:00:10. > :00:17.I do not think it would be right for me to try to be the captain that
:00:18. > :00:25.steers the country to its next destination. When you voted leave,
:00:26. > :00:30.was it about the EU, was it about change of any kind? Or was it about
:00:31. > :00:39.something I haven't mentioned? Is everything. Right. I no longer had
:00:40. > :00:46.confidence in his leadership. I feel that I've served in the best way I
:00:47. > :00:49.can. Today at Westminster in the last few minutes there are more
:00:50. > :00:52.labour resignations, three Shadow ministers... Get an election and he
:00:53. > :01:05.will get in. And I thought I was having a bad
:01:06. > :01:11.day! You were fighting for the exit. The British people voted in favour
:01:12. > :01:15.of the exit. My pitch is very simple, I'm Theresa May and I think
:01:16. > :01:20.I'm the best person to be Prime Minister of this country. I'm really
:01:21. > :01:24.sorry to interrupt, just hearing that Michael Gove is preparing to
:01:25. > :01:29.announce his candidacy as well. What is your to Michael Gove?
:01:30. > :01:37.That person cannot be me. I came reluctantly but firmly to the
:01:38. > :01:44.conclusion that I should stand and Boris should stand aside. I cannot,
:01:45. > :01:48.unfortunately, get on with doing what I want to do, so it will be up
:01:49. > :01:52.to someone else now. I wish them every possible success.
:01:53. > :01:53.For once, the cliches seem almost inadequate.
:01:54. > :01:55.It really was a political earthquake.
:01:56. > :01:58.We really are in uncharted waters and we really do have no
:01:59. > :02:03.So, the search for clarity, and maybe even some
:02:04. > :02:06.And while it's a little previous to suggest that
:02:07. > :02:13.much dust has settled, a week has now passed
:02:14. > :02:15.since the Referendum result was revealed, so we have,
:02:16. > :02:18.at least, had some time to consider its possible ramifications.
:02:19. > :02:21.Time now, then, obviously, for a poll examining where we were,
:02:22. > :02:24.where we are and where we think we might be going with Brexit.
:02:25. > :02:28.It's thrown up a few surprises and some rather bad news for anyone
:02:29. > :02:34.hoping that they'd seen the back of the ballot box for a while...
:02:35. > :02:42.Have you had enough of voting yet? Apparently not. In fact almost half
:02:43. > :02:47.of voters's polls said Britain should hold another general election
:02:48. > :02:51.before the UK starts to negotiate Brexit, so that each party can set
:02:52. > :02:59.out its own vision for life outside the EU. And maybe this is why. 59%
:03:00. > :03:03.told us they were not confident in Britain's political leaders getting
:03:04. > :03:10.the best possible Brexit deal for Britain. That rises to 76% of Remain
:03:11. > :03:15.voters. And what about buyers remorse? Those voters who supposedly
:03:16. > :03:20.want to change their minds. They do not. 92% of respondents said they
:03:21. > :03:26.would definitely vote the same way. But of them, 5% of And voters said
:03:27. > :03:31.they would now change their vote, compared to just 2% of Remain
:03:32. > :03:35.voters. And finally, imagine if this all just went away. More than a
:03:36. > :03:40.third of voters said they think it might. They don't know if Britain
:03:41. > :03:45.will actually leave the EU and 16% in the UK will actively defied the
:03:46. > :03:47.Brexit vote and find a way to stay in.
:03:48. > :03:49.Of course, that's only part of the post-Ref picture.
:03:50. > :03:52.The real action is unfolding at Westminster where just
:03:53. > :03:54.about everything is up for grabs on both sides of the House.
:03:55. > :03:58.To provide a measure of the mayhem, no pun intended, you could probably
:03:59. > :04:00.argue tonight that the Parliamentary party which didn't want a leadership
:04:01. > :04:04.battle is having one while the Parliamentary party that
:04:05. > :04:05.desperately does want one, isn't.
:04:06. > :04:10.Newsnight's political editor, Nick Watt, is filling his boots.
