:00:09. > :00:27.It is a Newsnight studio ram packed with guests this evening.
:00:28. > :00:35.It is a Newsnight studio ram packed Vergini Coast they they have the
:00:36. > :00:40.footage to prove otherwise. -- Virgin East Coast. Can we get to the
:00:41. > :00:45.bottom of it. Also tonight... Rio de Janeiro has had a good couple of
:00:46. > :00:47.weeks, but is it now facing its biggest embarrassment? Botching the
:00:48. > :00:51.organisation of the Paralympic Games. It's desperately, desperately
:00:52. > :00:56.disappointing, not least for the athletes who are having to compete
:00:57. > :00:58.in two weeks in real adversity. The man in charge of the International
:00:59. > :01:02.Paralympic Association will tell us whether he has hopes of fears for
:01:03. > :01:07.the Games this year. And from Olympic gold to Olympic gloom, how
:01:08. > :01:15.the athletes had to come down after coming home.
:01:16. > :01:20.You've got to hand it to Rio that when it came to the Olympics,
:01:21. > :01:25.Whatever the worries, the mishaps, the less
:01:26. > :01:27.than crowded stadiums, the Games were actually great.
:01:28. > :01:30.And in a city that doesn't have the money of London
:01:31. > :01:38.or the dictatorial tendencies of Beijing, they showed
:01:39. > :01:41.you can still host a successful Olympics and be normal.
:01:42. > :01:44.But, when it comes to the Paralympics, Rio does not look
:01:45. > :01:47.Ticket sales are appalling, budget cuts are biting,
:01:48. > :01:49.some teams won't make it, having not been sent
:01:50. > :01:55.So how much of setback will these Games be, from the successful
:01:56. > :02:12.It's been a day of beaming smiles and flashing medals, as
:02:13. > :02:18.While success in Rio helped overshadow criticism
:02:19. > :02:22.of how the Games were run, there are now concerns over the fate
:02:23. > :02:30.Problems like green swimming pools have led to money intended
:02:31. > :02:33.for the Paralympics being spent on the Olympics instead,
:02:34. > :02:40.Whilst dismal ticket sales could mean even more empty seats.
:02:41. > :02:45.It's almost become an Olympic tradition to question how ready
:02:46. > :02:49.a host nation is before the Games begin, but this does feel like it's
:02:50. > :02:55.Just the other week, the head of the International Paralympic
:02:56. > :02:58.Committee said that the Games have never faced circumstances like these
:02:59. > :03:03.The Paralympic cycling team is training here in Newport.
:03:04. > :03:06.They are focusing on winning medals, but the controversies
:03:07. > :03:11.Is there a disappointment about the ticket sales?
:03:12. > :03:24.That's clearly a lot of empty seats and it would be nice
:03:25. > :03:26.if they were filled, not just from the athletes'
:03:27. > :03:29.perspective and the spectators' perspective and the whole
:03:30. > :03:31.atmosphere, but also from the funding perspective
:03:32. > :03:34.and just the exposure to the sport and the atmosphere in general.
:03:35. > :03:37.The Paralympics are meant to be run in line and we always
:03:38. > :03:41.because of the way the calendar works.
:03:42. > :03:45.But the way they treat us definitely isn't the same, is it?
:03:46. > :03:52.According to official documents, the Brazilian authorities had
:03:53. > :03:55.initially hoped to raise $170 million for the Paralympics.
:03:56. > :04:02.But we've been told they are now nowhere near the amount they need.
:04:03. > :04:05.One reason is just 12% of tickets have been sold,
:04:06. > :04:08.compared to 92% of Olympic tickets, although even then
:04:09. > :04:15.There are also just 28 Paralympic sponsors,
:04:16. > :04:23.As a result, they've decided to make cuts to the workforce,
:04:24. > :04:26.cuts to transport services for athletes and also changes
:04:27. > :04:28.to the venues of some events, allowing the closure of one
:04:29. > :04:34.London's 2012 Paralympic Games were hailed as being
:04:35. > :04:40.The former Paralympic athlete who helped deliver them says that
:04:41. > :04:45.legacy looks like it's in tatters now.
:04:46. > :04:52.This is a leap into Paralympic prehistory.
:04:53. > :04:56.The economic and political backdrop are certainly very different
:04:57. > :04:58.to when Rio won the bid, but this doesn't have so much
:04:59. > :05:06.to do with the economics, this has to do with cannibalisation
:05:07. > :05:09.of the Paralympic budget to bail out and backfill Olympic elements that
:05:10. > :05:11.didn't need to go wrong in the first place.
:05:12. > :05:13.There has been a disrespect, a misunderstanding,
:05:14. > :05:16.a lack of understanding for the Paralympic Games,
:05:17. > :05:19.for the potential and for the impact that could have made
:05:20. > :05:29.A legacy for the 45 million disabled people in Brazil could make a
:05:30. > :05:34.difference. Many still struggle with being accepted and feeling included.
