:00:00. > :00:07.We're in Leicester tonight - a city united in pride
:00:08. > :00:10.at its winning football team, but as divided as the rest
:00:11. > :00:17.of the country as to who should win the referendum.
:00:18. > :00:21.# Are we gonna stay, are we gonna Brexit?
:00:22. > :00:25.# Are we gonna stay, are we gonna Brexit?
:00:26. > :00:29.The city loves its sport, but the referendum is
:00:30. > :00:35.A warning this evening, that Britain may get a red card.
:00:36. > :00:39.From the moment that Parliament had passed the legislation
:00:40. > :00:42.and enacted it into law, I think they would have
:00:43. > :00:44.been entitled to say, you've chosen to go, just like that.
:00:45. > :00:47.And we can no longer have a relationship
:00:48. > :00:53.And however we vote, politics may never be the same.
:00:54. > :01:01.The Prime Minister's former confidant Steve Hilton is with us
:01:02. > :01:05.to tell us why he's on the opposite side to his old chum, David Cameron.
:01:06. > :01:09.Sir, do you mind not looking at me like that all of the time?
:01:10. > :01:16.And we've been to the Orlando killer's home town in Florida.
:01:17. > :01:24.I am going to get my concealed weapon permit.
:01:25. > :01:42.We've brought our roadshow right here, in the shadow
:01:43. > :01:45.of the cathedral, which is famously now home to the remains
:01:46. > :01:50.Back in his day, the great power struggle was between
:01:51. > :01:53.It ran for decades, and led to political
:01:54. > :02:00.And today, in a less violent way, we find politics in turmoil again.
:02:01. > :02:05.The great schism now is partly between Remain and Leave -
:02:06. > :02:07.but increasingly it also seems to be defined by broader philosophies that
:02:08. > :02:11.Are you for radical change or the status quo?
:02:12. > :02:17.For the European model of society, or for something different?
:02:18. > :02:27.We're exploring these divisions around the country this week.
:02:28. > :02:30.The Newsnight truck had to pack up and say farewell to a damp
:02:31. > :02:32.Middlesbrough this morning for the next leg of its
:02:33. > :02:39.It's stopping in a variety of contrasting locations this week.
:02:40. > :02:42.It started in Glasgow on Monday, journeyed through the English North
:02:43. > :02:44.and Midlands, and it's heading to the market town
:02:45. > :02:47.of Chipping Norton tomorrow and finally
:02:48. > :02:52.But it's arrived in Leicester today.
:02:53. > :02:57.A Midlands city that's been on something of a winning streak.
:02:58. > :03:02.A location with a great sense of history, going back to Roman
:03:03. > :03:05.times, with the most famous nondescript car park in the world,
:03:06. > :03:15.But Leicester has also successfully tied itself to the future,
:03:16. > :03:17.a big higher education sector, two successful universities,
:03:18. > :03:21.a specialism in space science and home to the National Space Centre.
:03:22. > :03:27.It is one of the most diverse cities in the country, it has attracted
:03:28. > :03:30.immigrants for many decades, after many of the Ugandan Asians
:03:31. > :03:33.settled here when kicked out of their country in the '70s.
:03:34. > :03:35.Fewer than half of the city population is white British.
:03:36. > :03:39.Leicester is firmly on its way into Europe in one respect.
:03:40. > :03:43.It will be playing in the Champions League next season.
:03:44. > :03:46.The local team's success has invigorated the city's
:03:47. > :03:50.sense of identity, but what does that mean?
:03:51. > :03:54.Is that the plucky spirit that says we can survive alone and should
:03:55. > :03:58.leave the EU or do winners feel that the future lies in Europe?
:03:59. > :04:02.Labour council, Labour mayor, two Labour MPs.
:04:03. > :04:07.Labour is a broad coalition, as is the Conservative Party,
:04:08. > :04:10.and potentially the EU threatens to upset those coalitions.
:04:11. > :04:13.Before we look at some of that, let's talk to our political editor
:04:14. > :04:21.And Nick, we hear tonight there is a stark warning about how
:04:22. > :04:24.Vote Leave's blueprint for leaving the EU could actually lead to us
:04:25. > :04:35.Yes, I've been talking to the former Attorney General, Dominic Grieve,
:04:36. > :04:40.who has been telling me that the Vote Leave road map for taking
:04:41. > :04:44.Britain out of the EU could lead to what is describing as a chaotic
:04:45. > :04:48.dejection. We've seen some serious blue on blue shelling in the
:04:49. > :04:52.referendum campaign but here we have a former Tory Attorney General
:04:53. > :04:56.saying that the current Tory Lord Chancellor is laying out a plan that
:04:57. > :05:01.would place Britain in breach of its EU treaty obligations and would
:05:02. > :05:07.raise questions about Britain's international reputation for
:05:08. > :05:11.upholding the rule of law. They intend, even before we have left, to
:05:12. > :05:16.remove the authority of the European Court of Justice, and to carry out a
:05:17. > :05:20.number of other steps which would be in breach of our EU treaty
:05:21. > :05:24.regulations. It would be possible for our partners to turn around and
:05:25. > :05:28.say that we have effectively left the European Union and in those
:05:29. > :05:31.circumstances the advantages of membership, including for example
:05:32. > :05:40.access to the single market, have gone. At that point we would be
:05:41. > :05:46.rejected? Effectively rejected. An interesting intervention by Dominic
:05:47. > :05:49.Grieve. Just how bad do you think these Tory divisions are? The
:05:50. > :05:54.atmosphere is pretty sour at the moment. This evening we had Michael
:05:55. > :05:58.Gove suggesting he might resign from the Cabinet if George Osborne goes
:05:59. > :06:01.ahead with his plan for a Brexit budget. Michael Gove and the Vote
:06:02. > :06:06.Leave campaign say that the budget is scaremongering and is a panic
:06:07. > :06:11.move and there would be no need for it. Now, George Osborne says that
:06:12. > :06:18.Michael Gove and around 70 Conservative MPs who are making
:06:19. > :06:20.those points are predictable and this is the usual campaign
:06:21. > :06:24.skirmishes you would expect at this stage. George Osborne is saying
:06:25. > :06:28.really that he wants to focus the campaign on the economy and there
:06:29. > :06:32.will be some pretty significant events over the next 48-hour is.