:04:11. > :04:22.Nick, you have found out about a plan to help ease Jeremy Corbyn out
:04:23. > :04:25.of the door? Yes, all the signs from the Shadow Chancellor today John
:04:26. > :04:29.McDonald work that Jeremy Corbyn is not going anywhere and he's going to
:04:30. > :04:33.stay. But I understand there was a delegation of Shadow Cabinet
:04:34. > :04:36.ministers yesterday who tried and failed to meet Jeremy Corbyn to
:04:37. > :04:39.suggest a plan to allow him to resign with dignity. They were
:04:40. > :04:43.suggesting that a commission could be set up over the summer and that
:04:44. > :04:47.would in trench some of his ideas about how you democratise the Labour
:04:48. > :04:51.Party and would also push on the party to commit to some of his core
:04:52. > :04:55.policies on inequality. If that could happen and some of the
:04:56. > :04:59.leadership contenders could agree to that, he would perhaps pre-announced
:05:00. > :05:02.his retirement and he would go after the Labour conference. What is
:05:03. > :05:07.really interesting about this is that people like John McDonald are
:05:08. > :05:12.very wary of this because they are scared that the moment he gives up
:05:13. > :05:16.the power, that is it for the left. But I understand that some members
:05:17. > :05:20.on the left who were in that room last year when his candidacy was
:05:21. > :05:26.approved that they thought with great reluctance and sadness that
:05:27. > :05:32.this may be the wise thing to do because they fear that the party
:05:33. > :05:39.could divide. I hesitate to ask, but more bad news for the Labour leader
:05:40. > :05:46.tonight? Yes, an interesting YouGov poll of Unite members, whose general
:05:47. > :05:51.secretary is one of Jeremy Corbyn's most ardent supporters and this
:05:52. > :05:54.shows that 75% of people who voted Labour in the general election last
:05:55. > :05:58.year believe that Jeremy Corbyn will not be Prime Minister. It wouldn't
:05:59. > :06:02.surprise me if Jeremy Corbyn's opponent in the Labour Party picked
:06:03. > :06:06.up on this to challenge one of his central arguments. That Central
:06:07. > :06:09.argue it is, I may not have any support at Westminster but I do have
:06:10. > :06:18.support in the wider labour movement. Important health warning,
:06:19. > :06:21.election day to admit that YouGov were not able to do the full waiting
:06:22. > :06:26.you would normally expect because they do not know the full and exact
:06:27. > :06:29.demographic breakdown of Unite members. But we shouldn't forget
:06:30. > :06:33.that there is a contest to choose the next Prime Minister of this
:06:34. > :06:37.country, so what I thought I would do is take a look at how that is
:06:38. > :06:38.going and also see how the front runner, to reason may, is getting
:06:39. > :06:51.on. Who would have believed it? The
:06:52. > :06:56.plodder of the Cabinet who issues the political gossip and the party
:06:57. > :07:01.circuit is emerging as the front runner in the Tory leadership
:07:02. > :07:04.contest. She brings to her work eight professionalism, dedication
:07:05. > :07:08.and hard work, a willingness to confront difficult problems, and
:07:09. > :07:12.that may be in great measure due to the fact that she is a woman. Which
:07:13. > :07:18.is probably a positive at the present time in my view in terms of
:07:19. > :07:20.our national politics. There is an unmistakable buzz around the Home
:07:21. > :07:27.Secretary and her rivals are concerned. 36 hours ago, Boris
:07:28. > :07:30.Johnson appeared to be the slam dunk candidate in the Tory leadership
:07:31. > :07:37.contest. After his former friend Michael Gove ended his lifetime's
:07:38. > :07:40.ambition to be Prime Minister, the question tonight is whether the
:07:41. > :07:48.Theresa May juggernaut is unstoppable. Like it or not, Theresa
:07:49. > :07:53.May is now defining this leadership contest and even influencing wider
:07:54. > :07:56.government policy. It's incredibly important we maintain fiscal
:07:57. > :08:00.credibility... George Osborne indicated today that he would
