:00:09. > :00:17.Well, the great debate is finished and we had it all. Blue on blue, red
:00:18. > :00:22.on red, mayor on mayor. We are in the Wembley spin room with everybody
:00:23. > :00:24.declaring victory, trying to work out who has won an advantage in the
:00:25. > :00:26.EU endgame. They began by telling us
:00:27. > :00:32.they were going to have a positive and patriotic case, and they are
:00:33. > :00:35.back to Project Fear within moments. You might start off with platitudes,
:00:36. > :00:37.saying how wonderful immigration is. But your campaign hasn't
:00:38. > :00:39.been Project Fear, it's been Project Hate as far
:00:40. > :00:41.as immigration is concerned. From big stadium events
:00:42. > :01:01.to the most intimate. Hello, I am from vote Leave. I will
:01:02. > :01:02.be voting Leave. Great. All the people from Europe are taking our
:01:03. > :01:03.jobs. vote is chased down in the last
:01:04. > :01:09.hours of this tightest With just a day to go,
:01:10. > :01:12.we've banished the politicians, in favour of some of our most
:01:13. > :01:15.thoughtful public figures each of whom has passionate views
:01:16. > :01:17.on the EU: Howard Jacobson and Jack Monroe, Dreda Say Mitchell,
:01:18. > :01:20.and the historian Robert Tombs - they'll be discussing what this
:01:21. > :01:23.referendum, and the conduct of it, And we hear from Turkey,
:01:24. > :01:26.whose ambitions to join the EU have been used by those
:01:27. > :01:29.who want to Brexit as a stick to hit the Remainers
:01:30. > :01:31.with, and in the debate President Erdogan's chief advisor
:01:32. > :01:38.is here to hit back. Good evening from the spin
:01:39. > :01:43.room at Wembley Arena. The last big debate of this fraught
:01:44. > :01:48.referendum campaign has finished. And do these kind of debates
:01:49. > :01:56.really influence people Whatever the case, in such a tight
:01:57. > :02:02.campaign, on such a momentous issue, Joining me in a moment we'll explore
:02:03. > :02:07.the arguments made tonight with representatives from both
:02:08. > :02:09.sides, but first here's David Grossman with the key
:02:10. > :02:18.moments from the debate. Wembley Arena is where
:02:19. > :02:22.you can often see veteran Wembley Arena is where you can often
:02:23. > :02:25.see veteran bands who are, shall we say, not in their first
:02:26. > :02:27.bloom The audiences come to hear
:02:28. > :02:30.their greatest hits, That, too, is the job
:02:31. > :02:33.of tonight's politicians. Veterans of this
:02:34. > :02:36.long, long campaign. It is quite simply too close
:02:37. > :02:39.to polling day for them to Instead we've heard some
:02:40. > :02:43.very familiar numbers We are stronger, safer
:02:44. > :02:55.and better off in Europe. After the opening statements
:02:56. > :02:59.there were questions from the 6000 strong
:03:00. > :03:03.audience, picked to be half If we leave the EU, will this be
:03:04. > :03:11.the beginning of a slippery slope towards weaker employment and social
:03:12. > :03:18.rights in the UK? Thank you very much
:03:19. > :03:24.for your question. And the truth is, UK governments
:03:25. > :03:29.have led the way in providing good rights for workers,
:03:30. > :03:32.even before the European Union came It's been governments
:03:33. > :03:42.of all parties that have created minimum wage legislation,
:03:43. > :03:46.now a national living wage, shared parental leave, childfree tax care,
:03:47. > :03:51.tax free childcare and it is this country that is protecting
:03:52. > :03:56.worker's rights. We do not need an unelected,
:03:57. > :04:01.bureaucratic, European leaders who none of us can even name,
:04:02. > :04:05.let alone who any of us voted for, to tell us what our
:04:06. > :04:07.workers' rights should be. We hear a lot about holidays,
:04:08. > :04:11.but when the working time directive came in,
:04:12. > :04:14.two million people in Britain got Mainly women and
:04:15. > :04:23.mainly young people. Do you trust them, can they promise
:04:24. > :04:26.us today because I've heard a lot from some of these leading
:04:27. > :04:30.light in the Leave campaign and what they plan to do with
:04:31. > :04:33.employment rights. Can you promise us today that
:04:34. > :04:36.you will protect each and every We already have that,
:04:37. > :04:40.replied Boris Johnson. From the economy, the question
:04:41. > :04:43.moved on to immigration. My family and I have had first-hand
:04:44. > :04:45.experience How would it manage
:04:46. > :04:51.if we left the EU, given the UK's inability to train and retain
:04:52. > :04:57.sufficient doctors and nurses? I think the first thing we should do
:04:58. > :05:06.tonight in a discussion about immigration is celebrate
:05:07. > :05:08.immigrants and immigration and Because my family, my family has
:05:09. > :05:22.benefited massively from immigration, and so I know have
:05:23. > :05:25.millions of people watching tonight. The crucial thing is to
:05:26. > :05:27.look in an informed way Look at the numbers,
:05:28. > :05:33.look at the pressure that is large-scale, uncontrolled
