:00:00. > :00:08.There are this many people in the Cabinet, and probably
:00:09. > :00:11.about this many different ideas as to what Brexit means.
:00:12. > :00:14.But is the Government at last inching towards a single view
:00:15. > :00:19.More single market, less immigration,
:00:20. > :00:24.It's a fight as to what the priority should be,
:00:25. > :00:26.a fight that matters to business and the City.
:00:27. > :00:29.We'll ask if our financial services can flourish
:00:30. > :00:37.Also tonight, a Polish man beaten to death in Essex.
:00:38. > :00:40.Could it be the latest example of hate crime post-Brexit?
:00:41. > :00:43.And what does it tell us about anti-social behaviour?
:00:44. > :00:49.To be honest, since Brexit, I think all the British people,
:00:50. > :00:51.the Brits here, they think they've got a green light here
:00:52. > :01:00.You know, they feel very, kind of, secure to be racist.
:01:01. > :01:04.Ian McEwan on his new novel, in which the narrator
:01:05. > :01:11.I like to share a glass with my mother.
:01:12. > :01:15.You may never have experienced, or you will have
:01:16. > :01:20.forgotten, a good burgundy, her favourite, or a good sancerre, also
:01:21. > :01:31.her favourite, decanted through a healthy placenta.
:01:32. > :01:36.This morning, the best official line we had on our future place in Europe
:01:37. > :01:38.was yet another reiteration of the grand tautology,
:01:39. > :01:44.But that was before the Cabinet met at Chequers to talk things through.
:01:45. > :01:49.Well, the line had barely moved on, to be honest.
:01:50. > :01:51.The official statement said, "We're looking for controls
:01:52. > :01:54.on immigration, but we also want a good deal for trade."
:01:55. > :01:59.If that seems less than clear, it's because there is a conflict
:02:00. > :02:02.between what kind of participation we have in the single market and how
:02:03. > :02:04.much control we have over our own rules and borders.
:02:05. > :02:09.It's the fundamental conflict, because what the single market
:02:10. > :02:11.actually aspires to be is a vast borderless zone of unified standards
:02:12. > :02:18.For platinum access to that market, you have to give up some control.
:02:19. > :02:22.So how is the debate inside the Cabinet over
:02:23. > :02:24.what we should want from the EU panning out?
:02:25. > :02:29.Our political editor Nick Watt is with me.
:02:30. > :02:38.I gave some semblance, some sense of the official statements. What do you
:02:39. > :02:42.know about what went on? Well, there's a growing confidence in the
:02:43. > :02:46.Cabinet, that the three Brexiteers, the ministers charged with taking
:02:47. > :02:49.the UK out of EU, will reach agreement, and agreed UK position in
:02:50. > :02:54.the coming months which will allow Theresa May, early next year, to
:02:55. > :02:58.trigger the formal process, Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty to take us
:02:59. > :03:02.out of the European Union. Boris Johnson, David Davis and Liam Fox
:03:03. > :03:05.are not exactly bosom buddies but Cabinet ministers were struck today
:03:06. > :03:09.by the way in which they were pulling in the same direction. They
:03:10. > :03:13.were clearly working together. They met last week and they are going to
:03:14. > :03:17.have regular meetings. As one senior source said to me, they may loathe
:03:18. > :03:23.each other but they sink or swim together. So they have their ducks
:03:24. > :03:28.in a row, it seems. Now the principles, what is the UK objective
:03:29. > :03:32.out of all of this? Two important points from the Downing Street
:03:33. > :03:36.statement you mentioned, first, they are saying there will be controls on
:03:37. > :03:41.immigration from within the European Union when we leave but they hope to
:03:42. > :03:45.do it in a way that will ensure we can still trade in goods and
:03:46. > :03:48.services. Maybe that is wishful thinking. The second big thing they
:03:49. > :03:52.are saying is that Theresa May is not looking for an off-the-shelf
:03:53. > :03:56.solution, the Norway option or the Turkish option, she is looking for
:03:57. > :04:00.what has been described as a bespoke option. This is a British deal,
:04:01. > :04:04.again, maybe wishful thinking but the thinking is that the UK is the
:04:05. > :04:08.world's fifth-largest economy and we are somewhat larger than turkey and
:04:09. > :04:11.Norway and perhaps that will give us some weight in the negotiations.
:04:12. > :04:18.That in a way expresses the objectives. Where do they think this
:04:19. > :04:22.is going to end up? What is the deal going to look like? That is the
:04:23. > :04:26.crucial question. What I was really struck by today was the feeling that
:04:27. > :04:30.the UK in these negotiations should perhaps not be too fussed about
:04:31. > :04:33.access to the single market. The Remain supporters say they have do
:04:34. > :04:37.have as much access to the single market as possible although that
:04:38. > :04:39.will be limited if there are controls on immigration.
