:00:11. > :00:23.Across the western world shock at the murder of 49 people at the Pulse
:00:24. > :00:27.club in Orlando. In London vigils are being held for the dead and the
:00:28. > :00:31.wounded but how did one man killed so many? Tonight the key figures in
:00:32. > :00:35.American politics are reacting. We cannot continue to allow
:00:36. > :00:38.thousands upon thousands of people to pour into our country,
:00:39. > :00:53.many of whom have the same thought And with ten days to go to the key
:00:54. > :00:59.decision, drug macro is on the road. I am about as far away from London
:01:00. > :01:05.as you can be where local figures have their own views. We have
:01:06. > :01:08.brought our very own referendum road trip to Glasgow to you the
:01:09. > :01:13.passionate arguments driving the debate as it becomes increasingly
:01:14. > :01:24.clear that the Scottish vote may be pivotal.
:01:25. > :01:33.Good evening from Orlando, a city rocked to its core by the tragedy
:01:34. > :01:37.that left 49 dead and 53 injured in the Pulse club behind me, a city
:01:38. > :01:41.once synonymous with Disney World has been shattered by reality at its
:01:42. > :01:46.most devastating and painful, tonight new details have emerged as
:01:47. > :01:52.to how the gunman called 9/11 from the bottom of the club and pledged
:01:53. > :01:57.allegiance to the leader of Isis. He was known to the FBI, yet it seems
:01:58. > :02:03.able to buy firearms freely. President Obama says there is no
:02:04. > :02:07.evidence that the gunman was directed by so-called Islamic State
:02:08. > :02:10.but Donald Trump, this afternoon, said that if elected he would
:02:11. > :02:14.suspend immigration from areas of the world with a proven history of
:02:15. > :02:16.terrorism against the United States or their allies. We'll get into the
:02:17. > :02:26.politics in a minute. Gabriel Gatehouse joins me now.
:02:27. > :02:30.There was of course a huge element of, phobia in the choice of this
:02:31. > :02:36.vibrant gay nightclub in downtown Orlando. The question, to what
:02:37. > :02:39.extent was it terror or as you mentioned in your introduction
:02:40. > :02:44.directed by the group calling itself Islamic State. We know of the claim
:02:45. > :02:49.of membership in the 911 call, the question is, how much was it
:02:50. > :02:54.directed, the FBI director today says he believes he was almost
:02:55. > :02:58.certainly home - radicalised, here in the United States. He was born in
:02:59. > :03:03.the United States. These are some other things still being questioned.
:03:04. > :03:07.The other details we have had coming out today in forensics detail is
:03:08. > :03:11.what actually happened inside the club on the night itself. You will
:03:12. > :03:13.see some of pictures in the report that is just coming up you will find
:03:14. > :03:16.distressing. It is Latino night at Pulse,
:03:17. > :03:19.a buzzing gay nightclub in downtown By closing time, the dance
:03:20. > :03:38.floor was nearly full. At two minutes past 2am, Omar Mateen
:03:39. > :03:44.starts shooting into the crowd. An off-duty policeman working at the
:03:45. > :03:49.club exchanges fire with the gunman. Eddie Justice texts his mother from
:03:50. > :03:56.a bathroom inside the club. Mummy, I love you. In club, they shooting. At
:03:57. > :04:02.nine minutes past 2am the club posts on its Facebook page, everyone get
:04:03. > :04:07.out of Pulse club and keep running. Mr Garcia, a former DJ at the club,
:04:08. > :04:15.was out with a group of friends including Mercedes Florez. Once we
:04:16. > :04:21.knew this was real, everyone ducked to the floor. He was right next to
:04:22. > :04:31.me. I had blood all over my arms. It was actually from him. The shooting
:04:32. > :04:35.just continued and continued. As soon as it stopped, I kind of hurt
:04:36. > :04:38.him reloading, I got up and run to one of the back doors. Amanda
:04:39. > :04:51.records one final video on Snapchat. GUNFIRE
:04:52. > :04:56.She and her best friend, Mercedes, later confirmed dead. Now, Omar
:04:57. > :05:02.Mateen, armed with an assault rifle and handgun, begins to take
:05:03. > :05:04.hostages. He calls 911, pleading allegiance to Islamic State and
:05:05. > :05:12.makes a reference to the Boston Marathon bombings. 2:39am, still in
:05:13. > :05:19.the bathroom, Eddie Justice sends another message to his mother. His
:05:20. > :05:24.coming, I'm going to die. He too has since been confirmed as one of the
:05:25. > :05:28.dead. At five-minute spot 5am police and SWAT team members moving. They
:05:29. > :05:33.forced their way into the club with explosives and a battering ram. In
:05:34. > :05:42.11 of his as exchange gunfire with the shooter, 30 hostages rescued.