:06:33. > :06:36.Tomorrow night he delivers his annual speech at the Mansion house
:06:37. > :06:40.in the presence of the governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney.
:06:41. > :06:42.George Osborne is having to write a speech on his own with a view
:06:43. > :06:48.political advisers because the Treasury civil servants are not
:06:49. > :06:53.allowed to help him at this stage -- with a few advisers. There is a
:06:54. > :06:56.feeling in the Treasury that this is a crucial period because of Friday
:06:57. > :07:00.we have the IMF delivering its annual report on the state of the UK
:07:01. > :07:05.economy and guess what it's going to say? If you leave the EU there will
:07:06. > :07:08.be a danger to the UK economy. Not all plain sailing for the
:07:09. > :07:12.Chancellor, I've spoken to a former cabinet minister who knows the
:07:13. > :07:17.chance well and he said of the Brexit budget, George is a gambler,
:07:18. > :07:20.he has done a last throw of the dice to frighten people into staying in
:07:21. > :07:25.the European Union and this cabinet minister fears it isn't working and
:07:26. > :07:29.as things stand at the moment, he thinks that Britain is on the verge
:07:30. > :07:31.of voting to leave and he is a Remain supporter. Thank you for
:07:32. > :07:33.joining us. I'm joined here now,
:07:34. > :07:35.by a prominent Brexit supporter, Once a close and senior
:07:36. > :07:43.advisor to David Cameron, a friend too, he has always been
:07:44. > :07:58.seen as more radical, Talking about the Brexit budget of
:07:59. > :08:02.George Osborne, wondering what you thought of that, is that a
:08:03. > :08:08.reasonable campaign technique? I saw it this morning and my heart sank,
:08:09. > :08:12.to be honest. I think be the best response to it is what the Prime
:08:13. > :08:16.Minister said, not that long ago, a few weeks ago when he said that
:08:17. > :08:22.actually Britain would do perfectly fine outside the EU. We are Great
:08:23. > :08:26.Britain and we can do great. He things that on balance we are better
:08:27. > :08:29.off in, other people might have a different opinion. That's a
:08:30. > :08:32.reasonable way of putting it but since he said that at the start of
:08:33. > :08:37.the campaign, what's happened is that it's got less and less
:08:38. > :08:42.reasonable and more hysterical. Today was the worst example of that.
:08:43. > :08:45.Do you think the Chancellor has lost so much credibility as a result of
:08:46. > :08:50.this that it's difficult to imagine him delivering a real budget now?
:08:51. > :08:56.Can you trust him now? I wouldn't go as far as that, I would just say...
:08:57. > :09:00.They keep telling us that it is a serious long-term decision, more
:09:01. > :09:04.important than any general election, something that will affect us for 40
:09:05. > :09:11.years. Please can we take it seriously? Are you satisfied with
:09:12. > :09:18.the honesty of the Leave campaign? There is the 350 million a week, for
:09:19. > :09:23.example. Are you happy with that? It isn't just about honesty. It is
:09:24. > :09:26.putting forward an argument and actually explaining why people
:09:27. > :09:31.should vote one way or the other. What you saw from the Leave campaign
:09:32. > :09:36.today is serious positive proposals about what they would do in the
:09:37. > :09:38.event of the vote going their way. That's a big contrast with the
:09:39. > :09:43.entirely negative stuff we're hearing the other side. I'm
:09:44. > :09:49.interested in the argument you've given for us leaving. You've framed
:09:50. > :09:55.it as a battle between the people and the establishment. Yes. Explain
:09:56. > :10:00.your argument because you've also used it to explain the popularity of
:10:01. > :10:04.Donald Trump. There's something underlying the anger and frustration
:10:05. > :10:09.that you are seeing, not just here, across Europe, but also in America,
:10:10. > :10:13.the sense that for many years now, probably decades, the world has been
:10:14. > :10:18.run according to a technocratic agenda that doesn't really change,
:10:19. > :10:22.whoever is in power, an agenda that is uncritical of globalisation and
:10:23. > :10:27.technological change, that prioritises efficiency above all
:10:28. > :10:32.else and that is callous about the impact on real people and their
:10:33. > :10:37.lives, and it do mine is -- it dehumanises them. People feel that
:10:38. > :10:42.they can't control the things that matter to them. People who think
:10:43. > :10:48.that Donald Trump is a disaster for the United States, should they also
:10:49. > :10:51.assume that we are not on Steve Hilton's side in the argument?
