:00:00. > :00:16.I think there is a touch of the Thatcher about her and she is a very
:00:17. > :00:17.human person as well. There are so many different aspects to her. She's
:00:18. > :00:20.not just a politician. Is the Andrea Leadsom
:00:21. > :00:22.bus gathering speed? We'll be debating the future
:00:23. > :00:31.direction of the party And leadership or lack
:00:32. > :00:35.thereof, part three, Dominic Chappelle, the man bought it
:00:36. > :00:48.for ?1, before the place went bust. Did I take a lot of money out? Yes,
:00:49. > :00:52.I did. Did the business fail because of the money I took out? No, it
:00:53. > :00:57.didn't. This was a dripping ocean compared to the money that was
:00:58. > :00:59.needed to turn around BHS. You say you took a big risk. It failed.
:01:00. > :01:06.Where's the comeback against you? The future of the country
:01:07. > :01:15.and its post-Brexit The selection of our
:01:16. > :01:19.new Prime Minister is under way. It's rather like a general election,
:01:20. > :01:22.in fact, except we We are spectators,
:01:23. > :01:25.except at the hustings, Our political editor,
:01:26. > :01:39.Nick Watt, has been For a quarter of a century,
:01:40. > :01:45.Conservatives have dreamt of a return to the golden era of Margaret
:01:46. > :01:53.Thatcher. Now, some are hoping they've stumbled on a modern version
:01:54. > :01:58.of the iron laidiment -- Iron Lady. In a packed and sweaty room in the
:01:59. > :02:06.heart of Westminster, Andrea Leadsom stormed into the leadership contest,
:02:07. > :02:09.immediately raising the prospect of a run-off between two women. Theresa
:02:10. > :02:13.May is currently the front runner, but she'll be alarmed by a
:02:14. > :02:18.Conservative home poll of its readers which suggest that Andrea
:02:19. > :02:23.Leadsom has just edged ahead of her. Together they have three quarters of
:02:24. > :02:27.the vote with others lagging behind. If Leadsom is to make the final
:02:28. > :02:32.round, she has to win the Brexit crown from two senior rivals. Do you
:02:33. > :02:35.think that the other Brexit candidates in this race, Michael
:02:36. > :02:39.Gove and Liam Fox, should stand aside? I don't think we should have
:02:40. > :02:42.any sort of coronation. I personally believe the person who takes forward
:02:43. > :02:48.our country needs to be someone who believes in the opportunities
:02:49. > :02:51.outside the EU. The electorate of Conservative MPs was once described
:02:52. > :02:55.as the most duplicitous in history. By tomorrow night we will know the
:02:56. > :03:00.lie of the land, when the results of the first ballot amongst MPs is
:03:01. > :03:03.announced. Tonight, Conservative MPs were in their element scheming in
:03:04. > :03:07.the corridors of the Palace of Westminster ahead of tomorrow's
:03:08. > :03:12.first ballot in the Tory leadership contest. Will Liam Fox, who's
:03:13. > :03:16.currently in last place, do what he did last time and out perform
:03:17. > :03:21.expectations? Will Stephen crab come from, well, nowhere to put his mark
:03:22. > :03:24.on the map? Will Michael Gove overcome perceptions that he's
:03:25. > :03:29.something a political assassin who finished off David Cameron and Boris
:03:30. > :03:33.Johnson? Or will history be made as the Conservative Party that
:03:34. > :03:38.delivered this country its first woman Prime Minister make history
:03:39. > :03:45.again with the first run-off in the country between two women Andrea
:03:46. > :03:47.Leadsom and treesa May? Ahead of tomorrow's ballot the five
:03:48. > :03:52.candidates had to appear before Tory MPs at a hustings tonight. As MPs we
:03:53. > :03:58.all are used to pitching to other people to vote for us. Less used to
:03:59. > :04:04.being pitched To vote for someone else. That's the situation in which
:04:05. > :04:09.we've found ourselves today. Theresa did incredibly well. She passed the
:04:10. > :04:13.blink test. When you look at someone when you're presenting, do they have
:04:14. > :04:16.the air of a Prime Minister? In this particular case, yes, she did.
:04:17. > :04:22.Andrea Leadsom is still something of a newcomer. She only entered
:04:23. > :04:24.Parliament in 2010. Critics say her inexperience was exposed at
:04:25. > :04:30.tonight's meeting where she failed to connect with MPs across the
:04:31. > :04:34.party. But one of her oldest friends in politics believes she has great
:04:35. > :04:38.potential. I think there is a touch of the Thatcher about her. So
:04:39. > :04:43.wanting to see it through, batting for Britain, having the balls in a
:04:44. > :04:49.man's world, those are things you could attribute to Mrs T that our
:04:50. > :04:54.girl's got this time. Tonight Andrea Leadsom received a fip ill when
:04:55. > :04:58.Boris Johnson endorsed his comrade. This former banker, who's not even a
:04:59. > :05:03.member of the Cabinet still has her work cut out to show her friends on
:05:04. > :05:05.the Thatcherite right that she has what it takes to step into the Iron
:05:06. > :05:08.Lady's shoes. And Nick is here now with the latest
:05:09. > :05:16.on the leadership contest. Where do you think they all stand
:05:17. > :05:22.tonight? There's a lot of scheming ahead of the first ballot tomorrow.