:05:35. > :05:37.TRANSLATION: I was disappointed but not surprised that the lack of
:05:38. > :05:40.funding, because historically, disabled people have been left
:05:41. > :05:44.behind in this city. Having said that, there have now been some
:05:45. > :05:49.improvements to public transport here because of the Games. But
:05:50. > :05:53.despite everything, Rio is what Paralympic athletes have spent years
:05:54. > :05:57.training for. And all the athletes we spoke to were clear about the
:05:58. > :06:01.need to make the most of the Games. People will organise it or they
:06:02. > :06:06.won't, they will sort it or they went, and we're going to have to
:06:07. > :06:10.kind of deal with it as it happens. Whereas the performance of riding a
:06:11. > :06:13.bike as fast as we can, that is totally within our control, so we
:06:14. > :06:17.just have to do the best we can and make sure we get the best
:06:18. > :06:20.performances out of ourselves. Delays to travel grants paid out by
:06:21. > :06:24.Brazilian authorities had raised concerns that some countries
:06:25. > :06:28.wouldn't even be be able to afford to come to Rio. It looks like it
:06:29. > :06:30.won't come to that, but many are seeing these Games as a missed
:06:31. > :06:35.opportunity. Tim Hollingsworth is
:06:36. > :06:36.the Chief Executive of the British Paralympic
:06:37. > :06:43.Association. It seems that all the teams are
:06:44. > :06:48.going? That is the case now. It is very late news but that travelled
:06:49. > :06:51.ground that was referenced that the organising committee makes available
:06:52. > :06:55.to every nation, including us, has got enough certainty for every
:06:56. > :06:59.nation to confirm that they are coming. That is very important, we
:07:00. > :07:03.wouldn't want any athlete who is qualified to go not going. Argue
:07:04. > :07:07.basically optimistic about these Games? Is it just the case that the
:07:08. > :07:11.Brazilians get it together late on, or are you thinking this is going to
:07:12. > :07:16.be like we heard in the piece, this is prehistory for the Paralympics?
:07:17. > :07:19.Chris Holmes had more than a little hand in London 2012 and knows very
:07:20. > :07:23.much of what he speaks and he is right in a sense that to weeks out,
:07:24. > :07:26.we shouldn't be speaking about this, we should have had the Paralympic
:07:27. > :07:31.Games ready and organised in the way that the authorities in Brazil
:07:32. > :07:34.promised two years -- seven years ago when they won the bid. I guess
:07:35. > :07:38.Brazil is in a different place economically now than it was then,
:07:39. > :07:42.but we have seen circumstances arise to call into question a lot of the
:07:43. > :07:48.traditional services and everything you would expect. Like what
:07:49. > :07:52.services? We are taking about 260 athletes to Rio, our biggest ever
:07:53. > :07:55.away. A lot of things around the transport, the village, some of the
:07:56. > :08:00.accommodation for the athletes, we want an exact what we're facing. We
:08:01. > :08:03.may now have to overlay some of our own support for the athletes to make
:08:04. > :08:07.sure that is OK. I'm sure you're going to ask about the ticket sales.
:08:08. > :08:11.We want. A.D. And excited countrymen. How much of a difference
:08:12. > :08:20.does it make and how much of a difference would it make to
:08:21. > :08:23.Paralympics in general if these Games are perceived to have been a
:08:24. > :08:25.bit of a flop? Empty stadiums, not much excitement, not much buzz, is
:08:26. > :08:30.that really serious? That would be really concerning. We go on about
:08:31. > :08:35.London's cataclysmic impact but that really was the case. It was a
:08:36. > :08:39.transformational Games for many of us and people's attitudes towards
:08:40. > :08:44.sport and disability. We found we've got more nations than ever before
:08:45. > :08:49.competing, more competitive than ever before, the sport will be
:08:50. > :08:55.better than London. NDC in America for the first time have live
:08:56. > :08:59.coverage. The whole upswing around the world. The sport is going to be
:09:00. > :09:02.better? The one thing we can be sure of is that the Times will be fast
:09:03. > :09:08.and people will be competing more strongly than they were in London.
