:00:17. > :00:21.Well, at 4.40am, we can now say that...
:00:22. > :00:23.The people of the United Kingdom have voted to leave
:00:24. > :00:31.I'm not going to be here a lot longer, I'm nearly 80.
:00:32. > :00:41.Well, by about ten o'clock, I would say, would be about right!
:00:42. > :00:45.I do not think it would be right for me to try to be the captain
:00:46. > :00:47.that steers our country to its next destination.
:00:48. > :00:49.Are you not worried about what you're hearing this morning?
:00:50. > :00:54.About David Cameron resigning or the strength of the pound?
:00:55. > :01:02.A letter of no confidence has been tabled with Jeremy Corbyn.
:01:03. > :01:05.We will begin to prepare the legislation that
:01:06. > :01:09.would be required to enable a new independence referendum.
:01:10. > :01:11.Anybody that doesn't think this is big stuff needs
:01:12. > :01:15.I'm kind of thinking of moving to another country.
:01:16. > :01:22.It is no longer right for this country.
:01:23. > :01:26.Because the French don't like us and the Germans don't
:01:27. > :01:31.I don't know what's got to happen next.
:01:32. > :01:37.We've got nowt, so what can get worse?
:01:38. > :01:59.It's the biggest financial story since the crash, a huge political
:02:00. > :02:01.story, a once in a generation foreign politcy shift,
:02:02. > :02:04.all in one day - not to mention the constitutional
:02:05. > :02:11.We can keep calm, but carrying on as before, not really possible.
:02:12. > :02:13.The enormity of what has happened has been sinking into voters
:02:14. > :02:22.We mustn't over interpret the result.
:02:23. > :02:26.If one in 50 of all voters had switched from Leave to Remain, we'd
:02:27. > :02:32.But we mustn't under-interpret it either, and all that it represents.
:02:33. > :02:35.Is this the first vote ever to say it's NOT the economy
:02:36. > :02:46.The latest of a wave of insurrections sweeping the West.
:02:47. > :02:49.A challenge to the established order and the political class.
:02:50. > :02:52.The discontented getting their own back.
:02:53. > :02:56.Or should you view it as an inter-generational struggle?
:02:57. > :03:01.The polls showing under 45s voted in and over 45s wanted us out.
:03:02. > :03:04.And there's an aftermath of bitterness.
:03:05. > :03:07.One young man's tweet: "I'm so angry", he said.
:03:08. > :03:11."A generation given everything - free education, golden pensions,
:03:12. > :03:15.social mobility - have voted to strip my generation's future".
:03:16. > :03:19.For some, it comes down to nothing less than a culture war.
:03:20. > :03:23.So who's corrupt? Europe.
:03:24. > :03:27.Youthful urban liberals versus older social conservatives.
:03:28. > :03:29.The former worry that Britain will now turn its back
:03:30. > :03:35.The latter think it's time for their voice to be heard again.
:03:36. > :03:38.It's not as clean-cut as that, but that's where the argument goes -
:03:39. > :03:44.Well, it's for the history books to argue about the causes
:03:45. > :03:47.We're going to do something different tonight.
:03:48. > :03:53.What's next for politics in this country?
:03:54. > :03:55.The two major parties both looking battered, both with leadership
:03:56. > :04:02.How will the EU now choose to treat us?
:04:03. > :04:05.And how does our decision affect the EU?
:04:06. > :04:08.And what's next for the UK, with Scotland voting
:04:09. > :04:16.Well, of the three "what nexts", politics comes first,
:04:17. > :04:21.At a turbulent time like this, it would be great to
:04:22. > :04:24.have a Nelson Mandela to take over, heal the wounds, articulate a vision
:04:25. > :04:27.for the country and negotiate a new arrangement with goodwill
:04:28. > :04:34.Well, Donald Trump flew into Britain today, but he's not available.
:04:35. > :04:41.It is an awful time to be a mainstream politician.
:04:42. > :04:44.I'm going to be talking to some of them in a minute.
:04:45. > :04:48.But first, I'm here with our political editor, Nick Watt.
:04:49. > :04:56.In Westminster this morning, shock? They were shell-shocked in Downing
:04:57. > :05:00.Street. They had a simple thought, Project Fear would deliver a second
:05:01. > :05:06.referendum when what we saw power and authority seeping away from
:05:07. > :05:09.Number 10 a number 11 Downing St, he might have thought that the
:05:10. > :05:12.Chancellor would calm down the market but that job was left to the
:05:13. > :05:16.Governor of the Bank of England and he had a couple of tweets from the
:05:17. > :05:21.Chancellor. We were talking to one Whitehall source who, like a number
:05:22. > :05:26.ten to do not, the Centre has fallen apart. They went on to say, no
:05:27. > :05:34.communication from Number 10, we assume they have gone to the pub.
:05:35. > :05:40.As dawn broke today, written a look to the most momentous shuffling of
:05:41. > :05:50.the political order since the Second World War. The Suez Canal...
:05:51. > :05:55.Evaluation of sterling, the defenestration of Margaret Thatcher.
:05:56. > :06:03.We are leaving Downing Street... Arguably, they were trumped today
:06:04. > :06:06.when Britain stumbled out of the EU. Overturning for decades of
:06:07. > :06:09.assumptions about Britain's place in Europe was of an order of such
:06:10. > :06:13.magnitude that it made the resignation of the sitting Prime
:06:14. > :06:19.Minister a second order issue. David Cameron's voice cracked as he
:06:20. > :06:23.announced his departure. I love this country. And I feel honoured to have
:06:24. > :06:27.served it. And I will do everything I can in future to help this great
:06:28. > :06:39.country succeed. Thank you very much. Any hope of a Roman style
:06:40. > :06:45.triumph were soon crushed- Boris Johnson greeted by protesters as he
:06:46. > :06:49.left his house. The Prime Minister's nemesis looked funereal at the death
:06:50. > :06:55.of what they have achieved something. I want to begin by paying
:06:56. > :06:59.tribute to David Cameron, they had spoken earlier from Downing Street,
:07:00. > :07:05.and I know that I speak for Michael in saying how sad I am that he has
:07:06. > :07:12.decided to step down but obviously, I respect that decision. Johnson
:07:13. > :07:16.owns the next few months but his hopes of reaching Number 10 might
:07:17. > :07:20.hinge on whether his assurances of a seamless transition to life outside
:07:21. > :07:24.the EU country. Michael Gove insists he has no interest in leadership but
:07:25. > :07:30.a fellow Leave campaigner is not sure. The Conservative party has so
:07:31. > :07:35.many talented people, dozens come to mind but my top three would be
:07:36. > :07:39.Michael Gove, Boris Johnson and Andrea Leadsom. Will the next
:07:40. > :07:45.Conservative prime ministers be for Brexit? The Prime Minister stood
:07:46. > :07:48.down because he failed that having backed Remain he cannot increment
:07:49. > :07:53.the will of the people expressed in the referendum, but applies to
:07:54. > :07:57.anyone else who supported Remain. Within months the circus will have
:07:58. > :08:01.moved on but for the moment David Cameron finds himself at the hostage
:08:02. > :08:06.to his former allies as he accepts their timetable for a British exit
:08:07. > :08:08.from the EU. David Cameron hoped to end his Premiership as one of the
:08:09. > :08:15.great Conservative social reformers but instead, he finds our ebbing
:08:16. > :08:19.away. I am not sure if I recall this a zombie government but it feels
:08:20. > :08:22.more like a caretaker government for the next few months. We had a
:08:23. > :08:27.government with a massive legislative agenda with prison and
:08:28. > :08:32.NHS reform and Universal Credit, and a lot of that has been on hold
:08:33. > :08:37.because of the referendum. Now, because of the leadership campaign,