:08:01. > :08:04.abandon his plan to achieve an overall budget surplus, a day after
:08:05. > :08:08.the Home Secretary said she would do just that. And at his campaign
:08:09. > :08:12.launch, Michael Gove had his sights set on Theresa May when he said that
:08:13. > :08:19.the next Prime Minister must be a Brexit supporter. But Michael Gove
:08:20. > :08:23.knows he has too overcome the perception that he is guilty of a
:08:24. > :08:28.double act of treachery against two old friends, David Cameron and Boris
:08:29. > :08:36.Johnson. As we see here today, you have to conclude that it looks as
:08:37. > :08:40.though he has gone over the Reichenbach falls with Boris
:08:41. > :08:44.Johnson, taken him over the falls but done some damage to his own
:08:45. > :08:47.reputation. He's now gone down into the marketplace and has been
:08:48. > :08:51.swinging punches like the rest of them. Fans of the Justice Secretary
:08:52. > :08:56.say he has the brains and personal touch to make it. He is a powerhouse
:08:57. > :09:00.of a man, an intellectual I've known for 30 years, I've watched him
:09:01. > :09:04.develop. He's a radical reformer and a man who has always led his
:09:05. > :09:09.politics by conviction. He's the one who persuaded me to in politics. He
:09:10. > :09:14.has the same vision for our country that I do, which is that we can
:09:15. > :09:16.really bring everyone together. But momentum appears to be building up
:09:17. > :09:30.behind Andrei led ' -- Andrea Ledsom. Perhaps she
:09:31. > :09:37.could become the main leadership challenger to Theresa May. William
:09:38. > :09:50.Hague was a religiously junior figure in 1997. Iain Duncan Smith
:09:51. > :09:53.had been a Maastricht rebel. So Andrea Ledsom could come from the
:09:54. > :09:59.outside to give Theresa May a run for her money. Some of Theresa May's
:10:00. > :10:05.supporters hope this contest could be over by next week. They are no
:10:06. > :10:11.others that if this goes to the second stage, decided by grassroots
:10:12. > :10:15.Tory members, the support for the Remain side could count against her.
:10:16. > :10:19.The main test for Theresa May is whether or not she could persuade
:10:20. > :10:24.that Tory members should elect her when she was four Remain Ulster and
:10:25. > :10:29.the majority evidence was that a majority of them were four Leave.
:10:30. > :10:35.British politics is being refashioned right in front of our
:10:36. > :10:39.eyes. But even in the middle of a revolution, perhaps it will be the
:10:40. > :10:44.steadiest member of the crew who will guide us to the next stage.
:10:45. > :10:48.The one in Burnley next where, you'll recall, we canvassed
:10:49. > :10:50.the immediate post-Vote feelings pretty comprehensively.
:10:51. > :10:53.Will feuding friends forgive and forget?
:10:54. > :10:56.In a moment, Nick Blakemore will find out, but first a quick
:10:57. > :10:58.reminder of how this particular patch of Lancastrian land lay last
:10:59. > :11:19.I'm over the moon. I don't know what to say. We did it! Is everybody woke
:11:20. > :11:23.up in time. Everybody listened. Everybody understands. Yes it's
:11:24. > :11:29.going to be rough at the beginning, but... We've done it.
:11:30. > :11:40.Just to warn you, you may hear some strong language in the background of
:11:41. > :12:01.Nick's film. We've got to work together to make
:12:02. > :12:09.this work. It's like anything, you either go for it or you are left
:12:10. > :12:16.behind. We are all in the same boat. We now move forward. We are not
:12:17. > :12:27.Leave and Remain, we are united kingdom. No, we are Leave, we've
:12:28. > :12:28.left. We have to remember that a large proportion of this country
:12:29. > :12:49.voted Remain. This time we will just carry on. As
:12:50. > :12:54.it were. We just want people to know that England is not an easy touch.
:12:55. > :12:59.You know what I mean? You can't just come here and take, take, take. To
:13:00. > :13:03.enjoy the advantages of this country, you have to contribute.
