:00:08. > :00:13.If the ordinary decent people are prepared to stand up and fight for
:00:14. > :00:19.what they believe in, we can overcome the big banks! We can
:00:20. > :00:26.overcome the multinationals! CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
:00:27. > :00:27.And we did it, we made June 23 our Independence Day when we smashed the
:00:28. > :00:29.establishment! You'll either find the scene
:00:30. > :00:33.exhilarating or terrifying. with populists simply exploiting
:00:34. > :00:39.public discontent? to talk about the people
:00:40. > :00:44.versus the establishment. as it prepares
:00:45. > :00:50.to select a new leader. I'm a working-class lad
:00:51. > :00:53.who works in a supermarket But also I've got other
:00:54. > :00:56.experiences in my life. I've ran a small wrestling
:00:57. > :01:01.promotion business. Also tonight, John Sweeney
:01:02. > :01:04.amid the aftershocks and distress When should a fatal mistake
:01:05. > :01:15.mean a jail sentence? And it is this open and just culture
:01:16. > :01:19.of learning from mistakes which I think is under threat
:01:20. > :01:32.by rising criminal prosecution. Two politicians - neither has been
:01:33. > :01:36.elected into government but both have had an electrifying effect
:01:37. > :01:40.on their national politics. Maybe you can call the creed
:01:41. > :01:44."antiestablishmentarianism". Not the longest word
:01:45. > :01:45.in the dictionary, Many on the side of Brexit
:01:46. > :01:51.will want to distance themselves from Nigel Farage
:01:52. > :01:53.linking their views But there is insurrection
:01:54. > :01:58.in the air. There are millions
:01:59. > :02:04.of ordinary Americans who've been let down,
:02:05. > :02:07.who've had a bad time. Who feel the political
:02:08. > :02:08.class in Washington Who feel so many
:02:09. > :02:15.of their representatives are politically correct parts
:02:16. > :02:18.of that liberal media elite. They feel people aren't standing up
:02:19. > :02:21.for them and they've actually in many cases given up
:02:22. > :02:24.on the whole electoral process. I think that you have
:02:25. > :02:29.a fantastic opportunity here. There's no doubt the phenomenon
:02:30. > :02:44.goes well beyond the UK and US, and politicians are struggling to
:02:45. > :02:47.keep up, ride the wave or resist it. In numerous countries to the east,
:02:48. > :02:52.populist leaders have won elections. In France right now,
:02:53. > :02:58.we're seeing a former President, Nicolas Sarkozy, run for office,
:02:59. > :03:00.picking up some of the nationalist message of the anti-establishment
:03:01. > :03:09.National Front. The great divide seems
:03:10. > :03:12.less about left or right, more about two cultures,
:03:13. > :03:16.a socially liberal, urban one who think the system has been
:03:17. > :03:21.rigged against the ordinary. Should we welcome the scene
:03:22. > :03:27.we saw last night? In a moment,
:03:28. > :03:29.we will explore in detail where Ukip is headed
:03:30. > :03:31.in this country. Joining me now are Douglas Carswell,
:03:32. > :03:35.the Ukip MP, and Claire Fox of the think-tank
:03:36. > :04:00.the Institute of Ideas. This is the difficulty, I think they
:04:01. > :04:08.are right that something is going on, and seeing them together, people
:04:09. > :04:11.are rising up, there is an antiestablishment mood, and when
:04:12. > :04:16.Brexit happened, it was against all the odds, it was having had all the
:04:17. > :04:21.big guns, the whole of the establishment threaten, bully and
:04:22. > :04:24.say, if you do this, and it was assumed, of course, that people
:04:25. > :04:29.would do what they were told. And they didn't, and so on AdSense Nigel
:04:30. > :04:35.Farage has got a point, and Trump does something similar. You could
:04:36. > :04:42.see how they are bedfellows. Putting them together as bedfellows,
:04:43. > :04:48.immediately everyone thinks she is to the right of Genghis Khan, on the
:04:49. > :04:52.side of Trump. What did you think, Donald? I am a bit puzzle and
:04:53. > :04:56.bemused that the party of Abraham Lincoln has managed to select as its
:04:57. > :05:01.candidate a thin-skinned narcissist who launched his bid for the White
:05:02. > :05:04.House by implying most Mexicans were murderers. I think it is
:05:05. > :05:08.extraordinary. The fact that someone like that can get so far tells me
:05:09. > :05:13.there is something seriously wrong with politics in the Beltway, in
:05:14. > :05:18.Washington, DC. How is it that a man like that can get so far? Clearly,
:05:19. > :05:21.people are voting for legitimate reasons, they feel a legitimate
:05:22. > :05:27.sense of anger against the political cartel, but I am not certain that
:05:28. > :05:30.Donald Trump is the answer! Nigel Farage and him linking the cause
:05:31. > :05:36.which you have been a champ in for many years, Brexit, Saint Brexit,
:05:37. > :05:42.Trump, this is all the same thing. -- saying. It is not the same thing.