:05:23. > :05:27.Theresa May is the front runner. There's an interesting contest
:05:28. > :05:31.amongst the runners for the Brexit crown. Andrea Leadsom had a less
:05:32. > :05:35.than brilliant performance at the 1922 Committee this evening, which
:05:36. > :05:38.is giving great hope to Michael Gove's camp who believe he really
:05:39. > :05:42.has a big bat toll overcome the assumption that he's a bit of a
:05:43. > :05:46.political assassin. They're hoping there's a boost for him. They're
:05:47. > :05:52.going to Theresa May's supporters going, she's in the bag, lend me
:05:53. > :05:55.your votes. One person, there's a conspicuous absence from all the
:05:56. > :06:00.endorsements we've heard, one George Osborne. What is he doing? I spoke
:06:01. > :06:05.it a very good friend of George Osborne today who said he should do
:06:06. > :06:10.a William Hague, take a back seat for five years, then there will be a
:06:11. > :06:16.clamour for him to return. The message from the George Osborne camp
:06:17. > :06:21.is that there -- he is here to serve. He would like to serve under
:06:22. > :06:23.the next Prime Minister under Chancellor but no deals are being
:06:24. > :06:26.struck. Well, let's talk to two senior
:06:27. > :06:29.Conservatives who are representing Backing Michael Gove,
:06:30. > :06:32.is Ed Vaizey, Culture Minister. And supporting Theresa May
:06:33. > :06:34.is Sir Eric Pickles, the former Communities
:06:35. > :06:44.and Local Government Secretary. Good evening both. Ed, you were the
:06:45. > :06:50.most enthusiastic of Remainers, correct, and you've chosen the most
:06:51. > :06:55.enthusiastic of Brexiteers. Yes, Michael Gove probably has the most
:06:56. > :07:03.broad support among Remainers and Leavers. Roughly split 50/50.
:07:04. > :07:12.Theresa has a lot of Remainers and Andrea a lot of Leavers. Eric, what
:07:13. > :07:15.is Theresa May's Brexit policy? What is the minimum she will accept on
:07:16. > :07:20.free movement? What price is she willing to pay for that in leaving
:07:21. > :07:24.the single market? We're clear that Theresa and just about every other
:07:25. > :07:30.candidate has said no to free movement. I think given the nature
:07:31. > :07:33.of the referendum it would be a very foolish politician that suggested
:07:34. > :07:40.that free movement would be possible. What Theresa's managed to
:07:41. > :07:46.put together is a winning team - You're not answering the question.
:07:47. > :07:51.Emergency brake? Would that be enough? This is the debate over the
:07:52. > :07:56.future of our country. It's not unreasonable to ask, is an emergency
:07:57. > :08:05.brake enough? I think it's pretty clear that there will be no
:08:06. > :08:10.movement, no free movement. We won't have anything that would allow
:08:11. > :08:15.automatic movement. The Norway option entirely out, it cannot
:08:16. > :08:20.happen, no Norway, full membership of the single market, you've given
:08:21. > :08:23.up on that? It would seem that is the case. I'm not a spokesman for
:08:24. > :08:29.Theresa. I understand, but you're accepting that effectively. I went
:08:30. > :08:33.to the hustings. I went to both sets of hustings this evening in order to
:08:34. > :08:39.keep you informed. It's pretty clear all of them were saying no movement.
:08:40. > :08:43.And you, Ed, are happy, you're culture minister, one of our big
:08:44. > :08:46.service exporting industries, the culture industry is in absolutely no
:08:47. > :08:51.doubt where it would like us to be, which is in the single market, if
:08:52. > :08:54.not in the EU itself. You're happy supporting a candidate who is
:08:55. > :09:00.basically thinks we should be right out of the single market and be at
:09:01. > :09:03.arm's length. I'm glad you spotted the astonishing figures for the
:09:04. > :09:06.creative industries showing that they're growing three times faster.
:09:07. > :09:10.They are our most successful industries. That's one of the
:09:11. > :09:15.reasons I was Remain. We are all Brexiters now. They've been
:09:16. > :09:19.flourishing in the single market. The people have spoken. The
:09:20. > :09:24.referendum has been done. We need to do the best deal for our economy and
:09:25. > :09:29.successful industries. Will they flourish as much outside? I think
:09:30. > :09:34.there are great opportunities. I'm a great optimist. I'm looking to the
:09:35. > :09:37.trade deals we can do around the world. It would be ridiculous to
:09:38. > :09:41.have a referendum where more people have voted than any other time and
:09:42. > :09:45.now say, thanks very much, but we're going to do exactly the opposite. I
:09:46. > :09:49.would just say quickly, when I talk to businesses in the sectors I
:09:50. > :09:54.represent, they are all saying that there are a lot of huge strengths in
:09:55. > :09:58.the UK economy. We still want to invest. We work in markets which
:09:59. > :10:03.aren't single markets and we do all right. What is the evidence that
:10:04. > :10:06.ending free movement at the cost of leaving the single market is the
:10:07. > :10:12.most popular option with the electorate? I think it's pretty
:10:13. > :10:17.clear, immigration dominated the campaign. I had a completely
:10:18. > :10:21.different view. I would personally have liked a Norway kind of option.
:10:22. > :10:24.I would have preferred to stay in. But you've got to accept the will of
:10:25. > :10:31.the people. When we polled last week, we actually found Norway was
:10:32. > :10:37.ahead of other options. Why? Because they were 48% of the option were
:10:38. > :10:43.Re-mainers. You only need a few Remainers to say they quite happeny
:10:44. > :10:47.with Norway. You only need a few Brexiteers to say they're happy with
:10:48. > :10:52.Norway. I'm surprised you've given up on it so quickly. We've got to
:10:53. > :10:55.get a Prime Minister in place. That Prime Minister will determine our
:10:56. > :11:02.strategy in terms of negotiation. We're not in a tearing hurry to
:11:03. > :11:07.invoke article 50. We now know all the candidates are of the same mind
:11:08. > :11:10.this evening. We no longer have a candidate who wants to do it
:11:11. > :11:17.straight away. Once we've got a Prime Minister in place, then we'll
:11:18. > :11:22.at that time have a strategy. Then we can come on your wonderful
:11:23. > :11:26.programme and debate Norway, Switzerland, anything you want.
