:00:15. > :00:19.It's 7am Friday 24th of June and the people of Britain have voted to
:00:20. > :00:24.leave the European Union in an historic move that has stunned the
:00:25. > :00:30.rest of the continent. They have decided that it is time to vote to
:00:31. > :00:34.take back control. This is a dreadful day. It's one of the worst
:00:35. > :00:41.days of my life to find my country leaving. What swayed it for you? I
:00:42. > :00:46.don't know. I suddenly had a real, "Come on England." We are part of
:00:47. > :00:50.Europe, continuing to interact with the peoples of other countries. Look
:00:51. > :00:55.at my hand, we work for this country. You see it, yeah? In a way
:00:56. > :00:58.that is open and friendly and outward looking. 3% is not a
:00:59. > :01:05.majority. Let's do this again. One more time! The most precious thing
:01:06. > :01:08.this country has given our continent is the idea of Parliamentary
:01:09. > :01:11.democracy. I do not think it would be right for me to try to be the
:01:12. > :01:19.captain that steers our country to its next destination. Shame on you
:01:20. > :01:24.Boris! The young people in this country can look forward to a more
:01:25. > :01:29.secure and more prosperous future. We couldn't have voted better, a lot
:01:30. > :01:34.time country. At least we get our country back. You want to take your
:01:35. > :01:37.troops from JP Morgan to the Paris, have a lovely holiday, because I'll
:01:38. > :01:46.give you a clue guys, you'll be back. Vote for hope. You can't vote
:01:47. > :01:53.for hope. There's no hope nowadays. We believe in a union not just
:01:54. > :01:57.between the nations of the UK but between all of our citizens, every
:01:58. > :02:11.one of us, whoever we are, and wherever we're from.
:02:12. > :02:19.Hello. It's exactly a month since referendum day June 23, the day
:02:20. > :02:24.everything changed. There's been so much to take in. On Newsnight we've
:02:25. > :02:27.barely had time to cover it all. Today we're taking stock. We're at
:02:28. > :02:34.the Royal Geographical Society in London live. We've teamed up with
:02:35. > :02:39.the country's top brains and an audience of about 700 foolhardy
:02:40. > :02:41.members of the public on this stiflingly warm evening and we're
:02:42. > :02:45.trying to make sense of what has happened and what's next.
:02:46. > :02:51.The conversation and the debate this afternoon has been both sparky and
:02:52. > :02:55.sparkling. Everything on the future of scientific research, in a Brexit
:02:56. > :03:00.world and what will happen to laws, such as the European arrest warrant
:03:01. > :03:06.and cyber security. Now that Theresa May has raise today, the possible
:03:07. > :03:09.issues of EU nationals already in UK remaining, and UK nationals in
:03:10. > :03:32.Europe. We've been asking people for their hopes and fears.
:03:33. > :04:00.MUSIC ... WILL CARRY US THROUGH TO better
:04:01. > :04:04.times. Most people voted because they wanted to take back control
:04:05. > :04:07.from the European Union and let our country govern itself again. That
:04:08. > :04:11.offers a world of opportunity both in terms of our social policy, in
:04:12. > :04:17.terms of our economic policy too. For me, my hopes and fears are
:04:18. > :04:29.centred on my education. I was really looking to study languages in
:04:30. > :04:33.perhaps France or Spain. I fear about, there will be less interest
:04:34. > :04:38.in environmental concerns. I think my hopes for Brexit are that we
:04:39. > :04:47.leave the EU as safe as we can, with minimal damage. There's been a lot
:04:48. > :04:51.of talking all day here. Before we look ahead, we want to spend a few
:04:52. > :04:55.minutes looking back at the referendum campaign itself. It was
:04:56. > :04:59.easily one of the most memorable contests of our lifetime, a
:05:00. > :05:04.surprisingly devicive and fraught affair. Both sides accused the other
:05:05. > :05:07.of lying or exaggerating. Even though the public by all accounts
:05:08. > :05:10.were sceptical of the claims made, they were engaged. I remember
:05:11. > :05:15.someone involved on one side saying the turnout would be low, lucky if
:05:16. > :05:20.it reached 60%. In the event it was over 70. At the end of it, one side
:05:21. > :05:26.won, the other lost. Now it's important to know how and why Leave
:05:27. > :05:29.did win in order to interpret the message the public were sending. Our
:05:30. > :05:33.political editor has been talking to those at the heart of the campaigns
:05:34. > :05:42.and has this, the inside story of why Leave prevailed.
:05:43. > :05:48.If Boris Johnson looked surprised and a little shaken, hours after
:05:49. > :05:52.vote leave's historic victory, that's because he was. Newsnight
:05:53. > :05:55.understands that as voters went to the polls, Boris thought that his
:05:56. > :06:00.campaign was probably headed for defeat. He had even drafted a series
:06:01. > :06:04.of remarks in response to an expected narrow loss in the
:06:05. > :06:13.referendum. So how did the Prime Minister end up on the losing side?
