:00:00. > :00:07.Imagine accident emergency closed at night?
:00:08. > :00:09.Well, soon it might be a reality as hospitals struggle
:00:10. > :00:11.with lack of staff, money shortages, and increasing
:00:12. > :00:18.Lord Robert Winston and junior doctor Rachel Clark -
:00:19. > :00:24.We have an exclusive interview with the Syrian rebels holding
:00:25. > :00:26.the remains of the Russian helicopter crew shot
:00:27. > :00:32.The woman who brought the story of Adnan Syed to Serial,
:00:33. > :00:41.And this was the moment Michael Phelps won his 21st Olympic Gold.
:00:42. > :00:44.Our own Olympic great Duncan Goodhew is here to analyse the phenomenal
:00:45. > :01:04.The pressure on the NHS in England has never been greater,
:01:05. > :01:07.and perhaps the most acute pressure is on accident emergency.
:01:08. > :01:09.As an indicator of the myriad problems at A, a hospital
:01:10. > :01:12.in Lincolnshire warned today it may have to close at night, saying it
:01:13. > :01:20.Add to that the volume of traffic at A as patients substitute it
:01:21. > :01:22.for their GP surgery, and the rising demands
:01:23. > :01:25.Can the NHS in England survive without radical surgery?
:01:26. > :01:28.The financial crisis is such that the government says NHS England
:01:29. > :01:33.must save ?22 billion a year for the next five years.
:01:34. > :01:52.The English NHS is a huge old machine, which has
:01:53. > :02:00.Short, medium and long-term forces are all running against it.
:02:01. > :02:04.An A might be cut in Lincolnshire because of recruiting trouble,
:02:05. > :02:11.and a stark warning today came from a Royal College.
:02:12. > :02:12.We are seeing deteriorating waiting times.
:02:13. > :02:15.My own hospital is actually doing reasonably well,
:02:16. > :02:18.but many trusts in the country are noticing that there
:02:19. > :02:20.are deteriorating waiting times both for elective surgery,
:02:21. > :02:24.getting treatment within the appropriate time.
:02:25. > :02:27.And we are seeing increasing pressure upon A
:02:28. > :02:31.If you only looked at one graph to understand the NHS in England,
:02:32. > :02:36.This first line here shows you the change in the amount
:02:37. > :02:38.of money that we have paid to hospitals per procedure
:02:39. > :02:49.Something for which we would have paid hospitals ?100 back in 2009-10,
:02:50. > :02:56.The idea of that squeeze was that it would force hospitals to become
:02:57. > :03:02.So what happens to the costs faced by hospitals per procedure?
:03:03. > :03:04.Well, you can see from this line, first of all,
:03:05. > :03:09.But since 2011-12, hospitals simply haven't kept pace
:03:10. > :03:17.The gap between those two lines, that's the NHS's financial problem.
:03:18. > :03:20.It means that hospitals are spending more per operation
:03:21. > :03:24.So to solve the NHS's financial crisis, we have
:03:25. > :03:30.Either cut hospitals' costs, and that means lowering
:03:31. > :03:33.the top line even further, or putting more money in,
:03:34. > :03:39.The short-term response to that medium-term problem is to encourage
:03:40. > :03:42.hospitals to squeeze pay bills in particular.
:03:43. > :03:44.But that means the financial squeeze is exacerbating some long-standing
:03:45. > :03:53.We've had a history of some small, particularly rural hospitals,
:03:54. > :03:56.having trouble getting doctors to come and work there.
:03:57. > :03:59.And that seems to be a problem across the public sector in other
:04:00. > :04:02.The second issue is that some specialities are not
:04:03. > :04:10.It's partly a combination of the very high pressure of the job
:04:11. > :04:13.and the fact that we have, frankly, not trained enough and people do not
:04:14. > :04:16.want to go into those training posts in the numbers that we need.
:04:17. > :04:20.You can see why NHS managers have been so worried that the Brexit vote
:04:21. > :04:23.might make it harder for them to recruit abroad.
:04:24. > :04:26.Remember, the fall in sterling will be felt most keenly by people
:04:27. > :04:29.who plan their lives in other currencies.