:11:27. > :11:31.Would it be reasonable for people looking in on the debate and we're
:11:32. > :11:34.not allowed in the hustings, so we haven't been party to that, to say
:11:35. > :11:38.actually, wouldn't it be nice if the country had some say in this. You've
:11:39. > :11:41.made assertions about what the country thinks. We don't know. We've
:11:42. > :11:46.had a poll, we don't know. Wouldn't it be right that the public should
:11:47. > :11:51.have some say, you're going to make irreversible decisions about the
:11:52. > :11:56.future of our country on the basis of - I mean the choice of Brexit
:11:57. > :12:02.option has not been put to an electoral test. No the clear message
:12:03. > :12:07.is that we want stability. Gove calls himself the change candidate.
:12:08. > :12:14.We had an election last year. He says he's a change candidate not
:12:15. > :12:18.continuity. You have to come in and help me. You're backing the change
:12:19. > :12:23.candidate and saying we don't need to put that to an election because
:12:24. > :12:27.we had an election last year for a different set of policies. We had an
:12:28. > :12:29.election last year. I think people want stability. We've been through
:12:30. > :12:33.the trauma of the referendum. We will have to negotiate a new
:12:34. > :12:38.relationship with the European Union. We don't need an election
:12:39. > :12:42.now. What we need is a good leader. If we want stability - We are making
:12:43. > :12:46.that case to MPs now. That will be put to the membership. Nick is at
:12:47. > :12:54.the door, listening to the hustings. The public are present. Forgive me,
:12:55. > :12:57.we fight an election to give this referendum and we would abide by the
:12:58. > :13:00.result. We're doing exactly what we said we'd do. We're not in a
:13:01. > :13:04.position in which the political situation is the one that was in the
:13:05. > :13:07.Tory manifesto. Can I just ask you, Sir Eric, Theresa May is the
:13:08. > :13:12.continuity candidate, for stability. I think you've made that point in
:13:13. > :13:15.her defence. She is the candidate who is basically saying, we might
:13:16. > :13:22.conceivably deport three million people. I went to the second
:13:23. > :13:27.hustings. I heard her say that she expected and hoped that EU migrants
:13:28. > :13:33.would remain and that there would be no desire to remove them. I don't
:13:34. > :13:38.seriously think that was ever on the possibility. What my concern has
:13:39. > :13:42.always been - Why didn't she clarify that. She raised it. She has
:13:43. > :13:48.clarified it. When did she do that. I saw her on Peston, she said this
:13:49. > :13:52.is all part of negotiation. She clarified it in private to the Tory
:13:53. > :13:58.party, you mean? Where did she clarify it? She clarified it at the
:13:59. > :14:04.first hustings. She clarified it at a private hustings? I don't see why
:14:05. > :14:08.you should be so shocked about that. I never thought - it's never been a
:14:09. > :14:13.serious possibility. She raised it. Is there any chance I could speak?
:14:14. > :14:17.Go ahead. I would like a clear statement from the Government. Not
:14:18. > :14:20.because I think there's any possibility of removing them. My
:14:21. > :14:27.concern is more complicated than that. It's a worry that all these
:14:28. > :14:31.top surgeons, top consultants, all these top engineers who could earn
:14:32. > :14:36.their living anywhere in the world might be concerned and might leave
:14:37. > :14:39.the country. Can you tell us what the clarification was, is it
:14:40. > :14:44.possible, conceivable that say, Polish people who arrived here three
:14:45. > :14:47.years ago will be sent home? I don't think that's even vaguely possible.
:14:48. > :14:52.I don't think you think that's vaguely possible. And that's her or
:14:53. > :14:59.you speaking on that point? She said that she hoped and was sure that EU
:15:00. > :15:04.residents will be able to stay within the United Kingdom. I think
:15:05. > :15:10.that is absolutely right. Different to what she said. No, it's not
:15:11. > :15:14.different. Thank you both very much. Nick is still here. Tory party,
:15:15. > :15:20.interesting debates going on there, obviously. Labour, meeting of the
:15:21. > :15:24.Parliamentary Labour party this evening a few doors down from the
:15:25. > :15:27.Tory hustings Yes an emotional meeting. Tom Watson said I saw
:15:28. > :15:31.Jeremy Corbyn this morning and I said you've lost the confidence of
:15:32. > :15:35.plp, you should go. He said he's going to meet trade union leaders
:15:36. > :15:39.tomorrow to try and secure a negotiated settlement. If there is
:15:40. > :15:43.no way out, then he's been clear there will probably be within days,
:15:44. > :15:50.a challenge, possibly from Angela eagle or Owen Smith.
:15:51. > :15:58.In the trade unions, we will have to see what they say. But the biggest,
:15:59. > :16:02.most charged moment came from Neil Kinnock, where he said to Jeremy
:16:03. > :16:05.Corbyn, you are not from the tradition of the labour movement.
:16:06. > :16:08.Which is about parliamentary democracy, getting elected to
:16:09. > :16:13.Parliament, forming a government and improving the lives of the working
:16:14. > :16:17.people. You appear to be committed to the extraparliamentary route
:16:18. > :16:22.because you have lost the confidence of Parliament and you are going onto
:16:23. > :16:25.the streets which is not the tradition, says Neil Kinnock.
