:00:00. > :00:00.All this week, we're on our Referendum Road trip,
:00:07. > :00:09.and we've moved our Newsnight studio truck south from Scotland
:00:10. > :00:14.Tonight, we're live in Middlesbrough - a Labour heartland
:00:15. > :00:17.where at the last election, Ukip have surged into second place -
:00:18. > :00:21.to find out if Jeremy Corbyn's Remain message is what people
:00:22. > :00:27.How many of you are thinking of voting Out?
:00:28. > :00:29.The biggest single thing that people are talking about is
:00:30. > :00:33.What is clear is that they don't understand why they
:00:34. > :00:35.can't talk about it with their politicians and why their
:00:36. > :00:43.The Remain campaign wheels out its not-so-secret weapons
:00:44. > :00:48.Tonight, I'll ask this one why so many of their traditional voters
:00:49. > :00:51.seem to think they're firing blanks on immigration.
:00:52. > :00:56.Over the course of your professional lifetimes,
:00:57. > :01:01.wounds would you estimate that you have each treated?
:01:02. > :01:13.Probably all the fingers in this room would not count it up.
:01:14. > :01:15.In Orlando, the killings have quickly become polemic.
:01:16. > :01:17.Those on the right want to make this about Isis and immigration.
:01:18. > :01:20.Those on the left want to make it about gun laws.
:01:21. > :01:23.Those in the LGBT community feel they are getting lost in a political
:01:24. > :01:32.narrative that has forgotten about them.
:01:33. > :01:40.Good evening from Middlesbrough, where the smell of its remaining
:01:41. > :01:43.chemical industry is in the air. We have parked our Referendum Road Trip
:01:44. > :01:48.truck in front of the town hall in the heart of the town. In a moment,
:01:49. > :01:51.I will be asking an audience of local people and politicians what
:01:52. > :01:59.they want to hear from Labour in particular on Europe.
:02:00. > :02:02.All this week, the Newsnight truck is travelling north to south,
:02:03. > :02:04.from Glasgow to Middlesbrough, to Leicester, Chipping Norton
:02:05. > :02:07.and finally on Friday, to Bognor Regis, to find out
:02:08. > :02:13.what people really think about the EU.
:02:14. > :02:17.Last night, we were in Glasgow and today, the Newsnight crew
:02:18. > :02:20.took the Road Show truck across the beautiful Pennines
:02:21. > :02:23.and into the industrial town of Middlesbrough.
:02:24. > :02:25.Past a piece of classic engineering, the famous Transporter
:02:26. > :02:33.Here, there is a proud industrial heritage in steel chemicals,
:02:34. > :02:35.where people still call themselves the Smoggies,
:02:36. > :02:43.Unemployment is well above the national average.
:02:44. > :03:02.And this is amongst the most deprived boroughs in England.
:03:03. > :03:05.But there's pride in this town, and they are proud, too,
:03:06. > :03:07.of their famous sons, from the Explorer and navigator
:03:08. > :03:09.Captain Cook, to the football visionary, Brian Clough,
:03:10. > :03:13.And they are celebrating present-day footballing glory, too.
:03:14. > :03:16.They have just been promoted back to the Premier League.
:03:17. > :03:18.So in this one-time industrial heartland, has the EU been
:03:19. > :03:31.a power for good or simply exacerbated its decline?
:03:32. > :03:38.First, we have a small audience of voters from Middlesbrough, including
:03:39. > :03:45.some first-time voters, with a wide variety of views. First, Ray Kelly.
:03:46. > :03:49.You are porting for Leave. Why? To get back our democracy, our
:03:50. > :03:55.Government and our border controls. -- you're to me. You want to stop
:03:56. > :04:00.immigration most of all? Not to stop but to control it. We need
:04:01. > :04:05.immigration but we need to control it and we can't control it at this
:04:06. > :04:11.moment in time. From your point of view, are you going to vote to
:04:12. > :04:16.re-main or leave? I think you are a Leave man. I am. I am a guy of older
:04:17. > :04:24.values. When the EU was first made, it was about making a better world
:04:25. > :04:29.and a better market. Those values are long gone and we have two cement
:04:30. > :04:34.the values again. Where have we gone wrong in values? Isn't the idea of
:04:35. > :04:39.bringing other countries into the fold very much one of a bigger
:04:40. > :04:45.European family? You can bring in all the countries you want. We want
:04:46. > :04:49.to bring in Algeria and places like that. I am all for immigration and
:04:50. > :05:01.they bring so much value to the UK economy, a lot more than... Myself,
:05:02. > :05:05.I feel that we should look at UK citizens and how they contribute to
:05:06. > :05:13.the EU in general, and look away from the immigration. Terry, you
:05:14. > :05:18.have another view. Mine is the NHS. I feel like if we do leave, there
:05:19. > :05:22.will be huge detrimentally affects to the NHS. And yet, people say that
:05:23. > :05:28.if we do leave, there will be more money to spend on it. They say it
:05:29. > :05:31.will be put into the NHS, whereas a lot of there are -- whereas there
:05:32. > :05:38.are a lot of other places that need to go to. Who knows? It is a big
:05:39. > :05:44.gamble. We are also close to the art gallery here. Allister Hutton, tell
:05:45. > :05:50.me, what does the EU do for you and your gallery? We get direct EU
:05:51. > :05:53.funding, and not just that but collaborations with museums and
:05:54. > :05:58.universities and cultural organisations all over Europe. Don't
:05:59. > :06:02.you have that with America, Australia and Canada? We do, but
:06:03. > :06:09.these are our neighbours and we are in it with them. The only way to
:06:10. > :06:14.work is to collaborate. Isolation is from a past era. Is this the best
:06:15. > :06:19.use of the EU money, do you think is Mike yes, because it goes into
:06:20. > :06:23.skills, training, education, into a whole host of things that support
:06:24. > :06:29.the culture and economy of the region. I would like to speak to
:06:30. > :06:37.Oliver. You are a first-time voter, argue nervous? Is a bit. It is a
:06:38. > :06:45.question of, where do you go with this? So you haven't decided? No.