:10:52. > :11:00.Basically we don't want populist politics, therefore we should vote
:11:01. > :11:04.to remain? I'm wondering if that... I would bring in Bernie Sanders on
:11:05. > :11:09.the left. I don't think it is limited to one side. The real
:11:10. > :11:14.argument isn't about populism, it's actually about democracy in the true
:11:15. > :11:17.meaning of the word. In other words, people having a say and control over
:11:18. > :11:22.the things that matter to them. Michael Gove said, I think I'm
:11:23. > :11:29.quoting him correctly, people in this country have had enough of
:11:30. > :11:34.experts. Do you agree? Is that an official doctrine of those who want
:11:35. > :11:42.to leave? I think it's striking that when those who want us to stay in
:11:43. > :11:45.the EU wheel out the technocratic elite who have this very common
:11:46. > :11:50.view, this kind of group think about how things should be organised, they
:11:51. > :11:56.have an interest in perpetuating the world they are in. I don't think
:11:57. > :12:00.it's necessarily about experts. Doctors think that antibiotics help
:12:01. > :12:09.you with bacteria, do you reject that advice? You would like an
:12:10. > :12:14.expert trained and accredited mechanic? It isn't necessarily about
:12:15. > :12:19.experts, it's about the opinion of a certain group of people who have
:12:20. > :12:22.been in power and control, not just government but business and the
:12:23. > :12:29.bureaucracy and is exemplified by what happens in Brussels. Is it one
:12:30. > :12:33.group who encompasses Jeremy Corbyn and Caroline Lucas of the Greens and
:12:34. > :12:41.encompasses David Cameron and George Osborne, the IMF? This isn't one big
:12:42. > :12:45.cabal of people, it is quite a varied bunch. It is, but that
:12:46. > :12:49.doesn't mean they are right. The real argument here is about how we
:12:50. > :12:54.organise and govern ourselves in the face of what is a very rapidly
:12:55. > :12:58.changing world, we can't predict what's going to happen in the
:12:59. > :13:02.future. I think it comes down to the ability of us to control the things
:13:03. > :13:11.that will enable us to boost our economy, create jobs. Why should the
:13:12. > :13:15.public trust you, fairly established, married to a PR person,
:13:16. > :13:23.you live in California, you are wealthy? Why should they trust you,
:13:24. > :13:27.the company you are keeping in the argument, George Galloway, Nigel
:13:28. > :13:30.Farage? A great question, it isn't about trusting me, it is about
:13:31. > :13:35.trusting themselves, putting power in people's hands, that is what this
:13:36. > :13:39.is about and that is what I have argued for in politics, not just in
:13:40. > :13:43.relation to the EU, but the reforms we worked on in government, it is
:13:44. > :13:48.about decentralising power, giving people control over the things that
:13:49. > :13:51.matter to them. That is the way that the world is going. I see this
:13:52. > :13:56.clearly where I run a business in Silicon Valley, a lot of it is
:13:57. > :14:00.powered by technology and it is about a centralising power and
:14:01. > :14:03.giving people control. That is happening everywhere apart from
:14:04. > :14:09.government and the EU is the worst example of that. You worked for
:14:10. > :14:16.David Cameron, a project to detoxify the Conservative Party, people you
:14:17. > :14:20.are sitting on the opposite side of the debate, to change the party. You
:14:21. > :14:25.know that if we vote the way that you would like us to vote, the
:14:26. > :14:28.project is finished, isn't it? David Cameron is finished, the Tory party
:14:29. > :14:33.will have changed and it's over. But the real project was not to
:14:34. > :14:38.transform the Tory party but the country, to implement reforms to
:14:39. > :14:41.public services, schools, welfare, to help people improve living
:14:42. > :14:46.standards. That work will go on and I think that the best way of
:14:47. > :14:51.continuing that and getting the kind of decentralisation of power that I
:14:52. > :14:54.want to see at all levels is to vote lead and then for David Cameron to
:14:55. > :14:57.stay on as Prime Minister because I can't think of anyone better to lead
:14:58. > :15:10.the process of taking us out of the EU.
:15:11. > :15:16.Do you think David Cameron will be Prime Minister in 18 months' time?
:15:17. > :15:21.Yes. The idea that he should be deposed because of a referendum is
:15:22. > :15:25.as anti-enigmatic as the EU itself. He was elected by the British people
:15:26. > :15:28.last year for a full term, knowing that he was going to have a
:15:29. > :15:32.referendum. There was no condition attached to that. He was elected by
:15:33. > :15:35.the people of this country to serve as Prime Minister, and that is what
:15:36. > :15:50.he should do. Thank you very much indeed.
:15:51. > :15:52.Let's get more of the Leicester perspective now.
:15:53. > :15:55.It's not really a typical city - but then nowhere is.
:15:56. > :15:57.It has had international attention squared, for winning the Premier
:15:58. > :15:59.League and for discovering and then burying Richard III.
:16:00. > :16:04.Secunder Kermani has been finding out.