:13:04. > :13:08.It's as simple as that. Wider you think we voted for leave? Tired of
:13:09. > :13:17.paying out for people who think it's a career option to just be a dosser
:13:18. > :13:19.and get a council house and take, take, take. We are all hard working
:13:20. > :13:33.men and that's what we're sick of. I actually voted In last week. The
:13:34. > :13:37.reason was because... I just feel that Britain has a massive role to
:13:38. > :13:43.play in the European Union and it doesn't make sense for me to come
:13:44. > :13:47.out of that. I'm a second-generation Italian, so my mum and dad came over
:13:48. > :13:52.here. What I think the biggest thing is that... I was born here but all
:13:53. > :13:58.my friends around here have no issue whatsoever with any foreign people
:13:59. > :14:06.coming to this country, because, as long as the foreign people that come
:14:07. > :14:12.here contribute, that is the main thing. The biggest problem this
:14:13. > :14:18.country has is foreign people who come over here and grab off the
:14:19. > :14:28.state, that is the biggest issue. I did, yeah, definitely. I voted
:14:29. > :14:31.Leave, which the majority of people round here did. I'm not sure if it
:14:32. > :14:35.were the right thing all the wrong thing, we will soon find out. People
:14:36. > :14:41.are making laws now that we don't even vote on. That's my biggest
:14:42. > :14:44.gripe. I would definitely say that we've seen a decline in our living
:14:45. > :14:53.standards, especially in the north-west. The North of England. I
:14:54. > :14:56.have family who live down south, like Basingstoke, and you go down
:14:57. > :15:01.there and it's like a different country. We talk about what's
:15:02. > :15:06.happened down south compared to us in the north-west, but if you think
:15:07. > :15:10.about it, we have a say on where that money goes. I would say to
:15:11. > :15:13.anyone who is annoyed about this referendum, annoyed that we voted to
:15:14. > :15:16.leave and they voted to remain, get involved in politics right now
:15:17. > :15:21.because right now it's the biggest change you can make. I would say
:15:22. > :15:27.that if that is going to be a left wing ever again, they've got to
:15:28. > :15:35.realise that they're not the super Internet legend people that they
:15:36. > :15:37.think they are. They have to respect the voice of normal working people.
:15:38. > :15:48.-- super intelligent. I see the pros and cons, either way,
:15:49. > :15:50.to be honest with you, I think, putting it bluntly, we are going to
:15:51. > :16:05.get screwed, either way! Joining me now is the
:16:06. > :16:07.novelist Kazuo Ishiguro. Japanese-born, raised in Surrey and,
:16:08. > :16:09.as the author of The Remains of the Day, the man responsible
:16:10. > :16:12.for a lyrical evocation of interwar England so powerful and convincing
:16:13. > :16:15.that it won the Booker Prize Kazuo, I mention those
:16:16. > :16:19.three parts of your past because they paint you,
:16:20. > :16:21.perhaps, as a literary poster boy for a multi-cultural,
:16:22. > :16:22.integrated Britain. Yet you write in today's
:16:23. > :16:25.Financial Times of your fears that that Britain may be
:16:26. > :16:41.under mortal threat. Mortal threat may be putting it
:16:42. > :16:45.melodramatically but I think this is very serious, in my whole life time
:16:46. > :16:50.here, I have never felt this anxious... The nation is bitterly
:16:51. > :16:57.divided. It is leaderless, it is very anxious. If I was a strategist
:16:58. > :17:01.for the far right now, I would be getting very excited, this is
:17:02. > :17:05.probably the best opportunities in the 1930s to push Britain towards
:17:06. > :17:10.some kind of neo-Nazi racism, and I think that we have got to... All the
:17:11. > :17:14.decent people in this country, and I mean people on both sides of the
:17:15. > :17:18.referendum divide, they have got to rally around some kind of decent
:17:19. > :17:27.heart of Britain, and I think that's decent heart... I do not doubt it.
:17:28. > :17:36.Grimm Tales this week. I was shaken, I was a firm remained person, and I
:17:37. > :17:42.was shaken, like a lot of people. -- grim tales. -- Remain person. I have
:17:43. > :17:48.faith about the essential decency of this country, speaking as someone
:17:49. > :17:51.who grew up as the only visible foreigner at school, the only
:17:52. > :17:54.foreign boy at school, the only foreign kid in the gimme nitty, over
:17:55. > :18:00.the years I have lived in various parts of Britain, where very large
:18:01. > :18:04.numbers of immigrants came from the Asian subcontinent, the Caribbean,
:18:05. > :18:09.West Africa, during a time of enormous economic turmoil in the
:18:10. > :18:13.1970s and 1980s, people like the national front and the BNP have
:18:14. > :18:17.never gained a whole. Just as it was in the first half of the 20th
:18:18. > :18:21.century, basically, and I can tell from my perspective, I can tell you
:18:22. > :18:28.everything I know about this country, it is essentially a very
:18:29. > :18:33.decent, tolerance country, it does racism very badly, even worse than
:18:34. > :18:37.football! LAUGHTER When fascism was rampaging across
:18:38. > :18:42.Europe, in the first of the 20th century, it could not get a foothold
:18:43. > :18:47.here. But, I think... We should not be complacent now. The country does
:18:48. > :18:51.need... The decent part of the country needs something to rally
:18:52. > :18:56.around. Let's identify what that is, plenty of people will be watching
:18:57. > :19:02.this, as you refer to in your piece, who wanted to leave the European
:19:03. > :19:06.Union, and will be just as haunted by this spectre as anybody on the
:19:07. > :19:09.Remain side, it is a challenge to separate the toxicity which seems to
:19:10. > :19:13.have been emboldened by the result and the people who will be just as
:19:14. > :19:19.alarmed by that emboldening as any DLs, how can we do that? I believe
:19:20. > :19:27.that the majority of people who voted leave are not racist, some
:19:28. > :19:33.are. -- as anybody else. At a local level, I would like to see some kind
:19:34. > :19:38.of campaign declaration, a petition, I cannot do it, I am from the
:19:39. > :19:42.Remain, I would like them to clearly say that they are against xenophobia
:19:43. > :19:50.and racism that is threatening to take over. Have you experienced any?