:05:43. > :05:47.5:48am, Orlando police to eat, we can confirm this as a mass casualty
:05:48. > :05:55.situation. -- Orlando police tweet. At 5:53am Lees confirmed that the
:05:56. > :06:00.shooter, Omar Mateen, is dead. -- police confirm this. 7am. As the
:06:01. > :06:04.authorities begin to search for answers, investigators inside the
:06:05. > :06:08.club the other mobile phones of victims ringing as family members
:06:09. > :06:11.desperate for news try to contact them. Police say is a specialist
:06:12. > :06:17.devices were found on the gunman and in his car. The Florida Department
:06:18. > :06:23.of Law enforcement special agent in charge calls the shooting an act of
:06:24. > :06:27.terrorism. Any time that we have potentially dozens of victims in any
:06:28. > :06:34.of our communities, I think we can qualify that as a terrorist
:06:35. > :06:42.activity. At 10:30am Law enforcement officials confirm that 49 people
:06:43. > :06:48.including the gunman are dead and 53 are injured. As America morning,
:06:49. > :06:54.Orlando adds its name to a growing rest, San Bernardino, Charleston,
:06:55. > :06:59.Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech, Columbine and more. But the mid and it at the
:07:00. > :07:04.Pulse club sets itself apart in scale and context -- but the murder
:07:05. > :07:09.unleashed there. Families and friends come to terms their personal
:07:10. > :07:14.lost, the deadliest shooting in this country's modern history has set of
:07:15. > :07:20.an explosive charge right across America's most divisive political
:07:21. > :07:23.fault lines. Now known as the biggest single mass shooting in
:07:24. > :07:26.modern American history, you heard from Gabriel Gatehouse.
:07:27. > :07:29.I'm joined by Pedro Julio Serrano, a gay rights activist and the first
:07:30. > :07:32.openly LGBT person to run for elective office in Puerto Rico.
:07:33. > :07:40.Now this is relevant, particularly, Pedro, because we know that nearly
:07:41. > :07:45.half of the people killed in the tragedy were of Puerto Rican
:07:46. > :07:49.descent. This must feel like a sore from all sides. Yes, in the 20 years
:07:50. > :07:54.I've been an activist I've never felt so much sorrow and so much
:07:55. > :07:57.pain. I knew some of the victims, I'm not family to them so I come and
:07:58. > :08:02.even imagine what they are going through. It's devastating. Some of
:08:03. > :08:06.them came to Orlando looking for a better life echoes of the crisis in
:08:07. > :08:12.Puerto Rico, they were fleeing the crisis that we have, and to be here
:08:13. > :08:17.in the hands of hate, it's uncomfortable. You had friends in
:08:18. > :08:22.the club? It could have been me in that club because I have been there,
:08:23. > :08:30.I am gay and buttery can, it comes close to me, I've had rifles similar
:08:31. > :08:35.to the one that could have ended my life, because they told me, we are
:08:36. > :08:40.going to kill you, fag and, we are going to terminate your life, and
:08:41. > :08:47.fortunately I fled and I'm alive but those 49 lives will never be again.
:08:48. > :08:52.It is a horrible tragedy. And it comes from every side. It is because
:08:53. > :08:57.they are that you know, they are LGBT, it is because of radical
:08:58. > :09:04.Islam, all of these things compounded into one another -- they
:09:05. > :09:10.are Puerto Rico. Sometimes I don't even have words. How do you find
:09:11. > :09:14.America's and the world's response to what has happened here? There is
:09:15. > :09:19.a lot of solidarity of course. I think that we will become a better
:09:20. > :09:22.society because of this but we cannot forget that this doesn't
:09:23. > :09:27.happen in a vacuum. We have leaders like Donald Trump and other
:09:28. > :09:31.religious and political leaders who are fundamentalists and have been
:09:32. > :09:35.inciting violence against the LGBT community for too long. And they are
:09:36. > :09:39.as responsible as the killer for this tragedy because when they
:09:40. > :09:45.inside violent against us they are giving permission to individuals
:09:46. > :09:49.like this can lead to attack us. I wonder how you interpreted some of
:09:50. > :09:54.the words from Donald Trump today? He sounded as if he was appealing to
:09:55. > :09:58.the gay vote, talking about the importance of the LGBT community,
:09:59. > :10:03.setting that very much a part of the minority to be protected. Did you
:10:04. > :10:08.feel reassured by that? I wish I could say on air what I really
:10:09. > :10:12.think! I'm just going to leave it out, hate cannot be combated with
:10:13. > :10:18.hate. They cannot fight hate with hate. We are not going to let this
:10:19. > :10:23.event is divided us. This is not a war against Islam. Islam is a
:10:24. > :10:27.religion of peace, and we have Muslim friends and people that we
:10:28. > :10:32.hold dear. And we are not going to let Donald Trump divide us. This is
:10:33. > :10:37.not going to be about a fight between Islam and the LGBT
:10:38. > :10:42.community. It's not a fight between Muslims and LGBT people. I think the
:10:43. > :10:47.answer to all of this love. Love well Trump, and I use the word Trump
:10:48. > :10:51.carefully, levelled from hate. We need to stop this. America needs to
:10:52. > :10:56.open its eyes because what the world is seeing is that they are letting
:10:57. > :10:59.this product of the tea party and all these radical right-wingers be
:11:00. > :11:07.the voice of America in this moment and they need to stop this. Pedro
:11:08. > :11:11.Julio Serrano, thank you, some heartfelt language there, you will
:11:12. > :11:15.fully understand the emotion that is in the city and the LGBT community
:11:16. > :11:22.tonight. This perfect storm of American crises, a sense of free gun
:11:23. > :11:25.laws and the possibility of Islamic radicalisation and a hate crime all
:11:26. > :11:27.in this one appalling crime. Gabriel Gatehouse
:11:28. > :11:36.is back with me now. It is not surprisingly the possibly,
:11:37. > :11:42.that, five months from an election, this has already got incredibly and
:11:43. > :11:46.heated to be political. This tragedy unites two of the most divisive
:11:47. > :11:52.issues in American politics. Number one gun control, number two Islamic
:11:53. > :11:55.terrorism. Often with these shootings which are about gun
:11:56. > :12:00.control and it dies away. No one needs reminding that we are in an
:12:01. > :12:03.election year. If you put these issues together it's not surprising
:12:04. > :12:08.that the candidates have talked about this. Remember Donald Trump in
:12:09. > :12:12.the aftermath of the Paris shootings last November. He came out with this
:12:13. > :12:16.statement calling for a temporary ban on the entry of Muslims into the
:12:17. > :12:21.America. A statement that became notorious in some quarters and was
:12:22. > :12:24.applauded and others. In the aftermath of this shooting he has
:12:25. > :12:27.not held back. We can hear some of what he said now.
