:00:08. > :00:10.At least 120 have been killed and many are missing
:00:11. > :00:11.after an earthquake in central Italy.
:00:12. > :00:13.Buildings have been reduced to rubble as the rescue
:00:14. > :00:16.TRANSLATION: I really don't know what to say.
:00:17. > :00:18.We are living through this tragedy and we're only hoping
:00:19. > :00:21.that there will be the fewest number of victims as possible
:00:22. > :00:25.and that we will have the courage to move on.
:00:26. > :00:27.Italy is all too familiar with the devastation that
:00:28. > :00:31.As well as hearing from the area that's been hit today,
:00:32. > :00:37.we'll look at why that region is so vulnerable.
:00:38. > :00:40.Also tonight, the ban on the burkini - is this the problem with it?
:00:41. > :00:43.A picture of armed police telling a woman on a beach she's
:00:44. > :00:50.We'll ask when it's right for a state to take such a hard line.
:00:51. > :00:55.From Stoke on Trent to Stoke Newington,
:00:56. > :00:57.Newsnight's effort to bring harmony where there is discord.
:00:58. > :01:01.We just happen to have contrary views.
:01:02. > :01:04.And those are as valid as each other's.
:01:05. > :01:07.Business leader Sir Martin Sorrell is with us to tell us how Brexit
:01:08. > :01:26.A magnitude 6.2 earthquake does not sound that large -
:01:27. > :01:29.in fact at that size, they occur every few days
:01:30. > :01:33.But magnitude is often no guide to impact, and the earthquake that
:01:34. > :01:36.struck in central Italy in the early hours of this morning
:01:37. > :01:44.The town of Amatrice was particularly badly hit.
:01:45. > :01:47.It's the town famous world over for its Amatriciana pasta sauce
:01:48. > :01:49.and was due to celebrate a food festival this weekend.
:01:50. > :01:53.The mayor said half the town isn't here any more and that was,
:01:54. > :02:05.The scale of destruction clearest from the air.
:02:06. > :02:07.The clocktower seems to be the only building to have survived.
:02:08. > :02:10.The clock itself, stuck on the time the quake struck.
:02:11. > :02:12.Sister Marianna was pulled from the wreckage of her
:02:13. > :02:22.Some of her fellow sisters were still trapped inside.
:02:23. > :02:24.When I realised what had happened, I tried to hide myself
:02:25. > :02:34.And then I went outside to ask for help but no one heard me.
:02:35. > :02:38.Moving a few miles north, to the town of Accumoli,
:02:39. > :02:42.He had been buried under rubble for nine hours.
:02:43. > :02:50.Here, an official talks to a woman who is trapped.
:02:51. > :02:56."Can you breathe?" he asks.
:02:57. > :03:04.For the earthquake itself, it is the inevitable CCTV images
:03:05. > :03:09.This motorway camera shows the moment it hit, just
:03:10. > :03:18.Quite apart from the pictures of an aftermath we are all familiar
:03:19. > :03:20.with, there have poignant accounts of rescuers dealing with those
:03:21. > :03:24.One witness described "screaming women looking for their children".
:03:25. > :03:26.The region was more populated than usual, with tourists
:03:27. > :03:36.Italy is, of course, notoriously vulnerable
:03:37. > :03:39.to earthquakes - and that Umbrian region in the centre
:03:40. > :03:49.Today's quake was actually centred on Norcia in that province.
:03:50. > :03:55.Back in 1997, not too far away, there was a quake that badly
:03:56. > :03:56.affected the city of St Francis, Assisi.
:03:57. > :03:58.The quake then was thankfully less deadly.
:03:59. > :04:01.It killed 11 but it badly damaged the Basilica and medieval frescoes.
:04:02. > :04:06.Then in 2009, the town of L'Aquilia was near the centre of an earthquake
:04:07. > :04:13.I spoke to Professor Dina D'Ayala, co-director of the Earthquake
:04:14. > :04:15.and People Interaction Centre at University College, London.
:04:16. > :04:26.I asked why that region has so many earthquakes.
:04:27. > :04:29.The reality is that the Apennine is an emerging mountain range that
:04:30. > :04:32.has been created by the, let's say, the thrust of the African plate
:04:33. > :04:39.against the Euro Asian plate and this
:04:40. > :04:43.There are many faults along the Apennines and any of them at any
:04:44. > :04:47.And the Apennines are basically all the way down the centre
:04:48. > :04:56.Our reporter, John Sweeney, was nearby the earthquake when it
:04:57. > :05:02.struck and he's been on the ground for us today.
