:00:00. > :00:08.There were five candidates this morning - one is Theresa May,
:00:09. > :00:20.I'll be lending my whole hearted support to Theresa May,
:00:21. > :00:23.who is overwhelmingly in the best position to be the next
:00:24. > :00:25.Prime Minister and the leader of the Conservative Party.
:00:26. > :00:28.I've decided to give my support to Theresa May.
:00:29. > :00:32.I intend to work closely with her, to campaign for her,
:00:33. > :00:36.and I am sure she'll be a very fine Prime Minister of this country.
:00:37. > :00:39.There is still a battle of the Brexiteers for second place,
:00:40. > :00:43.and a chance to appeal to Tory party members.
:00:44. > :00:48.But is it futile, given Theresa May's lead?
:00:49. > :00:58.Since the referendum result, of the 12 projects that we have
:00:59. > :01:00.people working on, for submission for an end of August deadlines,
:01:01. > :01:06.on four of those projects researchers in other European
:01:07. > :01:09.countries have said they no longer feel the E-UK should be a partner,
:01:10. > :01:12.because they don't have confidence in what the future is going to hold.
:01:13. > :01:16.In a Baghdad suburb they've counted 175 dead from an ISIS car bomb.
:01:17. > :01:22.In Westminster, they're about to publish the Chilcot report.
:01:23. > :01:24.Will this report bring security back?
:01:25. > :01:27.Or bring back someone who died from a car bomb?
:01:28. > :01:30.Or a widow who lost her husband, or lost her kids?
:01:31. > :01:46.Hello, it's too early to tell you who our new Prime Minister is,
:01:47. > :01:50.but we did learn today that it is not going to be Liam Fox.
:01:51. > :01:53.He was eliminated in the first round of the leadership election.
:01:54. > :01:55.Stephen Crabb then withdrew, so it won't be him.
:01:56. > :01:57.But both of them gave their backing to Theresa May,
:01:58. > :02:00.who was already the runaway leader, with half of Tory MPs backing her.
:02:01. > :02:03.But at this stage, the race for second place is still open.
:02:04. > :02:06.The battle of the Brexiteers, to be Theresa May's rival,
:02:07. > :02:08.is between Andrea Leadsom and Michael Gove.
:02:09. > :02:10.It's more exciting than Wimbledon, and there's now one
:02:11. > :02:12.round on Thursday, before it goes to an audience vote.
:02:13. > :02:21.Our political editor Nick Watt is with me.
:02:22. > :02:32.Talks takes through the drama? As you were saying a decisive win for
:02:33. > :02:38.Theresa May there, there are 16 a 5 votes for -- 165 votes for her, but
:02:39. > :02:41.led not a member of the Cabinet, the Brexiteer 66 higher than expected,
:02:42. > :02:46.that is a serious performance, but let us not forget Michael Gove, he
:02:47. > :02:52.got 48 vote, and that was higher than expected. The work and pension
:02:53. > :02:56.secretary Stephen Crabb did OK, 34 votes and in final fifth place there
:02:57. > :02:59.is Liam Fox on 16 votes and he came last, so sorry Liam, you are out of
:03:00. > :03:02.the contest. But shortly after he was formally
:03:03. > :03:06.eliminated Stephen Crabb as you said he was still in the contest, he
:03:07. > :03:10.decided to go and he endorsed Theresa May, but the really
:03:11. > :03:14.significant endorsement for Theresa May was Liam Fox, a prominent
:03:15. > :03:18.Brexiteer and he said he would travel the country with her, which
:03:19. > :03:22.will help her because she could be up against one of those two
:03:23. > :03:26.Brexiteers. You look at the figures and the endorsement of MP, and I
:03:27. > :03:31.know they don't choos choose, it has to be Theresa May? On paper Theresa
:03:32. > :03:35.May is untouchable but she is nervous about Andrea Leadsom. I
:03:36. > :03:40.talked to one of her supporters and this person said to me, look Andrea
:03:41. > :03:44.Leadsom is fresh, she was in the television debate, she maybe popular
:03:45. > :03:47.with the membership and this cabinet minister said maybe Theresa May will
:03:48. > :03:51.do so well on Thursday, that perhaps the others will stand down, but that
:03:52. > :03:54.is not the official Theresa May position, the official Theresa May
:03:55. > :03:57.position is I want this contest to go the full course, I want to face
:03:58. > :04:01.the country because I want a proper mandate. What is going to happen
:04:02. > :04:06.now? What happens on Thursday? What will happen is Theresa May will
:04:07. > :04:10.shore up her sup for, but there is Machiavellian thinking, perhaps
:04:11. > :04:15.because she is so far ahead she could lend 30 votes to Michael Gove.
:04:16. > :04:17.That would knock Andrea Leadsom out and Theresa May would be maybe not
:04:18. > :04:20.certain about beating Andrea Leadsom, but would be very certain
:04:21. > :04:25.about beating Michael Gove, but Theresa May, I am not in favour of
:04:26. > :04:31.tactical voting, so that is not the official position. Let us not forget
:04:32. > :04:36.Michael Gove, he thinks is a serious contender and he thinks Andrea
:04:37. > :04:41.Leadsom has two weakness, one is she didn't have a great performance in
:04:42. > :04:42.font of the 1922 Committee. And her stellar CV. Thank you.
:04:43. > :04:46.Earlier in the day, there was a flurry of excitement,
:04:47. > :04:48.thanks to a candid assessment of the leading candidates
:04:49. > :04:50.from Ken Clarke, caught on a Sky microphone.
:04:51. > :04:52.Many were wondering if it was right to air the comments,
:04:53. > :04:55.as he was apparently unaware he was being recorded, but, well,
:04:56. > :04:59.it just turned out to be too good for broadcasters not to run.
:05:00. > :05:01.I think with Michael as Prime Minister, we would go
:05:02. > :05:03.to war with at least three countries at once.