:04:30. > :04:31.These are times historians will pore over,
:04:32. > :04:39.Let's get two medical perspectives on this now.
:04:40. > :04:42.expert and Labour peer, the reproductive health
:04:43. > :04:51.and from Rachel Clarke - a junior doctor who has worked in A
:04:52. > :04:58.Lord Winston first, the financial gap is a given. Does it have to be
:04:59. > :05:04.some radical change? I think one of the first things the government has
:05:05. > :05:09.to think about is, how is it to manage to dis- incentivise one of
:05:10. > :05:12.the most altruistic, most well-qualified, one of the most
:05:13. > :05:15.intelligent workforces in the country? From the age of 16 these
:05:16. > :05:18.people have wanted to go to the health service and now they want to
:05:19. > :05:25.leave it early. They have been trained at a very high level at a
:05:26. > :05:28.great cost. Now one of the key issues with A, general
:05:29. > :05:32.practitioners are wanting to leave because they are so dis-
:05:33. > :05:37.incentivised because of the way they restructured the health service with
:05:38. > :05:42.the disastrous 2012 act. Rachel, as somebody who worked in A a year
:05:43. > :05:49.ago, tell me the good things and bad things. Before you start your first
:05:50. > :05:55.A job, people say to you, it's a battle ground, and it is. There is
:05:56. > :06:00.blood and gore and drunks and abuse. But none of that actually makes it
:06:01. > :06:03.bad, necessarily. It makes it an environment where you can strive to
:06:04. > :06:08.be the best doctor you can, you can save lives everyday. It could be
:06:09. > :06:13.everything you want as a medical career. But, the brutal truth of the
:06:14. > :06:19.matter is, in every A wrote there are among junior doctors. But there
:06:20. > :06:24.are no restrictions on the number of patients coming in so the doctors
:06:25. > :06:29.left are having to do the jobs of two or more doctors. And that is
:06:30. > :06:33.unbearable. You literally might have somebody in the first bed who has
:06:34. > :06:37.just had a life threatening heart attack and the second bed might have
:06:38. > :06:41.somebody with a stroke. Both lives are in your hands and how do you
:06:42. > :06:44.look after them both? The Lincolnshire hospital is thinking of
:06:45. > :06:49.closing night, isn't that unthinkable? It's absolutely
:06:50. > :06:52.catastrophic. It means millions of people in that environment will
:06:53. > :06:57.suddenly be denied emergency care and they will go to other A,
:06:58. > :07:02.swamping those who probably also have gaps in their rotors. The idea
:07:03. > :07:05.this is happening up and down the country, and the Health Secretary is
:07:06. > :07:12.turning a blind eye to it, he's not being upfront about it. What do you
:07:13. > :07:16.think might be done to alleviate the situation? One of the things we
:07:17. > :07:20.should not do is to have a ridiculous idea meant with junior
:07:21. > :07:26.hospital doctors over working at weekends when we are closing
:07:27. > :07:30.hospitals at night-time. That shows the kind of thinking from the
:07:31. > :07:33.Secretary of State. First of all, we should tell the truth about what
:07:34. > :07:37.happens at the weekends and wider deaths he records isn't related to
:07:38. > :07:42.staffing. It's very important for the health service not to be a
:07:43. > :07:45.political football. We are in a situation where the Tory party is
:07:46. > :07:51.unopposed by a weak opposition and that doesn't help. Looking at you
:07:52. > :07:57.with your medical hat on, what do you think can be done, particularly
:07:58. > :08:01.in A? For example, and this might be unpopular, our patients part of
:08:02. > :08:06.the problem? You have to go to primary care and see how it has been
:08:07. > :08:10.delivered. At the moment most general practitioners are totally
:08:11. > :08:13.dissatisfied because they are running the health service as
:08:14. > :08:18.commissioners instead of looking after the health service. What would
:08:19. > :08:22.you do in A, bring in privatisation? You could bring in
:08:23. > :08:27.private practice, and I speak as a member of the Labour Party, we could
:08:28. > :08:30.have private practice but make sure it's inside the health service or
:08:31. > :08:35.the profit goes to the health service and not to private providers
:08:36. > :08:39.who could tender outside. You might have in A, and you would go there,
:08:40. > :08:45.but if you can afford to pay you would go faster? It wouldn't help
:08:46. > :08:48.A As somebody who works in A still, I can offer two other
:08:49. > :08:53.suggestions. The first is that you have to be honest and candid about
:08:54. > :08:58.the lack of doctors and you have to recruit more. Jeremy Hunt and his
:08:59. > :09:03.government don't want to do that because it costs money. But if we
:09:04. > :09:10.don't do that we deny the population a safe standard of care. Secondly,
:09:11. > :09:15.and your film doesn't make clear, what the statistics don't point out,
:09:16. > :09:19.year-on-year since 2010, the share of GDP this government spends on
:09:20. > :09:27.health has gone down. It's now at 6.7%, almost the lowest in Europe.