:05:03. > :05:09.John, you have been out and about, talking to people, tell us about
:05:10. > :05:14.your day and what you found? Well, the day started in the middle of the
:05:15. > :05:19.night, 3.30, and to be honest with you, Evan, I thought when the quake
:05:20. > :05:24.hit, I was in Perugia, 90 miles from here, I thought John, you have to
:05:25. > :05:28.give up drinking, and then I realised it wasn't me that was drunk
:05:29. > :05:35.it was the ground was drunk and you really, really can't get across how
:05:36. > :05:39.disorientating it is, so suddenly the ground, the earth which should
:05:40. > :05:46.be solid is shaking, dancing, it is jelly. It was ghastly. And there was
:05:47. > :05:52.a second shock, and this is 90 miles away and again, this fear and it is
:05:53. > :05:58.an animal thing, it was really scary, and, so we came down here,
:05:59. > :06:02.and we went to a village on the mountain side called Pescara, when
:06:03. > :06:08.the earth shook, the whole village collapsed and it is desperate. You
:06:09. > :06:13.wander round, you see bank statement, tax bill, kids's toys,
:06:14. > :06:16.people's suitcases and the noise must have been extraordinarily
:06:17. > :06:19.frightening, because great big boulders and rocks and houses were
:06:20. > :06:24.coming down, people survived in that, and they must have lived
:06:25. > :06:29.through something horrible. Nevertheless, I spoke to one woman,
:06:30. > :06:34.who lost her auntie and uncle, at least they are missing presumed
:06:35. > :06:37.dead, and she was, she was holding back because great big boulders and
:06:38. > :06:39.rocks and houses were coming down, people survived in that, and they
:06:40. > :06:41.must have lived through something horrible. Nevertheless, I spoke to
:06:42. > :06:44.one woman, who lost her auntie and uncle, at least they are missing
:06:45. > :06:47.presumed dead, and she was, she was holding back her grief, and I said
:06:48. > :06:50."What is the future for your town? Town? " He said there is no future.
:06:51. > :06:52.One of the tragic things is this area is littered with towns and
:06:53. > :06:56.villages which have been abandoned this century, last century and 300,
:06:57. > :07:01.400 years back, so there is a history of this happening but it is
:07:02. > :07:06.frightening to see the scale of the damage and when you get to Amatrice,
:07:07. > :07:09.it is grim. Look behind me, you can see some of it, it's a flavour of it
:07:10. > :07:13.and it is difficult to get across just how bad things are here. You
:07:14. > :07:18.make the point of course, there are lots of villages we haven't
:07:19. > :07:21.mentioned, the coverage has focussed on Amatrice, what would you say the
:07:22. > :07:27.situation is on the ground now? How much of a grip are they getting on
:07:28. > :07:30.the rescue effort, for example? Well, to get here, it is really
:07:31. > :07:36.difficult, the police have closed off the roads and we got a lift from
:07:37. > :07:42.the Red Cross. I have to say, all credit to the people of Italy, and
:07:43. > :07:46.the volunteers, who have come -- come in their hundreds, maybe their
:07:47. > :07:50.thousands to the earthquake zone, but what was sad was as we were
:07:51. > :07:53.coming up the mountain, down the mountain there was maybe a dozen,
:07:54. > :07:58.maybe more ambulances going down the hill, for this reason. That when the
:07:59. > :08:02.quake struck that is when people died, and yes, there are people
:08:03. > :08:07.missing, and I am afraid nearly all of those are probably dead and maybe
:08:08. > :08:10.there will be some survivor, I hope, so but nevertheless, there isn't,
:08:11. > :08:17.you have to look after people, people are homeless and so forth,
:08:18. > :08:21.but essentially, the, the death, the big death, that is behind us now.
:08:22. > :08:25.The number, 120, I think lit go up, I don't know, but it feels, you look
:08:26. > :08:27.at the damage, you think how can people survive this? I feel lit go
:08:28. > :08:32.up. John, thank you very much. It's not always easy
:08:33. > :08:34.being a Western liberal democracy. We like to think we are tolerant
:08:35. > :08:36.of difference and deviance, but at the same time we do
:08:37. > :08:39.often demand conformity. In this country we've fined people
:08:40. > :08:41.who've burned poppies on Remembrance Day while shouting
:08:42. > :08:43.gross remarks about British troops. We've fined people for
:08:44. > :08:45.insulting the Welsh and, And we don't encourage people
:08:46. > :08:49.to walk naked through the streets. Does that make us illiberal
:08:50. > :08:51.hypocrites or simply human? Where do you draw that line
:08:52. > :08:53.between individual rights and a constructed norm
:08:54. > :08:56.of social decency? Well, in France right now
:08:57. > :08:58.they are testing that line. Several towns have banned burkinis -
:08:59. > :09:01.the full body cover used on beaches You could say it's the French way -
:09:02. > :09:05.trying to create social harmony by imposing a national
:09:06. > :09:08.view of shared values, in this case that women are not
:09:09. > :09:11.expected to be too modest. The other way, perhaps more British,
:09:12. > :09:14.is to create social harmony The problem that's emerged
:09:15. > :09:26.with the French approach is that it has to be enforced,
:09:27. > :09:29.which means policeman - possibly armed -
:09:30. > :09:50.on beaches instructing women Bans on wearing the so-called
:09:51. > :09:54.burkini, a full body swimming costume which leaves only the face,
:09:55. > :09:57.hands and feet exposed have been making headlines for the past ten
:09:58. > :10:01.days. The outfit has come to represent
:10:02. > :10:05.France's internal struggling with how it relates to its largest
:10:06. > :10:11.minority, and it is a debate taking place across Europe.