:05:43. > :05:47.If the vote leave campaign, of which Nigel was no part, had put forward
:05:48. > :05:54.what you might call shock and awe tactics, I think we would have lost
:05:55. > :05:57.70-30 in Plaxton. Is there something a bit funny about Nigel Farage
:05:58. > :06:00.standing talking about the little people, standing next to a
:06:01. > :06:06.billionaire property developer buying his way into the election? It
:06:07. > :06:11.seems so... All these contradictions. Something that
:06:12. > :06:18.people have to understand is that there has been a sneer by the
:06:19. > :06:21.establishment for some time, a sneer about people's lives, about their
:06:22. > :06:26.capacities, about their abilities, and so we can say we do not
:06:27. > :06:29.understand this, he is defending the billionaires. But actually it was
:06:30. > :06:33.the billionaires who lined up against the people, and the people
:06:34. > :06:37.said, we have thought about this, we want some control. Just a final
:06:38. > :06:42.word, because Douglas made the point, why have they got Trump in
:06:43. > :06:54.the first place? It doesn't matter what is politics, they have lost
:06:55. > :06:57.control of their party because they have got no ideology, and he
:06:58. > :07:00.represents that. One of the reasons that Trump has proved so popular is,
:07:01. > :07:02.being independently wealthy, he is not in the pocket of vested
:07:03. > :07:06.interests. Apps we should look at the lobbyist who have not only
:07:07. > :07:13.stitched up democracy in America but have done the same through the EU.
:07:14. > :07:18.Oliver, these two have found reasons to be exhilarated, did you? I would
:07:19. > :07:22.not have interpreted Douglas's comments as exhilaration so much as
:07:23. > :07:30.sensitivity. He's found his former party leader extolling the benefits
:07:31. > :07:33.of someone who Douglas quite rightly describes as a thin-skinned
:07:34. > :07:37.narcissists. That is a meeting of minds, and I used the term mind in
:07:38. > :07:46.the most generic, rather than descriptive sense. This is a
:07:47. > :07:51.populist stand for, purportedly, people who have lost out through the
:07:52. > :07:55.forces of globalisation, but as you rightly implied, but they are,
:07:56. > :08:03.respectively, a billionaire and a public schoolboy. Claire is going to
:08:04. > :08:12.use the word sneering, I will use it on her behalf. Do ride may be the
:08:13. > :08:16.operative word. Should we not take take exception to the idea that this
:08:17. > :08:20.is the rednecks against the elite, on the contrary, the elite have
:08:21. > :08:25.rigged the monetary policy to make sure that people with assets become
:08:26. > :08:28.richer, they have rigged the banking system, the political system. It is
:08:29. > :08:32.not free trade globalist against protectionist rednecks, it is
:08:33. > :08:36.ordinary people rising up against people who have rigged the economic
:08:37. > :08:42.system in the interest of a small cartel. Not rigged at all. The
:08:43. > :08:50.single market is a rigged the system. Wedged within that obloquy
:08:51. > :08:55.is one single, reputable point, which is that monetary policy, the
:08:56. > :08:59.conduct of monetary policy since the financial crash has benefited those
:09:00. > :09:05.who own assets, rather than those who are dependent on incomes. That
:09:06. > :09:10.widening of inequality is extremely dangerous. Bad point is a point on
:09:11. > :09:14.which you will all agree, something has gone wrong and something needs
:09:15. > :09:22.to be done about it. Things and would have been worse without it. It
:09:23. > :09:27.also misses the point that this is not only about economics. There is
:09:28. > :09:35.this notion that everybody voted for Brexit, this idea, it is like, they
:09:36. > :09:40.are poor people who have not done very well out of the system. I
:09:41. > :09:44.think, again, that is not a sneer, but it is a condescension
:09:45. > :09:48.nonetheless. It is a sense that the poor people, maybe we need to help
:09:49. > :09:52.them out economically. The reason I say that is because I think it was
:09:53. > :09:55.more political than that. I think what we are underestimating here be
:09:56. > :10:05.that the establishment parties on left and right have collapsed, we
:10:06. > :10:08.are in a new phase historical, we do not know where it is going to go, it
:10:09. > :10:12.is scary, and the only people who are saying we have had enough of
:10:13. > :10:16.that, we're asserting ourselves. The rise of these radical movements