:06:14. > :06:16.When David Cameron took a gamble by calling the referendum, Boris
:06:17. > :06:20.Johnson had some sympathy for his view that it would be third time
:06:21. > :06:25.lucky for the Prime Minister. He had won the Scottish and the general
:06:26. > :06:30.election. Behind-the-scenes, though, on the Remain side, there was never
:06:31. > :06:34.any complacency. Alarm bells started to ring for some shortly after the
:06:35. > :06:38.general election last year, when the leaders of the main pro-EU group
:06:39. > :06:43.were asked at a board meeting at this building here to name their ten
:06:44. > :06:48.favourite things about the EU. There was silence around the table. For
:06:49. > :06:54.the true believers, the benefits of the EU were simply beyond
:06:55. > :06:59.description. Back in 2015, in April, we got our first research from the
:07:00. > :07:03.populist, the pollsters throughout the campaign. It showed that people
:07:04. > :07:06.knew all the negative arguments about the EU and couldn't name a
:07:07. > :07:14.single positive about what the EU meant. The Remain camp soon found
:07:15. > :07:20.they had to contend with a simple, but highly effective message from
:07:21. > :07:26.their opponents. The genius moment came in August of last year, we were
:07:27. > :07:31.in the office at Westminster tower over there, half of the office was a
:07:32. > :07:36.building site at that point, the other half was working on trestle
:07:37. > :07:42.tables and Dominic had the moment. He said, the message has to be -
:07:43. > :07:45.vote leave, take control. That developed into vote leave, take back
:07:46. > :07:50.control. We knew it was a message that would cut through. David
:07:51. > :07:53.Cameron had been confident that the Tories' star player would be on his
:07:54. > :07:58.side. But Boris Johnson alerted the Prime Minister of his plan to join
:07:59. > :08:02.the Leave campaign shortly before his formal announcement Had it just
:08:03. > :08:08.been me, we would have lost. It's simple. You have to have different
:08:09. > :08:12.messengers. There's little doubt that the Boris voice, the Michael
:08:13. > :08:16.Gove voice probably was very useful in parts of Surrey and places,
:08:17. > :08:20.really in places like that, where perhaps naturally, Remain might have
:08:21. > :08:24.had a bigger vote and where I wouldn't necessarily have appealed
:08:25. > :08:28.to those people. Boris has extraordinary ability to attract
:08:29. > :08:36.crowds, in a way which you wouldn't dare to stage manage. The first time
:08:37. > :08:40.out and we were given two ice creams. This woman goes up to Boris
:08:41. > :08:44.and says, oh, can I eat your ice-cream, please. There you go,
:08:45. > :08:48.it's delicious. While the Leave campaign had a showbiz feel, the
:08:49. > :08:54.Government had the international big guns. Barack Obama used a visit to
:08:55. > :08:57.London to warn that the UK would, in a distinctly un-American phrase, be
:08:58. > :09:03.at the back of the queue in securing a trade deal outside the EU. Shortly
:09:04. > :09:06.after the Obama visit, the Leave campaigners gathered in Boris
:09:07. > :09:13.Johnson's Westminster office to assess the state of play, over a
:09:14. > :09:17.Chinese takeaway. We came under barrage, after barrage of artillery
:09:18. > :09:22.fire from the IMF, from the OECD, from the Bank of England, Obama came
:09:23. > :09:28.over late April. I remember having dinner with, I think, Boris,
:09:29. > :09:32.Michael, Andrea and Priti and we had a discussion on what would happen. I
:09:33. > :09:36.said I thought we would win because they'd fired all this stuff at us
:09:37. > :09:40.and we were neck and neck. The Remain campaign thought they were on
:09:41. > :09:45.strong ground, as they highlighted their opponents' claim about how
:09:46. > :09:49.much money the UK sends to the EU. The ?350 million figure was
:09:50. > :09:54.devastatingly effective. The last thing that we wanted to do was get
:09:55. > :09:58.into an argument on television with the Leave campaign about whether the
:09:59. > :10:02.real figure was 350 million or 170 million or 210 million because all
:10:03. > :10:06.those numbers sound huge. The challenge was to find a number that
:10:07. > :10:09.trumped it, as a number that captured the benefits of being in
:10:10. > :10:14.for our economy and for people and therefore the risks of leaving. We
:10:15. > :10:18.failed to do that. Every time they kept quibbling with us about it, we
:10:19. > :10:21.made the positive case for control over our borders, control over our
:10:22. > :10:25.money. It gave us another 24 hours talking about an issue that people
:10:26. > :10:28.cared about and where we were on the right side of the debate. You're not
:10:29. > :10:32.going to give that up. Nerves soon developed in the Remain campaign
:10:33. > :10:38.over a Government claim about the economic impact of Brexit on the
:10:39. > :10:43.average household. The problem with that figure, the ?4,300 figure,
:10:44. > :10:47.firstly, it sounded implauzibly large to the ears of most people.
:10:48. > :10:53.Secondly, it sounded strangely specific. The figure was phased out.
:10:54. > :10:59.When we tested the reaction, people just rejected it. They didn't
:11:00. > :11:03.believe. It The Remain camp also became aware that its core message
:11:04. > :11:07.about the wider being nomic risks of exit meant nothing in deprived
:11:08. > :11:10.areas, where concerns about immigration were to the fore. The
:11:11. > :11:15.people who were very, very concerned about immigration, what they wanted
:11:16. > :11:20.was purely and simply for the UK to be able to have total control of its
:11:21. > :11:25.borders and total control of the flow of people into this country. We
:11:26. > :11:28.didn't have an argument that could remotely compete with that. We
:11:29. > :11:33.couldn't really engage in the campaign on that vital issue. We
:11:34. > :11:39.didn't have much option but to keep pivot back to the economic risks.
:11:40. > :11:43.With a month to go until polling day, the Remain campaign lost its
:11:44. > :11:47.momentum when the Government machinery was obliged to grind to a
:11:48. > :11:51.halt. This coincided with the release of official figures, which
:11:52. > :11:56.showed that the Government had once again bust its net migration target.
:11:57. > :12:01.Vote Leave had days of dream headlines. With the polls turning in
:12:02. > :12:06.vote Leave's favour, I understand in mid-June a nervous David Cameron
:12:07. > :12:12.discussed with aides in Number Ten a last throw of the dice to rescue his
:12:13. > :12:19.campaign by reaching out to disgruntled voters on EU migration.