:04:40. > :04:44.Essentially, what I was hearing is don't forget that the single market
:04:45. > :04:48.largely covers trade in goods, not so much on services, which makes up
:04:49. > :04:52.the larger part of the UK economy. What some people have been saying to
:04:53. > :04:56.me is that perhaps the UK could be clever in those negotiations,
:04:57. > :04:59.perhaps it could spring a surprise by, for example, not sounding too
:05:00. > :05:04.fussed about the single market. Remember we were talking last night
:05:05. > :05:07.about passport rights, the ability to trade your financial services
:05:08. > :05:09.around the European Union, what I'm hearing tonight on that development
:05:10. > :05:15.is that Philip Hammond is essentially saying, our EU partners
:05:16. > :05:19.will assume that will be number one on the Chancellor's list, on his
:05:20. > :05:23.shopping list in the negotiations. But what if it's not? What if he
:05:24. > :05:27.does not make a big buzz about it? Maybe the UK could spring a surprise
:05:28. > :05:31.and find a clever and imaginative way of protecting financial services
:05:32. > :05:32.without passporting. Thank you for joining us.
:05:33. > :05:34.Well, it is clear that a central issue is passporting.
:05:35. > :05:36.It matters to financial services more than most,
:05:37. > :05:39.being the right of companies based here to treat the whole of the EU
:05:40. > :05:44.with no new licensing or regulatory requirements.
:05:45. > :05:51.Is this crucial, or can we swap the passport for a driving licence?
:05:52. > :05:55.Or some other similar document that has more or less the same effect.
:05:56. > :05:58.With me now is Vicky Pryce, the economist and former advisor
:05:59. > :06:00.to the Department of Trade and Industry and, from Guernsey,
:06:01. > :06:13.Good evening. First, explain passporting, financial services, the
:06:14. > :06:18.single market, what it means to be in it as opposed to be working from
:06:19. > :06:22.outside it. The first thing to say is that financial services are very
:06:23. > :06:26.important for the UK economy. Yes, they may not be a perfect single
:06:27. > :06:30.market in financial services yet across the EU, but actually, it will
:06:31. > :06:33.benefit hugely from greater integration and that is taking
:06:34. > :06:38.place. If we are not part of it, we will lose out. The most important
:06:39. > :06:42.thing to bear in mind, too, is that when you do have this passporting
:06:43. > :06:47.ability, what it actually means is that any firm, any financial
:06:48. > :06:51.services firm that settles in the UK all starts operating in the UK can
:06:52. > :06:55.then sell its services all across the EU without having to ask for
:06:56. > :07:00.permission, pass through new regulatory tests but of course, it
:07:01. > :07:04.still has to comply with EU regulations. But it can do that
:07:05. > :07:09.freely from wherever it is, in other words, lots of firms that come from
:07:10. > :07:14.abroad, the US, for example or Switzerland, set up here and then
:07:15. > :07:18.can basically operate like a EU organisation. So they can use London
:07:19. > :07:22.as a base for financial services across the EU? That sounds pretty
:07:23. > :07:26.important. Is it? Yes, it is quite important and clearly we want to be
:07:27. > :07:30.able to trade in financial services with Europe. There are ways to do it
:07:31. > :07:34.without the passporting system. There's a thing called equivalents,
:07:35. > :07:37.which is where the EU reckons that countries are following rules which
:07:38. > :07:40.are pretty much the same as their own and they let them into the
:07:41. > :07:45.market on that basis. Places like Canada and Japan are actually
:07:46. > :07:51.trading in some financial services on that basis now. It is likely we
:07:52. > :07:53.will have to go down the equivalents route is politically, we are not
:07:54. > :08:01.allowed to be part of the single market with the immigration controls
:08:02. > :08:06.that seem firmly attached to it we are in a very possible financial
:08:07. > :08:12.services base which has immigration controls and essentially free trade
:08:13. > :08:15.into the EU. -- so we can be in a very strong financial services base.
:08:16. > :08:19.But the banks in London will not be happy to think they will have the
:08:20. > :08:22.same axis into Europe as the Japanese or the Americans. That is
:08:23. > :08:29.quite a step back from where they have been. -- same access. Not
:08:30. > :08:31.really. They have thrived for a long time in a highly competitive
:08:32. > :08:35.position with those countries and there's no reason they should not
:08:36. > :08:39.continue to do the same. I think the banks are moving to a position where
:08:40. > :08:43.many of them don't want the passport. They would prefer
:08:44. > :08:48.passporting because that means that London can be a bit different to the
:08:49. > :08:53.rest of Europe which would be an international advantage elsewhere
:08:54. > :08:58.and perhaps less attractively, would enable them to dodge the bonus cap.
:08:59. > :09:03.This is the disadvantage of the passport. It says we are British and
:09:04. > :09:06.single market and we have a minimum standard of regulation. If you have
:09:07. > :09:10.this kind of equivalence arrangement, you can be operating on
:09:11. > :09:16.their rules, there, but have different rules when you are
:09:17. > :09:21.operating in China. Is that good for London as a financial centre? There
:09:22. > :09:24.are different rules depending on where you operating. It's a fact in
:09:25. > :09:27.any case. The interesting thing is that if you were trying to leave the
:09:28. > :09:31.single market because we think it is actually very burdensome and has
:09:32. > :09:35.regulations we don't like, it is worth bearing in mind that the UK is
:09:36. > :09:38.considerably more tightly regulated in the financial sector than Europe.