:10:12. > :10:15.But in the last 24 hours, these photos of armed French police
:10:16. > :10:20.appearing to force a Muslim woman to remove a long sleeved is tunic while
:10:21. > :10:25.she sits on a beach in Nice have spread round world. She is one of at
:10:26. > :10:30.least 16 Muslim women in France to have been fined 38 euros for
:10:31. > :10:34.according to ticket issued to one woman not wearing an outfit
:10:35. > :10:40.respecting good morals and secularism. You have three armed
:10:41. > :10:50.cop, forces you to undress, fine you, because of the way you look
:10:51. > :10:58.like. I mean, Muslim women feel even more stigmatised, but even if you
:10:59. > :11:03.are not Muslim, it's offensive, it is degrade, it is humiliating, and I
:11:04. > :11:06.don't think it's the job of cops to do that, I mean they are here to
:11:07. > :11:11.ensure security not to be the fashion police. Nice where the
:11:12. > :11:16.photos were taken is one of at least 15 French towns to enforce a ban on
:11:17. > :11:21.access to beaches for anyone wearing improper clothing. The word buck
:11:22. > :11:24.anyisn't mentioned. The mayor of Cannes, the first French town to
:11:25. > :11:42.introduce the restriction said: Tomorrow, France's highest court
:11:43. > :11:47.will decide whether the bans can stay in place. It feels like we do
:11:48. > :11:51.not belong here, we are not welcome here, we are not part of this
:11:52. > :11:55.country, the problem is French Muslims are French, they are part of
:11:56. > :12:00.society, they built this society. They were part of the people who
:12:01. > :12:06.built France, literally, so it cannot, we cannot go on like this,
:12:07. > :12:12.and at the moment the climate is despicable. She may well have reason
:12:13. > :12:17.to be worried. Marine Le Pen's far right party the Front National are
:12:18. > :12:20.currently topping the polls ahead of next year's Presidential election
:12:21. > :12:26.and everyone else is playing to their tune. Former President Sarkozy
:12:27. > :12:31.is promising to place new restrictions on Muslim dress and
:12:32. > :12:39.ensure French Muslims adapt to secular life if he is reelected to
:12:40. > :12:43.his old office, in his new book that sets out this provision, M Sarkozy
:12:44. > :12:48.takes a direct swipe at the way we do things here in Britain. We are
:12:49. > :12:50.not Anglo-Saxons who allow communities to live side by side
:12:51. > :13:03.while ignoring one another. The model we have celebrated by
:13:04. > :13:07.Muslims, because it allows us, enables us to be participatory
:13:08. > :13:15.citizens without having to have restriction on our human right, I
:13:16. > :13:20.find it baffling that a modern, 21st century liberal democracy in Europe,
:13:21. > :13:23.part of the European Union, an original member of the European
:13:24. > :13:27.Union can call itself liberal democracy, with universal values of
:13:28. > :13:31.human rights, and you know, the progressive values of feminism, when
:13:32. > :13:34.we are dictating what women should and should not wear, in public
:13:35. > :13:38.spaces. The idea that women can be fined
:13:39. > :13:43.because of how they dress is baffling to many people here in
:13:44. > :13:47.Britain, not just Muslims. After the London terror attacks in
:13:48. > :13:52.2005, there was much talk about whether a French approach of forced
:13:53. > :13:56.integration could be the best way to prevent further Islamist inspired
:13:57. > :14:00.violence but today, as France grapples with its identity and
:14:01. > :14:04.security, and when even left leaning politicians are telling women what
:14:05. > :14:09.to wear, few in Britain are looking to the French for answers.
:14:10. > :14:12.Joining me in the studio is Shelina Janmohammed,
:14:13. > :14:15.author of Love in a Headscarf and Generation M.