:12:20. > :12:22.The Prime Minister telephoned the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, as
:12:23. > :12:27.a first step towards persuading other EU leaders to issue a joint
:12:28. > :12:32.statement. This would have said that a vote to remain in the EU would
:12:33. > :12:36.finally trigger concessions on the highly controversial issue of free
:12:37. > :12:42.movement of people. Nothing came of the idea. Merkel was later to tell
:12:43. > :12:46.David Cameron there could be no compromise on free movement, while
:12:47. > :12:49.Number Ten concluded that such a dramatic move would be portrayed by
:12:50. > :12:55.the Leave side as a sign of weakness. But a week before polling
:12:56. > :12:59.day, the campaign came to an unexpected halt, when news came
:13:00. > :13:03.through of the murder of the Labour MP, Jo Cox, hours after Ukip had
:13:04. > :13:07.unveiled a highly controversial poster. I don't think that poster
:13:08. > :13:10.would have been a big news event over that weekend, had it not been
:13:11. > :13:14.for the timing of it and the circumstances of that death. After
:13:15. > :13:18.all, that particular picture was all over the front pages of our
:13:19. > :13:21.newspapers last year. I'm very sorry for the timing of the poster. I'm
:13:22. > :13:27.sorry for the way in which it was used. I'm not sorry for showing the
:13:28. > :13:31.truth. But perhaps unwittingly, it did, in the end, get the debate
:13:32. > :13:37.back, for the last few days, onto the one thing that people out there
:13:38. > :13:41.really, really care about. The official vote Leave campaign were
:13:42. > :13:46.appalled by the poster. I was actually in the middle of a debate
:13:47. > :13:52.at York University when all a sudden, I was getting text messages
:13:53. > :14:00.through on my phone about Joe Cox's murder. When I got the news through
:14:01. > :14:05.that he shouted "Britain first" I thought it could be the end of the
:14:06. > :14:10.campaign. The mixture of Joe Cox's death plus the unveiling of the very
:14:11. > :14:15.controversial Ukip poster - breaking point - I thought could tip us over
:14:16. > :14:19.the edge. The two sides briefly suspended their campaigns, after the
:14:20. > :14:22.death of Jo Cox. But hostilities resumed in time for the final
:14:23. > :14:27.television show down days before the vote.
:14:28. > :14:33.For me, it was really clear during the preparation sessions for the TV
:14:34. > :14:37.debates, I was playing the role of Andrea Leadsom. What was clear they
:14:38. > :14:42.had one simple phrase and they just kept repeating it and it allowed
:14:43. > :14:45.them to have an answer to anybody's concerns over anything, whether you
:14:46. > :14:50.fear for your job, whether you don't like the Government, whether you
:14:51. > :14:51.have concerns over pressures on public services, vote leave, take
:14:52. > :15:04.back control. Really simple. The Remain side also believed that
:15:05. > :15:09.Jeremy Corbyn's less than enthusiastic support undermined
:15:10. > :15:11.their campaign. It was a nightmare to have less than enthusiastic
:15:12. > :15:17.support from the leader of the Labour Party. The Labour Party made
:15:18. > :15:21.up the bulk of the correct voters. It was absolutely crucial to get our
:15:22. > :15:24.message to them. What we were frustrated by was how hard it was to
:15:25. > :15:33.engage with Jeremy Corbyn's office, how difficult it was to get
:15:34. > :15:38.meetings. The Leave side triumphed after David Cameron lost his gamble.
:15:39. > :15:43.In the end, the desire to win back control over relegation trumped
:15:44. > :15:48.fears over economic uncertainty and unnerved Boris Johnson to say that
:15:49. > :15:50.the UK might be leaving the EU didn't it would always embrace
:15:51. > :16:02.Europe. Well, I dare say, huge tracts will
:16:03. > :16:04.be, and on that campaign. Here with us now, the former Deputy Prime
:16:05. > :16:13.Minister Nick Clegg, Labour MP Stella Creasy and Conservative and
:16:14. > :16:19.Leave campaigner... I just wonder whether you think the immigration
:16:20. > :16:24.issue in the end was what won it? I think it was a mixture of things.
:16:25. > :16:28.Certainly I experienced this in Sheffield and South Yorkshire, where
:16:29. > :16:32.I was campaigning - a lot of people who were asked, do you like the
:16:33. > :16:37.status quo? I said, I don't. There was a lot of issues, immigration,
:16:38. > :16:41.poor housing, social care for elderly relatives. It was a simple,
:16:42. > :16:46.do you like the way things are? And a lot of people said no. That and
:16:47. > :16:54.many other reasons lie behind the big vote to leave. Should they not
:16:55. > :17:00.have thought what the answer, had a line, which might work? My own view
:17:01. > :17:05.is, some declaration which the Brexit camp would have been able to
:17:06. > :17:07.shoot holes in within minutes, from the European leaders, press-ganged
:17:08. > :17:12.at the last minute, would not have worked. My own view was that the
:17:13. > :17:16.Remain camp should have been much, much more aggressive at challenging
:17:17. > :17:22.the Brexit campaign about what on earth they mean. Because the
:17:23. > :17:26.immigration story went unchallenged. Just this week we have had the Prime
:17:27. > :17:31.Minister of Ireland saying very clearly, there will not be hard
:17:32. > :17:35.controls on our border with the EU. So how on earth are we supposed to
:17:36. > :17:38.take back control if we are not going to reintroduce controls at the
:17:39. > :17:44.new border with the EU? All of that was left unchallenged because Remain
:17:45. > :17:48.camp did not want to take on the issue of immigration. I think they
:17:49. > :17:51.could have done that with more aggression and self confidence than
:17:52. > :17:58.they did. What did you think of Jeremy Corbyn's role, was he part of
:17:59. > :18:05.the reason why Remain did not win? I have to say on that, on a personal
:18:06. > :18:09.level, it hurts. It hurts to see that actually something we decided
:18:10. > :18:12.as a political movement, something we felt strongly enough for it to be
:18:13. > :18:17.official policy, not getting the backing of the leader. That does not
:18:18. > :18:20.mean that Jeremy personally could have got every single Labour voter
:18:21. > :18:24.to vote Remain. We have to recognise that lots of people who normally
:18:25. > :18:28.vote Labour did vote to leave. But it is about the contract that you
:18:29. > :18:32.make as a political movement. Once you agree something as party policy,
:18:33. > :18:36.you put your heart and soul into it. I went around the country, many
:18:37. > :18:40.others worked very hard to try to get a Remain vote, to try to counter
:18:41. > :18:44.some of those arguments, to recognise that we have a country
:18:45. > :18:48.which is so very divided now reading how we were going to take it
:18:49. > :18:52.forward. And it felt like Jeremy pulled himself out of that process.