:05:04. > :05:06.He did us all a favour by getting rid of Boris.
:05:07. > :05:09.The idea of Boris as Prime Minister is ridiculous.
:05:10. > :05:14.I don't think either Andrea Leadsom or Boris Johnson are actually
:05:15. > :05:16.in favour of leaving the European Union.
:05:17. > :05:19.Theresa May is a bloody difficult woman, but you and I worked
:05:20. > :05:27.Well, joining me now are David Davis, the former
:05:28. > :05:29.Shadow Home Secretary, who is supporting Theresa May,
:05:30. > :05:36.and Tim Loughton, who is running Andrea Leadsom's campaign.
:05:37. > :05:46.Ront of the 1922 Committee. And her stellar CV. Thank you. We will take
:05:47. > :05:52.the microphones off later. Let us start on the issue of whether
:05:53. > :05:55.Theresa May is unassailable. Could you imagine a Coronation in which
:05:56. > :06:00.she is just Theresa May is too far ahead in MP votes? Absolutely not.
:06:01. > :06:06.The MPs role is an advisory role. It is up to the membership to decide
:06:07. > :06:10.the final candidate, who becomes leader, who then becomes Prime
:06:11. > :06:17.Minister. The membership will feel cheated if we deny the choice and
:06:18. > :06:23.deny them the choice of a Brexiteer and remainor, David Davis isn't
:06:24. > :06:30.there a problem, if 200 MPs support Theresa May, and the next candidate
:06:31. > :06:35.gets you know, vastly less, 70, I mean what happens? Tim is right.
:06:36. > :06:40.They are having a candidate foisted on them. I can't think of a
:06:41. > :06:44.parallel. Our rules are that the MPs put up the two candidates and the
:06:45. > :06:49.party chooses, now the party may take into account what the MPs do,
:06:50. > :06:53.but it is down to the party at the end of the day. If they choose to
:06:54. > :06:57.elect somebody other than Teresa, that is their choice. David know, he
:06:58. > :07:02.has been through it. I remember that process. You would be happy and you
:07:03. > :07:08.would serve under Andrea Leadsom, if even if she was way behind Theresa
:07:09. > :07:14.May in MP terms. The outcome is the outcome. We have Parliamentary
:07:15. > :07:18.sovereignty. On this subject, picking of the party leader and in
:07:19. > :07:23.this case the PM, it is down to the party members of the country. Are
:07:24. > :07:27.you nervous about tactical voting on Thursday, Tim, I know a lot of and
:07:28. > :07:33.dra's supporters seem to worry there may be some of that. This is my
:07:34. > :07:36.fourth leadership competition I have been in, I have been in Parliament
:07:37. > :07:39.for 19 year, in the past there have been a few hints some of her
:07:40. > :07:45.colleagues have not backbench up front about who they are supporting.
:07:46. > :07:48.Straight forward electorate? Wonderful colleagues may actually
:07:49. > :07:56.not do something they have said they would do, and there is a lot of
:07:57. > :08:00.shenanigans going on, I think the membership would feel cheated if
:08:01. > :08:04.they didn't have Teresa and Andrea. There is a certain niceness and
:08:05. > :08:09.neatness about having an all women the short list that is genuine,
:08:10. > :08:13.hasn't been gerrymandered by two strong women candidate, one from
:08:14. > :08:17.Leave, one from Remain, two who both went to state school. This is
:08:18. > :08:21.something new for the Tory party, it would be a good process, in what
:08:22. > :08:26.changes are coming about as well. Are you suggesting if Michael Gove
:08:27. > :08:29.pips Andrea Leadsom to the second place post on Thursday, are you
:08:30. > :08:33.suggesting that would probably be a result of tactical voting rather
:08:34. > :08:38.than MPs making a straight forward choice? Well we think that Michael
:08:39. > :08:44.got more votes than we expected him to today. We predicted for Andrea 65
:08:45. > :08:51.votes she got 66, so we have had to shoot her Chief Whip. Those are
:08:52. > :08:54.genuine people, who, who back Andrea, because they believe in
:08:55. > :08:57.Andrea, the fresh approach she has got, the experience she has got
:08:58. > :09:02.outside of Parliament. So we are going to increase the votes by
:09:03. > :09:06.people who are coming from Liam and from Stephen Crabb, but also from
:09:07. > :09:09.people who backed Teresa, because they gave Teresa their backing
:09:10. > :09:13.before Andrea came into the campaign, she wasn't in the campaign
:09:14. > :09:17.five days ago, to go from zero to 66, which is is double the
:09:18. > :09:22.predictions this horning is no mean feat. I repeat the question, if
:09:23. > :09:26.Michael Gove beats Andrea Leadsom on Thursday, would you be saying that
:09:27. > :09:31.is almost certainly the result of some kind of tactical voting, rather
:09:32. > :09:35.than honest voting? I I think there would be a steward's inquiry about
:09:36. > :09:41.where the extra votes came from but democracy is democracy. Is is there
:09:42. > :09:47.going to be tactical voting Of course there can be, this is a
:09:48. > :09:52.sophisticated electorate. There is no guidance from us, think of it in
:09:53. > :09:57.these term, let us imagine there are 35 votes in play, so, Teresa could
:09:58. > :10:00.go to 200 vote, right, or she could give the 35 votes to somebody else,
:10:01. > :10:05.in order to switch round, why would we do that? Firstly... Because it is
:10:06. > :10:10.easier to beat Michael Gove as you know. I don't agree with that. But
:10:11. > :10:14.not having, having 200 vote, which is the other alternative is a better
:10:15. > :10:20.outcome, Teresa is the unity candidate. She has pulled together