:09:09. > :09:11.One might look at this and say it is a sort of depressing sign that
:09:12. > :09:15.although we talk about the parity of the Games, this talk is really a
:09:16. > :09:19.British thing and actually nowhere else in the world talks about it
:09:20. > :09:26.like this? The American team is the same size as our team. I think the
:09:27. > :09:32.French team is two thirds or half the size of our team. I think we bat
:09:33. > :09:38.above our weight in the Paralympics. Is it a British thing to think of
:09:39. > :09:43.the Parolo pigs as important? We are the birthplace of the movement, with
:09:44. > :09:48.Stoke Mandeville being the birthplace of that and we should be
:09:49. > :09:51.proud of that. But it doesn't make it bad at all, the fact that we are
:09:52. > :09:55.one of the larger teams is partly historic but it is also demonstrably
:09:56. > :10:00.the case that more athletes are coming to this Games than ever
:10:01. > :10:03.before. More nations are taking it seriously and the journey is
:10:04. > :10:07.definitely very positive. If I were to be a bit cliched about it, it is
:10:08. > :10:11.a journey. The movement is growing and I think it's really important
:10:12. > :10:14.that with Rio and with Tokyo to come, Tokyo has already demonstrated
:10:15. > :10:18.huge interest in the Paralympic Games and I think this will still be
:10:19. > :10:22.a great games. The sport will be fantastic and we have seen, small
:10:23. > :10:26.measures, but we have seen quite a lot of tickets seen in the last few
:10:27. > :10:30.days, about 100,000. While we still got a lot of concerns, I think it
:10:31. > :10:36.still looking like we could have a great Games. The ban has been upheld
:10:37. > :10:41.for Russia, they cannot go. Was that a good idea for the Paralympic
:10:42. > :10:45.committee to be on a kind of stronger anti-regime crusade than
:10:46. > :10:49.the Olympic Committee? I think so. I think it was a bowl and right thing
:10:50. > :10:53.to do at this time. Doping in Paralympic sport, it's quite unusual
:10:54. > :10:57.really, we haven't had any major cases, but for them to read in the
:10:58. > :11:00.McLaren review about so much potential evidence of systematic
:11:01. > :11:04.doping as they uncovered, I think it was the right thing to do. It's very
:11:05. > :11:08.sad that the athletes, no one is celebrating Russia not being there,
:11:09. > :11:12.but it feels like we've done the right thing as a Paralympic
:11:13. > :11:18.movement. Medel prediction for Team GB? Second place? We were third last
:11:19. > :11:23.time. And we move up to third like in the Olympics West remarked they
:11:24. > :11:30.have done fantastically well in the limpet games. ParalympicsGB, we're
:11:31. > :11:32.looking at 120 medals in London, if we can match or exceed that I think
:11:33. > :11:34.we will make the nation proud. A new study of men, women
:11:35. > :11:37.and the labour market It's from the Institute
:11:38. > :11:40.for Fiscal Studies, who are very good at making sense of huge
:11:41. > :11:43.datasets, and the report confirms what we perhaps knew -
:11:44. > :11:46.that women earn less than men. But there is more to say
:11:47. > :11:48.about it that that. There are three basic
:11:49. > :11:51.takeaway facts here. The first is this -
:11:52. > :11:54.the wage gap between childless women The men have hourly wages that
:11:55. > :11:58.are about 10% higher than the women. And that is a pretty
:11:59. > :12:01.significant gender disparity. It's not clear what the cause is -
:12:02. > :12:04.this is not different It could be that women gravitate
:12:05. > :12:08.towards different occupations Or it maybe that society has tended
:12:09. > :12:14.to pay so-called women's jobs, like nursing, less than so-called
:12:15. > :12:16.men's jobs, like trucking. The second point is that on top
:12:17. > :12:26.of this, a bigger disparity that So here is the wage gap in relation
:12:27. > :12:37.to the birth of a first child. Before the child,
:12:38. > :12:39.the gap is about 10%. And then in the later years
:12:40. > :12:43.after the first child, 12 years after their
:12:44. > :12:48.first born, the wage In fact, for every year taken
:12:49. > :12:52.out of the workplace, the woman's salary when she returns
:12:53. > :12:55.is 2% lower than it would That, you can call the price
:12:56. > :13:06.of taking time out. There is a third point to make
:13:07. > :13:09.though - that the wage gap is bigger at the more educated end
:13:10. > :13:11.of the labour market. For people with A-levels
:13:12. > :13:13.or a university degree, the wage penalty of taking time out
:13:14. > :13:16.is much bigger than for people Of course, top end jobs are better
:13:17. > :13:25.paid, but they are more better So two question leap out
:13:26. > :13:28.of all this. Why is the penalty of looking after
:13:29. > :13:32.children quite as large as it is? And why there is that core 10%
:13:33. > :13:36.gender wage gap even when children One country that has a smaller
:13:37. > :13:40.than average gap is Sweden - it has long been seen as a beacon
:13:41. > :13:56.of equal opportunity. Joining us now from Sweden, the
:13:57. > :14:00.Minister for Labour. Good evening, thanks for joining us. What do you
:14:01. > :14:05.think it takes to get that wage gap down? What is the most powerful and
:14:06. > :14:10.effective tool? I think the first thing is that you have to be very
:14:11. > :14:16.persistent and very decisive, that you will reach a 100% equal pay and
:14:17. > :14:20.you will not be satisfied with less. But being more pragmatic, I think
:14:21. > :14:24.that it must be easy to combine family and working life and I think
:14:25. > :14:30.that is one of the things that we have done quite good in Sweden.