:09:39. > :09:43.If anything, what we have been worrying about for quite some time
:09:44. > :09:46.is that we be forced to lower our own regulatory environment in order
:09:47. > :09:50.to fit in with what goes on in Europe, rather than the other way
:09:51. > :09:54.around. You are speaking from Guernsey, of course, which is an
:09:55. > :09:59.offshore centre, if you like. It is very different to London, isn't it?
:10:00. > :10:02.I wonder whether the analogy of you all right, it's OK come your
:10:03. > :10:06.offshore and you can trade into it, is going to work for something the
:10:07. > :10:12.size of London? It is far from a perfect analogy. We are a lot
:10:13. > :10:17.smaller but we do thrive. I don't think the banks are going to be too
:10:18. > :10:23.worried about operating on this equivalence basis. The problem with
:10:24. > :10:28.equivalence and similar things is that they are determined by what is
:10:29. > :10:32.a very bureaucratic, slow system in Europe. It might take three years
:10:33. > :10:36.for us to be deemed equivalent, even though today we are obviously
:10:37. > :10:41.totally equivalent. We have the same rules as the EU. It is not a perfect
:10:42. > :10:45.solution. Equivalence requires lots of political will to make it happen
:10:46. > :10:50.quickly. Do you think the Europeans will kind of want London to be a big
:10:51. > :10:57.financial player for the residual EU? Will they say they have to make
:10:58. > :11:00.it work for London because London is the finance provider? We know full
:11:01. > :11:04.well that London is indeed the European centre, if you like, for
:11:05. > :11:07.financial services and we have such a huge attraction in terms of all
:11:08. > :11:10.sorts of foreign firms coming year and providing services for the whole
:11:11. > :11:14.of the EU but we have already seen huge attempts by the French and
:11:15. > :11:17.others to try to get bits back from here by offering all sorts of
:11:18. > :11:22.incentives to firms to go and relocate in France, in Frankfurt and
:11:23. > :11:26.so on. I think that is not going to stop at all. We do need passporting,
:11:27. > :11:29.we do need to be part of the single market. The interesting thing for me
:11:30. > :11:33.is that the Treasury, if it is indeed Philip Hammond two pushes
:11:34. > :11:37.this, is the one department that has been incredibly good at negotiating
:11:38. > :11:41.deals for the UK, in the financial sector which other countries have
:11:42. > :11:44.not been able to do. I know you are quite optimistic about London but is
:11:45. > :11:50.there somewhere else in Europe that can begin to nibble away at London's
:11:51. > :11:55.leading financial services? Begin to nibble, yes but it is really task.
:11:56. > :11:59.London has an incredibly strong concentration of talent. It has a
:12:00. > :12:04.more sensible regulatory system than most of Europe operates with. It is
:12:05. > :12:10.really very popular. It's a nice place to live. It is in the right
:12:11. > :12:14.time zone. It has lots going for it and it has lived before with having
:12:15. > :12:18.to operate outside other people's regulation to make money. The City
:12:19. > :12:22.got going in a big way in the 80s because it had different regulation
:12:23. > :12:30.to the USA. Difference can be good. Vicky Price, just more generally,
:12:31. > :12:34.the relevance or the weight put on a bespoke deal for Britain, a Brexit
:12:35. > :12:38.deal for Britain, you know, clearly, Theresa May is not going to lift off
:12:39. > :12:42.the shelf Norway or Switzerland or Singapore anything. She says we will
:12:43. > :12:47.negotiate our own. Is that a good strategy for an economy the size of
:12:48. > :12:50.ours as we approach it? I think it all depends on what the European
:12:51. > :12:53.thing, whether they think they are keeping the UK as close as they
:12:54. > :12:56.possibly can is a good thing for them or not. We have already seen
:12:57. > :13:00.that confidence in Europe has declined because of the Brexit
:13:01. > :13:03.threat. In a way, yes, they do need us. On the other hand, there's quite
:13:04. > :13:07.a lot of advantage they can have by taking beans over themselves. But I
:13:08. > :13:11.think we have to bear in mind that whatever -- taking things over
:13:12. > :13:14.themselves. But we have to bear in mind that whatever arrangement we
:13:15. > :13:17.have got is going to be less good than now and for me, negotiation
:13:18. > :13:20.will be the key. We all know how difficult it will be and how few
:13:21. > :13:25.people there are who can actually do it from the UK side and really know
:13:26. > :13:28.what the issues are in every aspect of this trading arrangement that we
:13:29. > :13:33.have with them, what we do with the rest of the world. It is just not
:13:34. > :13:36.going to be an easy thing to do. Varies one very interesting factor,
:13:37. > :13:40.the politics of this has led the government to say, "We have do have
:13:41. > :13:44.control of immigration but we want as much trade as we can get", this
:13:45. > :13:48.is the conflict. The one thing Theresa May has not talked about so
:13:49. > :13:53.much is the EU budget. I wonder if you would approve of an idea that
:13:54. > :13:56.said, "You guys in Europe have a problem because quite a bit of your
:13:57. > :14:01.money is not going to be paid over to you from the UK any more but we
:14:02. > :14:05.in the UK will bribe you, pay you some budget", I know it's hard to
:14:06. > :14:10.swallow, "We will keep on paying you for access to the single market on
:14:11. > :14:14.current terms"? Would that be a good idea? It's what Norway does, they
:14:15. > :14:17.put money into remain a member without actually getting anything
:14:18. > :14:21.worthwhile back so it is just a straight gift of cash for being in
:14:22. > :14:25.the single market. On some terms, all deals are worth doing. I hope
:14:26. > :14:28.that isn't one deal we will have to do. Thank you for joining us.