:19:51. > :19:55.No, just reading, a lot of people are anxious, we have heard reports
:19:56. > :20:00.of... Things that were not acceptable seeming to be acceptable
:20:01. > :20:05.now. People being told to go home. It is at that level at the moment. I
:20:06. > :20:12.do not know how deep it goes, I would like to see the people from
:20:13. > :20:23.the leave camp clearly isolate the racists by saying, this is not us. I
:20:24. > :20:37.would even offer them a slogan, "Leave Racism", with a hashtag as
:20:38. > :20:40.well. Everything needs that this -- these days. I would like to see
:20:41. > :20:44.another referendum, we need a new mandate about what kind of Brexit we
:20:45. > :20:49.are going to go for, for the new Prime Minister, whoever it is. We
:20:50. > :20:53.need some kind of discussion. You have pulled the pin on the second
:20:54. > :20:57.referendum grenade, just as our time together comes to an end, we will
:20:58. > :21:01.have to leave it there, thank you very much joining us. -- thank you
:21:02. > :21:11.very much for joining us. Of course, the referendum
:21:12. > :21:12.shockwaves reach much further And few countries have been
:21:13. > :21:16.watching events here more One of the original architects
:21:17. > :21:20.of the Common Market and, of course, long a historical obstacle
:21:21. > :21:22.to the UK's membership, the country today hosts a growing
:21:23. > :21:24.strain of Gallic Euroscepticism and may be developing
:21:25. > :21:26.an appetite for what has Newsnight's Gabriel Gatehouse has
:21:27. > :21:30.been taking a breath of French air to find out how events on this side
:21:31. > :21:33.of the Channel have I always wanted Britain to be
:21:34. > :22:01.part of European dreams. VOICEOVER: It may look
:22:02. > :22:03.like life as normal. But make no mistake,
:22:04. > :22:12.Brexit was an earthquake. I was like, no, no!
:22:13. > :22:18.You can't do that! On the side of the far right,
:22:19. > :22:28.it has come as a divine surprise. because as a disease
:22:29. > :22:44.it is very profound. In the run-up to the referendum,
:22:45. > :22:47.Newsnight met George Bertrand, one of the founding fathers
:22:48. > :22:49.of the European Union. The results for Britain
:22:50. > :22:59.are extremely complex But it is not only a domestic issue,
:23:00. > :23:04.but as it concerns us too. Mr Bertrand played a prominent role
:23:05. > :23:06.in shepherding Britain We consider Britain
:23:07. > :23:21.as an exceptional country. As itself, the role it
:23:22. > :23:23.has played in two wars, the way democratic
:23:24. > :23:24.life was developed... At the same time, we were absolutely
:23:25. > :23:27.aware that Europe without The English Parliamentary tradition
:23:28. > :23:30.has a very positive influence an unpopular centre-left
:23:31. > :23:44.government is trying to force through reforms
:23:45. > :23:46.to the labour code. The French,
:23:47. > :23:52.of course, are no strangers to this kind
:23:53. > :24:00.of labour protest. is a flight from the centre
:24:01. > :24:12.to the left and to the right. On the left, they see the EU as part
:24:13. > :24:15.of a neoliberal project which they blame for austerity,
:24:16. > :24:19.inequality and rising unemployment. And yet even here, some
:24:20. > :24:26.are dismayed by Brexit. It's shit, but we can't,
:24:27. > :24:42.as we say in French, The baby out with the bath water.