:14:31. > :14:40.Almost all women work, we have a high employment rate amongst men and
:14:41. > :14:46.women. There is still a gap of 4% but that is smaller each year. I
:14:47. > :14:50.think we will reach equal levels of employment rates between men and
:14:51. > :14:57.women. And this is important. I was looking at the OECD statistics,
:14:58. > :15:02.respected international comparisons, and you still have quite a big wage
:15:03. > :15:08.gap. At one point you were world readers, but now still around 15% of
:15:09. > :15:11.wage gap. Even when you have a government that calls itself
:15:12. > :15:18.feminists, why do you think you still cannot get rid of that last
:15:19. > :15:24.15%? It is coming closer, it is 12.5% now and we need to take into
:15:25. > :15:28.account these things that can be explained by different levels of
:15:29. > :15:34.education and different ages. It is still a gap between 4.5% but I think
:15:35. > :15:39.we have got to do more and that is why we passed a law saying all
:15:40. > :15:46.importers have got to do equal pay gap reviews every year. At the
:15:47. > :15:50.workplace. And all employers also have to have an action plan, how to
:15:51. > :15:58.get rid of the equal pay gap. I think this is one important tool you
:15:59. > :16:04.can use on each workplace. Do not need to talk to the Swedish men, you
:16:05. > :16:08.have generous parental leave for when people have children, I think
:16:09. > :16:13.16 months between the mother and the father. It is the women who take
:16:14. > :16:20.most of that, though. Three quarters of it is women. That is correct and
:16:21. > :16:27.that is why we have just passed a new law saying that we will have, we
:16:28. > :16:33.will earmark three months for the mother and three months for the
:16:34. > :16:36.father. Or if there is a same sex parents, three months for one parent
:16:37. > :16:41.and three for the other. I think this will really help to have a more
:16:42. > :16:47.equal use of the parental leave and I think we have got to go one month
:16:48. > :16:53.by month until we reach an equal level of parental leave. Do you
:16:54. > :16:58.think that the wage gap that you still have, is that what I would
:16:59. > :17:04.call a gender gap or a child rearing gap? Is that the punishment can if
:17:05. > :17:07.you like, for a woman coming out of the labour market and going back in
:17:08. > :17:16.or is it about sexism at work or the weight we respect men but jobs
:17:17. > :17:20.different to women's jobs? It is not so easy, you are not punished
:17:21. > :17:25.because your children, it is quite easy to have children in Sweden, we
:17:26. > :17:28.have a good, high quality and affordable childcare for all
:17:29. > :17:34.children and we have this generous parental leave. We can also see that
:17:35. > :17:37.women with a high income, high level of education, have more children
:17:38. > :17:44.than those with low levels. So this is not really that easy, but you can
:17:45. > :17:49.see we still have a division in the labour market where women tend to
:17:50. > :17:56.work more with caring, working with people. And tend to be paid less if
:17:57. > :17:59.you work with people than if you work with machines or technology. I
:18:00. > :18:05.think that is one reason. Another reason is that a lot of women work
:18:06. > :18:12.in sectors where they're not allowed to be full-time working, so they
:18:13. > :18:17.work 80% or something but they still would like to work 100%. This is one
:18:18. > :18:26.of the most important issues for the Swedish unions to fight for. Yes,
:18:27. > :18:28.the part-time, full-time, and different occupations, caring
:18:29. > :18:30.occupations being underpaid. Thank you very much.
:18:31. > :18:32.It didn't take long for Twitter to call it Traingate.
:18:33. > :18:35.A case of alleged mendacity on the East Coast line.
:18:36. > :18:37.It started last week with Jeremy Corbyn recording some
:18:38. > :18:39.footage about the state of the railways, sitting
:18:40. > :18:42.on the floor of a train, calling it ram-packed.
:18:43. > :18:47.The implication was that there were no available seats.
:18:48. > :18:50.Well, Virgin decided to declare war on the Corbyn machine today,
:18:51. > :18:54.releasing CCTV images of apparently empty seats on that train,
:18:55. > :18:57.and indeed showing us that Mr Corbyn went to sit in one
:18:58. > :19:02.Now in TV land we know that sometimes the thing
:19:03. > :19:04.you want to film - like a ram-packed train -
:19:05. > :19:10.And we normally find carefully constructed weasel words to get
:19:11. > :19:16.We'd say "trains like this are ram-packed day-in and day-out".
:19:17. > :19:18.Or "often you can't get even a seat on a train,
:19:19. > :19:23.But Mr Corbyn left himself less wiggle room.