:05:34. > :05:36.immigration is causing You don't fund schools and hospitals
:05:37. > :05:40.and you don't control And that is what leaving
:05:41. > :05:45.the EU would do. The final part of the debate
:05:46. > :05:47.was on sovereignty, Britain's relationship with
:05:48. > :05:53.the European Union. If we vote to remain
:05:54. > :05:55.on Thursday, how can we be sure in another 40 years, we won't find
:05:56. > :05:58.ourselves in a United Britain is a sovereign,
:05:59. > :06:12.independent country We retain control over our defence,
:06:13. > :06:18.over the pound, over interest rates, what we do
:06:19. > :06:21.in our schools, hospitals and public I just don't accept there
:06:22. > :06:25.is a trade-off between trade and I think democracy is
:06:26. > :06:31.enormously important. And finally by sort
:06:32. > :06:34.of an encore, the closing I know that the EU isn't perfect,
:06:35. > :06:39.but the benefits far And the Britain I know,
:06:40. > :06:44.the Britain that I love works with its friends
:06:45. > :06:46.and neighbours. They say we have no choice,
:06:47. > :06:58.but to bow down to Brussels. We say, they are woefully
:06:59. > :07:00.underestimating this country and With perhaps the strangest
:07:01. > :07:13.one night only gig in Wembley Arena's long history now
:07:14. > :07:16.over, we are now just hours away from polling day and we will find
:07:17. > :07:19.out which of these Joining me now is our political
:07:20. > :07:36.editor Nick Watt, Nick - Is it possible to say if there were
:07:37. > :07:40.winners and losers? This room is buzzing with talk of Ruth Davidson
:07:41. > :07:45.who emerged from something of an unknown star to many here. In
:07:46. > :07:48.personal terms it was a pretty standout performance from the leader
:07:49. > :07:51.of the Scottish Conservatives. I was speaking to her friend this
:07:52. > :07:56.afternoon, who said she could not wait to get stuck into Boris
:07:57. > :07:59.Johnson, and boy, did she. It is important to say she had a head
:08:00. > :08:02.start, she didn't live through the Scottish referendum and was on the
:08:03. > :08:06.winning side, so has lots of practice in these sorts of debates.
:08:07. > :08:12.At their use or somebody who doesn't really sound like a conservative,
:08:13. > :08:20.and the Remain side thinks she connects. They put them on the panel
:08:21. > :08:23.because they believe this referendum will be won or lost in the Labour
:08:24. > :08:28.heartlands and that was the message that they needed to get out to mind.
:08:29. > :08:32.But it is important to say I think this debate basically told us where
:08:33. > :08:35.this referendum is. It was symbolic of that. It's pretty evenly matched.
:08:36. > :08:40.Whilst everyone is excited about Ruth Davidson, the vote leave camp
:08:41. > :08:45.believe they did well in getting their fundamental message, take back
:08:46. > :08:50.control. Journalists may sneer, every sentence ended with take back
:08:51. > :08:53.control. But they are saying on these three core messages,
:08:54. > :08:58.immigration, the economy and Britain's relationship with the EU,
:08:59. > :09:02.people are hearing from vote Leave, vote for us and you take back
:09:03. > :09:07.control so they are quite pleased. You have a sense of the choreography
:09:08. > :09:12.of what might happen after the polls close? There is great excitement
:09:13. > :09:17.among the vote Leave camp, spinning like mad in the room behind us. What
:09:18. > :09:21.I understand is the moment the polls close the tone amongst vote Leave
:09:22. > :09:25.Tories will completely change. A letter will be published, signed by
:09:26. > :09:29.most of those Tory Brexit supporters saying the Prime Minister should
:09:30. > :09:33.stay on regardless of the result. If all the Tory vote Leave supporters
:09:34. > :09:38.do not sign a letter calling for him to go then he will not go. What will
:09:39. > :09:42.be interesting is that Boris Johnson and Michael Gove will have the sort
:09:43. > :09:45.of low-key response in the initial hours but when the result is
:09:46. > :09:49.declared in Manchester, the first voice you will hear from vote Leave
:09:50. > :09:54.will be the Labour chair of that campaign. She will make either a
:09:55. > :09:58.victory or a concession speech. Then you will not hear from Boris Johnson
:09:59. > :10:02.and Michael Gove until the Prime Minister has responded. And if the
:10:03. > :10:06.Prime Minister has lost this referendum, they will wait to hear
:10:07. > :10:10.what he says. There is a clear message coming out, the Prime
:10:11. > :10:14.Minister would have two except the vote Leave demand that the Prime
:10:15. > :10:19.Minister delays triggering article 50, that is the mechanism to take
:10:20. > :10:22.the UK out of the EU. One person said if the Prime Minister carries
:10:23. > :10:26.on with his plan to trigger that straightaway he would be thrown into
:10:27. > :10:31.the river, and you may well see some of these people leaving the Cabinet.