:09:28. > :09:33.Let's have practical solutions. How do you educate patients about going
:09:34. > :09:36.to A and is not going to it in the first instance? You have to provide
:09:37. > :09:41.primary care with the general practitioners, and if the GPs are
:09:42. > :09:48.not there, they have to go to A That's what happens at the moment. I
:09:49. > :09:52.routinely see patients who are life threatening me sick, at death's
:09:53. > :09:57.door, and then people who have had a tummy ache for 30 years. Of course
:09:58. > :10:00.that end of the extreme shouldn't be there, but if you are a worried
:10:01. > :10:06.mother told by a GP receptionist that it will be three weeks before
:10:07. > :10:10.you get your child to a GP, what will you do? The crisis isn't just
:10:11. > :10:15.in A, it's in general practitioners as well. In some GP
:10:16. > :10:21.training rotors there are 50% gaps. There are nowhere for patients to
:10:22. > :10:24.go. If the government will not be honest, will not fulfil their duty
:10:25. > :10:29.of candour with the electorate to come clean about that, then they are
:10:30. > :10:36.being dangerous and threatening and endangering patients. Once before,
:10:37. > :10:42.Gordon Brown put a penny on national insurance, and said it could be for
:10:43. > :10:45.the NHS. Is it time to hypothesise taxes for the NHS? I don't think
:10:46. > :10:49.that's the right way to do it at all. Very few people who work in
:10:50. > :10:54.health service believe that's the answer. We have done is create a
:10:55. > :11:00.very unwieldy structure. Your film focuses on so many different
:11:01. > :11:05.problems. Let me put it to you, the NHS is not fit for purpose and that
:11:06. > :11:09.isn't just do with money, it's the way we deliver it. And it's also
:11:10. > :11:17.with how we encourage staff to come into it. We make it difficult to
:11:18. > :11:19.recruit staff, we don't even provide work experience. They're all sorts
:11:20. > :11:24.of things at every level that haven't been thought through. Why is
:11:25. > :11:27.it impossible to have this kind of debate? Because we have made the
:11:28. > :11:31.health service into a political football. As Rachel says, we are not
:11:32. > :11:38.having an honest debate and until we do it will be a major problem. I
:11:39. > :11:41.would say one of the problems is, Sir Robert Francis, who investigated
:11:42. > :11:45.the horrors of mid Staffordshire said that junior doctors were the
:11:46. > :11:48.eyes and ears of the health service, and we are, we see things crumbling
:11:49. > :11:52.around us at the moment and we are packed with solutions, we know how
:11:53. > :11:57.to do things differently. The government could listen to us, but
:11:58. > :12:01.instead they impose policies from on high, such as the notorious
:12:02. > :12:04.seven-day NHS, and that is a disastrous way to do things.
:12:05. > :12:07.When the Syrian opposition shot down a Russian military helicopter over
:12:08. > :12:10.Idlib province ten days ago, killing five people, it was the largest
:12:11. > :12:12.single loss of Russian life since their involvement in support
:12:13. > :12:17.The rebels are now trying to barter the bodies and the remains,
:12:18. > :12:19.in exchange for opposition prisoners.
:12:20. > :12:23.Our Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban has spoken exclusively to the rebels
:12:24. > :12:25.who have the bodies, and reports on how negotiations are impacting
:12:26. > :12:31.on the Erdogan-Putin summit in St Petersburg.