:18:53. > :18:56.And on a personal level, that hurt. Something so fundamental, not forget
:18:57. > :19:00.that heart and soul from your leader is devastating. Let's not talk too
:19:01. > :19:05.much about the campaign. Let's talk about what the voters were saying.
:19:06. > :19:08.Nick, you gave an account, it was a vote against the status quo.
:19:09. > :19:17.Stellar, I think you're saying almost the same thing. As a Leaver,
:19:18. > :19:21.what do you think the voters were saying, was it a bigger protest of
:19:22. > :19:25.some kind? I think what nick said is true. There is a lot of truth in
:19:26. > :19:31.saying that there were a number of issues, not just one reason. But we
:19:32. > :19:36.cannot gloss over the fact that the whole issue of EU membership was
:19:37. > :19:40.exactly what it said it was. People knew they were going to have to
:19:41. > :19:44.vote, that if we voted to stay in, we would not revisit this question
:19:45. > :19:48.for 25 years. They felt it was a once-in-a-lifetime vote. I felt they
:19:49. > :19:53.were very clear eyed about whether they wanted to stay in, certainly in
:19:54. > :19:57.my constituency, which voted 60-40 out. They made a rational choice,
:19:58. > :20:03.and they said, we want to leave. We want out. What do you read into
:20:04. > :20:08.that? Was it immigration? Was it, take back control and what you might
:20:09. > :20:11.call sovereignty, that sense of empowerment you might get by being
:20:12. > :20:16.able to kick out your politicians? The two biggest issues were clearly
:20:17. > :20:20.immigration, and also this broader, more abstract sense of sovereignty.
:20:21. > :20:25.We can have a philosophical argument about what sovereignty is. But
:20:26. > :20:29.certainly in my constituency, people felt that by leaving the EU, they
:20:30. > :20:36.were leaving some sense of... What were the figures? I have seen some
:20:37. > :20:41.polling data. I suspect that about 70% were one of those two issues.
:20:42. > :20:47.Those were by far the biggest issues. Do you agree with that, that
:20:48. > :20:51.those two issues Blade Babe part 18 or do you think you cannot reduce it
:20:52. > :20:54.to anyone of them? I will tell you what I do think it emerged during
:20:55. > :21:01.the course of the campaign. As your film suggested, the emotional appeal
:21:02. > :21:08.of the Brexit campaign was strong. I heard it myself, people saying, I'm
:21:09. > :21:12.going to take a control, vote no. It was a wonderfully pithy, emotive
:21:13. > :21:16.appeal. Generally I have discovered in politics, people vote with their
:21:17. > :21:21.heads. The barrage of statistics from the Treasury, saying that in 30
:21:22. > :21:26.years' time your household finances may be worth of this or that, just
:21:27. > :21:31.could not compete. I have to say, I felt a very pivotal moment was when
:21:32. > :21:33.George Osborne, I think in a spectacularly misjudged initiative,
:21:34. > :21:37.basically announced about a week or so before the referendum, that if
:21:38. > :21:42.people did not do what he told them to do, he would whack up their taxes
:21:43. > :21:47.or cut their public services. I almost felt like voting out at that
:21:48. > :21:52.point X Commission think the appeal to people is hearts was much
:21:53. > :21:55.stronger. It is easy for me to say this, but I sometimes wish a bit of
:21:56. > :22:01.poetry could have been mixed in with the pros of the Remain campaign. It
:22:02. > :22:06.is interesting to see whether the public thought this was a vote on
:22:07. > :22:13.immigration, stellar. Was it the core issue, or was it sovereignty?
:22:14. > :22:20.And does it matter? I don't think we can get away with this. One of the
:22:21. > :22:23.moments which really broke my heart, in my community, Walthamstow has
:22:24. > :22:27.always been proud of its diversity, and I watched a Somali woman
:22:28. > :22:31.racially abusing a Hungarian woman, shouting at her that her daughter
:22:32. > :22:35.could not get a job so she should go back to the country where she came
:22:36. > :22:39.from. I knew then that the divisive rhetoric of the Leave campaign had
:22:40. > :22:43.ramifications far beyond the vote around Brexit. Absolutely, what they
:22:44. > :22:46.tapped into is a divide in this country between the people who feel
:22:47. > :22:49.they have a place in our future and to know how they are going to make
:22:50. > :22:53.it, and those who don't feel they have a part in our future. That is
:22:54. > :23:01.the challenge for all of us to deal with. That was not the case in my
:23:02. > :23:05.constituency. You are saying more than 50% of people feel they have no
:23:06. > :23:10.stake in the future. I am saying people felt they had nothing left to
:23:11. > :23:16.lose. There is a narrative building up about Labour voters. 58% of Tory
:23:17. > :23:22.voters, not members, voters, in the country, voted out. And that was a
:23:23. > :23:27.huge chunk of the Leave vote. And a lot of these people are not people
:23:28. > :23:30.who feel they have no stake, or have nothing to lose. They are people who
:23:31. > :23:36.made a rational choice about the future of this country. People must
:23:37. > :23:40.think that politics works for them, that is the question. We have got it
:23:41. > :23:44.changes coming up in front of us, and now some really difficult
:23:45. > :23:50.choices, do they feel the political process engages with them or not?
:23:51. > :23:53.That is the challenge for all of us. Actually, in the course of the
:23:54. > :23:59.campaign, I did an event in your father's constituency, and I think
:24:00. > :24:03.he was in the audience. And these were not people, I think it is in
:24:04. > :24:06.Buckinghamshire, where he lives, nick and these were people who
:24:07. > :24:14.overwhelmingly voting to leave the EU. And they were people who had...