:14:16. > :14:17.And from our Oxford studio, Douglas Murray, associate
:14:18. > :14:33.Shelina, you have it burkini? I have one, it looks like a long T-shirt
:14:34. > :14:37.with a pair of leggings and a swimming cup. Did you know it was
:14:38. > :14:42.going to be such an important statement? It looks like a wet suit
:14:43. > :14:48.that people wear, which we need in British waters. And in the South of
:14:49. > :14:53.France because it is hot. It is not the burkini, it is some kind of
:14:54. > :14:58.meaning being imposed on us. Is that not what this is all about? You have
:14:59. > :15:04.written about this, this is a tokenistic thing, about the politics
:15:05. > :15:09.of picking on some symbol, however how arbitrary, and making a big deal
:15:10. > :15:15.out of something relatively small? Indeed, in the last 18 months more
:15:16. > :15:19.than 200 people have been killed in attacks in France and in the last
:15:20. > :15:23.few days it has come out from Germany that the German government
:15:24. > :15:28.is looking not only at advising the German people to stockpile essential
:15:29. > :15:32.things like water in case of some mass casualty attack but talking
:15:33. > :15:37.about conscription and here we are, with the summer's big story of
:15:38. > :15:45.French and some German politicians competing to out idiot each other by
:15:46. > :15:49.talking about the burkini, this is a European tradition in the face of a
:15:50. > :15:56.genuinely serious societal problem that radical Islam poses across
:15:57. > :15:59.Europe and has its worst demonstrations in extremist attacks
:16:00. > :16:04.like those in Paris and Germany in recent months and in the face of
:16:05. > :16:08.that, politicians compete with each other and the media competes about
:16:09. > :16:13.really frivolous things and the burkini is a frivolous debate, not
:16:14. > :16:18.one life is likely to be saved by a woman being fined on a beach for
:16:19. > :16:22.wearing a burkini. And the reason they are doing this is
:16:23. > :16:27.straightforward, neither politicians in France or Germany or anywhere in
:16:28. > :16:30.Europe are able to face up to the massive issues which they have
:16:31. > :16:36.brought about and which they now cannot answer. Let us talk about
:16:37. > :16:39.whether you think there is cowardice, do you agree? They are
:16:40. > :16:44.focusing on the little things because they do not want to talk a
:16:45. > :16:49.big cultural war between Muslims and the West? I think we need to take a
:16:50. > :16:53.moment to step back and imagine for women around the country and the
:16:54. > :16:56.world what it is like to sit on a beach wedding sand castles with your
:16:57. > :17:01.children and have four policemen standing around you with handguns
:17:02. > :17:07.and make you take your top off. Everybody needs to let that sink in.
:17:08. > :17:12.It is why we are discussing this. This is not just about Muslim women,
:17:13. > :17:16.when we have a state and police telling women what they can and
:17:17. > :17:19.cannot wear, we are into dangerous territory and I will tell you which
:17:20. > :17:24.other organisations tell women what to wear at the barrel of a gun and
:17:25. > :17:27.that is Daesh and the extremists and women everywhere should be
:17:28. > :17:36.protesting at this time of behaviour. The Mayor of Cannes said
:17:37. > :17:39.when I took the decision to ban people from walking topless on the
:17:40. > :17:44.streets of Cannes nobody said anything about human rights. He
:17:45. > :17:47.probably did not also say that women who wanted to go for a swim were
:17:48. > :17:55.somehow pledging allegiance to a terrorist organisation. Douglas,
:17:56. > :18:00.what is the better approach? To the problem which you think exists, the
:18:01. > :18:04.French approach that Nicolas Sarkozy promotes or the Anglo-Saxon approach
:18:05. > :18:08.that President Sarkozy says he does not think it is right because we
:18:09. > :18:13.ignore each other and tolerate each other but ignore each other. One of
:18:14. > :18:18.the things that has been said, which is, of course the parallel that has
:18:19. > :18:23.been drawn breaks down when we remember that the French
:18:24. > :18:28.authorities, grotesque as this is, do not do to the women what Isis
:18:29. > :18:33.Amytal abounded, which is raped and killed them, so this parallel goes a
:18:34. > :18:37.certain way but we have to keep this in some context. As for the
:18:38. > :18:42.competing manners of dealing with this, the interesting thing is, in
:18:43. > :18:45.the last 15 years we have had so many manifestations of this,
:18:46. > :18:50.something blows up in London and people say we should maybe look to
:18:51. > :18:54.the French model and then 130 people get gunned down in Paris and people
:18:55. > :18:59.think, we should maybe look at the Norwegian model or the Swedish model
:19:00. > :19:03.or the German model and the fact is, everybody realises that none of
:19:04. > :19:09.these models have worked, they have broken down, none of them were fit
:19:10. > :19:12.for purpose. So when Nicolas Sarkozy, for purely electoral
:19:13. > :19:17.reasons, says the Anglo-Saxon model of people living side by side in
:19:18. > :19:23.parallel communities, if there was no visual video evidence of this, I
:19:24. > :19:28.would suspect that Nicolas Sarkozy has never been to the suburbs of
:19:29. > :19:32.Paris because if he did go to them, he would see that precisely that
:19:33. > :19:36.parallel exists and exists in France. I would argue, worse than
:19:37. > :19:41.any other European country, but it is not a question of who has done
:19:42. > :19:44.this really well or badly, everybody has failed in the integration,
:19:45. > :19:49.everybody has failed because immigration at levels we have had,
:19:50. > :19:53.particularly the levels that Chancellor Merkel has put the
:19:54. > :19:57.continent into having, cannot possibly work. The point is
:19:58. > :20:03.understood, I want Shelina to have her reply to that. The French or
:20:04. > :20:08.British model? Or do you agree with Douglas that no model has worked?