:06:46. > :06:50.What would persuade you? I think it will be a lot of business. We are
:06:51. > :06:56.the future of the country, and everything else, and that makes us,
:06:57. > :07:00.I feel, the most important, and I feel we haven't been targeted enough
:07:01. > :07:05.in terms of political campaigns. What about you, where do you stand?
:07:06. > :07:13.I am undecided. I think it would be a these -- it would be easier for
:07:14. > :07:20.first-time voters if we had decided ourselves the pros and cons of
:07:21. > :07:23.remaining on leaving. You only have ten days left, and you feel the
:07:24. > :07:27.politicians are not giving you what you want to hear? Yes. Maybe you
:07:28. > :07:30.will get answers later on. Labour grandees are out
:07:31. > :07:32.in force this week, pushing the case for Remain,
:07:33. > :07:34.as surveys suggest many Labour voters don't even know their party's
:07:35. > :07:37.position on the referendum. So how disconnected is Labour
:07:38. > :07:39.from its industrial heartland? The now-defunct Redcar steelworks
:07:40. > :07:53.loom out of the fog. They closed for good eight months
:07:54. > :07:56.ago, with more than 3000 workers 175 years of steel-making,
:07:57. > :08:04.consigned to history. OK, so what we are doing
:08:05. > :08:07.in the theory side of the lesson At Middlesbrough College's Stem
:08:08. > :08:10.Training Centre, amongst the apprentices, a pot
:08:11. > :08:13.of ?1.2 million has been allocated specifically to retrain people
:08:14. > :08:19.who lost their jobs in steel. With opportunities for overtime,
:08:20. > :08:21.wages in the steel This former electrical supervisor
:08:22. > :08:29.at Redcar has taken a pay cut to become a trainer at the college,
:08:30. > :08:31.although he's very grateful What happened at Redcar has
:08:32. > :08:35.influenced his decision But you got the message
:08:36. > :08:42.that they couldn't Yes, because of EU rules,
:08:43. > :08:46.which were stopping them In another classroom,
:08:47. > :08:51.a one-day course Five here lost their jobs
:08:52. > :08:57.when the steelworks shut. In the past, they would have been
:08:58. > :09:00.Labour through and through and might have listened to what
:09:01. > :09:02.the party is saying How many of you are
:09:03. > :09:12.thinking of voting In? How many of you are
:09:13. > :09:15.thinking of voting Out? You know, we are systematically
:09:16. > :09:21.losing industries The steel industry, the shipbuilding
:09:22. > :09:24.industry, the fisheries. No, I don't think
:09:25. > :09:34.it is globalisation. If traditional Labour voters are key
:09:35. > :09:42.to Britain's continuing EU membership, Labour needs to work
:09:43. > :09:45.a lot harder to persuade them. Middlesbrough has been Labour
:09:46. > :09:54.for decades by the party's message Middlesbrough has been Labour
:09:55. > :09:56.for decades but the party's message does not appear to be reaching
:09:57. > :09:58.working-class voters. This is going to be a dry bar,
:09:59. > :10:01.that means a bar, that looks like an adult-only bar environment
:10:02. > :10:03.but no booze. Andy Preston is a local
:10:04. > :10:04.philanthropist. When open, this site will offer
:10:05. > :10:07.work and opportunities He left the Labour Party
:10:08. > :10:10.a few years ago but is He has picked up a disconnect
:10:11. > :10:15.between Labour and its core voters. The biggest single thing that people
:10:16. > :10:17.are talking about is immigration. What is clear is that they don't
:10:18. > :10:20.understand why they can't talk about it with their politicians
:10:21. > :10:23.and why their politicians What has gone on is that people have
:10:24. > :10:29.seen their area change, physically. It looks different and feels
:10:30. > :10:31.different, and they have got Labour's unwillingness
:10:32. > :10:35.and discomfort at talking about the concept of immigration
:10:36. > :10:37.is really impacting On the 23rd of June,
:10:38. > :10:46.I'm voting Out and the reason is, apart from the massive immigration,
:10:47. > :10:49.I mean, we should now be taking Caring for her granddaughters takes
:10:50. > :10:57.up Jane's every moment. The children's parents are addicts
:10:58. > :11:02.and the kids would be in care You cut down on your bills,
:11:03. > :11:08.electric and gas. You don't use as much,
:11:09. > :11:10.you are frightened to use too You have just got to be
:11:11. > :11:14.careful with your money. It is just the love you have got
:11:15. > :11:17.for them and they need When you are struggling,
:11:18. > :11:20.the sense that others are getting Like, for other, like,
:11:21. > :11:27.for our own people. I know I should not say that,
:11:28. > :11:30.but it's our own and bringing No one can get any money or anything
:11:31. > :11:37.like that, you know, the allowances they are entitled to,
:11:38. > :11:40.they are cutting that back as well, so they have got more money
:11:41. > :11:42.for the other people When you speak to people
:11:43. > :11:48.round here about the Labour Party and how Labour wants them to vote
:11:49. > :11:51.In, are they listening, No, not at all, they are not
:11:52. > :11:54.listening at all. Labour is doing nothing
:11:55. > :11:58.at all for them whatsoever. They have decided that they want
:11:59. > :12:01.to vote Out and stay out. Labour was for working class
:12:02. > :12:06.but there's no jobs no more. There's no working class for them
:12:07. > :12:14.so they prefer to vote Out. Just how widespread is the desire