:10:32. > :10:36.Bit of a debate in vote Leave, some are saying we've got to have our
:10:37. > :10:41.mandate introduced, out of the EU, out of the single market. Others are
:10:42. > :10:42.saying maybe you could negotiate any easier association status. The
:10:43. > :10:45.mechanics are fascinating. Well arguably what happens
:10:46. > :10:48.here in the spin room is just as important as what happened
:10:49. > :10:53.earlier in the arena across the road - it's here where spin doctors
:10:54. > :10:56.and politicians try to bend the ears of journalists to convince them
:10:57. > :11:03.that their side won the day. Joining me now is the Energy
:11:04. > :11:18.Secretary and Remain Nice of you to come in. There was
:11:19. > :11:20.some thought a big gaping hole where the Prime Minister should have been?
:11:21. > :11:25.I didn't quite understand that comment. I was here at the debate
:11:26. > :11:30.and what I heard was emptiness from the vote Leave campaign, I heard no
:11:31. > :11:33.plan. Two days before this momentous decision and they were pressed
:11:34. > :11:37.relentlessly on what their plan was and we heard absolutely nothing.
:11:38. > :11:43.What was interesting, those from the vote remain side were very positive
:11:44. > :11:47.in their selling of the immigration message, and very passionate about
:11:48. > :11:52.it. It was something we hadn't heard. We'd heard a slightly
:11:53. > :11:55.apologetic line on immigration, targets missed, certainly from the
:11:56. > :11:59.Conservatives in the race so far. I think they were much rancour about
:12:00. > :12:04.immigration than the Leave campaign. They did say they know it is
:12:05. > :12:07.accommodated business but they rightly talked about the huge
:12:08. > :12:13.benefits we get from immigration as well. What I thought was a really
:12:14. > :12:17.revealing moment. Should it have come earlier? To be able to stand
:12:18. > :12:20.there and say don't knock immigration, it is doing great
:12:21. > :12:25.things. That is part of what we have been saying all along. When the vote
:12:26. > :12:28.Leave campaign were challenged on immigration there was a slight pause
:12:29. > :12:32.and shock, because they have been saying one thing to one group and
:12:33. > :12:35.another to another group. Some immigrants think their communities
:12:36. > :12:39.are going to grow, something they will get less, and that was revealed
:12:40. > :12:43.when they couldn't give a number and couldn't even say whether it would
:12:44. > :12:46.go up or down. This whole emphasis they have put on immigration is like
:12:47. > :12:50.the rest of their plan, there is no thought about how to deliver its.
:12:51. > :12:54.Some would say you've had the same problem when it comes to Turkey,
:12:55. > :12:57.sending out to messages. We've heard the Chancellor, David Cameron say
:12:58. > :13:01.it's not going to happen, it's simply not on the cards, not in my
:13:02. > :13:05.lifetime. We heard the chief adviser to the Turkish president say he was
:13:06. > :13:10.flabbergasted that Turkey will not be joining you, he said he thought
:13:11. > :13:15.Cameron was their chief supporter of membership. We almost this is a red
:13:16. > :13:20.herring, something that has been ruthlessly used. Are Turkey wrong?
:13:21. > :13:26.Bien Karo website says Turkey is in plans to join the EU. We have always
:13:27. > :13:29.said it will be 34 different chapters and on the current rate it
:13:30. > :13:33.could be by the end of the next century. You haven't managed to shut
:13:34. > :13:38.this down. We have to look at it and be clear what the Leave campaign are
:13:39. > :13:41.doing. As Sadiq Khan show, they've been sending out misleading leaflets
:13:42. > :13:46.talking about Turkey, mentioning only a number of countries, Turkey,
:13:47. > :13:49.Iraq, Iran. Sadiq Khan was right when he said they have elements in
:13:50. > :13:53.their campaign which is Project eight and they need to be much more
:13:54. > :13:57.careful about that. You have been accused of project fear. I wonder
:13:58. > :14:01.whether you go back over falling house prices, tax rises, emergency
:14:02. > :14:09.austerity budget, these prophecies of doom. You could have chosen away
:14:10. > :14:14.which was the sunlit uplands. You could have had making the campaign
:14:15. > :14:17.nicer place. I think it's absolutely right to talk about the benefits we
:14:18. > :14:21.have in the European Union which we have been doing. I was very pleased
:14:22. > :14:26.to hear Sadiq Khan mention climate change for the first time. The fact
:14:27. > :14:31.is on Thursday this decision is huge and the impact on the economy and to
:14:32. > :14:34.people's everyday lives, to their families, to the jobs, Frances
:14:35. > :14:38.O'Grady made that point very clearly. The Leave campaign are
:14:39. > :14:39.reckless with people's jobs. It is irresponsible and it's a leap into
:14:40. > :14:44.the dark. Thank you very much Well on Newsnight, we usually
:14:45. > :14:49.like to have people from both sides debating each other but due
:14:50. > :14:52.to a strict edict from No.10 barring 'blue on blue' discussions that has
