where to fight? I
:05:54. > :05:56.think this referendum has been more about globalisation than persuasion.
:05:57. > :06:01.Both campaigns have been focusing heavily on their core areas. This
:06:02. > :06:06.map shows the distribution of marginal seats that were really
:06:07. > :06:10.fought over at the 2015 general election. Scotland has loads of
:06:11. > :06:14.marginal seats. If you look down the east coast of England there are not
:06:15. > :06:20.many. In London there are a few here and there. The referendum is going
:06:21. > :06:22.to be very different. Each side will be going to areas where they think
:06:23. > :06:27.they are strongest and trying to get out the vote in this biggest
:06:28. > :06:34.numbers. So where are those numbers? Starting with the Leave campaign,
:06:35. > :06:38.most Eurosceptic areas according to one poll. The East of England, the
:06:39. > :06:46.area so neglected at the last election, is essential to the
:06:47. > :06:48.referendum. The Remain, London and Scotland in particular are
:06:49. > :06:54.absolutely critical if they are going to win. There is a literature
:06:55. > :06:58.on getting out the vote that was effectively used by President Obama
:06:59. > :07:01.and his teenager in the election which basically suggests that the
:07:02. > :07:06.tighter your operation is, the more you contact voters on the day, you
:07:07. > :07:11.can give yourself another one, two, three points by pushing voters out
:07:12. > :07:15.of their armchairs into the polling stations. This is rather tough for
:07:16. > :07:20.the main parties who are fighting in a lot of areas they have neglected
:07:21. > :07:25.for a long time. This isn't like a general election where the focus is
:07:26. > :07:28.on a handful of marginal seats. In lots of places, areas that aren't
:07:29. > :07:34.used to full pelt campaigning at a general election have got huge areas
:07:35. > :07:40.of activities going on. In some of our best areas, every household in
:07:41. > :07:45.that parliamentary constituency has been visited more than once. That
:07:46. > :07:48.probably didn't happen in a general election. You could be forgiven for
:07:49. > :07:53.finding it hard to follow this campaign. It does not help at the
:07:54. > :07:57.polls are not trusted. Academics were wrong last year, most of the
:07:58. > :08:01.forecasts were wrong ahead of the general election. The polls have not
:08:02. > :08:06.convinced most people that they have got this one nailed down. There are
:08:07. > :08:11.significant variations between phone polls and online polls, and we all
:08:12. > :08:16.mode the story of the expert who didn't see Jeremy Corbyn coming.
:08:17. > :08:20.Before that didn't see a Conservative majority government
:08:21. > :08:25.coming. And then possibly didn't see President Trump coming. So a lot of
:08:26. > :08:29.people got a lot of things wrong. Elections are getting more complex
:08:30. > :08:33.to follow anyway as campaigns get ever less national. Campaigners can
:08:34. > :08:38.now quietly tailor ads to recipients online and in the posts with greater
:08:39. > :08:41.sophistication. And it's seriously tough to get any sense of a campaign
:08:42. > :08:48.where you don't even know what arguments are being put to your
:08:49. > :08:50.neighbours. Chris Kirk, there. In the moment we will speak to Labour's
:08:51. > :08:55.former deputy leader Harriet Harman. First, Lord Hayward,
:08:56. > :08:56.a Tory psephologist who was on John Major's team
:08:57. > :09:04.in the 1992 election and predicted Tell us what you feel will happen
:09:05. > :09:07.this time round? As far as I'm concerned the polls are
:09:08. > :09:11.overestimated how close it will be. As far as I can see there are more
:09:12. > :09:17.people deviating towards Leave. If you take any particular demographic,
:09:18. > :09:21.let's say bankers, who should be overwhelmingly in favour, my
:09:22. > :09:26.conversations and say actually the banking industry, Surrey, which will
:09:27. > :09:32.should be rock-solid Remain, they are not as solid as people think.