:10:17. > :10:20.throughout the world, it is not a rejection of modernity by these
:10:21. > :10:24.people. It is an expression of modernity, they do not have to live
:10:25. > :10:29.their lives according to the ideas of remote incompetents, people who
:10:30. > :10:34.cannot control borders. Oliver, you wrote a piece in the Times today
:10:35. > :10:38.saying that trade, globalisation, the stuff that people complain
:10:39. > :10:46.about, a lot of them do complain about it, it has delivered more than
:10:47. > :10:50.perhaps people recognise. It is a tremendously productive system, the
:10:51. > :11:00.system of economic openness. It has losers, you cannot have the sort of
:11:01. > :11:04.economic creativity, this productivity, without endangering
:11:05. > :11:07.national sovereignty, it rode in national sovereignty, and
:11:08. > :11:11.endangering some domestic industries and their workforces. The task of
:11:12. > :11:14.economic and social policy is to ensure that those who are left
:11:15. > :11:24.behind are compensated, even though the net benefit. He is very
:11:25. > :11:27.substantially positive. Folk are not angry because they have cheaper
:11:28. > :11:31.mobile phones, but because monetary policy means that houses are no
:11:32. > :11:36.longer affordable for young people. It is a lack of the free market that
:11:37. > :11:38.has caused this extraordinarily unfair monetary policy that has
:11:39. > :11:44.enriched a small queue and left the rest are unable to afford it. It is
:11:45. > :11:47.impossible to imagine that people could be excited about the
:11:48. > :11:52.possibility of creating an economic policy... Well, tell us what it is,
:11:53. > :11:59.because where is the beacon country that you would look to? By the
:12:00. > :12:03.populist have taken over and delivered nirvana? This is what is
:12:04. > :12:08.ironic, people will say to me, you know, all of our people in policy,
:12:09. > :12:11.we have been working with the EU, coming up with policies, anyone
:12:12. > :12:15.would think that the British economy had not been sluggish for some time.
:12:16. > :12:19.It is not as though it has been thriving. I am suggesting that
:12:20. > :12:25.delivering a modern, dynamic economy is not beyond... We can do it as a
:12:26. > :12:29.society, and possibly to save this is it, there is no alternative, we
:12:30. > :12:38.get what we are given, which is what we have been told, this is the end
:12:39. > :12:43.of it. We can be more creative and exciting. We are told we live in a
:12:44. > :12:47.free market capitalist system, but we have a system where capital is
:12:48. > :12:55.allocated not on the basis of a pricing mechanism but on the fiat of
:12:56. > :13:00.central bankers, it cannot hold. Do any of you think that Trump and
:13:01. > :13:04.Farage, between them, have, if you like, ideas... You have mentioned
:13:05. > :13:09.infrastructure spending, everyone is in favour of that now! But do they
:13:10. > :13:14.have specific things? No, they have not, it is a nonsense. Their
:13:15. > :13:20.political campaign, which is supposedly for the expropriated and
:13:21. > :13:23.those left behind is more an intellectual obscurity, it is
:13:24. > :13:28.anti-democratic, anti-science, and it is nativist and basically
:13:29. > :13:37.xenophobic. Which are under estimate what is going on with things like
:13:38. > :13:40.Podemos and ... Playing anger back people does not help, you have to
:13:41. > :13:44.look at what the great reformers did, Thatcher and Reagan, they
:13:45. > :13:50.offered a better way. If we caricature this movement, it will
:13:51. > :13:53.become worse, it we will be even more metropolitan elite. I'm going
:13:54. > :13:55.to thank both of you, we will be back with you in a moment.
:13:56. > :13:57.Well, Nigel Farage continues to be a talking point here,
:13:58. > :14:00.but a test of the long-term impact of his politics is
:14:01. > :14:04.The party has to carry the torch he has lit
:14:05. > :14:08.The leadership election is well under way, but I guess most people
:14:09. > :14:10.would struggle to pick any of the candidates
:14:11. > :14:13.The better known ones, Susanne Evans, Paul Nuttall,
:14:14. > :14:15.Steven Woolfe, are not on the ballot paper.
:14:16. > :14:18.We'll come back and talk to Douglas about the future
:14:19. > :14:20.of his party in a few minutes, but first the film-maker
:14:21. > :14:22.Nick Blakemore has gone behind the scenes,
:14:23. > :14:25.trying to get to know the candidates who are in the running
:14:26. > :14:42.It is a bit like a wedding, isn't it? Yeah, it is.