:16:05. > :16:09.Leicester's rise to the top of the Premiership
:16:10. > :16:12.last month captured the nation's hearts and covered the city in blue
:16:13. > :16:15.Both sides of the referendum could claim their success
:16:16. > :16:19.On the one hand, they are plucky underdogs who defeated the
:16:20. > :16:27.On the other, they are now playing in Europe and got
:16:28. > :16:35.We asked voters paying homage at the team mural.
:16:36. > :16:39.Personally I think we've too many people in the country.
:16:40. > :16:41.Some of those immigrants include Riyad
:16:42. > :16:46.Exactly, exactly, yes, that's a very good
:16:47. > :16:49.point, but it's just how I feel about it.
:16:50. > :16:56.Going down and down in good lookingness.
:16:57. > :16:59.Most of our supermarket food comes from the EU.
:17:00. > :17:02.If we say we are going to be out, that's going to be
:17:03. > :17:05.a lot more expensive to us, we are not going to have negotiable
:17:06. > :17:07.prices, there are going to sell it to us
:17:08. > :17:11.more expensive because we'll be a separate body now and we have to
:17:12. > :17:16.One of Leicester's football team's big
:17:17. > :17:20.successes has been to harness the support of the City's diverse
:17:21. > :17:29.Here, white Britons are actually a minority and this street
:17:30. > :17:32.was named as the most diverse in the whole country.
:17:33. > :17:33.Whilst there is genuine pride in multiculturalism
:17:34. > :17:36.here, opinions on the referendum are as divided as anywhere else.
:17:37. > :17:39.NEWSREEL: Mr Panesar has come a long way from
:17:40. > :17:45.Before 2004, one of the most significant waves of immigration to
:17:46. > :17:47.Leicester came with Idi Amin exiled thousands of Indian-origin
:17:48. > :17:55.One of the first to arrive on what is now
:17:56. > :17:57.called the city's Golden Mile was this family of jewellers.
:17:58. > :17:58.Did you ever think about commissioning
:17:59. > :18:01.anything after Leicester won the football?
:18:02. > :18:04.Yeah, we were thinking about making a fox or something.
:18:05. > :18:09.To tell you the truth I'm an Arsenal supporter, so it's very hard for me
:18:10. > :18:15.There should be a freedom for everyone to move around
:18:16. > :18:19.but the problem I've got at the moment is a lot of these
:18:20. > :18:24.immigrants that are coming into England to
:18:25. > :18:27.work, they are not spending their money in this country.
:18:28. > :18:30.All the money they are earning is going back to their country.
:18:31. > :18:33.Isn't that what a lot of people used to say about British
:18:34. > :18:37.Asians, before? No...
:18:38. > :18:40.That they were sending money to build houses back home?
:18:41. > :18:41.No, the British Asians, especially at our
:18:42. > :18:44.time, when we came here in '72 from Kampala, we came with hardly
:18:45. > :18:47.anybody - all the money we made here we invested
:18:48. > :18:51.If you look at this small island of ours, it ruled the whole world.
:18:52. > :18:54.It even ruled America, that's how powerful we were.
:18:55. > :18:58.I'm sure now we can stand on our own feet and run
:18:59. > :19:02.our country the way we want to run our country.
:19:03. > :19:05.Leicester is a Labour city, with ethnic minorities here
:19:06. > :19:08.providing much of their support, but neither of those facts are
:19:09. > :19:11.necessarily translating into automatic support for remain.
:19:12. > :19:14.necessarily translating into automatic support for Eemain.
:19:15. > :19:16.necessarily translating into automatic support for Remain.
:19:17. > :19:19.We've got Muslim players on the Leicester
:19:20. > :19:25.team, we've got Kante, Inler, we've got Mahrez.
:19:26. > :19:27.Watching the Euros is long-time Leicester fan Riaz Khan.
:19:28. > :19:31.As his family sit down to break their fast for
:19:32. > :19:33.Ramadan, they are weighing up which side to support.
:19:34. > :19:35.We've just started to take the kids to European cities.
:19:36. > :19:38.We were in Barcelona earlier this year.
:19:39. > :19:41.And obviously that's so easy to just take your passport, jump on
:19:42. > :19:44.Eurostar, catch a plane, and you don't have
:19:45. > :19:47.to worry about visas and things like that.
:19:48. > :19:52.Yeah, I think it would have an impact on us.
:19:53. > :19:55.The NHS is at breaking point, schools are at
:19:56. > :19:58.breaking point, there's waiting list for kids to go to school because,
:19:59. > :20:01.When a migrant worker comes here, he brings his whole
:20:02. > :20:06.Is the government's responsibility that there is a
:20:07. > :20:08.school places shortage or if there are strains on the NHS, that's
:20:09. > :20:11.something they should be dealing with and not blaming being part of
:20:12. > :20:16.I mean, they are in Brussels telling us what to do here.
:20:17. > :20:19.Which I think is a bit ridiculous, really.
:20:20. > :20:22.We are British, we should be able to dictate our own laws.
:20:23. > :20:24.But however, saying that, at the same time, on
:20:25. > :20:28.the other hand, the EU got good human rights laws.
:20:29. > :20:32.So I'm 50-50, I'm still on the fence here, I don't know what to do.
:20:33. > :20:44.Leicester City managed to inspire support from a massive
:20:45. > :20:48.cross-section of society, like this rap by local MCs The Squad.