:12:28. > :12:29.I will suspend immigration from areas of the world
:12:30. > :12:31.where there is a proven history of terrorism against
:12:32. > :12:34.the United States, Europe or our allies, until we fully
:12:35. > :12:42.We cannot continue to allow thousands upon thousands of people
:12:43. > :12:51.to pour into our country, many of whom have the same thought
:12:52. > :12:56.Many of the principles of radical Islam are incompatible with Western
:12:57. > :13:14.That was Donald Trump, we also heard from the Democratic candidate,
:13:15. > :13:18.Hillary Clinton, what did she say? The administration has for some
:13:19. > :13:22.days, in the run-up to this, been talking about what they say is a
:13:23. > :13:26.crazy situation where they can put American citizens on a no-fly list
:13:27. > :13:30.but cannot buy them from buying the kind of assault weapons that caused
:13:31. > :13:33.this carnage. So knows a prize that when Hillary Clinton spoke she
:13:34. > :13:39.emphasised that aspect of gun-control -- no surprise that when
:13:40. > :13:46.she spoke she emphasised that aspect of gun-control.
:13:47. > :13:55.Sadly, we do not have that clip. Produce a body said? Hillary Clinton
:13:56. > :14:00.basically said we must look at the means by which these attacks are
:14:01. > :14:05.carried out it is difficult to stop every single home grown, if that is
:14:06. > :14:10.the case, radicalised person from wanting to carry out an attack.
:14:11. > :14:15.Hillary Clinton was placing the emphasis on the material, the guns,
:14:16. > :14:20.that carry out these attacks. This election year is not like previous
:14:21. > :14:24.election years. Not like President Obama this is Mitt Romney or even
:14:25. > :14:28.versus John McCain. This puts a candidate from the establishment
:14:29. > :14:32.against a candidate who portrays himself as wanting to overturn the
:14:33. > :14:36.establishment. It is an incredibly feeble atmosphere here and events
:14:37. > :14:40.like this can push things off course. President Obama said the
:14:41. > :14:44.country was united in grief and in resolve. That may be so but very
:14:45. > :14:51.divided in the answers to this problem thank you. We can speak now
:14:52. > :14:53.to one of Durham Trump's foreign policy advisers, Waled Phares. Thank
:14:54. > :15:05.you for joining us. I wonder if you can clarify some of
:15:06. > :15:08.the comments from Donald Trump. He said he would suspend immigration
:15:09. > :15:11.from all countries with a proven history of terrorism against America
:15:12. > :15:17.or its allies. What does that entailed? That basically is a
:15:18. > :15:23.transformation of his initial statement made last year, 2015,
:15:24. > :15:28.about the so-called ban on Muslims. Now he is narrowing it to the
:15:29. > :15:34.countries where there have been jihadis. That is conditioned, if
:15:35. > :15:41.he's elected he's going to meet with the heads of agencies, leaders in
:15:42. > :15:45.Congress and in the Arab world to figure out how to determine who is a
:15:46. > :15:50.Jihadist and who isn't so he can apply this. He has said that he will
:15:51. > :15:54.suspend when he will have the capacity to make that
:15:55. > :16:03.differentiation between Jihadist and not. Of course many will say that it
:16:04. > :16:08.completely misses the point of a murderer, someone guilty of the
:16:09. > :16:15.deaths of 49 and wounding 53 others, who was born in New York and who is
:16:16. > :16:19.a Native American. Oh, absolutely, there are many jihadists in America,
:16:20. > :16:23.Great Britain, as you know, Belgium, France, who were born in those
:16:24. > :16:31.countries and had a passport. It isn't about being foreign and being
:16:32. > :16:34.non-foreign, it is about being a member of Salafi jihad is. The
:16:35. > :16:42.French and the Egyptians know it isn't about having a passport -- you
:16:43. > :16:50.had is. If you support the ideology of the movement, that should be
:16:51. > :16:53.addressed. -- jihadism. Then you will understand that the immigration
:16:54. > :16:57.question does not come into it as these people are in your country
:16:58. > :17:01.already. That is true, that is why Mr Trump is saying that firstly we
:17:02. > :17:06.must stop further penetration. He isn't saying that everybody coming
:17:07. > :17:10.to the United States, he was clear, we are a country of immigrants, we
:17:11. > :17:14.bring in immigrants but now the jihadists are using that to come in,
:17:15. > :17:18.so we are going to slow the flow, shut it down until we Figueroa at
:17:19. > :17:22.how we can make the distinction and then everybody who is a lawful
:17:23. > :17:30.immigrant will be welcomed -- until we figure out. There will be many
:17:31. > :17:35.watching I'm guessing who will say, each politician finds their own
:17:36. > :17:38.narrative to this and for Donald Trump, he just wants to reinforce
:17:39. > :17:43.the anti-Muslim narrative so he is making it all about anti-Muslim
:17:44. > :17:47.immigration. It is divisive and isn't going to solve any problems.