:24:43. > :24:47.Yes, we can't do that. In France, discontent
:24:48. > :24:49.with the political The chief beneficiaries are not
:24:50. > :25:04.on the left but on the right. The Front National was once a fringe
:25:05. > :25:17.movement, the preserve of ageing
:25:18. > :25:18.ex-colonialists bitter Like the left, young FN supporters
:25:19. > :25:23.rail against globalisation, but for them, Brexit
:25:24. > :26:15.is a cause for celebration. Polls suggest that the
:26:16. > :26:17.Front National could win The polls also show a rise
:26:18. > :26:20.in Eurosceptic sentiment. And the Front National leader,
:26:21. > :26:22.Marine Le Pen, has promised It's the same cocktail
:26:23. > :26:31.than for the Brexit. Anti-immigrant feeling,
:26:32. > :26:33.because it's an open door to immigration,
:26:34. > :26:34.refugees and possibly terrorism, so the second
:26:35. > :26:36.issue is insecurity, And the third idea is anti-elites,
:26:37. > :26:45.the idea that the people who govern us, they are so far away,
:26:46. > :26:47.they don't understand In a country with a proud,
:26:48. > :27:01.democratic tradition, Sure, they can vote for a choice
:27:02. > :27:06.of parties and politicians, in a language they no
:27:07. > :27:15.longer understand. In corridors of power across Europe,
:27:16. > :27:21.politicians, the centrist establishment, the people
:27:22. > :27:23.who by and large have governed this continent since the end
:27:24. > :27:25.of the Second World War, are suddenly realising that
:27:26. > :27:29.for a whole variety of different reasons, vast swathes
:27:30. > :27:38.of their electorate simply don't believe
:27:39. > :27:41.in them any more. It's not that the centrists aren't
:27:42. > :27:43.aware of the problem, they are. They just don't seem to know
:27:44. > :27:46.what to do about it. People have a sense
:27:47. > :27:49.that they are losing the control the arrival of huge companies
:27:50. > :27:54.from the other side of the world, You are losing control
:27:55. > :27:57.of the economy, you are losing control of the people
:27:58. > :27:59.coming into your nation. A lot of poor whites consider
:28:00. > :28:02.they are losing money, they are paying money
:28:03. > :28:06.for the newcomers. And I sense this anger all over
:28:07. > :28:11.the country here in France. that has no impact on these
:28:12. > :28:30.issues but you know, Because of lack of
:28:31. > :28:40.courage, essentially. For some, Brexit presents
:28:41. > :29:01.an opportunity for renewal. For others, it is a dangerous
:29:02. > :29:08.gamble. I'm angry because we are putting our
:29:09. > :29:12.respective security In spite of the economic and social
:29:13. > :29:19.divisions in Europe, we are the most balanced
:29:20. > :29:23.part of the world. The most human part
:29:24. > :29:27.of the world, the most socially-advanced
:29:28. > :29:30.in the world. Lose by 4% of the vote
:29:31. > :29:47.in a General Election and you find yourself in strong Opposition
:29:48. > :29:49.with a fighting chance of halting legislation
:29:50. > :29:51.and embarrassing the Government. Win 48% of the vote in a Referendum
:29:52. > :29:54.and you find yourself Politically your position is,
:29:55. > :30:01.in many ways, no stronger With all the Conservative leadership
:30:02. > :30:10.candidates now fully committed to Brexit and the winner of course
:30:11. > :30:13.guaranteed to govern, what will Some suggest we're approaching
:30:14. > :30:21.a fundamental redrawing of traditional party politics
:30:22. > :30:23.but few are prepared to predict Joining me now to survey
:30:24. > :30:35.the scene are... The journalist and broadcaster Paul
:30:36. > :30:37.Mason, The Times columnist Phil Collins, and adviser to Nick Clegg,
:30:38. > :30:44.Polly McKenzie. I would like to begin by asking you a
:30:45. > :30:47.very simple question, who is in the biggest mess at the moment, the
:30:48. > :30:52.Conservatives or the Labour Party? Polly, I will start with you?
:30:53. > :30:55.Probably the Labour Party, because at least the Conservatives have a
:30:56. > :30:59.process which will get them to a leader they will all be happy with.