:20:49. > :20:56.campaign knows it needs to generate, especially amongst younger voters.
:20:57. > :21:02.More likely to back them, but less likely to vote.
:21:03. > :21:10.Some people I've spoken to, they are like, I don't
:21:11. > :21:13.even care if I vote or not because it's not going to affect
:21:14. > :21:15.them, their vote isn't going to make any difference.
:21:16. > :21:17.Their view is that it's destined, whatever is going to
:21:18. > :21:20.be, and they don't have no control in it.
:21:21. > :21:23.The way a lot of people feel with politics, because a lot of the
:21:24. > :21:26.time they feel that politicians are always saying one thing just
:21:27. > :21:28.to get your vote and then they go against what they said.
:21:29. > :21:31.I see those Question Time things and stuff and it looks
:21:32. > :21:34.When you're watching it and they're all asking
:21:35. > :21:39.I think to myself, let's just live in peace.
:21:40. > :21:44.Some people are still stuck in that mindset where
:21:45. > :21:45.they say that Britain is a world power.
:21:46. > :21:48.Britain ain't no world power any more, know what I mean?
:21:49. > :21:50.They used to be a colonial power, a world
:21:51. > :21:55.Forget all of that, man. Times have changed.
:21:56. > :21:57.To me, personally, I see us as global citizens.
:21:58. > :22:00.I should be able to go anywhere I want to go without anyone
:22:01. > :22:03.being able to restrict me, the same for people in other parts of
:22:04. > :22:08.Are we going to stay, are we going to Brexit?
:22:09. > :22:11.So if you can wrap about Leicester City, can you rap about
:22:12. > :22:14.So the topic in question, the EU referendum
:22:15. > :22:16.But to be honest, I don't trust Boris
:22:17. > :22:17.Mantell is lying every other sentence
:22:18. > :22:20.But if it's better for the youth, Brexit
:22:21. > :22:24.Things get better before they get worse, but in
:22:25. > :22:29.But some say stay in the EU, and some say stay
:22:30. > :22:32.My decision made suede, don't know if I'm going to vote anyway
:22:33. > :22:35.But at the end of the day, more education, more education for youse
:22:36. > :22:49.To vote, especially for the young generation
:22:50. > :22:55.I am joined by a panel of people from Leicester and neighbouring
:22:56. > :22:59.towns and villages. Good evening to you and thanks for coming down here
:23:00. > :23:02.to the cathedral tonight. Let's have a distinctively Leicester debate
:23:03. > :23:10.about this, and let's start with immigration. How many of you think
:23:11. > :23:18.immigration is an issue or problem? Both of you are Brexiteers. It is
:23:19. > :23:23.not a problem for me, in the sense that I am not anti-immigrant, I am
:23:24. > :23:27.not a little Englander. I think the problem with the immigration debate
:23:28. > :23:31.is how it is framed. When my dad came over in 1969, he had a job
:23:32. > :23:35.lined up, an employer had to send a piece of paper over to India for him
:23:36. > :23:39.to come here. Because he would not getting, because most of the
:23:40. > :23:45.immigration is taken up by EU citizens. So the debate in my view
:23:46. > :23:48.is wrong. Do you think more non-EU immigration would be allowed if we
:23:49. > :23:53.vote to come out? A lot of people are just saying, we are going to get
:23:54. > :23:56.it... I think that is a very key point. The whole thing about EU is
:23:57. > :24:01.not that you are anti-immigrant or you are racist. Watts of people I
:24:02. > :24:06.know are not racist at all but they do not want to be in the EU. We keep
:24:07. > :24:11.getting hit with that stick, that we are racist. With the immigration,
:24:12. > :24:17.300,000, I do not want to go into figures... But like I said, there is
:24:18. > :24:21.a whole world out there. At the moment people say, we want to build
:24:22. > :24:25.a wall around Britain. We don't, we want to take the EU wall down so
:24:26. > :24:31.that we can be trading with the rest of the world. So, community
:24:32. > :24:36.relations here, comfortable or what? Coughed above. We have obviously
:24:37. > :24:39.people that are badly behaved at times but most of the time people
:24:40. > :24:47.are quite good. I was just thinking about what he just said about people
:24:48. > :24:53.coming from outside Europe. I think if we were to come out of the EU, if
:24:54. > :24:59.the Brexiteers got their case, which is based on xenophobia and sometimes
:25:00. > :25:02.even racism, I think that actually, it would strengthen their argument
:25:03. > :25:07.and we would actually have less people coming in from outside the EU
:25:08. > :25:13.as well. I think it would unleash... You are a student here and a
:25:14. > :25:17.Brexiteer. You are studying history at Leicester university. You were
:25:18. > :25:25.shaking your head in the yes, a think it is very easy to label
:25:26. > :25:29.someone who is... It is easy to label somebody as racist. But I do
:25:30. > :25:33.not think anyone on this side of the date has ever said that immigration
:25:34. > :25:37.is bad. In fact we think it is a very positive thing for the country.