:10:21. > :10:24.Liam Fox and Stephen Crabb, me, not people you would necessarily expect,
:10:25. > :10:28.and the purpose is to unify the Tory party, the country, she wants the
:10:29. > :10:32.biggest vote. She is not going to give votes to anybody else. It is
:10:33. > :10:35.bonkers. Out of interest, one of the things that everyone has said about
:10:36. > :10:40.reading the view of the electorate in the referendum, is there was an
:10:41. > :10:44.anti-establishment vote, people were looking for someone who was
:10:45. > :10:49.different. I wonder whether either of you has a a candidate who has
:10:50. > :10:55.that. Andrea Leadsom, a city work e I think she went to Warwick, member
:10:56. > :11:02.of a black tie dining club. I was talking to her about this, we never
:11:03. > :11:10.remember that, we dined at hotels in Leamington Spa, the only time I died
:11:11. > :11:15.and my grandmother came in. I was at Warwick University, so we all have
:11:16. > :11:22.that in common. I was I was not part of any dining club, Dan was not. We
:11:23. > :11:31.a really mystified. Warwick is perhaps not the most blue chip. Is
:11:32. > :11:35.it fair to say that... So what She was an investment banker, she worked
:11:36. > :11:38.in fund management, in financial industry, in the city, in which she
:11:39. > :11:45.was widely respected and which she run teams of 3 hundred, she was
:11:46. > :11:48.involved in financial crisis in 2008, working alongside Eddie
:11:49. > :11:52.George, she has run businesses in the real world for 25 years before
:11:53. > :11:57.she came into Parliament, and starting to get into politic. The
:11:58. > :12:02.notion the only experience you could get inside politics, she has more
:12:03. > :12:07.outside politics than any of the candidates. She has been an MP for
:12:08. > :12:12.six year, day David Cameron was only a member for four years she is a
:12:13. > :12:15.highly respected minister. Your candidate has been in office for so
:12:16. > :12:19.many years and associated with failures that were associated with
:12:20. > :12:23.the defeat of the campaign that the referendum campaign on whose side
:12:24. > :12:28.she was. As you said in office she was in the most difficult job in
:12:29. > :12:33.Government, the one that kills people, in being Home Secretary,
:12:34. > :12:35.when I was Shadow Home Secretary for five years I had four Home
:12:36. > :12:42.Secretaries opposite me, she did the job for six years, it is a record in
:12:43. > :12:47.modern times and she was formidable. Things like the negotiation with
:12:48. > :12:51.Jordan over, series of things, incredibly important, that is why
:12:52. > :12:57.she got so many votes today, because they see a track record, a tough
:12:58. > :13:02.lady who knows what he is doing, decisive, competent capable. We have
:13:03. > :13:06.your thoughts on the credentials of your candidates. Let us talk about
:13:07. > :13:11.Brexit. Do you think Brexiteers can trust Theresa May?
:13:12. > :13:18.I just think if we are to have a Prime Minister who we need to
:13:19. > :13:22.negotiate, the most important settlement that we have ever faced
:13:23. > :13:26.in parliament, you need to have someone who is committed to the
:13:27. > :13:31.cause well researched and that caused and showed passion for it
:13:32. > :13:35.during the referendum, stuck up your neck on the block as a minister for
:13:36. > :13:40.the cause and knows how to negotiate. All those boxes are to
:13:41. > :13:45.buy Andrea Leadsom. The issue is not whether you voted for Brexit or
:13:46. > :13:48.whether you can deliver it. It is going to be one of the most
:13:49. > :13:52.sophisticated negotiations we have ever seen, not just us but the
:13:53. > :13:56.generation before us. It will require a competent and capable
:13:57. > :14:00.person, someone who can look Angela Merkel in the eye, who carries that
:14:01. > :14:08.gravitas but also has the intellect to do it. Today, not to pick fights,
:14:09. > :14:13.but up until today or yesterday, Andrea Leadsom, have you lost to go
:14:14. > :14:22.straight to Article 50 and trigger the negotiation. She is a tough nut
:14:23. > :14:27.she has done negotiation, she has dealt with foreign business people,
:14:28. > :14:34.dealt with foreign politicians in her role as Energy Minister and city
:14:35. > :14:38.minister. She is a no-nonsense, fresh start in politics and that is
:14:39. > :14:45.what we need. I'm afraid this is much bigger than that. Heads of
:14:46. > :14:49.state, there are really big arguments to take case and you will
:14:50. > :14:54.have to carry it off not just through the experience of one to
:14:55. > :15:00.energy negotiations, but a huge experience and that is what Theresa
:15:01. > :15:03.has got. She has a track record in the Home Office and when it comes to
:15:04. > :15:14.delivering the best deal for British people coming out of Europe, Theresa
:15:15. > :15:16.May, but Andrea will! Thank you both very much.
:15:17. > :15:17.Before the referendum, British universities were clear
:15:18. > :15:20.that they wanted Britain to remain in the EU.
:15:21. > :15:23.Now, of course, they are having to assess how Brexit will affect them.
:15:24. > :15:25.The Russell Group of top ranked research universities issued
:15:26. > :15:28."We are just as open and welcoming to students,
:15:29. > :15:31.staff and ideas as we were before the referendum", they said,
:15:32. > :15:33.putting a brave face on it, but there are deep
:15:34. > :15:37.Our policy editor, Chris Cook, went to the university city
:15:38. > :15:47.of Sheffield, to find out what's on higher education minds.