:09:33. > :09:38.Then you've got Labour areas, they are not as solid as people would
:09:39. > :09:41.expect. But these are just conversations, and you are at odds
:09:42. > :09:45.with a lot of other pollsters. And I've been at odds on previous
:09:46. > :09:50.occasions. I started with the polls and what they are predicting. And
:09:51. > :09:54.then gone out, discussed it with other people, listened over months
:09:55. > :09:58.to what people were saying and said, how often am I speaking to somebody
:09:59. > :10:06.who is actually deviating from what should be the polling Norm? Do you
:10:07. > :10:10.see yourself as a Leave supporter? I am a Remain supporter. So in saying
:10:11. > :10:15.Leave are doing better than the polls suggest I am arguing against
:10:16. > :10:20.my own position. So where are the gaps? Who isn't showing up? You've
:10:21. > :10:24.talked about the banking community. I think it is pretty general. There
:10:25. > :10:27.are problems you are going to go on to talk about, the Labour
:10:28. > :10:31.supporters, the professional community in general. And I think
:10:32. > :10:37.the campaign has been male dominated. There's been very poor
:10:38. > :10:44.messaging, we would expect women to be much more solidly Remain because
:10:45. > :10:50.they genuinely generally vote according to pocketbook issues. Your
:10:51. > :10:55.assumption is a male dominated campaign tells what, more women to
:10:56. > :10:59.go with the male voices? And saying there is no messaging being received
:11:00. > :11:02.by large parts of the community. Whether it is the standard
:11:03. > :11:05.traditional Labour voter or the female voter, the professional
:11:06. > :11:12.photo, they are not receiving the message on economic issues. You will
:11:13. > :11:14.forgive our viewers if there is a lot of scepticism about any pollster
:11:15. > :11:19.at this point in proceedings telling them what will happen. I have a
:11:20. > :11:24.history of telling pollsters they are wrong and on this occasion I
:11:25. > :11:29.think they are wrong. The tendency is more towards Leave at the moment.
:11:30. > :11:33.It can be turned around for Remain. If the turnout is high and based on
:11:34. > :11:38.different messaging from where we are at the moment, the result may be
:11:39. > :11:43.different. One has to remember that within the next few days 20% of the
:11:44. > :11:51.population will have already voted. Could be as high as 18%. Harriet
:11:52. > :12:02.Harman, do you accept that the traditional Labour voter does not
:12:03. > :12:05.look like a Remainer or a Leaver? We have a unified position within the
:12:06. > :12:12.Labour Party. For people who vote Labour and support baby and share
:12:13. > :12:15.the principles, it is not much help to them to see Michael Gove slugging
:12:16. > :12:20.it out with David Cameron, because actually they are not interested.
:12:21. > :12:25.And their point of view is not what motivates them. And I think the
:12:26. > :12:30.problem has been that there are Labour arguments for staying in that
:12:31. > :12:35.our voters haven't been able to hear us putting across. Your voters, 45%
:12:36. > :12:43.of Labour voters said in a poll at the end of last month they were not
:12:44. > :12:46.sure of your party's position. That's not surprising bearing in
:12:47. > :12:53.mind the airwaves have been absolutely dominated by the argument
:12:54. > :12:57.within the Tory party. You think SNP supporters, Lib Dem supporters or
:12:58. > :13:00.green supporters would say that? Presumably you would know your
:13:01. > :13:05.party's position if you were an actual supporter or voter? If you
:13:06. > :13:10.look at Loughborough University research, it shows not only is it am
:13:11. > :13:15.elated by men but it is dominated by Tory men, and that is the fact of
:13:16. > :13:18.the debate so far. Therefore what we need is more ability for women to
:13:19. > :13:23.hear specific arguments that we certainly want to put forward about
:13:24. > :13:28.why it is important to stay in. And for people to hear Labour arguments
:13:29. > :13:32.because we have different arguments. For example on the health service,
:13:33. > :13:35.we think there are problems with the health service. You can't just say
:13:36. > :13:41.the Tories are too loud. People will turn round and say Labour has been
:13:42. > :13:45.nonexistent. We are saying the huge volcanic bust up in the Tory party
:13:46. > :13:50.is, not surprisingly, grabbing media attention. But if we want balance in
:13:51. > :13:53.this debate in order to help people make up their mind so that they make
:13:54. > :13:58.the sort of decision that they really want to make, the balance
:13:59. > :14:03.needs to not just be between Leave and Remain, it leads to also be
:14:04. > :14:07.between men and women and also between Labour and Tory. Our
:14:08. > :14:11.supporters are entitled to hear why we as Labour people are urging them
:14:12. > :14:15.to vote in. So for example on the health service point, Leave are
:14:16. > :14:21.saying you've got to leave if you care about the health service. We
:14:22. > :14:24.are saying actually we think the government are doing things
:14:25. > :14:28.completely wrong, so we don't agree with David Cameron on what he is
:14:29. > :14:33.doing the health service, but we say blame the government, not the EU.