:25:38. > :25:43.And in fact we would welcome the chance to encourage more immigrants
:25:44. > :25:50.from the rest of the world. How many immigrant families, second, third
:25:51. > :25:53.generation, people from families who have arrived in the last 50 years,
:25:54. > :25:59.how many of them are worried about immigration? I am undecided. I think
:26:00. > :26:04.the immigration issue is a non-issue. I am a product of
:26:05. > :26:08.immigration. We were very fortunate for our families to be allowed into
:26:09. > :26:12.the country and in my opinion, we have made a success of it. I think
:26:13. > :26:16.the interesting thing is that there is a lot of scaremongering which
:26:17. > :26:19.goes on. We work in financial services so we do mortgages for the
:26:20. > :26:22.Polish and all of the other immigrants. Actually they seem as
:26:23. > :26:28.hard-working as everybody else that we have come across. I think it was
:26:29. > :26:32.Neil Kinnock who said, always the last wave of immigrants are the ones
:26:33. > :26:36.who say, we don't want... The ones before that, they are OK because
:26:37. > :26:42.they have settled in. But we don't like the last lot, is that...? Yes,
:26:43. > :26:47.I think so. As soon as you start picking on someone because of where
:26:48. > :26:54.you are from, you cannot hide that, Being slightly basis. That is how
:26:55. > :26:58.I see it. Why is it different for an EU immigrants to come here, but
:26:59. > :27:01.nobody is slapping off the Brits that go to Germany, who made the
:27:02. > :27:07.Spanish economy collapsed because they all left? Brits are straining
:27:08. > :27:10.other countries just as much as... Not that immigrants are straining
:27:11. > :27:17.our country. You hit the nail on the head. You say that it's go abroad.
:27:18. > :27:22.Yes,, that's fine but the majority of people coming in at the moment
:27:23. > :27:25.are from the EU. I am saying, why would don't we open it up to the
:27:26. > :27:32.whole world? Britain was part of the Commonwealth. They would not want to
:27:33. > :27:35.come, would they? I think that is a good point on which to end it. I
:27:36. > :27:38.want to talk about some other things. You might have heard the
:27:39. > :27:45.Steve Hilton interview, and this framing of the debate as one between
:27:46. > :27:55.an establishment and the public. You are a businessman, you are a
:27:56. > :27:59.Bremainer... Nobody has got the answers, there is so much
:28:00. > :28:04.uncertainty. Nobody has the numbers. We don't know who to believe. For me
:28:05. > :28:09.as a businessman, it is all about risk and risk appetite. I don't have
:28:10. > :28:12.the appetite for risk, because on the 24th of June, I don't know what
:28:13. > :28:17.is going happen. The only thing I know is that the colour of my
:28:18. > :28:21.passport may change if we vote out, and a number of styles on it may
:28:22. > :28:25.change. In terms of what is going happen, we don't know. Do you buy
:28:26. > :28:29.the argument that there is such a thing as the establishment, and it
:28:30. > :28:35.is like the French Revolution, we have insurrection in the air? I
:28:36. > :28:39.would argue that it is establishment versus the people. I think the
:28:40. > :28:42.establishment has lost a lot of its credibility. When Cameron said we're
:28:43. > :28:47.going to get this great renegotiation and came back with
:28:48. > :28:51.nothing, and instead wraps it up as this brilliant steel for Britain, he
:28:52. > :28:54.loses credibility. Jeremy Corbyn the same, has been and to Europe for
:28:55. > :29:00.many years, and suddenly is pro-Europe. Don't you think, because
:29:01. > :29:03.Jeremy Corbyn has the potential to be Prime Minister when we are going
:29:04. > :29:10.to be either in or out, that's why he has changed his mind? He has no
:29:11. > :29:13.principles, either. Just because you change your opinion, does not mean
:29:14. > :29:19.you don't have any principles. You are a Labour councillor... The point
:29:20. > :29:22.of having a debate is for people to change their mind, that is the whole
:29:23. > :29:27.point of politics. It does not show that Jeremy Corbyn is a lack of
:29:28. > :29:32.principle. He has always said that he has problems with some things
:29:33. > :29:36.about the EU. We going to have to argue in our own time because we are
:29:37. > :29:42.out of time. Thank you all of you very much indeed for coming in. I am
:29:43. > :29:48.going to continue asking questions of Steve Hilton now. But not my
:29:49. > :29:53.questions, your questions. We are going to go on Facebook. You can
:29:54. > :30:00.find it on the Newsnight Facebook H. And you can fire questions in. Join
:30:01. > :30:11.us for that. Back to you in London. I will be on the truck tomorrow
:30:12. > :30:12.night in Chipping Norton, David Cameron's constituency.
:30:13. > :30:15.is one of the most famous lines in film.
:30:16. > :30:18.Well, the billionaire businessman Sir Phillip Green seemed to be
:30:19. > :30:20.channelling Robert de Niro at the Business and Pensions
:30:21. > :30:22.Committee when he aggressively took on one MP.
:30:23. > :30:25.But his pugnacity was matched by an apology to all the BHS staff
:30:26. > :30:28.caught up in the collapse, and a promise to try to secure
:30:29. > :30:32.A surprise, given that some MPs thought he wouldn't even show up.
:30:33. > :30:42.It was billed as the ultimate showdown.
:30:43. > :30:53.Sir, do you mind not looking at me like that all the time?
:30:54. > :30:59.Put your glasses back on, you look better with your glasses on.
:31:00. > :31:02.Up until now we have doing pretty good.
:31:03. > :31:06.I think that is an unnecessary statement, I think you should
:31:07. > :31:09.withdraw it and I think it is very rude.