:14:29. > :14:32.The town of Harlow in Essex is in something of a state of shock
:14:33. > :14:34.after a attack on two Polish residents on Saturday night
:14:35. > :14:39.Arkadiusz Jozwik died from his injuries on Monday.
:14:40. > :14:41.Five 15-year-old boys and one 16-year-old boy,
:14:42. > :14:44.all from Harlow, were arrested on suspicion of murder.
:14:45. > :14:50.There are obvious worries in the Polish community in Harlow
:14:51. > :14:54.The Polish ambassador was in the town today,
:14:55. > :14:56.along with the local MP, to offer support.
:14:57. > :15:02.Our reporter John Sweeney went to hear the local concerns.
:15:03. > :15:05.The killing of Arek Jozwik, a 40-year-old Pole in Essex,
:15:06. > :15:08.was a particular tragedy, and cause for a wider, more general
:15:09. > :15:14.unease about the politics of identity in Britain today.
:15:15. > :15:17.Saturday night, just before midnight, 15 or 20 youths are here.
:15:18. > :15:21.Arek, the Polish man, goes to that pizza
:15:22. > :15:29.And that, people say, is the trigger for what happens next.
:15:30. > :15:32.The story ends with Arek down on the ground where those flowers
:15:33. > :15:43.For Poles in Britain, there is mounting anxiety
:15:44. > :15:46.Today, a very public visit from Warsaw's man in London.
:15:47. > :15:49.It is the beginning of my mission in the United Kingdom,
:15:50. > :15:53.and I'm really shocked and deeply concerned on this tragedy.
:15:54. > :15:59.To be honest, since Brexit, I think all the British people,
:16:00. > :16:01.the Brits here, they think they've got a green light
:16:02. > :16:14.You know, they feel very, kind of, secure to be racist.
:16:15. > :16:25.To swear, to say all kind of rude comments, to be sarcastic, to send
:16:26. > :16:31.sarcastic comments every day at work. I have been there, and it
:16:32. > :16:35.isn't nice. All the British people we spoke to told us they were
:16:36. > :16:40.horrified by the killing and had no problem with the Polish community.
:16:41. > :16:44.Conrad works in the cafe directly opposite the pizza takeaway. He
:16:45. > :17:07.spoke to us first in English, then in Polish.
:17:08. > :17:14.This is not an isolated experience. What happened here isn't only a
:17:15. > :17:21.story of the ugly mood in our country post Brexit. It is also a
:17:22. > :17:27.story of anti-social behaviour, of people at night being afraid to walk
:17:28. > :17:29.down a British high street. They terrorise all the shopkeepers,
:17:30. > :17:35.terrorise people just walking through. It's awful. Awful. They go
:17:36. > :17:40.into shops and knock things off shelves and walk back out.
:17:41. > :17:44.Shopkeepers are too scared to say anything. We have no problem with
:17:45. > :17:51.any foreign people. There's a problem with police not controlling
:17:52. > :17:56.a of youths, cos they have no power to do anything. It's too late.
:17:57. > :18:00.Someone has died, all because the police cannot control the situation.