:24:15. > :24:22.Not my dad! There is no-one explanation. Always portrayed as
:24:23. > :24:26.people who had no stake. We have had a lot of discussion today. And it is
:24:27. > :24:32.not the case. It is not the whole story. A lot of towns which had
:24:33. > :24:34.great industries and lost them did vote to leave. Let's talk about
:24:35. > :24:41.where we go from here. It appears that where we are is in making a
:24:42. > :24:44.choice between a Brexit light and a hard Brexit. Between staying in the
:24:45. > :24:48.single market or not. Or saying, immigration is what it is all about,
:24:49. > :24:52.you have got to give up on the single market to control
:24:53. > :24:57.immigration. Where are you on that? My fundamental red line is a control
:24:58. > :25:03.on free movement, some concession. I was speaking earlier, when I decided
:25:04. > :25:06.to go for Brexit, I was always euro skip it, I was not like Daniel
:25:07. > :25:12.Hannan or some of the more forceful Eurostat X, for when the Prime
:25:13. > :25:15.Minister, David Cameron, failed to get any concession whatsoever on the
:25:16. > :25:20.freedom of movement, that was the moment I think in February that I
:25:21. > :25:25.decided to Vote Leave. That was fundamental. Stellar, where are you
:25:26. > :25:30.on that trade-off? I think there is a conversation about what we mean by
:25:31. > :25:34.freedom of movement of labour, and how you define the skills and
:25:35. > :25:37.abilities which people bring two countries. But fundamentally, access
:25:38. > :25:43.to the single market is massive to our economy. It is not popular to
:25:44. > :25:47.talk about the City, but that's 30% of our tax receipts. We have got to
:25:48. > :25:50.make some hard-headed choices. Those people we were talking about are
:25:51. > :25:54.people who were left behind well before this happened. The truth
:25:55. > :25:57.about how we get them good skills, good jobs, investment in those
:25:58. > :26:04.communities, has to be at the heart of any decision. So, Brexit light,
:26:05. > :26:10.basically. What about nick, what is your view? Quasi-'s new party leader
:26:11. > :26:15.has said what she wants. She said in Paris and in Berlin, very clearly,
:26:16. > :26:19.she said, the United Kingdom will now seek, and I quote, the closest
:26:20. > :26:23.possible economic relationship with the European Union. The closest
:26:24. > :26:28.possible economic relationship with the European Union, that we have at
:26:29. > :26:34.present. In other words... And you are happy with that? Yes, I am,
:26:35. > :26:37.because at the end of the day, we at talking about people's lives and
:26:38. > :26:41.jobs and ability to pay their bills will stop I think we are talking
:26:42. > :26:45.about something akin to, maybe even better than, what Norway has got.
:26:46. > :26:47.There has been a lot of discussion about the trade-off between the
:26:48. > :26:50.single market and freedom of movement. The thing the Government
:26:51. > :26:54.needs to decide, when they finally put us all out of our misery and
:26:55. > :26:58.tell us what their plan is, they have got to be upfront about this -
:26:59. > :27:02.if you want to have unlimited or extensive access to the single
:27:03. > :27:05.market, can only do so by abiding by the rules and the rulings of the
:27:06. > :27:11.single market. I would call that a loss of sovereignty. But there is no
:27:12. > :27:14.way around that. If you want to trade into the single market, you
:27:15. > :27:18.have to abide by the rules of it. That is something this government
:27:19. > :27:21.will have to come clean with us on at some point. I want to get the
:27:22. > :27:26.views of the audience. They have been with us during the day. It was
:27:27. > :27:29.a first-come, first-served event, not like a usual BBC audience which
:27:30. > :27:35.has been constructed to be in some way balanced. And we know from the
:27:36. > :27:44.rest of the day, it is overwhelmingly Remain, in this west
:27:45. > :27:47.London venue. LAUGHTER. What I wanted to ask the audience, there
:27:48. > :27:52.was a splendid piece by Matthew Parris in the Times newspaper today,
:27:53. > :27:56.talking about Remainer grief, and we have had a fair bit of that in the
:27:57. > :28:00.room today. He was saying, you have to accept the result. What I wanted
:28:01. > :28:05.to ask the audience was, whether you accept the result, is it time to
:28:06. > :28:09.make the best of Brexit, or is it time to fight and see if you can get
:28:10. > :28:12.the referendum reversed? How many of you in the audience would say it is
:28:13. > :28:17.time to accept the result and make the best of Brexit? And how many of
:28:18. > :28:25.you would say, fight and see if you can get the thing reversed? I would
:28:26. > :28:37.say 60-40, in favour of Remain. How many people here actually think they
:28:38. > :28:40.know what Brexit will be?! APPLAUSE. Let me just ask, Stella Creasy, do
:28:41. > :28:45.you think we should have a second referendum, when we know what Brexit
:28:46. > :28:49.means? I think, yes, we have to accept the fact that that is the
:28:50. > :28:53.result. We have to deal with the result, all of us, whether we were
:28:54. > :28:57.for it or against it. But it is the small print and the detail. There
:28:58. > :29:01.are big choices. If we don't have access to the single market, that's
:29:02. > :29:06.30% of our tax receipts. If we're going to change freedom of
:29:07. > :29:12.movement... It is not 30%. The City of London... How do you know? These
:29:13. > :29:16.people now deserve the detail. I want to get a couple of views from
:29:17. > :29:20.the floor. I know we have got a group around a microphone over
:29:21. > :29:25.there. What is your view on the second referendum issue, or some way
:29:26. > :29:28.of getting back? I was one of the more than 4 million people who
:29:29. > :29:33.petitioned for a second referendum. I was hoping that the majority would
:29:34. > :29:36.now accept the importance of staying in the EU, which I think is so vital
:29:37. > :29:40.for the future of Britain, in so many aspects, including my own
:29:41. > :29:44.personal interest in the future of medical research and the British
:29:45. > :29:49.university system where I work. Howard, where are you? I think we
:29:50. > :29:58.know which side you are coming from, from your T-shirt. I am a Democrat
:29:59. > :30:06.so the government is governing with the consent of the population. The
:30:07. > :30:09.referendum gave the population the opportunity to say that they do not
:30:10. > :30:13.like the consensus the way it is at the moment. If Parliament decides
:30:14. > :30:18.that we have a proposal for how to change, it may be that the
:30:19. > :30:22.electorate should be given the opportunity to demonstrate their
:30:23. > :30:27.consent or... You are slightly untypical, I think. You are
:30:28. > :30:31.thinking, even as a Leaver you might want to put the consent back at the
:30:32. > :30:40.end of it. I am very well aware that Parliament is 75% Remain, so...