:15:48. > :15:50.One vice Chancellor revealed his university is already feeling shock
:15:51. > :15:58.waves from the referendum. Sheffield was a major shock on
:15:59. > :16:00.referendum night. A big prosperous northern city but which voted to
:16:01. > :16:01.leave. And the two universities
:16:02. > :16:04.in Sheffield, like others elsewhere, are now deeply concerned
:16:05. > :16:06.about what comes next. British universities get around 5%
:16:07. > :16:15.of their students from the EU, around 15% of their staff,
:16:16. > :16:17.and around ?800 million It is possible all of those
:16:18. > :16:21.relationships and flows will continue in the future, but right
:16:22. > :16:23.now, uncertainty is causing real problems for our higher
:16:24. > :16:28.education institutions. One Vice Chancellor has broken
:16:29. > :16:33.cover, exclusively for Newsnight, to reveal
:16:34. > :16:36.a major problem. In order to secure research funds,
:16:37. > :16:38.our researchers need to bid You bid competitively
:16:39. > :16:42.and increasingly in an international environment, you bid
:16:43. > :16:49.in international teams. Since the referendum result,
:16:50. > :16:51.of the 12 projects that we have people working
:16:52. > :16:55.on for submission for an end of August deadline, on four of those
:16:56. > :16:58.projects researchers in other European
:16:59. > :17:01.countries have said they no longer feel that the UK should be a partner
:17:02. > :17:04.because they don't have confidence Three other vice
:17:05. > :17:10.chancellors have given us similar accounts,
:17:11. > :17:13.as academics here and abroad fear that
:17:14. > :17:15.post Brexit Britain might be excluded from the EU run
:17:16. > :17:18.research frameworks. One of them is the international
:17:19. > :17:26.engagement that our leading researchers have, the other
:17:27. > :17:28.one is mobility for younger So for our established researchers,
:17:29. > :17:32.because they are part of international
:17:33. > :17:33.networks at the moment, being published, but they know what
:17:34. > :17:38.is going on on the lab bench with And they know why decisions are
:17:39. > :17:41.being made about which particular For the younger researchers,
:17:42. > :17:45.the key thing is the opportunity to work
:17:46. > :17:46.in So as well as their experience
:17:47. > :17:52.of working in another country, they build up new contacts with those
:17:53. > :17:55.networks and those then support And we're going to
:17:56. > :17:58.miss out on both of Norway and Switzerland
:17:59. > :18:05.are out of the EU, but But the uncertainty
:18:06. > :18:10.is painful, and university We get quite a lot of research
:18:11. > :18:17.funding from the EU across a whole And we collaborate with
:18:18. > :18:21.all the EU countries. But one example of this
:18:22. > :18:23.is our Insignia research institute which is looking
:18:24. > :18:26.at how to develop cures for motor And other neuro
:18:27. > :18:32.degenerative disorders. So I think we wouldn't be able to do
:18:33. > :18:36.that research at that level without Now you might be
:18:37. > :18:39.expecting that, but what Stuff that both of Sheffield's
:18:40. > :18:47.universities called EU funded research also supports local
:18:48. > :18:51.high-tech manufacturing jobs. We work with British
:18:52. > :18:59.companies and companies in South Yorkshire
:19:00. > :19:02.as part of the supply chain to big
:19:03. > :19:04.companies like Rolls-Royce, Airbus We train 250 apprentices a year,
:19:05. > :19:09.with 195 small companies in This sort of work relies
:19:10. > :19:17.on attracting great researchers who can help local businesses
:19:18. > :19:18.develop their But vice chancellors already have
:19:19. > :19:23.case studies of prospective staff deciding not
:19:24. > :19:34.to come to Britain. And they fear losing students. I am
:19:35. > :19:38.really comfortable here but since the last vote, all the people from
:19:39. > :19:43.Spain do not know how it is working here, they're worried about that,
:19:44. > :19:50.quite worried about their situation. They do not know what will happen
:19:51. > :19:57.here to me. They do not know if people will still be nice or do not
:19:58. > :20:04.want us here. The UK may stay half in the U science infrastructure and
:20:05. > :20:08.take another pad, some Leave campaign is hoped up UK science
:20:09. > :20:11.bent, but academics need to know. For them it is a particularly
:20:12. > :20:13.chilling interregnum. As if we didn't have enough
:20:14. > :20:15.news to worry about, brace yourselves for tomorrow,
:20:16. > :20:17.when the Chilcot inquiry Another chance for establishment
:20:18. > :20:21.politician to take a kicking. The report has been seven
:20:22. > :20:23.years in the making - It's not designed to point
:20:24. > :20:29.the finger of blame at the mistakes made, it is designed
:20:30. > :20:31.to document the lessons But, of course, some of the lessons
:20:32. > :20:36.we may learn are that certain Sir John has been managing
:20:37. > :20:40.expectations of the report, The main expectation that I have,
:20:41. > :20:49.is that it will no be possible in future to engage in a military,
:20:50. > :20:57.or indeed a diplomatic endeavour on such a scale and of such gravity
:20:58. > :21:02.without really careful challenge, analysis and assessment,
:21:03. > :21:05.and collective political judgment Now, our diplomatic editor
:21:06. > :21:13.Mark Urban will be locked in a room with a number of other journalists
:21:14. > :21:16.to read the report at 8.00am Sir John Chilcot will talk
:21:17. > :21:22.about his findings at 11, and after that, the journalists can
:21:23. > :21:36.report on anything that their speed Let's start with Tony Blair. Where a
:21:37. > :21:41.lot of interest is in this and how the report will handle him and it. I
:21:42. > :21:45.think there will be a good deal of criticism of Tony Blair and the way
:21:46. > :21:51.he ran this but if after the smoking gun, key memo proving he knew that
:21:52. > :21:54.intelligence was false and lied to the people and Parliament, I do not
:21:55. > :21:59.think that is going to be there. I think there will be criticism of the
:22:00. > :22:04.style of government where Cabinet was not fully in the picture, a