:14:34. > :14:38.That point could have been made very clearly by Jeremy Corbyn if he
:14:39. > :14:43.wanted to share a Platt with David Cameron. We have been making these
:14:44. > :14:49.points, but it is difficult to get them through. When I was acting
:14:50. > :14:53.leader, I set up the Labour in campaign as a separate campaign,
:14:54. > :14:59.because I felt we needed to get our message across separately. Was it a
:15:00. > :15:05.missed opportunity? For Jeremy Corbyn to sound alongside David
:15:06. > :15:11.Cameron and say, we are sharing a platform because it is bigger than
:15:12. > :15:14.party politics. As Leader of the Labour Party, he wants to put
:15:15. > :15:19.forward Labour's arguments. I have appeared at some things with David
:15:20. > :15:24.Cameron, not because I agree with him, but because I want people to
:15:25. > :15:28.see that Labour is four in. It is important that we have separate
:15:29. > :15:33.arguments, because we have our own points of view. For example, at
:15:34. > :15:36.work, we think that the EU guaranteeing maternity pay and
:15:37. > :15:42.holiday leave, it is important that the EU does that, because we do not
:15:43. > :15:49.trust future Tory governments to not decide to repeal all of those. We
:15:50. > :15:54.have just seen Nick, who is in Salford and other areas, safe Labour
:15:55. > :15:59.seats for ages. You think these places have been ignored, or have
:16:00. > :16:05.been left off the chart? If nearly half your voters in a poll just two
:16:06. > :16:10.weeks ago don't know your party's position, that is catastrophic. It
:16:11. > :16:16.is for us to do make sure they know what our position is and why, and
:16:17. > :16:21.that they haven't been ignored. This is a different proposition. Normally
:16:22. > :16:25.it is vote for this person in this party in this area. But we've got
:16:26. > :16:30.Labour values and principles about why we want to stay in, and we need
:16:31. > :16:35.to get that across to our voters, and it is to all of us in the Labour
:16:36. > :16:38.Party to get that idea across. Thank you for coming in.
:16:39. > :16:41.Well, we know there's a divide between young and old when it comes
:16:42. > :16:43.to the suggested voting patterns of the EU.
:16:44. > :16:47.Katie Razzall took the referendum road to South Wales this week -
:16:48. > :16:52.to look at the generational divide that appears to be emergeng there.
:16:53. > :16:54.Pettigrew Bakeries in Cardiff caters to all tastes.
:16:55. > :16:56.Mixing the traditional with the modern, there's so much
:16:57. > :17:03.But when it comes to the referendum, the choice is down to in or out.
:17:04. > :17:05.So, for Newsnight's visit, we requested a twist on some
:17:06. > :17:12.of the bakery's most popular products.
:17:13. > :17:17.I'm just wondering whether I could offer
:17:18. > :17:27.Well, well, I feel democracy, really.
:17:28. > :17:29.I've not voted in bureaucrats in Brussels who I don't even know.
:17:30. > :17:32.One reason for the generational divide in this referendum may be
:17:33. > :17:36.that many young voters, like this 26-year-old artisan baker,
:17:37. > :17:39.see their identity as bound up with Europe.
:17:40. > :17:42.I've always classed myself as European, so it would be nice
:17:43. > :17:45.to still go to France and think that we are one
:17:46. > :18:01.I can't work out which one of them is lying.
:18:02. > :18:03.I can't work out which one of them's planned for the future.
:18:04. > :18:14.Whether it's in the Welsh valleys or further afield,
:18:15. > :18:17.received wisdom in this referendum is that the young are in favour
:18:18. > :18:32.In the Swansea Valley, we gathered three generations
:18:33. > :18:37.of the same family, who appeared to some up those divisions.
:18:38. > :18:40.I'm going to vote to stay in, because I see myself having
:18:41. > :18:43.a better future in the EU, with the jobs.