:31:00. > :31:05.Whereas the Labour Party, frankly, this could go on for months or even
:31:06. > :31:09.years. The Conservative Party's mess is more important because they are
:31:10. > :31:12.visiting it on the rest of us, on the country. Their mess is more
:31:13. > :31:16.important in that sense, but the bigger mess if it weren't for that
:31:17. > :31:20.important fact is the Labour Party, which is facing the prospect it
:31:21. > :31:26.might not even exist soon. An existential threat to the Labour
:31:27. > :31:33.Party, Paul Mason? I noticed your political editor, comprehensibility
:31:34. > :31:37.was on the inside sources at Westminster said there had been tout
:31:38. > :31:42.-- omitted that there had been thousands of people on the streets
:31:43. > :31:47.tonight supporting Jeremy Corbyn. What you've seen is the equivalent
:31:48. > :31:52.of the Haka before the rugby match. If the rugby match actually kicks
:31:53. > :31:59.off, it could get brutal. I'm a Labour member and I voted Remain. We
:32:00. > :32:03.need to find a way to DS can it. These young central MPs have no idea
:32:04. > :32:07.what an actual struggle inside the labour movement looks like. Those of
:32:08. > :32:13.us who saw the miners strike and have seen what people are getting
:32:14. > :32:18.for right now fear... It is, it won't disappear. However, it may
:32:19. > :32:22.seriously split. Who speaks for you at the moment, politically? As a
:32:23. > :32:28.Corbyn friendly Remainer? Jeremy Corbyn. He is speaking but we, the
:32:29. > :32:33.wider Labour family, have to find some way of de-escalate think this
:32:34. > :32:43.and focusing on the policies. The fact is, Corbyn and John McDonnell
:32:44. > :32:52.have scored a fantastic success this week, knocking George Osborne away
:32:53. > :32:55.from his fiscal rule. I would be arguing for investment tax and
:32:56. > :33:00.spending to boost investment. That all needs to happen but of course
:33:01. > :33:03.it's going to Canon straight into the Brexit negotiations. We need
:33:04. > :33:09.both parties to be on the ball and thinking in a interest and national
:33:10. > :33:12.interested way. Phil Collins, the credit for the fiscal retreat of
:33:13. > :33:19.George Osborne being handed to Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell. I
:33:20. > :33:23.will let you respond to that in a second. I'm also interested in the
:33:24. > :33:26.notion of Jeremy Corbyn beating for Labour remainders, while Remainers
:33:27. > :33:30.in the main laying him for the Brexit. Which I think is very harsh.
:33:31. > :33:34.There is a lot more in the vote to leave the European Union than could
:33:35. > :33:38.have been solved by Jeremy Corbyn. I don't think it helps to blame him.
:33:39. > :33:43.He was a pretty lukewarm advocate for it but that's because he was not
:33:44. > :33:46.very good. Not because he had a particular bad day, he was as good
:33:47. > :33:50.as he can be, which is not very good at all. Scientists say of a bad
:33:51. > :33:55.theory, it's not even wrong. It's not even wrong to suggest that
:33:56. > :34:00.Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell 's art claiming the credit for George
:34:01. > :34:04.Osborne changing the rule, he has changed the rule because the country
:34:05. > :34:08.has had a massive economic shock and we're going to come out of the
:34:09. > :34:14.European Union. It's perfectly normal in politics to claim your
:34:15. > :34:20.opponent's shifts. Are we looking at something more different than the
:34:21. > :34:26.fundamental -- more fundamental than the squabbling and shifts which to
:34:27. > :34:30.defy your world? There is no one who represents the 48% who voted for
:34:31. > :34:34.Remain. We don't even have a mandate for a government to negotiate our
:34:35. > :34:45.Brexit. As we were hearing earlier, we don't know what kind of Brexit we
:34:46. > :34:52.want. And economically sensible EEA one or we just cut ourselves off and
:34:53. > :34:56.float in the Atlantic? No one has a mandate to make that decision. What
:34:57. > :35:00.would that realignment look like? At the moment, God only knows. There is
:35:01. > :35:05.this growth in the Liberal Democrats but with only eight MPs it's hard to
:35:06. > :35:10.see Tim Farron... Tim Farron has committed to a manifesto that would
:35:11. > :35:15.involve doing everything possible to get back into the EU. I feel very
:35:16. > :35:18.strongly represented by that but they only have eight MPs and it's
:35:19. > :35:23.hard to see that being enough to build a new centre party. It's
:35:24. > :35:28.possible that a break could come if Jeremy Corbyn digs in and if he is
:35:29. > :35:32.challenged and he wins again and the 172 Labour MPs in Parliament who
:35:33. > :35:35.have declared no confidence in him declare themselves a new party,
:35:36. > :35:39.that's not beyond the balance of possibility at the moment. We are
:35:40. > :35:44.closer perhaps than we've ever been before. I'm not sure it's a great
:35:45. > :35:55.solution or a great outcome but that is entirely feasible. Have we found
:35:56. > :35:56.something on which you can all agree, Paul Mason, that a
:35:57. > :35:59.fundamental realignment might well be on the horizon? I think centrist
:36:00. > :36:01.politics, which wants to rejoin the European Union after this,
:36:02. > :36:05.proactively rejoin the European Union, would have to be a new party.