:16:26. > :16:27.Just when you thought you didn't have enough of leadership contests,
:16:28. > :16:29.along comes another one with Nigel Farage
:16:30. > :16:32.Ignore the suggestion that he is gunning for job
:16:33. > :16:36.He wanted his life back, he said, having seen the main goal
:16:37. > :16:43.Here are three things the party needs to decide.
:16:44. > :16:51.Just one you, there is some flash photography in this. -- just to warn
:16:52. > :16:56.you. Decision one, what kind of party is Ukip when it comes to
:16:57. > :17:00.issues other than the EU? Most parties are messy coalitions of
:17:01. > :17:04.different factions and that is as true of Ukip as it is for there
:17:05. > :17:08.established rivals. One wing is more conservative than the Conservatives.
:17:09. > :17:13.Tough on welfare and crime, it believes in a small state, lower
:17:14. > :17:17.taxes and less borrowing. By cutting taxes by ?18 billion, I think there
:17:18. > :17:22.is a strong argument that says that will lead to dynamic growth within
:17:23. > :17:26.the economy. We saw examples of this. The natural goal of
:17:27. > :17:30.Conservative Ukip is the taking of Tory seats. But that may be harder
:17:31. > :17:35.with the Tory Party taking Britain out of the EU. But there is another
:17:36. > :17:39.Ukip as well, the blue-collar champion, sometimes called red Ukip,
:17:40. > :17:43.the party that wants to take seats from Labour. It puts more emphasis
:17:44. > :17:46.on beating up the rich and getting companies to pay their share of
:17:47. > :17:52.taxes. It wants to preserve the welfare state. It is the Ukip of
:17:53. > :17:56.Patrick Coughlin, the former economic spokesman. The big
:17:57. > :18:04.multinationals are excessively taking advantage of aggressive tax
:18:05. > :18:08.avoidance schemes. Some are and some are not. I do not want this to be
:18:09. > :18:14.purely a left-wing point. Decision two for Ukip, what kind of tone
:18:15. > :18:18.should adopt? The party is united on Google scepticism, Patrick is and a
:18:19. > :18:22.desire to control immigration but not united in the way it talks about
:18:23. > :18:27.immigration in particular. Will a new leader try to ramp up the
:18:28. > :18:33.rhetoric or try to appear more conciliatory? There are those who
:18:34. > :18:37.are basically four Rice, who would continue the basic message that it
:18:38. > :18:46.has at the moment, which is make sure that the government continues
:18:47. > :18:49.in the way it has been going, performing Westminster and ensuring
:18:50. > :18:54.that Brexit is delivered 100%. But there are others who, irrespective
:18:55. > :18:57.of what happens in terms of Britain's relationship with Europe,
:18:58. > :19:02.would want to push Ukip Darren in more strident line of social and
:19:03. > :19:08.cultural issues, campaigning more exclusively against Islam and
:19:09. > :19:13.immigration. And a third decision, how to make Ukip a more professional
:19:14. > :19:18.operation. More members, more backing, more seats, doing all of
:19:19. > :19:22.that with a Nigel Farage sized hole in the middle. There is a remarkable
:19:23. > :19:28.contradiction during the referendum campaign. On the one hand, Ukip
:19:29. > :19:34.delivers its lifelong goal of Brexit, but on the other hand,
:19:35. > :19:40.throughout that campaign the party probably only attracted around 1000
:19:41. > :19:45.new members. On the surface, but behind the sound bites, behind the
:19:46. > :19:51.national discussion and debates, I think something with in the Ukip is
:19:52. > :19:52.not quite clicked. Matthew Goodwin who spent several years studying
:19:53. > :19:53.Ukip as an academic. I'm joined now in the studio
:19:54. > :20:00.by Peter Whittle, London Assembly member and Ukip's candidate
:20:01. > :20:02.for London mayor earlier this year, and Raheem Kassam, chief
:20:03. > :20:04.advisor to Nigel Farage We're also joined from
:20:05. > :20:07.the Strasbourg parliament by Margot Parker, Ukip MEP
:20:08. > :20:16.for the East Midlands. Thank you very much indeed. A quick
:20:17. > :20:22.question, are any of you thinking of standing? Argue a candidate? Maybe.
:20:23. > :20:27.We will see. We are all thinking about it. The events of the day are
:20:28. > :20:33.sinking in. There is a lot of talent in Ukip now and I think there is a
:20:34. > :20:36.lot of opportunity. And Margo, who are you supporting if you are not a
:20:37. > :20:41.candidate? We are all candidates and we are supporting all of the talent
:20:42. > :20:49.that Ukip has two offer. And we have a lot of talent. Let's ask the
:20:50. > :20:54.question of tone. Rahim, do you think the tone should reach out to a
:20:55. > :20:58.broader swathe of the population? Review a supporter of the breaking
:20:59. > :21:03.point poster? I think the breaking point poster looked clumsy but I
:21:04. > :21:09.think how it was executed was very bad. But actually the message was
:21:10. > :21:12.fine. That was a real picture from southern Europe from 2015. Nobody
:21:13. > :21:17.complained when it was on the front page of the Independent. The message
:21:18. > :21:22.was mixed up. It did not make clear what it was talking about and that
:21:23. > :21:29.was the failure of the European Union to manage migration. What
:21:30. > :21:30.coming onto in terms of tone is execution and professionalism,
:21:31. > :21:38.something I spoke about last year when I left my position. Margo, you
:21:39. > :21:45.have undoubtedly seen that poster. Yes. I reiterate what Rahim has
:21:46. > :21:49.said, it had been there and perhaps it was a little clumsily executed,
:21:50. > :21:54.but the message was there. And you did not think there was too much
:21:55. > :21:59.hate in it? You did not think, a lot of people have been very critical,
:22:00. > :22:04.haven't they? They have. I would not use the word hate. A lot of people
:22:05. > :22:08.do but it is not really appropriate. It was not right. People said that
:22:09. > :22:12.they were refugees but of course you could not possibly know whether they
:22:13. > :22:16.were or they were not. It is just a picture that was out in the media.