:14:53. > :14:55.held to the very end of this campaign, we'll dismiss Amber Rudd
:14:56. > :15:02.now to be joined by her fellow Conservative minister and Leave
:15:03. > :15:13.campaigner Dominic Raab. What about this project hates,
:15:14. > :15:16.project fear becoming Project hate? I think they have doubled down on
:15:17. > :15:22.the scaremongering and the negativity. The standout thing for
:15:23. > :15:29.me, was Sadiq Khan, telling us how scared he is. On the contract
:15:30. > :15:32.inside, Boris Johnson saying Thursday's Independence Day, the
:15:33. > :15:39.optimistic message and the confidence that we want people to
:15:40. > :15:44.turn out and vote. What happened to the 350 million figure, I didn't
:15:45. > :15:51.hear that at all to night? I think it slipped in in various areas. I
:15:52. > :15:56.use it all the time, I can understand why people think 350
:15:57. > :16:02.million is a gross figure. When you get paid your salary by the BBC, I
:16:03. > :16:08.shudder to think how big it is. There was no mention of 350. I
:16:09. > :16:10.wonder if there is a quiet acknowledgement you overplayed your
:16:11. > :16:17.hand on that number and it has been ditched. There was a lot of talk
:16:18. > :16:24.about taking back control. The annual dividend. Taking back control
:16:25. > :16:32.is not the same as 350 being pulled out as a lie at times. 350 million
:16:33. > :16:38.is our gross contribution to the EU. There is no doubt about that. If
:16:39. > :16:42.they are so confident about it, why have we started getting different
:16:43. > :16:46.figures in the last week. Why did we not hear it at all to night if you
:16:47. > :16:54.are so confident? We have always talked about the gross and net. Once
:16:55. > :17:00.we leave the EU, we get annually ten billion. The reason why those
:17:01. > :17:04.figures are important, one is the amount we sent to Brussels and don't
:17:05. > :17:09.see back. The other is the amount of descent to Brussels and they spend
:17:10. > :17:12.on our behalf. We want it all back. You need people to explain the
:17:13. > :17:20.difference between the net and the game. I think they have got it by
:17:21. > :17:23.now. They need an expert voice. When you get your pay cheque every month,
:17:24. > :17:29.you have your salary and then your take-home. I will ask you a
:17:30. > :17:33.different thing, your campaign has, in the words of Michael Gove,
:17:34. > :17:39.ditched the words of experts? We have had economists, Michael
:17:40. > :17:46.Burridge has done important work on white freed up from the EU... You
:17:47. > :17:50.are still an expert fan? A lot of people on your side saying, we are
:17:51. > :17:53.done with experts, we don't believe them. I don't think lining up the
:17:54. > :18:00.establishment and saying we have a roll call of experts on our side. We
:18:01. > :18:02.can point to Sir Richard Dearlove, point to heads of the
:18:03. > :18:11.counterterrorism branch at the net police who are on our side. We have
:18:12. > :18:16.Sir Michael Rose, but that is not what people call about, a roll call
:18:17. > :18:20.of names, it is about the evidence. It is the passion and the optimism
:18:21. > :18:26.and what came out of this debate tonight, it is clearly on the side
:18:27. > :18:32.of Leave. As you can see, there is still a few hurdles going on beehive
:18:33. > :18:36.to me. This is when some of the politicians who were not in the
:18:37. > :18:41.debate, they come and talk us through what they thing happened.
:18:42. > :18:46.There is the pitter patter of tiny deadlines being written. Who knows,
:18:47. > :18:51.at this stage, there are that many undecided minds in this country. If
:18:52. > :18:53.there are, it is all to play for. We have two days.
:18:54. > :19:00.Well, one of the biggest issues of the referendum campaign has been
:19:01. > :19:05.It was raised as an issue in the BBC debate tonight.
:19:06. > :19:08.Those who want to Brexit have brandished possible Turkish
:19:09. > :19:10.membership of the EU as a reason to leave,
:19:11. > :19:13.with claims that millions of Turks could migrate to the UK,
:19:14. > :19:15.putting strains on communities and public services.
:19:16. > :19:19.Those who want Remain have been at pains to stress that there is NO
:19:20. > :19:21.chance of Turkey joining the EU in the near future.
:19:22. > :19:25.David Cameron himself has said they won't join until the year 3000.
:19:26. > :19:26.Earlier I spoke to Ilnur Cevik, the chief advisor
:19:27. > :19:31.I began by asking him what he made of that claim by the Prime Minister.
:19:32. > :19:41.We thought that Mr Cameron was our chief supporter for our quest
:19:42. > :19:48.Turks felt the British were the driving force
:19:49. > :19:51.behind our EU membership and that they were supporting
:19:52. > :19:59.But the way Mr Cameron put it, he didn't believe anything,
:20:00. > :20:04.apparently, in our full membership and he was only deceiving us.
:20:05. > :20:10.While, the others at least were very frank, they said we don't want
:20:11. > :20:17.The Germans said we will offer you another kind of partnership.
:20:18. > :20:24.But the way Mr Cameron put it, we feel really, really taken in.