:08:38. > :08:41.we have a Prime Minister effectively an interim Prime Minister for
:08:42. > :08:45.months, and because of summer and the concerns about the EU, what will
:08:46. > :08:52.happen with negotiations, even more will probably be in abeyance for the
:08:53. > :08:56.time being. You wait an age for a leadership crisis and then two of
:08:57. > :08:59.them come along. If you are worse after the Prime Minister announced
:09:00. > :09:03.plans to resign, two veteran Labour MPs said they would lay the ground
:09:04. > :09:08.for a challenge to Jeremy Corbyn. Others share those concerns. I
:09:09. > :09:12.understand that motion and the concerns of Margaret and other
:09:13. > :09:17.colleagues. Of looking at the results of yesterday. We went into
:09:18. > :09:23.this referendum campaign expecting 70 or 80% of Labour supporters and
:09:24. > :09:28.voters to vote Remain and we barely got 50% and if he cannot demonstrate
:09:29. > :09:34.after this massive test that the Labour Party can retrieve ground,
:09:35. > :09:37.there are more problems ahead, we could have a General Election in six
:09:38. > :09:41.months and at the moment, it's on the outcome of yesterday, it is not
:09:42. > :09:46.looking good for the Labour Party and his leadership. We got the
:09:47. > :09:51.country back! It was Independence Day for the winners but the most
:09:52. > :09:57.unashamedly pro-EU party said that Britain should not give up on its
:09:58. > :10:00.European destiny. We heard Nigel Farage ungraciously before the
:10:01. > :10:03.result when he thought he had lost saying there could be a second
:10:04. > :10:09.referendum. I will not say that. If things change as the months go by
:10:10. > :10:12.and public opinion significantly changes, we must make sure we keep
:10:13. > :10:18.all options open and we must not shackle ourselves to the corpse of a
:10:19. > :10:23.Brexit government. For some, the European dream will never die. But
:10:24. > :10:24.for another generation, at least, Britain's European journey is at an
:10:25. > :10:27.end. Here with me, the former
:10:28. > :10:29.Tory Chancellor, Ken Clarke, Suzanne Evans from Vote Leave
:10:30. > :10:31.and Tristram Hunt, the Labour MP for Stoke-on-Trent,
:10:32. > :10:34.which voted to leave the EU with one of the biggest margins
:10:35. > :10:46.in the country. Ken Clarke, 46 years in politics,
:10:47. > :10:51.all devoted to the European project, you must feel gutted? I do, I
:10:52. > :10:54.started as a very active Conservative student politician
:10:55. > :11:00.supporting Harold Wilson's first bid to join the European Community so it
:11:01. > :11:04.is ironic that 50 years later, this erotic argument is still going on
:11:05. > :11:10.and we are leaving the European Union. I actually, deliberately,
:11:11. > :11:18.have tried to control my annoyance and anger and distress. Because at
:11:19. > :11:22.the moment, we have to decide what we do next, which I think is what
:11:23. > :11:25.the programme is about. We have a caretaker government with no policy
:11:26. > :11:30.of any kind on what our relationship is going to be in the outside world
:11:31. > :11:33.or Europe in particular. We do not know what we shall do about
:11:34. > :11:40.immigration but a lot of people were told to be very frightened. And I
:11:41. > :11:46.think, I have to count to ten and wonder what the devil do after this
:11:47. > :11:51.extraordinary, very narrow result. Can I ask a personal reflection? Ed
:11:52. > :11:55.Miliband last year stood against a government and he said, I am better
:11:56. > :12:00.for business because not gone to risk the nation's departure from the
:12:01. > :12:04.European Union. You must have thought, it would be better if Ed
:12:05. > :12:11.Miliband had won the 20 15th election? I do not think that! My
:12:12. > :12:14.generation thinks referendums are absurd way of running the country
:12:15. > :12:18.but there was no point in emphasising that once we have gone
:12:19. > :12:22.out to have one and no point in emphasising that right now because
:12:23. > :12:25.we have had one and we are where we are and everybody on both sides and
:12:26. > :12:29.I'm sure people on both sides feel as passionately as I do, the country
:12:30. > :12:33.at the moment is in a period of great uncertainty. It needs a
:12:34. > :12:36.government, it needs a government that can start getting on the
:12:37. > :12:41.business of running the country and several crises again and it needs to
:12:42. > :12:49.decide, as we have to negotiate with the EU, what exactly do we want?
:12:50. > :12:52.Quickly, the other two of you, do you think a General Election is
:12:53. > :12:57.required at this time of time? I would say no, I am ecstatic at the
:12:58. > :13:01.result but Iraq and that any half of the country voted the other way and
:13:02. > :13:04.will be quite worried and I have spoken to build today who have
:13:05. > :13:08.concerns about where we go next and I have been doing their best to
:13:09. > :13:12.reassure them. I think General Election, for me, would bring
:13:13. > :13:18.another level of uncertainty, which is best avoided. General Election?
:13:19. > :13:21.There is a high likelihood if we have a new leader of the
:13:22. > :13:25.Conservative party, they will want to develop their own mandate so
:13:26. > :13:29.whether we have an election in autumn or in spring, and what they
:13:30. > :13:37.have to go to the country on his the article 50 strategy. There is a
:13:38. > :13:40.serious risk of an election and I cannot quite see at the moment how
:13:41. > :13:45.the government can reform with a Parliamentary majority to make the
:13:46. > :13:49.kind of changes that most of those four Brexit want. They do not know.
:13:50. > :13:55.I think to go into a General Election would add to the risks of
:13:56. > :14:01.where we are more uncertainty and chaos and another daft and dreadful
:14:02. > :14:04.campaign. With a very indecisive result, that would be disastrous.
:14:05. > :14:10.Who should be the next Prime Minister, before we hear from you,
:14:11. > :14:17.who do you think, Tristram Hunt? The next leader of the Conservative
:14:18. > :14:22.party? From the Labour Party perspective, I would regard or as
:14:23. > :14:27.Johnson as a very successful celebrity candidate. A very clever
:14:28. > :14:32.man. He has used that intelligence to appeal to some very basic
:14:33. > :14:36.instincts. Alongside Michael Gove, he would seek to deliver a very
:14:37. > :14:44.neoliberal Tory Brexit. I don't want any of them. Is that all right?
:14:45. > :14:48.Suzanne Evans? It has to be somebody passionate about Brexit and with a
:14:49. > :14:52.clear vision. Not Theresa May? I would say not. It is a shame because
:14:53. > :14:58.she was one of the frontrunners and I think that she come out for ten
:14:59. > :15:03.one. Andrea Leadsom has been one of the standout stars. And Chancellor
:15:04. > :15:08.for sure. Because nobody has the first idea of what the economic
:15:09. > :15:14.policy of the government is now supposed to be... Nobody has a first
:15:15. > :15:17.idea. What we are saying about immigrants and what we're not
:15:18. > :15:20.saying, there is a danger the country will fill around with
:15:21. > :15:27.another leadership election, having... It does. We need a
:15:28. > :15:30.balanced government, headed by somebody of balanced views and not
:15:31. > :15:38.somebody who is good at foot opportunities. And we need people
:15:39. > :15:43.who can settle down to the serious business of government. -- photo
:15:44. > :15:48.opportunities. Theresa May? The referendum campaign, when not
:15:49. > :15:52.washing immigrants, was Boris and David, and the British, they have
:15:53. > :15:55.caused a crisis for half of the Western world, if they decide to
:15:56. > :16:02.have a fun Conservative leadership battle... That is hyperbole!