:12:15. > :12:17.amongst voters to leave the EU in a region which has
:12:18. > :12:20.benefited from European money As you know, this is a table,
:12:21. > :12:29.which was Boosbeck-designed... In the 1930s, Boosbeck was a scheme
:12:30. > :12:31.that had unemployed Artist Adam Clarke has reinvented it
:12:32. > :12:36.with help from Middlesbrough's Institute of Modern
:12:37. > :12:40.Art and EU funding. The idea is to reskill and give
:12:41. > :12:44.employment to people in the area. All here are left-leaning
:12:45. > :12:50.and support Britain's EU membership. I don't think that leaving the EU
:12:51. > :12:57.will do workers any favours. I think we need to be represented
:12:58. > :13:04.at a European level as well. When people are poor,
:13:05. > :13:06.it is very easy to point I would not say justified
:13:07. > :13:13.but I would say Things have got harder again
:13:14. > :13:21.recently with the cuts. Do they have an answer
:13:22. > :13:24.to Labour's travails? I think it is almost the politics
:13:25. > :13:29.of personality that is required. Personally, I think Jeremy Corbyn
:13:30. > :13:33.is doing a good job. But I think traditional voters
:13:34. > :13:35.need somebody who is, you know, in the vein
:13:36. > :13:40.of a Nigel Farage, but with different political views
:13:41. > :13:43.of course, who can persuade them I think what we have had
:13:44. > :13:50.historically is that hard-working people in the past relied
:13:51. > :13:53.on the Labour Party to look after their interests
:13:54. > :13:55.with workers' rights, with pay, Now, people are feeling
:13:56. > :14:01.that the Labour Party and other parties are not looking after them
:14:02. > :14:04.in the same way. What we are seeing here is not
:14:05. > :14:06.necessarily a desertion of the Labour Party but a bit
:14:07. > :14:08.of a rebellion I predict that to continue,
:14:09. > :14:12.as people nationally move away But that is the challenge Labour has
:14:13. > :14:17.got, to re-engage with these people The question for both sides in this
:14:18. > :14:40.referendum, can Labour do that With me now is the shadow civil
:14:41. > :14:43.society Minister. Those sentiments from the film, I know that you think
:14:44. > :14:48.there is a terrible sense of urgency, and you are quite critical
:14:49. > :14:52.of the Labour leadership. Critical of the campaign so far. We really
:14:53. > :14:57.have to get out and talk to people. Today was mixed on the doorstep, but
:14:58. > :15:01.there is palpable anger on Teesside. We have been devastated in the last
:15:02. > :15:06.six months, with the loss of the steelworks. That is thousands of
:15:07. > :15:09.jobs, and not just deal workers, childminders and window cleaners.
:15:10. > :15:13.People are angry and they are hitting out. We cannot afford for
:15:14. > :15:19.people to cut off their nose despite their face.
:15:20. > :15:25.But again, the idea that there have been benefits on the EU in terms of
:15:26. > :15:28.the money but in that people don't see it in everyday lives? We are an
:15:29. > :15:33.net beneficiary of what comes out of the EU but we have to tell Biba
:15:34. > :15:36.that. We've got fantastic asset on Deeside, the port, the chemical
:15:37. > :15:41.industry rely on a market in Europe. If we don't invest, we will make the
:15:42. > :15:47.situation worse and the situation we saw this year will be industrial
:15:48. > :15:51.self harm. I know you think London appears to be a long way away? It
:15:52. > :15:54.does, London has got a long way away, particularly in this process.
:15:55. > :15:58.We felt people don't understand the steel crisis and we think they don't
:15:59. > :16:00.understand the fight. They have other report says all the jobs have
:16:01. > :16:04.been absorbed which they haven't. London does not understand and we
:16:05. > :16:08.need the leadership. I was delighted to see Jeremy and the labour
:16:09. > :16:19.movement come out today and say it's about workers' rights. People are
:16:20. > :16:21.saying and the report said, a lot of people don't know where Labour
:16:22. > :16:23.stands? We found that on the doorstep, Labour voters who are
:16:24. > :16:25.undecided about voting and they want to know what we think, how it
:16:26. > :16:28.affects their lives, pay and conditions, particularly women. We
:16:29. > :16:31.have a big job to do. What we heard in the film is that one of Labour's
:16:32. > :16:34.big failures is being prepared to talk about immigration? I think
:16:35. > :16:38.that's right, we have not been prepared to talk about issues like
:16:39. > :16:40.immigration, there are issues like security, crime, anti-social
:16:41. > :16:43.behaviour, we have to grasp and listen to what people are telling us
:16:44. > :16:47.on the doorstep and if we stick our head in the stand, -- in the sand,
:16:48. > :16:50.we're not in touch with people. Tom Watson came out today and made an
:16:51. > :16:53.important statement, we have to look at free movement because people have
:16:54. > :16:57.seen their wages depressed which was not because of free movement. You
:16:58. > :17:02.are going to stay here and we are to talk about what you can and cannot
:17:03. > :17:04.do on free movement but now, we are getting the latest from our
:17:05. > :17:11.political editor, Nick Watt, who joins us from London. I gather that
:17:12. > :17:16.the Labour leaders and big figures have been out in force today?