:18:44. > :18:49.I've never had any doubt at all.
:18:50. > :18:53.I didn't want to go in in the first place.
:18:54. > :18:56.I know that the Remain campaign had a campaign during this referendum
:18:57. > :18:59.which was "Persuade your granny onto your side".
:19:00. > :19:04.I love my youngest granddaughter very much,
:19:05. > :19:09.I've had no doubt right from the start.
:19:10. > :19:17.We are being taken over, and we are being told what to do
:19:18. > :19:25.I see myself having a better future in Europe, like if you look
:19:26. > :19:30.at things like workers' rights, immigration and free movement
:19:31. > :19:33.as well, because you look at the way things are now,
:19:34. > :19:37.it might be that I have to move into Europe to work myself one day,
:19:38. > :19:41.and it's going to be a pain if I'll have to apply for a visa with every
:19:42. > :19:45.So I think, for me and my future, it's better to stay in.
:19:46. > :19:48.And it's my generation that has to deal with the fallout if we go.
:19:49. > :19:52.I think of you all the time, Charlotte.
:19:53. > :19:54.Do you know how you're going to vote?
:19:55. > :19:59.I'm hoping that somebody's going to say something and I'm
:20:00. > :20:05.It's me that's got to pick up the pieces eventually.
:20:06. > :20:09.No offence to you guys, but, like.
:20:10. > :20:15.It's going to be me and my children that have to clean up that
:20:16. > :20:20.Because we're not part of the EU any more, so we will just be
:20:21. > :20:23.on the island by ourselves drowning, saying, help us, and the EU's
:20:24. > :20:25.going to go, no, you're not our problem any more.
:20:26. > :20:28.Are most of your friends of your age group, do you talk about it?
:20:29. > :20:32.The ones that are voting are voting to remain.
:20:33. > :20:37.A lot of young people aren't interested in things
:20:38. > :20:47.The young could keep the UK in the EU, but only if they
:20:48. > :20:51.These Cardiff students are keenly political.
:20:52. > :20:55.Their University Challenge - to get others to follow their lead.
:20:56. > :20:58.I'm Beth Button, President of NUS Wales, and I'm going to be voting
:20:59. > :21:03.I am a second year philosophy and politics student,
:21:04. > :21:10.I'm a third year history student, and I'll be voting to remain.
:21:11. > :21:14.I'm studying Spanish and Italian, and I'm going to vote Leave.
:21:15. > :21:18.I'm a fourth year law student at Cardiff University,
:21:19. > :21:22.and I'll be voting to leave the European Union.
:21:23. > :21:25.I have a very positive case for staying in the EU.
:21:26. > :21:27.I think, for young people particularly, there's jobs out
:21:28. > :21:29.there, there's opportunities for travel, education
:21:30. > :21:35.We have a lot of power because we are part of the EU.
:21:36. > :21:39.If were not part of the EU any more, there's no guarantee that we will
:21:40. > :21:43.The referendum isn't about putting rockets on Dover and propelling us
:21:44. > :21:46.We are always going to be part of Europe.
:21:47. > :21:48.And of course, we're going to be stronger in Europe.
:21:49. > :21:51.It's the European Union that makes decisions and trade deals on our
:21:52. > :21:55.There is a large democratic deficit at the moment within the EU
:21:56. > :21:57.and the European institutions, and I think if we left
:21:58. > :22:00.there would be a lot more opportunity for young people,
:22:01. > :22:03.if Britain was a more sovereign nation.
:22:04. > :22:05.I think it's really funny when you use the term,
:22:06. > :22:09.I'm pretty sure there's a lot of Welsh and angry Scottish people
:22:10. > :22:16.as well who would say that the UK isn't democratic enough.
:22:17. > :22:19.This guy said to me, this older man, literally said to me,
:22:20. > :22:21.you younger generation need to just realise that
:22:22. > :22:24.you don't have the knowledge and the experience to know what's
:22:25. > :22:28.You need to let the older people make the decision for you.