:22:05. > :22:07.certain naivete going into it, absence of attention to detail and
:22:08. > :22:10.post-war planning. We may learn other things about Tony Blair as
:22:11. > :22:16.well, perhaps that he also realised it was going horribly wrong rather
:22:17. > :22:19.quicker than President Bush did. What about criticisms generally, how
:22:20. > :22:24.broad will they go, don't Tony Blair? I think it is key to
:22:25. > :22:29.understand that dozens of people will be centred explicitly or
:22:30. > :22:34.implicitly hi-vis. Officials, intelligence people who may not have
:22:35. > :22:38.given the right rigour, who may have allowed their work to be processed
:22:39. > :22:43.in a way that was too political. And not sufficiently caveat it. I think
:22:44. > :22:47.the military will be a substantial area of criticism. I think the
:22:48. > :22:53.report will point out that they lobbied for a big role in Iraq and
:22:54. > :22:57.then when Afghanistan was splitting up in 2005, they lobbied for a big
:22:58. > :23:02.role there before the business was finished in Iraq. All of that
:23:03. > :23:05.influence the level of resources and equipment that the military were
:23:06. > :23:09.able to have. So I expect to see a good deal of criticism of the way
:23:10. > :23:10.the campaign was conducted and the role of senior officers as well as
:23:11. > :23:13.other officials. By the way, Mark will
:23:14. > :23:19.share his observations on the inquiry with you tomorrow,
:23:20. > :23:25.as soon as Sir John stops talking. That'll be about 11.30 tomorrow
:23:26. > :23:29.morning, via Facebook Live. Go to the BBC's Facebook page,
:23:30. > :23:33.and you'll see it there, and you can Well, tomorrow's report
:23:34. > :23:36.will encapsulate in prose the mistakes made at the various
:23:37. > :23:39.stages of the war, and the suffering of both the Iraqi people
:23:40. > :23:41.and the British serviceman I am Reg Keys, I am
:23:42. > :23:59.the father of the late Lance Corporal Tom Keys who was killed
:24:00. > :24:02.in Iraq four days short of his 21st In the run up to the 2003 war,
:24:03. > :24:13.we were hearing all these information about the different
:24:14. > :24:16.types of bombs that are going to be launched on us, the different types
:24:17. > :24:21.of technology that is going to cause damage to our country,
:24:22. > :24:23.it was just so scary. believed my Prime Minister,
:24:24. > :24:27.Tony Blair, that Iraq had these dreadful weapons of mass destruction
:24:28. > :24:30.that were about to be unleashed
:24:31. > :24:34.on the British people at any time, indeed he could deploy
:24:35. > :24:38.in 45 minutes. At the start, when Americans came
:24:39. > :24:40.in, But then that's totally
:24:41. > :24:46.changed straightaway, when they saw things
:24:47. > :24:50.were getting worse. They are not getting better,
:24:51. > :24:55.we have American flags hanging on palaces, I had once
:24:56. > :25:02.a Laser gun on my chest because I was standing
:25:03. > :25:05.my balcony, someone in my house holding a gun towards me,
:25:06. > :25:07.saying this is freedom, this is democracy.
:25:08. > :25:08.Conditions were dire, I
:25:09. > :25:09.remember him saying we did a biological
:25:10. > :25:11.weapon attack drill, he
:25:12. > :25:13.said I put the rubber suit on, this is in
:25:14. > :25:15.stifling heat, these lads were
:25:16. > :25:19.training, feared for their lives, remember they may well be attacked
:25:20. > :25:23.when they were in no danger whatsoever from WMD, but as he put
:25:24. > :25:26.the face mask on, I recall him saying the rubber round the seal
:25:27. > :25:29.During the invasion we didn't go to school.
:25:30. > :25:39.I don't know why they waited till the end of
:25:40. > :25:48.They bombed electricity, they bombed telephone
:25:49. > :25:51.lines, OK, if you won the war, why are you bombing it and letting
:25:52. > :25:54.Tom and some of his colleagues were asked to give
:25:55. > :25:57.out sweets to children to win them over, and there was one dreadful
:25:58. > :26:01.incident, where two young lads, probably 12 or 13, Tom said, had
:26:02. > :26:03.taken sweets off them, and they were grabbed
:26:04. > :26:05.by a mob, taken off, tied to
:26:06. > :26:07.a lamp post and burned alive, as a lesson not
:26:08. > :26:09.to collaborate with the
:26:10. > :26:17.There was no law, there was no order, there
:26:18. > :26:32.The risk of death and serious injury goes along with being a serving
:26:33. > :26:36.soldier, I signed the paperwork for Tom to join the army because he was
:26:37. > :26:40.under 18 and I now have to come to terms with this. I was dealing with
:26:41. > :26:45.that until I started to find out that the weapons of mass destruction
:26:46. > :26:48.did not exist, that the war was based on a falsehood and
:26:49. > :26:55.misrepresentation of intelligence data. And then to my horror, I found
:26:56. > :27:02.that Tom had virtually no equipment, just 50 rounds of ammunition, no
:27:03. > :27:08.radio. No distress flares, no smoke grenade, no hand grenades. For a
:27:09. > :27:14.normal citizen living in Iraq at the moment, the Chilcot report will do
:27:15. > :27:20.nothing, will this report wingback security, will it bring electricity
:27:21. > :27:26.back will it make people feel safe? We want to know exactly why this
:27:27. > :27:33.country went to war with Iraq on the premise of a falsehood of WMD
:27:34. > :27:38.without a second UN resolution. The blood of those who died in Iraq
:27:39. > :27:42.stains the halls of Westminster, it was a shambolic episode in British
:27:43. > :27:49.politics, a disgrace and should never be allowed to happen again.
:27:50. > :27:52.And we will devote the programme tomorrow to the Chilcot report.
:27:53. > :27:55.The Labour Party is in the grip of a fierce
:27:56. > :27:57.Constitutionally, the party belongs to the members,
:27:58. > :28:00.but the MPs feel they have special rights to it as well.
:28:01. > :28:03.And the two are in a standoff over who should be leader.
:28:04. > :28:06.But, while I say that, it has not come to a vote -
:28:07. > :28:09.we just assume that the members would reaffirm their support of
:28:10. > :28:14.Especially, given a surge in new members post-referendum?