:17:17. > :17:18.Yes, they have indeed been out in force and they share the concerns
:17:19. > :17:23.that you are hearing there from Anna. What we are hearing the night
:17:24. > :17:27.is those fears have become so great that there are senior Labour figures
:17:28. > :17:30.in the Remain campaign who are saying to their conservative
:17:31. > :17:33.colleagues, "We have, the Prime Minister has got to talk about
:17:34. > :17:38.immigration because this is the issue which is in danger of meaning
:17:39. > :17:42.that Labour voters deserve the Gabi main campaign. We understand it's
:17:43. > :17:45.difficult for the Prime Minister to talk about, and he does not want to
:17:46. > :17:48.talk about the net migration target but Yvette Cooper, the former Shadow
:17:49. > :17:51.Home Secretary has said the night and has been telling her former
:17:52. > :17:55.colleagues the Prime Minister should say he could use for example the UK
:17:56. > :17:59.presidency of the EU next year to talk about possible modest reforms
:18:00. > :18:03.to freedom of movement. But the message from number ten tonight is
:18:04. > :18:06.no, we want to focus this campaign on the economy and they are so wary
:18:07. > :18:09.of talking about immigration that they won't even talk about one of
:18:10. > :18:14.the things Gordon Brown and Yvette Cooper has been talking about that
:18:15. > :18:17.was in the Conservative manifesto, establishing a special fund to help
:18:18. > :18:24.areas that are struggling under the impact of immigrants.
:18:25. > :18:28.Service ends of this array with nine days to go but tomorrow is going to
:18:29. > :18:31.be one of the more eventful days on the campaign? Yes, tomorrow, George
:18:32. > :18:35.Osborne will live up to the number ten commitment to try to yank this
:18:36. > :18:39.campaign back to the economy. He will share a platform with his
:18:40. > :18:44.predecessor as Chancellor, Alistair Darling, and they will say that IFS
:18:45. > :18:46.estimates suggest there will be a ?30 billion like: the public
:18:47. > :18:49.finances if we voted to leave and the way you deal with that, they are
:18:50. > :18:54.talking about an emergency Brexit budget, which would have ?15 billion
:18:55. > :18:59.of tax increases, ?15 billion of spending cuts. Why are they doing
:19:00. > :19:03.this? They want to reprise the success they believe they had in
:19:04. > :19:08.signalling the economic risks in the Scottish independence referendum and
:19:09. > :19:13.there was interestingly, turmoil on the markets today, a flight to
:19:14. > :19:16.safety as the FTSE 100 went below 6000 but the first time since
:19:17. > :19:21.February, and the second thing they want to do is to say that Vote
:19:22. > :19:25.Leave's idea of spending an extra ?100 million a week on the NHS is a
:19:26. > :19:28.con because there would be a big hit to the economy but Vote Leave are
:19:29. > :19:30.saying it is nonsense and scaremongering and they say they
:19:31. > :19:34.will outline a positive vision tomorrow of how they can take the UK
:19:35. > :19:37.out of the EU in a step-by-step process by 2019. Thank you for
:19:38. > :19:43.joining us. We are going to be back in
:19:44. > :19:48.Middlesbrough for more conversation before the end of the programme but
:19:49. > :19:50.now to Emily in Dando where the shock of the nightclub killings
:19:51. > :19:52.continue to reverberate across the whole of the United States. -- in
:19:53. > :19:54.Orlando. Good evening from Orlando,
:19:55. > :19:59.a city whose tragedy has somehow turned into the backdrop for one
:20:00. > :20:01.of the fiercest political rows of this already
:20:02. > :20:03.extraordinary electoral race. President Obama unleashed
:20:04. > :20:05.what felt like seven years of frustration
:20:06. > :20:06.towards the Republican presidential hopeful Donald Trump,
:20:07. > :20:08.warming that his anti-Muslim rhetoric would drive
:20:09. > :20:12.many young Americans Today Trump, who has
:20:13. > :20:23.consistently called Obama soft on terrorists, suggested
:20:24. > :20:25.obliquely the President may actually be aligned with the terrorists,
:20:26. > :20:28.a conspiracy theory too far And what of the community
:20:29. > :20:31.here itself? Today, surgeons
:20:32. > :20:35.at Orlando's hospital told me they treated over1,000
:20:36. > :20:39.victims of gun crime every year. And we heard from a survivor who
:20:40. > :20:43.played dead to stay alive. But perhaps the most arresting
:20:44. > :20:46.details came of the killer himself, as witnesses suggested
:20:47. > :20:48.he might have been gay. How do you describe a man
:20:49. > :20:50.who was angry, unstable, America has called Omar Mateen
:20:51. > :20:54.a terrorist, a radical Islamist, a homophobe and increasingly now,
:20:55. > :20:59.a self hater. As witnesses say he frequented gay
:21:00. > :21:04.clubs himself over the course of several years, was he a man
:21:05. > :21:10.so conflicted with his sexuality in a religion that did not tolerate
:21:11. > :21:12.homosexuality, and if so, does that make America's response
:21:13. > :21:19.to this any different? I met him one time,
:21:20. > :21:22.at the bar, he was trying He was a homosexual
:21:23. > :21:27.and he was trying to pick up men. He would walk up to them
:21:28. > :21:30.and then he would, maybe, put his arm around them
:21:31. > :21:32.or something, and maybe try to get them to dance
:21:33. > :21:35.a little bit or something, Others have come forward saying
:21:36. > :21:43.the killer's profile was on Grindr He might have been casing out
:21:44. > :21:51.victims, or he might have At the LGBT Centre in Orlando,
:21:52. > :21:55.they're offering support and counselling to survivors,
:21:56. > :21:56.families and friends. The director says he recognises
:21:57. > :22:00.the picture that is emerging. It seems more leaning
:22:01. > :22:08.towards a closeted LGBT person, who needed to take