:18:01. > :18:06.Why is there a group of youths hanging around here anyway? It was
:18:07. > :18:12.not supposed to be like this. 12 years ago today, then Prime Minister
:18:13. > :18:17.Tony Blair visited Harlow to laud the local success in tackling
:18:18. > :18:21.anti-social behaviour. I believe that Harlow is a kind and tolerant
:18:22. > :18:28.place to live. I'm proud of being the MP here. The vast majority of
:18:29. > :18:32.people are tolerant. We have lower levels of anti-social behaviour than
:18:33. > :18:37.other areas of Essex and the country. However, there are problems
:18:38. > :18:42.in certain areas. We need to find out what has happened. Today is a
:18:43. > :18:47.day for the family, the Polish community and the people of Harlow,
:18:48. > :18:52.but we need to find out the lessons that can be learned from it. In
:18:53. > :18:58.Harlow tonight, people United, but for the town's Polish community, the
:18:59. > :19:05.killing of one of their own makes emotions wall. I don't know if I can
:19:06. > :19:09.mention names... Nigel Farage, thank you for that, because you are part
:19:10. > :19:15.of this death. You have blood on your hands. Thanks to you, thanks to
:19:16. > :19:21.this decision, where ever you are, it is your call. Nigel Farage has
:19:22. > :19:26.always denied this allegation. As the search for clues and answers
:19:27. > :19:28.continues, the fear is that two poisons have come together to a
:19:29. > :19:31.lethal result. We first reported on the Zika
:19:32. > :19:34.virus back in January, and sad to say, it has been
:19:35. > :19:37.continuing its spread ever since. Back in January, it was
:19:38. > :19:40.present in 20 countries Over the last eight
:19:41. > :19:43.months, the virus has Now it's 70 counties
:19:44. > :19:50.from the US to South Korea. making it the the largest
:19:51. > :20:01.cluster in Asia. Earlier I spoke to Nyka Alexander
:20:02. > :20:04.from the World Health Organisation in Geneva, and asked her if there
:20:05. > :20:07.is any country in the world that has Although the virus has been around,
:20:08. > :20:13.first detected in the 1940s, it's only been causing these
:20:14. > :20:17.outbreaks, and certainly these outbreaks in the Americas, since
:20:18. > :20:21.last year, so it's relatively new. I would almost turn your question
:20:22. > :20:29.around and say, is there any place that we would expect not to have
:20:30. > :20:32.Zika, and that would be any country that doesn't have the mosquitoes
:20:33. > :20:34.that can spread Zika. If your country is one
:20:35. > :20:38.that's the right climate for those mosquitoes,
:20:39. > :20:40.quite possibly Zika will be Right, so it's in about
:20:41. > :20:46.70 countries now. How many will it settle in,
:20:47. > :20:50.do you think? If you look at a map of the world,
:20:51. > :20:57.it's pretty much a very fat band around the middle of the equator,
:20:58. > :21:00.so the warmer climates, In the Americas, for example,
:21:01. > :21:07.it's only continental Chile and Canada that don't really seem
:21:08. > :21:11.to have that mosquito, so that gives you a sense
:21:12. > :21:14.of how much of the world Is there any progress
:21:15. > :21:20.on the vaccine? It will be a couple of years before
:21:21. > :21:25.we see a vaccine widely available, but it's certainly something
:21:26. > :21:28.that WHO is working on, the research community
:21:29. > :21:29.is working on together, Is this disease going to become
:21:30. > :21:36.embedded and, if you like, a sort of chronic feature of life
:21:37. > :21:40.of the countries that it arrives in? Or do you see it as something that
:21:41. > :21:44.arrives, like Ebola, and is then eradicated
:21:45. > :21:47.in the course of a year, and those countries can go back
:21:48. > :21:49.to normal and stop So, from the discussions that
:21:50. > :21:56.I hear my technical colleagues having, it's not something
:21:57. > :21:59.that they are focusing on yet. It's not something
:22:00. > :22:01.they are discussing yet, because we are still
:22:02. > :22:04.at the beginning times, in a way, Over time, some populations
:22:05. > :22:11.will develop immunity. Enough people will have had it,
:22:12. > :22:14.they can't catch it again, and that will reduce how many people
:22:15. > :22:17.are vulnerable to it, and therefore, how many more people
:22:18. > :22:21.are having it and spreading it. Why are we concerned about Zika
:22:22. > :22:23.in the first place? Because, as you know,
:22:24. > :22:26.it's mild in most people. In fact, most people that have Zika
:22:27. > :22:29.won't even know that they've had it, won't have any symptoms,
:22:30. > :22:31.they'll be fine. A few people will develop
:22:32. > :22:32.symptoms which themselves The concern is really for pregnant
:22:33. > :22:38.women and the developing foetus, and what can happen
:22:39. > :22:42.to the developing foetus. And microcephaly, the phenomenon
:22:43. > :22:46.of the brain damage that is done by the Zika virus in some foetuses,
:22:47. > :22:51.do we have more information now than we had at the beginning
:22:52. > :22:54.of the year about what rate, what proportion of unborn children
:22:55. > :23:01.are actually affected by it? What they can see is that there
:23:02. > :23:04.are many more cases of microcephaly in populations that have Zika
:23:05. > :23:10.than in populations who don't. One thing recent that we have
:23:11. > :23:13.learned, and I would say it's been something we have learned
:23:14. > :23:16.more about this year, that it's not just microcephaly,
:23:17. > :23:19.that children might be born who seem fine, but then, on examination,
:23:20. > :23:22.it turns out they have problems with eyesight or hearing,