:30:41. > :30:45.I wouldn't endorse a second referendum. But there seems to be a
:30:46. > :30:49.confidence almost an arrogance on the part of the Remain team that if
:30:50. > :30:54.there were a second referendum they would get the result that they
:30:55. > :31:01.wanted. If they didn't do that, then I mean, they would have leave the
:31:02. > :31:04.pitch and abide by the result. My suspicion going round my
:31:05. > :31:10.constituency, is that the Leave vote has hardened and people are appalled
:31:11. > :31:15.by the condescension that many Remainers that's not Nick. Or my
:31:16. > :31:18.dad. Yes, your dad. Thank you all very much. Can we thank the panel,
:31:19. > :31:29.please. Thank you very much. APPLAUSE
:31:30. > :31:33.Well, it is all very well discussing this here, but what's it like in the
:31:34. > :31:38.north of England and the Midlands, where many voted to leave and many
:31:39. > :31:42.of those who voted to leave were Labour voters. We've been travelling
:31:43. > :31:43.from the industrial city of Manchester to the holiday town of
:31:44. > :32:07.Blackpool. One month on from Brexit, what did
:32:08. > :32:16.the vote reveal about Britain? Our new Prime Minister talked about one
:32:17. > :32:23.nation, but are we? Even in Manchester, where 60% voted to
:32:24. > :32:30.remain, there are divisions. You've got all sorts of famous clients.
:32:31. > :32:36.Yeah, Lady GaGa, Tess Daly, Cheryl Cole, Amanda Holden. Turkish-born
:32:37. > :32:41.designer voted to leave. Her design team was split. Have you experienced
:32:42. > :32:49.a feeling that because you voted out, people are judging in some way?
:32:50. > :32:52.Of course, yeah. Yeah. In what way? It's all over Facebook, every time
:32:53. > :32:56.anyone would comment something, within our generation, I felt like
:32:57. > :33:01.it's embarrassing to say that you voted out. Because people would be
:33:02. > :33:06.like, oh, my God, I can't believe you've done this. It feels like
:33:07. > :33:10.we're divided at the moment, do you think we can heal? I think it all
:33:11. > :33:16.depends on the Brexit strategy and what happens now. And whether we can
:33:17. > :33:23.meet a mutual agreement that's going to work for everyone. The referendum
:33:24. > :33:27.revealed fault lines in the country, class, age and geographical divides.
:33:28. > :33:34.This is a city that voted in and yet we're going out. Yeah. People are
:33:35. > :33:39.worried, are they? Because I think, the politicians they didn't explain
:33:40. > :33:47.very well to the people what's the effect will be after the elections.
:33:48. > :33:52.One of the truths universally acknowledged during the campaign is
:33:53. > :34:02.that students mainly voted in. There's a bar down here that does
:34:03. > :34:09.student discounts. How did you vote? Remain. Remain. Also remain. Do you
:34:10. > :34:15.feel part of a metropolitan elite if you voted Remain, is that how you
:34:16. > :34:19.see yourself? The idea of 48% of the population being an elite and 66% of
:34:20. > :34:23.Scotland being an elite is ridiculous. The great majority of
:34:24. > :34:26.people who voted out, voted out because they felt they had no
:34:27. > :34:32.control. There's no other way to say what they wanted to say. Have you
:34:33. > :34:37.felt anger, upset, dismay? Dismissing who voted in a different
:34:38. > :34:41.way from you as racist or uneducated is essentially the wrong way to go.
:34:42. > :34:50.In the long run, it's going to do far more damage to the country than
:34:51. > :34:52.Brexit ever could. Manchester and Liverpool are exceptional.
:34:53. > :34:59.Everywhere else round here voted out. I'm leaving Manchester now. Off
:35:00. > :35:08.to visit some other parts of the North West.
:35:09. > :35:16.In Tory voting Ribble Valley 56% voted leave. We've just Intercepted
:35:17. > :35:22.you, John. You have. Where are you off to? For my paper. John used to
:35:23. > :35:30.run the village shop. He voted to Remain. And how do you feel about
:35:31. > :35:37.the result? Well, we've got used to it, haven't we? Inside the shop,
:35:38. > :35:41.Barry White was about to be outshone. I'm told that you're a
:35:42. > :35:46.good singer, have you got any songs? # So if it's raining
:35:47. > :35:53.# I've no regrets # It's not rain, rain you know - bit
:35:54. > :35:56.of A already Jolson that. Do you think it is raining because of the
:35:57. > :36:01.referendum or are you happy with the way we've gone? I'm happy with it. I
:36:02. > :36:09.am. We'll all stick together. If we all stick together and make a better
:36:10. > :36:15.future. These parts are known as the milk fields of Lancashire. Outside
:36:16. > :36:19.the local cheesemakers, I found a family divided. Mum voted in, her
:36:20. > :36:26.daughters were split. You're scared about what the vote will mean for
:36:27. > :36:33.Britain? I am, really, yeah. But as I say, I think Theresa May, of
:36:34. > :36:37.anybody, will possibly pull us through this. We were all so aghast,
:36:38. > :36:43.especially me and my friends. We were very upset I think and quite
:36:44. > :36:48.angry towards maybe the older generation. When I was speaking to
:36:49. > :36:52.Faye a few days after, it was more of a "Are you happy that this has
:36:53. > :37:04.happened? " How did you feel, what did you say? All my fault then! It's
:37:05. > :37:11.all my fault that one decision. You don't get more British than the
:37:12. > :37:17.seaside at Lytham St Annes. At the local tea shop, I came across Hilda
:37:18. > :37:22.and Malcom, both Out voters. Have you picked up a sort of sense, I
:37:23. > :37:26.don't know, a bad feeling between the people who voted out and the
:37:27. > :37:30.people who voted in? I think some people are really biassed and
:37:31. > :37:35.bigoted and can't always look for the other person's point of view,
:37:36. > :37:40.which is sad really, because we're all the same under the skin. We all
:37:41. > :37:44.have our own view points. And hopefully, we can all learn to live
:37:45. > :37:47.in peace together. What do you say to young people who say - you
:37:48. > :37:49.shouldn't have been allowed a vote because you're not going to be
:37:50. > :38:00.around to live with the consequences? I'd say, a vote's a
:38:01. > :38:11.vote for everybody. Leave it at that.