:16:03. > :16:09.Are you going to give us a name? Let's turn to Szczecin hunt, the
:16:10. > :16:13.Tories are fighting with each other and Labour are fighting with the
:16:14. > :16:17.voters, which is a much more dangerous place for the party. This
:16:18. > :16:22.referendum exposed tensions in the Labour Party and labour movement and
:16:23. > :16:26.where you see in Stoke-on-Trent 70-30 out and contrast that with
:16:27. > :16:30.some of the votes in Brighton, Bristol, Norwich, or Exeter, other
:16:31. > :16:35.Labour areas, we have got this divide between our traditional
:16:36. > :16:38.working class Labour communities who felt real pressure on the
:16:39. > :16:44.globalisation over the last ten years, felt pressure on wages levels
:16:45. > :16:48.from immigration, feel discontent about the level of change, versus as
:16:49. > :16:51.you said in your intro... I understand the problems you are
:16:52. > :16:55.describing but it's an enormous problem for a political party to
:16:56. > :16:58.find out half of its base is basically completely at odds with it
:16:59. > :17:02.and doesn't view the world in the same way at all. And we have had
:17:03. > :17:06.these problems in the past and Ken will know there are any number of
:17:07. > :17:14.books called What's Wrong With Labour, Will It Ever Come Back? If
:17:15. > :17:17.you have somebody with a social democratic view who people trust and
:17:18. > :17:22.want to put their country in the trust of you can overcome these
:17:23. > :17:26.problems, no doubt. Jeremy Corbyn, does he meet that job description?
:17:27. > :17:30.Ken said an interesting thing about the serious business of government.
:17:31. > :17:34.We now face really serious, tough and difficult times. This is a
:17:35. > :17:39.national crisis and the job of opposition, rather like John Smith
:17:40. > :17:42.during the Maastricht Treaty, is to provide strategic vision and
:17:43. > :17:46.forensic detail. Jeremy Corbyn is very, very good at energising the
:17:47. > :17:50.base and making those who are already convinced of Labour ideals
:17:51. > :17:56.feel better about themselves. Whether he is the man to make sure
:17:57. > :18:01.that Labour values are at the core of every negotiation strategy. A lot
:18:02. > :18:05.of people think he's not the right man for the job. Whether he is the
:18:06. > :18:09.right man to have the Labour values at the core of the re-negotiation
:18:10. > :18:13.strategy, I'm not convinced he has those capacities. Suzanne Evans,
:18:14. > :18:16.there is a problem with trust of politicians, isn't there? That's one
:18:17. > :18:20.of the reasons you've done very well. When exactly will be get the
:18:21. > :18:25.?350 million extra per week spent on the NHS you promised for the whole
:18:26. > :18:30.campaign? When will that happen? It has gone already. We actually
:18:31. > :18:37.promised 100 million specifically for the NHS. I saw one thing, 350
:18:38. > :18:43.million for the NHS. I saw it on a bus. We said 350 million to spend on
:18:44. > :18:48.our own priorities like the NHS. And then a specific proposal for the NHS
:18:49. > :18:52.which was 100 million and that's the kind of cash injection the NHS needs
:18:53. > :18:56.and it's fantastic to have this money back. When will we have the
:18:57. > :19:01.100 million a week? Into a three years' time. Do you not think the
:19:02. > :19:04.possibility is that the things that have brought mainstream politicians
:19:05. > :19:08.into such disrepute and low regard and lack of trust and nothing they
:19:09. > :19:12.say is believed is now about to hit you and all of those who made that
:19:13. > :19:21.case? I don't think so, the British electorate made their decision. They
:19:22. > :19:24.were looking at the asterisk, which wasn't there, that said read this
:19:25. > :19:30.very carefully. The campaign was dreadful. The public got angry and
:19:31. > :19:33.confused. They were no better informed when they finished them
:19:34. > :19:36.when they started, which is why lots of older people in particular were
:19:37. > :19:40.angry with the politicians and antiestablishment and a lot of this
:19:41. > :19:44.is a protest vote. The worst thing they did was talk about these Syrian
:19:45. > :19:50.refugees, Britain has complete control about how many Syrians come
:19:51. > :19:53.over here. On Wednesday and we do now, it's nothing to do with the EU
:19:54. > :19:59.whether they are admitted and settle there. Had a poster with thousands
:20:00. > :20:03.of them streaming in. It was disgusting. Let's not go back over
:20:04. > :20:07.it. Winnie Byanyima man to unite the party and the country and we need a
:20:08. > :20:10.policy and the sooner the better. -- we need the right man. Thank you all
:20:11. > :20:11.very much. Of course, alongside
:20:12. > :20:13.the politics is economics. Famously, we like to describe
:20:14. > :20:15.ourselves as the fifth largest Today, we came close
:20:16. > :20:18.to being the sixth. So when you convert our pound-based
:20:19. > :20:22.national income into dollars, The financial gyrations
:20:23. > :20:26.were considerable and some companies' shares were pummelled
:20:27. > :20:29.in the expectation that things Our business editor,
:20:30. > :20:39.Helen Thomas, is here. Helen, take us through some of those
:20:40. > :20:44.gyrations. So, you heard about the meltdown, there is ample cause for
:20:45. > :20:48.concern but the odd crumb of comfort also. The pound, our best barometer
:20:49. > :20:54.for the overall confidence in the UK economy. You can see that it surged
:20:55. > :20:58.higher as hopes built for a Remain victory last night and then it
:20:59. > :21:03.plunged, a huge move for a currency. I've never seen it move like that!