:12:32. > :12:35.On the last day of July a Russian helicopter returning from a mission
:12:36. > :12:39.into Aleppo was shot down by Syrian rebels.
:12:40. > :12:47.As jubilant locals picked over the wreckage,
:12:48. > :12:49.the bodies of two crew members were defiled.
:12:50. > :12:52.And the stage was set for a secret negotiation that shows how
:12:53. > :12:56.the warring parties would use anything or anyone in their cars.
:12:57. > :12:58.the warring parties would use anything or anyone in their cause.
:12:59. > :13:00.This afternoon, we contacted the prisoners committee
:13:01. > :13:03.of the Syrian resistance that says it is now holding the dead crew
:13:04. > :13:10.and wants concessions before returning the remains.
:13:11. > :13:12.TRANSLATION: Any further details can be negotiated directly
:13:13. > :13:22.Hence we cannot discuss the details now.
:13:23. > :13:25.The committee sent us these images as proof that it holds
:13:26. > :13:28.Three crewmen have been identified by Russian
:13:29. > :13:34.journalists as Oleg Shelamov, Roman Pavlov and Pavlo Shirahov.
:13:35. > :13:37.Who the other two were and whether one of them is the woman
:13:38. > :13:48.The Syrians told us three bodies were burned beyond recognition.
:13:49. > :13:52.But in a conflict where so many have died without trace,
:13:53. > :13:54.and the Russians have been accused of merciless bombing,
:13:55. > :13:58.is getting the bodies back even a priority?
:13:59. > :14:01.It is very important to get these bodies back because we
:14:02. > :14:20.And this is message for all the people around the world.
:14:21. > :14:21.As Syrians, we're looking to respect others.
:14:22. > :14:25.The issue of the pilots has been raised on the margins of this week's
:14:26. > :14:28.The initial rebel demand that the Syrian government release
:14:29. > :14:31.all 140,000 prisoners it holds is now giving way to a more
:14:32. > :14:35.realistic discussion about possible humanitarian access.
:14:36. > :14:37.The idea being that Russia might deliver the Assad government
:14:38. > :14:47.TRANSLATION: We welcome any international mediation,
:14:48. > :14:50.especially from the Turkish government, because they have stood
:14:51. > :14:56.We are very flexible, open to other possibilities,
:14:57. > :14:59.and we shall use all available methods to release the prisoners
:15:00. > :15:11.It is in trying to help broker a deal that Anasol Shami has
:15:12. > :15:16.gone to St Petersburg this week, and believes it could happen.
:15:17. > :15:23.Like the prisoners, which are not killers, you understand me?
:15:24. > :15:28.Some prisoners, they are political prisoners.
:15:29. > :15:30.With heavy fighting going on around Aleppo, neither side
:15:31. > :15:37.But the talks over the pilots' remains reveal how channels
:15:38. > :15:44.between Syrians remain open when it is in their mutual interest.
:15:45. > :15:47.And now to Newsnight's much-laurelled Olympics coverage,
:15:48. > :15:50.brought to you from a storied sofa not a million miles from here.
:15:51. > :15:52.In a case of life imitating art, the diving pool
:15:53. > :16:06.Stephen Smith's bathtub has been that colour for days.
:16:07. > :16:08.Throne of Games, analysis as clear as a Russian
:16:09. > :16:15.When you're preparing for an event of this size,
:16:16. > :16:20.it all comes down to two words - professionalism.
:16:21. > :16:23.The top athletes will tell you, if you can drag yourself out
:16:24. > :16:26.of bed even when it's the last thing you want to do,
:16:27. > :16:48.You know, it came as a horrifying surprise to me that it wasn't
:16:49. > :16:54.Are they allowed to punch each other?
:16:55. > :16:58.I think that is frowned on technically.
:16:59. > :17:00.The number of women's teams, British women's teams that
:17:01. > :17:01.are incomparably better, internationally speaking,
:17:02. > :17:11.Women are just better at stuff.
:17:12. > :17:26.And everybody goes, do women even box?