:23:23. > :23:24.some joint problems, So that's where some of the research
:23:25. > :23:31.has expanded our knowledge, and it underlines yet again how
:23:32. > :23:34.important it is for pregnant women to be aware of the dangers,
:23:35. > :23:37.and to know how to protect themselves, and to be given
:23:38. > :23:40.the services and choices, so they can make decisions
:23:41. > :23:42.about what risks they are willing to take, and how to protect
:23:43. > :23:50.themselves from that risk. Nyka Alexander, thanks
:23:51. > :23:52.for bringing us up to date The writer Ian McEwan had his first
:23:53. > :23:58.work published in 1975, which, by coincidence,
:23:59. > :24:00.was the year of first referendum on membership of the EU,
:24:01. > :24:02.or Common Market as it was. Things have not gone
:24:03. > :24:04.so well for Britain's relationship with the EU,
:24:05. > :24:07.which has upset Mr McEwan, who is, it's fair to say,
:24:08. > :24:10.is a strong EU supporter. But things have gone well for him
:24:11. > :24:13.since 1975. He has written 15 or more major
:24:14. > :24:16.novels - one of them won the Man Booker, many have been
:24:17. > :24:19.were turned into films, And his latest novel
:24:20. > :24:22.is released tomorrow. It is an interesting
:24:23. > :24:25.one called Nutshell. It brings echoes of Hamlet
:24:26. > :24:27.to a murderous tale set in But the most striking feature
:24:28. > :24:33.is that the narrator is a rather erudite unborn child,
:24:34. > :24:37.a womb-bound witness to the drama. I sat down with Mr McEwan this
:24:38. > :24:39.morning to talk about So, here I am,
:24:40. > :24:52.upside-down in a woman. Waiting and wondering who I'm
:24:53. > :25:02.in and what I'm in for. My eyes close nostalgically
:25:03. > :25:05.when I remember how I once drifted in my translucent body bag,
:25:06. > :25:09.floated dreamily in the bubble of my thoughts, through my private
:25:10. > :25:12.ocean in slow motion somersaults, colliding gently
:25:13. > :25:16.against the transparent Ian McEwan, the book has this
:25:17. > :25:25.interesting conceit of the narrator The first line drifted into my head
:25:26. > :25:31.during a long, boring meeting at which I was required to wear
:25:32. > :25:34.an expression of attentive joy. I sat on it for a couple of months
:25:35. > :25:41.and then decided I knew exactly In the meantime, I'd been
:25:42. > :25:45.reading Hamlet again. And the two fused before
:25:46. > :25:50.I knew what I was doing. Having a foetus is actually very
:25:51. > :25:55.restrictive in a way. He has to listen very carefully
:25:56. > :25:59.to what is going on. But he can get into the most private
:26:00. > :26:01.situations. He hears all the pillow
:26:02. > :26:03.talk, of course. He sees his mother having an affair
:26:04. > :26:08.with his uncle from a very... I was going to say privileged,
:26:09. > :26:11.rather less privileged point of view When the book goes to the States,
:26:12. > :26:16.obviously, the issue of unborn children in America
:26:17. > :26:18.is a very hot issue, I mean, a Wall Street journalist
:26:19. > :26:26.says, "This is clearly I had to ask him to unwrap
:26:27. > :26:30.the question for me because I didn't understand
:26:31. > :26:32.what he was talking about. So we shouldn't
:26:33. > :26:33.infer anything That didn't even cross my mind
:26:34. > :26:38.when I was writing it. Anyway, he gets born,
:26:39. > :26:40.like many foetuses do. But in the States, opinions come
:26:41. > :26:47.in packages, squadrons even. Brexit, though, I know,
:26:48. > :26:50.wounded you deeply. You felt very strongly,
:26:51. > :26:53.very bad after the referendum and you have written about in many
:26:54. > :26:57.ways you hoped it was just a I still think it might not happen,
:26:58. > :27:05.or that it's impossible to happen. That the triad of Fox,
:27:06. > :27:08.Davis and Johnson will come back with a deal that is simply not
:27:09. > :27:12.acceptable to the Brexiters. We might be in something
:27:13. > :27:17.of a recession and the mood I asked to live in a
:27:18. > :27:22.parliamentary democracy. I don't want to be
:27:23. > :27:24.ruled by plebiscites. I think that running this matter
:27:25. > :27:29.on a small majority when it impacts on every corner of our constitution,
:27:30. > :27:36.not only our laws but our science and the whole sense of where,
:27:37. > :27:39.who we are in the world, And I think David Cameron will have
:27:40. > :27:45.to sit with an awkward I wonder because you can point quite
:27:46. > :27:51.a lot of fingers of blame from your point of view,
:27:52. > :27:53.I would have thought. Yeah, I suppose blame is hardly
:27:54. > :27:55.worth bothering with now. I think we made a mistake,
:27:56. > :28:01.we who sit around about these things, in not saying,
:28:02. > :28:03."What is the status Apparently, it was advisory,
:28:04. > :28:09.unlike the AV referendum, If we'd gone into this referendum
:28:10. > :28:14.all telling each other, "This is only advisory
:28:15. > :28:16.and Parliament will take a decision", we might have been
:28:17. > :28:19.in a different place by now and Parliament would be ready
:28:20. > :28:21.to make its view known. A number of people on that side
:28:22. > :28:27.say he did not pull... I don't want to be ruled
:28:28. > :28:32.by plebiscites and I don't I just wish the Labour Party
:28:33. > :28:38.would get themselves sorted out, that the Parliamentary Labour Party
:28:39. > :28:40.would find a way of working with Corbyn or whoever
:28:41. > :28:44.is going to be in front. We urgently need another voice
:28:45. > :28:50.in Parliament and we don't have one. And now we are giving