:20:09. > :20:10.The problem is, when we try to stitch together ideas about
:20:11. > :20:14.immigration and what women should and should not wear on the idea that
:20:15. > :20:17.there is some kind of security and terrorism problem, we are
:20:18. > :20:21.approaching the issue the wrong way and that is how we end up with
:20:22. > :20:24.policemen telling women to take off their clothes. We need to think
:20:25. > :20:28.about how we can enforce the rule of law to allow citizens to flourish
:20:29. > :20:33.and that has to be by allowing people to express their values and
:20:34. > :20:38.participate in society and if Muslim women want to do that by the way
:20:39. > :20:42.they dress, but by being part of public society, we have to allow
:20:43. > :20:43.them to express that, that is a fundamental of living in a liberal
:20:44. > :20:47.democracy. Thank you both. It's not just the EU
:20:48. > :20:50.that is facing its challenges A wave of anti-establishment
:20:51. > :20:53.politicians have been questioning some of the basic precepts
:20:54. > :20:56.of the organisation. Donald Trump is fairly blase
:20:57. > :20:59.about Nato, and has suggested he'd only help members who pay their fair
:21:00. > :21:01.share towards defence. And then here, of course,
:21:02. > :21:03.there is Jeremy Corbyn, He's called it an engine
:21:04. > :21:08.for the delivery of oil Would you get involved
:21:09. > :21:14.militarily, if.... I would want to avoid us getting
:21:15. > :21:18.involved militarily by building up the diplomatic relationships,
:21:19. > :21:23.and also trying to not isolate any Everyone would want to avoid
:21:24. > :21:28.it, but would you get I don't wish - I don't wish to go
:21:29. > :21:33.to war, what I want to do is achieve a world where we don't need to go
:21:34. > :21:36.to war, where there Well, I spoke to
:21:37. > :21:42.Anders Fogh Rasmussen. He was once the Prime Minister
:21:43. > :21:45.of Denmark, and then became Secretary General
:21:46. > :21:47.of Nato until 2014. Well, I think his refusal
:21:48. > :21:56.to clearly state that, as a Prime Minister,
:21:57. > :21:58.or possible Prime Minister of the UK, he would not be sure
:21:59. > :22:06.that he would defend Nato allies, has really, really undermined
:22:07. > :22:12.the credibility of Nato, and if he were to carry out
:22:13. > :22:16.what he has said, it would tempt Mr Putin to aggression,
:22:17. > :22:24.to test the resolve of Nato. You really believe that,
:22:25. > :22:27.that the word of a British Prime Minister, assuming he was elected,
:22:28. > :22:30.would President Putin to do what, to invade Poland,
:22:31. > :22:37.or what are you thinking? I don't think that Mr Putin
:22:38. > :22:41.would conduct an open attack on a Nato ally,
:22:42. > :22:44.but what we might see is what we call hybrid warfare,
:22:45. > :22:50.this mix of small green men, and sophisticated disinformation,
:22:51. > :22:54.as we saw when he illegally annexed I mean, one of the things that
:22:55. > :23:04.Mr Corbyn has said - not on the occasion we have been
:23:05. > :23:07.talking about, but on other occasions - he has said that Nato
:23:08. > :23:10.should have basically aestablished itself in 1990, the Cold War
:23:11. > :23:13.was over, but instead of doing that, it expanded, it expanded both
:23:14. > :23:16.to the east and centre of Europe, which obviously Russia thought
:23:17. > :23:20.was perhaps something of a threat, I mean, he used this phrase
:23:21. > :23:25."Afghanistan is not part of the north Atlantic,
:23:26. > :23:28.so what is Nato going in and working That it has overreached itself
:23:29. > :23:34.massively from its Cold War days As far as I know, Mr Corbyn said
:23:35. > :23:49.that Nato should give up, go home, go away, and almost
:23:50. > :23:53.word-by-word, that's the message I receive from President Putin,
:23:54. > :23:56.who was then a Prime So there's no doubt that
:23:57. > :24:04.if Mr Corbyn were to be elected Prime Minister of the UK,
:24:05. > :24:07.there will be a big, It will really play
:24:08. > :24:13.into the hands of Mr Putin. Well, Corbyn would play
:24:14. > :24:18.into the hands of Putin. Let's talk about the other character
:24:19. > :24:20.elected, potentially electable politician,
:24:21. > :24:22.President Donald Trump. What do those words,
:24:23. > :24:25.President Donald Trump, do to you, Donald Trump has also raised doubts
:24:26. > :24:37.about the credibility of Nato. He has said that the American
:24:38. > :24:44.commitment to defending a Nato ally would be very much dependent
:24:45. > :24:51.on these allies' financial contributions to Nato,
:24:52. > :24:53.and of course, this also plays So, if in a hypothetical situation
:24:54. > :25:04.you would have a President Trump and a Prime Minister Corbyn of the UK,
:25:05. > :25:10.it would significantly weaken Nato. I would say it would weaken
:25:11. > :25:20.the whole western civilisation, I just wonder whether this
:25:21. > :25:22.new politics is terrifying you, because it is a threat
:25:23. > :25:25.to the established order that you have enjoyed and you like,
:25:26. > :25:28.but whether maybe the public are just fed up with what was
:25:29. > :25:30.going on before? There is no doubt that this
:25:31. > :25:35.is an anti-establishment policy, but returning to Mr Corbyn,
:25:36. > :25:42.I know that the Labour Party fancies the basic principles
:25:43. > :25:46.like solidarity, collectivity, None of these principles
:25:47. > :25:56.are fulfilled by Mr Corbyn in his statement, so actually
:25:57. > :25:59.I think he has betrayed the fundamental principles
:26:00. > :26:03.upon which Labour Party usually Thank you very much,
:26:04. > :26:07.Anders Fogh Rasmussen. And a spokesperson for Jeremy Corbyn
:26:08. > :26:14.told us this evening: "Britain's membership
:26:15. > :26:17.of Nato is not in dispute. The aim of both Britain and Nato