:22:09. > :22:15.their vengeance out on their own demons
:22:16. > :22:18.and walked into this club To try to cleanse themselves
:22:19. > :22:21.of their demons and take it Adam, a mental health counsellor,
:22:22. > :22:26.says he has seen the pattern many times but says it is easier
:22:27. > :22:31.for America to point to an external There's definitely an element of,
:22:32. > :22:38.you know, people politicising this. But I think there is something
:22:39. > :22:44.larger going on there. This is an LGBT issue,
:22:45. > :22:52.this is a mental health issue, this is something that we as Orlandoans
:22:53. > :22:55.and Americans have to figure This isn't just, there's
:22:56. > :23:02.an outside bad guy out Certainly, the mass shooting has
:23:03. > :23:09.exposed two presidential nominees to a sharp examination
:23:10. > :23:11.of their political instincts Now, Hillary Clinton,
:23:12. > :23:17.or as I call her, Crooked Hillary She refuses to even say
:23:18. > :23:25.the words radical Islam. Americans, we don't need
:23:26. > :23:28.conspiracy theories and pathological
:23:29. > :23:32.self-congratulations. We need leadership, common-sense,
:23:33. > :23:35.and concrete plans, because we are facing
:23:36. > :23:41.a brutal enemy. By focusing on the Orlando
:23:42. > :23:45.killer's allegiance to Isis, it has become much easier for those
:23:46. > :23:48.on the right of American politics to talk about the need
:23:49. > :23:50.for new immigration measures But for many Americans,
:23:51. > :23:56.this is a pretty domestic tragedy, both more mundane and more
:23:57. > :23:59.intractable, that toxic combination of what happens when mental health
:24:00. > :24:04.issues meet easy access to firearms. At the Orlando hospital,
:24:05. > :24:08.we hear powerful testimony from one I wish I could remember his face
:24:09. > :24:14.or his name, that cop, because I want to say
:24:15. > :24:18.I'm grateful to him. So he starts to drag me out,
:24:19. > :24:25.across the street, to the Wendy's. I'm grateful for him but the floor
:24:26. > :24:29.was covered in glass. So he's dragging me out
:24:30. > :24:31.while I'm getting cut I don't feel pain but I just feel
:24:32. > :24:41.all this blood on me, He just drops me off,
:24:42. > :24:49.across the street, and I look over Surgeons tell a packed room
:24:50. > :24:56.of global press they still have 27 of the shooting victims,
:24:57. > :24:59.six in intensive care. Quick question to the surgeons,
:25:00. > :25:04.I'm just doing the maths, over the course of your professional
:25:05. > :25:07.lifetimes, how many victims of gunshot wounds would you estimate
:25:08. > :25:19.that you had each treated? So you would each say
:25:20. > :25:23.more than 10,000? Barack Obama arrives
:25:24. > :25:26.here in Orlando on Thursday, in the midst of possibly
:25:27. > :25:28.the craziest confection yet, intimations from Donald Trump that
:25:29. > :25:31.America's president may even be complicit in terror activities
:25:32. > :25:33.by Islamic extremists. This community, survivors
:25:34. > :25:36.and victims, are desperate for all of this and all of us to go
:25:37. > :25:40.away, but at this point in the electoral, presidential
:25:41. > :25:42.cycle, nothing, it seems, is ever just about an
:25:43. > :25:58.appalling tragedy itself. Joining me down the line from Los
:25:59. > :26:03.Angeles is the founder of the Moral Courage project. Thank you for
:26:04. > :26:08.joining us. Am I right in thinking that you describe yourself as
:26:09. > :26:12.lesbian and Muslim without conflict? Well, without conflict, for sure. I
:26:13. > :26:19.came out to my very devout Muslim mother many years ago. She told me,
:26:20. > :26:24."You are my daughter and my love for you is unconditional". So I have
:26:25. > :26:28.certainly been blessed with a wonderful parent but in addition to
:26:29. > :26:35.that, I will say that commune, we Muslims are taught that God is
:26:36. > :26:40.omniscient and all-powerful. -- I will say that, you know. All knowing
:26:41. > :26:45.and all-powerful so surely he knew when he was creating somebody like
:26:46. > :26:49.me. Does make mistakes? Muslims would say absolutely not. So I have
:26:50. > :26:54.been able through the love of my family and the love of God to
:26:55. > :26:59.reconcile all that I am, rather than leader vulcanised life. I'm very
:27:00. > :27:05.much at peace with being gay and being Muslim. -- lead a vulcanised
:27:06. > :27:11.life. And we were hearing elements of the Orlando Keller's life, there,
:27:12. > :27:15.suggestions he had been on gay dating apps and frequenting some of
:27:16. > :27:18.the clubs himself over the years, that he had beaten his first wife
:27:19. > :27:25.badly, to the point where she was removed by her parents. Does this
:27:26. > :27:32.spell any pattern of behaviour to you? Does this sound like a man who
:27:33. > :27:36.is a self hater? Honestly, there are so many cases of wife abuse and
:27:37. > :27:40.domestic violence all over the world, that it would be reductionist
:27:41. > :27:49.and irresponsible for me at least to say that yes, this guy is absolutely
:27:50. > :27:57.a self hater, or was. But clearly, if he was scoping out potential six
:27:58. > :28:04.partners, or potential victims, on apps like Grindr, there was
:28:05. > :28:09.something in him that was more than just religious, it was more than
:28:10. > :28:13.just angry. It may have been some kind of loathing instinct that
:28:14. > :28:22.brought him to do what he did. We simply don't know. You sound as if
:28:23. > :28:27.he were very lucky in the love of your parents and the support you had
:28:28. > :28:33.-- you were. But many people of all will it and we'll find it very hard,
:28:34. > :28:37.particularly -- all religions will find it very hard, particularly in
:28:38. > :28:42.this case, as it seems, to be a practising Muslim and a homosexual.