:22:29. > :22:32.And that, for me, really stung, because I thought, actually,
:22:33. > :22:35.we not only have a right to vote and have a voice in this referendum,
:22:36. > :22:44.Back in the Swansea Valley, it's too late to change
:22:45. > :22:52.But would Charlotte and her Remain - supporting husband have more
:22:53. > :22:54.luck in their local, a traditional mining pub,
:22:55. > :22:57.where many, but not all, disagree with them?
:22:58. > :23:05.HE SPEAKS WELSH. Does that mean leave or remain?
:23:06. > :23:12.I think Cameron, when he did his so-called deal with the EU,
:23:13. > :23:16.gained nothing whatsoever, and if we vote to remain now,
:23:17. > :23:24.When we ruled ourselves, we were all using outside toilets.
:23:25. > :23:32.Now, it's so bloody good, everyone wants to come here.
:23:33. > :23:45.Could Yarrick and Charlotte persuade the older punters?
:23:46. > :23:57.As for the people that are coming in, we simply can't afford
:23:58. > :24:04.But is it not true that the ones that come here to work actually
:24:05. > :24:06.contribute more into the system
:24:07. > :24:10.Why do you think it is that your views don't chime
:24:11. > :24:15.I think it's because I care about different things
:24:16. > :24:19.They are focusing on immigration, you know, politics, that sort
:24:20. > :24:21.of thing, our own sovereignty and so on.
:24:22. > :24:23.I care about our scientific institutions, farming
:24:24. > :24:34.There aren't enough pints that I could buy them!
:24:35. > :24:35.Their minds are made up.
:24:36. > :24:40.So, you know, I think it's just an age thing.
:24:41. > :24:44.They come from a small, Welsh mining village,
:24:45. > :24:48.They are not ready to change their minds, which is fine.
:24:49. > :24:50.Everyone's entitled to their opinion.
:24:51. > :24:54.Families and the generations disagreeing on the right
:24:55. > :25:03.This referendum has got them talking.
:25:04. > :25:05.Ocassionally the serene quiet of a select committee hearing gets
:25:06. > :25:10.Today - as the BHS family saga unravelled before MPs -
:25:11. > :25:15.BHS chief executive Darren Topp and his financial lieutenant
:25:16. > :25:18.Michael Hitchcock called Dominic Chappell- the man
:25:19. > :25:21.who bought BHS for a pound - a "Premier League liar"
:25:22. > :25:28.Topp claimed Chappell threatened to kill him when he'd
:25:29. > :25:33.Mr Chappell denied this - and the claim he owned a gun -
:25:34. > :25:35.but - pantomime aside - what did we learn today
:25:36. > :25:44.Here's our Business Editor, Helen Thomas.
:25:45. > :25:47.In life, BHS's understated styles captured the British
:25:48. > :25:55.Instead, a tawdry and increasingly lurid slanging match.
:25:56. > :26:00.At issue: who is to blame for the failure of a story high
:26:01. > :26:04.street name and the loss of 11,000 jobs.
:26:05. > :26:08.Lawyers, accountants, advisers, trustees and regulators.
:26:09. > :26:12.They've all been questioned on what went wrong.
:26:13. > :26:15.Today was the latest stage of the postmortem.
:26:16. > :26:19.Dominic Chappell, the man who bought BHS from billionaire retailer
:26:20. > :26:27.Sir Philip Green for just ?1. It collapsed barely a year later.
:26:28. > :26:28.MPs were presented with two competing visions of
:26:29. > :26:33.In one version of reality he was a total liability.
:26:34. > :26:36.A compulsive liar who didn't understand BHS, and who shouldn't
:26:37. > :26:44.In the other version, his own, he was a hard-working businessman
:26:45. > :26:46.whose attempts to turn round BHS were blocked.
:26:47. > :26:50.Both versions raised questions for Sir Philip Green.
:26:51. > :26:53.He'll have his turn in Westminster next week.
:26:54. > :26:58.A trio of BHS managers laid out the case against Mr Chappell.
:26:59. > :27:07.And if it doesn't smell right invariably it is not right.
:27:08. > :27:13.Over ?1.5 million Dominic Chappell took out of the company.
:27:14. > :27:22.If I take out all the expletives he basically said, "Do not
:27:23. > :27:26."I've had enough of you telling me what to do over
:27:27. > :27:30."It's my business, I can do what I want."