:20:25. > :20:31.Because the way he's putting it, he says, they were never going to go
:20:32. > :20:34.in anyway and we just said we will go along with them.
:20:35. > :20:40.That kind of attitude really is deeply hurting the Turks.
:20:41. > :20:45.What do you think of David Cameron's position now, having said he wanted
:20:46. > :20:54.you in and now having said he sees little prospect of it?
:20:55. > :20:57.As I said, we still feel he was taking us for a ride.
:20:58. > :21:05.This kind of attitude is very, very insincere.
:21:06. > :21:08.We felt that when we needed him, he was going to be there.
:21:09. > :21:13.But now we feel that he was just saying, let me toy around with them,
:21:14. > :21:21.But let's not be the bad guys to tell them they won't get in.
:21:22. > :21:25.Do you believe in the David Cameron that wants you to join,
:21:26. > :21:27.or do you believe in the David Cameron that
:21:28. > :21:29.doesn't want you to join, which is it?
:21:30. > :21:33.Well, to be frank, the way he's putting it, we don't think
:21:34. > :21:42.The Leave campaign says that countries should be able
:21:43. > :21:46.to control their borders, because mass migration puts a huge
:21:47. > :21:49.strain on social services, health services, education services,
:21:50. > :21:54.Britain is already controlling its borders.
:21:55. > :21:57.Britain's borders are not uncontrollable.
:21:58. > :22:04.There is a Visa restriction for Turks in Britain.
:22:05. > :22:09.Even if the European Union lifted Turkey's Visa restrictions
:22:10. > :22:13.through the Schengen agreement, still there is a British Visa,
:22:14. > :22:16.so how can Turks enter Britain while the current Visa
:22:17. > :22:22.The Leave campaign say one of their arguments
:22:23. > :22:28.against Turkey joining, is because your crime rate is very
:22:29. > :22:31.high, your level of gun ownership is very high and they say,
:22:32. > :22:38.why should we give Turkey access to Britain in those circumstances?
:22:39. > :22:48.Secondly, there's no extraordinary situation in this country
:22:49. > :22:51.that we would export anything to Britain.
:22:52. > :22:54.But, besides that, who's going to come to Britain?
:22:55. > :23:03.Whatever exists in Britain, also exists in Turkey.
:23:04. > :23:06.We're not going to go there just because you produce Cadbury's
:23:07. > :23:10.chocolate and Maltesers, for god's sake.
:23:11. > :23:14.Do you think Britain should leave the EU?
:23:15. > :23:19.That's a choice for the British people.
:23:20. > :23:23.If they want to leave the European Union, they should.
:23:24. > :23:26.But they should not use us as an alibi.
:23:27. > :23:41.They should really deal with the nitty-gritty on why
:23:42. > :23:43.they should be leaving and they should not use us
:23:44. > :23:46.Mr Cevik, thank you very much indeed.
:23:47. > :23:51.Now, we bring you the antidote to tonight's stadium debate -
:23:52. > :23:57.the decisions made quietly by people talking amongst themselves
:23:58. > :23:59.in their own homes, discussing the issues in the pub
:24:00. > :24:02.Katie Razzall has been listening, and watching, as campaigners
:24:03. > :24:05.doggedly follow after every vote in a referendum which looks like
:24:06. > :24:25.With two days to go, we set up in one of London's Royal horrors to try
:24:26. > :24:29.to ascertain what is driving decision-making in the EU vote. You
:24:30. > :24:37.can make a lot of new friends with some garden furniture, a bit of
:24:38. > :24:45.linen, posters and a selfie stick. Because of him. You don't like David
:24:46. > :24:54.Cameron? Which one do you prefer? That one. Which one do you want to
:24:55. > :24:57.pick? Will you hold that? The question is straightforward, it
:24:58. > :25:01.should we be in or out of the EU. But that question has apparently
:25:02. > :25:11.split Britain down the middle. Which side do you trust? That is what we
:25:12. > :25:17.as the people of Kingston upon Thames. How are you making the
:25:18. > :25:25.decision? Who do you trust? I am an arrogant old man, I do what I want.
:25:26. > :25:29.My dad did not fight in the war for this. How do you decide what is a
:25:30. > :25:34.fact and what isn't? You listen carefully to what people are saying
:25:35. > :25:41.and dismiss most of it. Even people like the governor of the Bank of
:25:42. > :25:45.England? Well, he is Canadian, isn't he. Barack Obama came in and
:25:46. > :25:53.expressed an opinion. And they know nothing. So you have been trusting
:25:54. > :25:59.experts on the Remain side? Yes. If you have 90% plus of experts telling
:26:00. > :26:06.you it makes sense to stay, then they know what they are talking
:26:07. > :26:11.about. The polls are so close, every moment counts. We asked people on
:26:12. > :26:14.both sides to wear a camera today and record the reaction. On the
:26:15. > :26:19.streets of central London, this Leave campaigner got a mixed
:26:20. > :26:27.reaction. Hello, are you going to vote? Are you going to vote? No. Why
:26:28. > :26:37.not? Because we will miss out on so much. What will you miss out on?