:28:51. > :28:54.the government absolute free rein. They conduct, they are in control
:28:55. > :28:58.of the argument. Do you blame yourself
:28:59. > :29:03.and your class? Maybe it's my class,
:29:04. > :29:05.that metropolitan group, who were very easy targets
:29:06. > :29:10.for the Brexit side of the campaign? People who, if you like,
:29:11. > :29:15.seem to be rather comfortable, live rather well, and have a rather
:29:16. > :29:19.disconnected life from other If you offer a referendum,
:29:20. > :29:27.you ask for a bloody nose, If you're not doing well
:29:28. > :29:36.by the status quo, why not vote In one interview, I think
:29:37. > :29:43.you are quoted as saying, "What it is like to be a manual
:29:44. > :29:45.labourer just doesn't I wonder whether that really
:29:46. > :29:51.is the problem in this country, that we were two
:29:52. > :29:54.cultures, two societies. You don't get the other lot,
:29:55. > :29:57.they don't get you. You have to understand the context
:29:58. > :30:01.in which I say this... I was the first to go to university,
:30:02. > :30:08.the first to even stay I'm constantly being asked questions
:30:09. > :30:19.that no one asks Julian Barnes or James Fenton, why don't I have
:30:20. > :30:22.more labourers and JCB drivers Well, I could have
:30:23. > :30:25.but I don't, you know, You can only judge a novelist
:30:26. > :30:29.by what he or she does, "What are you doing out
:30:30. > :30:39.of your class? Why aren't you writing
:30:40. > :30:44.about your own class? I might well write
:30:45. > :30:49.about manual labour. I was a dustman for Camden Council
:30:50. > :30:51.for six months. I was free in that I went
:30:52. > :30:55.to a wonderful state grammar school, full of working class kids
:30:56. > :30:58.from central London. I feel very easy in the class
:30:59. > :31:02.system. So I think it's the problem
:31:03. > :31:06.of my interviewers. The interviewers are constantly
:31:07. > :31:08.boxing you in. Interesting, the narrator
:31:09. > :31:12.in the book... We've established that the narrator
:31:13. > :31:19.speaks for you some of the time. For example, I love
:31:20. > :31:26.a New Zealand sauvignon blanc. He will only drink
:31:27. > :31:36.the French variety. I like to share a glass
:31:37. > :31:38.with my mother. You may never have experienced,
:31:39. > :31:42.or you will have forgotten, a good burgundy, her favourite,
:31:43. > :31:46.or a good sancerre, also her favourite, decanted
:31:47. > :31:50.through a healthy placenta. Even before the wine arrives,
:31:51. > :31:56.tonight, her Jean Max Roger sancerre, at the sound of a drawn
:31:57. > :32:00.cork, I feel it on my face I know that alcohol will
:32:01. > :32:06.lower my intelligence. As you get older, do you find it
:32:07. > :32:15.hard not to become a bit of a curmudgeon about
:32:16. > :32:17.the state of the world, the decline of the West,
:32:18. > :32:20.what everyone else is doing? No, the older I get,
:32:21. > :32:24.and the closer it comes to the point at which I vanish,
:32:25. > :32:27.the more I want the It was in my youth when I had just
:32:28. > :32:35.two pairs of jeans and three T-shirts and paid ?3 a week
:32:36. > :32:38.for a rented flat in Stockwell that in a way, I could allow
:32:39. > :32:43.the full rein of pessimism. Nuclear war, bring it on,
:32:44. > :32:46.it will be so exciting. I even started a novel on that
:32:47. > :32:50.very same theme. Based on Defoe's Journal
:32:51. > :32:55.Of The Plague Year. No, I give my foetus a double
:32:56. > :33:00.account of the world. Nuclear exchange, climate change,
:33:01. > :33:05.all the things that make an intellectual pessimistic,
:33:06. > :33:09.but then let him run Hundreds of millions of people taken
:33:10. > :33:13.out of poverty, more people living longer,
:33:14. > :33:17.unbelievable access to information, a golden age of
:33:18. > :33:19.scientific discovery. We know more about the cosmos,
:33:20. > :33:22.more about the human cell, We live in amazing times,
:33:23. > :33:29.which makes it all the It was 350 years ago
:33:30. > :33:40.that the Great Fire It ignited late on 2nd September,
:33:41. > :33:48.1666 and continued for several days. Now it actually killed remarkably
:33:49. > :33:53.few people, perhaps only six, but it destroyed swathes of buildings,
:33:54. > :33:55.much of the old city, There's lots to say about it and how
:33:56. > :34:02.the initial reaction was to blame the French and Dutch,
:34:03. > :34:05.but one historian has been looking at the buildings that were lost,
:34:06. > :34:08.the sights that tourists might be gazing upon today,
:34:09. > :34:11.had the fire not got to them first. Matthew Green wrote London:
:34:12. > :34:22.A Travel Guide Through Time Good evening. You're going to take
:34:23. > :34:28.us through some pictures of one or two of these lost buildings. Let's
:34:29. > :34:31.have a look at the first. Bridewell Palace, one of many imposing
:34:32. > :34:35.riverside structures, as you can see, rather rambling brick palace,
:34:36. > :34:40.set around a number of courtyards with its own gardens and Private
:34:41. > :34:45.wharf. This built between 1550 and 1520 and it was one of Henry VIII's
:34:46. > :34:48.favourite palaces and we think he had his final, rather quarrelsome
:34:49. > :34:54.supper with Catherine of Aragon there. Made of? Brick which was a
:34:55. > :34:57.sign of status at the time when most of the houses were lurching, timber
:34:58. > :35:01.framed buildings. It was on the bank of the Fleet River and on the third
:35:02. > :35:05.day of the fire it was hoped the river would act as a fire break but
:35:06. > :35:13.instead, the fire merely vaulted across and decimated the palace.