:28:43. > :28:45.What is the path forward there? Yes, you're right, many Muslims do find
:28:46. > :28:48.it difficult and when I speak with Young Muslims all over the world,
:28:49. > :28:55.one of the most common questions they ask of me is," how do I tell my
:28:56. > :29:00.parents that I am not straight?" Some will use the word gay but that
:29:01. > :29:06.is certainly a much wider concern within the Muslim community than
:29:07. > :29:10.most imams and elders will want to acknowledge. The path forward is
:29:11. > :29:16.actually cultural more than it is religious. You know, in Arab
:29:17. > :29:22.culture, there is a tradition, a custom known as on. While it sounds
:29:23. > :29:26.honourable, it actually is not. On refers to the reputation of the
:29:27. > :29:32.entire family. If somebody is accused of trying is Chris in moral
:29:33. > :29:35.codes, not only -- of transgressing moral codes, not only have you
:29:36. > :29:38.shamed yourself according to this cost of honour, you have change your
:29:39. > :29:45.entire family. Imagine the pressure that puts on young Muslims to shut
:29:46. > :29:48.up and conform. The path forward is to redefine honour, to meet
:29:49. > :29:53.individual dignity, individual integrity, and wholeness, rather
:29:54. > :30:01.than any one of us being the property of our families. So do you
:30:02. > :30:08.believe there is a clash of civilisations between these two?
:30:09. > :30:14.Emily, I don't believe that. Here I sit before you, live, as someone who
:30:15. > :30:19.has, you rightly pointed out, is completely reconciled as both gay
:30:20. > :30:24.and Muslim. I was born in Africa. Very different values than the
:30:25. > :30:30.country in which I grew up, which is Canada. It is that chlorella is and
:30:31. > :30:36.that freedom that allowed me to ask many, many questions, both of myself
:30:37. > :30:40.and of others. And thank God for those freedoms. Because that is what
:30:41. > :30:46.allowed me to understand that you don't have to be one or the other,
:30:47. > :30:51.that God has created us complicated, and any god that is majestic will
:30:52. > :31:02.not be manufacturing widgets, he will be creating truly divine
:31:03. > :31:03.creatures. Thank you for joining us. We appreciate you joining us
:31:04. > :31:13.tonight. Even though it feels like some of
:31:14. > :31:18.the politics is overtaking the narrative, this is a community that
:31:19. > :31:24.is asking many questions, trying to understand where the Leeds lead, if
:31:25. > :31:28.you like, whether it is about mental health issues in the community,
:31:29. > :31:33.whether it is about how a man who has been checked out by the FBI
:31:34. > :31:37.three times can still go out and buy a gun. This is a community that,
:31:38. > :31:40.essentially, needs to be left in peace.
:31:41. > :31:42.When Labour politicians talk about it, they invariably
:31:43. > :31:44.When Labour politicians don't talk about it,
:31:45. > :31:46.they arguably end up in even more trouble.
:31:47. > :31:50.But they have to find a trouble-free way to talk about immigration now,
:31:51. > :31:53.with most of the data describing it as the engine driving traditional
:31:54. > :31:55.supporters into the arms of the Leave campaign.
:31:56. > :31:59.The problem is, what are they going to say?
:32:00. > :32:07.Joining me now is Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn.
:32:08. > :32:20.We must be again by calibrating using the context of the Shadow
:32:21. > :32:27.Cabinet. You know that toe... Tom Watson has called for a look at free
:32:28. > :32:31.movement. On the campaign trail in tooting, Jeremy Corbyn has said that
:32:32. > :32:34.free movement of workers is intrinsic to the European Union,
:32:35. > :32:37.there has to be free movement of people, and that is what we have to
:32:38. > :32:47.defend because it is intrinsic to the helping. Back of a fag packet
:32:48. > :32:56.calculation, Mr Watson's edition is supported by Ed balls, Andy Burnham,
:32:57. > :32:59.and we know that Jeremy Corbyn's position is different. Who are you
:33:00. > :33:07.closest to? Yellow might we heard in the film the people that you were
:33:08. > :33:11.speaking to. There is pressure on some communities, and Redcar is
:33:12. > :33:16.suffering because of the closure of the steelworks, and there are things
:33:17. > :33:21.that we can do. For example, when it comes to new member states possibly
:33:22. > :33:24.joining the EU, we have complete control over that because we can
:33:25. > :33:29.determine the terms on which they join because each member state has a
:33:30. > :33:33.veto on that. But we're not going to help deal with any of those
:33:34. > :33:38.pressures that people feel in communities up and down the country.
:33:39. > :33:44.I'm afraid, the notion that we don't talk about immigration, I talk about
:33:45. > :33:48.it a great deal to my constituents, travelling around the country, and I
:33:49. > :33:52.talked about it in a speech that I made yesterday. Of course, we talk
:33:53. > :33:59.about it, but we will not deal with the problem by damaging our economy,
:34:00. > :34:06.particularly in the north-east, where 58% of exports go to the EU.
:34:07. > :34:09.I am interested in the Labour versus labour position of Mr Corbyn appears
:34:10. > :34:14.to have said this evening that the free movement of people within the
:34:15. > :34:17.EU is sacrosanct. Mr Watson appears to be suggesting that a future
:34:18. > :34:20.Labour Government or Conservative Government would have to have it up
:34:21. > :34:26.for grabs, it would have to be negotiable. What is your personal
:34:27. > :34:29.position? My position is that, yes indeed, the current set up in the EU
:34:30. > :34:37.is that free movement is part the deal, both into Britain, and 1.2
:34:38. > :34:40.million Brits who exercise their rights of free movement elsewhere.
:34:41. > :34:43.Of course, it is right to have a debate will stop what you are
:34:44. > :34:52.reporting on is, there is a debate taking place. Between the leader and
:34:53. > :34:56.deputy leader of the Labour Party. It is the most important political
:34:57. > :35:02.decision in a generation and you are having a debate about what your
:35:03. > :35:07.position is. Yellow might we are not having a debate about what our
:35:08. > :35:12.position is. Today, you saw the Labour family come together at
:35:13. > :35:15.Congress house, the Shadow Cabinet, members of the NEC, trade union
:35:16. > :35:20.leaders, all saying with one voice, the right thing for Britain, for
:35:21. > :35:27.workers, for jobs, investment and growth, is to remain in the EU. You
:35:28. > :35:31.can't, on one hand, say that Labour isn't listening to people on the
:35:32. > :35:37.doorstep. If we are having a debate about what the right thing to do is
:35:38. > :35:41.going forward, hopefully after Britain has voted to remain, you
:35:42. > :35:43.would say that was a good thing, wouldn't you?