:14:43. > :14:44.Some of these events have been very, very well attended,
:14:45. > :14:53.Nice to see you, Bill, how are you doing, all right?
:14:54. > :14:54.Better journey today, beautiful location as well.
:14:55. > :14:57.It is a really nice location, really nice.
:14:58. > :14:59.And like I say, the lectern looks fantastic,
:15:00. > :15:22.As I understand it, Diane's campaign team have decided that she's better
:15:23. > :15:24.distancing herself from us and doing her own thing.
:15:25. > :15:27.I think it's quite an insult to the membership and totally
:15:28. > :15:30.I think Diane is disrespecting the members by not coming
:15:31. > :15:33.to these events, you know, I like Diane, I get on very
:15:34. > :15:35.well with Diane, I think she's a great person.
:15:36. > :15:38.But I think it would be better if she was here.
:15:39. > :15:41.The message tonight is that I am there with Westminster behind me,
:15:42. > :15:45.which is obviously a massive part of Ukip.
:15:46. > :15:52.First of all, you shouldn't be ashamed to say you love your
:15:53. > :15:55.country, and one of the reasons why I love our country is because
:15:56. > :15:58.it's the home of democracy and freedom of the people
:15:59. > :16:00.means no more of the establishment telling us what to do,
:16:01. > :16:02.no big state control, allowing people the freedom
:16:03. > :16:06.What I'm hoping to get out of it is just meeting the members,
:16:07. > :16:10.for those who haven't met me in the first 14 or 15 months.
:16:11. > :16:12.So just getting to know them again, getting them to understand
:16:13. > :16:16.that I really am grassroots, but, equally, I'm very much
:16:17. > :16:18.a leader with management and team-building experience.
:16:19. > :16:21.So I've got a lot to offer, but it's not going to be
:16:22. > :16:24.about the Lisa show, it will be about the team involved.
:16:25. > :16:25.Core message is leadership, management, team building,
:16:26. > :16:28.and the future of Ukip is grassroots and councillors.
:16:29. > :16:42.You don't answer the phone when you've got a boy!
:16:43. > :16:48.Ten seconds left, I shall start ringing my glass furiously
:16:49. > :16:51.so that they know they are close to being out of time.
:16:52. > :16:53.I shall just take my seat, and then we'll call
:16:54. > :16:56.The current Labour scheme seems to be internationalist,
:16:57. > :17:04.anti-monarchy, anti-armed forces, and anti-Judaeo-Christian.
:17:05. > :17:06.We offer the absolute opposite to that, and I think
:17:07. > :17:11.and could be a complete shoo-in for the old Labour areas,
:17:12. > :17:14.but we need to get out there and say hello!
:17:15. > :17:17.We've got to go and say hello so they're not frightened of us.
:17:18. > :17:20.They've heard through the Labour machine that we are the big
:17:21. > :17:22.bogeymen who hate them and hate everything...
:17:23. > :17:26.I think the big thing we need to do in this party that needs to be
:17:27. > :17:32.communication, communication, communication.
:17:33. > :17:34.I think I'm someone who's got real-life experience,
:17:35. > :17:39.I'm a working-class lad, you know, who works in a supermarket,
:17:40. > :17:42.But also I've got other experiences in my life,
:17:43. > :17:44.you know, I ran a small wrestling promotion business.
:17:45. > :17:56.There's a video in the public domain where you are quoted as saying,
:17:57. > :17:58.I think, "I'm better than you, cleverer than you,
:17:59. > :18:00.and more importantly I've got more money than you."
:18:01. > :18:04.Yes, that's wrestling character interviews.
:18:05. > :18:13.understand anything about that at all.
:18:14. > :18:15.What I would say is wrestling characters are actors, you know,
:18:16. > :18:22.You know, we wouldn't get Leonardo DiCaprio and hauled over
:18:23. > :18:24.the coals about character comments that the Wolf Of Wall Street
:18:25. > :18:28.I don't want to tell people what they should or shouldn't wear,
:18:29. > :18:31.but if somebody wearing a crash helmet, a hoodie or a balaclava
:18:32. > :18:34.is asked to show their face, then the same should apply
:18:35. > :18:39.I do worry sometimes about the way this comes across,
:18:40. > :18:43.and I think when we get into these issues, I think a lot of the time
:18:44. > :18:49.Where we must never go is singling out one part of the community,
:18:50. > :18:51.one faith, and singling them out for special attention.
:18:52. > :19:01.You talked in the speech about demonising people,
:19:02. > :19:06.was it wise to pose for photographs with two knitted golliwogs?