:21:04. > :21:07.Late in the day it found a level, around 1.37 to the dollar and
:21:08. > :21:11.similar story on the stock markets. Here you can see a very dramatic
:21:12. > :21:17.drop at the open of the markets. Just over on the left. Both for the
:21:18. > :21:21.FTSE 100 and the more UK focused 250. Banks and property stocks
:21:22. > :21:26.hard-hit but then the markets came back and recovered. So what we
:21:27. > :21:29.didn't see was this sort of downward panicked spiral that would indicate
:21:30. > :21:34.a total loss of confidence in the UK. Having said that, it was a
:21:35. > :21:41.really tough day and that reflects investors marking down there outlook
:21:42. > :21:44.for the UK. Some might say the worrying thing is not getting
:21:45. > :21:48.through the next week, it's the longer term. We may be in this slow
:21:49. > :21:53.grinding process of figuring out what the economic hit is going to
:21:54. > :21:56.be. We know some of the areas of concern because the Bank of England
:21:57. > :22:00.helpfully told us last week. They said while consumer spending has
:22:01. > :22:04.been solid, there is grabbing evidence that uncertainty about the
:22:05. > :22:10.referendum is leading to delays to major economic decisions. They
:22:11. > :22:14.mentioned a commercial and real estate transactions, car purchases
:22:15. > :22:18.and business investment. In those sectors that were slowing, the
:22:19. > :22:25.shutters come down. That is the concern. Most analysts believe we
:22:26. > :22:31.need to slow down, possibly a recession. Let's leave the idea of a
:22:32. > :22:37.crisis, you can still have an ugly outcome. If business and hiring
:22:38. > :22:40.dries up quickly, you could see business was already falling into
:22:41. > :22:44.the vote, in that scenario unemployment starts to rise and
:22:45. > :22:47.people worry about jobs, banks pull back on lending, partly because they
:22:48. > :22:51.are worried about loans being repaid and that hits confidence and
:22:52. > :22:54.consumer spending. Meanwhile, a weaker currency means higher
:22:55. > :22:57.inflation and the Bank of England which targets inflation may not feel
:22:58. > :23:02.it Kammy act aggressively to stimulate the economy. It does get
:23:03. > :23:11.confusing. Is there any more sanguine scenario you can paint. --
:23:12. > :23:16.it can act aggressively. A weaker pound could boost exports. More
:23:17. > :23:19.importantly the Bank of England might say we are not going to worry
:23:20. > :23:23.about inflation right now, we are going to look through that, they
:23:24. > :23:25.could cut rates and stimulate the economy in other ways and maybe they
:23:26. > :23:30.have enough tools in their toolkit to do that. The irony is that the
:23:31. > :23:34.Governor Mark Carney who has had a pretty tired dot-mac hard time of
:23:35. > :23:38.late, his crucial to how this pans out. -- a pretty hard time.
:23:39. > :23:40.The next of our What Nows is Europe itself.
:23:41. > :23:48.After the French revolution, other royal families worried
:23:49. > :23:51.about how to keep their heads, there's a bit of that
:23:52. > :23:54.If any eurocrats were still harbouring dreams of creating
:23:55. > :23:56.a European superstate, Britain has shown that the old
:23:57. > :24:00.concept of the nation state is not going down without a fight.
:24:01. > :24:02.Critically there is the looming question of what our relationship
:24:03. > :24:08.with the EU might be. Our diplomatic editor
:24:09. > :24:14.Mark Urban is in Brussels. Good evening.
:24:15. > :24:19.The thing that is defining attitudes here is a fear of contagion. Will
:24:20. > :24:23.Heard Marine Le Pen, some Dutch Eurosceptics and others as well in
:24:24. > :24:29.Europe welcoming today's result, but none of them are in power right now.
:24:30. > :24:31.And none of them is in a position to deliver an in-out referendum in
:24:32. > :24:38.another European country any time soon. But the attitude that seems to
:24:39. > :24:42.be dominant here, we have certainly heard some of the big hitters in the
:24:43. > :24:46.Brussels machine voicing this attitude, is that Brexit should
:24:47. > :24:50.happen not just quickly but in a very tough or exemplary way. In
:24:51. > :24:54.other words, they want the other countries in Europe that may be
:24:55. > :24:59.watching to see the Brits go out on very tough terms. Fascinating
:25:00. > :25:03.insights tonight from Wolfgang Schreiber, the German finance
:25:04. > :25:07.minister, very influential, a leaked Brexit plan of his suggests trade
:25:08. > :25:12.terms and an association agreement not like Norway, as some people
:25:13. > :25:16.discussed in the UK, not like Switzerland, more the sort of deal
:25:17. > :25:22.that Turkey or Canada might be negotiating in the latter case. Very
:25:23. > :25:26.tough terms, all to do with trying to head off a risk, which even last
:25:27. > :25:28.night and was nobody in this town really had got to grips with the
:25:29. > :25:34.idea of what was about to hit it. they woke up to the day that
:25:35. > :25:55.ever-closer union died. Across the airwaves and in many
:25:56. > :26:03.languages, that dread news sank in. With markets plunging
:26:04. > :26:05.across many countries, the woman styled Queen Europe
:26:06. > :26:13.by some called for calm. TRANSLATION: What the outcome
:26:14. > :26:19.of this watershed will mean to us in the coming days,
:26:20. > :26:21.weeks, months and years If we, the other 27 member states
:26:22. > :26:28.of the European Union, are capable and willing not to rush
:26:29. > :26:31.into any quick and easy decisions which would only further
:26:32. > :26:35.disunite Europe. But if we're capable and willing
:26:36. > :26:38.to assess the situation calmly and soberly in order to come
:26:39. > :26:41.to a joint decision on this basis. At the Commission, leaders
:26:42. > :26:43.of the European institutions met And, very soon, it became clear
:26:44. > :26:50.that there would be no further We are already hearing voices
:26:51. > :26:57.here from the other 27 members of the EU that they should force
:26:58. > :27:00.the pace of Brexit in order to protect their own economies
:27:01. > :27:03.and political systems. And now we're going to hear
:27:04. > :27:07.from the bosses of the union's big institutions, and it'll be
:27:08. > :27:10.fascinating to see to what extent they think the union should drive
:27:11. > :27:15.a tough exit bargain with the UK. For the man running the European
:27:16. > :27:19.bureaucracy, even the words to describe this moment
:27:20. > :27:22.seemed to stick. The British people expressed
:27:23. > :27:29.its views on their... We now expect the United Kingdom
:27:30. > :27:40.government to give effect to this decision of the British people
:27:41. > :27:45.as soon as possible. As for what it meant
:27:46. > :27:54.for the remaining 27, watch this. REPORTER: Is this the beginning
:27:55. > :27:57.of the end of the European Union? Blunt but very much
:27:58. > :28:07.to the liking of the non-British So, Europe is in the deepest
:28:08. > :28:15.of crises as consultations begin And there are already suggestions
:28:16. > :28:23.by many players here that any deal should be exemplary,
:28:24. > :28:25.with the UK denied access It is a consequence of the British
:28:26. > :28:31.vote because the single market, or the European Economic Area,
:28:32. > :28:34.includes also the free That was the problem