:19:24. > :19:27.He said, "Today this train is completely ram-packed".
:19:28. > :19:33.He's meant to be untainted by the dark arts of spin,
:19:34. > :19:35.so was it ram-packed or merely crowded, and does it matter?
:19:36. > :19:42.Something that Jeremy Corbyn's fans love about him is his
:19:43. > :19:46.Indeed, a few weeks ago he made a viral
:19:47. > :20:03.video about being the victim of an all too common problem.
:20:04. > :20:05.Today though, Virgin Trains, which runs
:20:06. > :20:14.And it shows him walking past empty seats before he recorded that video.
:20:15. > :20:17.Then settling down in a seat, after he was done.
:20:18. > :20:32.Mr Corbyn's team absolutely deny this
:20:33. > :20:40.We walked through all the carriages on the train and there
:20:41. > :20:43.So either people were sitting in the seats,
:20:44. > :20:44.or they were reserved, or
:20:45. > :20:46.there was, you know, luggage in the seats reserving
:20:47. > :20:51.Walked all the way through the train and ended up having to sit
:20:52. > :20:57.on the floor at the far end of the train.
:20:58. > :20:59.There were other passengers there also sitting on the floor.
:21:00. > :21:01.They weren't able to get a seat either.
:21:02. > :21:04.I think after about 45 minutes we were able to, a friendly
:21:05. > :21:08.train guard came to tell us that some seats have become available.
:21:09. > :21:10.As I understand, a family moved into,
:21:11. > :21:14.first-class section of the train and therefore
:21:15. > :21:15.the seats were offered to
:21:16. > :21:17.Jeremy and we were very grateful for them.
:21:18. > :21:20.This footage is of Mr Corbyn shortly into
:21:21. > :21:23.the journey, from before he recorded the video.
:21:24. > :21:25.Virgin said the seats are empty and unreserved.
:21:26. > :21:31.There appear to be lots of empty, unreserved seats in that
:21:32. > :21:34.And that's right at the beginning of the journey.
:21:35. > :21:38.Yes, so we walked through and I think what isn't clear
:21:39. > :21:40.in the photo is the fact that there are people
:21:41. > :21:44.children sitting on the seats, or luggage on the seats.
:21:45. > :21:46.I mean, as we walked through, all of the
:21:47. > :21:48.carriages, there weren't any places for us to sit down.
:21:49. > :21:51.You may ask whether this sort of thing is really
:21:52. > :21:54.But it's important to remember that sadly, most people in
:21:55. > :21:59.Most voters aren't that interested in the minutiae of policy discussion
:22:00. > :22:13.A simple story that speaks to the character of
:22:14. > :22:16.senior politicians is one that really gets cut through can
:22:17. > :22:18.Michael Foote's so-called donkey jacket worn at
:22:19. > :22:20.the Cenotaph was of no real importance.
:22:21. > :22:23.But people with concerns about his patriotism saw it as a
:22:24. > :22:26.Ten years ago, the discovery that David Cameron cycled to work
:22:27. > :22:28.followed by a chauffeur carrying his stuff got
:22:29. > :22:31.amazing cut through, because it spoke to concerns he
:22:32. > :22:35.Might the Virgin Trains video saga be Mr
:22:36. > :22:41.Does it speak strongly to his weaknesses?
:22:42. > :22:43.Jeremy Corbyn is certainly trusted among his
:22:44. > :22:44.supporters, but among the
:22:45. > :22:47.general public, that level of trust is not nearly as high.
:22:48. > :22:49.And so an event such as this where his honesty
:22:50. > :22:55.is called into question certainly could have an impact.
:22:56. > :22:57.My suspicion is though that the timing means that
:22:58. > :23:00.among his supporters this will be seen as yet another attack.
:23:01. > :23:03.And among the general public they probably won't pay too much
:23:04. > :23:06.Well, Mr Corbyn's team is sensitive about
:23:07. > :23:14.It does seem strange that the timing of
:23:15. > :23:17.Richard Branson and Virgin to release these images and kind of
:23:18. > :23:18.present a slightly skewed version of events,
:23:19. > :23:19.that they've chosen now as
:23:20. > :23:25.Mr Corbyn is still likely to retain the leadership.
:23:26. > :23:27.Rather appropriately, his supporters point
:23:28. > :23:32.to a lack of empty seats at rallies as a measure of his support.
:23:33. > :23:35.Joining me now are Matt Laza, former broadcast media advisor
:23:36. > :23:39.to Ed Miliband and now director of the thinktank Policy Network.