:26:18. > :26:20.should be to prevent conflict, and Parliament must have the final
:26:21. > :26:22.say on any military action. Those were the points
:26:23. > :26:25.Jeremy was emphasising Two months ago today,
:26:26. > :26:31.we were adjusting to the news It was not the decision
:26:32. > :26:36.that business wanted - indeed, the Leave campaign tried
:26:37. > :26:38.to turn big business support for Remain into
:26:39. > :26:45.an argument for getting out. Business, meanwhile,
:26:46. > :26:46.warned of some awful Well, among the big beasts
:26:47. > :26:50.of the British business landscape is Sir Martin Sorrell,
:26:51. > :26:52.chief executive of WPP, the world's biggest advertising
:26:53. > :26:55.and communications company. Their results released
:26:56. > :26:57.today are mainly driven by the rest of the world,
:26:58. > :27:00.but were up. And even the UK post-Brexit
:27:01. > :27:19.seemed to have perked up. You are big beast! Were getting
:27:20. > :27:24.mixed signals, April to June, we saw some softening in the UK which we
:27:25. > :27:31.attribute to the pre-Brexit concerns and July, one month, it was better.
:27:32. > :27:35.We saw a little perking up in the UK but having said that, we have the
:27:36. > :27:40.Bank of England correction on interest rates, they had to try to
:27:41. > :27:49.correct the concerned about the economy and of course the pound
:27:50. > :27:53.devalued from 1.5 to the dollar to 1.3 and the euro, and that gives us
:27:54. > :27:59.a huge tailwind with -- with foreign currency in the second half of this
:28:00. > :28:02.year. Your profits will go up as a result of the fall in the pound
:28:03. > :28:10.because you burn stuff in dollars? That is what we were clever enough
:28:11. > :28:14.to do, Eddie 6% of our business, 14% in the UK. That is not something I
:28:15. > :28:22.want to profit from, the weakness of the pound, it is basically the
:28:23. > :28:25.country's stock and it does not augur well unless we get our act
:28:26. > :28:31.together and act like the Germans. The Germans managed to export
:28:32. > :28:35.extremely effectively with the euro even strengthening historically
:28:36. > :28:38.although it has weakened against some currencies so it is really a
:28:39. > :28:46.question of behaving like the Germans. What do you want to happen?
:28:47. > :28:51.There is a dilemma about business certainty, quick or take a long time
:28:52. > :28:56.and work it out? We want certainty, I cannot speak for everybody but the
:28:57. > :29:02.general tone is wanting certainty, a quick fix and let us get on with our
:29:03. > :29:07.lives... The problem is the government wants to lengthen the
:29:08. > :29:13.process and I have been in the US for three weeks and reading the
:29:14. > :29:19.newspapers digitally, you read one weekend, we're not going to trigger
:29:20. > :29:23.Article 50 until the end of 2017, denied by Downing Street, the next
:29:24. > :29:30.week it is April, denied, will it end up somewhere between April
:29:31. > :29:34.and... They are thinking about it! It is a difficult situation. If I
:29:35. > :29:38.told you there was no chance of that never happen, if we slowed
:29:39. > :29:44.everything down, that would be a real dilemma for you! Were on the
:29:45. > :29:49.horns of a dilemma, you are right, I hope we do not fall through but
:29:50. > :29:54.having said that, my personal hope is that the process is so
:29:55. > :29:58.complicated and the results, frankly, are tepid over this
:29:59. > :30:03.two-year period because none two years from triggering Article 50,
:30:04. > :30:07.then we have to get 20 of the 27 member states to approve the terms
:30:08. > :30:10.so we will end up in front of the election, the comments of Owen Smith
:30:11. > :30:17.this morning were interesting. We will end up just before the election
:30:18. > :30:20.in 2020 with the terms agreed, the economy questioning whether it will
:30:21. > :30:25.do better, probably having a tough time because it will try to sort out
:30:26. > :30:28.these trade treaties, we outsource capability to Brussels and then one
:30:29. > :30:32.civil servant telling me before the vote it would take ten years to sort
:30:33. > :30:37.out these trade negotiations and maybe the Prime Minister, Theresa
:30:38. > :30:42.May, what say before the election we need another referendum to confirm
:30:43. > :30:44.what you voted for in 2016... You have seen the deal. Life is not as
:30:45. > :30:56.good as we thought! The Leave campaign managed to turn
:30:57. > :30:59.big business into a disadvantage, the Government thought, the support
:31:00. > :31:05.of big business is going to scare people away? It is not dissimilar to
:31:06. > :31:09.what we have seen on the left-wing Bernie Sanders in America and the
:31:10. > :31:13.right-wing with Donald Trump, and in lots of other, the Five Star
:31:14. > :31:19.Movement in Italy, what we have seen in Spain, what we have seen in
:31:20. > :31:23.Greece, the rise of populism which includes the rise against the
:31:24. > :31:27.factors and the institutions. Do you ever ask yourself, and you are the
:31:28. > :31:31.best paid person in Britain, basically, do you ask yourself
:31:32. > :31:36.onliness on the basis of performance. You said to yourself,
:31:37. > :31:39.have I got something to answer for here, it is partly we didn't share
:31:40. > :31:44.the proseeds of growth, we didn't listen to the parts of the country
:31:45. > :31:48.that haven't kept up with the advertisers in London. I take a bit
:31:49. > :31:53.of exception to that. I am talking about WPP I can't talk for everybody
:31:54. > :32:00.else. We started in 1985 with two people in a room. We have 200,000
:32:01. > :32:06.people directly or indirectly employed in the company in 113
:32:07. > :32:12.countries. We are talking about 600 to 800,000 people. I am very proud
:32:13. > :32:15.of the fact that 600-800,000 people rely for their livelihood on WPP.