:35:44. > :35:46.Tom Watson was stating that the current rules on freedom of movement
:35:47. > :35:50.should be reviewed. Jeremy Corbyn appears to be insisting that they
:35:51. > :35:54.should not. I will have to lick my finger and see which way the wind is
:35:55. > :36:00.blowing - you seem to be closer to Corbyn. I said that we should look
:36:01. > :36:04.at how the system works. I have already said to you that when it
:36:05. > :36:09.comes to new member states, which is an area where we do have control, it
:36:10. > :36:15.would be within our rights to say, for new member states, yes, you can
:36:16. > :36:19.join the single market, which is important to jobs, but we will be
:36:20. > :36:23.term and how free movement applies to those countries. I think that
:36:24. > :36:28.would be a sensible thing to do, and we have the ability do it, because
:36:29. > :36:33.every member state has a veto. Have you just come up with a third by? I
:36:34. > :36:37.don't know about that! Look, the people are talking about it, it is a
:36:38. > :36:41.big issue in the referendum, so it is right and proper that we should
:36:42. > :36:49.talk about it, too. But that does not get away from the most important
:36:50. > :36:54.point, which is that weakening our economy - and it is unusual to get
:36:55. > :37:01.most economists do agree that the economy will be hit when we leave.
:37:02. > :37:04.Every study confirms it. Warnings from the Governor of the Bank of
:37:05. > :37:09.England and the IMF. For all of them to say that we will have a weaker
:37:10. > :37:12.and less prosperous economy if we leave, how will that help us deal
:37:13. > :37:18.with the pressures we heard about in the film, on housing, the NHS and
:37:19. > :37:21.schools? And the north-east, of course, there has been changing the
:37:22. > :37:25.industrial make-up of that part of the country, as there has been
:37:26. > :37:29.elsewhere, but what else is going on there, and where is the most
:37:30. > :37:38.productive car plant in the whole of Europe? Millions have been spent on
:37:39. > :37:44.a new train manufacturing plant. Importantly, it is because we are
:37:45. > :37:50.part of the largest single market in the world. Leaving that and creating
:37:51. > :37:52.uncertainty about future trading relationships does nothing to
:37:53. > :37:58.address the concerns that people have. In fact, it makes it worse. It
:37:59. > :38:04.is all about numbers. There are the currency numbers, the money numbers,
:38:05. > :38:08.growing larger every day, the amount that we have lost on the market, the
:38:09. > :38:13.amount we might lose in the future, versus the number of people who
:38:14. > :38:17.might come here in the event of such and such a country joining. Are you
:38:18. > :38:21.saying to the people we saw in the film tonight, there is not a great
:38:22. > :38:25.deal that we can do about your concerns regarding immigration, but
:38:26. > :38:29.I promise you will be even worse off if we leave? Is that the message, or
:38:30. > :38:34.does the Labour Party have any line on telling people why the reality of
:38:35. > :38:38.immigration is different and better than their perception? It is a
:38:39. > :38:42.complex issue, but I will give an example. The NHS depends, in part,
:38:43. > :38:45.on doctors and nurses from the EU and other parts of the world who
:38:46. > :38:53.have come to bring their skills. One in five care workers come from
:38:54. > :38:57.outside the United Kingdom. EU migrants in the last 15 years have
:38:58. > :39:00.contributed ?20 billion more to the public finances than they have
:39:01. > :39:05.received in any form of benefits. What is it being spent on? Paying
:39:06. > :39:09.for schools, hospitals and other public services. The Government
:39:10. > :39:14.could establish a migration impact fund. It would be a good idea, such
:39:15. > :39:18.a good idea that the last Labour Government had one. David Cameron
:39:19. > :39:22.scrapped it when he came to power. That would provide additional
:39:23. > :39:25.financial assistance to areas where there are additional pressures
:39:26. > :39:30.because of the nature of migration. If you go to Boston, and you did a
:39:31. > :39:35.programme from their two three weeks ago, those people are picking the
:39:36. > :39:40.vegetables and keeping the industry growing, but it creates pressures in
:39:41. > :39:43.Boston itself. Wouldn't it be sensible to have a migration impact
:39:44. > :39:47.on? It is something David Cameron could do. It is a question of a
:39:48. > :39:54.Conservative Government that is not prepared to act. Yvette Cooper has
:39:55. > :39:58.been privately suggesting rather robustly that we need to start
:39:59. > :40:02.debating immigration in the Labour Party. It is the job of all
:40:03. > :40:07.politicians to listen to respond to what the public is saying. At the
:40:08. > :40:13.same time, our responsibility, particularly with nine days to go,
:40:14. > :40:21.is to to people, why, in our case, the labour movement is united. And
:40:22. > :40:26.it is important that all people understand that the Labour family is
:40:27. > :40:30.united in saying that it is in our economic interest, for jobs,
:40:31. > :40:33.investment, growth, security and our influence in the world, James. The
:40:34. > :40:37.world is changing, and it won't go back to where it was before. Written
:40:38. > :40:42.walking away will give us less influence in the world. If you're
:40:43. > :40:46.going to tackle migration, refugees, conflict, climate change, you have
:40:47. > :40:53.to do that by working with your neighbours. -- Britain walking away.