:17:48. > :17:54.He could be looking at gun crime, for example. Look, the agenda of
:17:55. > :17:59.those opposing Mr Trump, the Democratic party, the Obama
:18:00. > :18:04.administration, and of course the Muslim brotherhood and others are
:18:05. > :18:08.opposing him, they accuse him of being Islamophobic. There is nothing
:18:09. > :18:11.in his history, no books or articles, that show this. His
:18:12. > :18:18.companies have all kinds of Woolwich as groups and in his speech he said
:18:19. > :18:22.that he would work with countries such as the UAE, Egypt, Jordan and
:18:23. > :18:29.others. There is nothing Islamophobic about it, it is about
:18:30. > :18:33.national security. So do you think this is all just a petition to win
:18:34. > :18:40.an American vote from an Islamophobia within his voter base,
:18:41. > :18:45.then? He is basically attacking on the ground of Islamophobia but he
:18:46. > :18:50.has clarified it is nothing about that, it is about finding jihadists.
:18:51. > :18:55.In the Arab world, they called them by their names, why is it that the
:18:56. > :18:59.Obama administration and Hillary Clinton are not using this
:19:00. > :19:02.terminology? It is the political season and he is responding, no
:19:03. > :19:12.doubt about it. Thank you for joining us. It seems extraordinary,
:19:13. > :19:17.doesn't it, that's just a few days ago, this state and indeed the whole
:19:18. > :19:21.of America was celebrating the anniversary, a year of gay marriage.
:19:22. > :19:27.It seemed as if for many in the LGBT community this was a place that was
:19:28. > :19:32.becoming freer, more open and accepting of its LGBT community. But
:19:33. > :19:39.an act like this goes straight to the heart of terror and it is up to
:19:40. > :19:42.America to figure out what kind of place it wants to be. Over to you,
:19:43. > :19:44.Evan. Well, not withstanding events
:19:45. > :19:48.in the US, the referendum campaign here in the UK has been
:19:49. > :19:52.intensifying, immigration But with ten days to go
:19:53. > :19:56.now, Newsnight is out We don't have a battle bus,
:19:57. > :20:06.but our Newsnight truck helpfully transforms into instant studio,
:20:07. > :20:11.from which we'll be getting fresh perspectives, we'll be asking
:20:12. > :20:14.you questions and debating They say all politics is local
:20:15. > :20:21.and we'll be stopping in a diverse selection of localities,
:20:22. > :20:25.from the industrial hub of Middlesbrough, to the football
:20:26. > :20:29.mad City of Leicester, to the postcard pretty market
:20:30. > :20:31.town of Chipping Norton. We'll end up in the southern seaside
:20:32. > :20:34.resort of Bognor Regis on Friday. I've come to the Outer Hebrides,
:20:35. > :20:41.to the Isle of Lewis. Many say Brussels is remote,
:20:42. > :20:45.too distance to Many say Brussels is remote,
:20:46. > :20:47.too distant to connect to our needs. Nowhere in the country can say that
:20:48. > :20:50.with more conviction Further geographically
:20:51. > :20:53.from the heart of the EU In our last Europe referendum,
:20:54. > :21:00.the Western Isles were one of only Unfortunately it's a little
:21:01. > :21:09.expensive to get the truck here, so I hopped over to Stornoway
:21:10. > :21:12.by plane and have left it We'll join Kirsty a little later
:21:13. > :21:18.for that Glasgow perspective. But one big issue in this
:21:19. > :21:20.campaign is distinctiveness. Everywhere in Europe,
:21:21. > :21:23.everywhere in the world, And many feel that membership
:21:24. > :21:28.of a big, sprawling EU Well, there are not many places
:21:29. > :21:37.in the UK or the EU that are as truly distinctive
:21:38. > :21:42.as the Isle of Lewis. The top left-hand corner of Britain,
:21:43. > :21:48.a beautiful location. It scores unusually high
:21:49. > :21:50.on religious observance; certainly don't come here for shopping
:21:51. > :21:52.on the Sunday sabbath. It's low on population density
:21:53. > :21:57.and diversity; and it is hideously light at this time
:21:58. > :22:01.of year and night. So is Brussels a friend or foe,
:22:02. > :22:04.to an island like this? John Sweeney has been here,
:22:05. > :22:08.sounding out local opinion. You're listening to Annie on Isles
:22:09. > :22:11.FM and she is excellent. We certainly are, it is 8.34
:22:12. > :22:17.and a half, I'm very pleased to welcome into the studio
:22:18. > :22:19.from Newsnight, John Sweeney. Outer Hebrides, please,
:22:20. > :22:24.let's get this right. You've come up to do a piece
:22:25. > :22:30.about the EU referendum What's fascinating about this place
:22:31. > :22:37.is that there is very little little inward immigration,
:22:38. > :22:39.which is a big issue and in England and the rest of
:22:40. > :22:42.Britain. Here, you can look at the economic
:22:43. > :22:52.argument pretty purely, in a way, As well as the fact that it is one
:22:53. > :22:56.of the most beautiful places MUSIC: "I'm Gonna Be (500 Miles) -
:22:57. > :23:05.The Proclaimers referendum, the Isle of Lewis
:23:06. > :23:11.was one of only two places So, 40 years on, will the most
:23:12. > :23:24.north-westerly community If you seek the beauty
:23:25. > :23:28.of the European Union, Scalpaigh Bridge, a poem
:23:29. > :23:34.in steel and concrete. Cost, 6 million quid,
:23:35. > :23:36.more than half of it paid Proof, if proof were needed,
:23:37. > :23:44.say Remain, that the European Union If we get out of the European Union,
:23:45. > :23:51.we have control over If we want to build
:23:52. > :23:58.a bridge, we can. This whiskey distillery is not even
:23:59. > :24:01.a year old. Its setup costs were part funded
:24:02. > :24:04.by the EU and for that, seen over the last 20,
:24:05. > :24:15.30 years has had the European badge on it, saying
:24:16. > :24:17.it is it is part-funded. So in the simplest terms,
:24:18. > :24:19.it has provided funding, We used to have single-track
:24:20. > :24:30.roads all over the place. You might notice if you drove
:24:31. > :24:33.from Stornoway today, Every piece of that road has got