:27:31. > :27:33."And if you kick off about it I'm going to come down
:27:34. > :27:37.So why did a businessman as experienced as Philip Green sell
:27:38. > :27:44.And why did respected advisers like Grant Thornton and Olswang
:27:45. > :27:49.One explanation had been that Dominic Chappell had shown he had
:27:50. > :27:56.But it was suggested today he'd got that money from investors,
:27:57. > :28:00.not to pump into BHS but instead to higher property off
:28:01. > :28:09.What we learnt today was that the ?35 million had been earmarked
:28:10. > :28:12.to acquire another property, not part of the BHS group,
:28:13. > :28:17.but part of Sir Philip's broader empire, we understand.
:28:18. > :28:21.And that was the sole purpose of the ?35 million.
:28:22. > :28:24.So it does put the seller in an intriguing situation
:28:25. > :28:28.where they were looking for credibility on ?35 million
:28:29. > :28:33.to bolster the credibility of the buyer of BHS.
:28:34. > :28:37.But that ?35 million was actually intended to acquire a property
:28:38. > :28:40.which is not part of the BHS group, but was presumably known
:28:41. > :28:47.In Dominic Chappell's version, Sir Philip Green should
:28:48. > :28:52.Do you think he is a successful businessman?
:28:53. > :28:54.He's been very successful at raising large amounts of money out
:28:55. > :28:57.of companies by taking huge dividends out of them, yes.
:28:58. > :28:59.There were shops there that had no heating.
:29:00. > :29:01.There were shops there that had no air handling.
:29:02. > :29:04.There were shops there where the staff, bless them,
:29:05. > :29:07.who loved and adored BHS, came in at weekends to paint,
:29:08. > :29:11.to replace lights, because no one had given that company any money
:29:12. > :29:17.And another disagreement over pensions.
:29:18. > :29:19.Mr Chappell said the stand-off between Sir Philip Green
:29:20. > :29:22.and the pension regulator hurt his attempts
:29:23. > :29:30.He has spent the last however many years doing deals and it is a quite
:29:31. > :29:33.You can't simply go to the pension regulator and say,
:29:34. > :29:40.I will put ?50 million into this pension scheme,
:29:41. > :29:45.It just doesn't work like that and it shouldn't work like that.
:29:46. > :29:53.A defiant Dominic Chappell said today pushed thereby
:29:54. > :29:57.You should expect Sir Philip Green to vigorously contest much
:29:58. > :30:05.Indeed BHS's last Chief Executive Darren top told me that he disagreed
:30:06. > :30:07.with Mr Chappell's assertion that Sir Philip had tipped the business
:30:08. > :30:13.Mr Topp said that decision was taken unanimously at a BHS board
:30:14. > :30:29.Mr Topp said business had simply run out of money.
:30:30. > :30:31.Raising funds against its property had fallen short.
:30:32. > :30:33.An MP said today that they were getting closer to the truth
:30:34. > :30:38.One thing seems clear, no one looks set to emerge untainted.
:30:39. > :30:44.Simon Walker - from the Institute of Directors - joins me now.
:30:45. > :30:57.Along with Ros Altman the pensions minister. Welcome, both. When you
:30:58. > :31:03.see this kind of squalid soap opera unfolding, it must make you wince?
:31:04. > :31:05.It is completely an excusable and absolutely outrageous. What worries
:31:06. > :31:12.me is that it makes people think that's what petition business is
:31:13. > :31:14.like. And British business is about hard-working people who have often
:31:15. > :31:19.mortgaged their houses in order to get companies going. This is as far
:31:20. > :31:23.from the world of normal businesses in this country as can be. So what
:31:24. > :31:28.went wrong? Where did the regulations fail here? Everything
:31:29. > :31:34.failed at every stage. I don't think Sir Philip was the only villain but
:31:35. > :31:39.as someone said, selling that company to a twice bankrupt racing
:31:40. > :31:44.driver with no retail experience was the equivalent of giving your keys
:31:45. > :31:50.to your car to a five-year-old and then saying, you crashed it. It is
:31:51. > :31:54.completely wrong to have done that. But your report rightly asks, where
:31:55. > :32:00.were the advisers? One of the most important law firms in the City of
:32:01. > :32:04.London was standing by them. Rand Thornton, a well-known accountancy
:32:05. > :32:08.deal was there. Lord Grabban QC is the chairman of Arcadia and seems to
:32:09. > :32:12.have been extremely relaxed about the sale of BHS. He wasn't even on
:32:13. > :32:19.the subcommittee, he learned about it five days later. The pension
:32:20. > :32:22.regulator said she learned about it in the newspaper sometime later.