:26:38. > :26:43.Please. Out, great. It isn't easy. I haven't decide. But I think we will
:26:44. > :26:53.remain in. There are still those whose minds he will not change.
:26:54. > :27:01.Hello. I am from vote Leave. I have sent my vote by post. Who did you
:27:02. > :27:06.vote for? The opposite. In this day and age, a little country going on
:27:07. > :27:11.it's own is not feasible. I think it is better for the younger people.
:27:12. > :27:16.What about tampon tax? I don't know about that. Do you know which way
:27:17. > :27:22.you are voting... In north London, an area which should sit firmly in
:27:23. > :27:27.the Remain, Samp Ovie is still finding people who are voting
:27:28. > :27:31.Brexit. It looks like this is going to the wire. Do you know which way
:27:32. > :27:38.you are voting? I can tell you explicitly, out, out, out. Stay out
:27:39. > :27:48.and wish we had never come in. Have you decided which way you will vote?
:27:49. > :27:56.Yes. Yes. Are you eligible to vote. Yes. What swayed you in favour of
:27:57. > :28:03.staying in? It is the power and the money. Can you chat about the
:28:04. > :28:10.referendum. I am voting out. Do you know which way you are voting? I am
:28:11. > :28:15.in. The Visa, having to go abroad, the issue of getting new visas. The
:28:16. > :28:23.uncertainty of people being taxed more. Do you know which way you are
:28:24. > :28:28.voting in the referendum? Out. Why are you voting out? Hopefully there
:28:29. > :28:33.will be more jobs for British people and look around you, where we are
:28:34. > :28:40.standing now, you point to me ten richest people. For weeks and
:28:41. > :28:43.months, the arguments have raged. At Kingston College, how are these
:28:44. > :28:49.staff and students making up their minds? Have these people down here
:28:50. > :28:55.influenced how you will vote? They are like a rough guide to people
:28:56. > :29:00.making their decision. You take a little bit from everyone. It has
:29:01. > :29:05.become a popularity contest. If we bowed out, there will be billions of
:29:06. > :29:09.immigrants every week falling over our borders. If we leave, we will be
:29:10. > :29:15.in a massive recession. It is scaremongering. It should be a
:29:16. > :29:19.personal decision. Even though you should pay attention to the
:29:20. > :29:29.statistics. Have you trusted anyone in this? Not really. I don't really
:29:30. > :29:35.trust the politicians. And the experts or just the politicians?
:29:36. > :29:41.They are all much of a muchness, in each other's pockets. If that is the
:29:42. > :29:50.case, how will you decide? Speak to my dad. You trust him? I trust him.
:29:51. > :29:58.Back on the street, one person who is out has gone to town. That is the
:29:59. > :30:04.new EU flag. I made it myself. I don't know anyone who is not voting
:30:05. > :30:11.out. I will take Nigel back, someone else might want him. Can I keep him.
:30:12. > :30:14.With that he was off, neither he nor we have too long to wait now for the
:30:15. > :30:17.outcome of this referendum. So how has the referendum
:30:18. > :30:21.campaign been for you? Have you been dismayed by the nature
:30:22. > :30:25.of the argument, or have you relished
:30:26. > :30:27.the hand-to-hand combat? Project fear, on each side,
:30:28. > :30:29.claim and counter claim, blunt warnings and intemperate
:30:30. > :30:31.language, accusations What has the prosecution
:30:32. > :30:35.of the campaign told us about the public discourse in
:30:36. > :30:37.Britain and has it unearthed deep-seated divisions and
:30:38. > :30:40.faultlines in our culture? Here with me, the writers
:30:41. > :30:42.Howard Jacobson, Jack Monroe, and Dreda Say Mitchell
:30:43. > :30:53.and the historian Robert Tombs. First let's talk about the conduct
:30:54. > :30:56.of the campaign. Howard, you heard about scaremongering, what the woman
:30:57. > :31:02.was saying about scaremongering on both sides, what do you think? I am
:31:03. > :31:08.exhilarated by the campaign and depressed at the same time, you can
:31:09. > :31:14.feel both. I very much as a Remainer, and I have been a person
:31:15. > :31:19.who wanted to leave Europe forever. Every morning I left Europe until I
:31:20. > :31:22.realised there was going to be a referendum and people were doing
:31:23. > :31:25.this seriously. It's one thing to play at leaving but people were
:31:26. > :31:31.serious, so I became a Remainer. Since then I've grown very depressed
:31:32. > :31:37.by, more than anything else, the charge for people who want to leave
:31:38. > :31:41.that the Remainers are scaremongering. I have not heard
:31:42. > :31:44.any. They are saying you are about to take a leap in the dark, that's
:31:45. > :31:49.frightening, be frightened of the unknown. There is a difference
:31:50. > :31:51.between being frightened of the unknown and what the Brexiteers are
:31:52. > :31:57.doing which is saying be frightened of other people. From your point of
:31:58. > :32:00.view, Robert, as an historian, is there something particularly about
:32:01. > :32:05.the whole binary nature of a referendum that brings out the