:24:34. > :24:37.European funding in it. We have to produce a very,
:24:38. > :24:39.very high quality product here and charge a good price for it
:24:40. > :24:43.to make sure that we can get it to market, get it to people
:24:44. > :24:46.with a profit margin. Europe is obviously going to be
:24:47. > :24:49.a huge market for us because it's close, so the logistics
:24:50. > :24:52.are easier to deal with. But now to the most famous
:24:53. > :24:55.export of these islands. Harris Tweed, it's worn by everyone
:24:56. > :24:58.from Vivienne Westwood And every inch of it
:24:59. > :25:03.comes through here. So this is wet wool,
:25:04. > :25:07.which has a distinctive smell that No, no, it's just a very
:25:08. > :25:13.distinctive smell! At Harris Tweed Hebrides we are very
:25:14. > :25:24.much for remaining part of Europe. We depend very heavily on trading
:25:25. > :25:31.with our European partners, trading with different
:25:32. > :25:33.countries in Europe, France, Germany and Italy
:25:34. > :25:35.in particular and we find that These are all markets we are looking
:25:36. > :25:43.to grow and expand the coming years. It is nine o'clock and
:25:44. > :25:51.the catch is being landed. Do you think if we pull out
:25:52. > :25:54.of Europe tomorrow they are going We have a massive Spanish and French
:25:55. > :25:59.fleet fishing off the west Coast of Scotland but we have a very
:26:00. > :26:04.limited quota for white fish. But they can fish UK water,
:26:05. > :26:08.on our doorstep, but we can't. The Common Fisheries Policy just
:26:09. > :26:14.hasn't worked in the UK as a whole. Kipper fillets, we have
:26:15. > :26:23.smoked mackerels. Some of Ross's fish
:26:24. > :26:25.will end up here, in This is the old kiln, this was one
:26:26. > :26:33.of the original kippering kilns. Kippers used to be loaded
:26:34. > :26:36.from the top down with ladders This is what we use
:26:37. > :26:41.for our own salmon. Our own smoked salmon
:26:42. > :26:44.is done in here. As you can see, the walls
:26:45. > :26:48.are covered in a thick layer of tar. The EU is a vast, vampiric
:26:49. > :26:53.bureaucracy feeding off itself I defy you to go out
:26:54. > :27:00.of here and find anybody who can tell you the distinction
:27:01. > :27:03.between the European Council, the Council of Europe,
:27:04. > :27:05.the European Parliament, In '75, this part of
:27:06. > :27:11.the world voted to leave. It will do, most of the customers
:27:12. > :27:16.who come into our The Outer Hebrides was Labour
:27:17. > :27:23.and is now SNP and both How the vote will pan out,
:27:24. > :27:29.no one knows for sure. Excuse me, sir, please
:27:30. > :27:37.don't swim away. Well, let's get a little
:27:38. > :27:54.more of the debate here. I'm with Mary Anne McIver, who runs
:27:55. > :27:57.a tourist business in Stornaway. And Robert MacInnes,
:27:58. > :28:07.who has a building firm. Thank you for joining us. You are
:28:08. > :28:14.leaning towards out, I think, Robert. Why is that? Before we
:28:15. > :28:19.joined the EU, the harbour was full of local fishing boats and now there
:28:20. > :28:23.are next to none. The French, the Spanish, the Dutch, they are allowed
:28:24. > :28:31.to come into Scotland, catch twice the quota we are allowed, from day
:28:32. > :28:36.one. If we leave, is the fishing industry going to come back, do you
:28:37. > :28:42.think? It will never come back to where it was, they've cleaned it
:28:43. > :28:50.out. You are leaning, you are not quite as firm as Robert. What would
:28:51. > :28:55.make you want to stay? I've been involved into arisen for the last 30
:28:56. > :28:59.years and I've seen huge investment in infrastructure, training and
:29:00. > :29:04.quality standards, marketing, everything has benefited from
:29:05. > :29:07.Europe. At the airport we can see a plaque saying that the airport was
:29:08. > :29:13.paid for party with funds from Europe. What do you make of that,
:29:14. > :29:16.Robert? If we didn't give the money to Brussels in the first place and
:29:17. > :29:21.the UK Government directly gave it to the tourist industry or directly
:29:22. > :29:26.to the farmers in Britain and directly to the fisher in Britain,
:29:27. > :29:32.there would be more -- to the fishermen. Maryanne, who do you
:29:33. > :29:36.think is more in touch and who is going to be looking after the
:29:37. > :29:41.western isles more, Brussels or London? I'd have to say London,
:29:42. > :29:50.absolutely, certainly in Scotland we'd have to say Edinburgh. We are
:29:51. > :29:57.looking out for our own people, who stand up for us. I think we have
:29:58. > :30:00.lost a bit of that through Europe, through the kind of governance in
:30:01. > :30:06.many respects. That's why you are still wavering? Yes, I'm not sure
:30:07. > :30:11.and to be honest it will be on the day that I decide. One reason why so
:30:12. > :30:15.many people in Scotland I think what to vote to remain is that perhaps
:30:16. > :30:19.they see it as a counterbalance to the power of London. You are a
:30:20. > :30:25.supporter of the SNP, so you don't want to be dominated by the English,
:30:26. > :30:31.I think that's obvious. You don't see Brussels as balancing power in
:30:32. > :30:36.London? No, it is even further away that the money is being sent, the UK
:30:37. > :30:43.Government send it to Brussels, they send ?100 and get ?70 back. We are
:30:44. > :30:47.supposed to be grateful. The debate here is a bit distinctive, fishing
:30:48. > :30:53.played a big part in the decision, the vote to come out last time. What
:30:54. > :30:57.about immigration? If you watch the news and look at the debate in
:30:58. > :31:03.England, it is full of immigration. Is that playing here at all? Not at
:31:04. > :31:07.all. We've got a few people coming from the Eastern bloc who have come
:31:08. > :31:12.here and they are very welcome, they are integrated and they are a
:31:13. > :31:16.necessary part of what we do. Especially in the tourism industry,
:31:17. > :31:23.they are necessary to do the jobs, they have children who go to school.