:22:17. > :22:22.It was selected and the message, as Rahim has said, perhaps it did not
:22:23. > :22:25.get across sensitively enough. Peter, were you happy with the
:22:26. > :22:31.poster? Is the party behind that Tony? I did not have a problem with
:22:32. > :22:35.it. I think when you went outside the Westminster bubble, and a lot of
:22:36. > :22:41.people knew what the poster was saying, I don't think that it was as
:22:42. > :22:48.badly taken as has been discussed. But I think the main point is that
:22:49. > :22:50.tone or no tone, a lot of people, particularly in the Westminster
:22:51. > :22:53.bubble, think that talking about immigration at all is the wrong
:22:54. > :23:00.tone. And that is something we should never stop doing. What about
:23:01. > :23:06.Nigel Farage's performance and the new European Parliament last week.
:23:07. > :23:09.Magnificent. You have to have context of buying this. If you have
:23:10. > :23:13.been inside the chamber and watched proceedings, you know that they are
:23:14. > :23:17.always giving it to each other. There are all these robust exchanges
:23:18. > :23:21.and it is actually pretty funny. And they go out smoking Andrew King with
:23:22. > :23:26.each other after it. And Nigel Farage does the same? They all love
:23:27. > :23:31.him? They get along. Have you ever had a real job? I have worked in
:23:32. > :23:38.three different retail jobs, I have worked in a buyer. These are casual
:23:39. > :23:42.jobs. Yes, but I was working in them full-time. I worked in a call
:23:43. > :23:48.centre. I know what a real job is. Is this a leadership bid? Let's talk
:23:49. > :23:52.about the left and right. Peter Whittle, if you were running the
:23:53. > :23:58.party, would you try to take it more towards appealing to Labour voters,
:23:59. > :24:04.of whom there are very many, or would you say, look, it is former
:24:05. > :24:09.Tories who want a bit more Tory? All the elections I have stood in,
:24:10. > :24:14.whether it was for the Will.i.am or the election, anecdotally the people
:24:15. > :24:18.who are coming across to Ukip in the greatest numbers were Labour,
:24:19. > :24:25.without question. I think that this is the great opportunity for Ukip
:24:26. > :24:30.going forward. No question about it. We all know the referendum campaign.
:24:31. > :24:34.It was basically in the north that the referendum was won. People were
:24:35. > :24:39.largely forgotten, and I say that as a Londoner, by people down here. And
:24:40. > :24:47.that is where our support and the growth in our support lies. Those
:24:48. > :24:51.people are people who are patriotic, and they believe also in the NHS and
:24:52. > :24:55.they have a great sense of social justice. Marco do you agree with
:24:56. > :25:00.that? That is where you have to look for votes and if that means giving
:25:01. > :25:07.up some of the more Tory talk about smaller governments and big tax
:25:08. > :25:14.cuts, so be it? -- Margot. I think Peter is absolutely right. When we
:25:15. > :25:21.toured in the battle bus, we really went to the North of England and we
:25:22. > :25:25.had a tremendous reception there. We worked cross-party, but we had a
:25:26. > :25:30.great response from Labour voters. They did seriously connect with us.
:25:31. > :25:34.This has been going on for years, it is not a new thing. We listened to
:25:35. > :25:38.them and we knew that they were being neglected because they told us
:25:39. > :25:42.about their problems. We actually listened. Of course we have a more
:25:43. > :25:46.sensitive manifesto and we want to do things that actually help people.
:25:47. > :25:50.It is not just words, we actually believe it and we think there is a
:25:51. > :25:53.big opening here to be able to move forward and genuinely help people
:25:54. > :26:01.because if we do not, the country needs this help. But does the party
:26:02. > :26:06.needs to change its message in order to hone in on those voters, to
:26:07. > :26:13.refine its appeal? Well, we are moving on. The party has expanded
:26:14. > :26:16.and we certainly need to put structure there are so that we can
:26:17. > :26:21.cope with the membership that we have got. Of course loads of people
:26:22. > :26:27.are calling us all sorts of times of the day. My office is constantly
:26:28. > :26:32.being called, with people asking what I can do. We are being called
:26:33. > :26:36.in, even as MEPs, would you believe, to help with some of the things
:26:37. > :26:39.going on in the United Kingdom. And being a member of the EU, that does
:26:40. > :26:48.not necessarily involve the practical issues. Can I add to what
:26:49. > :26:52.Marco is saying, that the people who are active in Ukip, it is often hard
:26:53. > :26:56.to tell whether they are former Labour or former Tory. -- Margot it
:26:57. > :27:01.has purely come from the idea that this is something with the shires. I
:27:02. > :27:03.think if we were having this conversation in 2010, maybe. But not
:27:04. > :27:07.any more. We need to leave it there. Events of recent days have
:27:08. > :27:10.overshadowed some of the other stories that had been
:27:11. > :27:11.dominating the news. You might remember that
:27:12. > :27:13.before the referendum, capitalism was in crisis,
:27:14. > :27:15.with cases like the collapse of BHS bringing the whole
:27:16. > :27:17.system into disrepute. You won't be surprised to hear
:27:18. > :27:24.that the problem of the BHS pension The investigations into what went
:27:25. > :27:29.wrong at BHS are not complete. One character at the centre of
:27:30. > :27:31.the collapse is Dominic Chappelle, who bought BHS for ?1,
:27:32. > :27:35.was accused not only of being clueless in running
:27:36. > :27:38.the company but also of taking money BBC business correspondent,
:27:39. > :27:52.Adam Parsons went to What do you think of being described
:27:53. > :27:57.as bankrupt? What did you learn from those two processors. You learn a
:27:58. > :28:03.lot. It wipes you out financially and morally, and it is a very bitter
:28:04. > :28:06.pill to swallow. As an entrepreneur, you take financial risks sometimes.