:31:10. > :31:13.I don't like the way you're asking me that question.
:31:14. > :31:20.On what possible basis would I want to stop somebody buying
:31:21. > :31:33.Theatrics aside, Sir Philip Green clearly had a few key points
:31:34. > :31:41.He said he just made a bad call in selling to Dominic Chappell.
:31:42. > :31:44.He said he regretted and apologised for what had happened.
:31:45. > :31:47.And he said that even now he is working to try and find
:31:48. > :31:50.a solution to protect the pension benefits of BHS's workforce.
:31:51. > :31:53.But he seemed less keen to be drawn on some details in what had become
:31:54. > :32:02.an intricate web of he said, she said claims and counterclaims.
:32:03. > :32:08.One key issue, the pensions of 20,000 BHS staff.
:32:09. > :32:16.We will sort it, we will find a solution.
:32:17. > :32:18.I want to give an assurance to the 20,000 pensioners,
:32:19. > :32:24.But there was little further detail on offer.
:32:25. > :32:27.And the pensions regulator today said it had not received
:32:28. > :32:32.Back when the pension fund was sliding into deficit,
:32:33. > :32:36.Sir Philip's grip on the problem seemed more limited.
:32:37. > :32:40.So there is no question that you can answer about any
:32:41. > :32:45.aspect of the pension fund between 2000 and 2012?
:32:46. > :32:48.I would say, virtually no, is the answer.
:32:49. > :32:56.One thing did pique Sir Philip's interest.
:32:57. > :32:58.That was when the Pensions Protection Fund told BHS
:32:59. > :33:04.There was a lot of things going on in pensions at the time,
:33:05. > :33:08.but it was a massively deteriorating situation over a prolonged period.
:33:09. > :33:12.That seemed to receive less attention than the very small amount
:33:13. > :33:15.of money that the PPF levy was going to cost the business.
:33:16. > :33:17.So on some areas there was a lot of detail.
:33:18. > :33:20.In other, bigger picture areas which were certainly more important,
:33:21. > :33:27.Sir Philip may have a keen eye for detail on the shop floor,
:33:28. > :33:30.but today he stressed that in some areas he left the nitty-gritty
:33:31. > :33:43.vetting former bankrupt Dominic Chappell's suitability as a buyer.
:33:44. > :33:46.Sir Philip also said he took comfort in the advisers Mr Chappell had
:33:47. > :33:51.What I am saying to you is, rightly or wrongly, I took
:33:52. > :33:54.comfort from those two firms representing him,
:33:55. > :33:57.their respective firms being present, doing the sort
:33:58. > :34:00.of work they were doing, gave us some comfort.
:34:01. > :34:03.The fact that people have hired hands alongside them does not
:34:04. > :34:05.mean that it necessarily improves their credibility
:34:06. > :34:14.It may mean they may have people doing due diligence,
:34:15. > :34:16.people very good at signing, preparing legal documentation.
:34:17. > :34:18.You have still got to look at the individual.
:34:19. > :34:21.And Sir Philip is an experienced businessman who I am sure knows
:34:22. > :34:23.an experienced businessman when he sees one.
:34:24. > :34:28.Ultimately, Sir Philip Green found himself under the microscope.
:34:29. > :34:31.You seem extraordinarily thin-skinned to quite
:34:32. > :34:33.courteous questions, as if you do not want to be
:34:34. > :34:35.challenged in any way, shape or form.
:34:36. > :34:48.In terms of that wider corporate governance point,
:34:49. > :34:51.did anybody, particularly a non-exec director say,
:34:52. > :34:53."I am not entirely certain, can we challenge you?"
:34:54. > :34:56.That does not seem to be the culture of the organisation?
:34:57. > :35:02.As things stand, it will soon disappear from our high streets.
:35:03. > :35:07.Its former owner seems a contradiction.
:35:08. > :35:09.Here is a fiery entrepreneur with strong opinions and a stronger
:35:10. > :35:16.Yet in terms of the detail of what went wrong, others
:35:17. > :35:27.Terrorism, Muslims, gun control, attitudes to LGBT people -
:35:28. > :35:29.Donald Trump has managed to take the appalling Orlando
:35:30. > :35:32.massacre and imbue it with his own brand of politics.
:35:33. > :35:36.Today, the Republican nominee said he would talk to the NRA about not
:35:37. > :35:40.allowing people on the terrorism watch list to buy guns,
:35:41. > :35:43.but he also repeated his call to ban Muslims from entering the US,
:35:44. > :35:46.even though the killer Omar Mateen was an American citizen.
:35:47. > :35:49.So, what will be the long term impact of the Orlando killings
:35:50. > :35:53.The small town of Fort Pierce where Mateen lived may
:35:54. > :35:58.It is also in the swing state of Florida.
:35:59. > :36:12.It was the railroad that first brought
:36:13. > :36:15.people to Fort Pierce - an
:36:16. > :36:18.unremarkable stop now along the Florida east coast main line.
:36:19. > :36:22.It's a town of fishing boats and seaside
:36:23. > :36:24.cafes, of churches and of small businesses, some thriving, some
:36:25. > :36:34.It is in many ways a typical Florida seaside town.
:36:35. > :36:38.But Fort Pierce was also home to Omar Mateen -
:36:39. > :36:41.the Orlando shooter prayed at this mosque.