:38:12. > :38:19.I'm ending my trip in Blackpool, with its darker underbelly behind
:38:20. > :38:22.the promise of bright lights. 68% of people voted out in Labour
:38:23. > :38:31.Blackpool, the highest figure in the North West. At Amazing Greys, a soup
:38:32. > :38:42.kitchen, they offer 15,000 meals a year. Tell me why you think out was
:38:43. > :38:46.the right vote? Erm...... Because I think it will bring a lot more jobs
:38:47. > :38:50.back to Blackpool. You think as a result of the vote, things will get
:38:51. > :38:54.better for people like you here? Yeah. All the jobs are being taken
:38:55. > :38:58.before the season even starts. Is that by people who aren't from
:38:59. > :39:03.Blackpool, you think? There's a lot of people moving into Blackpool all
:39:04. > :39:07.the time, because they think it's like London, bright lights, big
:39:08. > :39:10.city. It's not. We've got a new Prime Minister. She's talking about
:39:11. > :39:15.one nation, she's appealing to people like you saying, I'm going to
:39:16. > :39:20.think about you, when I make a decision. A lot of people don't like
:39:21. > :39:30.her, but I think she might be pretty good actually. In this journey
:39:31. > :39:33.across the North West, I've lost count of the number of times people
:39:34. > :39:37.have said to me from either side of the debate that they voted with the
:39:38. > :39:44.future in mind. In a sense, that's the thing that unites us. But it's
:39:45. > :39:51.also something that could divide us, if the future doesn't pan out the
:39:52. > :39:56.way each of us hopes. I'm joined now by a leading
:39:57. > :40:01.Brexiteer, Daniel Hannon, one of the men who led the charge for Out. And
:40:02. > :40:06.the writer and commentator Paul Mason. What we've been hearing and
:40:07. > :40:09.Katie explored that in her film, is the number of divisions and splits,
:40:10. > :40:13.within families, old and young, across the country, Scottish,
:40:14. > :40:18.English, so forth. That's a lot to heal and you've got the troubles on
:40:19. > :40:23.the left. We're not going to heal some of these divisions. The number
:40:24. > :40:29.one unhealable division is Scotland. If I were Scottish I would vote to
:40:30. > :40:33.leave the United Kingdom and remain in the EU. We overemphasise the
:40:34. > :40:37.generational thing. Something that I lament is a view that common in a
:40:38. > :40:43.place like London, is that all of this was caused by ignorance,
:40:44. > :40:48.xenophobia etc. We cannot describe 52% of the population like that.
:40:49. > :40:51.Even the most visceral and voting with your heart Leavism was often
:40:52. > :40:56.very well informed. My side lost. We have to accept it. And then, we will
:40:57. > :41:01.unite around what is the proposal. What is the proposal we're able to
:41:02. > :41:06.get from Europe, what's the maximum amount of engagement with the single
:41:07. > :41:10.market we can get. That is the problem, a month on, nature abhors a
:41:11. > :41:15.vacuum, but we are no clear what that proposal may be. There may be
:41:16. > :41:18.bright, young civil servants trying to work that out. Can you not tell
:41:19. > :41:25.the people in here what Brexit actually looks like, because there
:41:26. > :41:29.is no prospeck Tuesday. Before the -- prospectus. Before the campaign
:41:30. > :41:32.we produced a million-page study on what we would like to do. The
:41:33. > :41:37.reality is it was a close vote. We don't have a mandate to roll over
:41:38. > :41:43.48%. That's as big a minority as you can have. You correctly say the UK
:41:44. > :41:47.is a partner of nations. Two of the four countries voted to remain in.
:41:48. > :41:50.We can't disregard that. The narrowness of the mandate will exert
:41:51. > :41:55.a measure of moderation, because we need to try and find a consensus
:41:56. > :41:59.that both sides can live with, even if without great enthusiasm. One of
:42:00. > :42:01.the big issues of course, is that you believe passionately that
:42:02. > :42:04.immigration wasn't an issue. Clearly your new Prime Minister does,
:42:05. > :42:08.because the thing that she said that nobody else had said was that the
:42:09. > :42:15.position of EU nationals in this country may be an issue and so
:42:16. > :42:18.therefore, that is now on the table. I didn't say immigration wasn't an
:42:19. > :42:24.issue. That is a division that may exist. People are concerned,
:42:25. > :42:31.families, friends. The BBC did its own poll about this. 21% of Leave
:42:32. > :42:36.voters expect a very drastic fall in numbers of EU migrants after Brexit.
:42:37. > :42:40.11% of all voters. This was not "the" top issue. People wanted
:42:41. > :42:43.control so that we're in charge of roughly who comes out and roughly in
:42:44. > :42:47.what numbers. That doesn't mean zero immigration. For very bright people
:42:48. > :42:52.in here, the word roughly is a nightmare. Because what does
:42:53. > :42:55."roughly" mean. You either have free movement of people or you don't.