:23:40. > :23:42.And Debora Mattinson who used to be a pollster for Gordon Brown and now
:23:43. > :23:57.What do you think the truth is? You can see the photographs. They are
:23:58. > :24:00.there to see. Unless Virgin has issued photographs and somehow
:24:01. > :24:07.superimposed Jeremy Corbyn in that carriage. They could be very small
:24:08. > :24:12.people we could not see. I think this is difficult to talk your way
:24:13. > :24:21.out you need a better witness than someone who is a member of his
:24:22. > :24:25.staff. There are conspiracy theories which the Jeremy Corbyn camp are not
:24:26. > :24:30.unfamiliar with, but cannot explain this away. Now does it matter, is it
:24:31. > :24:38.like David Cameron with the car behind him? I think it is more like
:24:39. > :24:46.the David Cameron with his shoes in the limo. I remember that vividly.
:24:47. > :24:50.The incident happened and in focus group situations months afterwards
:24:51. > :24:55.people talked about it it struck a chord. Because David Cameron have
:24:56. > :24:59.carefully positioned himself as an eco-warrior and then suddenly, doing
:25:00. > :25:07.this and the story unravelling, it just aren't picked that position.
:25:08. > :25:11.And everyone got it. And we become a month later they still talked about
:25:12. > :25:17.it. I think this could just be the same. This is the man who is
:25:18. > :25:22.straight talking, honest politics, he put himself above all of those
:25:23. > :25:28.tacky photo opportunities and media games. And yet here he is. Neither
:25:29. > :25:37.of them Jeremy Corbyn fans, in particular, but I can see you
:25:38. > :25:41.nodding. Where it does matter, die-hard Jeremy Corbyn fans will see
:25:42. > :25:47.this as just another mainstream media attack on him. Tomorrow we
:25:48. > :25:53.will find out which former Blairites work for the media agency for
:25:54. > :26:02.Virgin. But it does matter, he is trying to be holier than thou, and
:26:03. > :26:18.the late Michael Meacher once was caught out trying to say he had a
:26:19. > :26:22.dozen houses, and that is all people remembered about him. If you're
:26:23. > :26:31.going to be straight talking and you claim that the train is empty, your
:26:32. > :26:37.court red-handed. It is less about authenticity, I think that is a
:26:38. > :26:42.subset of integrity. And we look at what matters for leadership and
:26:43. > :26:47.being a good communicator, having integrity and being decisive other
:26:48. > :26:52.things that stand out. I think integrity, this is it. Would you
:26:53. > :26:57.have let this happen when you were running around with Ed Miliband? We
:26:58. > :27:02.all know that you play tricks, to make a point about trains for
:27:03. > :27:07.example. His point, even Virgin conceded that they need more trains
:27:08. > :27:11.on that line. So this is his bigger point in a way. But it needs to have
:27:12. > :27:17.a factual basis. I go up and down quite frequently on Virgin Trains.
:27:18. > :27:23.If they thought Labour was going to win, they would not have released
:27:24. > :27:27.this. The idea that you pick a fight with the Leader of the Opposition at
:27:28. > :27:32.any other point, frankly, in 50 years of political history and that
:27:33. > :27:36.is an important point. Labour Party supporters should realise that the
:27:37. > :27:43.party is not being taken seriously. It could just be, the Jeremy Corbyn
:27:44. > :27:48.narrative begs to differ, that this is the company and we are saying
:27:49. > :27:52.they're going to nationalise the railways. If they thought that they
:27:53. > :28:00.were going to do it then Virgin would be scared and Richard Branson
:28:01. > :28:06.would be sending out sarcastic text. With Ed Miliband, authenticity did
:28:07. > :28:13.matter to him. He spent 18 months of his childhood in Leeds. And I got so
:28:14. > :28:17.many phone calls from this building saying please take him to that
:28:18. > :28:21.school. And he said he would not pretend to be an authentic
:28:22. > :28:27.Yorkshireman. And that is what Jeremy Corbyn has not quite realised
:28:28. > :28:30.and it shows that the operation is amateur, you would have checked what
:28:31. > :28:35.was going on before releasing the video. What about authenticity, is
:28:36. > :28:43.that what the public really want or do they want competent politicians?
:28:44. > :28:47.They do want of setting politicians. -- authentic politicians. And once
:28:48. > :28:51.you believe what they believe. If you are authentic, and your views
:28:52. > :28:54.are different from the public, then actually they will not vote for you.