:19:07. > :19:09.That was way back when, and actually the whole reason
:19:10. > :19:12.for that was part of a campaign against political correctness.
:19:13. > :19:15.Every time now I try and talk policy, I end up talking
:19:16. > :19:19.People find those images grossly offensive.
:19:20. > :19:27.and frankly if anyone is offended by an image of a doll,
:19:28. > :19:40.I'd suggest to them they need to get out a bit more.
:19:41. > :19:49.The hustings are a complete waste of time.
:19:50. > :19:55.they've descended into what I call a bun fight, and it's just not...
:19:56. > :19:58.But anyway, look, you must let me move on.
:19:59. > :20:01.Can I just ask you a few questions?
:20:02. > :20:07.Can you just tell me very quickly what you are not
:20:08. > :20:10.I've developed my own strategy, and in fact that gentleman
:20:11. > :20:13.I was just speaking to a few minutes ago was congratulating
:20:14. > :20:17.Your leadership colleagues said to me last night that, "Diane,
:20:18. > :20:24.I think what your actually voicing is more just
:20:25. > :20:27.what I've got used to now, which is the sort of insult
:20:28. > :20:29.and really quite unpleasant behaviour that is coming back
:20:30. > :20:36.I haven't adopted that tactic, I'm trying to rise above it,
:20:37. > :20:38.I'm appealing to my members and activists to come
:20:39. > :20:41.and hear what I've got to say, put me on the spot with questions,
:20:42. > :20:43.and if that is not actually being a team player
:20:44. > :20:52.and showing leadership, I really don't know what is.
:20:53. > :20:55.In case you were wondering why we didn't hear more from Diane James
:20:56. > :20:56.about the substance of her campaign there,
:20:57. > :20:59.Newsnight wasn't allowed to film her event once it started.
:21:00. > :21:13.Let's talk about your party, we have done the big picture. Are you happy
:21:14. > :21:18.with the range of candidates? I think it would have been better if
:21:19. > :21:25.we had some slightly taller poppies but not all of the taller ones made
:21:26. > :21:29.it onto the ballot paper for various reasons, some self-inflicted and
:21:30. > :21:33.some inflicted by others but this is a huge opportunity, this is the
:21:34. > :21:38.possibility of running the third largest party in the country and it
:21:39. > :21:41.is potentially a massive opportunity, look at the state of
:21:42. > :21:45.the Labour Party in meltdown, the lib -- Liberal Democrats are on a
:21:46. > :21:49.holiday from history and they may never come back and if we need to
:21:50. > :21:54.seize this opportunity we need a leader or changes the tone quite
:21:55. > :22:01.dramatically. And also has a much bigger policy repertoire. Who is
:22:02. > :22:05.that? You have not endorsed anyone. I did not always get on particularly
:22:06. > :22:09.well with the last leader and I will make a special effort to get on with
:22:10. > :22:14.the new one! I owe it to support whoever the members vote for. You
:22:15. > :22:18.owe it to the members to tell them who you think should not have the
:22:19. > :22:22.job, you have outlined a job description for who should fit the
:22:23. > :22:28.bill and let us be honest, Bill Etheridge, that chap once a
:22:29. > :22:33.referendum on the death penalty, he described Hitler as a magnetic,
:22:34. > :22:42.forceful leader. There is no way that you could say he is your... The
:22:43. > :22:45.way I would put this is, I think Bill demonstrated this, if you talk
:22:46. > :22:49.about things that he has talked about, it does not really matter
:22:50. > :22:54.what you say, it is not what you say, it is what people here and that
:22:55. > :22:58.needs to change. One of the reasons we only managed to win one single
:22:59. > :23:03.seat at the General Election and why we haemorrhaged one third of
:23:04. > :23:07.supporters is because we used shock and offal tactics and they put up a
:23:08. > :23:10.lot of swing voters. In one of your blogs you said one of the questions
:23:11. > :23:16.are leaders need to answer is what is Ukip for? Good question, you will
:23:17. > :23:23.offer Brexit? What are you for? We have the EU cartel, that group at
:23:24. > :23:26.the top of the upper echelons of Whitehall but there are cartels in
:23:27. > :23:31.the nooks and crannies of the lives of people, look at the family court
:23:32. > :23:35.system, Monetary Policy Committee the banking system, these are
:23:36. > :23:39.cartels that need to be broken and politics itself in this country, one
:23:40. > :23:44.of the reasons there is this mood of anti-politics anger is politics is
:23:45. > :23:47.basically a rigged system. We think of it as competitive, in most seats
:23:48. > :23:53.in this country there is no real contest as to who will be the next
:23:54. > :23:56.Member of Parliament, people are parachuted in, people like George
:23:57. > :24:02.Osborne or Ed Miliband, when he ran, people want different politics when
:24:03. > :24:07.those they sent to parliament actually answer to the voters. Open
:24:08. > :24:13.primary candidate selection. You want political reform. I was on
:24:14. > :24:19.fire, Bill described Hitler as a magnetic, forceful leader, not
:24:20. > :24:23.speaker. The truth is, the party you describe, the reformist agenda, is
:24:24. > :24:29.not actually the same as the Ukip one. Is it important for British
:24:30. > :24:34.politics to have Ukip party rather like the Nigel Farage Ukip party and
:24:35. > :24:38.which represents a strand of UK opinion and has given voice to a lot
:24:39. > :24:43.of people. You are in a different place. The results of the last
:24:44. > :24:47.election spoke for themselves. I did not bang on about Europe and
:24:48. > :24:51.immigration, I made a point of saying that first and second
:24:52. > :24:56.generation Britons were as much a part of this country as anyone else.