:32:16. > :32:20.Long may it last, long may it increase, in the UK, we have gone up
:32:21. > :32:24.from 14,000 people to 18,000 people in the last four or five years when
:32:25. > :32:28.the Government and other people have been worried about employment. So
:32:29. > :32:35.the service sector of which we are a crucial part, I would argue, have
:32:36. > :32:38.been successful. So we have in that sense, shared it. The rewards for
:32:39. > :32:48.the company are based on performance. We went from ?1 million
:32:49. > :32:50.capitalisation to over ?22 billion. 50 percent bigger than any other
:32:51. > :32:55.competitor in our sector. Thank you. You can go back to great
:32:56. > :32:57.divisions of the past 15th century Lancastrians
:32:58. > :33:00.versus Yorkists, 16th century protestants versus catholics,
:33:01. > :33:01.17th century royalists versus roundheads, 19th century free
:33:02. > :33:04.traders vresus corn law supporters. The EU debate has felt
:33:05. > :33:06.like the 21st century equivalent. No civil war as yet,
:33:07. > :33:09.but are we getting over Katie Razzall has been to Stoke -
:33:10. > :33:12.actually to two Stokes - to talk to those on either side,
:33:13. > :33:15.who were out of sync What's it like to be squeezed out
:33:16. > :33:34.of the political debate To be out of kilter with most
:33:35. > :33:43.of the people you meet? On Referendum Day in Stoke-on-Trent,
:33:44. > :33:45.nearly 70% of voters It is one of many parts of Britain
:33:46. > :33:49.that voted overwhelmingly But in all of those places,
:33:50. > :33:53.there were some who formed I found it very difficult coming
:33:54. > :34:00.to work, because I was in tears. I felt like I had woken up
:34:01. > :34:04.to a world I didn't Based in one of Britain's last
:34:05. > :34:17.working Victorian potteries, Lisa Slinn specialises in ceramics,
:34:18. > :34:20.many of which are inspired by Europe On the actual day of the referendum,
:34:21. > :34:27.we had a small discussion around here, and I was basically
:34:28. > :34:32.the only Remainer. It was an incredible feeling
:34:33. > :34:34.being that much of To turn around and say
:34:35. > :34:38.we want to operate in isolation, that is not my view of myself
:34:39. > :34:41.as a European, it is not how My feeling about why people voted
:34:42. > :34:45.to leave here is overwhelmingly I am marrying an immigrant myself,
:34:46. > :35:10.in a couple of weeks' time. People didn't want
:35:11. > :35:11.to listen to anybody. People were so entrenched
:35:12. > :35:14.in their gut feelings and point of view they didn't listen
:35:15. > :35:18.to experts any more. There's happiness around
:35:19. > :35:22.you that you can't share in? I feel like I have this
:35:23. > :35:27.knowledge of doom, really, 150 miles south of Stoke-on-Trent
:35:28. > :35:42.is Stoke Newington, in the heart This is a place of Remainers,
:35:43. > :35:49.somewhere Lisa might feel at home. Hackney overwhelmingly supported
:35:50. > :35:51.Britain's staying in the EU. But even here, some voted
:35:52. > :35:59.against the status quo. Like I'm aware of being in a huge
:36:00. > :36:02.minority and have been ever since I realised how
:36:03. > :36:04.I was going to vote. Out is not the cool choice
:36:05. > :36:09.in Stoke Newington. No, it isn't, but I've never
:36:10. > :36:11.been cool, so... If there are prejudices
:36:12. > :36:13.about people who voted Leave, He is a gay, former restaurant
:36:14. > :36:20.manager, with an open world view. A lot of people who I don't know
:36:21. > :36:27.well, who I have met socially, That is because they think
:36:28. > :36:39.of you as the kind of person... They perceive me to be a person
:36:40. > :36:42.who would vote Remain, because they see me
:36:43. > :36:44.as someone who is literate, who can show an argument,
:36:45. > :36:46.and therefore they think what is this person who can string
:36:47. > :36:49.two words together doing voting out? And I think there are a lot
:36:50. > :36:52.of people who can string two words I had a conversation
:36:53. > :36:56.with a young waiter. He was patently a Remainer,
:36:57. > :36:58.and had nothing but disdain to say. I suspect he knew by the end
:36:59. > :37:02.of our conversation, What are you worried
:37:03. > :37:10.about people thinking? You are worried people will think
:37:11. > :37:14.you're a racist for voting out? And of course, my whole life
:37:15. > :37:25.experience is so contrary. I have been blessed by the people