:28:55. > :28:59.If they just wanted authenticity then Jeremy Corbyn, his ratings
:29:00. > :29:04.would be screaming and they're not, they are the worst of any leader of
:29:05. > :29:07.a political party since polling began. So I do not think so, it is
:29:08. > :29:10.not enough. Thank you both. Two months ago today,
:29:11. > :29:13.Britain voted to leave the EU. Our business editor Helen Thomas
:29:14. > :29:18.has been taking stock. And remember what was
:29:19. > :29:25.meant to happen next? Mortgages will get more expensive
:29:26. > :29:29.and mortgage rates will go up. More worried now, much more worried,
:29:30. > :29:33.than I was in 2008. So why would we take
:29:34. > :29:37.a leap in the dark? So, has the economic reality lived
:29:38. > :29:48.of years of uncertainty? As the first hard data on the state
:29:49. > :30:05.of the economy is rolled in, Last week, retail sales figures
:30:06. > :30:09.for July showed spending up 5.9% One measure of unemployment,
:30:10. > :30:12.the number of people claiming Jobseeker's Allowance,
:30:13. > :30:13.fell by 8,600 in July, And today, a survey
:30:14. > :30:18.by the Confederation of British Industry found
:30:19. > :30:21.that the sharp drop in the pound was helping export orders,
:30:22. > :30:24.boosting UK manufacturing. I think Project Fear actually
:30:25. > :30:33.looks quite ludicrous. Because a lot of the very lurid
:30:34. > :30:36.claims that we had from August bodies like the Treasury or the Bank
:30:37. > :30:39.of England or the IMF or the OECD, they're all coming up with all kinds
:30:40. > :30:42.of weird and wonderful predictions of calamity,
:30:43. > :30:44.based on their economic models. Which were broadly
:30:45. > :30:46.bogus, in my opinion. The weaker pound may
:30:47. > :30:53.also be helping. There was a near 20%
:30:54. > :30:57.increase in tourism in July. Well, lo and behold,
:30:58. > :30:59.tourists don't walk around So all the data from outfits
:31:00. > :31:07.like Visa or people who sell Swiss watches or luxury items,
:31:08. > :31:09.we've got a tourist boom going on. I don't think it's a one-month
:31:10. > :31:11.wonder. Forecasts for UK growth
:31:12. > :31:15.have been slashed. Confidence took a hit
:31:16. > :31:18.after the vote. And surveys of business activity
:31:19. > :31:21.plummeted to the lowest That rattled the Bank of England
:31:22. > :31:31.enough to unveil an aggressive package of measures
:31:32. > :31:33.to boost the economy. An overreaction, or is the bank,
:31:34. > :31:35.like others, waiting for important I think the really key area
:31:36. > :31:41.where heightened uncertainty after this vote is going to affect
:31:42. > :31:45.the UK is business investment. It's in house-building,
:31:46. > :31:47.it's in construction. And we don't have any
:31:48. > :31:53.hard data on that yet. We're not going to get
:31:54. > :31:55.it until next month. But that, for me, is going
:31:56. > :31:58.to be really important. What happens to the construction
:31:59. > :32:00.sector, especially, what happens We're talking into the autumn
:32:01. > :32:05.for that. The trouble is that this early data
:32:06. > :32:09.is inevitably ambiguous. Does one strong month of retail
:32:10. > :32:12.sales reflect robust consumer confidence,
:32:13. > :32:16.or just some sunny weather? The risk of an acute economic shock
:32:17. > :32:21.seems to have passed. But whether it's slow burn damage
:32:22. > :32:24.is being done to the UK That might depend on the longer term
:32:25. > :32:29.effects of a weak pound. Do rising prices start to hurt
:32:30. > :32:34.people's spending power? It also relies on what
:32:35. > :32:40.the Government does next. Peak risk sits probably six to 12
:32:41. > :32:42.months after the the The reason I say that is in
:32:43. > :32:50.the short term, the quick action by the Bank of England
:32:51. > :32:53.and the collapse in sterling has provided a bit of a stimulus
:32:54. > :32:55.to the UK economy. But once you start to get a specific
:32:56. > :32:58.steer from the Government, what type of Brexit it will pursue,
:32:59. > :33:01.you move towards a situation where firms are making clear
:33:02. > :33:04.decisions on their future and some of the trade-offs that inevitably
:33:05. > :33:06.come from withdrawing from the European Union,
:33:07. > :33:08.the rubber starts to hit Consumers so far remained unfazed,
:33:09. > :33:16.but business appears more skittish. Whether that is a passing hit
:33:17. > :33:19.or the start of a lasting investment freeze could determine
:33:20. > :33:22.whether the UK economy has been left It's only two days since our last
:33:23. > :33:37.Olympic medal, but a lot of people Daytime TV just isn't
:33:38. > :33:40.the same in the 206 weeks But the more serious
:33:41. > :33:43.post-games adjustment is not the one that affects us,
:33:44. > :33:46.it's the one that affects Their job is to give it
:33:47. > :33:53.all in the run-up to the Games, You might have heard Jason Kenny
:33:54. > :33:59.and Laura Trott talk of the post-race blues,
:34:00. > :34:01.on Radio 4 this morning. Well, someone who has been
:34:02. > :34:03.through it is swimmer Karen She was four times World champion,