:35:14. > :35:16.Let's have a look at another one. This is what I would describe as the
:35:17. > :35:19.marvel of medieval London, Gothic St Paul's Cathedral, a remorselessly
:35:20. > :35:23.Gothic structure, very different to Sir Christopher Wren's neoclassical
:35:24. > :35:27.successor, all flying buttresses and pointed parrots, crawling with
:35:28. > :35:29.gargoyles and the most impressive feature was originally the
:35:30. > :35:35.monumental lead and timber spire which rose to 489 feet. You would
:35:36. > :35:39.not get anything as high in London again until 1964 but it was hit by
:35:40. > :35:44.lightning in 1561 and on the eve of the fire, it looked like a bazaar
:35:45. > :35:49.inside, it was the most popular public space. On the same site as
:35:50. > :35:52.the existing church? Yes. An interesting feature is that these
:35:53. > :35:56.buildings were lost to the fire. If they had not been, they may have
:35:57. > :35:59.been lost anyway because there are plenty of other things that could
:36:00. > :36:04.have destroyed them white human action. We have one to demonstrate
:36:05. > :36:08.that. The Victorians had an obsession with knocking down
:36:09. > :36:16.beautiful, antiquated buildings. Looking at Nonesuch house, perhaps
:36:17. > :36:20.my favourite. This is fabulous. It is wildly eccentric, meticulously
:36:21. > :36:23.carved, gaudily painted. This was the marvel of London bridge,
:36:24. > :36:26.straddling both sides of the street, bulging over the swirling River
:36:27. > :36:35.Thames and it is an architectural mongrel. There was nothing like it.
:36:36. > :36:41.When did it come down? Not until the 1770s, after all of the other houses
:36:42. > :36:44.on the bridge were taken. Right over the Thames, these days, you could
:36:45. > :36:48.not build it because it would obstruct the views of Saint Pauls
:36:49. > :36:55.and someone would say you can't. Exactly and what a shame because it
:36:56. > :37:00.is such a crazy building. That is one we miss. How many buildings
:37:01. > :37:05.predating the fire are left in London? You won't find more than 18,
:37:06. > :37:09.in the actual catchment area of the fire itself, really no more landmark
:37:10. > :37:13.buildings apart from the Tower of London and the Guildhall, who facade
:37:14. > :37:17.dates from the 14 30s. Outside that zone, you find the Middle Temple
:37:18. > :37:21.Hall, stable in in Hoban and one or two others but essentially, as
:37:22. > :37:29.Johnny Flynn said after the blaze, London was and is no more. -- John
:37:30. > :37:36.Eva Lind. The streetscape was a very interesting feature of the city of I
:37:37. > :37:41.bought a yes and much of that is preserved because gritter Wren and
:37:42. > :37:44.others had visions an Italian aid -- Sir Christopher Wren and others had
:37:45. > :37:47.visions of an Italianate city but others came back as they wanted to
:37:48. > :37:50.do and started rebuilding it and many of the street are still
:37:51. > :37:55.labyrinth in even though the wooden buildings have long since vanished.
:37:56. > :37:58.They still adhere to the old topographical hotspot that people
:37:59. > :37:59.knew and loved and feared as medieval London. Thank you for
:38:00. > :38:00.joining us. That's just about it tonight,
:38:01. > :38:03.but let's end on the elephant. Prior to the arrival of Europeans,
:38:04. > :38:08.scientists think that Africa may have been home to as many
:38:09. > :38:10.as 20 million of them. By 1979, that number
:38:11. > :38:12.was just 1.3 million. And the Great Elephant Census
:38:13. > :38:16.released today found that in just the last seven years,
:38:17. > :38:20.30% of Africa's elephants have disappeared, lost to poachers
:38:21. > :38:21.serving an insatiable It would be a pity if it we only had
:38:22. > :38:28.pictures to remember