:37:26. > :37:28.I have met, from Europe They make our country
:37:29. > :37:31.so incredibly diverse, and it saddens me so much that
:37:32. > :37:34.people think automatically that we are racist because we believe
:37:35. > :37:39.in the end of the EU. I do feel that the sadness
:37:40. > :37:42.of a a number of Londoners doesn't let them think
:37:43. > :37:44.about the possibilities We brought our Remain voter
:37:45. > :37:51.from Stoke-on-Trent to meet our Stoke
:37:52. > :37:56.Newington Outer. Could these Brexit minorities
:37:57. > :38:10.find any common ground? I hope it is nice to
:38:11. > :38:12.meet each other. I would love to share your wonderful
:38:13. > :38:16.view of the future, and your very optimistic view that you feel
:38:17. > :38:19.you have been liberated, that this Unfortunately, my gut instinct
:38:20. > :38:23.tells me it is only going to get For me, it is a no-brainer,
:38:24. > :38:27.that we can deal with the world, rather than just Europe,
:38:28. > :38:29.which has become What I hate is the fact my identity
:38:30. > :38:33.can be framed with either Every single person that I have
:38:34. > :38:46.spoken to, who I have asked for facts around why they voted
:38:47. > :38:49.to leave, the first thing they say They do not talk about
:38:50. > :38:53.the economics. Money has no relevance
:38:54. > :38:56.to me, I don't have any. I would like to look at it not
:38:57. > :38:59.through race, not through immigration, not through money,
:39:00. > :39:00.but through people. And the people who enrich our
:39:01. > :39:03.society - our borders are open. The fact you might have to jump
:39:04. > :39:06.a few hoops to go through them I think a lot of people
:39:07. > :39:11.are bewildered now. I think talking to people yesterday,
:39:12. > :39:14.I went back in to speak to some people and they said "We never
:39:15. > :39:16.thought it was really going Quite a few people said "I wish
:39:17. > :39:22.I hadn't voted to leave now." That seems to be the narrative,
:39:23. > :39:25.that people on the outside were misled, and they didn't -
:39:26. > :39:27.they weren't really informed and that therefore they
:39:28. > :39:33.made the wrong choice. Well, I don't think it is right
:39:34. > :39:36.at all to say about anyone's choice I am not an ogre, you're not an ogre
:39:37. > :39:43.we just happen to have contrary views, and those
:39:44. > :39:49.are as valid as each others'. He has made me feel a lot more
:39:50. > :39:52.reassured about people who very seriously thought about this
:39:53. > :39:54.life-changing decision, He very measured, he is very
:39:55. > :40:03.positive, he is a great believer in humanity,
:40:04. > :40:05.and I feel that I can relate to him Just one constructive conversation
:40:06. > :40:09.out of thousands that will need That's it for tonight, I'll be back
:40:10. > :40:27.in the seat tomorrow. But before we go, it's the Newsnight
:40:28. > :40:30.Prom now. Each day we are playing
:40:31. > :40:32.out with an artist from Tonight, soprano Lucy Crowe
:40:33. > :40:35.is singing for us. She is performing Mozart on Friday
:40:36. > :40:38.night at 7.30, and will be live on BBC Radio 3 and BBC Four then,
:40:39. > :40:41.but she's live for us now, not with Mozart, but with a folk
:40:42. > :40:44.song, She Moved Through the Fair. # My own love said to me
:40:45. > :41:00.My mother won't mind # And my father won't slight
:41:01. > :41:05.you for your lack of kind # Then she lay her hand on me
:41:06. > :41:15.And this she did say # It will not be long,
:41:16. > :41:22.love till our wedding day # She stepped away from me
:41:23. > :41:34.and she moved through the fair # And fondly I watched her move
:41:35. > :41:43.here and move there # And she went her way homeward
:41:44. > :41:52.with one star awake # As the swan in the evening
:41:53. > :42:04.move over the lake # Last night she came to me,
:42:05. > :42:15.my dead love came in # So softly she entered,
:42:16. > :42:24.her feet made no din # She came close beside me
:42:25. > :42:35.and this she did say # It will not be long, love, till
:42:36. > :43:14.our wedding day. # A few flashes and bangs coming from
:43:15. > :43:18.the skies overhead overnight. There will still be a few thunderstorms
:43:19. > :43:24.round on Thursday. A humid start, with low cloud on eastern coasts.
:43:25. > :43:27.More heavy thundery rain dropping in northern England a few showers
:43:28. > :43:29.drifting into Northern Ireland, later