:31:24. > :31:32.I have seen little evidence of any Eastern European migration. There
:31:33. > :31:36.are Polish people here? Have implied four polish people, great workers,
:31:37. > :31:41.work hard, pay their taxes. I'd certainly welcome more. There are
:31:42. > :31:46.fish factories here totally run by Latvians... When you watch the way
:31:47. > :31:54.the argument is going, how connected is it to the issues here? To be
:31:55. > :32:00.honest, for people like me, Joe Published, we've had so much
:32:01. > :32:06.politics in the last few years, with the referendum, we are bombarded
:32:07. > :32:10.with Leave or State, or whatever so we are quite distrustful of what we
:32:11. > :32:15.are hearing, what is being reported. That is why people are not sure
:32:16. > :32:17.which way to vote. Thank you both very much.
:32:18. > :32:19.I've chatted to people asking them to predict the result.
:32:20. > :32:21.And I've had entirely contradictory answers.
:32:22. > :32:25.How about in other parts of Scotland though?
:32:26. > :32:27.Kirsty is with the Newsnight dormobile, in Glasgow.
:32:28. > :32:47.of Kelvingrove Gallery, which has suitably
:32:48. > :32:49.European connections, built in the Spanish Baroque style
:32:50. > :32:51.for the Glasgow International exhibition in 1901.
:32:52. > :32:54.The arguments in the debate broadly in Scotland are over
:32:55. > :32:57.the economic impact of the EU, but migration is not the issue
:32:58. > :33:00.We'll be talking about that in a moment with the psephologist
:33:01. > :33:02.extraordinaire Professor John Curtice, but first let's go
:33:03. > :33:05.to our political editor, Nick Watt, who has learned about a possible
:33:06. > :33:15.News that the Solder has formally backed Brexit. A surprise? Not
:33:16. > :33:23.really, it has not been a great friend of the European union over
:33:24. > :33:28.the years. Remember that headline Up Yours Delors. The newspaper takes
:33:29. > :33:33.pride in reflecting the ideas of swing voters and is relentlessly
:33:34. > :33:35.political because it homes in on the argument giving sleepless nights in
:33:36. > :33:41.three straight which is that the riskiest option is to stay in and
:33:42. > :33:45.those won't be helped by a YouGov poll in the times tonight which
:33:46. > :33:50.suggests that Leave is seven point head. Another set of figures is
:33:51. > :33:54.causing concern, the suggestion that support among Labour voters is
:33:55. > :34:00.falling. This is where the PM has seceded the campaign for Remain to
:34:01. > :34:04.Labour at the moment. You saw Gordon Brown campaigning although there are
:34:05. > :34:08.divisions inside the Labour Party. Many are concerned that Jeremy
:34:09. > :34:12.Corbyn 's celebration of immigration is not helping the blue-collar
:34:13. > :34:15.natural Labour voters who identify with the Vote Leave warnings on
:34:16. > :34:20.immigration. The Shadow ministers are careful what they say yet Ed
:34:21. > :34:23.Balls and Yvette Cooper and former Cabinet members were able to come
:34:24. > :34:29.out and say that if we remained in the EU we could have controls on
:34:30. > :34:35.immigration. We could use the UK presidency of the EU next year to
:34:36. > :34:38.persuade Jenkin countries to perhaps but in border controls. We will be
:34:39. > :34:42.seeing the Prime Minister a game, the Chancellor will make a big
:34:43. > :34:46.speech at Mansion house on Thursday night on economic risks with Mark
:34:47. > :34:50.Carney, the governor of the Bank of England, and on Friday, the big day,
:34:51. > :34:55.Christine Lagarde, managing director of the IMF will against big about
:34:56. > :34:59.what Brexit could mean for the economy. That is because Downing
:35:00. > :35:03.Street firmly believes that the referendum will be won on the
:35:04. > :35:07.economy. The lesson they took from the Scottish referendum was that
:35:08. > :35:13.Project Fear did win the referendum. It wasn't a pledge of further
:35:14. > :35:15.devolutionary powers to Hollywood, it was Project Fear, the economic
:35:16. > :35:18.risk and that is the territory that they want to get back onto. Nick,