:17:27. > :17:28.Well, surely our friend Nicola Adams has changed perceptions there.
:17:29. > :17:34.She's one of the faces of Team GB, isn't she?
:17:35. > :17:37.Do you know what, judo, it looks like two kids fighting
:17:38. > :17:40.It looks like one of them has some Opal Fruits
:17:41. > :17:42.and the other one's like, gimme an Opal Fruit!
:17:43. > :17:46.I think that would give it some extra zing.
:17:47. > :17:49.We need to talk about the colour of the pool because...
:17:50. > :17:51.Did the guy forget to go out with the chlorine,
:17:52. > :17:57.is that what it is, the pool boy didn't show up?
:17:58. > :18:00.I would like to know when they have to start synchronising.
:18:01. > :18:03.Is it when they come out of the loo, when they open the door?
:18:04. > :18:06.I guess their outfits have to be the same.
:18:07. > :18:08.I mean, do they synchronise from the morning just
:18:09. > :18:13.What do you think would be the easiest
:18:14. > :18:24.Yeah, because the difference, the tolerances between competent
:18:25. > :18:36.The number 16 seed causing a major potential shock.
:18:37. > :18:39.Hang on a sec, I thought the other one just stabbed her.
:18:40. > :18:53.It will be interesting to see where she is...
:18:54. > :19:07.You've been watching Throne of Games.
:19:08. > :19:12.Trust me, no-one's getting paid more than the Prime Minister for this.
:19:13. > :19:19.Now - we thought we'd take a moment to talk about possibly the greatest
:19:20. > :19:21.Olympian of all time: the American swimmer Michael Phelps.
:19:22. > :19:26.More than one hundred countries have won fewer gold medals
:19:27. > :19:34.Sixteen years after becoming an Olympian -
:19:35. > :19:37.and ten years older than the age at which most swimmers peak,
:19:38. > :19:40.he took gold again last night for the 200m butterfly.
:19:41. > :19:44.Duncan Goodhew knows what it feels like to win gold -
:19:45. > :19:46.he triumphed in the 100 metres breaststroke in the
:19:47. > :19:59.Have you been glued to the set? I have, and I only won one gold medal,
:20:00. > :20:02.and when you look at what Michael Phelps is done, it is extraordinary.
:20:03. > :20:07.His achievements are almost superhuman. I grew up with Mark
:20:08. > :20:12.Spitz and we thought, how can anybody win more than nine gold
:20:13. > :20:17.medals, seven in one games? And now enter Michael Phelps. He seems to
:20:18. > :20:25.have broken through on so many different levels. And if you just
:20:26. > :20:30.play your mind back, you have one gold medal, the heats, the
:20:31. > :20:34.semifinals and finals. But if you want to get two, then they are going
:20:35. > :20:40.on in sequence, so you were going back to back. So how do you keep
:20:41. > :20:44.emotionally up, and not tire of it? When you are looking at him,
:20:45. > :20:47.ordinary think about him? It is just extraordinary. I interviewed him for
:20:48. > :20:52.the Financial Times when he was just breaking through, when he was 17
:20:53. > :20:58.years old. Both him and his coach were convinced that one gold medal
:20:59. > :21:05.would satisfy. One gold metal would satisfy most people! -- gold medal.