:34:04. > :34:07.broke two world Records and competed at four consecutive Olympic Games,
:34:08. > :34:14.starting at Barcelona in 1992. Very good evening. Just described to
:34:15. > :34:19.us the feeling come-down that come-down that you get. Well, you've
:34:20. > :34:23.trained for something. Along, you put your heart and soul, your whole
:34:24. > :34:29.focus, you've been very selfish and driven, aiming towards one goal. And
:34:30. > :34:32.in a flash it is all over. And suddenly you don't have that
:34:33. > :34:36.structure, you don't have the same aims and goals. You are suddenly
:34:37. > :34:41.feeling a bit aimless and quite lost. You've been on a high with
:34:42. > :34:46.other team members and you kind of go back to reality. How long does it
:34:47. > :34:51.take for you to start training again after one championship, one event,
:34:52. > :34:54.start thinking about the next one? For everyone it is different. It
:34:55. > :34:59.depends where you are in your career. Young athletes will probably
:35:00. > :35:02.be chomping at the bit to get back at it and some of the more
:35:03. > :35:06.experienced athletes will actually take a bit of time, some even up to
:35:07. > :35:09.a year to decide if they're going to do another cycle. Actually it
:35:10. > :35:16.doesn't really matter whether you've been successful or not, the
:35:17. > :35:20.come-down after that major championship, after you've gone and
:35:21. > :35:24.done what you wanted to do or not, the come-down after it is
:35:25. > :35:28.significant. The really big precipice is for those who have just
:35:29. > :35:33.done their last Olympics, their last big contest, right? The end of the
:35:34. > :35:38.Korea, that must be an enormous adjustment? It really is and I think
:35:39. > :35:41.there is probable you more of an understanding of the retirement and
:35:42. > :35:45.that sort of process that athletes need to go through and work on
:35:46. > :35:51.careers afterwards but also their mental health afterwards and there
:35:52. > :35:56.real change. It's not just a job, it's a lifestyle, a way of life,
:35:57. > :35:59.being an athlete. You lose a whole identity. I think there is
:36:00. > :36:01.understanding of that but actually there is less understanding of an
:36:02. > :36:06.athlete who is an Olympic champion, who comes back and everyone thinks
:36:07. > :36:10.they've got the world at their feet, they are starting a fantastic career
:36:11. > :36:13.and they can't understand that actually there are all these things
:36:14. > :36:17.going on in their mind and they can't get a grip again, they don't
:36:18. > :36:21.have that fight. Everyone is looking at them thinking you should be
:36:22. > :36:27.really happy, you had it all, and they can't reconcile that. How
:36:28. > :36:30.serious can that get? Do people get depressed, I mean properly
:36:31. > :36:35.depressed? Do they just go through the blues? Does it get very serious?
:36:36. > :36:39.It can be very serious. For some people it is just a bit of blues, a
:36:40. > :36:42.bit of adjusting to having to do their own washing and cook their own
:36:43. > :36:46.meals and start over again, but for other people can become something
:36:47. > :36:50.quite serious. There is an American swim, Alison Schmidt, who has been
:36:51. > :36:55.very vocal about it just recently. She was a five-time medallist in
:36:56. > :37:01.London and she was really suffering and felt suicidal at times after and
:37:02. > :37:06.has really struggled in the last few years. She made it to Rio,
:37:07. > :37:10.fortunately, but she's had a really tough time of it and she is now
:37:11. > :37:14.speaking out about it and I'm sure she's not the only one. What do you
:37:15. > :37:18.do about it? What support is there and what kind of backing do the
:37:19. > :37:22.athletes get? Do people think about their mental health as well as their
:37:23. > :37:31.physical? I think people are starting to because you realise how
:37:32. > :37:34.-- how strong the mind is. It's starting to be more understood. I
:37:35. > :37:39.think in some ways athletes who don't perform well I helped more
:37:40. > :37:44.because people expect them to be sent and needing some support. I
:37:45. > :37:47.think the key thing is actually the home coaches need to see the signs.
:37:48. > :37:53.When they go back to their programmes, maybe not having the
:37:54. > :37:59.same personalities, not driven in the same way, something is not quite
:38:00. > :38:05.right, that is where the help can come for them. If friends and family
:38:06. > :38:09.of the athletes notice a change, they can get in early and catch it
:38:10. > :38:11.before it becomes something really serious. Karen Pickering, thanks a
:38:12. > :38:13.lot. I'll be back tomorrow,
:38:14. > :38:16.but before we go, the second in our series of performances
:38:17. > :38:18.from artists appearing Tonight, we're sticking
:38:19. > :38:21.to the Brazilian theme, because we have the Sao Paulo Jazz
:38:22. > :38:24.Symphony Orchestra, who will be performing in tomorrow's late night
:38:25. > :38:26.Prom at the Royal Albert Hall. You can catch it tomorrow evening
:38:27. > :38:30.at 22:15 on Radio 3.