:35:19. > :35:33.thank you. What is the latest position in the
:35:34. > :35:38.polls? The evidence is beginning to Camilla and that Leave has made
:35:39. > :35:41.progress. One poll shows a 3-point swing, and mother of four point
:35:42. > :35:47.swing. If we look at all ten opinion polls done over the Internet, since
:35:48. > :35:52.the government has no longer had access to the civil service machine
:35:53. > :35:56.and has dominated headlines by producing paper after paper warning
:35:57. > :36:00.us of the allegedly dire consequences of leaving the EU,
:36:01. > :36:05.since then the opinion polls done over the Internet have on average
:36:06. > :36:11.per delivered to's at 51.5. Before that those polls have always said it
:36:12. > :36:18.was 50-50, and even split. Those polls are still on average better
:36:19. > :36:23.for Remain but in the last couple of weeks including one today we had
:36:24. > :36:29.telephone polls putting Leave head. And on average in those polls only
:36:30. > :36:35.52% support Remain. This referendum is looking much closer than ten days
:36:36. > :36:39.ago. What is the split Nationwide? The truth is that Scotland is
:36:40. > :36:44.certain to Remain although the polls here have given Remain two thirds of
:36:45. > :36:48.the vote and Leave only one third of the vote. Equally in Northern
:36:49. > :36:54.Ireland, it looks as if there will be a 60-40 split in favour of
:36:55. > :37:01.remaining. It's must undoubtedly the case whereas in England and in Wales
:37:02. > :37:07.Leave are ahead. Might it be that Scotland pulls England in? If we are
:37:08. > :37:13.looking at a situation where we may get only 51% support for Remain, in
:37:14. > :37:17.that event, Scotland and Northern Ireland will have been pivotal in
:37:18. > :37:19.keeping the UK inside the European Union. Nick mentioned that speech by
:37:20. > :37:21.Gordon Brown. an audience of university students
:37:22. > :37:25.and it was interesting to note that his closing pitch to them
:37:26. > :37:27.stressed his view of Britain's What sort of message would we send
:37:28. > :37:32.to the world on June 23, if we, Britain, who consider ourselves one
:37:33. > :37:34.of the most internationally-minded countries of the world,
:37:35. > :37:38.who consider ourselves to be outward looking, engaged, decided to walk
:37:39. > :37:42.away from our nearest neighbours? This is not the Britain I know,
:37:43. > :37:46.this is not the Britain I believe in, this is not the Britain
:37:47. > :37:50.we should aspire to be. We should be a leader in Europe
:37:51. > :37:53.and not leaving it, and that's But could Scotland
:37:54. > :38:03.keep the UK in the EU? With the prospect that
:38:04. > :38:05.Nicola Sturgeon could But that would reduce
:38:06. > :38:08.the likelihood of another Scottish referendum, which a
:38:09. > :38:13.Brexit might trigger. To discuss this I'm joined
:38:14. > :38:22.by Glasgow multimillionaire businessman John Boyle, who is
:38:23. > :38:25.leading a one-man charge to leave, the SNP's Alisdair Allan,
:38:26. > :38:32.and the writer Denise Mina. Good evening. First, Alisdair,
:38:33. > :38:38.hasn't David Cameron sort of been using the SNP to say, basically, if
:38:39. > :38:42.you vote to Leave will have another referendum and that could mean a
:38:43. > :38:48.split in the UK. You could be called David Cameron's poodle, doing his
:38:49. > :38:50.work for him. I think that's a far-fetched reading of the
:38:51. > :38:54.situation. We face a simple choice next week about whether we want to
:38:55. > :39:00.be in the EU. That is the question that will be on the ballot paper.
:39:01. > :39:04.It's no secret that I want Scottish independent, so does the Scottish
:39:05. > :39:10.Government, yet that is not what we are being asked. It could be like
:39:11. > :39:13.Project Fear, he says that if we vote to Remain less chance of
:39:14. > :39:17.independence. I don't think people see it in those terms, people are
:39:18. > :39:22.starting to see it as the campaign gets tighter, see what's happening,
:39:23. > :39:27.people are beginning to think of the positive case for being in Europe.