:21:06. > :21:09.For him, he knew he was talented and it was reflected in everybody around
:21:10. > :21:14.him. And he had that enormous support. Physically, he has changed
:21:15. > :21:21.massively in that time. It has been a real journey. He has changed his
:21:22. > :21:25.shape. Some archaeologists have found that gladiators grew longer
:21:26. > :21:28.arms. I think with Michael Phelps, he has grown more like a fish by the
:21:29. > :21:38.moment. He is extraordinary in the water. And he is not exactly Mr
:21:39. > :21:44.super healthy. He used to eat 10,000 calories a day. You have to swim
:21:45. > :21:47.that much. When you talk to Olympic athletes, they all accept that
:21:48. > :21:51.swimming is the most demanding of all sports. I think it is because
:21:52. > :21:57.you are lying down, you can wrap up the engine and keep going for
:21:58. > :22:02.longer. If you are running, your body is pounded, and you have to get
:22:03. > :22:07.the blood up through your legs. But he has obviously calibrated what he
:22:08. > :22:12.is doing as he is getting older. At 31, he is way beyond the age that
:22:13. > :22:16.most athletes and swimmers peak. How is he changing it? What is the game
:22:17. > :22:20.plan? For him he was obviously really upset to lose in the 200
:22:21. > :22:26.metre butterfly in London and that really rankles. Now he has got a
:22:27. > :22:32.young child and he has settled down a bit. From what I understand of his
:22:33. > :22:36.attitude, it has changed things massively over the last couple of
:22:37. > :22:42.years. And we are seeing the results of that. But also what he is doing,
:22:43. > :22:49.he is going for 100 metres and 200 metres, so it is, dare I say it, a
:22:50. > :22:57.quick blast without having to deal with the stamina. I am very much for
:22:58. > :23:03.the taps. Seriously, I think you have to look at him as the man. Can
:23:04. > :23:06.anybody beat this? It is going to be tough. But they did beat Mark Spitz.
:23:07. > :23:13.The relays make the difference for him. As an American, he has nine
:23:14. > :23:18.gold medals on the relay. Unless it is another very strong country, to
:23:19. > :23:22.win those kind of numbers again will be difficult. But never say
:23:23. > :23:23.impossible because another Michael Phelps will probably come along.
:23:24. > :23:25.Thank you very much indeed. Serial is the most popular
:23:26. > :23:27.and downloaded podcast of all time. It reinvented story telling
:23:28. > :23:29.for a new generation. The true story of the US murder
:23:30. > :23:33.conviction of seventeen year old Adnan Syed reached more
:23:34. > :23:35.than 500 million international Now lawyer and family
:23:36. > :23:39.friend Rabia Chaudry, who brought the story to Serial,
:23:40. > :23:41.and has worked to overturn his conviction, has written
:23:42. > :23:52.about the phenomenon. In case you didn't tune in,
:23:53. > :23:57.journalist Sarah Koenig explored the case of Adnan Syed,
:23:58. > :24:00.a 17-year-old American high school student of Pakistani
:24:01. > :24:02.origin who was convicted of murdering his ex-girlfriend,
:24:03. > :24:13.Hai Min Lee, in 1999. This is a global cell link,
:24:14. > :24:16.prepaid calls from... ..an inmate at Maryland Correctional
:24:17. > :24:22.Facility. He was sentenced to
:24:23. > :24:26.life plus 30 years. The case rested on a 21 minute
:24:27. > :24:31.window, the time frame in which the prosecution alleges
:24:32. > :24:33.Adnan left school and But the podcast raised a number
:24:34. > :24:37.of questions about whether it was In particular, a key witness
:24:38. > :24:41.who could have served as an alibi And crucial cell phone evidence
:24:42. > :24:48.that was used to locate Adnan Syed at the scene of the murder
:24:49. > :24:51.was unreliable and not cross In June this year,
:24:52. > :24:59.a judge ordered a retrial. The world now waits
:25:00. > :25:01.for the next chapter of this I feel like I want to shoot myself
:25:02. > :25:12.if I hear someone else say, I don't think you did it
:25:13. > :25:15.because you're a nice guy. But I have heard people say that
:25:16. > :25:17.to me over the years, I would love them to say,
:25:18. > :25:22.I don't think you did it because I looked at the case and it
:25:23. > :25:25.looks kind of flimsy. Earlier, I spoke to lawyer
:25:26. > :25:27.Rabia Chaudry, a family friend and campaigner for the innocence
:25:28. > :25:30.of Adnan Syed, about her new book on the case which comes
:25:31. > :25:32.out in the UK tomorrow. I began by asking her
:25:33. > :25:46.about the impact Serial Cereal had a tremendous impact. We