:40:54. > :40:56.Our relationship with our continental neighbours is really
:40:57. > :41:00.important to being able to influence what happens in the world,
:41:01. > :41:04.particularly for our children and grandchildren. You mentioned the
:41:05. > :41:11.polls, and they do show support among Labour posters. It is
:41:12. > :41:15.swinging. More people are moving into the Leave rather than the
:41:16. > :41:18.Remain camp will stop how has your party got things so wrong so far?
:41:19. > :41:23.Yellow might the British people, in the end, will make the decision
:41:24. > :41:28.about whether we will remain or leave. It is a responsibility every
:41:29. > :41:32.single one of us has. There are people who have not yet made up
:41:33. > :41:37.their mind, and I do think that both the benefits that Europe has brought
:41:38. > :41:41.in terms of jobs, investment and growth, and regions like the
:41:42. > :41:45.north-east, countries like Wales, they understand instinctively the
:41:46. > :41:47.importance of the support that comes from Europe and the opportunities
:41:48. > :41:54.that being part of this huge single market provides. I think a lot of
:41:55. > :41:57.people who have not yet made up their mind may say at the end of the
:41:58. > :42:01.day, I don't like this that about the EU. This is not a referendum on
:42:02. > :42:05.whether we love of thing about Europe. It is about whether we stay
:42:06. > :42:09.on leave. And I think a lot of people will say, you know what, I
:42:10. > :42:13.don't think this is the right step to take, because we are literally
:42:14. > :42:17.better together in an uncertain world by working in partnership with
:42:18. > :42:20.others. That is what, in the end, is the important thing about remaining
:42:21. > :42:26.in the EU. The public will decide. They will.
:42:27. > :42:29.Thank you, Hilary Benn. We will continue our conversation with
:42:30. > :42:32.Hilary Benn on our Facebook page right after Newsnight comes off
:42:33. > :42:47.there. He will take questions lie from our green room. -- live from
:42:48. > :42:51.our greenroom. Kirsty, I wonder whether a regional impact fund could
:42:52. > :42:56.affect things in the area where you are.
:42:57. > :43:01.That remains to be seen. We are joint by the shadow civil society
:43:02. > :43:07.Minister, and a former steelworker who supports Ukip and who voted in
:43:08. > :43:14.1975 to be out of the EU. First of all, and, not only is there a device
:43:15. > :43:18.between Remain in the Conservatives and Labour Party, but there are now
:43:19. > :43:22.seems to be a divide in labour about whether re-movement is sacrosanct.
:43:23. > :43:25.Where do you stand? It is important that Tom brought this to the surface
:43:26. > :43:30.because a ghost of the art of the issues. In this area, I have spoken
:43:31. > :43:34.to many people have been affected in terms of wages being pushed down. We
:43:35. > :43:38.need to talk about it and have solutions. There is nothing you can
:43:39. > :43:42.do on free movement itself within the countries that exist within the
:43:43. > :43:46.EU at the moment. It is all very well talking about new countries,
:43:47. > :43:50.but you can't do anything. You can have these discussions when you are
:43:51. > :43:58.at the table. In our manifesto last year, we wanted to stop companies
:43:59. > :44:02.from undercutting wages here. We have to have a thoughtful process to
:44:03. > :44:07.deliver this, and we have to look at practical solutions, not just bury
:44:08. > :44:11.our heads. Frank you worked in the steel industry all your life, and
:44:12. > :44:14.now you're having to take other jobs because the steel industry is
:44:15. > :44:20.disappearing. You have been speaking to workers who have their own
:44:21. > :44:24.concerns. I am speaking to a lot of union men from different walks of
:44:25. > :44:32.life. Only the other day, I had a chap come to my house. He was
:44:33. > :44:38.worried that there might be a shutdown at ICI. The chemicals
:44:39. > :44:44.company. Yes, across from where I live. He was a welder, a skilled
:44:45. > :44:49.man. When I got the details from another union chap, there was
:44:50. > :44:56.actually 70% foreign labour on that site. Now, what others might say to
:44:57. > :45:02.you is, your welder friend and others could go and work in mainland
:45:03. > :45:07.Europe. I don't think a lot of them... A lot of them had been there
:45:08. > :45:14.before. The chap I spoke to, he was working in Holland for a time. But
:45:15. > :45:18.like everywhere else, you get a bit homesick, so you come back, and you
:45:19. > :45:23.expect to find work in your own area. With the loss of steel, the
:45:24. > :45:30.chemical industry has been decimated through Europe, so there is less and
:45:31. > :45:37.less work. Is your allegiance to Ukip to do with the economy or to do
:45:38. > :45:42.with the issue of immigration? Is none, really. It started when Tony
:45:43. > :45:47.Blair went into power. That was when the Labour Party didn't exist any
:45:48. > :45:53.more. Right. So you were a Labour man up until then? I was. And, you
:45:54. > :45:58.will not fix this in nine days. It is becoming a big divide, and it
:45:59. > :46:02.seeks -- and it seems extraordinary to me that political leaders are
:46:03. > :46:06.changing the script so close to a referendum. It sounds as if people
:46:07. > :46:12.are being expedient in order to change the goat, without any ability
:46:13. > :46:16.to deliver change. It is important to talk about the number one issue
:46:17. > :46:21.on the doorstep. It is not enough to say we are listening but we don't
:46:22. > :46:25.have solutions. You spoke to Hilary Benn today and you heard him there -
:46:26. > :46:31.years at odds with Tom Watson's view. We have to have the
:46:32. > :46:36.discussion, but there is a range of views in the political parties and
:46:37. > :46:40.on the doorstep. We have to be in Europe to get companies to come and
:46:41. > :46:44.invest here. We can talk about the practicalities and how to protect
:46:45. > :46:53.jobs once we are at the table. You think it is on a knife edge? Yes.
:46:54. > :46:55.And you, too? Thank you for joining us tonight. That is all we have time
:46:56. > :47:02.for tonight.