:42:56. > :42:59.Paul, immigration was very much an issue in the north-east of England,
:43:00. > :43:03.Labour didn't get that one right. You may cede lots of votes to Ukip
:43:04. > :43:06.in the future because of that. What are you going to do about the issue
:43:07. > :43:12.of free movement? It's not a bit of it, it's either free movement or
:43:13. > :43:17.not? That's not true. What I would do and I'm strongly pushing this, is
:43:18. > :43:20.that we apply to be in the European Economic Area, to remain in the
:43:21. > :43:24.single market, and we say, because in it you can have an emergency
:43:25. > :43:28.brake on free movement. That's only a temporary variance. We say we'll
:43:29. > :43:32.address with microeconomic policies the things that people are worried
:43:33. > :43:35.about, give us time to do itment the challenge has to be to everybody in
:43:36. > :43:42.politics - what is wrong with that? Tell us what you think is wrong with
:43:43. > :43:46.that, since you all claim to be pro-migration, not anti-may grags,
:43:47. > :43:51.not racist -- antimigration, not racist, what is wrong with seeking
:43:52. > :43:55.temporary breathing space to get the consent for migration back. In terms
:43:56. > :43:59.of healing divides then, you said it was a very narrow vote. It was a
:44:00. > :44:03.vote to lever, but a narrow -- to leave, but a narrow vote. What do
:44:04. > :44:06.you think about that model, the Norway model? Is that something that
:44:07. > :44:10.is seriously being considered or not? First point, we're not going to
:44:11. > :44:14.copy any other country. Throughout the campaign people kept saying are
:44:15. > :44:18.you going to be like Norway, like Canada? The fact you put the
:44:19. > :44:24.question like that, shows that none of those countries has an identical
:44:25. > :44:28.model. Hang on, you haven't, nobody yet has come up with a model. What
:44:29. > :44:32.every country in Europe has in common, all of the non-EU countries,
:44:33. > :44:38.whether it's mass done ya, Isle of Man, all of them -- Macedonia, they
:44:39. > :44:41.all have access to the EU market without political union. We know the
:44:42. > :44:46.parameters within which these talks are going to happen. We want market
:44:47. > :44:49.access. . We want democratic control. There is going to be some
:44:50. > :44:52.free movement under this Conservative Government? No. Which
:44:53. > :44:57.is going to deal with Conservative MPs who are very concerned about
:44:58. > :45:01.this? We made one absolutely clear promise, we would take back control
:45:02. > :45:04.of immigration policy. That can mean only one thing, it means that no
:45:05. > :45:09.European Court will get to determine who can enter the UK or who can
:45:10. > :45:13.reside in the UK. Having taken back control, it will be for the people
:45:14. > :45:17.and their Parliamentarians to decide whether to have bilateral deals,
:45:18. > :45:21.whether to allow people to study, take up particular job offers. That
:45:22. > :45:29.will be for us to decide through our own democratic institutions. Paul,
:45:30. > :45:34.when I talk about nature abhors a vacuum, revised growth figures 1. 7
:45:35. > :45:38.next year, 1. 3, there may be a downturn that harms the very people
:45:39. > :45:42.who voted to lever. If there's an economic downturn it harms
:45:43. > :45:45.everybody. What I am worried about is that racist populism is out of
:45:46. > :45:50.the bottle. Whatever Nigel Farage says now he regrets using that
:45:51. > :45:55.image, we saw him earlier say that, racist populism is there in pubs, in
:45:56. > :46:02.clubs. If the economy now goes down the tubes, I never bought the whole
:46:03. > :46:06.Bank of England, treasurery kind of thing, I said this publicly, but it
:46:07. > :46:11.may happen and what we have to do now is work together, not only to
:46:12. > :46:13.reassure those EU migrants, but a big backlash against Muslims
:46:14. > :46:18.happened on the street after this, who had nothing to do with EU
:46:19. > :46:18.membership. We have to work to prevent this racist populism getting
:46:19. > :46:37.further out of the bottle. APPLAUSE. Just a quick word on that
:46:38. > :46:42.- on the question of arginine with EU nationals that are here already,
:46:43. > :46:46.is that a go or not? Personally, I made it clear all the way through
:46:47. > :46:51.that we should not put that in jeopardy. I think it is terribly
:46:52. > :46:55.unfair to all of the British Muslims who voted Leave, to suggest that
:46:56. > :47:00.they are lumped in with all of these racists. They were making a rational
:47:01. > :47:05.decision. When people here were asked, what will Brexit be? Brexit
:47:06. > :47:12.is there. Do you believe that you should put the Brexit plan to the
:47:13. > :47:17.people? Brexit means that we end the jurisdiction of EU courts over...
:47:18. > :47:21.They say there is not won at the moment, and there is not a model.
:47:22. > :47:26.There is not a plan. The question is, how much they can we implement
:47:27. > :47:30.if we want to carry the Remainers who have not accepted the result, as
:47:31. > :47:34.we saw earlier. And we want to try and bring with us as many as
:47:35. > :47:40.possible of that 48%, then we may have to stop short of a complete
:47:41. > :47:44.severance, and retain many of our political, economic and diplomatic
:47:45. > :47:53.connections with Europe, for the sake -- for the sake of keeping the
:47:54. > :47:57.union together. Over to Evan Davis. That is actually about it for this
:47:58. > :48:02.evening. The temperature in here tells us we are getting into the
:48:03. > :48:05.deep summer. Journalists call it the silly season. Maybe you think it has
:48:06. > :48:09.all been a bit mad over the non-silly season. Some of us are
:48:10. > :48:13.yearning for a period in which biggest story is a cat stuck up a
:48:14. > :48:17.tree. We will continue to scrutinise what happens over the next few
:48:18. > :48:23.months. Let me thank the Royal Geographical Society for hosting us
:48:24. > :48:27.come and also Intelligence Squared, for helping us to organise it. And
:48:28. > :48:31.above all, to our audience. To finish, we thought we would leave
:48:32. > :48:36.you with a short tribute to one of those careers ended, for now, since
:48:37. > :48:40.Brexit. So it is good night from us, and it is good night from them. I
:48:41. > :48:50.love this country and I feel honoured to have served it.
:48:51. > :48:58.# Bye-bye, love # Bye-bye, happiness
:48:59. > :49:07.# Hello, loneliness... That is not the outcome that I threw everything
:49:08. > :49:17.into campaigning for. No regrets. Mr Corbyn, how can you survive?
:49:18. > :49:29.# There goes my baby... Stepping aside. Resigned. Resigning today.
:49:30. > :49:33.# Bye-bye, sweet caress... What I am saying today is, I want my life
:49:34. > :49:43.back. And it begins right now. Thank you.
:49:44. > :49:46.It sparked the greatest transformation in British history.
:49:47. > :49:55.It had nothing like the impact of the railways.
:49:56. > :50:00.Discover how the steam revolution shaped the way we live today.