:28:07. > :28:11.Sometimes it works and sometimes it does not. You need to look at people
:28:12. > :28:14.like Donald Trump, who have put a number of companies through
:28:15. > :28:18.bankruptcy. There are mechanisms that make people bankrupt very
:28:19. > :28:23.quickly and in other countries, there are ways through that. Ways
:28:24. > :28:29.where you can avoid the stigma that is attached to it. But here, if you
:28:30. > :28:32.owe money and people call it in, you are wiped out. I am one of many
:28:33. > :28:38.thousands in this country who have been made bankrupt. And that is a
:28:39. > :28:41.fact of life. I have not done anything wrong apart from owing
:28:42. > :28:46.money. I have not stole the money from the company or misused the
:28:47. > :28:49.company administration for my own games, it is purely that when things
:28:50. > :28:56.go wrong, they go wrong and if you cannot get out of it, you cannot get
:28:57. > :29:00.out of it. How have you made money? A number of ways. My family and I
:29:01. > :29:04.have always dealt heavily in the Middle East, we have always had big
:29:05. > :29:10.parts in Libya. We have had an office over there since the 70s.
:29:11. > :29:16.During that time, working in Libya, did you meet the Gaddafis? I did, on
:29:17. > :29:23.a number of occasions. And what was that like? It was difficult. I met
:29:24. > :29:28.him once and I met one of his sons once. And how would you compare with
:29:29. > :29:37.dealing with the Gaddafi family and dealing with Sir Philip Green? It
:29:38. > :29:40.was a difficult comparison, but Gaddafi was seemingly nuts. He was
:29:41. > :29:43.completely insane in his latter years and negotiating with him was
:29:44. > :29:52.slightly easier than it was with Philip. This germ of an idea that is
:29:53. > :29:56.in your head about buying BHS, what did you know about PHS at that time?
:29:57. > :30:02.What drew you to it? Was at the fact that it was a well-known retailer or
:30:03. > :30:06.was this an investment opportunity? I actually knew nothing at all about
:30:07. > :30:13.PHS apart from the High Street retail store. You had never been
:30:14. > :30:17.into a PHS? A Parliamentary enquiry into PHS has seen Mr Chappelle
:30:18. > :30:22.derided by his one-time management colleagues. A Premier League liar, a
:30:23. > :30:26.Sunday pub league retailer. He called to a Premier League liar and
:30:27. > :30:30.a Sunday pub league retailer. I am not a retailer and I have never said
:30:31. > :30:35.I was. I have always said that I know nothing about retail. You guys,
:30:36. > :30:40.the people we are backing, the people we are putting money behind,
:30:41. > :30:47.you tell us that you can turn this business around, with retail alone,
:30:48. > :30:51.you have let us down on that side. The bit about me being a liar, where
:30:52. > :30:54.does he get that from? He said because we did not deliver the money
:30:55. > :30:59.we promise to deliver. We delivered the money every time they needed it.
:31:00. > :31:03.But when the dam starts bursting and they ask you for more and more
:31:04. > :31:04.money, faster and faster, to keep up with losses, it becomes very
:31:05. > :31:14.difficult. I was particularly annoyed with
:31:15. > :31:17.Darren. Once again, he had countermanneded another board
:31:18. > :31:21.decision. This was in very dire times. I had a very, very strong and
:31:22. > :31:25.Frank conversation with Darren who was running the company for the
:31:26. > :31:29.shareholders of the company. I am the shareholder with my two
:31:30. > :31:33.co-shareholders. I did not use the word "kill". I said I would come and
:31:34. > :31:39.sort him out. I was going to sack him. You know Sir Philip green
:31:40. > :31:43.maintains that if he had subordinated his game, all it would
:31:44. > :31:50.have done is put off an inevitable death. No the inevitable death of
:31:51. > :31:57.that company was Philip not sorting out the pension and Arcadia. Lessons
:31:58. > :32:01.learned? A lot of lessons learned. I have the devil on my back of 11,000
:32:02. > :32:07.people out of work, which plays on me deeply. I unreservedly apologise
:32:08. > :32:10.for what happened. There are 11,000 people who should not have been
:32:11. > :32:13.unemployed now. We tried our hardest to save that business, even to the
:32:14. > :32:17.11th hour when it was looking very bad. When Philip forced the
:32:18. > :32:20.administration on us. We tried to do a deal with Mike Ashley. Do you
:32:21. > :32:25.regret the fact that people think you are a chancer? Chancer, yeah we
:32:26. > :32:30.took a chance with BHS. We were the only people to give it a go. We were
:32:31. > :32:33.the only people out of all the people that know Philip, out of all
:32:34. > :32:39.the retailers prepared to work hard to do that. If I'm a chancer for
:32:40. > :32:44.that, yes, I am. And the final thought, which is you are an
:32:45. > :32:48.entrepreneur, a capitalist, wouldn't it have sent out all the right
:32:49. > :32:53.signals for you to have said look, I own this business, want to build the
:32:54. > :32:58.value of my stake, but I don't need to take this vast salary out of it.