:32:23. > :32:28.Everything went wrong. It is a scar on the face of British business, its
:32:29. > :32:32.damages everyone. If you believe, as I do, that capitalism is worthwhile
:32:33. > :32:35.and works in the interest of ordinary people, you have a
:32:36. > :32:39.particular responsibility to say how appalling this is. Dominic Chappell
:32:40. > :32:42.knew something was going wrong, and he brought the government and you
:32:43. > :32:46.personally into that meeting by saying he asked to meet you? He did
:32:47. > :32:50.ask to meet me and I did not think it was appropriate for him to try to
:32:51. > :32:55.meet the Minister, to go round the back door and bypass the pensions
:32:56. > :32:58.regulator. Why would it be the back door, if he was worried about the
:32:59. > :33:03.way the business was being handled, he could see things were not right,
:33:04. > :33:07.is that not responsible thing to do, contact the pensions minister? Not
:33:08. > :33:12.at all. The appropriate thing to do is go the pensions regulator and
:33:13. > :33:18.work out any issues that you have if you've got a problem with your
:33:19. > :33:22.pension scheme. Don't try and come to the Minister. Do you think the
:33:23. > :33:25.pensions regulator is the right body to deal with these issues after
:33:26. > :33:30.everything we have heard over the past few weeks? I do actually, and I
:33:31. > :33:34.would like to reassure the members of the BHS pension scheme and the
:33:35. > :33:41.workers who worked so royally, that their pensions are protected by the
:33:42. > :33:45.pension protection fund. Why did the pensions regulator say that they'd
:33:46. > :33:49.heard it through a newspaper report when we know that actually Philip
:33:50. > :33:52.Green had got in touch with them before he'd corrected the head of
:33:53. > :33:56.the pensions regulator and why, for example, was Philip Green not
:33:57. > :34:00.allowed to put money into the pension fund to try to increase the
:34:01. > :34:05.amount that was there? Again I think it is important for business owners
:34:06. > :34:08.to understand that a pension fund and its liabilities are real
:34:09. > :34:12.liabilities, and they have lives attached. And there are appropriate
:34:13. > :34:17.ways to deal with the pension scheme. Because what they should be
:34:18. > :34:21.doing is going to the pensions regulator and saying, if you have a
:34:22. > :34:26.big deficit, how am I going to be able to sort this out? How will I be
:34:27. > :34:29.able to look after my pension, as there are established processes that
:34:30. > :34:33.the pensions regulator will sit down with any business and say, if you
:34:34. > :34:37.want to deal with your pension fund and you have a problem, let's sit
:34:38. > :34:41.round the table and talk about it. It was said that it was not taken
:34:42. > :34:46.seriously by the pensions regulator when they offered to go in and sort
:34:47. > :34:50.it out. That is not the case as far as I am aware. And the impression
:34:51. > :34:54.here has been that the business doesn't understand the
:34:55. > :34:58.responsibility that they actually have under pensions law for the
:34:59. > :35:01.pension scheme, and the pension promises they have made to their
:35:02. > :35:06.members. The business should be going to the pensions regulator. The
:35:07. > :35:10.pensions regulator will ask for lots of information. If the business does
:35:11. > :35:15.not supply that information, the regulator cannot do anything. How do
:35:16. > :35:29.you see Philip Green at the end of all of this? He was appointed a tsar
:35:30. > :35:35.at the end of 2010. Efficiency tsar. We will have to wait for these
:35:36. > :35:40.investigations to run. You think he will be in the clear? I cannot
:35:41. > :35:46.prejudge anything. But I want to reassure people that we have a
:35:47. > :35:49.pension protection fund. EU law requires us to protect pensions,
:35:50. > :35:55.whereas previously British law did not. HBOS took eight years and have
:35:56. > :36:02.not reported fully on what led to the fall of that bank. We cannot
:36:03. > :36:05.wait until 2025 to work out where the regulators, lawyers, accountants
:36:06. > :36:10.let us down. So what needs to happen? We need the select committee
:36:11. > :36:13.to give some findings and come to the truth, otherwise it will damage
:36:14. > :36:18.the reputation of business as a whole, and we need to know the
:36:19. > :36:21.answers quickly. The regulators will report back by the end of the year.