:28:15. > :28:17.Well, soon they may be given the chance to vote on a leader,
:28:18. > :28:19.so Lewis Goodall has been travelling the country to sound
:28:20. > :28:42.Meetings of local constituency Labour parties in every corner of
:28:43. > :28:46.the kingdom. There will be strong opinions.
:28:47. > :28:50.Before the meeting starts have a chance to catch up with sop some of
:28:51. > :28:55.the members to see if their support for the leader has soured. Soured.
:28:56. > :28:59.It was for the people round Corbyn, from the beginning there were so
:29:00. > :29:06.many media leaks and bits of things about him not being suitable, but in
:29:07. > :29:10.fact how can you say he is not? His vision is excellent and so many
:29:11. > :29:14.followed hipment Because a small my orty of the party which is a
:29:15. > :29:17.majority of the faction of the party are against him, does not mean he
:29:18. > :29:21.should go. Aren't they more than just a faction? No, that are a
:29:22. > :29:26.faction of the party. They are a fact hundred of the party. And if
:29:27. > :29:30.you want to listen to the party and you want members to be involved and
:29:31. > :29:34.you give them the right to join the party or just pay ?3 to have say you
:29:35. > :29:39.cannot take that away from him because you don't like the decision.
:29:40. > :29:42.If the Labour MPs feel the Labour Party is unrepresentative o their
:29:43. > :29:47.views or the views of their constituents they are within their
:29:48. > :29:50.rights to refuse the Labour whip. Even for Corbyn's detractors it is
:29:51. > :29:55.hard to oppose without an alternative. Why have we got to
:29:56. > :30:00.second guess the Parliamentary Labour Party. There are no
:30:01. > :30:07.candidates. There are no credible candidates coming forward. It does.
:30:08. > :30:13.There is all this movement against the leader, but nobody is standing
:30:14. > :30:16.up and saying I can do a better job. The PLP are acting in a sense of
:30:17. > :30:21.frustration, they are keen to bring about change and change to help
:30:22. > :30:25.ordinary people. Is that why they abstain on the Welfare Bill and why
:30:26. > :30:30.the previous Shadow Chancellor said he would accept some cuts to tax
:30:31. > :30:35.credits? The person who has been most outed is Angela Eagle. Do you
:30:36. > :30:40.have enthusiasm for that? Not at all. I don't think the Labour Party
:30:41. > :30:45.should return to new Labour but our style We shouldn't have a split in
:30:46. > :30:49.the party, which led to the SDP. We haven't got an alternative candidate
:30:50. > :30:56.out yet. Owen Smith's name is being touted. Let us wait and sigh. Would
:30:57. > :31:01.there be more support for him? Him? There is not a vacancy. We have a
:31:02. > :31:06.leader, and the leader has said he is staying put. The Labour Party
:31:07. > :31:10.isn't about one man, and we need, in order to be able do that job
:31:11. > :31:15.effectively, then Jeremy Corbyn needs the support of his MPs, and it
:31:16. > :31:19.seems he doesn't have that. In the event of another leadership election
:31:20. > :31:26.how many of you think Jeremy Corbyn would likely win? And in the event
:31:27. > :31:32.of another leadership election how many of you think you would likely
:31:33. > :31:37.vote for him yourself? Many of their comrades agree. During the meeting
:31:38. > :31:41.three motions were put down in support of Jeremy Corbyn, all three
:31:42. > :31:46.were overwhelmingly carried. All of the motions here were in
:31:47. > :31:49.favour of the leader, but, maybe the people who will determine the next
:31:50. > :31:53.leader of the Labour Party, aren't the people here at all but the
:31:54. > :31:58.people joining the party, to vote against Jeremy Corbyn.
:31:59. > :32:02.The rebels have to hope there are lots of people out there liker can
:32:03. > :32:06.and her daughter aimy from Cleethorpe, they are two of the
:32:07. > :32:09.60,000 people who have joined the party since the referendum. They
:32:10. > :32:14.have never been a member of a party before, but are joining now to vote
:32:15. > :32:21.for anyone but Corbyn. I have always voted, I think it is very important
:32:22. > :32:25.to vote, but I feel that the party I normally vote for isn't there any
:32:26. > :32:31.more, and I feel the next election, I wouldn't know who to vote for.
:32:32. > :32:35.Just feels like momentum have the car keys and they have gone for a
:32:36. > :32:40.joyride and they are not letting us have it back, and they would rather
:32:41. > :32:44.driver it off a cliff than give up power, because this is their moment.
:32:45. > :32:49.I read that so many people are joining and momentum say it is to
:32:50. > :32:53.join to vote for Corbyn, and I know I vote, join to vote against Corbyn,
:32:54. > :32:57.and I think he will hang on and I think it will be the end of the
:32:58. > :33:01.party. I think it could split the party, because people like me, that
:33:02. > :33:04.traditionally always vote Labour won't vote for Jeremy Corbyn in the
:33:05. > :33:09.next election. Will you vote for him in the next election? No. Who would
:33:10. > :33:14.you vote for instead? That is a tough one. I don't think, I don't
:33:15. > :33:17.think I could vote Tory, I think it would have to be the Lib Dem,
:33:18. > :33:21.because I use my vote, I think it is important to vote, and I feel I
:33:22. > :33:26.don't have anyone to vote for. You have voted Labour? Always voted
:33:27. > :33:31.Labour. But the other side are trenched too.
:33:32. > :33:35.Patrick Smith is secretary of Hull north Labour Party and a momentum
:33:36. > :33:41.organiser. Since the coup was launched, last week, we have seen
:33:42. > :33:45.more than 30 members a day, joining, so we are growing rapidly, and I
:33:46. > :33:49.would say that is thanks to Jeremy Corbyn. Do you think it is fair to
:33:50. > :33:53.say Labour is in a state of Civil War right now? Absolutely. I mean,
:33:54. > :33:58.how could you describe it any other way? But it's the MPs who have gone
:33:59. > :34:02.to war with the membership, not the membership who have gone to war with
:34:03. > :34:09.the MPs. Do you feel like you are going to bin that war? Yes. There is
:34:10. > :34:14.a lot more of us than there is of them.