:24:57. > :25:02.If you play the anger of people back at them, you don't aggregate votes
:25:03. > :25:06.and win seats. We desperately need a party that can break this cosy
:25:07. > :25:12.cartel. Are you just getting in the way of Ukip? As Ukip members want
:25:13. > :25:19.the party to be? By banging on about the things you are banging on about
:25:20. > :25:26.rather than what they want? I think the reason things have gone wrong in
:25:27. > :25:29.politics is and is not enough radical liberalism and Ukip could be
:25:30. > :25:33.the vehicle to break these vested interest and cartels that
:25:34. > :25:37.non-politics for their convenience. It could certainly sees that. If
:25:38. > :25:40.Ukip tries to become a British version of some of those angry
:25:41. > :25:46.nativist parties in continental Europe, it will rightly fail and it
:25:47. > :25:50.would deserve to. And you would have to leave? If the leader to get in
:25:51. > :25:53.that direction? The Parliamentary party would take a vote on that.
:25:54. > :25:57.Douglas Carswell, thank you very much indeed.
:25:58. > :26:00.In the earthquake struck region of Italy, there were the all too
:26:01. > :26:03.And, I'm afraid, also there was the predicted rise
:26:04. > :26:06.Victims have been identified from numerous countries -
:26:07. > :26:08.we know from local officials that at least three British
:26:09. > :26:12.Five Romanians and at least one Spanish person are also known
:26:13. > :26:16.One Polish woman who was in Amatrice and survived described
:26:17. > :26:22."I will remember till the end of my life this noise,
:26:23. > :26:25.the evil murmur of moving walls", she said.
:26:26. > :26:27.Well, our reporter John Sweeney was in nearby Perugia
:26:28. > :26:29.when the quake struck, you might have heard him
:26:30. > :26:37.He's been looking at the aftermath today.
:26:38. > :26:40.After the quake come the after-shocks.
:26:41. > :26:44.Tremors of the earth and of the heart.
:26:45. > :26:47.This woman's family home is in Pescara, a little town on a
:26:48. > :27:09.Her whole family was in the house when the quake struck.
:27:10. > :27:12.Her aunt and uncle are still missing.
:27:13. > :27:22.This entire hillside, all these people's homes,
:27:23. > :27:27.crashing down, masonry, bricks, rocks, concrete, boulders.
:27:28. > :27:30.Imagine how much noise that must have made while the whole
:27:31. > :27:42.In Pescara, 17 dead is the official count.
:27:43. > :27:47.Locals fear many more may have perished.
:27:48. > :27:53.The first people to turn up at many sites like best are are not police
:27:54. > :28:06.or firemen but volunteer rescue workers. How many people died? We
:28:07. > :28:14.don't know. Because the city had many inhabitants for the summer
:28:15. > :28:18.holiday. People coming back. I talked to a person who lived here
:28:19. > :28:27.and is said to me that there was about half of the city full of
:28:28. > :28:32.people inside. On the other side of the river, rescue work continues
:28:33. > :28:36.while hopes of finding survivors face. One person told the BBC that
:28:37. > :28:38.at least three British citizens were amongst those killed.
:28:39. > :28:40.Geologically, it is tearing itself apart.
:28:41. > :28:42.The tectonic plates underneath the central mountain chain,
:28:43. > :28:47.Earthquakes that kill people in their hundreds
:28:48. > :28:52.But will the quake that did for Pescara cause
:28:53. > :29:02.Some may use the quake as ammunition against
:29:03. > :29:04.Prime Minister Renzi, who faces a tricky referendum
:29:05. > :29:09.later this year and may go the way of our own David Cameron.