:28:35. > :28:43.in the referendum. So I think that the only way
:28:44. > :28:45.to establish any relationship between Britain and the European
:28:46. > :28:49.Union is using a trade agreement. Like Europe has trade agreements
:28:50. > :28:58.with a number of countries. There are those who favour more
:28:59. > :29:01.generalist terms, but so far There is a statue just
:29:02. > :29:06.outside the commission. And on the day that the Brexit
:29:07. > :29:11.earthquake hit this town, Earlier I was joined
:29:12. > :29:17.by Jonathan Powell, Tony Blair's Did he think the decision
:29:18. > :29:23.to leave was irreversible or was there a still a route
:29:24. > :29:25.where Britain could retain its Well, I think this was a vote
:29:26. > :29:31.against something rather than a vote It was a vote against our current
:29:32. > :29:35.relationship with the EU but it wasn't a vote for what sort
:29:36. > :29:38.of new relationship we should have. So I must say I think David Cameron
:29:39. > :29:42.is right to delay the start of negotiations until there
:29:43. > :29:45.is a new Prime Minister. But I would go further than that,
:29:46. > :29:47.I think any new Prime Minister needs
:29:48. > :29:51.a mandate for a negotiation. He has to set out what he is for,
:29:52. > :29:54.what sort of new relationship are we
:29:55. > :29:56.going to have with EU? I think that's very,
:29:57. > :30:02.very important that they get that I don't think you can
:30:03. > :30:05.really start negotiations until there has been
:30:06. > :30:06.an election, not just the choice
:30:07. > :30:09.of a new Tory leader. So, hang on, is it possible
:30:10. > :30:13.a party could go into an election saying we are in, we're
:30:14. > :30:16.just going to ignore the referendum and we'll just
:30:17. > :30:18.negotiate us to remain? Of course you can, that's
:30:19. > :30:20.what elections are about. You go for an election in a mandate,
:30:21. > :30:23.one of the many reasons Mrs Thatcher was
:30:24. > :30:25.against referenda was because she thought you should decide this
:30:26. > :30:27.in representative democracy But the main point here is this
:30:28. > :30:33.is a vote against something, The Brexiteers were
:30:34. > :30:36.completely divided on what they wanted,
:30:37. > :30:38.no one knows what they mean. So someone has got to set out
:30:39. > :30:41.a positive mandate and A lot of the Europeans
:30:42. > :30:44.are saying they The path you are
:30:45. > :30:47.describing, and indeed the path that the Leave campaign has
:30:48. > :30:50.been describing is one that takes We will be waiting months before
:30:51. > :30:54.the negotiation gets going. Do you think we can really
:30:55. > :30:56.keep our European David Cameron has already set out
:30:57. > :31:01.the timetable as far It's only us who can start
:31:02. > :31:05.Article 50, not them. So I totally understand why
:31:06. > :31:06.they wanted to be quick, because the uncertainty
:31:07. > :31:09.is hurting them, not just us. But in the end they
:31:10. > :31:12.are going to have to wait for us and I think we would be
:31:13. > :31:15.sensible - A, to have a negotiating position,
:31:16. > :31:17.B, to have a new Prime Minister, and C, for
:31:18. > :31:19.that Prime Minister to have a mandate
:31:20. > :31:21.for his negotiating. This is really important
:31:22. > :31:22.about our future. You can't just go in there not clear
:31:23. > :31:25.what you want. The other critical thing is,
:31:26. > :31:27.how hardball do you think Because, already we've heard some
:31:28. > :31:31.reports saying the Norway option, forget it, you're not
:31:32. > :31:33.going to get the Norway option, that's not
:31:34. > :31:35.on the What do you think
:31:36. > :31:39.the European Union, what line do you think
:31:40. > :31:40.they They are not going to try and punish
:31:41. > :31:46.us because they want to have good The point is that they
:31:47. > :31:49.have their interests. They are going to meet at 27
:31:50. > :31:52.without us next week to start working out
:31:53. > :31:54.what their position is. Their main priority is to keep
:31:55. > :31:57.the EU together, to stop the So there are not going to offer
:31:58. > :32:00.us anything that will encourage the Dutch or the Finns
:32:01. > :32:03.for the Danes to leave. So they are not going to offer us
:32:04. > :32:06.a super deal outside the EU because otherwise
:32:07. > :32:08.they will start losing other people. They've got to take
:32:09. > :32:12.care of their interests and we've got to fight
:32:13. > :32:13.for And bluffing, do you think there has
:32:14. > :32:17.been some bluff over the last few weeks in the run-up
:32:18. > :32:19.to the referendum? If you remember, Boris
:32:20. > :32:22.Johnson said before he became the leader
:32:23. > :32:24.of the Brexit campaign, he said his
:32:25. > :32:27.preferred option would be to have a new negotiation and a new
:32:28. > :32:29.referendum, and that the referendum So I'm hoping that he
:32:30. > :32:33.becomes leader of the Tory party, which are not hoping,
:32:34. > :32:36.but if he does then he will have that mandate, he can go off and make
:32:37. > :32:40.an negotiation and then have a new Remember, the Irish have done
:32:41. > :32:43.that twice this century. They voted against the treaty,
:32:44. > :32:44.had a It seems very unlikely
:32:45. > :32:47.at the moment, the EU saying no to it,
:32:48. > :32:51.the Brexit campaign saying no to it, but that is one option when we go
:32:52. > :32:53.forward and when people realise quite how
:32:54. > :32:55.ghastly the alternatives are. We've been talking
:32:56. > :32:57.about Britain and its Let's just briefly talk
:32:58. > :33:00.about the EU itself. How dangerous is the British vote
:33:01. > :33:03.for the existence of the EU? Well, it is a threat
:33:04. > :33:06.to the existence of the EU because it's going
:33:07. > :33:08.to encourage other Eurosceptics, and you can see who the friends
:33:09. > :33:10.of the Eurosceptics are, people
:33:11. > :33:13.like Le Pen, people like Trump. Those sort of people are going to be
:33:14. > :33:16.agitating to break Europe up. And of course, European
:33:17. > :33:17.governments are going to resist that, so it is
:33:18. > :33:19.a Even leaving that to one side,
:33:20. > :33:22.what's going to happen to Europe without Britain is it's
:33:23. > :33:25.going to become less liberal, it's going to become more
:33:26. > :33:27.integrated and it's going to become more German
:33:28. > :33:28.and that's going to worry
:33:29. > :33:31.lots of countries in Europe. That's why they wanted
:33:32. > :33:32.us to stay in. That's an inevitable consequence
:33:33. > :33:50.of us leaving. Christine, how does this look from
:33:51. > :33:57.France the safety? It looks pretty ghastly. -- this evening. But
:33:58. > :34:03.listening to be very interesting discussion you just had, I think you
:34:04. > :34:07.should not underestimate the determination of the key member
:34:08. > :34:11.states on the continent not to let the British play the fiddle to
:34:12. > :34:18.determine the timetable. We should just sit and wait for them to
:34:19. > :34:23.actually act. It will very much depend on what happens on Monday
:34:24. > :34:30.when Angela Merkel meets in Berlin with Francois Hollande, the Italian
:34:31. > :34:36.Prime Minister and Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council.