:32:06. > :32:10.visceral hand-to-hand combat? And also the idea that it's going to be
:32:11. > :32:16.a simple majority. It could just be 140 people. Let's hope not. What
:32:17. > :32:20.strikes me about the campaign has been how little the establishment
:32:21. > :32:25.has been listened to by a very large portion of the electorate. These
:32:26. > :32:29.masses of people, the people who are supposed to be our leaders, have
:32:30. > :32:34.been telling us over and over again, this is the way we must vote. It
:32:35. > :32:37.reminds me of Victorian squires saying to their tenants you have to
:32:38. > :32:42.vote for me all you will be evicted. And I think there has been a lot of
:32:43. > :32:46.scaremongering. What about the kind of language, Dreda? For me it has
:32:47. > :32:53.been a lot of scaremongering on both sides. I think with Remain it has
:32:54. > :32:57.been more about economic. George Osborne, talk about an own goal,
:32:58. > :33:01.saying house prices will drop. Most of the young people I know were
:33:02. > :33:05.jumping in the air saying they might be able to get something. When I
:33:06. > :33:09.watched what was going on, my perception was, because I did not
:33:10. > :33:13.see much of Labour being involved, and as a left-wing Labour supporter
:33:14. > :33:17.I was very disappointed about that. I just saw infighting among one
:33:18. > :33:21.particular party. To tell you the truth and I've said this publicly, I
:33:22. > :33:24.turned my television off and I went and try to educate myself via
:33:25. > :33:29.Reading, talking to other people, and that's how I came to the
:33:30. > :33:34.decision to actually leave. I was very disturbed by the type of public
:33:35. > :33:42.campaign I saw on both sides. Jack, how has the campaign been for you?
:33:43. > :33:49.What do you make of it? It's been insidious, xenophobic, terrifying.
:33:50. > :33:56.It's been a lot of very noisy rhetoric from the same faces from
:33:57. > :34:01.the same establishment figures. I would challenge claim that the
:34:02. > :34:03.public are not listening to the establishment, I would say the
:34:04. > :34:07.establishment are not listening to the public, and I do not see my
:34:08. > :34:11.views represented anywhere, the views of my father, many of my
:34:12. > :34:15.friends. I feel we've got the same bevy of people telling us what's
:34:16. > :34:19.best for us and nobody is asking us. It is a very binary debate and it
:34:20. > :34:23.does get heated. But it is the lies, dammed lies and statistics that have
:34:24. > :34:27.really got me, how are people supposed to know how to vote when so
:34:28. > :34:31.many people are distorting so many facts? I think what has happened, if
:34:32. > :34:36.you go outside of London it is a very different picture. I live
:34:37. > :34:40.outside of London! What has come to the surface for me is the divisions
:34:41. > :34:43.among class. When you talk to a lot of working-class people they are
:34:44. > :34:52.saying that they will vote for leave. What was interesting with the
:34:53. > :34:55.referendum debate at Wembley was Frances O'Grady was saying I am
:34:56. > :34:58.standing for workers, she is on the Remain side. A lot of the workers
:34:59. > :35:00.are saying, you are not actually standing for us. The problem has
:35:01. > :35:04.been that the Labour Party has been too much in the shadows. One of the
:35:05. > :35:09.issues for the future is, where are working-class people going to vote?
:35:10. > :35:13.When you've got the project fear followed by what Sadiq Khan said
:35:14. > :35:16.today, calling it project hate, you've got the kind of language, is
:35:17. > :35:23.it the language of the social media page? In this country we have a
:35:24. > :35:30.proud tradition of vehemence debate. We are sarcastic, we love being rude
:35:31. > :35:32.to one another. In the 19th century people used to watch pantomime
:35:33. > :35:36.because they loved the violence. We've got great cartoonists. All
:35:37. > :35:39.this is within our great tradition. What is different and I would not
:35:40. > :35:43.put this down to our national character and not down to the effect
:35:44. > :35:47.of social media is this assumption that everybody who doesn't think
:35:48. > :35:52.what you think is a moron. And not only is he a moron, he's a liar.
:35:53. > :35:58.This idea, the trouble with a binary debate, it's exactly in the spirit,
:35:59. > :36:01.in or out. Whereas we all know that all the interesting things are
:36:02. > :36:05.between those two funds, but we've got no opportunity here to do
:36:06. > :36:08.anything but say in and out. Encouraged by the social media, we
:36:09. > :36:13.now suppose that everybody who doesn't think what we think deserves
:36:14. > :36:19.to die, really. Is this actually a reflection of a solid democracy?
:36:20. > :36:24.Well I think it's going to leave rather a political hangover. It's
:36:25. > :36:28.shown that there are divisions that we always knew were there, social
:36:29. > :36:32.divisions, generational divisions, regional. But they have proved to be
:36:33. > :36:36.rather deeper than we thought. It has shown a huge amount of distrust.