:36:22. > :36:24.An Eritrean man suspected of running a huge human trafficking network
:36:25. > :36:26.that sent thousands of migrants to Europe has been extradited
:36:27. > :36:29.from Sudan to Italy - in the first operation of its kind
:36:30. > :36:32.to bring an African people smuggler to justice for his role
:36:33. > :36:37.However tonight, suggestions are starting to emerge
:36:38. > :36:40.that the joint operation - which was based on intercepting
:36:41. > :36:42.telephone calls - may actually have got the wrong man.
:36:43. > :36:48.This is meant to be Mered Medhanie as he arrives in Italy to face
:36:49. > :36:51.An alleged top people smuggler who styled
:36:52. > :36:56.He was arrested in Khartoum in a joint
:36:57. > :36:57.operation by British, Italian and Sudanese authorities
:36:58. > :37:04.Medhanie and his gang are a significant organised
:37:05. > :37:11.They have been involved with the movement of thousands of
:37:12. > :37:15.So we would consider this to be a major
:37:16. > :37:19.disruption of an organised crime group.
:37:20. > :37:22.But tonight there are growing reports that they picked up the
:37:23. > :37:27.wrong man and instead of notorious people trafficker, Mered Medhanie,
:37:28. > :37:29.they have arrested an ordinary Eritreans refugee who happens to
:37:30. > :37:37.That's according to one prominent Eritrean
:37:38. > :37:40.rights activist who was actually interviewed the real Mered Medhanie
:37:41. > :37:43.I don't believe they have the right person.
:37:44. > :37:45.The person that they have is a 28-year-old refugee
:37:46. > :37:49.who happens to have the same first name as him.
:37:50. > :37:55.I have spoken to his sister, spoken to his friends, I
:37:56. > :37:58.have received over 400 testimonies from people who know the person
:37:59. > :38:01.Everybody is saying this is my friend, my childhood friend.
:38:02. > :38:05.He is just a refugee in a camp in Sudan in 2015.
:38:06. > :38:08.We spoke to two friends of another Medhanie,
:38:09. > :38:43.Italian authorities, though, who earlier in the day
:38:44. > :38:46.gave a press conference, still say they have the right
:38:47. > :38:49.person, and the National Crime Agency here has said it's too early
:38:50. > :38:57.So what do we know about the man who the police were actually after?
:38:58. > :39:01.We've been told the real Medhanie was living in Khartoum,
:39:02. > :39:03.but he had previously reportedly been living in Tripoli,
:39:04. > :39:10.The smuggling route he allegedly operated goes from Eritrea,
:39:11. > :39:13.through Ethiopia and Sudan to Libya, where packed boats head off
:39:14. > :39:17.to the Italian islands of Lampedusa and Sicily.
:39:18. > :39:20.In one telephone conversation intercepted by authorities,
:39:21. > :39:26.Medhanie boasts that in the first half of 2014:
:39:27. > :39:35.Medhanie had teams working in Italy too,
:39:36. > :39:44.He reportedly charged up to 5000 euros for the whole journey.
:39:45. > :39:47.One of the smuggling operations British authorities linked
:39:48. > :39:51.to Medhanie's group ended in disaster three years ago.
:39:52. > :39:57.Over 300 people drowned off the coast of Lampedusa.
:39:58. > :40:08.But the search to bring those responsible for the deaths,
:40:09. > :40:11.And for many others might not be over yet.
:40:12. > :40:14.We leave you this scene filmed during the flash floods
:40:15. > :40:16.in Woodcote Road, Wallington in South East London,
:40:17. > :40:18.following the recent spell of hot weather.
:40:19. > :40:48.Today's storms have faded away now, a dry start for tomorrow. Early mist
:40:49. > :40:54.and fog in the West, low cloud in the East burning off more slowly.
:40:55. > :40:55.Sunny spells widely by the afternoon, warm day