:29:10. > :29:13.But in 12 months which has seen a chain of terror attacks,
:29:14. > :29:18.the earthquake in Italy is a reminder that nature, too,
:29:19. > :29:25.can be a mass killer of the utmost cruelty.
:29:26. > :29:30.The Labour Party has a small problem - you knew that.
:29:31. > :29:32.This, though, is about their conference next month.
:29:33. > :29:34.They don't have anyone to do the security.
:29:35. > :29:36.Our policy editor, Chris Cook, is with me.
:29:37. > :29:43.Chris, this all started with Labour saying we don't want to use G4S, we
:29:44. > :29:49.are boycotting them, and they have done it in the past. That is right,
:29:50. > :29:55.so this was a slightly unusual beating last year of the NEC, where
:29:56. > :29:57.they decided they wouldn't use G4S, their long-standing security
:29:58. > :30:01.partner, for security at the conference, which is quite a big
:30:02. > :30:07.operation. There are lots of scanners. This was unusual for a few
:30:08. > :30:12.reasons. First, it was because, as you say, G4S invested in Israel.
:30:13. > :30:19.Labour does not have a position of being against companies who do that,
:30:20. > :30:23.it is not boycotting, but the NEC in this case decided that it would. G4S
:30:24. > :30:26.had already announced they were going to pull out of Israel, so
:30:27. > :30:31.having used them for many years when they were investing in Israel,
:30:32. > :30:35.slightly peculiar timing. But it has left them without a partner to do
:30:36. > :30:42.the security. So they went to another company, which were
:30:43. > :30:48.involved, but unfortunately, in an industrial dispute with the GMB, a
:30:49. > :30:54.major union affiliated to Labour, and that meant they had the prospect
:30:55. > :31:01.of their own security officers being picketed by their union. That is not
:31:02. > :31:10.going to work! So that would not have worked. So where does that
:31:11. > :31:15.leave them? Plan C is they go back to G4S, and they have said no, we do
:31:16. > :31:21.not have time to do it. So they have to come up with something else, plan
:31:22. > :31:24.D, we will call it. It is likely, given the enormous political
:31:25. > :31:27.embarrassment of a party that cannot put on its own conference, given
:31:28. > :31:31.they have got lots of money, not least from the leadership contest,
:31:32. > :31:41.it is likely they will come up with a solution, it would be unimaginable
:31:42. > :31:44.for them not to be able to hold the conference. But it is the latest
:31:45. > :31:45.example of things not going right for the Labour Party, when it rains,
:31:46. > :31:47.it pours in politics. Tomorrow at a court in Ipswich,
:31:48. > :31:50.a judge will hand down a sentence on an optometrist
:31:51. > :31:52.who has been found guilty The conviction is one
:31:53. > :31:56.of manslaughter by gross negligence. a dangerous condition
:31:57. > :31:59.in the boy's eyes, and because it went unnoticed,
:32:00. > :32:01.the boy went untreated, although rarely with such
:32:02. > :32:06.a ghastly consequence, but some professionals worry
:32:07. > :32:08.that there is no clear line between an understandable mistake
:32:09. > :32:13.and an appalling act of negligence. Secunder Kermani reports
:32:14. > :32:15.on the debate over how far professionals
:32:16. > :32:17.should be held responsible In court, prosecutors said
:32:18. > :32:25.there were obvious abnormalities in both of eight-year-old
:32:26. > :32:27.Vinnie Barker's eyes. That should have led
:32:28. > :32:32.to an urgent referral to treat The jury found that his optometrist,
:32:33. > :32:38.Honey Rose's conduct Each is based on unique
:32:39. > :32:45.circumstances and each one But they do raise questions
:32:46. > :32:50.about how we deal with fatal In one of the most high profile
:32:51. > :32:57.cases, surgeon David Sellu was found Following that conviction,
:32:58. > :33:04.a group of 300 doctors wrote a letter raising concerns
:33:05. > :33:06.about what they claim are increasing incidents of doctors
:33:07. > :33:08.being investigated That increase is disputed and
:33:09. > :33:17.we are talking about low numbers. Since December 2014 there have been
:33:18. > :33:20.13 prosecutions that we know of relating to the deaths
:33:21. > :33:33.of seven patients. A number had been dismissed by
:33:34. > :33:39.judges before even reaching a jury. There has been a big push that
:33:40. > :33:41.all health workers should declare and be open and honest
:33:42. > :33:43.about mistakes and that when something goes wrong,
:33:44. > :33:46.as it does in healthcare, they should talk openly