:34:15. > :34:17.Well, if the Labour party is in a standoff, as Lewis
:34:18. > :34:19.suggests it might be, is it perhaps time to call
:34:20. > :34:22.For the party to split into its two component wings?
:34:23. > :34:25.Separating is all the fashion at the moment, after all.
:34:26. > :34:27.There were two influential political columnists today,
:34:28. > :34:29.one in the Times and one in the Financial Times,
:34:30. > :34:31.suggesting that this is no longer an unthinkable option.
:34:32. > :34:33.Proponents hate to call it an SDP mark 2,
:34:34. > :34:38.I'm joined by former Business Secretary Vince Cable,
:34:39. > :34:40.Ayesha Hazarika, who worked for Ed Miliband and Harriet Harman,
:34:41. > :35:00.Can I just start with you, have you had any conversations or heard any
:35:01. > :35:04.conversations about the idea of there being some break away or a
:35:05. > :35:08.split? I have spoken to a number of MPs and people round the Labour
:35:09. > :35:13.Party, today, and certainly there is lots of talk about it, it is in the
:35:14. > :35:18.zeitgeist. I think as much as it is trendy to talk about a conscious
:35:19. > :35:21.uncoupling, I think actually people's heart are not in it. Even
:35:22. > :35:25.though it is a very difficult time for the Labour Party, whether you
:35:26. > :35:30.call it Civil War, whether you call it an impasse, I think actually
:35:31. > :35:34.people's hearts are for sticking with the Labour Party, Neil Kinnock
:35:35. > :35:37.made an impassioned speech at Monday's night meeting of the
:35:38. > :35:41.Parliamentary Labour Party. People feel if the Labour Party was to
:35:42. > :35:47.split now, there might be a short kind of feel-good factor but it
:35:48. > :35:54.would do us real damage, on a long ongoing basis and probably deliver a
:35:55. > :35:57.right-wing Government, for decades. Could I ask though, we have sat, I
:35:58. > :36:02.don't know whether we have sat you in these seats or not. You are
:36:03. > :36:05.closer to Vince Cable, like you are this far from Vince Cable and you
:36:06. > :36:10.are this far from Jeremy Corbyn. You are much closer. You are much closer
:36:11. > :36:14.to Vince Cable than Jeremy Corbyn. I am going to push back on that, I
:36:15. > :36:20.think at the moment, the impasse we have got is not so much an
:36:21. > :36:24.ideological divide, lots of o people are welcoming of jer m's politics,
:36:25. > :36:27.social justice, equality, they are of their time, particularly the
:36:28. > :36:33.anti-austerity rhetoric. It is about the quality of his leadership. That
:36:34. > :36:39.is the issue. It is not ideological divide it is leadership. Vince
:36:40. > :36:47.Cable, close to sigh that. That is the honest answer. ? What would your
:36:48. > :36:52.advice be to the 150, 170 Labour MPs who are dissatisfied with their
:36:53. > :36:57.leader, they will be stuck with him because the party constitution will
:36:58. > :37:01.impose him on them. The present situation is not sustainable. They
:37:02. > :37:04.will be massacred at the next election, we are looking for the
:37:05. > :37:10.first time for decades, fundamental realignment. It is more likely to
:37:11. > :37:13.happen now, because the bonds of the voters to parties have gradually
:37:14. > :37:20.eroded and people are more open to it. It can happen in two ways, one
:37:21. > :37:24.is that my party rises from the Ashes, it is growing rapidly again
:37:25. > :37:29.and we then attract individuals, probably from the Labour Party, and
:37:30. > :37:32.some Tories too. And it becomes a genuine centre movement. The
:37:33. > :37:38.alternative is that the Labour Party split, you get a large chunk of not
:37:39. > :37:42.just old Social Democrats but centrist type Labour people. They
:37:43. > :37:48.become the centre of activity, and the anti-Tory front, and they try to
:37:49. > :37:52.work with us, the Greens and other, there are two different way, one
:37:53. > :37:55.will happen. There is a huge difference, one is a left-wing thing
:37:56. > :37:58.and another is a seven tourist thing. And I people in have been
:37:59. > :38:03.talking about the models as if they are one and the same. They are
:38:04. > :38:07.different. Rachel. I don't know whether you are a paid up member of
:38:08. > :38:11.Labour, I know you are more sympathetic to him. What do you feel
:38:12. > :38:18.when you hear Vince Cable outline the two paths? Well, I think I am
:38:19. > :38:22.more inclined to agree with Ayesha in the sense I don't think the
:38:23. > :38:28.Labour Party really wants to split. I think the people who are, have
:38:29. > :38:33.been having problems with Corbyn and voted against him, when it comes to
:38:34. > :38:36.down to it, don't really want to split the party, I mean it wouldn't
:38:37. > :38:42.be in their interests to split, and you know, go alone and be a small
:38:43. > :38:46.independent faction without the funding, and the organisational
:38:47. > :38:50.mechanisms and the backing of the Labour Party, and I think that you
:38:51. > :38:54.know, it wasn't that great that the vote of no confidence was carried
:38:55. > :38:59.out in a secret ballot but one of the advantages of after that is that
:39:00. > :39:05.we don't need to know, nobody need ever know who voted how, so that in
:39:06. > :39:09.the hopefully forthcoming reconciliation process, there is a
:39:10. > :39:16.way back, there is way to talk to core birntion and find way to
:39:17. > :39:20.resolve the issues, Unite have offered to mediate, they are
:39:21. > :39:24.professionally mediating. You are talking with Corbyn there, you are
:39:25. > :39:29.not saying let's save the party so my side will step down. I am talking
:39:30. > :39:32.about save the party, one of the major things about saving the party
:39:33. > :39:36.is saving the democratic processes of that party, you can't throw them
:39:37. > :39:40.in the air because you don't like the leader, because if you throw
:39:41. > :39:44.away the democratic process you have thrown away the party. Although the
:39:45. > :39:49.members are very important, but the Labour Party is a union between the
:39:50. > :39:54.members, and the people who are elected, to Parliament, by their
:39:55. > :39:58.constituencies, the public and MPs do lots of good work in Parliament.