:32:59. > :33:05.You earned more in your stewardship that some people have earned in a
:33:06. > :33:09.lifetime of working with BHS? Yes, but it is a risk-reward. We live in
:33:10. > :33:14.a risk society. That's the way companies are built and fail. Did I
:33:15. > :33:18.take a lot of money out? Yes, I did. But did the business fail because of
:33:19. > :33:22.the money I took out? No, it didn't. This was a drip in the ocean
:33:23. > :33:27.compared to the money needed to turn around BHS. You say you took a big
:33:28. > :33:30.risk - it failed. Where's the comeback against you? You seem to
:33:31. > :33:34.have walked away a lot wealthier than you started it. Some will say
:33:35. > :33:39.risk-reward, you haven't had any risk. No, look. Here we are now with
:33:40. > :33:43.the failure of the company two months ago. I still have
:33:44. > :33:46.responsibilities as director to the company. We are going through a
:33:47. > :33:50.number of investigations, Parliamentary investigation, the
:33:51. > :33:54.pension investigation etc. These cost tens of thousands of pounds
:33:55. > :34:00.worth of legal bills again, the lawyers are making huge amounts of
:34:01. > :34:06.money out of this pre, in the middle and post BHS. Where's the come back
:34:07. > :34:10.against you? You seem to have walked away wealthier than you start today.
:34:11. > :34:14.Some will say, risk-reward, you haven't had any risk. Here we are
:34:15. > :34:17.now with the failure of the company two months ago. I have
:34:18. > :34:21.responsibilities as director to the company. We going through a number
:34:22. > :34:23.of investigations, Parliamentary investigation, the pension
:34:24. > :34:27.investigation, etc. These cost tens of thousands of pounds worth of
:34:28. > :34:29.legal bills again, the lawyers are making huge amounts of money out of
:34:30. > :34:37.it. Now, what is business
:34:38. > :34:39.thinking about Brexit? There is clear uncertainty
:34:40. > :34:42.about the place of this country Our business editor,
:34:43. > :34:51.Helen Thomas, is with me. Helen, latest being nomic
:34:52. > :34:56.indicators, what are they telling us? We have figures that suggest
:34:57. > :35:01.that business confidence has really cratered since the referendum. Now
:35:02. > :35:05.this is just a first guide to business' reaction, if they're less
:35:06. > :35:09.confident, they're less likely to invest and hire and so on. YouGov
:35:10. > :35:12.and the centre for economics and business research spoke to companies
:35:13. > :35:17.the week before the referendum. They spoke to them again last week. We
:35:18. > :35:20.have a first look at their data. You can see here, the share of
:35:21. > :35:24.businesses saying they were optimistic about the UK economy over
:35:25. > :35:29.the next year dropped very slightly. But what they saw was a big jump in
:35:30. > :35:33.the share of companies saying that they were pessimistic about the
:35:34. > :35:40.outlook. It went from 25% to 49%. Which is a huge move for this type
:35:41. > :35:46.of indicator. I spoke to one of the economists about how he interpreted
:35:47. > :35:50.that jump. Businesses are clearly spooked bit referendum result.
:35:51. > :35:55.They're reined in their intentions for capital spending. They've reined
:35:56. > :35:59.in their expectations for export and domestic sales growth. Business
:36:00. > :36:02.confidence is a leading indicator for where the economy is heading.
:36:03. > :36:07.What it suggests is that the economy is in for a significant slowdown
:36:08. > :36:12.over the next three to six months. Not great. Are there any other
:36:13. > :36:17.worrying signs? There is one. There was late news that falls into the
:36:18. > :36:21.camp of worrying. Standard Life has suspended redemptions on one of its
:36:22. > :36:25.big real estate funds, that fund invests in commercial property. What
:36:26. > :36:30.that means is that so many investors have basically asked to take their
:36:31. > :36:33.money out since the Brexit vote that Standard Life is concerned about
:36:34. > :36:38.having the funds on hand to meet those requests. Why is that
:36:39. > :36:43.important? The first thing is that this rush of investors wanting their
:36:44. > :36:46.money out reflects concerns about falling property values and why
:36:47. > :36:52.might values fall? They fall when demand falls. For example, Central
:36:53. > :36:56.London offices there may be less demand for space if big companies
:36:57. > :37:00.move people abroad. The second reason this captures the attention
:37:01. > :37:07.is that this is an echo of 2008. In the midst of the financial crisis,
:37:08. > :37:13.this fund and funds like this were forced to halt redemptions. It's the
:37:14. > :37:17.kind of financial dislocation that makes investors very, very uneasy.
:37:18. > :37:21.People don't like not being able to get their money back when they want
:37:22. > :37:22.it. We'll keep an eye on that, thank you very much.
:37:23. > :37:25.One international industry that has flourished in England in recent
:37:26. > :37:30.The courts in London have provided a divorce jurisdiction of choice
:37:31. > :37:33.to wealthy spouses the world over, if they have some connection here.
:37:34. > :37:35.So if divorce is our thing, what should Britain expect over
:37:36. > :37:39.the coming years of tortuous negotiation?
:37:40. > :37:41.We asked one of the top divorce lawyers, Ayesha Vardag,
:37:42. > :37:45.she's the one labelled by the tabloids as the diva
:37:46. > :37:51.of divorce, to offer her advice on how things tend to play out.
:37:52. > :37:59.# You'll take away the biggest part of me #
:38:00. > :38:01.Britain will be leaving the European Union.
:38:02. > :38:08.Europe is ready to start the divorce process even today.
:38:09. > :38:15.Do come in, have a seat, please don't be concerned.
:38:16. > :38:24.This is a familiar story for anyone working in family law.
:38:25. > :38:29.As the years go by, a troubled relationship becomes
:38:30. > :38:36.One party feels controlled by the other.
:38:37. > :38:39.It may be too many rules about who you can and can't see.