:33:47. > :33:48.with relatives and patients Because what we know is,
:33:49. > :33:51.that is the thing that And it is this open and just culture
:33:52. > :33:56.of learning from mistakes which I think is under threat
:33:57. > :34:02.by rising criminal prosecution. Bethany Bowen was five years old
:34:03. > :34:05.when she died during an operation. Surgeons had decided to use
:34:06. > :34:08.a new piece of equipment that had never been used before
:34:09. > :34:13.on a child in the UK. Her mother says that criminal
:34:14. > :34:16.prosecutions should only ever be considered when it is clear
:34:17. > :34:20.the individual is at fault, It is the wider culture and that
:34:21. > :34:25.needs to be looked at more carefully But if the doctor turns up
:34:26. > :34:30.and blatantly disregards the rules and the culture and environment
:34:31. > :34:34.and doesn't listen to the people around him when they are telling
:34:35. > :34:36.him, maybe, actually stop, don't do this -
:34:37. > :34:39.then that is when the doctor needs The CPS defines gross
:34:40. > :34:51.negligence manslaughter as... It says the defendant
:34:52. > :34:53.must not have done what a reasonable person
:34:54. > :34:56.would do in their position. This is a law that applies
:34:57. > :35:00.to everyone, private individuals Construction industries or engineers
:35:01. > :35:08.or architects or even people Everyone has to be held to account
:35:09. > :35:15.if they are undertaking an activity where there is a risk to others,
:35:16. > :35:20.and so the question has to be asked as to whether healthcare
:35:21. > :35:22.professions should be treated during what was meant to be
:35:23. > :35:31.a routine operation. But he thinks the medical profession
:35:32. > :35:34.needs to learn lessons from how mistakes are looked at in other
:35:35. > :35:41.fields, like aviation and rail. Most safety-critical industries
:35:42. > :35:44.aspire one where you look at a situation
:35:45. > :35:49.and say, was this inadvertent human error where we can help to redesign
:35:50. > :35:52.a system to help make it better? Or was it some form of recklessness
:35:53. > :35:55.or gross negligence? And that doesn't matter, really,
:35:56. > :35:58.whether we're talking about a front-line individual
:35:59. > :36:01.or a senior executive. How do you draw that line between
:36:02. > :36:04.what is inadvertent human error So, the line, the idea of a hard
:36:05. > :36:12.line between inadvertent human error and gross negligence actually
:36:13. > :36:14.doesn't really exist. the jury took just two hours
:36:15. > :36:22.to convict his optometrist. For them, in this case
:36:23. > :36:26.the line was completely clear. In a statement,
:36:27. > :37:08.Vinnie's parents told us... The CPS say the threshold for
:37:09. > :37:11.prosecutions of gross negligence manslaughter is extremely high
:37:12. > :37:14.and most cases never reach court. For some, these cases
:37:15. > :37:18.are about accountability For others, they could risk
:37:19. > :37:40.leaving the workforce Secunder Kermani there. A little
:37:41. > :37:48.look at the newspapers before we go, the Times leading on an interesting
:37:49. > :37:52.story about changing Britain, Poles now Britain's biggest migrant group,
:37:53. > :37:59.overtaking Indians, who always arriving with the Irish. EU migrants
:38:00. > :38:06.have topped 3 million for the first time. The Guardian leads an NHS
:38:07. > :38:09.plans to fight the deficit with cuts, hospital bosses running up
:38:10. > :38:16.plans for closures. The Daily Telegraph takes the same story, NHS
:38:17. > :38:21.takes axe to hospital units and tells us that grammar schools have
:38:22. > :38:25.bucked the falling trend in GCSEs. The Daily Mirror leads and the
:38:26. > :38:26.Italian earthquake and news that a British boy is lost in what they
:38:27. > :38:28.call quake horror. Well, that's almost all
:38:29. > :38:30.we've got time for tonight, but all this week we've been treated
:38:31. > :38:33.to a piece of the Proms. The Multi Storey Orchestra
:38:34. > :38:35.will be playing, but, you've guessed it,
:38:36. > :38:39.in a municipal car park in Peckham. That's on Saturday 3rd September,
:38:40. > :38:43.and they'll be live on Radio 3 then. But tonight here for us
:38:44. > :38:46.from the orchestra a version of Fugue from Violin
:38:47. > :38:53.Sonata in G minor on the marimba. MUSIC: Fugue from Violin Sonata
:38:54. > :40:43.in G Minor by Bach Good evening. It has been a mixed
:40:44. > :40:48.sort of day, Thursday, some sunshine, overnight heavy downpours
:40:49. > :40:49.and thunderstorms. By the time we get to