:25:47. > :25:51.never would have gotten this far without the work they did, the
:25:52. > :25:56.storytelling they did. Without it, we would still be at a dead-end in
:25:57. > :26:00.the case. And what was the contribution made by the listeners,
:26:01. > :26:06.as they became more engrossed in the podcast? So many of the listeners
:26:07. > :26:09.did not just look at this as entertainment, they came out and
:26:10. > :26:13.supported us. We have raised hundreds of thousands of dollars
:26:14. > :26:17.because of listener donations. They have written thousands of letters to
:26:18. > :26:21.Adnan Syed and they followed the story after Serial. They wanted to
:26:22. > :26:25.know what else there was. They listened to other podcasts and
:26:26. > :26:30.continued to follow the case. And criminal investigators listened to
:26:31. > :26:33.the podcast as well. Yes, a lot of experts have come forward and
:26:34. > :26:40.offered their services. Obviously, my colleagues at Undisclosed our two
:26:41. > :26:45.lawyers who began investigating on their own. Unlike them, many other
:26:46. > :26:49.volunteers came forward and helped us continue the investigation. So
:26:50. > :26:54.the journalists working on Serial did not take a stand. They did not
:26:55. > :27:00.say innocent or guilty. What do you make of that? I cannot compel
:27:01. > :27:05.anybody to come to some kind of conclusion. Obviously my hope was
:27:06. > :27:09.that this would be somebody who would become an advocate for Adnan
:27:10. > :27:13.Syed, who would feel convinced and follow the story to that end, and
:27:14. > :27:17.look for the evidence to help exonerate him, feeling that he was
:27:18. > :27:22.innocent. When that did not happen, it is what it is. You do the best
:27:23. > :27:25.you can. And I think we have. The fact that Sarah Kane was not able to
:27:26. > :27:34.reach a conclusion is fine because many other people have taken up the
:27:35. > :27:39.case. -- Sira Koenig. In a sense, isn't it better that Serial did not
:27:40. > :27:42.take a stand because it allowed the audience to becoming grassed and
:27:43. > :27:46.engaged, and the position of the journalist was not clear. Is that
:27:47. > :27:54.not a better position to be an? Does that not hold more listeners? I
:27:55. > :28:00.think part of the draw of Serial was the sustained ambiguity. The mystery
:28:01. > :28:02.is what kept people there. But that does not necessarily mean...
:28:03. > :28:11.Undisclosed, the podcast we followed up with, it has more than 90 million
:28:12. > :28:16.listeneds. We have a clear stands. -- listens. I am not a journalist
:28:17. > :28:20.and I do not know what it means to have journalistic standards. Does it
:28:21. > :28:22.mean you have to always be neutral? I thought investigative journalism
:28:23. > :28:26.meant that sometimes you take a stand. I do not think the story
:28:27. > :28:30.would have been hurt if at the end they decided they would take a stand
:28:31. > :28:34.knowing what they know now. Very clearly in the book you made it
:28:35. > :28:38.clear that you have a low opinion of the state often and how they handle
:28:39. > :28:41.trials and there are many thousands of miscarriages of justice. Is there
:28:42. > :28:46.a danger that by focusing on this one, not for yourself personally but
:28:47. > :28:51.programmes focusing on one, it allows people to not think about the
:28:52. > :28:56.bigger picture? Actually, I think that is a great lesson from Serial,
:28:57. > :29:00.that people become interested in issues when there is a human story.
:29:01. > :29:04.When you talk about people and you say that there is systematic racism,
:29:05. > :29:09.they will say, OK, fine, too bad. But when you sell them -- tell them
:29:10. > :29:14.about a person, they are able to understand the issue and how it
:29:15. > :29:17.affects somebody. What has happened, hundreds of people have reached out
:29:18. > :29:21.to say that because of Adnan Syed's story, we were able to understand
:29:22. > :29:27.things we did not understand, how the criminal justice system works.
:29:28. > :29:32.We understand how bad lawyering can ruin a person's life. We understand
:29:33. > :29:37.bigotry. They are able to understand issues that otherwise might become
:29:38. > :29:43.intangible. I know you spoke with him recently. How is he now? He is
:29:44. > :29:47.doing well. We spoke about a week ago and ever since the new ruling in
:29:48. > :29:53.which his conviction was vacated, he has been positive. We expected the
:29:54. > :29:55.state to appeal it but he is patient and he has been patient for a long
:29:56. > :30:00.time. Thank you very much indeed.