:36:06. > :36:09.Neither the Conservatives nor Labour are going to do that, as parties.
:36:10. > :36:13.But I think there is a problem for centrist politics. Full
:36:14. > :36:18.they are going to be called upon to act in the national interests in a
:36:19. > :36:23.way they are not used to defining. Watch it happen right now is they
:36:24. > :36:27.should -- we should/ business tax and boost business investment. The
:36:28. > :36:31.more we do that, the people across the table from us at the Brexit
:36:32. > :36:35.negotiations are going to say hold on, this is unfair competition,
:36:36. > :36:40.please withdraw your tax cut in order to get back into the EEA. I
:36:41. > :36:47.favour going into the EEA and I also favour doing rapid tax cuts to boost
:36:48. > :36:51.investment. We need a political class used to doing this sort of
:36:52. > :36:54.thing but they are not used it, they are used to 40 plus years
:36:55. > :37:01.multilateralism that they triggered the breakdown of. Most importantly,
:37:02. > :37:05.there isn't anybody to make those decisions. We've had this
:37:06. > :37:08.unbelievably hectic week in British politics but actually we have no
:37:09. > :37:14.more clarity one week on about what on earth we're going to do next.
:37:15. > :37:17.It's that complete vacuum, whatever negotiating strategy we adopt, the
:37:18. > :37:20.truth is we have to start doing something because all across Europe
:37:21. > :37:26.and especially in Brussels, people are planning for how to negotiate
:37:27. > :37:30.this in their interests and not in ours. We have a cabinet team of
:37:31. > :37:35.three people thinking about this. It is a mandate to leave the European
:37:36. > :37:40.Union. How big a part do you think that will play in the Conservative
:37:41. > :37:44.candidate battle? Will they be putting forward rival visions of
:37:45. > :37:51.Brexit or just trying to win the party faithful in the normal way?
:37:52. > :37:55.The overwhelming favourite, Theresa May, voted Remain. I suppose nobly
:37:56. > :37:59.would have predicted that but no blonde would have predicted anything
:38:00. > :38:04.this time last week. It does appear she is moving ahead. As we said in
:38:05. > :38:07.the introduction, everyone is committed to an exit but I don't
:38:08. > :38:12.think any of them have the first idea what it means, yet. If they do
:38:13. > :38:20.put forward plans, they will be very meagre plans indeed. Paul Mason?
:38:21. > :38:25.Hello? I beg your pardon, Paul, I was expecting you to respond to what
:38:26. > :38:29.Philip said. Yes, look, what is amazing at the moment is the fact
:38:30. > :38:34.that all the political class cannot utter the words that we have uttered
:38:35. > :38:40.on this discussion, EEA, European economic area. It is the obvious
:38:41. > :38:44.solution, to apply for it and design a variation on free movement, ask
:38:45. > :38:49.for the emergency brake you can get and then go from there. You may not
:38:50. > :38:52.get it but it's logical to go for that. What frustrates me on all
:38:53. > :38:55.sides of Parliament is that people are not afraid to do that and that
:38:56. > :39:01.is because the party machinery is fractured. Many thanks indeed. That
:39:02. > :39:04.is almost all we have time for tonight. Just a bit of time left for
:39:05. > :39:08.me to jump on a rather wonderful belch
:39:09. > :39:10.-- a rather wonderful Welsh bandwagon.