:39:28. > :39:32.And also thinking about what is the prospect that Leave site offers as
:39:33. > :39:38.to how we coexist and trade with the rest of Europe in future? John, a
:39:39. > :39:43.lot of what was said in that film will be no deal. You have businesses
:39:44. > :39:49.all over the UK, undoubtedly -- it will be known to you. That
:39:50. > :39:54.distillery has been open for your... The fact is that the one thing
:39:55. > :39:59.becoming increasingly clear is that this nonsense that if we vote to
:40:00. > :40:05.Leave, Europe somehow will not trade with us. It's nonsense. We run a
:40:06. > :40:14.trade deficit with Europe of ?9 billion a month. We give them ?9
:40:15. > :40:23.billion... There's a huge deficit. The idea that the French, when we
:40:24. > :40:29.put in ?1.3 billion of their wine -- that we import that, would tax us
:40:30. > :40:34.when we export ?480 million of whiskey, it's absolute nonsense. Sir
:40:35. > :40:39.James Dyson at this weekend highlighted this. I think people are
:40:40. > :40:44.becoming increasingly susceptible to the fact that the economic argument
:40:45. > :40:48.survey does not stand up. Denise. Ray mac and John, they are looking
:40:49. > :40:54.at a broader spreadsheet, looking at trade with Britain, they get this
:40:55. > :40:58.much profit from it. They also looking at trade jeopardised with
:40:59. > :41:01.other European countries. If Europe fractures they will have to
:41:02. > :41:09.negotiate tariffs and deal with all those other countries so... Why
:41:10. > :41:14.would Europe commit economic suicide by imposing tariffs on us but not
:41:15. > :41:21.reasonable when they sell more to us than we do to them? Because they are
:41:22. > :41:24.looking at the value of having the European Community. It is
:41:25. > :41:30.interesting that your passion is not matched by what we're hearing from
:41:31. > :41:35.Leave in Scotland, they have been muted, to do regret that? It has
:41:36. > :41:39.been rated, there's a possibility of election fatigue Scotland. I think
:41:40. > :41:46.John Curtis was right, Scotland will undoubtedly vote, not as I think
:41:47. > :41:50.because I think a lot of people in Scotland will vote Remain because
:41:51. > :41:54.they fear the prospect of another referendum, and they are now having
:41:55. > :41:59.second thoughts because there was another referendum, bring it on,
:42:00. > :42:03.we'd win even more convincingly. Let's look at the question of
:42:04. > :42:07.migration. Is it not true that overall migration is the same
:42:08. > :42:11.roughly as it is in England but it is fair to say that we don't have
:42:12. > :42:18.the concentrated areas in Scotland as they do in England and that's the
:42:19. > :42:23.problem. People become ghettoised. It's a sign that people are not made
:42:24. > :42:28.welcome and don't feel safe in disparate communities. But I think
:42:29. > :42:32.people do feel safe here. People from other countries have made a
:42:33. > :42:36.huge contribution to Scotland culturally and economically. It's
:42:37. > :42:40.important to say that we are talking in Scotland about communities from
:42:41. > :42:46.across the EU whose future will be very uncertain if we're not part of.
:42:47. > :42:49.Not only that, it is a two-way street because there are plenty of
:42:50. > :42:55.British people living in countries in Europe whose future would be
:42:56. > :42:59.equally... Earlier in this campaign we went to Boston, Lincolnshire,
:43:00. > :43:04.where 10% of the population from Eastern Europe. If that happened in
:43:05. > :43:10.a town like Stirling it would feel different. People who come here from
:43:11. > :43:14.Europe, coming to make their home in Scotland and big us that complement
:43:15. > :43:18.our making a net contribution economically and culturally to
:43:19. > :43:25.Scotland. They are less likely to be claiming benefits than anyone, more
:43:26. > :43:28.likely to be claiming tax. I think it is unfortunate that elements of
:43:29. > :43:34.the Leave campaign have chosen to make this an unpleasant debate about
:43:35. > :43:40.migration. This is exactly where Remain have gone wrong. They have
:43:41. > :43:43.consistently, the Prime Minister and particularly the Labour Party,
:43:44. > :43:48.refused to discuss immigration. I would concede wholeheartedly it is
:43:49. > :43:55.less of an issue in Scotland than in England but when you have 330,000
:43:56. > :44:01.people coming from the EU into the city the size of Coventry, no matter
:44:02. > :44:07.what benefits there may be, the pressure that it puts on schools and
:44:08. > :44:11.the NHS is... It is nonsense to suggest that we can sweep that under
:44:12. > :44:16.the carpet. It has not been swept under the carpet. The point is
:44:17. > :44:25.leaving the EU will not necessarily resolve migration. Control our own
:44:26. > :44:30.borders, of course it will. It won't make that much difference! The world
:44:31. > :44:34.is fundamentally changing. The coming philosophical question of the
:44:35. > :44:39.edge, how do you maintain a cultural identity in a globalised
:44:40. > :44:43.environment. It is not the EU, it's a globalised environment. You are
:44:44. > :44:48.telling me that... One of the reasons we are democratic is we
:44:49. > :44:53.control our own borders, laws and taxes. If we control none of those
:44:54. > :44:58.we want the country. Can I ask you to address this briefly, Alisdair?
:44:59. > :45:01.If Remain is successful, do you admit that it will push the idea of
:45:02. > :45:14.independence in Scotland into the long grass? I don't accept
:45:15. > :45:17.the premises of these questions. There is a simple question being put
:45:18. > :45:20.to us about the positive case for remaining in the European Union and
:45:21. > :45:22.that is what people in Scotland are thinking of. Of course if Scotland
:45:23. > :45:25.is put in a position where it is tracked out of the European union
:45:26. > :45:29.against its will electorally of course that will have an impact and
:45:30. > :45:33.create new pressures around the case for independence, for the case
:45:34. > :45:38.independence. The case for independence has been around for a
:45:39. > :45:42.long time and it isn't going away. Briefly, Denise, you want to stay in
:45:43. > :45:45.the UK and you accept that if we leave we are more likely to have
:45:46. > :45:50.another referendum. I think people are exhausted, you are right, they
:45:51. > :45:54.are exhausted being asked to write in to constitutional questions, we
:45:55. > :45:58.have to be bound by the outcome of the referendum, whether it is what
:45:59. > :46:02.we would like not. Thank you. That is all from here tonight, there will
:46:03. > :46:08.be more from Emily in Orlando and will be moving on with our Road
:46:09. > :46:17.truck tomorrow. From all of us in Glasgow, good night.
:46:18. > :46:20.Weather across the UK stuck in repeat, plenty of showers, some
:46:21. > :46:21.heavy