:36:37. > :36:41.What worries me, whatever the result, people will be looking for
:36:42. > :36:44.things to go wrong afterwards. And by the very nature of how the result
:36:45. > :36:49.is counted, we are going to know geographically, demographically, how
:36:50. > :36:54.this is panning out, and where the divisions like. And I think that is
:36:55. > :36:57.an important thing to know. I think for too long when we talk about
:36:58. > :37:01.politics it very much has been centred on London and the South and
:37:02. > :37:05.Westminster. I think it was even interesting with Newsnight's
:37:06. > :37:09.analysis of the debate just now, we were talking very much to
:37:10. > :37:12.politicians. I thought to myself, why has there been no discussion?
:37:13. > :37:16.Couldn't they have had a satellite in another part of the country
:37:17. > :37:21.talking to people outside London? We have been doing that all last week,
:37:22. > :37:26.we had a referendum truck around the country. For that particular debate
:37:27. > :37:29.because it is such a key debate, it would have been an interesting
:37:30. > :37:33.perspective to have. I think it is a good example of what we are not
:37:34. > :37:37.doing sometimes. Jack, are you concerned that some of the divisions
:37:38. > :37:42.this has exposed will remain? They will not be papered over on Friday?
:37:43. > :37:47.Absolutely. And I think it will highlight what different people's
:37:48. > :37:51.concerns are in a way that we probably don't have that information
:37:52. > :37:55.at the moment. Because our politics seems so focused in the wrong
:37:56. > :37:59.groups, in the wrong places. There are large swathes of people who feel
:38:00. > :38:03.not represented, and that's how we have people like Nigel Farage, Trump
:38:04. > :38:06.over in the States. That's how we have these blustering obsessively
:38:07. > :38:10.nasty politicians getting their armies of people to listen to them
:38:11. > :38:14.because they are people who feel like they are not being represented.
:38:15. > :38:17.We've got a working-class revolution going on but they all seem to be
:38:18. > :38:22.going in a rather dangerous direction. I think in a way the EU
:38:23. > :38:26.provides an extra layer of a problem. All over the western world
:38:27. > :38:29.and in the democratic world people are feeling unrepresented by
:38:30. > :38:33.politicians. Then you have in the EU another layer which separates people
:38:34. > :38:36.from politicians, where decisions are being made quite outside the
:38:37. > :38:41.accountability and indeed the knowledge of the voters and that is
:38:42. > :38:46.a big problem. How do you feel about the House of Lords, then? That's
:38:47. > :38:50.another debate. How do you make your peace with your friends who take a
:38:51. > :38:54.different view? My friends don't take a different view! They are very
:38:55. > :39:00.quickly persuaded of the rightness of my point of view. And I don't
:39:01. > :39:03.have any friends who say "I want my country back". I have a great deal
:39:04. > :39:08.of sympathy for people who live in areas where they don't hear their
:39:09. > :39:13.own language spoken. I'd think we should talk about racists the way we
:39:14. > :39:17.do. Nonetheless, to hear people saying "I want my country back",
:39:18. > :39:21.that's terrifying. It wasn't so long ago when we saw what people saying
:39:22. > :39:25.that led to. This country has not been taken over, we are not
:39:26. > :39:28.occupied, we have a distinct, vibrant country. We are ourselves,
:39:29. > :39:34.we have nothing to fear about being taken over, it is a wicked language
:39:35. > :39:38.and terrifying. If you are on the side of Leave and you end up being
:39:39. > :39:43.lumped in with people who say "I want to take my country back". I
:39:44. > :39:47.want the democracy back. But how does it sit with you, do you believe
:39:48. > :39:50.that? What I believe is that democracy in Europe is under a lot
:39:51. > :39:54.of pressure and the EU, which is what we are supposed to be talking
:39:55. > :39:57.about, is making it worse and aggravating the situation. It has
:39:58. > :40:01.really reached us yet and you could say this is not our problem, but if
:40:02. > :40:06.you look around Europe there is a rise of populist parties of right
:40:07. > :40:12.and left. I think Europe is heading for some sort of political crisis.
:40:13. > :40:14.Dreda, you are in a position with some bedfellows you wouldn't
:40:15. > :40:20.normally want as bedfellows, how comfortable do you feel about that?
:40:21. > :40:23.To me it has never been the issue, the issue around the EU has never
:40:24. > :40:26.been about the left and right debate, it goes right across the
:40:27. > :40:30.parties. I think I'm in the tradition of the Labour Party from
:40:31. > :40:35.the 1970s and 1980s with the big slogan get Britain out. That's where
:40:36. > :40:39.I think I'm sitting. It's not a debate about personalities, it's
:40:40. > :40:44.about the issues. Thank you all very much indeed. Vote well but just vote
:40:45. > :40:50.once. That's all we have time for. Evan is back tomorrow for the last
:40:51. > :41:01.day of the user what. Good night. Most of us go into the night drive
:41:02. > :41:05.but by the morning rain again across parts of South West England through
:41:06. > :41:06.towards the Midlands. From there towards Yorkshire and the Humber
:41:07. > :41:07.where we could