:34:37. > :34:43.You will hear what the tone will be and, again, as has been said by your
:34:44. > :34:49.Brussels correspondent, there is a series of meetings next week and,
:34:50. > :34:54.again, the EU had been functioning for 17 years before Britain was
:34:55. > :35:01.accepted. I think there is a degree of arrogance at times, if I may, at
:35:02. > :35:06.this late hour in the night, to think we shall disintegrate after
:35:07. > :35:12.this rather ghastly result. Can I wish you, David Cameron is stepping
:35:13. > :35:16.down, it will take three months to collect a new Prime Minister and
:35:17. > :35:22.leader of the Conservative party, nobody feels that David Cameron can
:35:23. > :35:28.do the negotiation, you will have to wait for three months before this
:35:29. > :35:31.starts? Yes. You think that people in Brussels or just sit and wait? I
:35:32. > :35:38.think the process will be so, located, the economic and financial
:35:39. > :35:43.costs, we have seen nothing today, of course the kind lost a great deal
:35:44. > :35:48.of value and the markets will be shaken for quite some time. -- the
:35:49. > :35:53.pound. There will be a lot of work being done in the meantime and it is
:35:54. > :35:59.not going to be done by the snap of a finger but, again, on the
:36:00. > :36:05.continent, there was also this idea that the British, especially the
:36:06. > :36:11.older generation, the ones who really have deprived the young ones
:36:12. > :36:16.of the benefits of Europe, they are going to feel the brunt of this and
:36:17. > :36:21.that is something which, on the continent, will be closely watched,
:36:22. > :36:26.especially by Eastern European countries, which might, I remember,
:36:27. > :36:34.Britain wanted so much inside the EU and the night complain about
:36:35. > :36:38.immigration from Eastern Europe. Dan Hammond, they do not want us to take
:36:39. > :36:44.time. They want us to get on with it? Perfectly reasonable? You have
:36:45. > :36:47.answer that, we will have to wait until there is somebody to do those
:36:48. > :36:52.negotiations. Getting this right matters much more than the time and
:36:53. > :36:57.they getting it right, I mean by being fair to our allies on the
:36:58. > :37:01.continent as well as getting a deal in our own interests and it would be
:37:02. > :37:04.crazy to rush into something after 43 years at the expense of getting
:37:05. > :37:10.something mutually satisfactory. Jonathan Powell said we need to have
:37:11. > :37:15.an election, we have not yet worked out the model? One of the reasons
:37:16. > :37:20.that muscles is so unpopular because it is seen to be contemptuous of
:37:21. > :37:23.public opinion and it is incredible that less than 24 hours after the
:37:24. > :37:28.result we have already got people trying to undo this, but what I
:37:29. > :37:33.would say, to soften what I have just said a little bit, plainly we
:37:34. > :37:36.have referred it to say but are going to leave the EU, it was a
:37:37. > :37:41.narrow majority, 48% of people voting to stay in and Scotland
:37:42. > :37:46.voting to stay in, Northern Ireland and Gibraltar, we on the winning
:37:47. > :37:51.side have to be cognisant of the extent to which opinion is divided
:37:52. > :37:54.and carry as many remain voters as possible and that might mean that
:37:55. > :37:58.quite a lot of the existing arrangements remain in place as we
:37:59. > :38:03.try to find a status that both sides can agree to. It sounds like you, I
:38:04. > :38:08.do not know if you are smoking for Vote Leave or Boris Johnson, it
:38:09. > :38:15.sounds like you are veering towards the Norway option? A compromise? In
:38:16. > :38:19.the single market? My issue with the EU has been a lack of sovereignty
:38:20. > :38:24.and democracy. Of course, there are economic issues. It would not
:38:25. > :38:29.exactly be no way, we are different country, 65 million, but the idea of
:38:30. > :38:33.staying within it, market but outside the political integration,
:38:34. > :38:37.that is usable. And it means free movement of Labour, not EU
:38:38. > :38:42.citizenship with all of those acquired rights. We have been
:38:43. > :38:46.through three months of agony. The public have been led to believe that
:38:47. > :38:51.what they have voted for is an end to this. A very important point-
:38:52. > :38:55.from the moment we joined we had the right to take up a job offer in
:38:56. > :39:00.another member state, legal entitlement if you presented your
:39:01. > :39:03.contract. But changed the Maastricht Treaty with EU citizenship, people
:39:04. > :39:08.given legal entitlement to vote in other countries and claim welfare
:39:09. > :39:12.and have the same university tuition and so on. That will change. Why do
:39:13. > :39:18.you not say this during the campaign? To say that you want a
:39:19. > :39:23.system whereby we have free movement of Labour? Completely at odds with
:39:24. > :39:27.what the public think they have voted for. I have spent four months
:39:28. > :39:31.addressing rallies virtually every day and everyone I would say, but
:39:32. > :39:37.not imagine that if we leave, that means zero immigration, we will have
:39:38. > :39:43.some control over who comes in. You have given the impression... Your
:39:44. > :39:46.campaign has given the impression that we will not be able to get
:39:47. > :39:51.immigration down to tens of thousands inside the EU, most people
:39:52. > :39:56.would say that gives the impression we will get it down if we are
:39:57. > :40:00.outside? We want a measure of control, it would be for the future
:40:01. > :40:04.parliament to determine those numbers and how many students and
:40:05. > :40:08.doctors and whatever, but nobody has ever tried to put a number on it,
:40:09. > :40:13.that will depend on the state of the economy at the time. Thank you.
:40:14. > :40:16.Christine, we're out of time. We have hit a nerve with band. Thank
:40:17. > :40:20.you so much. -- down. OK, there's one other potentially
:40:21. > :40:22.momentous area to look at tonight: Time to dust off those
:40:23. > :40:26.old Disunited Kingdom cliches that were so popular during
:40:27. > :40:27.the Scottish referendum. Kirsty - give me a flavour
:40:28. > :40:31.of the talk in Scotland about a second independence
:40:32. > :40:44.referendum there. Well, firstly, after such a decisive
:40:45. > :40:49.vote in Scotland to remain, this country feels like it is in limbo,
:40:50. > :40:53.people are bewildered and devastated that England voted to leave and
:40:54. > :40:57.Scotland is unable to move forward, Nicola Sturgeon says referendum is
:40:58. > :41:02.highly likely but she cannot afford to lose again and she has said there
:41:03. > :41:06.is no guarantee that people who voted no in the first referendum
:41:07. > :41:12.would vote for independence. So many questions. What would the impact be
:41:13. > :41:16.on the economy and Scotland? Look what happened to oil after the last
:41:17. > :41:21.one. Would we really have a closed border and tariffs when we trade 64%
:41:22. > :41:25.and the rest of the UK? And what currency would Scotland use? We
:41:26. > :41:31.cannot use the pound and will not use the euro. But for many people
:41:32. > :41:37.now, and Bishop of the EU is a fundamental, non-negotiable so the
:41:38. > :41:40.SNP is looking for a period of calm. Nicola Sturgeon had option but to
:41:41. > :41:44.address the question of an independence referendum straightaway
:41:45. > :41:47.this morning. The manifesto the SNP was elected on last month said
:41:48. > :41:53.this... The Scottish parliament should have the right to hold
:41:54. > :41:56.another referendum if there is a significant and material change in
:41:57. > :42:02.the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken
:42:03. > :42:06.out of the EU against our will. Scotland does face the prospect. It
:42:07. > :42:10.is a significant and material change in circumstances and it is therefore
:42:11. > :42:15.a statement of the obvious that the option of a second referendum must
:42:16. > :42:22.be on the table. And it is on the table. From here, the UK seems in a
:42:23. > :42:26.very different place and Scotland is very much another country. Now there
:42:27. > :42:31.is a greater period of uncertainty north of the border than in England.