:38:40. > :38:43.Maybe it's regulations about the size and shape of your banana.
:38:44. > :38:51.Maybe they're fobbed off with, "We can talk about this tomorrow."
:38:52. > :38:55.Maybe they're increasingly embarrassed by their partner.
:38:56. > :39:03.# I'll be a fool for your loving no more.#
:39:04. > :39:06.One side may try and save the union by asking for marriage counselling.
:39:07. > :39:10.Agreements are thrashed out on emergency breaks
:39:11. > :39:13.and special statuses, all to prove that
:39:14. > :39:22.But then comes the point when nothing is enough,
:39:23. > :39:25.the marriage is doomed and ultimatuma and tantrums
:39:26. > :39:32.TRANSLATION: I will not accept we have to be endlessly blackmailed
:39:33. > :39:37.They cannot mess around with all of Europe for months on end.
:39:38. > :39:40.And so it comes, the crisis, something snaps.
:39:41. > :39:43.Maybe it's a text messages from an adultress lover.
:39:44. > :39:47.Maybe it's an economic collapse which threatens to
:39:48. > :39:54.In a fit of decisiveness, one party packs their bags
:39:55. > :39:57.and leaves straight into the arms of their lawyer,
:39:58. > :40:03.The reason you're so upset, the reason you're so angry has been
:40:04. > :40:07.perfectly clear from all the angry exchanges this morning -
:40:08. > :40:14.you, as a political project, are in denial.
:40:15. > :40:17.And then begins the lengthy legal process.
:40:18. > :40:20.No prenup here, just a simple divorce clause, article 50,
:40:21. > :40:31.Instead of directing your energy into all those new exciting
:40:32. > :40:35.hobbies you dreamed of, you're consumed with your case.
:40:36. > :40:38.Will you still have access to the children?
:40:39. > :40:44.You worry that you'll end up paying vast amounts of alimony.
:40:45. > :40:46.TRANSLATION: Anyone who wants to leave this family can't expect
:40:47. > :40:50.to lose their responsibilities whilst keeping all their privileges.
:40:51. > :40:54.That you'll be stuck on the outside, like an EEA member, paying out huge
:40:55. > :40:57.amounts to someone who no longer cares about you and still does
:40:58. > :41:06.TRANSLATION: They made their choice and now we see the consequences.
:41:07. > :41:10.The anxieties Britain faces now will be recognised by any divorcee.
:41:11. > :41:14.Suddenly your financial security evaporates.
:41:15. > :41:17.The person you shared your life with suddenly becomes a devious
:41:18. > :41:21.and steely negotiator who wants to take you to the cleaners.
:41:22. > :41:25.And what about all those new relationships and supportive
:41:26. > :41:32.Suddenly, they're nowhere to be found.
:41:33. > :41:35.Some of them are even flirting with your ex.
:41:36. > :41:42.Please, I beg you, do not let Scotland down now.
:41:43. > :41:47.When it comes to party invitations, you may find yourself
:41:48. > :41:54.A 40-year relationship cloven in two.
:41:55. > :41:57.The burst of confidence that spurred you to make your decision may feel
:41:58. > :42:01.like a bit of a wobble when the air clears.
:42:02. > :42:05.You fought for Brexit, aren't you responsible for implementing it?
:42:06. > :42:12.The world outside a relationship can feel like a very scary place.
:42:13. > :42:15.But as a divorce lawyer, I see the positive outcomes.
:42:16. > :42:19.TRANSLATION: We are sad about the way the vote turned out,
:42:20. > :42:23.but that's no reason to be especially nasty in negotiations.
:42:24. > :42:30.They find exotic new partners across the globe.
:42:31. > :42:34.They come out leaner and more confident, ready to take
:42:35. > :42:55.If there's a lesson from divorce, it's that anything is possible,
:42:56. > :43:14.it usually comes down to money and the lawyers always win.
:43:15. > :43:23.A couple of the papers. The Times leading on Boris backs Leadsom in
:43:24. > :43:28.race for Tory leadership. Number Ten hopeful faces questions over tax
:43:29. > :43:34.affairs. That's Leadsom not Boris. And the Sun is going on the
:43:35. > :43:37.resignation of Chris Evans from Top Gear. The end for flop Chris, gone
:43:38. > :43:41.after ratings plunge to record low. But if the last ten days have
:43:42. > :43:43.been hard, if you've quit or lost your job,
:43:44. > :43:46.if you've seen your colleagues turn on you, been publicly humiliated,
:43:47. > :43:49.seen your hopes turn to dust, well, then this one is just
:43:50. > :44:04.for you - Bill Pulman's legendary We can't be consumed by our petty
:44:05. > :44:12.differences any more. We ill be united in our common interests,
:44:13. > :44:17.perhaps it's fate that today is the fourth of July and you will once
:44:18. > :44:24.again be fighter for our freedom -- fighting for our freedom. Not from
:44:25. > :44:31.tyranny, oppression or persecution, but from annihilation. We're
:44:32. > :44:38.fighting for our right to live, to exist. And should we win the day,
:44:39. > :44:44.the 4th of July will no longer be known as an American holiday. But as
:44:45. > :44:50.the day when the world declared in one voice - "We will not go quietly
:44:51. > :44:58.into the night. We will not vanish without a fight. We're going to live
:44:59. > :45:02.on. We're going to survive. Today we celebrate our Independence Day.
:45:03. > :45:27.CHEERING Hello there. The heavy rain across
:45:28. > :45:30.southern Scotland and northern England tonight will be nothing more
:45:31. > :45:32.than patchy rain across eastern England into the morning. Quite a
:45:33. > :45:34.breeze that. Clears away