:36:42. > :36:43.Everybody got in shock right now, you know?
:36:44. > :36:49.I see him, a lot of time he just come for pray.
:36:50. > :36:51.We had a little boy with him also sometimes, and
:36:52. > :36:57.This is a community under pressure, as America debates
:36:58. > :37:00.whether the problem is gun control or Islamic immigration.
:37:01. > :37:05.How do you feel as a Muslim in America?
:37:06. > :37:10.So, you know - this country been very nice to us,
:37:11. > :37:13.my kids also grown up in this country.
:37:14. > :37:21.So, if anything happens to actually this country, we
:37:22. > :37:28.The thing is that Omar Mateen is not the only person
:37:29. > :37:31.to have worshipped at this mosque who has been connected to Islamic
:37:32. > :37:35.In 2014, Munir Mohammad Abu Salha became the first known
:37:36. > :37:39.American suicide bomber to blow himself up in Syria.
:37:40. > :37:44.Back then it was the same story - the mosque said
:37:45. > :37:47.that he hadn't been radicalised here, that
:37:48. > :37:50.they've got no connections to extremism.
:37:51. > :37:53.Whatever the truth, it has put this little town right at
:37:54. > :38:02.Orlando was the deadliest shooting in this country's history.
:38:03. > :38:05.But there has been a mass shooting in America almost every day this
:38:06. > :38:09.month - and this is a pretty normal month.
:38:10. > :38:13.For some, the solution is simple - restrict the sale of guns.
:38:14. > :38:16.I ain't never touch a gun in my life.
:38:17. > :38:18.Never, these hands have never touch a gun.
:38:19. > :38:29.Weapon like that, no local person should have weapon like that.
:38:30. > :38:35.But others are just as convinced that the answer is more,
:38:36. > :38:41.It's a debate that rouses strong passions and fuels divisions
:38:42. > :38:55.He was an American but he was raised with...
:38:56. > :39:00.radical terrorist, you know, thinking.
:39:01. > :39:05.There's nobody else that's going to do it for us.
:39:06. > :39:08.I am going to get my concealed weapon permit.
:39:09. > :39:16.Has what happened in Orlando changed the way you think
:39:17. > :39:20.Oh, no, I have always been going for Trump.
:39:21. > :39:23.We've got to get rid of the politicians.
:39:24. > :39:25.Even if it's only for four years, let's get some things
:39:26. > :39:32.Maybe politicians will then learn, hey, we are put in here by
:39:33. > :39:35.the people, we are supposed to be working FOR the people, not working
:39:36. > :39:43.The partisan paralysis of the Obama years has left many in America
:39:44. > :39:46.disillusioned with the whole political class.
:39:47. > :39:50.Donald Trump is capitalising on that.
:39:51. > :39:53.In the aftermath of Orlando, he repeated
:39:54. > :39:58.his call for a halt to Muslim immigration.
:39:59. > :40:01.For many, such suggestion goes against the very
:40:02. > :40:06.But the mayor of Fort Pierce says that some people are
:40:07. > :40:13.People right now are saying, maybe we need to pay attention
:40:14. > :40:16.to what the Muslims are doing in our country.
:40:17. > :40:23.Americans don't want to hate - they do not want to do that.
:40:24. > :40:29.Fort Pierce has the same social and economic
:40:30. > :40:34.On one side of the tracks, the affluence of a town attracting
:40:35. > :40:39.On the other, the poverty of a country
:40:40. > :40:42.still suffering the after-effects of economic crisis.
:40:43. > :40:45.Florida is a swing state - it voted Bush in
:40:46. > :40:47.2000 - just - remember the "hanging chads".
:40:48. > :40:53.And then it voted Obama in both 2008 and
:40:54. > :40:58.2012, again by a really tight margin.
:40:59. > :41:04.And so events like the shooting in Florida really have the
:41:05. > :41:08.capacity to change, to determine the outcome of elections.
:41:09. > :41:11.They store the orange juice in here, and then on
:41:12. > :41:14.the other side of the wall is where they actually bottle it.
:41:15. > :41:17.Natalie's Orchid Island juice company produces
:41:18. > :41:21.3000 litres of Florida orange juice a week.
:41:22. > :41:25.It is a typical small, family-owned business.
:41:26. > :41:27.The eponymous Natalie says the tragedy in Orlando
:41:28. > :41:34.People do come together, people do mourn and they do
:41:35. > :41:38.and they do want to see our country as a whole succeed.
:41:39. > :41:41.But I think we are at the brink of change, with an
:41:42. > :41:44.And so I think each person stands on a certain side
:41:45. > :41:47.of the political spectrum, and I think it is only pushing them
:41:48. > :41:50.Investigators are still trying to figure out what exactly
:41:51. > :41:54.turned a man from Fort Pierce into a mass murderer.
:41:55. > :41:56.November's election is still some way off, but already
:41:57. > :42:08.the tragedy in Orlando has made its imprint on the campaign.
:42:09. > :42:16.That's all we have time for. Don't forget to join us in Chipping Norton
:42:17. > :42:19.tomorrow, the Prime Minister's backyard, as the referendum campaign
:42:20. > :42:29.ticks on. Until then, have a good night.
:42:30. > :42:30.The weather this week has been stuck in repeat