:42:32. > :42:35.The mechanics of the second referendum or not clear what it is
:42:36. > :42:39.unlikely that Westminster would deny Scotland a fresh independence vote
:42:40. > :42:45.because, from the Shetland Isles to the Borders, the majority wants to
:42:46. > :42:48.stay within the EU. There is a sense of unreality today. People cannot
:42:49. > :42:54.quite believe their southern neighbours would be such worlds
:42:55. > :42:59.apart. I cannot believe we have done this. I am very scared. Especially
:43:00. > :43:04.with the Tory government that we have. I think especially in
:43:05. > :43:09.Scotland, we do not have much of the boys in the UK at all. Do you feel
:43:10. > :43:17.that we are very different in Scotland from England? Yes, there is
:43:18. > :43:21.going to be a split. In and out. The roots of our relations with Europe
:43:22. > :43:23.are long and steep, the old reliance, the treaty between the
:43:24. > :43:28.Scots and the French were signed in the 13th century and Scotland has a
:43:29. > :43:32.long tradition of sending its sons and daughters overseas, all over the
:43:33. > :43:37.world, and we, in turn, have welcomed many different nations you-
:43:38. > :43:41.Russians, Italians, Pakistanis, and immigration does not seem to be the
:43:42. > :43:45.same issue here as it is south of the border. Why is it that
:43:46. > :43:51.immigration does not seem to be such an issue as it is in England? I
:43:52. > :43:55.think that Scotland as a race of people are more multicultural, our
:43:56. > :43:59.culture is more varied, if you think about storytelling and music,
:44:00. > :44:03.anything like that, I think that we are more accepting of new ideas. Are
:44:04. > :44:14.you Scottish or French? Neither, I am Italian! Italian! And tell me,
:44:15. > :44:17.you feel welcome in Scotland? This morning, when it came out of my
:44:18. > :44:25.flat, I was feeling a little bit less welcome. But I think that they
:44:26. > :44:32.voted for staying. I think I will try to feel welcome anyway because I
:44:33. > :44:35.am welcome, maybe! In six weeks, the eyes of the world will be on
:44:36. > :44:39.Edinburgh for another reason- people will come from over the world to the
:44:40. > :44:43.biggest international arts festival on the planet. And the festival was
:44:44. > :44:46.set up in the wake of the Second World War to encourage cultural
:44:47. > :44:53.relations between Scotland, Britain and Europe to make sure that another
:44:54. > :44:57.war in Europe would be unimaginable. Nicola Sturgeon made it clear that
:44:58. > :45:01.she wants to build a consensus in the country around referendum. Now
:45:02. > :45:05.it is possible that senior figures from other political parties would
:45:06. > :45:10.be part of that consensus. Referring, finally, to live in an
:45:11. > :45:13.independent Scotland within the EU rather than in an increasingly this
:45:14. > :45:18.United Kingdom divorced from the EU. Now Scotland-England is one division
:45:19. > :45:23.- young and old another. There's an anger in large
:45:24. > :45:27.parts of the country, parts that have not felt blessed
:45:28. > :45:29.by the benefits of globalisation in contrast to bustling metropolitan
:45:30. > :45:32.hubs like London or Manchester And that schism
:45:33. > :45:42.has asserted itself to the shock Filmmaker Nick Blakemore spent
:45:43. > :45:46.the last couple of days in Burnley, which voted two-thirds for Brexit,
:45:47. > :45:48.to see what was motivating We won't lose control,
:45:49. > :45:55.we have lost control. For me it comes down to,
:45:56. > :46:01.when we vote somebody in, whoever gets into the government,
:46:02. > :46:03.they make the rules. And at the moment there
:46:04. > :46:05.is somebody above them. That's why I'm going
:46:06. > :46:08.to be voting to leave. What really gets me is this,
:46:09. > :46:11.I fought for this country in 82. This government now is going,
:46:12. > :46:26.immigrants, here you go, tick, I don't want it,
:46:27. > :46:29.send them back home. We joined the EU
:46:30. > :46:31.for one thing, yeah? And then it comes to light,
:46:32. > :46:41.it's not a better life. Vote for hope, that was the thing
:46:42. > :46:44.in the paper. You can't vote for hope,
:46:45. > :46:49.there's no hope nowadays. We've had enough of the Tory
:46:50. > :46:53.scenario, the The minute this referendum
:46:54. > :47:03.is over and if Remain I think we should
:47:04. > :47:18.leave and give it a try and we should get our
:47:19. > :47:20.independence back because it's just It has, I've got to admit,
:47:21. > :47:30.it's the one thing, it came down to democracy,
:47:31. > :47:34.sovereignty, and the NHS. There is a lot of people come from
:47:35. > :47:40.abroad and they've done good for I was born in Germany,
:47:41. > :47:45.I'm a foreigner myself. We are not little Englanders.
:47:46. > :47:48.We've always looked outwards. England was the greatest
:47:49. > :47:58.thing I've ever known when I came over here and you were
:47:59. > :48:01.free and if you worked hard you got I've never had a day's
:48:02. > :48:06.benefit, I've never had I'm 83 years of age
:48:07. > :48:10.and all I can get is Not that I need it,
:48:11. > :48:14.I've got food in my belly, I'm getting by and I'm
:48:15. > :48:16.not complaining. When I look round there
:48:17. > :48:21.is a lot of folk worse. But I do object to people who have
:48:22. > :48:24.worked all their life, just None of us know what
:48:25. > :48:27.the future holds. I think that's why everyone
:48:28. > :48:31.is undecided. My main point is,
:48:32. > :48:33.you can't base your argument on a country and an entire
:48:34. > :48:36.superstate that hasn't got your best That's my main reason
:48:37. > :48:44.for leaving, who else is going to look after our country
:48:45. > :48:46.but us? Good evening, and
:48:47. > :49:00.welcome at the end of this momentous day when each one
:49:01. > :49:03.of us has had the chance to say what At 10pm the polling stations close
:49:04. > :49:08.after weeks, months, years of The BBC is forecasting that the UK
:49:09. > :49:15.has voted to leave the European Union after
:49:16. > :49:21.more than 40 years. Good morning.
:49:22. > :49:24.Hello. Come on in.
:49:25. > :49:26.Come out first. I don't know yet, I haven't
:49:27. > :49:33.switched it on, I've put Fingers crossed I'm not
:49:34. > :49:38.going to look stupid. Really?
:49:39. > :49:42.Seriously? Tanya, just tell me what's
:49:43. > :49:51.your reaction to that? I'm over the moon,
:49:52. > :49:53.I don't know what to say. Everybody woke up in time.
:49:54. > :50:03.Everybody listened. Everybody understands, yes,
:50:04. > :50:28.it's going to be rough at the Some views from Burnley. With me,
:50:29. > :50:31.two historians, David Starkey and Kate Williams, from the Times
:50:32. > :50:37.newspaper Tim on Connery and writer and equality campaign Paris leads.
:50:38. > :50:42.What is your reaction as you listened to that? I recognise those
:50:43. > :50:47.towns, that's where and from command they will be upset when they find
:50:48. > :50:52.out they've been lied to. They've been lied to. People voted with good
:50:53. > :50:56.intentions but we are being led down a very dark path. Let's asked
:50:57. > :51:02.whether the nation is in some way historically unusually divided.
:51:03. > :51:06.Kate, are we in... We are incredibly divided, this is one of the most
:51:07. > :51:10.divisive events since the Civil War and the most historical events since
:51:11. > :51:13.the act of union itself. We see divisions between North and South,
:51:14. > :51:17.young and old and the fact Scotland will have a referendum. Northern
:51:18. > :51:22.Ireland, there are concerns about Martin McGuinness saying joining
:51:23. > :51:26.together and we know the Scottish referendum will trigger questions
:51:27. > :51:29.about the referendum in Wales so we are seeing massive divisions. When
:51:30. > :51:32.we see a petition getting lots of people's signatures saying London
:51:33. > :51:38.might set up as a different city state. I think it is a joke!
:51:39. > :51:42.LAUGHTER I'm not entirely sure, there is some
:51:43. > :51:47.joking in it but that shows the level of the division. It is huge.
:51:48. > :51:50.You are both Remainers and you are both Brexit supporters, David, do
:51:51. > :51:57.you think the nation is historically divided? It is but I think Kate is
:51:58. > :52:00.slightly exaggerating, I can think Ireland, Roman Catholicism, I can
:52:01. > :52:04.think of all sorts of things that have split us a map even the whole
:52:05. > :52:09.question of whether we fought the Nazis or not, the country was hugely
:52:10. > :52:14.divided. The more interesting question is why this has happened.