:39:59. > :40:02.We have talked a lot about that over the last three week, particularly
:40:03. > :40:06.the light of Jo Cox, so the members are important, but the Labour Party
:40:07. > :40:09.is not just a pressure group. We have got think about the next
:40:10. > :40:13.general election, we have got to think about winning seat, not just
:40:14. > :40:17.stacking up a share of the vote. It is starting to great the implication
:40:18. > :40:20.that the people who support Corbyn are not interested in winning
:40:21. > :40:24.election, of course we are. Of course we are interested in power,
:40:25. > :40:29.that is what we are in it for, we want to see progressive change, we
:40:30. > :40:33.want an anti-austerity platform, now, we might disagree about the
:40:34. > :40:41.mechanisms, but there is a process, there is a democratic process, the
:40:42. > :40:46.party has. We need a good leader. The country is in massive crisis,
:40:47. > :40:50.right now, I mean, enormous, we have not had this in my lifetime. We
:40:51. > :40:53.desperately need a coherent opposition to face the Government.
:40:54. > :40:59.Whether it is in Parliament or in fresh election, and as long as the
:41:00. > :41:02.Labour Party is immersed in this totally navel-gazing, inward looking
:41:03. > :41:08.debate, that problem cannot be confronted. They have to start
:41:09. > :41:13.looking out ward. They do. They will not survive if they don't. I get the
:41:14. > :41:17.impression from MP, you and I are ain agreement Rachel. I don't think
:41:18. > :41:21.we want the party to split. There would be a heavy price to pay for
:41:22. > :41:25.that and there is one man that can stop that and that is Jeremy Corbyn.
:41:26. > :41:35.You are saying we agree we don't want to it split, I want your side
:41:36. > :41:40.to give way to mine. No. You are saying keep Corbyn, If the situation
:41:41. > :41:46.is versed I would say the same thing. Would they? Would you expect
:41:47. > :41:49.people to say things they do not believe out of loyalty for Jeremy
:41:50. > :41:54.Corbyn? Would he do that? Would he stick by a leader come what may?
:41:55. > :41:59.That is the thing, when it comes down to it, what is it, what are the
:42:00. > :42:06.policies that these MPs disagree with Corbyn on? What is it about...
:42:07. > :42:11.It is not an ideological... It is come fence in leadership. When you
:42:12. > :42:16.go for your next apraisele you can't say I think I am brilliant, even
:42:17. > :42:19.though I am sure they will, you can't just declare you are
:42:20. > :42:24.brilliant. When you win the leadership of the Labour Party, you
:42:25. > :42:28.win the right to, to lead, you win an opportunity to lead. You don't
:42:29. > :42:34.win a divine right to fail and cling on and destroy the party. I want to
:42:35. > :42:39.bring Vince in on this. The story of the SDP haunts this. You were there,
:42:40. > :42:41.you were involved. I was. Do you think of it being a success, what
:42:42. > :42:52.lessons would you draw? Some of the personalities are at the
:42:53. > :42:57.same, Jeremy Corbyn was a big figure in North London Labour. Europe was
:42:58. > :43:00.in the background. The difference is the way that the parties have
:43:01. > :43:07.changed, the old tribal loyalties have gone. From the point of view of
:43:08. > :43:12.Labour activists it was a failure because the Tories continued in
:43:13. > :43:17.power. In a deeper sense probably it was successful, it forced the Labour
:43:18. > :43:24.Party to confront electability and so you had real Kimmich and then
:43:25. > :43:28.John Smith and Tony Blair who made the party a highly successful party
:43:29. > :43:34.of government until the Iraq War. -- Neil Kinnock. Without the SDLP it
:43:35. > :43:41.would have been much more difficult to achieve. We will see if there is
:43:42. > :43:44.a split. Any predictions of that happening? I think the Labour Party
:43:45. > :43:51.will fight to reconcile and get some kind of marriage counselling sorted
:43:52. > :43:55.out, that is my hope. I think marriage counselling is the way
:43:56. > :43:57.forward, absolutely. If there are not irreconcilable differences.
:43:58. > :43:59.Now, before we go, it's the biggest day in Welsh
:44:00. > :44:01.football history tomorrow, as they take on Portugal
:44:02. > :44:03.in the semi-final of the European Championships.
:44:04. > :44:05.To get you in the mood, here's former National Poet
:44:06. > :44:07.of Wales, Gillian Clarke, who has recorded a special
:44:08. > :44:09.version of her poem, Stadium, just for us.
:44:10. > :44:19.The legend goes like this: the land is cold and bare,
:44:20. > :44:22.when the people wake to a strange new hope and a mood
:44:23. > :44:27.There is one with a silver boot and one with a raptor's stare,
:44:28. > :44:29.and all of them young and strung with steel, and ready
:44:30. > :44:36.There is one with the speed of a hound, and one with the heart
:44:37. > :44:38.of a hare, and millions to surge and urge them on,
:44:39. > :44:45.A cloud lifts from the land, the sun stands in the air,
:44:46. > :44:47.when the ball goes straight through the golden gate,
:44:48. > :44:50.like a comet with streaming hair, the bells will ring and the people
:44:51. > :45:11.Good evening. A rather cool might on the way but any early chill one
:45:12. > :45:16.debate but the sunshine tomorrow morning. The cloud increases from
:45:17. > :45:18.the West, turning some of the sunshine