:52:15. > :52:17.It seemed to me your Burnley film was absolutely right. What has
:52:18. > :52:23.happened is the European Union is a proxy. It's a proxy for deep
:52:24. > :52:29.discontent with experts, with the political class and so on. I think
:52:30. > :52:33.it is also the fact that the political parties have been led, for
:52:34. > :52:37.the last nearly 20 years by leaders, Blair on the one hand and Cameron on
:52:38. > :52:43.the other, that thought it was very clever to kick their supporters in
:52:44. > :52:47.the goolies. Was at the right thing to get out of it if it is just a
:52:48. > :52:52.proxy, you are implying, let's kick something, the EU is over there,
:52:53. > :52:56.let's do that? A lot of people voted on that basis, I think. It's very
:52:57. > :53:00.important we recognise that, which of course also allows for the kind
:53:01. > :53:05.of point Daniel Hannan was making that perhaps we could begin to
:53:06. > :53:09.reunite as a very real possibility. I think that what we've got to do is
:53:10. > :53:13.something which no recent government has had the courage to do. We've got
:53:14. > :53:19.a rediscovery sense of international interest. Britain has spent the
:53:20. > :53:23.whole of its time arguing with got to be good, with got to support
:53:24. > :53:28.European rights because otherwise the Russians will misbehave. We've
:53:29. > :53:33.really got to start to do a Goodall. The voters we saw in Burnley are the
:53:34. > :53:37.ones political parties are finding it difficult to reach, any political
:53:38. > :53:42.party -- Charles de Gaulle. What is the answer to that? They are not
:53:43. > :53:46.natural Conservative voters, your party is nowhere near them. Sure,
:53:47. > :53:50.and you talk about Britain being divided but I'm based in Washington
:53:51. > :53:53.for the times these paper and I'm seeing the whole Trump phenomenon
:53:54. > :53:57.over there, we are all seeing the whole Trump phenomenon in. We are
:53:58. > :54:01.six or seven years after the global crash and immediately after the
:54:02. > :54:03.global crash people wanted governments to stabilise the
:54:04. > :54:08.situation but now there is the hunger for reform and remedy. I
:54:09. > :54:13.think we are seeing that right across the world. Today's revolt,
:54:14. > :54:16.yesterday's revolt by Tour of Britain is, and they were the
:54:17. > :54:20.overwhelming explanation for why we are leaving the European Union, that
:54:21. > :54:24.has to be heeded. This isn't just a vote to leave the European Union,
:54:25. > :54:26.this is a cry for help from a huge proportion of our publisher who
:54:27. > :54:32.think all attacks isn't working for them. It is to do with austerity, I
:54:33. > :54:38.agree but Wales has 500 million subsidy and huge votes against, we
:54:39. > :54:43.didn't hear much talk about sovereignty in the same way and the
:54:44. > :54:46.concern is this will not give the people what they want. You are
:54:47. > :54:52.making an elementary confusion. No, I'm not. You are assuming the
:54:53. > :54:55.economy is what always mattered. Austerity is tied up with the
:54:56. > :55:02.economy. What this photo shows is that it is culture that matters --
:55:03. > :55:10.what this vote shows. Politicians connecting with voters, Jo Cox did
:55:11. > :55:14.it well and SNP in Scotland. Labour and Conservatives must put up their
:55:15. > :55:18.hands and admit they are not getting it right. Your point about the
:55:19. > :55:23.voters in Burnley, at the moment they are floating voters, the
:55:24. > :55:28.Conservative leader who was as clever as Disraeli. Remember,
:55:29. > :55:31.Disraeli captured the working man's vote in 1867 and there is the
:55:32. > :55:40.possibility now of a Boris or another charismatic politician.
:55:41. > :55:47.Let's ask if you think Boris is a healing politician? Horace's speech
:55:48. > :55:51.was extraordinary, it wasn't a victory speech, I think he realises
:55:52. > :55:55.he's got it wrong and this is really serious -- Boris's speech. I hope we
:55:56. > :56:03.can have another referendum. Bad loser! I think I'd rather be a bad
:56:04. > :56:07.loser, I've got more important things to worry about. People feel
:56:08. > :56:11.they have been lied to. People have been lied to. There is so much more
:56:12. > :56:15.voter regret than I've seen before. It is a clear illustration of why
:56:16. > :56:19.the vote went why it did. People will be surprised with Boris
:56:20. > :56:22.Johnson, he's probably the likely next Prime Minister of this country.
:56:23. > :56:26.If you look at his record, he was championing the Living Wage before
:56:27. > :56:30.other Conservatives. Same-sex marriage. He opposed the tax credit
:56:31. > :56:34.cuts George Osborne proposed, he's a more interesting conservative than
:56:35. > :56:37.people think. We have talked about the Burnley divide and the
:56:38. > :56:41.metropolitan elite, but what about the generational divide? It is
:56:42. > :56:51.striking, the under 45 Sam voted to stay in and be over 45 is to stay
:56:52. > :56:57.out. There was a debate on Radio 5 live called grandma, what have you
:56:58. > :57:02.done? The older generation don't have to live here as long as the
:57:03. > :57:09.younger generation. Should we introduce a cut-off point beyond
:57:10. > :57:13.which you can't vote? Your sense of sublime self entitlement. Are we
:57:14. > :57:21.going to have those under 35 with two votes? We have had so much taken
:57:22. > :57:26.away from us, I don't have to have my airtime taken away as well! You
:57:27. > :57:29.haven't answered my question. You are not letting me because you are
:57:30. > :57:33.interrupting me because you are a privileged white man who wants to
:57:34. > :57:36.speak over me and this is the problem. Young people are getting
:57:37. > :57:40.sick of it, sick of being spoken over and six of being patronised. We
:57:41. > :57:45.have to pay for our education in a way that your generation didn't have
:57:46. > :57:49.too. Everything that gets taken away, young people are being cut
:57:50. > :57:53.off. I think there is a lot of frustration and for young people
:57:54. > :57:57.Europe is somewhere we go on holiday and go clubbing, we don't have this
:57:58. > :58:00.xenophobia. The young vote will be vital in Scotland, they gave the
:58:01. > :58:06.vote to 16-year-olds and they were massive in the turnout. I noticed
:58:07. > :58:09.Nigel Farage say, we can engage with the Commonwealth but I've watched
:58:10. > :58:13.the Australian media who said today, why are we still linked to this
:58:14. > :58:16.country that will be diminished, lose Scotland, possibly Wales and
:58:17. > :58:22.the Commonwealth is due for the chop as well. This is not... Be careful
:58:23. > :58:27.what you wish for is the message. In our relationship with Europe we have
:58:28. > :58:31.a situation where people from Africa, Asia, Australasia, have
:58:32. > :58:35.second-class status when it comes to coming into Britain, we prioritise
:58:36. > :58:40.Europeans. The problem with with Little Britain is little
:58:41. > :58:42.Europeanism. There will not be a Britain in ten years! That's about
:58:43. > :58:44.it. Normally we are meant to be
:58:45. > :58:48.the quietly stable, pragmatic nation that doesn't do revolutions
:58:49. > :58:51.or chop people's heads off. But we will be back
:58:52. > :58:56.with a special programme And right now, or as soon as I can
:58:57. > :59:01.get to the Green Room, Go to our Facebook page,
:59:02. > :59:08.ask questions there. A few of us will be talking
:59:09. > :59:12.through the day.